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Forum Post: Ridiculousness of OWS

Posted 2 years ago on Dec. 12, 2011, 5:36 p.m. EST by utahdebater (-72)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I know you hate GS but read this story. This was related to me by my sister-in-law who works at the Salt Lake branch of GS. She is an incredibly hard worker, she works 10 hours a day there and worked very hard to put herself through school and to get an interview with them. Here is the story.

She was standing at the window with her coworker looking out at the OWS protesters in the park across the street when her coworker told her this story. "Wow, I grew up in a two room house in Jamaica. Most of these people are living better than I did all growing up. I worked extremely hard to move to America and pay for my schooling, and now they're protesting? Do they realize how hard I've worked to get here? How hard everyone has worked to get here?"

This just shows the ridiculousness of OWS claiming that upper members of large corporations such as GS have never had to struggle a day of their lives. They have had to work extremely hard to get to the top. I agree that some members of the upper class are using their earned capital in corrupt ways, but it's unfair to characterize them ALL this way. Because, simply put, they are NOT all that way.

104 Comments

104 Comments


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[-] 3 points by riethc (1149) 2 years ago

"...OWS claiming that upper members of large corporations such as GS have never had to struggle a day of their lives."

Where did you hear that?

[-] 0 points by blackbloc (-19) 2 years ago

no they just perform no meaningful tasks and are not required

[-] -1 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

There was a post on here stating that. I realize that not everyone involved with OWS believes that, I should have stated that.

[-] 2 points by riethc (1149) 2 years ago

You stated that OWS claims this.

[-] -1 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

I know, I left off what I meant to say which was that SOME OWS protestors claim this.

[-] 2 points by riethc (1149) 2 years ago

Specificity would resolve a lot of issues before they start.

[-] -1 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

Yep, sorry, I apologize, I thought I had that in there like I meant to.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

The Issue isn't a question of your sister-in-law or her industrious friend or how hard anyone has worked ; It Is A Question Of "WTF are Goldman Sachs 'As A Corporate Entity', Up To ?

Are they acting or behaving for The Good of The U$A or its Citizens ? Can you remember as far back as 2008 ? Have you any idea what happened then ? People can perhaps accept Wage-Slavery but should they just quietly accept Deb-Bondage and Private Opulence coupled with Public Decrepitude, too ?

You give the impression of possibly still believing in the now palpably defunct 'Trickle Down' theory of Capitalism, whereas those with the eyes to see, discern a "Hoover Up Kaputalism" at work.

The Petit Bourgeois (like you?) seem to really be fretting whether some one is coming for their hard earned dollars, whereas of course it's The Corporations (& The Trans-National Banking Corporations, like GS in particular) which have usurped democracy and which have to be opposed by all freedom loving people.

The Ruling Elites (The 0.01%) in The U$A have been too engaged with Parasitism and Larceny at home & Empire and WAR abroad, to really be bothered with the 99% and indeed there is no end of "clowns" on this forum alone, more animated and excited by the prospect of WAR on Iran for example - than with the Debt-Bondage of their own fellow citizens.

Finally, please try to get a glimpse just what OWS et al may be so animated about, for example via :

a) http://www.businessinsider.com/these-are-the-30-american-companies-that-paid-less-than-zero-income-tax-from-2008-2010-2011-11?op=1#ixzz1ejBOPiGq ;

b) http://www.ctj.org/corporatetaxdodgers/CorporateTaxDodgersReport.pdf ;

c) http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/category/economics/ ;

d) http://www.storyofstuff.org/movies-all/story-of-broke/ ;

e) http://maxkeiser.com/ & http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/

radix malorum est cupiditas ...

[-] -1 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

I'm not a Petit Bourgeois in the least bit. I'm in high school, and my parents aren't close to being in the top classes, and I'm willing to defend my arguments when you bring up evidence to support your claims.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

You're in high school ! So perhaps the events of 2008 when you were 3 years younger aren't quite clear in your mind ? Also there may be a good chance that you subscribe to The American "Cult of Wealth" without a full appreciation or concern as to how that wealth may have been obtained and accumulated.

I strongly advise you to watch The Oscar winning documentary "Inside Job" (see poster"teenager's" link in http://occupywallst.org/forum/inside-job-documentary/ ) and perhaps also try to peruse & reflect upon http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/category/economics/ , in order to try to understand where OWS is coming from.

Finally, it's a bit arrogant of you to say "bring up evidence to support your claims.", when I've given you 6 clear links (+ 2 more here) ! Also (& not withstanding your opening title!) don't pretend that you are coming here without your own prejudices as your exchange with "armchaircon1" below, clearly shows [ie He says : I think the main goal that OWS is protesting is: bankers paid off their loans, have big houses, and eat steaks.. why cant I.. lets camp in a park, block intersections in the name of 'civil disobedience' until we get the same! - TO WHICH YOU RETORT : "Haha this comment is brilliant." !!]

Good Luck with your studies & ...

ipsa scientia potestas est ;-)

[-] 0 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

I've read Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations and Karl Marx's A Communist Manifesto. I understand how wealth is accumulated. Trust me. And that post WAS brilliant! I found it extremely funny.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Consider : The point is NOT What you have read but What you have understood. So you "understand how wealth is accumulated", do you ! Really ?!

I know that it may go against a Young Right-Winger's Essential Nature but "Care to Share" ? Are you really so sure that it is just Not just a 'version of a theory or amalgam of ideas', that you only think you understand ? "Trust" you ? lol~{;-)

You are so eager to escape your loving, hard working 'one step from blue colour' parents and you crave out from your desert exile but most of all you crave M0NEY, Status and the recognition of your self-appreciated, nascent intelligence. The world's your oyster ... but baseless arrogance will only get you noticed for the wrong reasons.

Did you watch The Excellent Documentary "Inside Job" ? Hopefully. Now, please find a scintilla of humility and have the honest curiosity to engage with :

a) http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/ -(Esp. Ep. 222 !!!) ;

b) http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ ;

c) http://www.nomiprins.com/articles/ ;

d) http://papermoneycollapse.com/ &

e) http://www.opensecrets.org/ ;-)

That's 12 links I've provided in all ! Go On !! I dare you ; challenge your only recently acquired programming, presuppositions and prejudices !!! {& look, your forum post made 100 thread posts (:-p)}

audaces fortuna iuvat ...

[-] 0 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

Have you not read my other posts? My so called "arrogance" is not baseless. I came in with no presuppositions and prejudices, I did over 25 hours of research on income disparity alone this past month alone. Which is not easy to do with a demanding high school schedule.

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Oh dear, unfortunately you're turning out to be graceless, impetuous and petulant as well as arrogant !!

Good luck with the rest of your life. In this my last post to you, my final words ; genuine advice and humble request to you is just to watch the 25 minute "The Keiser Report ; Ep. 222, link abv." ... & .. also research Utah's own "Rocky Anderson" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocky_Anderson & http://www.justicepartyusa.net/ ) .

fiat lux ...

[-] -1 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

I only become graceless, impetuous and petulant when people presume me to be arrogant and ignorant. I'll watch it when I have time though.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

nice story - bet it isn't even true.

if it is, and if she had a hand in design, or implementation, of the sale of mortgage backed securities - securities that upper management assured their customers were solid investments - even while they bet against these very same investment instruments through AIG -

then she may be guilty of fraud.

They may both go to jail.

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

This story is 100 percent true. And they both started working there only a few months ago and they both work in operations. So neither of them could ever possibly be guilty of fraud. Why do you hate successful, hard working people so much? Is it cuz you're not one and that makes you jealous?

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I don't - I hate it when I purchase something and it turns out not to be what I was assured it was - especially when the purchase is an investment and the clown I bought it from makes a side bet it's going to tank after assuring me otherwise.

It's called fraud

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

And not everybody in the upper class engages in it. Your convinced that everybody does that when that's simply not true.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

did I say that?

show me where I said that

you're being paranoid.

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

You made a reference to it here "if she had in design or implementation of the sale of mortgage backed securities - securities that upper management assured their customers were solid investments - even while they bet against these very same investment instruments through AIG -then she may be guilty of fraud." The way I read this was that your implying that everyone GS is guilty of doing this. Is that what you meant? If it's not could you please explain what you meant? I am sincerely interested in your views on this.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

it should be clear enough, those who engaged in or knowingly facilitated that process should see the judge

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

Everybody agrees with that. Are you saying that everyone at GS in the upper levels engages in fraud though?

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I don't have evidence of that - but I have an idea -

lets ask them.

Lets go through their records and find out.

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

Probably smart, there would have to be reasonable evidence that at least one person in the corporation had committed fraud before a warrant would be issued though. And from what I know of GS from my sis is that they keep a pretty close watch on everyone in the company involved in handling finances.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

We're not after your sis, don't sweat it.

I mean, not unless she knowingly engaged in fraud, of course.

No, all we want is for the judicial system to perform it's proper function. If it did that, you wouldn't even be sweating.

Here:

RoboSigning and the lack of legal responce by the judicial system in Maine

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

That referenced GMAC not GS. I'm assuming you're just making the point that a closer watch is needed on large financial institutions?

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

The robosigning of real estate contracts was a part of the foreclosure process, many of the loans foreclosed on in this manner became mortgage backed securities, many of which were sold by GS.

It's all related.

It's all criminal.

So far they're getting away with it.

that isn't right.

R.E.S.T.I.T.U.T.I.O.N.

P.R.I.S.O.N.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

The article didn't say that. I was speaking generally.

Mortgage backed securities became very popular. Even when it was known they were shitty investments, people kept pushing them, from the lenders [like Countrywide] to the brokerage - like Goldman -

Whether GMAC sold their mortgage securities to Goldman or someone else I have no idea, but sell they did.

[-] 2 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

You get some who have come up the hard way and some who haven't; speaking as someone who went from the Bronx to MIT I understand where your sister's coming from. We're not here to lynch the upper middle class workers but rather we want to see upper upper management held to account, both for the explicit crap they pulled and for creating a system in which anything goes so long as short-term profits stay high.

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 2 years ago

i wouldn't be so sure of the anti-lynching position--that's what it took to cause a change in France circa 1780s.

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

The problem with indiscriminate lynching is that it's very easy to get so lost in vengeance that nothing gets done to fix things. That does not mean that I don't want to see the people at the top of the heap who created this climate and who were responsible for outright fraud dealt with swiftly, severely, and publicly. For reasons of justice, catharsis, and deterrence I feel that a punishment phase for actual offenders is necessary. However, when we cross the line from justice to witch hunts then we're simply distracting ourselves from reconstruction at the expense of innocent people.

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 2 years ago

i agree and ponder why this has not come about. there are many to prosecute, but as we saw with mozillo of countrywide (the only attempt i know of to date), who sold the company to wachovia for 26B and pocketed a huge portion himself, not even the peeved corporatist with billions (wachovia) can get a prosecution related to this debacle. it's pretty well accepted that fuld, blankfein and corzine committed fraud in addition to their gross incompetence. corzine said MF's future is very bright 6 days before it's utter collapse, for example--he should at least be prosecuted for securities fraud for that one--i am surprised there's not yet a shareholder class action.

the message as it stands is CRIME PAYS, especially if it's of the white collar variety.

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

I figure it hasn't happened predominantly because of the "friends in high places" problem, and while some attorney generals in some states are actively trying to fight things like blanket immunity deals for banks you have another whole group who are scared of the financial power the banks wield and don't want to risk seriously pissing them off. It's the same reason that actually trying a drug lord in a country like Colombia or a mob boss in 1930s America (note: I do not consider the financial industry a crime syndicate; I'm merely using the analogy to make a point) was so bloody difficult: these are men with power, and hauling them in front of a court is a tricky proposition unless you're already prepared for the resulting backlash, and whether you convict or not you will have still made very powerful enemies when everything's said and done.

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

See I agree with that, that's intelligent and makes sense, I'm just sick of people on here characterizing the upper classes as "greedy and evil" when really they're not all that way.

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

I think that if most people stopped and thought about what they wanted and who they wanted to go after, people like your sister wouldn't be on that list. I also think that what's happened is one whole series of rather vicious rhetorical devices have been brought to bear in favor of protecting a small group of superrich and safeguarding the interests of large multinationals, and in our anger at such underhanded tactics we tend to lose focus on what actually matters.

What I actually want to see happen as far as finance is concerned is comprehensive and thorough campaign finance and lobbying reform, a reinstatement of Glass-Steagall (complete with the corresponding breakup of oversized financial conglomerates), and for the finance industry to refocus itself on sustainable, productive lending for its own sake and on venture capital for small businesses.

[-] 1 points by CatLady2 (248) from New York, NY 2 years ago

What scares me is the lynch mob mentality Im hearing so much of. As if there were no middle ground. There are a handful of folks on here who make complete sense, you being one of them. Im in agreement with what you would like to see change with this movement.

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 2 years ago

OWS should start peacefully and see whether that works. Other methods are legitimate and may need to be effected.

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

A lot of people are really angry, and the government as of now has been sleeping on the job as far as regulation of the financial industry is concerned, and the combination of those two things creates a mentality of "Fuck 'em all! Let 'em all roast; they earned it!" even when the circumstances surrounding what happened aren't that simple. There is a list of people who should be hauled up in front of a grand jury for the shady dealings and outright fraud that led in part to the collapse, and a significant portion of that list probably belongs in prison, but that list is smaller and more nuanced than many have the patience to consider after what happened. When you factor in the continued campaign of hate and misinformation from the right, you create a lot of angry people whom nobody has taken the time to educate and focus.

[-] 1 points by CatLady2 (248) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Loads of people are good and pissed off.. myself included. I just dont think lumping the people into 2 entirely seperate groups is going to be the answer. Absolutely there are people who should be hauled up front and center to a grand jury, and when stories like the newest MF Global clusterf**k came to light, I was right there cheering for heads to roll. I just want to see accountability on all levels without the pitchforks and torches .

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

Same here. Corzine should be called to account, as should those people beneath him who knew about this and either endorsed it or did nothing despite their knowledge. The same goes for the CDO debacle, the robosigning debacle, and similar incidents in the financial industry. Treat it like the Nuremberg war crimes trials; put those who can reasonably be suspected of complicity or criminality on trial and then leave the rest be.

[-] 1 points by CatLady2 (248) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Corzine is an utter disgrace. There are times in my life when I really dig the " off with his head" form of punishment. very similar to Madoff and his cronies.. Often I wonder how some people sleep at night.

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

I agree with you completely; I think that severe public punishment of the major offenders to make an example would go a long way toward deterrence of similar crap in the future while at the same time allowing us to move from the "Off with his head!" phase of this thing toward the "OK, now how do we rebuild this country?" phase.

[-] 1 points by CatLady2 (248) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Right on the money with that thinking.. rebuilding is the key. Ending everything as we know it is not the answer. There are many many great things going for us here in the country. and the few things, which granted , are huge issues, are the things which need the focus on now. That is where we as a country need to come together.
Change won't happen when there is still so much anger towards anyone who isnt of the same mindframe.

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

I agree with all that you said. That all makes complete sense. Just a question on the VC statement, are you saying you think VC Firms and financial firms should stay separate from eachother? As in a company like GS doesn't go into VC and vice versa?

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

What I'm suggesting is that firms like GS change up their approach; instead of playing the arbitrage game as their primary source of funding, have them instead use the capital they have to enter into the VC markets and then only keep a small amount of money (maybe 5-10% of actual total cash on hand) in the markets as a means of covering their losses when VC investments fail.

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

Ohhh ok. I can definitely see the sense in that. I just don't think it would be very practical to enforce that because of how many new regulations you would have to pass.

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

I'm not completely sure how it would be possible, but I feel like that should be the tack these firms take. Like I've been saying, capital is incredibly powerful, but it needs to be tied to actual innovation and productivity if you want to be able to fully harness its capabilities. I'm not sure if regulatory policy alone would be enough to make it happen but let's consider it as a possibility for now.

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

True dat. You seem like a really intelligent person to me. Just about everyone else I've encountered on this site believes that capital, used anywhere, is evil.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Re. "Just about everyone else I've encountered on this site believes that capital, used anywhere, is evil."

Really ? Just about "everyone" ? Why haven't you cited an example ? What's your sample size ? Or are you actually in the habit of making up little 'strawmen arguments' as you go along ?! You call yourself a "debater" but you've got me wondering if you aren't actually just another right-wing sophist !!

ad iudicium ...

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

Thanks; capital is essentially power when you get down to it. Like power, it is neither good nor evil; it merely seeks to reproduce as much as possible. In the hands of responsible people who know what they're doing this tendency can be used to produce truly great things that would have been impossible to create otherwise. However, when the people handling the capital are out for personal gain, or for that matter believe that they should be following the money rather than directing it, you get what we got in 2008.

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

It's true. I don't think many people understand that.

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Re: the co-worker who grew up in Jamaca, I for one find these sort of "contrast and compare" things insulting in the extreme. This country is supposed to be about freedom and opportunity.

And I do agree that not all wealthy people use their earned capital in corrupt ways. There are more than enough who do unfortunately.

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

Well just one person using their capital in corrupt ways is one too many. And why do you find these "contrast and compare" things insulting?

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

I find it insulting in that your inclusion of that in your post would seem to assume:

  1. Protesters have no empathy for those who work hard

  2. Are clueless to the fact that life may be even more difficult in other parts of the world

  3. Protesters should be thankful for all they have and be quiet.

OWS is attempting to make life better for ALL; to create a better future for ALL

Thanks for your taking the time to reply. Enjoy the rest of your day. ~ Thunderclap

[-] 1 points by TLydon007 (1278) 2 years ago

" I agree that some members of the upper class are using their earned capital in corrupt ways, but it's unfair to characterize them ALL this way. Because, simply put, they are NOT all that way."

I think there may be some in OWS that insist on viewing the 1% as a homogeneous groups bitterly opposed to all our interests, but I think the majority in the movement reject this view as extreme.

As for your sister, I can only assume she's not a lobbyist or executive engaging the business practices that led the collapse, and does not represent what OWS opposes.

As for her Jamaican friend, I can appreciate that she prefers to live in a country where wealth and influence is not as unequal as it was in her own. Perhaps she can learn to appreciate the people that fight for the rights that she enjoys so much, and refuse to let them be taken away?? America did not become the country it is because the people were complacent and appreciative that they do not live in a country where there is less freedom. They continuously fought for a vision where they would have more freedom. If they hadn't, she would have never moved here.

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

I never stated that all OWS protesters held this view. I should have clarified that I don't believe that though.

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 2 years ago

Not everything in the OWS is ridiculous.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/

The Revolution starts here!

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

Well not everything, but plenty is. Attempting to shut down the ports is ridiculous, blocking the doors to buildings so employees can't get in is ridiculous (that happened to my sister in law), and claiming that they rep the "99%" is ridiculous. But they are pointing out some major flaws, they're just going the wrong way about presenting these flaws for the most part.

[-] 1 points by misterioso (86) 2 years ago

"claiming that they rep the "99% is ridiculous " This is a common misconception, nobody has ever claimed to represent or speak for everyone in 99%. Obviously not everyone in the 99% feels the same way about the protests, nor do members of the 1% The 99% vs 1% meme is used to highlight inequality and its been pretty damn effective in doing that. Im sorry to hear what happened to your sister, if she could not get into work, the company should still pay her since it was not her fault. Unfortunately, desperate times call for desperate measures, the system is totally broken, the government is unresponsive to the needs of the citizens, disrupting business as usual is the only way to get their attention.
With regards to the port shut down, from what I have heard, a lot of the workers(but not all) were in on it. The unions leaders could not participate because of the legal terms of some labor agreement pertaining to protests, but they did voice support for the cause of the protestors

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 2 years ago

I think they should target Toshiba instead. What do you think?

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

Why Toshiba? I'm not trying to knock you but, personally I don't see what that accomplish cuz Toshiba is HQ'd in Japan.

[-] 1 points by TLydon007 (1278) 2 years ago

Hes been posting this crap about Toshiba for over a month. I think most of the time it's a spambot. Someone explained that he got fired from Toshiba, and holds a personal vendetta. Not sure what's true. But whatever you say to him, he'll try to redirect it to Toshiba being evil.

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 2 years ago

I don't work for Toshiba. I have never worked for Toshiba. Furthermore, you're just some disgruntled clown who drinks in the alley all day. They should have left you where they found you.

http://www.youtube.com/user/STFFestival?feature=pyv&ad=6608651899&kw=willowbrook#p/u/0/k_sYn8DnlH4

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

Ok 1st Article I don't think is all that valid of a reason cuz it happened in 1988 2nd Article Do you know if the woman mentioned won that suit or not? 3rd Article That's a decently valid reason, although they were litigated on it 4th Article Same thing as 3rd 5th Article At least they owned up to the fact that they made a mistake, they SHOULD still be litigated though

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 2 years ago

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/computers/toshiba.html

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2213279355#!/group.php?gid=2213279355&v=wall

They have to charge for shipping their lemon computers because they lost their favorable shipping prices with UPS. They lost that because the KTC caused them to lose it.

http://www.boycottowl.com/Toshiba/79

The man at Toshiba who thought up this scam was Guy Lugo or Guy Michael Prior. Toshiba can't fire him because they supported what he did, but I think they still have him on lock down.

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

So they're still being litigated for their actions which means they're losing profit. So they are being targeted currently.

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 2 years ago

The way toshiba survives is getting their hooks everywhere. The U.S. couldn't nail them because they were involved in so many american companies. That's why I've been screaming about them for the past month. They have gone from selling U.S. military secrets to being involved in nuclear accidents.

[-] -1 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

The woman's lawsuit is still going.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20443) 2 years ago

When has OWS claimed that people who work for companies such as GS don't work hard? What OWS claims is that those people are paid well for their hard work. And, yes, that some of them are corrupt, but not all.

On the other hand, suppose that same lady never had that opportunity at GS and ended up cleaning houses for 30 years, working 6 days a week for 10 hours a day making minimum wage.

What OWS argues is that this house cleaning lady deserves a living wage. OWS doesn't care how rich those at the top become, but it cares a lot about the folks at the bottom receiving a living wage.

[-] -1 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

Sorry, I should have clarified that some of the protestors have claimed that, not that everyone believes that. And if she had never had this opportunity it would have been her fault for not seizing the chance to get to America and get through school. I was mostly sharing this story to point out that a lot of people are given unfair situations but it's often up to that person to make the difference for themselves rather than blaming their problems on the world.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20443) 2 years ago

Understood, but keep in mind the way our economic system is set up you cannot possibly have just success stories. The lower level jobs will always exist and need to be filled. They are actually important to society and should be treated with respect through a living wage for all. I've heard some people in these threads claim that, you know, everyone should just go out and start their own successful business. It would be absolutely impossible for 300 million Americans to run successful businesses. The economy could never sustain that. So, for every Jamaican that comes here and succeeds as the one in your story, there will be hundreds who succeed, but at much lower level jobs. They deserve a living wage.

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

I realize that, I'm just pointing out that there's equal opportunity for all and that the upper class is NOT out to get everyone in the lower class. And I see what you're problem is with low wages, my question is, what do you think should be done about it?

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20443) 2 years ago

If employers hadn't been so stingy over the past 20/30 years we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Now that we've had a recession and the income disparities are absolutely glaring I think the minimum wage should be increased, companies should not be allowed to hire so many part time workers and temporary workers, etc. Little tweaks here and there could really remove the misery that so many are experiencing. Yes, profits might go down a bit, or the executives might have to make less than 343 times the average workers wage, but overall we'd have a more healthy society. Wages could be determined based on cost of living by geographic area.

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

Ok, that makes sense. One more question, how should this be implemented? Should the government enforce this? Or should we accomplish this through workers unions lobbying?

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20443) 2 years ago

I'm not a policy expert, but I would say that the most important thing would be to get money out of politics so that the government is returned to a true democracy and not a plutocracy. Once this happens the government will once again work for the general welfare of its citizens and not corporations.

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

That makes sense, I'd just like to point out that we've never been a true democracy, we've always been federal democracy.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20443) 2 years ago

Well, representative.

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

I guess thats a better way of saying it.

[-] 1 points by subversive1 (32) 2 years ago

1% doesn't include every single person that works somewhere within a corporation. It refers to the CEOs and management teams that continually grant themselves bonuses and profits at the cost of ALL the workers that have worked so hard to make the company successful.

How blind can you be? How do you think this coworker would feel if they were laid off to ensure that the company was profitable enough for the CEO to hit his multi-million dollar bonus at the end of the year?

[-] -1 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

I realize that the 1% doesn't include every single person that works within a corporation, only an idiot would assume that. My point was that most of the people within these corporations have worked extremely hard to get where they are.

[-] 1 points by CatLady2 (248) from New York, NY 2 years ago

The 1% is actually a very tiny portion of these companies. Most are average workers, some make more, some less. Thats the part that is completely misunderstood here. It certainly is not everyone who works in the financial industry. My sister also worked hard to come up the ranks in the investment world. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say she must be very good at what she does or else she wouldnt have retained 100% of her clients when she moved to another firm. They arent all crooks or thieves.

[-] -1 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

Thank you!

[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 2 years ago

They sell their soles to the company payroll. They (perhaps unwittingly) become the 1%'s useful idiots, self-appointed defenders of the status-quo.

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

I think you're unwittingly assuming they're all stupid idiots.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

People may have a lot of stress on their jobs and have to spend long hours at them, but that doesn't mean that they are actually "working" in the sense of actually producing a good or service that is at all useful to society.

[-] 1 points by Frizolio (80) 2 years ago

Yeah we call them Government personnel.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

Actually, most government workers provide essential services and so can reasonably be characterized as actually working. This would include everything from postal employees to park rangers. High level bureaucrats are another matter. They, like many Wall Street executives may experience considerable stress on their jobs and spend very long hours at them, but since they don't really produce any useful good or service, they, like the Wall Street 1% cannot reasonably be characterized as actually working.

[-] -3 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

The service they provide is useful to those who manage their finances through them. Therefore it is useful to society. You assume that if it's not useful to you, then it's not useful to anybody.

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 2 years ago

lots of people work hard at GS, but for what ultimately is a nefarious purpose--and no that's not making money, but for example: 100s of people at GS worked hard to squeeze greece into the EU; they produced a fairness opinion that said greek finances were sound--see how that worked out?? i cannot believe that the EU has not yet gone after GS for this, at least for incompetence, at most for fraud.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

There are all kinds of occupations that provide no or little useful service but basically exist only to keep the 1% in power. Police are one of the best examples of this. Of course they provide a useful service when they offer directions, but many departments very specifically do not have police serve in the neigborhood where they live precisely because they do not want them too closely attached to the community.

Teachers and social workers carry on similar useless services of maintaining the hegemony of the 1%, albeit more benignly and not visibly carrying lethal weapons.

And exactly what they are protecting are various services that serve no useful purpose except to keep a profoundly unjust and undemocratic social system in place such as banks, mortgage companies, stock brokerage houses, and for that matter even manufacturing firms that could function very well without a parasitic managerial elite on top.

[-] 0 points by blackbloc (-19) 2 years ago

blow me goldman sachs

[-] 0 points by turak (-812) 2 years ago

Yes: and in order to compete as adversaries: these ambitious people left their homes and nations and let all the people they once knew to rot in poverty and squalor in their desperate lust for money... and in the process, they become inhuman monsters who become insulated from the the rest of humanity who are not as fortunate as they are.

Adversarial competition creates inhuman monsters who value money above human life. Without cooperation: human civilization could not exist.

The OWS movement is a cooperative movement that is not based upon antagonistic adversarial combat. The people in the OWS movement cooperate with each other instead of competing AGAINST each other. Because of this they are more humane and better than all the rich assholes who think that how much money they have makes them any better from the 6.8 billion people on this earth. Being more ruthless and caring more about money than human life does not make you a better human being: it makes you worse.

By believing in the religion of greed, avarice and the lust for wealth and material objects: every single human being who tries to 'succeed' in this adversarial system... effectively becomes the ENEMY of every other human being on earth, since everyone is chasing the almighty dollar and everyone has been brainwashed into believing in this corrupt false premise.

On the other hand: the people who are joining the OWS movement, aren't making enemies... they're making new friends, and cooperating with each other, and because they''re enjoying their lives MORE than all you competitive workaholics and success-driven wage slaves: They are creating a new CULTURE that is completely opposed to your: which is one of consumer self-gratification and the most disgusting personal selfishness possible... which is why more and more decent honest people are leaving your ranks and joining their rallies and meetings.... and why regardless of how much money one may have or how poor one may be...everyone who is greedy and selfish IN THEIR SOUL hates them so much, and why so many of them come here to badmouth these people.

[-] 0 points by bigbangbilly (594) 2 years ago

Ridiculousness is our strength.

[-] 0 points by blackbloc (-19) 2 years ago

what about the people who sacrifice and worked their asses off but caught no breaks and had no connections or good luck and have been completely left behind to toil at jobs that are just as meaningless and useless as anyone working at goldman sachs the truth is if you put all that effort into getting a job at goldman sachs and are that driven and intelligent instead of trying to achieve for the betterment of mankind. If that is the case screw you you are ten times worse than the worthless scumbags that you serve period.

[-] 0 points by bill1102inf2 (357) 2 years ago

Recockulousness!

[-] -1 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

That was a clever combination of words.

[-] -1 points by fandango (241) 2 years ago

The main goal of OWS is societal disruption. To provide unrest among the populace. This is a dry run for next year. enough unrest, martial law, elections supended and that's it folks.

[-] 2 points by riethc (1149) 2 years ago

I think you may have nailed it, fandango.

[-] 1 points by buphiloman (840) 2 years ago

I think fandango has nailed it as well, if by "it" you mean the the tin foil hat to fandango's feeble head. Grow up, both of you. sheesh.

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 2 years ago

lol, Sure, we're the childish ones.

[-] -2 points by armchairecon1 (169) 2 years ago

I think the main goal that OWS is protesting is:

bankers paid off their loans, have big houses, and eat steaks.. why cant I.. lets camp in a park, block intersections in the name of 'civil disobedience' until we get the same!

[-] -2 points by utahdebater (-72) 2 years ago

Haha this comment is brilliant.