Forum Post: Sadly, they have already taken over OWS
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 17, 2011, 3:25 p.m. EST by Krankie
(140)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
How do you change a system where a small number control the money, industry (and thereby jobs), the police, and army, and the media? The ONLY way, as witnessed by the Arab spring uprisings, is to win over the majority of the population to your cause.
As much as I passionately agree with the issues raised by the OWS movement, a bunch of dirty-looking hippies taking part in running battles with the police and declaring themselves to be anti-capitalist will NEVER win the support of the majority of Americans. If the OWS "leaders" truly wanted to bring about change, they would get the movement to take actions that would force average Americans to face up to what is being done to them. Instead, they are just reinforcing the media image that OWS is just a bunch of dirty dropout druggies that have no respect for the law or public or private property.
I don't see how it is possible to draw any conclusion other than that the leadership has been infiltrated and is pandering to the understandable desire of people to protect, but doing so in a manner than ensures that OWS will never develop into a mainstream movement.
I truly have lost all hope for our future. When OWS started, I thought that maybe we DO have the power to change things, but I should have known better. What a sad sad time this is for humanity....
If you'll pardon the technical term... B U L L S H I T
I would trust "a bunch of dirty-looking hippies" over the impeccable SUIT-AND-TIE MAFIA any day!!!
Tiouaise, I have nothing but respect (and a little envy) for the dirty-looking hippies of which I speak. I think that 99% of the people that are actively supporting the movement have nothing but the purest of intentions. My problem is not with those people. My problem is with the people that are leading the movement in obscurity, precisely where the 1% want it to be. I understand frustration, but we need to be smarter than those we oppose - and behaving in a manner than alienates the people whose support we need is NOT being smarter than them. Does the picture of Steve Forbes, John Corzine, et all laughing their asses off over how this movement was its own undoing not frustrate you? America is being killed by short-termism - do we want to make the same mistake? Do we want instant gratification, or do we want to take back our country?
You can keep making these kinds of rational, reasoned arguments till you're blue in the face around here...
He is right though. It isn't about who people on this board trust, it is about the American public. A new poll just released today shows that 29% of Americans support OWS. You can't start a revolution with 29% of the population supporting you, especially since that number is going down (it was 33% last week).
The American Revolution had about 30% support of the colonies when they fought the crown.
Source? It must have increased as the war went on.
I don't feel like finding it. I don't think there was ever overwhelming support. We wouldn't have even won the damn thing without the French.
I think the 99% contains both dirty looking hippies AND suit-and-tie-wearers. I'm more inclusive than you, tiouaise. Are you going to call me names again?
Your observation is of course correct, "me2". But I think that even though you are a troll and have an underdeveloped sense of humor, you understand very well what I was trying to say...
I would only venture to add that fashion is BY DEFINITION something that CHANGES all the time. And I say the suit-and-tie constitute a ridiculous and uncomfortable way to dress and should go the way of the 19th-century "torture-corsets ASAP... But if you insist on keeping your corset, that is YOUR problem, not mine!
And that is your problem. I trust neither.
But isn't it interesting how the WORST CRIMINALS of today are usually the impeccably dresssed SUIT-AND-TIE MAFIA?
Worst criminals? Worse than murderers? Are pedophiles dressed in suits and ties? Dirtbag corporations and government are worse than those?
YES!!!!
Dirtbag corporations and government ARE most definitely worse than murderers and pedophiles.
How many murderers or pedophiles do you know who are reponsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths as is the case for some of our presidents and CEOs???
Adolf Hitler was always dressed to the nines.... but he is reponsible for 60 million deaths. Never trust a guy who is TOO NEATLY dressed.... and I'm only half-joking here. Personally, I think the suit-and-tie are uncomfortable anyway and should go the way of the 19th-century "torture-corsets...
Lots of people have to dress nicely and a bit formally for work, and technically they are very much part of the 99%. None of them fit into your little paradise though, do they, tiouaise?
Fashion is BY DEFINITION something that changes all the time. And I say the suit-and-tie constitute a ridiculous and uncomfortable way to dress and should go ASAP the way of the 19th-century "torture-corsets... But if you insist on standing in the way of progess, that is YOUR problem, not mine!
See even we can agree on something.
Suits are so comfy. no idea what youre talking about.
Well STAY in your suit if it feels comfy to you. I'm just saying that fashion-wise it's definitely on the way out. The turtle neck and sweater are quickly gaining ground, even in conservative circles. VERY FEW men enjoy wearing a tie - I was going to say a noose! - around their neck.
Just look at the NUMBER of Americans who have replaced their stiff SHOES with comfy SNEAKERS... even while dressing quite formally. Don't tell me you haven't noticed that!!!
Personally I haven't worn a TIE in the last 15 years - not even at funerals. "Free at last ! Free at last!" I actually BOYCOTT the suit-and-tie and encourage y'all to join me in BOYCOTTING AT LEAST THE STUPID TIE. It would be a beginning.
I see. You might have something there.
The OWS has been a dissapointment.
I thought they'd try to appeal to the 99/100 Americans who they say they represent. Instead, they look down on people who have different ideas, who view the problem as bigger than they think.
Absolutely correct... now. But it wasn't like that at the beginning. Something has changed, something big and drastic.
Who in the world do you think started the movement? Basically a bunch of declasse anarchist influenced young intellectuals, who are undoubtedly the very people you characterize as "dirty looking hippies" (and who wouldn't look dirty after two months without regular showers or bathroom facilities--the occupants of Tahrir Square certainly did--as for that matter did the Polish Workers at the Lenin Shipyard in Gdansk in 1980). These dirty hippies, as you put it, were not only in the movement from the beginning--far from taking it over, they started it and it has resonated with millions of people far beyond their limited circle.
And, BTW, there is no formal or defined "leadership." Wanna join? Sazam--you're a leader. Stop kvetching and organize!
The whole point of OWS is decentralization, people can take part in whatever ways they feel most positive. You know the bank transfer day was started by someone outside of ows and got support from inside and outside the movement. If you want to start actions and clearly state you seek justice but are not affiliated with ows, if those actions are peaceful and useful they will likely gain support from wherever you muster it and from supporters of ows. If you think starting call in campaigns or letter writing campaigns to congress is a better way, or have other ideas in mind, then stop complaining and get off your butt and do some good, rather than nitpicking how those who have actually tried to do something aren't doing it right. Or gather the facts of the wrongs YOU see as most vital and that should be focused on, and start doing your part to educate and inform. Start a boycott that you see as better targeted and not one that will inconvenience anyone.
The point is, there is enough need to change things that if anyone who feels things are wrong wants to eat away at the edifice from their own little corner, then DO IT. Shit do it in the name of showing ows up, or do it simply because your principles demand that you not simply give up and just stand by while we move into what you think is a sad time for humanity just because you think the people refusing to stand by and trying SOMETHING at least are amateurs.
But if people who haven't directly had any real role model for EFFECTIVE political activism stumble into a few pitfalls on the way, but generally do incredibly well for a group who has logged more hours in consecutive protest and spread more awareness of the issues than any other citizens in my lifetime, if they haven't perfected their methods in 2 mere months, we should all give up, ows and the rest, and just pack it in? No that's more of the attitude that got us to this point, I'll put my money on the people doing their imperfect best to stand up for their principles, thanks.
Here r my thoughts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abMLNszCKEA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
OWS failed because it didn't have the courage to find a leader. The fact is the radicals and nuts of this movement far outnumber the moderates and the sane. In your hearts your movement hoped and prayed a leader would emerge, and thee has not. That being the case the nuts are now your loudest voice because they want our demise more than you want our success!
EXACTLY. OWS has become self-marginalizing and self-destructive, but there is an incredibly strong groupthink culture going on. It is a shame.
The OWS movement, in my opinion represents closer to the 1% than the 99%. Please note, I do not believe that they only represent 1%, but they are far closer to representing that # than the amount the claim to. They fail to acknowledge that the economy is in the crapper and the rest of the world, on the whole is doing far worse than we are. Further, they fail to realize that despite the massive financial difficulties facing this country right now, the Obama administration has done wonders to help the underserved in this nation in the form of health care reform and bail outs which have saved numbers of jobs.
I celebrated when democratic revolutions took place in North Africa this spring. Part of it was selfishly motivated, as I am a Jew, believing that regime changes in these states would lead to better relations with Israel. But, more than anything else I celebrated because the vast vast vast vast majority of people in several nations realized that they were being subjugated, and they were right to think that. The OWS movement is the complete opposite. And Krankie, you pointed that out. These guys are, on the whole, a bunch of formerly entitled kids whose parents cut them off and then felt the need to kick and scream. I would be far more sympathetic to a tent camp of homeless individuals doing the same thing in unison.
Long and short, get off your rears. Trust me, five years ago I was no better off than any of you. I worked more than one job. I had health insurance concerns. I had little familial support. And I succeeded. Hard to feel sympathy for a group of individuals complaining about something that is able to overcome. Start occupying places when things similar to the events that occurred in Bosnia begin to happen.
It is quite possible that this whole movement has been catalysed by use of "puppet mastery". With no leader, it seems very suspicious. I see a ploy to pool the rebel element in one place, distort their intentions, provoke them into violence, destroy them, accuse them insighting anarchy and and blame them for their own demise. Crushed spirits, not to rise again for another 50 years. Remember flower power? Don't be duped people. We need rational, calculated action. A reformation.
It certainly seems to be headed in that direction... and i think all we can do is watch it unfold. You try to make reasonable comments on here pleading for rational behavior and thought and you get dubbed a troll and vilified.
The problem with your idea is that the majority does not support your cause and hopefully never will.
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Image is everything. I live in Dallas, and this morning on the ABC affiliate morning news program, they showed what the Occupy Dallas encampment left behind, a large park turned into a dumpster. The correspondent had his cameraman pan slowly from right to left showing all the tents and garbage strewn everywhere. Needless to say, it was not a flattering report on the occupiers. Another nail in the coffin.
Sadly, you are correct. Can you picture the boys down at the CEO country club all smirking into their snifters of brandy as they watch that on the TV? Does that not infuriate you? Because it sickens me. We came this close, and now it is all slipping away between our fingers...
It is all slipping away because the anger is not being channeled in a constructive, purposeful way. Look at how much chatter and news stories focus on everything EXCEPT what the supposed purpose of the protest is. It's all about police beatdowns, making viral videos, and obstructing anything and everything they can, thinking that if they just go into another bank, shut down another street, or get in another cop's face, that the 1% are just going to crumble. Unfortunately, they're not going to listen. They've got too many indians and not enough chiefs.
That is right and today's actions have played right into that. This movement had the hope of dignity when it started. It was inspiring. I am bitter and angry that that hope is lost.
having a leader is not a bad thing either...
Ditto! This protest has ruined any hope. Poor planning and ignorant people ... Thanks OWS people for ruining our hope ... Time to go home ... game is over.
And kudos to Blankfein and company for outsmarting us, once again. I don't like being a loser, but at least I can be a good loser and acknowledge a smarter opponent. Doesn't make me feel any less despondent however...
Karen you surprise me with this statement... ruining hope... would Lasher think of it that way?
All kidding aside, those of us who did have some kind of hope in this cannot forget the sentiment that has been stirred, and we can each choose to affect change in a meaningful way to our own means as well. I like to say by getting information out about local candidates who reflect our needs and galvanizing election results that displace incumbents who are not representing their constituent's interests, by educating others (young and old) about civic responsibilities, and by focusing on equilateral paradigm shift... which in turn may require us to re-examine facets of our lives that help fan the fire of this "corporate greed" in the first place...i.e. shopping for numerous low cost consumer products that are most likely low cost because they exploit people in third world countries who don't have labor standards like ours, vs fewer higher cost items that are manufactured under humane or fair trade practices that help fuel our economy.
There ARE no leaders idiot: that;s why it can't be shut down. The only way they can shut down the movement is of they jail EVERY person demonstrating on the street and they don't have enough JAILS for that... unless they begin herding the masses on the street into concentration camps, and THAT will expose them for what they are: fascist Nazi thugs paid to keep the 1% in power
So, if there are no leaders, who set up this Web site? And who organized a mechanism to accept online donations? And who is now moderating the forum? I think you are a little naive if you honestly think that there are not people that are influencing the actions that OWS is taking. And for the "fascist Nazi thugs" that you mention - most of those are ordinary people like most of us, doing a job, trying to keep their homes and look after their families - and if they don't follow their orders, they will not be able to do that. Now I am sure there ARE some of them that hate the moment, but your fighting with them only gives them an excuse to abuse you. It is much harder to be mean to someone that gave you half their lunch and just swapped stories about their children's first day at school. Put yourself in their shoes - is it not easier to be nice to someone that is nice to you? One of the secrets to the success of #EGYPT was that they won the police over to their side. Calling them fascist thugs is probably not the smartest way to achieve that.
The reason there is a web site and a soup kitchen and a cleanup crew in Liberty Square is because people join together in cooperative groups called COMMUNITIES. Every hear of something called a COMMUNITY? They used to exist before you were born. Wal Mart destroyed middle American mall town communities. TV destroyed family communities, Big business destroyed small business communities. Long ago: the industrial revolution destroyed the cottage industry communities. Capitalism has destroyed all human communities ever since it was invented for 100's of years. Now you're living in a non-communal mass of millions of isolated alienated lonely terrorized brainwashed idiots because of it, and because all communal organizations and traditions have been destroyed, stripped of all their power, cut up, and replaced with capitalist drugs and drug machines called free entertainment and free distraction: you haven't the faintest fucking clue what a community is and what it an do and how it works.
let me enlighten you. A community is when people treat each other as EQUALS with no bosses or leaders and when they all AGREE that something needs to be done they do it by COOPERATING WITH EACH OTHER... ever hear of cooperation? It happens every time you go into a store and AGREE TO BE ROBBED OF YOUR MONEY, while the owner agrees to ROB YOU BLIND and get filthy rich while you get poorer. That is the level of intelligence you have right now. That is the ONLY and I mean the ONLY cooperation you practice anymore in your life as a COMMUNAL LIFESTYLE, a COMMUNAL WAY OF LIVING... Unfortunately all you numbskulls are doing thjis NOT as a community but as spoiled fat asses, as alienated lonely isolated powerless brainwashed robots... thinking to yo9urself" "such a deal!" I paid 5 dollars for tomatoes that some Mexican was paid only one CENT to pick! I won't think about the 4.99 where I was ROBBED of my money, NOOOO... I'll pretend I'm not being ROBBED OF MY MONEY!
well" a small 1% of you Americans... 1,000 % MORE intelligent than you imbeciles have educated themselves and found out the hidden fraud and swindles and legalized robbery SYSTEM they're living in and they want the wmney that was robbed from them BACK. They're not going to get it... but BUT: in the process of educating themselves, they also got together as individuals with NO LEADERS: understand? They're proving that human beings can do things WITHOUT HAVING ANY AUTHORITY FIGURES OVER THEM. THAT is what you fucking sheep will NEVER understand because the only thing you understand is FEAR OF THE POLICE and being timid little scared SHEEP.
Wow, you are getting very upset with me - could it be that I touched on a raw nerve?
You know absolutely nothing about me, yet you immediately start calling me names. I said that I support the movement, and you call me an imbecile. I said that I want the movement to achieve something, and you call me "fucking sheep". Well, if that is your idea of community, I am glad that I don't have anything to do with it.
My issue was with the actions of the movement, not its stated objectives. Other than calling me names, you did not address any of my concerns - namely, that the current behavior of the moment is alienating the people you need rather than winning them over. And, quite frankly, your attitude is not going to win the movement any supporters either. Could it be that you are one of the 1%'s infiltrators? I can't see any other reason for your violent reaction to my comments.
@Krankie - Turak does seem to have some underlying issues, hehehe, very troubled indeed, doubt Gandhi would have been able to do much with a people of his calibre
Ah well, such is life. It would be a very boring world if we were all perfect. AND - having people like him around allows me to feel just a little better about myself. :)
Turak is a riot, he talks about peace and togetherness and community while spewing condescending venom, it's a brilliantly fun juxtaposition.
Your reply proves you are a fucking IDIOT. Did I say I was a part of the OW movement? Where did you get THAT assumption from? Out of your asshole?
Every time you open your mouth, you just prove what a classy guy you are. Rock on brother - it must drive you nuts when others won't sink to your level, does it? :-))
He does the same to me and others. I think he suffers from a combination of Teretts Syndrome and Arrested Development.
LOL! Thanks for giving me a laugh 53percenter.
I want to stay up all night hitting the 'like' buttons on Turak's posts. I suspect he is really Triumph, the Comic Insult Dog.
yeah treating people like equals... i dare say that the manner in which the ows crowd started looking down upon homeless people, ex-cons, and people who weren't a fervent to protest or cause mischief as they were is hardly treating people like equal. especially to the extent of being choosey about whom to serve "higher quality" [charitably donated] food to. that will always be a blemish on this movement no matter how much well meaning retraction was stated after the fact, so yea that whole thing about community and equality is a little tainted. but that never ever excuses the police from being belligerent. on an aside, communities frequently have leaders. its how tribes migrated through all manner of terrain and harsh climates throughout the history of earth. its how people form religious and faith based life styles. there are people who are quite happy to take direction. Weren't Susan B. Anthony, Dr. King, and Ghandi leaders? So i think your rant about communities is a little skewed.
Wron: you're an idiot, a sheep, a follower. The people in Liberty Square getting rid of freeloaders? HURRAH! This tells me they ARE practicing what they preach and they are treating everyone as their equal. They are engaged in a li8fe-and-death struggle against the richest people on earth. Those people who try to profit from their efforts by sucking off them SHOULD be kicked out of Liberty Square. You obviously have never given a homeless person a meal or let them sleep in your house. I have and I know what kind of people these scum are. They are predatory beggars. The rob EACH OTHER every chance they get. They don't give a shit about ANYONE but themselves. Morally and ethically they are right up there with the top 1% of the richest billionaires in New York.
You still want leaders? Go follow Obama and Cheney to hell. You are an enemy of the OW movement. Nice to know. You've been recognized as the enemy and you've been tagged and labeled.
I'm soooo terrified. So what are you going to do, sit on my front lawn and ANNOY me to death? Christ on a cross, what EVER shall I dooooooo.
and for the record squatting in a fucking park is not a life and death struggle, so ease up on the hallucinogens.
And speaking of idiocy, what does the word "Wron" mean. I've never seen that word in my life, you know, since I'm an idiot and all.
Read this and see if you can make an intelligent reply:
you're an idiot, a sheep, a follower. The people in Liberty Square getting rid of freeloaders? HURRAH! This tells me they ARE practicing what they preach and they are treating everyone as their equal. They are engaged in a li8fe-and-death struggle against the richest people on earth. Those people who try to profit from their efforts by sucking off them SHOULD be kicked out of Liberty Square. You obviously have never given a homeless person a meal or let them sleep in your house. I have and I know what kind of people these scum are. They are predatory beggars. The rob EACH OTHER every chance they get. They don't give a shit about ANYONE but themselves. Morally and ethically they are right up there with the top 1% of the richest billionaires in New York.
You still want leaders? Go follow Obama and Cheney to hell. You are an enemy of the OW movement. Nice to know. You've been recognized as the enemy and you've been tagged and labeled
No leaders? Explain this.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0PlElVWshk&feature=related
You are a useful idiot, soon to be discarded.
you're a freak A troll an asshole: get off this forum asshole
Did you click my link? I have more if you want to see them.
Get lost asshole: you're a saboteur and now you have been recognized and tagged and LABELED.
I'm not hiding my position, I'm just trying to fill you and others in on things you might not be aware of.
WoW! It gets better the more you follow Turak's Rants ... he sounds a lot like a certain militaristic individual who was just expelled from the African Nation Congress Youth League (ANCYL) called Julius Malema ... when a British journalist asked him how can he preach about the nationalization of mines and sharing wealth the the poor whilst staying in the lap of luxury in his R16 million mansion and supporting Mugage he called Mr Fisher a "bloody agent" a "bastard" and all those niceties.
You're a SABOTEUR: you're trying to DERAIL AND POISON the OW movement: you've been recognized as an ENEMY of the OW movement. Now FUCK OFF AND LEAVE
Um, no. Will you leave Wall St.?
I.m not on Wall steet you fucking ass: I'm in Canada and the Wall Street activists will KICK you OFF their forum since they have RECOGNIZED YOU ARE THE ENEMY. This is a PRIVATE forum: and they have every right and powerv to kick off ANYONE they want to: that means YOU.
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Do your parents know you are using their computer to swear at people that you don't even know? This is an open forum. Get used to it because "This is what democracy looks like!"
I am 64 years old you fucking spoiled shithole and if your parents EVER look up your log history and find that you have been acting as a paid saboteur of the OQW movement they will take away your computer PERIOD
This is NOT a democracy you fucking asshole: this is a PRIVATE FORUM and you have NO rights and NO privileges here whatsoever. Just run down the comments and see how many have been deleted; yours will be NEXT.
Yu are the ENEMY OF DEMOCRACY you jackass: you and all the other bottom feeders and lowlifes and scum who can't support themselves.
CAPS do NOT make your MESSAGE more EFFECTIVE
nor do insults
Yes it DOES. It separates trolls LIKE YOU from decent people who can understand English and are not emotionally affected by grammar and do not freak out when they realize that they are not in contact with another DROID/ZOMBIE fucking IMBECILE who also has nothing to say and is afraid of his shadow and is A PARANOID FUCKING FREAK
So that seems like an effective message to you? The only parts that rang true were the last three words.
Looks like I was the sucker, stepping into your meaningless game. For a second there, I forgot to be cynical, and thought you were sincere. I suppose I owe an apology to everyone else for feeding the troll.
Get this through your fucking brain: . Writing in Capital Letters is not an impolite form of communication. Advertising firms do it every time they put up an advert on magazines or billboards or TV shows. The number ONE way to separate assholes and imbeciles and armchair freaks from honest people is their emotional death deadness. ANYTHING that smacks of passion or human emotion you interpret as a threat to your existence as an emotionally DEAD android/robot that is emotionally DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD and has never felt a human feeling because your heart died before you were born.
This is the SICKNESS and how SICK you are. That is how inhuman and sick ALL of you are. YOU DON'T HAVE ANY HUMAN EMOTIONS. you fucking emotionally DEAD: and you perceive human beings who DO have human emotions as a 'threat' to your existence. Well you're correct. Human beings with emotions do not LIKE freaks like you. You are the ENEMY of all honesty and all courage. You are the great unwashed MASS of cowards and paranoid freaks who congregate on internet forums like flies in a garbage dump.
There's only ONE thing you freaks do on these forums: get insulted and RUN AWAY: get insulted AND RUN AWAY Get insulted and RUN AWAY get insulted and RUN AWAY... over and over and fucking over: thousands of shit stinking cowardly SNOBS ASSHOLES just like you have done the exact same thing you're doing right now using the same lying fucking excuse : get insulted AND RUN AWAY. Well you can join them all in the satisfaction that you have been HUMILIATED and DEFEATED in PUBLIC by someone who has HUMAN EMOTIONS, and writes in CAPITAL LETTERS... you don't like capital letters/ GO FUCK YOURSELF you fucking WIMP. Capital letters hurt your eyes too much? asshole? then DON'T LOOK AT THE LETTERS IF THEY HURT YOUR FUCKING EYES asshole. That's YOUR fucking problem, not MINE: understand?
Do you STAND for anything but lies and cowardice, asshole? NO YOU DO NOT. You stand for NOTHING because you do not stand up against ANYBODY or ANYTHING: all you fuckers do is RUN AWAY.
You are pathetic. Have a nice life, if you can figure out how.
Your life will be miserable because your life is ALREADY miserable. Any asshole who has nothing better to do but come onto internet forums and jack off with their pointless impotent meaningless crap is the most MISERABLE scum on earth.
Turak, please, don't be so hard on yourself.
scum like you who do nothing but sit on your ass are the first to be exterminated by both sides of this conflict