Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: S.1867. National Defense Authorization Act

Posted 10 years ago on Dec. 13, 2011, 12:30 a.m. EST by ramous (765) from Wabash, IN
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Im astonished that free-thinking educated minds would post panic driven SNOPES.com version videoblogs about this bill without having read it. At all. You have a mind, you have eyes, you can read. So read the bill.

There are two versions, the MOST recent version, after recommended re-wordings, has its full language here.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c112:2:./temp/~c112DPn2J3::

Its a long bill. If you want some small words to explain it....

Well, when the US goes to war, our military handles enemy combatants. This is pretty clear when we're fighting elsewhere like Afghanistan. Its Convenient when we're fighting somewhere else. But what happens if the enemy combatants come here? This bill takes care of that. Because the Geneva convention handles rights of enemies. US Civil rights don't and can't..they can only apply to US citizens.

So the bill says that any enemy combatants that come here to make war, will still get handled by the military. Just like the military handles them when they are NOT here. Like always. Cops don't handle war, the military does. So that's what the bill is doing, making sure the military handles enemy combatants who bring war here. Because it has gotten muddy recently with terrorists. The bill clarifies terrorists are war combatants and will be handled by the military.

And the one very important line in that whole bill? That IF you read it then you will know what you're talking about...well, just a moment...

Now, there's some wording that the SNOPES-spreading vloggers are counting on to panic you. Its the wording of the OLD version of the bill, the one that made this get out of hand. But they changed it, they redrafted it and added one line.

"Does Not Apply to US Citizens'. Says it right there.

Because US citizens get handled by the criminal justice system and the courts. Like always. And Enemies bringing war here are to get handled by the military.

But you'd actually have to read it to know this, instead of listening just to teenage panicking tweets. Its a long bill. But unless you read it, and unless you kept up and read the NEW version, instead of the version people panicked over, you wouldn't know. I dare you. Go read it. The New version. Here's the links to both versions.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:S.1867:

You have eyes. You have a brain. Read for yourself. Think for yourself. You can do it, I know you can.

93 Comments

93 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 5 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

There is one logical loophole - If you go against the establishment, protest, etc or the status quo if you will - If you disagree with the government, which is supposed to serve the people then it is an absolute. You can be labeled a terrorist. Once labeled by a fusion center, then you are an enemy, citizenship is irrelevant. You are either pro-government, or a terrorist. Nothing in between. You must first consult with those in law enforcement and military. If you aren't aware they have been trained to fire on American citizens. Timothy McVeigh was not a taliban, or Al Queda, but he was a citizen, and a terrorist. A criminal. This can be used against anyone who is deemed appropriate. It takes away our rights to truly control the government that is supposed to be of the people, by the people and for the people. Not as currently of/by/for the banks/corporations. We have lost the next battle.

[-] 1 points by MonetizingDiscontent (1257) 10 years ago

“The Feinstein Amendment 1031(e) is dangerously misleading,” writes John Wood of Change.org, http://www.change.org/petitions/stop-ndaa-section-1031-citizen-imprisonment-law-today ...which is running a petition to oppose the signing of the bill. “Don’t be fooled: In the text of 1031(e), “Nothing in this section shall be construed…”, the only word that matters is “construed” because the Supreme Court are the only ones with the power to construe the law. The Feinstein Amendment 1031(e) permits citizens to be imprisoned without evidence or a trial forever, if the Supreme Court does not EXPLICITLY repeal 1031.”

The Obama administration never had a problem with Section 1031 of the bill and indeed acted to ensure it applied to American citizens. Doubts over whether or not Obama would veto the bill only arose out of issues with Section 1032, which pertains to the military being required to take custody of individuals.

“Confusingly, Obama threatened a veto for 1032, but NOT 1031. 1032 is UNRELATED to imprisoning citizens without a trial. Obama has never suggested using a veto to stop Section 1031 citizen imprisonment,” writes Wood.


(((Video))) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0PdDGqK0S4

Section 1031 co-sponsor Sen. Carl Levin says that Obama was the one who called for the removal of language from the bill that would've protected American citizens from section 1031.


Indefinite Military Detention Of U.S. Citizens Is A Win For Terrorists, Former Admiral Says

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/12/indefinite-military-detention-former-admiral_n_1144121.html

-12/12/11-


The bill is confusing. As Wired noted on December 1st:

It’s confusing, because two different sections of the bill seem to contradict each other, but in the judgment of the University of Texas’ Robert Chesney — a nonpartisan authority on military detention — “U.S. citizens are included in the grant of detention authority.” http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/12/does-the-ndaa-authorize-detention-of-us-citizens/


[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

This has potential for abuse, and I think that is the thing we all need to focus on. Great work.

[Deleted]

[-] 2 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

It is stronger if we as humanity unite for the right reasons. I started going to the assemblies, and stopped. That is what we were supposed to do. Get the message out. These die hards are hanging on. OWS has been infiltrated and contaminated as a whole and the messages are being trampled and overshadowed. If we cannot see that the media is only showing the negative, then we are narrow minded and blinded. The bottom line the constitution states we have a right to assemble and protest. The "laws" that were "created" diffuse this right, and have caused the division. The police are narrow minded. Everything has become so compartmentalized. Think for yourself people and with your hearts. Everything starts with an idea. We created the tyranny through being afraid. Someone gets hurt so lets hurt back. NO, that is what keeps this snowball growing. Fear is what imprisons us all. You and I are the same if scrap what we have been taught, read between the lines and think for yourselves. How would you feel if your brother or sister were rounded up because they disagreed with the status quo? the government was allowed to grow and take control. It has been hijacked. Money is used to corrupt, and what we stand for gets crushed by those who hijacked the system. The "laws" are BS, we need to go back to the drawing board. Direct democracy is the only way out. I want a say on everything as do you. We do not have this, we have politicians that say these are your choices, and that's it. Instead we vote for a person that says they stand for us, and incrementally they get bought off. We only think we have a say and go back to sleep. I am not against anybody, I am against the greed and corruption. We must unite, bottom line. We are not free anymore. There are so many laws that we had no say in. The system has failed, the movie the MATRIX was to show us that we need to take back our freedom, not the freedom we think we have. Freedom to choose a tv program, a radio show, a product in the store, democrat/republican, liberal/conservative, black/white, doesn't matter. We are given the choices and programmed with opinions, and align to one side or an other. That is not freedom, that is being forced into a corner. Nothing more. What DO YOU BELIEVE? OWS in a way is like what the story of Jesus did. The only time he got angry was when he exposed the money changers at the temple. The corruption in the leaders. That is the message, and those fighting the establishment are terrorists or bad. That story was a warning, as we are at that point again. We need to see that the FED, government and bankers are the temple and the money changers if you will. Its happening again and for those who cannot see this as a pivotal point go back to sleep, someday you will wake up and wish you had done something. Some day many hundreds of years from now those that look back again will see this point in history as the same, yet again. We must not allow this evil to take hold in us. Let go of your differences people. The time has come.

[Deleted]

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

Hey I have no prejudice. Why do you? I guess I had too many beans for dinner, sorry about that. I am in Mass, so that makes me what you say.... OK, fine, but it is not BS. Streaming yes I agree. I am venting, so what? USA went bankrupt in 1933 and has been since. Fear controls the masses, no pun intended. We need to unite. The "story" is a representation of what is happening. The "money changers" and "temples" are references,nothing more. We put "our faith" in government and the greed/corruption took over yet again. We as humanity repeat the same mistakes over and over. It is not BS, it is truth. I am simply referencing how we make the same mistakes yet again. We were warned, and as a whole fell for the same thing, in disguise. The system needs an overhaul, you disagree with me? I am not sleeping in parks, etc, just doing my best to open some up to reality. If I vent and spew so what? I am free. You are biased, and calling me a masshole only shows that. I do not advocate violence. You appear to be trolling, which is fine you are free to do that. You must be in some level of denial. When it comes to what has happened I have been ahead of the curve to an extent. Simplesimon, I agree that the movement and the over-occupation, camping etc has gone overboard. I post on here , and wake people up. I am not standing in the cold, blocking traffic, relieving myself in public etc. I agree to an extent it has lost control and the message at the core has been contaminated. Please understand that I am not against you or them. Wait and see what awaits, I promise more rights will be violated. As for baloney sandwiches, they actually give McDonalds to the prisoners around here. Tasty MSG laden food so maybe thats why some are repeat offenders.

You are naive if you do not realize that the election system is a front. They are puppets, and never follow through on the national level. You agree with the foreign policy? How about fiscal policy? They hijacked the system and pad their pockets, OK with that? By the next election more damage will result. Outside this country we are a complete joke. We look to outsiders as Nazi Germany looked to us back then. I am not saying buy into everything, but do you approve of the BS laws and exec order they are passing? What say did you have at the ballot box? They lie to us over and over the system needs an overhaul. I am done ranting and venting for now. Have a good day simplesimon, I will go back to the TV and let the pied piper have his way....except I am not under his spell as most still are.....

[-] 1 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

the election system is a front...For the American people. We are getting what we voted for. Nothing more, nothing less.

I do not agree with current foreign policy. We need to be more aggressive, especially with Iran, Syria and Pakistan.

I do not agree with fiscal policy that puts us further and further in debt...TARP, bailouts, health care...that's what made us broke.

Outside the country people look to our President, who bows to kings and queens, and only asks for his drone back like a sand-covered wimp in the playground. Respect for our country starts when we have a leader that is willing to stand up for it. They may never like us, but the respect will be there. I can live with that.

I don't approve of any regulation that restricts free enterprise. Period.

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

I say lets stop meddling in other countries affairs.... It is this meddling that is pissing them off, and making them want to arm up - We create the fear, and they want weapons to defend. We create the sanctions, that cause them hardship and cause their people to get out of control. We drew the map in Israel, took it back from the Palestinians and gave it to Jewish. It was theirs at one time, yes but sorry about what Hitler did, lets go there and do what we want. This is why our country is hated, our leaders do not leave well enough alone. Here is another one for you, how about another super power rises up like China, and goes into Native American reservations and gives them weapons, etc to go against the government? To give them back their land?
Who is right and who is wrong I ask you? I do not approve of how my ancestors did what they did. I think if we were not interfered with back then (British armed the indians) and created the conflicts then. This has to stop. We need to stop this do as I say not as I do. We could have lived in harmony with the Indians, and I wish we did. It was GOLD that pushed us West. The British wanted it and turned us on each other to get it. There was no conflict with Indians until we were forced into it. Our ancestors did the very same thing Hitler did to the Jews. We need to rise above all of this crap, and unite under one common thing - humanity, and go from there. We don't need government and most laws , we need a body of simple control to regulate some things - nothing more.

[-] 1 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 10 years ago

No one hear is advocating violence. You might wanna do your research. This is a peaceful movement. If they are being attacked, what would you have them do? I'm sure you would defend yourself in the face of a threat. If not than you might be a coward. Just sayin'.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 10 years ago

So I guess that means it can not be the first. Oh no we are doomed! Simplesimon said there has never been a peaceful revolution. What? They didn't use to have cars or TV or the internet? Nawwwwww.

[-] 1 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

You know the answer. You are pinned. Now piss off.

[-] 1 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 10 years ago

Get back on target simplesemen. You like that? Semen? Yeah.... you like it.

[-] 1 points by guitarmywin (158) 10 years ago

YOU are part of OWS because of your involvement in the dialogue.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by guitarmywin (158) 10 years ago

Yes, that is why the protester was voted Time Person of the year.

[-] 1 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

I can understand the Arab Spring. What have you done?

Nothing.

[-] 1 points by guitarmywin (158) 10 years ago

The proper question is what will I do.

[-] 1 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

More of the same. Nothing.

[-] 1 points by guitarmywin (158) 10 years ago

Are you God?

[-] 1 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

Nope. Don't need to be. Your movement only pisses people off. Nothing more.

[-] 1 points by guitarmywin (158) 10 years ago

My movement1?1 Thanks for the great christmas gift! But, like I said before darling, it is ours.

[-] 1 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

You are welcome. You deserve your future, whatever that may be.

[-] 1 points by guitarmywin (158) 10 years ago

May it be a better one because of how we lived our lives.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 10 years ago

Simplesimon, I love your tenacity and honor you exhibit for your nation, but you really need to freshen up on your history. Sometimes organizing and voting are just not enough.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 10 years ago

Well, that is all good but what about my working class brothers who, when young, received felonies and are too strapped for cash to get their right to vote back. they, I believe, are the ones most fearful and voiceless in the new political climate. Money is not speech, voting is. I feel the pain of the voiceless, not the ones who can afford a lawyer.

[-] 1 points by divineright (664) 10 years ago

That is unfortunate. I don't necessarily think a felony at 18 years of age should keep one from voting the rest of their lives. We need to work on a system of rehabilitation rather than focusing almost all our effort on the punishment aspect of things.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 10 years ago

Amen!

[-] 1 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

I know history, and I know the future of this movment. It's not going to end well. They, and we, outnumber you. Always.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 10 years ago

in number you may be right, but in thought your numbers are dwindling. The workers will get their dignity or the owners will loose their profits. no one knows the future. Are you special in your telepathy?

[-] 1 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

Jesse, let me tell you something. Every time you interfere with people who are trying to make a living you will lose more support. Every time you, the the people on this forum, and the people at your silly general assembly meetings spew about revolution, plan disruptive and violent acts, and talk with a disjointed voice, you will get nowhere.

Your only plan is to disrupt, destroy, and disable. Your efforts are counterproductive, and you are also receiving attention from people who will look at you as a domestic terrorist organization over time.

It will not end well for you at all. Your perceived strength will be your downfall. Your message will be lost among the mayhem.

I've said it on a different thread; your only hope is through the ballot box. This other stuff you are doing is completely counterproductive. But like all other fiefdoms, you will ignore the people who surround you until you are overtaken.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 10 years ago

I don't advocate violence. Violence is a 20th century idea. America was just the last to know. Those that violently appose the status quo deserve what ever comes their way. Blocking a port is not violence. Now, their actions may not garnish respect by the comfortably upper middle, but they need to know there is a problem in the 'States.

[-] 1 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

Violence my friend, is all over the Middle East in the 21st century. You are incredibly stupid to think that.

And you didn't block any ports whatsoever. You blocked trucks; working people who you have now pissed off, and they aren't upper middle pal. The problem is corrected through the ballot box.

Try to enter a port, go through that gate, and see what waits for you; a disproportionite smack down.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 10 years ago

Violence begets violence; there lies the riddle of our age. The closes I've come to protest is holding sighs up in front of McCain's office and refused to use my writing skills to enrich the few. You need to stop lumping everyone that comes to this site in one box. I've lost my right to vote because I looked out after myself, only, when I was young and lost that right so I improvise. Now, I know you are going to say, "If you break the law you deserve what you get." In a simplistic sense you might be right. But that simplicity has a way of turning around and biting you in the back side.I don't know the stories of those that blocked the ports, but I know the grief that passes for justice these days so i stand in solidarity with them. I am antiGult and you need to respect the workers.

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

The violence in the Mid East was caused by our map re-drawing after WW2. The Muslims live oppressed under their rulers (Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Iran) and are pissed @ the west Us, UK (NATO/UN) they regulate sanction and control trade and world bank through International Monetary Fund. Their puppet rulers who we initially appoint (Saddam Hussein, Iraq) Current Iraq, Saudis live oppressed due to kings (they get oil, and are dictatorship) We caused the whole mess (not us per se, the puppet masters) Bottom line, if there was no oil, and their main exports were broccoli, bananas, wine and pineapples there would be no issues, wars etc. It would be a much better world if oil did not exist. There would be less population, and we would be balanced with nature by now and would have the alternative energies and things we never even thought of yet. We would all be getting along just fine. Maybe not 100%, but better than it is.

[-] 1 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

The violence in the middle east is caused by religion. That history goes a lot farther back than 1946.

You are approaching dumbass status when you attempt to redact the history of Islam.

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

What you are forgetting is that our "parent rulers" GB have been meddling in affairs of others way before they told us. Of course it is not in OUR history books. It is religion, that is a major factor - true. But not the only one. The first factor of division created by the rulers long ago. Religion has always been the one way to control us. Many in this nation have let go of some of these die hard principles. They have been kept in the dark for a long time. You need to visit some of the other facts, there has even been an atomic war thousands of years ago in that region - we had technology and blew ourselves back to the stone age once before.....The rabbit hole goes deep. Very deep. The history we are taught is summarized and narrow minded. There is a bigger picture. When we gave Israel back to Jewish, it pissed off the Palestinian Muslims. This spread through the mid-east, and fueled that chain reaction. The arabs were already moving to take advantage of the situation, Hitler's extermination and wars gave them the initial opportunity. There were issues and wars, but we stirred the hornets nest. We armed Israel, they fought off Egypt Jordan, etc. Look into the UN partition plan of Palestine, the 1948 mandates, etc. It has always been about religion, but GB controlled everything previously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

simplesimon, it sounds like you are one of the feds the way you stir things. ;) I do not approve of a lot that is going on, I went to some gatherings early on, and knew when enough was enough. I feel this will be the key to shutting this down. People will go to jail and have records, no doubt. I do not think it is that strong, it is an idea. The movement points out the corruption, as exists on wall street and in our own government. Done now lets move on. I vent on here and so do you. We are free to debate, for now. OWS is already flagged as a low level domestic terrorist group. What they will do is plant more garbage in the group, violence will break out and destroy the movement. Some type of false flag "attack", that leads to injuries/death. Then the public will be afraid to assemble/protest ever again. The government will capitalize on that fear, and the media - with the spin, will further push the public to support the government to take away more freedoms/rights until we have nothing left. It starts with an idea. I am sick of this "1984" big brother reality being pushed down on us. What say did I have? Obama was supposed to repeal the patriot act it is crap. I refuse to accept this, and no elected official can turn it back. They get in office and realize how entrenched thing are and just go with the flow. A line has to be drawn, and I do agree - a lot of this has gotten out of hand.

[-] 3 points by WorkerAntLyn (254) 10 years ago

Because we clearly need a NEW bill, in case we have to fight a war on our soil. Cuz, y'know, all those PREVIOUS times we fought wars on our soils was illegal I guess. Y'know, like the War of 1812 and such.

Yah, that belligerent act is still there. In other words - "I say you're a terrorist, I can do what I want cuz I'm the government."

Don't let this fancy post fool you folks. Don't just read this bill, read into other laws too. The government says you're belligerent - you're a terrorist. You're a terrorist, you're an enemy officer - you're an enemy officer - you aren't a citizen.

People have the right to be panicked over this bill. The wording is vague and prone to abuse. It doesn't matter if it doesn't happen NOW, it will happen in the FUTURE if we don't put an end to it.

[Deleted]

[-] 3 points by WorkerAntLyn (254) 10 years ago

Mr Webster:

Belligerent : inclined to or exhibiting assertiveness, hostility, or combativeness

Violence a : exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse.

The word they chose was belligerent. A lot of non-violent actions could be considered belligerent. Getting into someone's face and yelling at them is belligerent. It is not violent. It is not an attack. The wording of this law is a major issue. The lack of explanation of what constitutes a belligerent act leaves it open to abuse.

It's not just a matter of OWS. It's a matter for anyone who has ever protested against a law or an action by the government. Local or national. They are allowing themselves the freedom to declare someone an enemy without any act of violence, and without proof.

[-] -2 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

Now, why would anyone want to protest without proof, pray tell?

I'm not going to around and around with you about belligerence. We both know its definition and how it applies to combat and to countries involved in or siding with one country or another in war.

You can't slide away from this one. You and your people want to overthrow government.

[-] 3 points by WorkerAntLyn (254) 10 years ago

Only one use of the word belligerent is involved with combat, and it is not the common use of the word. There's no two sides to a violent act - a violent act is a violent act. Belligerent act? Multiple takes. Why choose the word with the multiple takes? Pretty much no reason unless there's intent to abuse.

Overthrow the government? LOL Most people I know just want the government to get with the program and do it's job right - which it hasn't been doing for awhile. I didn't realize demanding the government do it's job was "overthrowing" it. That's just hilarious.

I've read multiple posts with you, and had several conversations, and I can tell that you comprehend what's written, but choose to act like you don't. I'll remember not to bother replying to you in the future.

Thank-you for trolling.

[-] 0 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

Actually, I am bringing the argument to the extreme. If I am unable to do that then I argue normally. People are taking an extreme position on this bill and I will respond appropriately.

If you people protest with violence and collude to bring violent acts upon people or the government I'd say this bill applies to you.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 10 years ago

nobody cares what you say, you tote Obama's nads on your chin

[-] 1 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

You don't now who cares and who doesn't. You don't, but you are nothing, really, just like me.

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

This is true, we are all technically a drop in the bucket - in essence nothing.... Together we can fill the bucket, and be something.
You deal in absolutes, just like true dictators. As a dictator would say, you have a choice, here it is choose. If you offer the choices, little by little we choose and have no choices remaining. That is how the grand scheme was used, & took over and hijacked this country. They used our system against us. The banks and corporations run the show. The media delivers the propaganda. We at one time were free, then laws are created. They create an "issue" or problem if you will. Then comes a poll, or reaction. Then a solution is offered. Then choices are given based on this data mining and laws are created. Otherwise you have money and get what you want. We were disenfranchised a long time ago. We can vote, but only with the "choices" we are given. We need direct democracy, where we the people have a say in each and every law. Journalists need to point out facts, get to the truth, expose the lies. Instead they are paid to tell us how to think. I am tired of the trolls.......

[-] 2 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

I deal in logic. There is a difference. Some states already have direct democracy in the form of referendums on their ballots. They don't work well.

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

An absolute is logic - this was my point. Up or down, 1 or 0, positive or negative; All logic. Logic is used only to solve or create "solvable" problems. As are absolutes. It is all the same. You need the gray area for debate and concern. A choice of one thing or another is not a choice. We need a multi party system. Here is an issue, a Christmas tree in the town center. It is offensive, do you agree, yes or no? Then it starts a battle, and the only logical decision is to eliminate the "offensive tree" or "nativity scene" Someone always gets offended. II say all or nothing. If Jewish traditions want decorations, Muslim, any, let all have it. Let us all have what we want and not be offended as we are equal. If we go back to this then the problems go with it. That is freedom, and should not be cherry picked as an issue. This crap needs to stop. Referendums function in logic. Do you want the sales tax abolished in Massachusetts? How about an income tax cut? We vote for the obvious and they overturn it in legislature. Abuse of power , this also needs to stop - the will of the people is never heard, unless it benefits an interest.

Gay marriage another one. It was not an issue or concern until it was programmed then all wanted in on the deal.

Get rid of the dog race tracks - not an issue until it was created then groups formed on both sides.

Cell phone use/bans, seat belt laws, health insurance mandates. Not issues until they are manufactured. Then politicians take sides. Use the issues to get elected and make laws. This needs to stop - lets just be free and let our creators sort it out. Serious crimes like murder, etc obvious we need some laws.

This petty crap needs to stop. Leave well enough alone.....

[-] 2 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

Truthfully, I don't care what kind of decorations people use around Christmas time. But if you protest it because you don't believe in Christmas then maybe you should piss off. If you exclude Christmas decorations in public schools but allow colored pages of menorahs then I have a big problem with that.

But, I do have a serious problem with a religion that condones honor killings. Example in Belgium yesterday....a family was convicted of murdering their muslim daughter because she was raped and thereby brought dishonor on the family. Almost every armed conflict in this world is being caused by Islam.

A two party system give is a MAJORITY. A multi-party system will only give us a plurality and further divide us. There is a reason the electoral college is in place...it is to circumvent plurality and division.

I have come to the point in my life where I don't give a flying squirrel if I offend anyone.

[-] 1 points by Briggs (36) 10 years ago

I believe your case study on Muslims is a vague generality of the entire religion, with as many unique and intricate aspects as there are to everything else in life. What about the case studies everyone who happens to be Christian and kill their spouse for cheating? What about the Christian aggressors? People are people and they bring their crap with them to every institution every created by people.

A two sided coin has two sides, but the same face. This is what people are arguing over. Social reform and change is necessary when greed and corruption runs rampant through the system by the very design of the system itself. This movement is necessary, even according to the founding fathers of this country.

Violence is committed against violent and nonviolent movements. The state that your threatening nonviolent movements with is a fascist state that violently represses social movements. If logic is how you deal with things, you need more information for your logic to be logical. You have some valid points, but a lot of education, or at least research into ideas that you have to prove them. Otherwise, you're just talking blowing smoke in the wind.

[-] 1 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

Briggs, you know as well as me that I have already provided more fact than the 99% on the forum.

Name three U.S. news stories where an American christian family killed their daugher in an honor killing.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 10 years ago

boot this entity, study his posts and you will clearly see why

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

Frog do you mean me? I am sorry if I am coming across the wrong way I have been doing a lot of venting lately. I hope you mean someone else.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 10 years ago

Nope, simplesimon. COINTEL or worse. It is hard to tell which replies go to which comments, the only way I know often, is because I get the pop up notice that somebody has replied to me.

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

I think he likes pouring gas and getting people going. Its kind of funny, but don't let it get to you. He is probably upset due to some ego. Just hash it out or leave it alone. Trolling @ its finest, but there is debate

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

I can't tell how this line goes up, and points to my original post. I think the entity you refer to is a cop/fed/co-intelpro or something. There are some hidden agendas surrounding this entity. I really hope you don't mean my original post. I have been burt out lately and have been venting a lot. I am sorry and will go away if I have offended anyone.

[-] 0 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

Oh stop it whiny puss.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 10 years ago

oh, in person things would be decisive

[-] 1 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

meh. I'm in Vermont, come on up.

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

Please stop this childish crap. You are obviously a divider. One of those like you are programmed to be. Go back to the pied piper TV, and get some more biased programming. I pointed out that some things I agree with you on, but I am just a masshole as you say - etc. Then you reply with some logical points which was good. Lets be civilized? I thought you were logical? obviously you are confused and could use some fluoridated water to calm down. You agree that the elections are fronts. You seem to be all over the place.. I don't mind some debate, like we were having but come on. You are missing the point. I like the fact you pour a little gas on the fire to spark discussion. But you come across just like those who corrupt the field movement. Start trouble by selling drugs, relieve themselves in the parks, encourage the traffic blocking etc. All to get the media attention to the negative and corrupt the movement. Typical COINTELPRO pattern at its finest. Prove to me otherwise - If you are here to help, then do so in a non trolling way, and stick to the threads, not this. This thread started good and now has been contaminated so bad. Just like when they piss in the park and litter. You are no different.

[-] 1 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

I agree that elections are fronts for the American people, you think that elections are fronts for other entities who apparently control the ballot box. American voters decide who is elected into office. Your reading comprehension lacks.

What are you trying to say anyway? If you don't agree then you don't agree. If you are enraged or annoyed at what I say then don't respond. You see, you read what I say because you like the debate. If you look through the name calling, which is deserved based upon what kind of stupidity someone posts, then you would see that my logic is concrete.

I have friends who are massholes...we've been friends for many, many years. They are card carrying liberals and we're still great friends. I call them massholes and a lot worse in person.

Now, you could resort to veiled threats like Froggy up here, and at least one other poster who has kept quiet lately. I have three here who really don't like me and would probably resort to more than words if we met in person. I don't worry about it, their failure to communicate their message is what makes them angry.

I can be as civilized or repugnant as you want me to be. It is entirely up to your point of view.

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

The choice is left to the people. The choices presented to the people are the predetermined fronts. In local and some circumstances the candidates are genuine. As they move up, they lose focus and sell out to those funding them. No lack of comprehension, just the truth. I can be logical, but I hunt for the gray area. That is always where the truth lies. If I say I am yes or I am no, then it is maybe. Get it? Have you ever done any work in politics? I have volunteered in camps and committees. Was an RNC member for a time, local stumping etc. Just so you know I am the minority in Mass, i tend to lean conservative. Am I now not a Masshole? Or am I by default as this is where I live. Here the problem lies with the 2 party system. Neither choice offers a solution, only compromise. They try to solicit to a base, and a swing arear (the gray area) The choices are presented are manufactured "issues" They target audiences based on polls. The system is all statistics and not real anymore. It hasn't been for a long time. Sure sometimes they throw us a bone or 2, but things never get done. Or they get shoved on us. After Romney implemented the Health Care policies in MA I started to realize he caters to both sides, and was setting up the liberal base for a later presidential run. He will use this as the reason he is needed to implement healtcare for the nation. It wasn't much of an issue for me until I lost my job and they try and force me to buy health insurance based on income. But what about expenses? What about my mortgage. Nope doesn't count here is a tax penalty for you. I appealed the first time and one. Second time I had to cash out my retirement to survive, and it put me over a braket, and they are screwing me. I have no health problems, and most people don't, they always see the doc for a pill for something. Disaster health insurance is cheap, but doesn't count. I can pay a doc that does private family care $35.00 for a visit, and get a script if needed for antibiotic if I got an infection lets say for $1.00-$4.00 with pahrmacy disc. card or wal-mart pharmacy. Why pay the $75.00/week to get a cheaper co-pay? They even have lower rates if you don't have insurance and agree to pay out of pocket on a plan with urgent care. It is cheaper than insurance any day.

[-] 1 points by simplesimon (121) 10 years ago

Yes, everyone in Mass is a masshole. ;-)

You have provided no solutions.

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

All right you did it with a smile so I will let it go. For now.....There is one solution. Blow it all up and start over. Wait that's happened before and about to happen again.....Push the reset button perhaps??? wait I forgot this is not Xbox or playstation, etc....I can hope can't I ? If I had a solution, I would be president. We have to hash to get the ideas out. The bottom line we need to try.

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

Another one for you, I had united healthcare when insured. I needed a script for an infection. It was more expensive for the co-pay than to buy the Walgreens pharmacy card for $25.00 yr and pay $4.00 out of pocket? I needed a refill and it was $4.00 - my crappy co-pay was $35.00???? what is going on here. I always asked what the no insurance cost is and there is always a cheaper alternative. The whole thing is a scam. As stated I can pay a lot less to see a private physician. He only takes MassHealth and Medicare patients. He also takes cash/check/credit card patients - no more networks. No insurance or health care group twisting his arm to see x patients/hr. He gave up on that and set up his practice to cater to people like me, people that want a choice and set their own rates. It still works. My doc spent 1 hr with me and not only treats what you are there for, treats you like a person. He is not in it for money, he is semi-retired and does it for the reasons that are ethical. When the system started going south a while back docs started joining Health care "associations" IE:Medical associates of Greater Boston, pediatric associates of Hawthorn, etc, etc, all tied to a network which connects them to insurance providers. The care goes down the tubes because numbers become the game. Let it go back to the free market.

[-] 1 points by HarryCrew07 (433) 10 years ago

I agree that this sounds like a problem, but perhaps going back to free markets isn't the only reason why your doctor was so kind. It could have something to do with the fact that he is a caring, integrity filled human being. Just saying.

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

I think you are right. If people cared about each other, and used the free market and allowed competition to set prices, we would have a winner. We were never denied health care. It was the insurance companies that hijacked it. First through business insurance, hazard insurance, malpractice insurance, then workers comp, then risk, umbrella, loss prevention, etc. Then we were offered "health insurance" it was cheap , and had deductibles. The drug companies took over the docs, gave incentives for scripts driving up health insurance costs. This in turn created drugs that caused more problems then they helped, causing lawsuits causing malpractice insurance to soar increasing risk, and further driving up medical costs that are always passed on so they can make money. It is a nasty cycle, and insurance companies are to blame. Next, care gets compromised as more patients need to be seen per hour causing further misdiagnosis/more mistakes and higher insurance costs for the doctors. Hospitals are also sued all the time. Now Houston we have a problem.... Hence the whole health care problem

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

All I was asking was for all of us to behave. We are way off topic and should start a thread on issues independent of this topic. We technically are out of place on this thread, simple courtesy. No more attacks on petty stuff and on each other OK? These differences are what divides us. Play nice, only point I was trying to make.. As you see in my posts I point out the flaws, but the message was sound. Do understand that the movement started off well, it later got hijacked. In Boston they were paying people to litter, homeless to occupy, etc. There are real problems that need real solutions. This organization is based on real ideas and real people. It needs fine tuning for sure, but not outright destruction from within. I need to come up for air now...

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

This was to expose the government and wall st/federal reserve corruption. We do not want to overthrow anything. They have gotten out of control. I do agree that it has gone a bit far. Many are getting pissed, esp with the traffic jams, etc. It needs a rest, and possibly a re-org. The government needs to do the same.

[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 10 years ago

“the administration asked us to remove the language which says that US citizens and lawful residents would not be subject to this section.”

http://rt.com/usa/news/obama-detention-veto-defense-853/

[-] 2 points by Restorefreedomtoall1776 (272) from Bayonne, NJ 10 years ago

Even Republican Senator Lindsay Graham of North Carolina, a co-sponsor of the bill along with the clueless John McCain of Arizona admits it DOES apply to American citizens because the executive branch of government is given the power to declare ANY American citizen a terrorist for ANY reason or no reason at all, but simply at the whim of whomever might be in power at the time. Consider a Newt Gingrich, for example, having that much power. He has been known to pursue personal vendettas even in the halls of Congress.

[-] 1 points by libertarianincle (312) from Cleveland, OH 10 years ago

I guess you missed the part where that language changed again. The Phrase "Does Not Apply to US Citizens" was taken out and DOES NOT appear in the bill anywhere:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112s1867es/pdf/BILLS-112s1867es.pdf

You have eyes. You have a brain. Read for yourself. Think for yourself. You can do it, I know you can.

[-] 1 points by warbstar (210) 10 years ago

Unbelievable. Feinstein is now authoring and submitting ANOTHER bill to clarify the language of the NDAA.

If everything is so clear then why does Feinstein have to submit ANOTHER bill with additional language to clarify the NDAA?

How do we know that the SECOND BILL OF CLARIFICATION will even pass?

There is no question that over the last decade the US Government has been involved in widespread human rights violations. Not a single US Government war criminal has been prosecuted. People are rightly justified to demand clarification of the language.

It’s a nobrainer.

The fact that Feinstien is compelled to submit another bill is proof on its face that the NDAA is problematic.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 10 years ago

You have eyes. You have a brain. Read for yourself. Think for yourself. You can do it, I know you can.

I did read it - at least that part of it that is in question. And I did kinda come to the same conclusion you have. But I would note three things:

  1. the provisions in question are numbered, and there are two in this case, the first of which is buried in the text of the bill about five numbers back - making it difficult to find.

  2. We had spies operating on U.S. soil during WWII and did not seem to require special legislation and we did just fine

  3. The issue of indefinite detention blurs the line between POW status and the status of criminals. We didn't have any trouble expediting the execution of Timmy McV - we shouldn't be getting so confused between what is an enemy soldier and what is a criminal.

I would point out: we can hang criminals.

[-] 1 points by opensociety4us (914) from Norwalk, CT 10 years ago

And who can we thank for getting the new draft?

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

thank you for the SANITY
this tactic - twisting the truth so far it becomes a lie - is the fox hallmark
sorry to see it here SO OFTEN !

[-] 1 points by mover92 (3) 10 years ago

The military is not REQUIRED to detain American citizens accused of Terrorism. (section 1032 in above link, 1022 in latest version.) No, They must be PRECLUDED from arresting and detaining the citizens without constitutional due process.

[-] 1 points by mover92 (3) 10 years ago

The question is the use of the phrase: "the military is not REQUIRED

[-] 1 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

I agree, OWS itself has lost control as it has already been infiltrated. The message is sound. The problems you see happening is only proving that this is true. Some people that join the groups have no idea what the point is. I do not think of OWS as stronger, just the messages they communicate. Human expression through creativity and unity is an expression of reality. It is really bad for some, I can identify with some of the messages. Simply get a job, etc is not the answer. I went from making good money to working several jobs and still the bottom is falling out for me. I did not live beyond my means either. I got by 3 1/2 years without my original income. However my home is wortless, I am in the grey area where I don't qualify for crap. The middle class are being forced into being poor. There is no more American dream. For those that beleive there is, one day you will be forced to wake up. We are slaves to the banks and corporations, the fed. This is true and is revealing itself. The only way to get ahead is screw everyone on the way up and step on whoever you can & steal. Pretend you are doing good. The depression was never allowed to run its course. We were supposed to abandon that system, and unite with each other as a community. Instead they (the architects) created one last bubble that is about to pop.. If we do not join and stop the finger pointing it is over people. Stop the negative comments, lets be positive and get to a solution. This is the typical division that keeps feeding the darkness.

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 10 years ago

Please BOOT the troll

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by HarryCrew07 (433) 10 years ago

Ironically, the final document doesn't include a section of the War Powers Resolution which it needs to in order to be technically legal. So sections 1031-1033 are illegal according to previous legislature, not just the Constitution as some have claimed.

[-] -1 points by Tinhorn (285) 10 years ago

Here is the exact verbage as it pretains to Lawful Resident Aliens:

(2) LAWFUL RESIDENT ALIENS.—The require ment to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to a lawful resident alien of the United States on the basis of conduct taking place within the United States, except to the extent permitted by the Constitution of the United States. 21 (

[-] -1 points by Tinhorn (285) 10 years ago

Here is the exact verbage as it pretains to U.S. Citizens:

(b) APPLICABILITY TO UNITED STATES CITIZENS 9 AND LAWFUL RESIDENT ALIENS.— 10 (1) UNITED STATES CITIZENS.—The require ment to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States.

[-] -1 points by Tinhorn (285) 10 years ago

You all need to read the bill. It is found in Section 1030, Subtitle D. It is not new!!!!! All it is is an Affirmation of what is already in the Patriot Act. IT IS NOT NEW POLICY!!!!! It has already been in existance for almost 10 years.