Forum Post: Richard Wolff on Economic Inequality
Posted 10 years ago on Aug. 28, 2014, 1:31 p.m. EST by struggleforfreedom80
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"The rich got unspeakably richer." from 1979 - 2012.
The income of the top 1% grew by 184.9%.
The income of the top .1% grew by 383.8%.
And, are you sitting down? The income of the top .01% grew by 685.1%.
All, while the income of the bottom 20% declined by -12.1%.
Fixing this is our biggest challenge and if we don't fix it, it could lead to our demise, the demise of the wealthy as well, all 100% of us, because this is unsustainable.
looks like a pyramid scheme on the top there
"Dunkin' Donuts Worker's Death Reveals The True Cost Of Our Low-Wage, Part-Time Economy"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/29/maria-fernandes-low-wage-work_n_5736790.html
"Friends told police that Fernandes kept gas in her car to avoid running out of gas when traveling between jobs. And she often slept in parking lots to get a few hours of rest between jobs, authorities said."
"Fernandes’ death is one of many recent examples of the extreme lengths to which low-income women must go to make a living these days."
"Low-wage and part-time work has proliferated in the post-recession economy."
Is this really the society we want to live in? We certainly don't have to! There is plenty of money to go around. We just need to stop the greedy grubbers at the top from hoarding it all. Occupy Wall Street for a fair economy that works for all people, for a living wage and for basic human dignity!
Either make capitalism work for 100% of the people it is supposed to serve or get rid of it!
That's a Great Slogan BW !!!
Make capitalism work for the 100% or get rid of it!
Solidarity to Maria Fernandes and her family ~*~ & in compliment to your important link, I append and recommend :
''Over the last two years, fast-food protests have grown in size, expanded in participation and spread around the United States, and more recently, the globe. Workers' demands include a "living wage" of $15 an hour and freedom to organize.
''Both the public and the industry are unable to ignore obvious reality that workers' wages are too little to live decently on as an independent American adult, let alone one with familial obligations. They are zombie wages: wages for the living dead. Unable to ignore this economic reality, many fall back on a web of plutocratic myths and fallacies that seek to derail honest, meaningful discussion about workers' lives, undermine their complaints, and justify the public's return to "blissful" consumerism.
''In the debate about fast-food wages, economic considerations are important, but they should not trump fundamental moral questions: "Is it unjust for companies to expand their profits at this rate while paying workers so little?" "Are fast-food workers being exploited?" "Is this exploitation legitimate?" "What does justice require of companies in terms of pay?" "As a customer, what responsibility do I bear for worker treatment and pay?"
fiat justitia ...
Wage theft is a huge problem in this country.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/01/business/more-workers-are-claiming-wage-theft.html?_r=0
No enforcement of labor laws, forget the Fair Labor Standards Act, corporations and small business both act like it never existed. So, what are we left with? Desperate workers accepting "temporary" work, "part-time" work, "independent contractor" work, etc. Why? Because workers don't stand up for their rights in this country and the government only cares about corporate profits and not the people.
''If an employee steals from an employer it's a serious crime and they are likely to go to jail. If an employer steals from an employee it's an "enforcement action" where they may be forced to repay part of the theft. Time to end the double standard and treat managers who steal from their employees exactly the same as employees who steal from their employers: jail them.''
From Michael Olenick - who made one of the nearly 1200 comments, after your excellent and important NYT article [ http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/01/business/more-workers-are-claiming-wage-theft.html ]. Thanx and in compliment, I append :
Labor day ''originated in 1887 to celebrate the contribution made by American workers to the strength and prosperity of the United States. The first Monday in September was chosen by President Grover Cleveland to avoid a May date that would keep alive the memory of the previous year’s Haymarket Massacre in which workers striking for an eight-hour day suffered casualties from the Chicago police.
''Globalism is a scheme for impoverishing First World labor and taking power and influence from the hands of the many and putting them in the hands of the few. The champions of globalism are the champions of America’s destruction.
''A system in which there is no countervailing power is a tyranny in which power is unconstrained and unaccountable. The American people have been subdued and turned into a flock of sheep. Will they ever rise again?''
Also fyi : http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/25919-labor-day-victories-to-celebrate by Dean Baker &
finally : http://truth-out.org/news/item/25911-$15-and-change-how-seattle-led-the-countrys-wage-revolution by David Goldy Goldstein.
respice, adspice, prospice ...
I truly believe that the way corporations and employers hoard profits at the top is exactly that, stealing. They steal the wages from the workers to enrich themselves and the government stands by while this happens. The general welfare clause in the Constitution has been thrown away as the government does absolutely nothing to increase wages and the livelihoods of the beautiful workers who make up this country.
''The Stark Facts of Global Greed, a Disease as Challenging as Climate Change'' -
It tells us what unregulated capitalism does to a society'',
by Paul Bucheit
We seem helpless, both in the U.S. and around the world, to stop the incessant flow of wealth to an elitist group of people who are simply building on their existing riches. The increasing rate of their takeaway is the message derived from the Credit Suisse Global Wealth Databook (GWD).
It's already been made clear that the richest Americans have taken almost all the gains in U.S. wealth since the recession. But the unrelenting money grab is a global phenomenon. The GWD confirms just how bad it's getting for the great majority of us.
In just three years, from 2011 to 2014, the bottom half of Americans lost almost half of their share of the nation's wealth, dropping from a 2.5% share to a 1.3% share (detail is here).
Most of the top half lost ground, too. The 36 million upper middle class households just above the median (6th, 7th, and 8th deciles) dropped from a 13.4% share to an 11.9% share. Much of their portion went to the richest one percent.
This is big money. With total U.S. wealth of $84 trillion, the three-year change represents a transfer of wealth of over a trillion dollars from the bottom half of America to the richest 1%, and another trillion dollars from the upper middle class to the 1%.
A closer look at the numbers shows the frightening extremes. The bottom half of America, according to GWD, owned $1.5 trillion in 2011. Now their wealth is down to $1.1 trillion. Much of their wealth is in housing equity, which was depleted by the recession.
The richest Americans, on the other hand, took incomprehensible amounts of wealth from the rest of us, largely by being already rich, and by being heavily invested in the stock market. The following summary is based on GWD figures and reliable estimates of the makeup of the richest one percent, and on the fact that almost all the nation's wealth is in the form of private households and business assets:
----In 3 years the average household in the top 1% (just over a million households) increased its net worth by about $4.5 million.
----In 3 years the average household in the top .1% (just over 100,000 households) increased its net worth by about $18 million.
----In 3 years the average household in the top .01% (12,000 households) increased its net worth by about $180 million.
----In 3 years the average member of the Forbes 400 increased his/her net worth by about $2 billion.
A stunning 95 percent of the world's population lost a share of its wealth over the past three years. Almost all of the gain went to the world's richest 1%.
Again, the gains seem almost incomprehensible. The world's wealth grew from $224 trillion to $263 trillion in three years. The world's richest 1%, who owned a little under $100 trillion in 2011, now own almost $127 trillion. For every dollar they possessed just three years ago, they now have a dollar and a quarter.
From New York and LA and San Francisco to London and Kenya and Indonesia, the rich are pushing suffering populations out of the way to acquire land and build luxury homes. The "winner-take-all" attitude is breaking down society in the U.S. and around the world.
More Madness
There's a lot more in the GWD, and it doesn't get any prettier. It tells us what unregulated capitalism does to a society.
radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ...
[Article copied verbatim from http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40084.htm & please use this link in order to access all embedded corroborating links]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~All allusions to 'Trickle Down Capitalism' are now redundant as everyone can so clearly see that we are living in days of 'Hoover Up Crapitalism' - pushed predominantly by The 'High Finance / Low Ethics / No Morals' Banking & 'FIRE' (Finance, Insurance & Real Estate) Sector.
This bull-shit Pyramid/Ponzi scheme can not last as Prof. Wolff & so many others know very well yet the 'stealing & enrichment' continue because the Govt. is bought & paid for ; corrupted & co-opted as ''The General Welfare Clause' is forgotten by all but ''the beautiful workers' & their champions, like you.
fiat justitia ruat coelum ...
The 85 richest human beings on earth own as much wealth as the poorest half of the world's population, or 3.5 billion people.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jan/20/oxfam-85-richest-people-half-of-the-world
Thanks for posting that great article. The facts are disheartening, but hey, we have to face them first, then fight them in order to make change.
But most of them are 'humanitarians' or 'philanthropists' so they must know something we don't.
Or perhaps, they are the most cowardly bunch of hypocrite pigs the world has ever seen. Perhaps, they should all buy a seat on Richard Branson's next test flight.
The world has to come together on this. It is a global problem at this point. The people of the planet just cannot continue to allow that much wealth to be concentrated among so few people while billions suffer. It doesn't have to be this way.
''Household Wealth Falls Considerably for Majority of Americans'' :
''When compared with the previous Surveys of Consumer Finance, it can generally be said that wealth grew in the United States from 1989 to 2007 and shrank from then on. At the time of the 2013 survey, the stock market had almost recovered to its 2007 peak. House prices had not. With house prices representing a larger share of assets for the bottom three fifths of Americans, this helped increase the differences in wealth between the top and the bottom. All in all, the results of the survey yield a pessimistic picture of economic progress since the end of the recession.''
The concentration of 'wealth' by The 0.01% Parasite Class - is even beginning to impact The 1% !!! Many previous Empires and regimes have fallen & renewed through revolution, when inequality has reached such levels !! Solidarity @ u & yrs & @ The 99% & yes - ''it doesn't have to be this way'' !
et ne quid nimis ...
Interesting. Soon the 1% will feel the extreme greed of the .01% the way the 99% have been for decades. And, the smaller the number of the parasite class, the easier it will be to take them down. We could start with those 85 richest people on earth.
The 0.01% Parasite Class is extremely vulnerable without their 1% lackeys - and they know it !!! There was a time not long ago when a healthy so docile 'middle class' could be given enough to be scared to lose it - in order to insulate the 'ruling elites' from the working (or would like to be working) classes but those days are waning now !! Violence is all that they have left and soon .. that won't even be enough !
http://www.nationofchange.org/2014/11/10/couldnt-possibly-poor-doctor-fell-poverty/ (via A4C) + ..
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/27427-the-working-families-party-must-go & not @ a tangent
http://www.vox.com/2014/11/12/7194603/mexico-protests-iguala-massacre to see what's coming.
spero meliora ...
Poverty has nothing to do with how hard you work. The hardest working people in this country make the least amount of money while the boardroom idiots who sit around on their asses do nothing make millions.
"After suffering two strokes, a doctor tells her story of how she and her family became “poor” and the lesson she learned: Being in poverty isn’t about how hard you work, it’s about how much money you make."
And, yep, where Mexico is headed is where unbridled greed and massive inequality eventually lead a society to and it's not pretty. I do wonder one thing, is our corporate takeover here in America, perhaps more polite, but, in the end, just as deleterious as the drug cartels, gangs and outward political corruption we see in Mexico?
"Poverty has nothing to do with how hard you work. The hardest working people in this country make the least amount of money while the boardroom idiots who sit around on their asses do nothing make millions." .. because it bears repeating, as does ...
http://rdwolff.com/content/costs-global-capitalism & fyi, by Noam Chomsky, see ..
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/27756-a-genuine-movement-for-social-change
In these times and in this context, notions of ''The End Of Protest'' is arguably counter-revolutionary & reactionary but hey, what do we outside the hollowed 'Academy' know .. as our lot is to just work, live, suffer and die in silence, right ?! Well fk that ''for a game of soldiers'' !! Militarised Cops - OR Not, lol !!!
consilio et animis ...
It is interesting tonight, 12/22/14, how in NYC, there are a lot of people trying to blame the protesters of the #ICantBreathe movement for the shooting of the two police officers. Now, if we really look at this closely, they were shot by a lunatic who had access to a gun.
So, the real roots of this horrible killing of Ramos and Liu is capitalism which has brought a failed health system with an even worse mental health system and almost unlimited access to guns.
Someone is profiting off these gun sales and our for profit healthcare system. I'd say they are to blame.
The "real roots of this horrible killing of Ramos and Liu is capitalism which has brought a failed health system with an even worse mental health system and almost unlimited access to guns." Sad sigh at the cold hard truth of that and at the fact that not a single person on MSM would ever have the actual gumption or cojones to say it. Here are two related (imo) links :
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/28152-price-of-private-prison & ..
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/28171-the-new-face-of-us-health-care-1-000-per-pill !!
We wish, hope & work as best we can for a better tomorrow for The 99% everywhere.
dum spiro, spero ...
Sadly, healthcare in this country is for profit, not universal and multipayer, meaning ultra confusing, lacking (even for people who have coverage) and detrimental to the health of Americans, but very good, and excellent even, for the profit margins of healthcare corporations, pharmaceuticals, etc.
What do we get as a result? We get mentally ill people running around in the streets shooting people, we get stressed out families, sick people, bankrupt people, etc etc.
We Need People over Profits!!! And, this includes universal, not-for-profit, single-payer healthcare!
Of course, Shadz, MSM will never bring this up because they are paid for by the very corporations that are earning these profits. We must, as citizens, start connecting the dots....
The plight of fast food workers is just one symptom of an ill economic system. Certainly, the hoarding of profits at the top is the problem and capitalism is what allows this to happen. Capitalism either needs checks and balances on it, or it needs to go.
The argument that the price of the fast food burger or chicken nuggets has to go up if wages for workers goes up is ridiculous. All that has to happen is the greedy grubbers, who sit on their butts doing zero work, yes, the stockholders, have to give up some of their profit to pay the workers. Sharing is the name of the game.
Through healthy distribution of wealth we can get back a society that is healthy, happy and sustainable. If we do not do this, we all, all 100% of us, will suffer.
Get corporate bribes out of Washington! Has this been lost on everyone?
Getting corporations out of politics is fundamental to straightening out our problems. But, getting corporations out of politics is actually only one check and balance on capitalism among a whole load of checks and balances that are needed because money is powerful and it's amorphous, like water, in it's shape. It will find some other way to exploit. That is why I tend to think that capitalism as a whole has to go. It just doesn't work for 100% of the people.
BW, :)
overthrowing Capitalism in a Country that was built on Capitalism is a hard and maybe an un-winnable battle...
maybe easier to rewrite or advance Capitalism
common view:
Capitalism is an economic system in which trade, industry, and the means of production are largely or entirely privately owned and operated for profit.
how bout ;
Capitalism is an economic system in which trade, industry, services, entertainment, research, the Arts, and the means of implementation are largely or entirely privately owned and operated for personal monetary profit as well as the expansion of community profit and wealth.
...
There has been a big move recently to acknowledge the existence of "Social Wealth" ... (what I used to term "Social Capital:)...
WHAT ARE SOCIAL WEALTH INDICATORS? Following are examples of the types of indicators that measure Social Wealth. All data should be compared to other nations and categorized by race, income, gender, age, and ability. These examples will be evaluated by experts on the basis of statistical potency, feasibility, and synergistic power. Social Wealth focuses on the condition of our human infrastructure, and includes our progress in:
human capacity development (both our capacities for economic productivity and our capacities for caring and creativity); our guiding values system (especially whether caring for people, starting in early childhood and throughout the lifespan, is valued socially and economically); and achieving our values through government and business investments in care.
more>>> http://www.caringeconomy.org/content/what-are-social-wealth-indicators http://www.partnershipway.org/get-connected/social-wealth-indicators http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/412711-National-Indicators-and-Social-Wealth.pdf
for just a few ....
We are entering a New Age ... the Industrial Age is on it's way out ... We are entering an Age of Social & Human Development .... No-one can stop it... We have realized that profit does not necessarily mean monetary profit ... there is much, much more ....
I would argue that social wealth in the United States is ghastly low.
Also, capitalism is actually antiquated now. Just as you say, we are entering a new age, therefore, I believe we need a new economic system. Capitalism grew out of the Industrial Revolution and the Protestant Reformation. We are now in an age of globalism and technology and capitalism no longer works. It is, in fact, an abject failure, at this point. So, we'll see, either the people will change it, or it will change to adapt to the new realities. But, right now, we are stuck in the morass of an economic system that has not kept up with the rapid social and technological change of the end of the 20th century and the early 21st century.
good post Bw... I agree... but I also think we need to let it phase in... so to speak.... we can't make monumental changes w/o blood type revolution... but we can take simple steps that get us there quicker than you may think... It's all about Consensus Building... we need to get the people comfortable with the changes....
Social Wealth has always been here... we have been just calling it "non-profit's" ... meaning non-monetary profit...
we need to start realizing that are we are really after is well-being for all ... which IS Social Wealth .....
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We need to convert private capitalism into public capitalism. Making free public capital equally available to all would end the need for debt and profit completely. Base money on labor hours and let the people themselves create the nation's money supply by working. Vote with your labor for the kind of society you want. Build a third party on these principles and achieve freedom through democracy, not revolution. (It's already started in Canada... http://www.financialParty.ca )
I agree that we need to completely revamp the way we value labor. No capital can create wealth without labor. Labor is the backbone of any economic system. Sadly, the Democrats have failed labor completely as worker rights, wages and jobs have been declining in quality and enforcement for 40 years.
crops are the backbone of the economy
Crops need laborers.
the majority of the people do not labor on crops
End CEO pay deduction! Raise non ceo salaries. That'll minimize economic inequality.
http://www.nationofchange.org/prescription-treating-runaway-ceo-pay-1409495910
But of course 1st priority Corp bribes out of Washington:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/1st-priority-money-is-not-speech-corps-not-people/
Taft Hartley and an AG willing to enforce it.Break up TBTF and the Telecoms-and all other anticompetitive combinations.They are Gouging with Fees,Usury and ridiculously High Rates.Europeans pay 1/3 what Americans do for Prescription Drugs & Telecom,for example.Europeans pay 35 bucks for internet,landline and TV.Americans pay 90-125 bucks for the same thing.What if some of that money could be freely spent instead of soaked directly into Corporations-or saved,or used to pay off Debts? What if some of the Billions Americans pay to Banks in Fees (for NOTHING) could instead be saved or spent? No wonder the Economy is so crippled it can't recover.
Agreed. Creating a more egalitarian and democratic economy, as well as environmental issues, should be top priorities.
The economy as it stands right now, is unsustainable. The greed fostered by capitalism either needs to be reigned in through checks and balances, or capitalism needs to go.
very simple and very correct
start with making voting days holidays
Good idea. And then implement voting-systems and democracy in the workplace. Workplace democracy means an end to capitalism.
https://occupywallst.org/forum/rolling-integrity-an-answer-to-an-occupy-3rd-polit/
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There are still too many practical problems which need to be solved before direct democracy is viable.
Creating a large scale participatory democracy is going to take time, but lots of things can be done today -- and in fact are being done today:
http://www.youtube.com/user/WorkplaceDemocracy1/videos
The struggle for a free, large scale libertarian socialist society must include many different tactics and strategies -- long term goals and short term goals. We should try to create new democratic workplaces, but also, thru strikes, organization and so on, try to implement more democracy in the existing institutions. These things, among many other things, can be initiated today.
Wonderful post 'sff'!
Thank you for the link to that stellar collection of 'workplace democracy' videos.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, and feel that OWS could and 'should' be a huge leader in workplace democracy.
There's just so much good that can be done for ALL of humanity by 'doing it right', isn't there?!
I'd like to focus on this in a couple of weeks when I'm not as busy as I am right now.
Thanks again!
Glad you liked it. hope you'll like the videos :)
Hey Ren
Thought you might find this interesting:
https://occupywallst.org/forum/rolling-integrity-an-answer-to-an-occupy-3rd-polit/
Could dovetail with the banner posting ideas you had for this site as well.
Thanks DKA. I've been paying attention to Brad's ideas. Though they're more focused on the political, there are ideas that could be used for a global cooperative, as well. I can see how an OWS cooperative, once large enough, could branch into political direct democracy, using their systems that are already in place.
I particularly like this one of Brad's, and others have spoken of this idea here, as well...
" a Real time online Consensus Building Polling system..."
I mean, if "Tim Hortons" has set up a nation-wide polling website to have the populace decide on the ' donut of the month' ...then we can set up a polling system for the populace to decide on important issues that directly affect humanity's quality of life...for Pete's Sake!!
Absolutely - if Banking can be done on-line - I see no reason that the public can not sound off on real issues as they happen.
This all goes towards the ability of eventually ( sooner or later ) establishing a real direct democracy.
I like french curler donuts
Cruller, Matt...French Cruller.
that's funny
Leave Ren alone. She is not a Democrat shill like you. Leave her alone! She will never accept your invitation for her to become a member of the Twinkle Team. Never!
Yes sir Officer
" Anyone merely fighting against the actors and not the stage are no occupiers."
We've been judged? And your Secret Partisan Poltical thought Police will now harass, troll, & seek banning.?
I will continue presenting current info/action items to agitate for the improvement of life for all the 99%.
Good luck in all your good efforts, officer
I don't believe in banning/censorship, that's DKAtoday's department.
You are free to say what you want, and I'm free to call you Democrat shills.
It's called free speech.
the right to free speech is a right of every individual
"Don't believe in banning"? huh? Who's a liar?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/jart-finish-cleaning-up-the-twinkle-team-ban-dkato/
Hmmmm? Anything?
Good one. It doesn't believe in anything - until it does - for it's own purposes/use.
Would be funny if it weren't so sad
True - it "would" be sad - if it was not a tactic - so - instead it is pretty funny.
I personally don't care what the rules are as much as justice prevails and everyone is treated equally in front of the judge.
Here, in town, at court, etc. Anywhere really. #Justice4All
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But you acknowledge your Harassing, & trolling,as well as your self appointed secret Partisan Political thought Police force....... officer?
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Go back to the comedy that you and Goatin are currently enacting. Wouldn't want you to lose your train of thought.
As wonderful as it may be, I would still like my questions answered. Unfortunately, that's something direct democracy advocates rarely do. They talk about the benefits, but are afraid to discuss the potential pitfalls.
https://occupywallst.org/forum/richard-wolff-on-economic-inequality/#comment-1045593
Thanks. I saw your post, and agree that those questions regarding direct democracy need further exploration before we can go ahead. We may not agree on the 'degree' of exploration, though.
I don't think we necessarily have to have every single detail worked out before we can start. I agree wholeheartedly with 'struggleforfreedom's' view of how we can, and in many cases already are going forward now, and not get bogged down for a decade or more discussing the minutiae of every policy. It's not necessary to do that to get started. Basic principles and ideas are enough. The online democratic polling system is a great way to then continue on the road to working out what comes next, so long as the polling system and decision making power has safeguards in place to ensure that the democratic structure cannot be infiltrated or eclipsed in any way.
https://occupywallst.org/forum/richard-wolff-on-economic-inequality/#comment-1045607
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Please officer, do we have to ban them?
Clearly that is a 2nd degree thought crime but I urge you to be merciful in your Partisan Politics Policing.
Ban who? Who's talking about banning people?
Sorry officer.
"Please don't cane me!"
I was not caning you. I have no idea what you are talking about.
I was discussing direct democracy, and you came in with unrelated ideas like banning and canning, etc...
Direct democracy sounds awesome, but these points worry me.
1) How do we solve the problem of micromanagement? When every small decision is voted upon, the machine moves very slowly. Isn't that the advantage of hierarchies? To speed up decision making and actions? Should everyone get involved in crazy micromanagement, or should we find a happy middle ground? This is the problem that affected Occupy GAs. Were you there? Decisions could no longer be made. Complete freeze.
2) How do we deal with false representatives? That happens when some people cannot go to voting meetings, or choose not too. What usually happens from my experience with GA is that only a few become regulars. They attend all the time. It's their life hobby. Most people have other things they feel is more important. Also for learning about issues. Not everyone can spend their days getting informed about what is going on in politics. So, it ends up that those who attend GA regularly and get informed in detail end up having more power and they essentially are representatives even if we haven't voted them in. Also, there is no rotation system, so they basically stay in place forever. We have seen that with occupy. This very site for example where jart has full control since the beginning.
3) How do we solve the Democratic Reform Trilemma? This has been bothering me for a time now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy#Democratic_reform_trilemma
4) You say we could do small scale direct democracy now. I tend to agree, but the question is why aren't we doing it? Shouldn't Occupy do that if we are going to ask others to do it? Shouldn't this forum run in that way? I mean, here you are asking for direct democracy on a forum which is organized like a dictatorship. That is a problem for me. I think we need to clean our house before asking others to have direct democracy.
It doesn't have to be a system in which you vote on absolutely everything. There are many ways to organize the workplace democratically without making it inefficient. There can be creative and artistic freedom etc in an institution, without having to resort to undemocratic, hierarchical employer/employee relations. There are successful co-ops all over the place (as you can see from the videos I linked to), so we know that workplace democracy works.
Building direct democracy is being done right now. Worker-run co-ops are growing in number all over the place. Not enough people have joined the struggle to create a more participatory democracy, but that can change. But that takes time and hard work.
How much individuals want to participate should, in my view, be voluntary -- at least as much as possible. But if that creates problems for the specific institution, participation could be made mandatory -- a task that's required of you in order to work there (in the same way you're required to show up on time and so on) Again, there are many ways to organize a democratic workplace; there aren't any magic keys, people have tofind solutions based on the specific situation they're in.
I don't know how Justine and here friends control this website. But if you really are concerned with this site being run democratically by the mods and creators (as well as the users?), then you should definitely be concerned with a much more important issue: democratizing the important economic institutions, so that they are run democratically by the workers and the communities. Are you? If so, why arn't you spending time advocating that instead?
the economic system is full of itself
circulation is absolutely necessary but money is neither product or service
You think trying to discuss potential pitfalls of direct democracy like the Democratic Reform Trilemma is a sign of being against direct democracy?
I think wanting to discuss those problems in order to attempt to solve them is advocating for direct democracy.
It's sad you don't realize that. People who study at university, etc.... come to a point where they realize it's ok to discuss the potential problems of ideas and concepts we care about. Actually, discussing those potential problems shows great care for us scholars. It's how we try to ameliorate those ideas and concepts.
What is your field of study and your level of education? I'm simply curious.
Only Justine, not her friends.
She does things like remove the ability for new users to sign up thereby limiting the forum's reach. I think everyone should have a say for such big decisions like locking down the forum so new users aren't accepted. Don't you?
Oh, it's you, Trashy?
So have you been posting anything related to libertarian socialism (what you claim to be a huge supporter of) here lately? If so, can you show me? Or have you just been attacking other users and trid to stir things up -- you know, things that trolls do?
I think it's great that the sign up is closed. What the mods should do is let the sign-in be available one day every month, and closed on all other days. That way new people who want to participate will be able to do so eventually. And if some of them turn out to be trolls that only want to provoke, split hairs, create confusion, spread misinformation and so on, they'll get banned, and have to wait a whole month to create a new account.
[Removed]
I have. Unfortunately, my posts on the topic have been banned. There was one on how OWS should support people who want to start anarcho syndicalist based co-ops for example.
Anyhow, I have nothing to prove to you.
Just here I tried to discuss the topic of direct democracy with you by asking legitimate questions and raising legitimate pitfalls (pitfalls talked about by many scholars). And what do you do instead of trying to discuss this, you just call me a troll. Nice.
Sure but
1) Signup is closed forever, not open once a week.
2) Trolls on this site are not banned like you say they are. Look at the Twinkle Team for example. They trolled for ages without ever getting banned. Ages.
Your idea here is interesting, having it open once a week.
Still, I believe the community should decide this together. I don't think jart should make decisions for all of us. If we want a forum to encourage others to use direct democracy, then we should use it ourselves right here. Let's show everyone direct democracy works.
“I have. Unfortunately, my posts on the topic have been banned. There was one on how OWS should support people who want to start anarcho syndicalist based co-ops for example.”
Really? That’s strange. I’ve been here from the start, and I’ve been posting lots of things on cooperatives and libertarian socialism. But I’ve never been banned, none of my comments have been removed, none of my posts have been removed. So how can this be?
Could you PM me the text that was removed? Let me read it.
“Just here I tried to discuss the topic of direct democracy with you by asking legitimate questions and raising legitimate pitfalls (pitfalls talked about by many scholars). And what do you do instead of trying to discuss this, you just call me a troll. Nice.”
I answered the problems you addressed. I have actually not called you a troll thruout this conversation, I asked you if you’ve engaged in activities that trolls typically engage in.
All I’ve seen from you lately is you attacking other users. Nothing else. No focus on workers’ rights, minimum wage, making the economy more democratic etc –important things, just complaints about the “twinkle team” and the ones who vote Democrats (which by the way I would do as well if I lived in the U.S. The party is in the pockets of the rich, but a little less so then the other party)
“Signup is closed forever, not open once a week.”
How do you know that? Anyways, I was just making a suggestion.
“Trolls on this site are not banned like you say they are. Look at the Twinkle Team for example. They trolled for ages without ever getting banned. Ages.”
Ridiculous ranters like ZenDog should have been banned much earlier, here I agree with you. But seriously, you’re obsessed about the “twinkle team” All I hear from you is “twinkleteam this, twinkleteam that” The Mad Dog is gone, move along. Stop obsessing about a couple of Democratic voters, and start focusing on the important issues: workers’ rights, the environment, ending economic inequality, ending capitalism. If it’s true that you’re a libertarian socialist, then you should start focusing on these things. Instead I see things like this. And then you act all surprised when I suspect you’re a troll..
“Your idea here is interesting, having it open once a week.”
Not once a week, once a month.
“I don't think jart should make decisions for all of us.”
Just because you create an account on a website, doesn’t necessarily mean you should have a say in how the site’s organized – especially not if you’re acting like a troll.
https://occupywallst.org/forum/richard-wolff-on-economic-inequality/#comment-1045582
No it doesn't, and some people will agree with the idea of a jartocracy. I disagree. I believe we need to teach by example. If we want to advocate for the merits of direct democracy as an organizational tool, I believe we should be using that tools ourselves. If you disagree that's fine. I was only expressing my opinion on the matter.
No, you have not. I have never read anything by you on the problem of the Democratic Reform Trilemma, the problems of micromanagement, of false representatives, etc...
I don't have it saved unfortunately. It was a text about how OWS should start promoting the use of anarcho syndicalism at the workplace.
Well, I would say the opposite is strange. Most people here have been banned at one point. You are one of the very few who haven't I guess. Odin, a great anarchist who took part in many OWS was banned. As was penguento, another active anarchist. It doesn't mean anything. Odin was banned quick, ZenDog wasn't. Whatever. It does not matter.
If you go by who was banned to decide who is a troll, you're not doing it right.
https://occupywallst.org/forum/richard-wolff-on-economic-inequality/#comment-1045582
You’re not a leftist. You’re a troll, a pretender and provocateur. This conversation is over. Troll.
Lol, OK. Go around calling people trolls instead of actually discussing things. Good one. It's sad you don't even want to discuss what you post about every time.
[+] -4 points by oneeyedjack (-33) from Queens, NY 16 hours ago
I'm not convinced wealth inequality is such a problem. Why do you think it's problem?
↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink
https://occupywallst.org/forum/richard-wolff-on-economic-inequality/#comment-1045582
Spoken like a true socialist, right?
You are a troll. I'm not feeding you anymore. Bye.
Socialism does not exclude wealth inequality. To each according to their deed (not their need like in communism).
Furthermore, I think of flexibility of thought is important.
I believe in socialism in the sense that everyone should lead decent lives, everyone should be able to study for free, and everyone should be able to eat, to get health care, etc...
However, I don't believe wealth inequality has much to do with that at all.
What's important is the base of society. Are people getting enough to eat, to study, to have health care, to live happy lives. Whether there is wealth inequality does not answer that.
A country where everyone is equally poor is not better off than one where the vast majority of people are well off and a few are extremely wealthy.
Wealth inequality is basically a false problem. On its own it means nothing.
The goal should not be to have wealth equality. That's the wrong way to look at it. The goal should be that everyone lives good lives.
I'm still honestly confused as to why you think wealth inequality is such a big deal.
I suggest study:
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/apr/24/inequality-not-problem/
"You mean if someone doesn't fit 100% in the definition of anarcho-syndicalist you consider him a troll?"
No. That's not what I said. I said that no anarcho-syndicalist would say things like "economic inequality is not a big problem"
"You shouldn't call someone a troll just because he doesn't share all the same ideas you have."
This is not about some small nuanced differences. Saying things like "economic inequality is not a problem" and "we need leaders" is totally inconsistent with anarcho-syndicalist and libertarian socialist principles.
"If you think I'm a troll then ignore me"
I don't think; I know. Will do.
I guess I'm nor your everyday anarcho-syndicalist then. Who cares?
I'm sure most people don't have views and opinions that always fit in a nice little labelled box. And guess what, that's fine!
And, that's exactly why intelligent people like to discuss ideas instead of just saying - "Hi, I'm an anarcho syndicalist, read this book to know everything I think. Bye."
Hold on soldier, don't just slip words into my mouth. I never once said we needed leaders. Never once.
Geez, I keep saying how this site should be run democratically and how everyone should be equal. How it shouldn't be run by one person.
Don't lie man, that's ain't cool.
If you want to call me a troll instead of discussing ideas, fine. But then just ignore me, that's what you should do with trolls.
You wont find any anarcho-syndicalist saying "I'm not convinced wealth inequality is such a problem".
You're providing more and more evidence of what you are: a hair-splitting, provocative, lying troll.
You mean if someone doesn't fit 100% in the definition of anarcho-syndicalist you consider him a troll? That's kind of lame. Honestly. You shouldn't call someone a troll just because he doesn't share all the same ideas you have.
If you think I'm a troll then ignore me, if you want to discuss like an adult then let's discuss ideas.
I am a founding member of the Open Source Initiative and worked on the first Wikipedia team. I also give talks in the valley about cutting down on hierarchies. Apple and Google have been doing this, becoming more and more horizontal.
What have you done for advocating, apart from writing the same post over and over again on this barely read forum?
Of course the anonymity of this forum negates the importance of self professed "advocating"
Are you making the case that you are somehow better, or your opinion is more valid because your alleged self professed anonymous credentials?
Please, no one is more important than the decent hard working average citizen.
Not at all. I'm no better than anyone, just sharing ideas here.
I was responding to strugglefrofreedom80's cheap attack with his usually snarky rhetorical questions.
People on this forum should not be asked to prove themselves.
It's just a place to share ideas.
Whatever you say officer.
Is SFF80 the next target of your Partisan Politics (thought) Police?
No, SFF80 is not a Democrat shill like you and DKAtoday.
I see officer, You don't speak for me (or DKA) though right? I reject your partisan description of me, & support tolerance in political thought/expression.
Is it only democrats you are targeting?
Are you also the judge & jury, as well as PPPolice officer too?
All self appointed I guess, but secret. Secret Partisan Political (thought) Police!!
You're so funny.
No, I certainly don't speak for you and I never claimed I did.
You may well reject my partisan description of you, that's fine. I'll continue to share it. It's my opinion and I am entitled to it.
Nope, all people involved in the system whether democrat, republican or other.
The system is broken, we need a new one. Anyone merely fighting against the actors and not the stage are no occupiers.
"clean house"? Watch out!!! the Partisan Politics Police are comin after us!!!!
"M'hands up. Don't shoot"
"Is there a problem hear officer?'
micro management is how current managers fill their time and maintain their position
I suspect if the people on hand were to make the decisions, the process would be less bulky
Richard Wolff supports the Climate March
Richard D. Wolff @profwolff Capitalism causes unsustainable environmental damage, gross #economicinequality, & #politicalcorruption. System change is the solution!
Yes, Richard Wolff is very good. He would say the Dems and Reps are much the same, too.
"System change is the solution!" Why, yes it is. That is why we need to change our political system altogether. It just isn't working with two parties that differ so slightly that the people are given no choice!
In fact he HAS said those very words.
Throw the bums out! We need a new political/economic system if we hope to save the planet & humanity.
So much work ahead. That's why distractions like debating karma points, & McCarthy tactics to repress speech should be avoided.
Don't you think?
Are you schizophrenic?
Let me add to this that the floodwallstreet people are a little more correct, because attacking capitalism is the right thing to do.
What is happening to the environment is a direct result of the affects of capitalism. Strike at the roots! Flood Wall Street!
I agree.
On the substance.
(not with your medical diagnosis/gratuitous vicious namecalling)
You do know that occupy participated in the Peoples Climate March and we are hopeful that we will get more protesters at the flood as a result of this great historic, meaningful march. right?
Because the "more correct" flooders recognize that we MUST coalesce & join with ALL non violent like minded groups.
A little more important than how moderation is done on this forum no?
Quit pretending that you are for ideas such as those of Richard Wolff, and then on the other hand pointing the finger and calling people on this forum who espouse the ideas of Richard Wolff, trolls. Frankly, it makes you seem specious and capricious and more. Can't figure out who you really are or what you really stand for. If true, that you believe in the kind of change Wolff calls for, then why do you cause all the division here that you do?
I support Prof Wolff ideas. I also support freedom of expression. It isn't divisive to request substance over distraction, & to plead for an end to concern troll McCarthyism.
I can't say anyone believes anything specific and so I am NOT pointing fingers at anyone for their beliefs. I guess you added that false position to me 'cause you can't honestly argue my actual stated position? (can you say strawman?)
I'm pointing @ distractions & intolerance of expressing ideas.
We have agreed on this in the past, Your misfortunate you disagree now.
Peace
Try to allow others to post in peace as well.
Already do that. Simply attempting (very rarely) to moderate the concern trolls irrelevant distractions & the intolerant partisan policing.
You provide a defense for them (not based in truth I must say). However, my sense of right & wrong means we will have to agree to disagree.
All of the above is unjust, illogical, immoral, and inexcusable. It's true even after you account for what the rich 'give back'.
No excuses. No exceptions. The richest 1% are too rich. They should be regarded as pigs, referred to as pigs and treated like pigs.
Instead, we keep giving them our money.
http://www.forbes.com/pictures/eegi45lfkk/the-worlds-25-highest-paid-musicians/
The Greater Depression will be underway by 2020 at the very latest. Probably sooner.
Buy never mind all that. U2 is on tour. Ch'Ching!
I'm not convinced wealth inequality is such a problem. Why do you think it's problem?
R.Wolff is one of my Idols.Strug/for80 beat me to my comment just now.I have never heard him confirm or deny that he is Communist.I need to review the early history of the Comintern,because I seem to recall there was a huge quarrel followed by a 2 year hiatus after which events the Comintern reconvened with either a marginalized Marx,or Marx walked out/was not invited.Something like that.I don't think Marx was down with the bossy,ruthless,officious types that got control of the Comintern.For sure Marx would not have been cool with Bolshevic Elasticity.He was a very upright and moral person by all accounts.Democracy at work is the way to go.IMHO.R.W. has a very good point when he says that we could do that without killing what is good about markets.
More Wolff
https://www.freespeech.org/video/richard-wolff-americas-taboo
Solidarity
Looking forward to the Economic update for September-Vincit Qui Patitur.
Sounds great.
The Monthly Updates contain a great deal of useful information and solid analysis.Apparently RW is suddenly in great demand as a speaker and even the TP has tried to get him for their meetings.He says he considered going to speak to them & got cold feet on account of not being able to face people with appalling attitudes such as are held by many of the TP civilians-LOL!
He is always entertaining/informative when speaking at the old Brecht.
Miss that place
He really is salty&common sense.I have tried to get some of the locals here to listen to the Economic Updates,but the people go to sleep instantly.A great disappointment and puzzling-he has a masterful grasp of the subject matter,but it's me they will listen to on the same subjects with a far less coherent way of speaking and presentation.Must be the deep seated mistrust of Academics,people who are even remotely Europeanish,or maybe even people who might be sort of Jewishy.idk...To me,RW is not an elite seeming person.
He is not elitist, definitely. Unfortunately many people need car crashes, vampires, sports, or real housewives to stay interested.
Slowly more people will get interested.
Keep fighting
LOL! I have been called both a Train Wreck AND a Vampire! LOL! Maybe that's why they listen to me!
C'mon no body listens to us. But eventually they will all remember what we've been sayin.
They do listen.That is a measure of how scared they are,and how abandoned they are by anyone who takes their concerns seriously.In order to persuade people not to listen to populist rhetoric,they would have to do something to help them-shutting down the Congress and blowing hot air about Commies,Abortions,The Gay and Mexicans ain't gonna cut it no more.They have to actually do something to help substantially and they won't.They won't fix infrastructure,or save USPS,or rescue underwater mortgage holders,or address climate change,or do any other thing that will help their constituents.They won't function as a legislative body because their real constituents are better off with a Congress that is totally dysfunctional.Spewing more BS won't hide that fact.
Half of pols chant the mantra "gov don't work" & as such subvert, starve, seek to destroy any gov service that helps the 99%.
Finally when services falter because oftheir actions they point & say "see! We told you gov don't work!"
Like they did with VA. Was happy to see them forced to vote for almost $20billion for VA after their efforts to cut it.
Not enough but very satisfying
Tangled webs can get so complicated that even the Evil Spiders who spin them get caught up.Simple is better than complex every time,no matter what you are trying to do.Some kinds of activities don't can't be engaged in without all the complications-such as Deception.Only goes just so far before tying up in knots.
It's inevitable that the elites will fail, but only if we stay focused, grow the movement and persist
Keep on thinking about all we can do.The possibilities are endless.I believe the Elites need to be exposed to some Public Mockery.Lots and lots of it,actually.
'Public Mockery', town square humiliation, of elites is critical, Internet has begun to facilitate that important tool.
Maturation of that effort still to come. Think ice bucket challenge & embarrassing conspicuous consumption/greed/exploitation/inequity
The Derision and Mockery is about to get underway.One of the more fun things that we must do.The American People expect & demand it.
Deride & Mock fossil fuel corps @ The peoples Climate March on 9/21.
http://peoplesclimate.org/march/
Richard Wolff on Climate Change:
Addressing a question about capitalism and climate change, Wolff says, “Capitalism is a system geared up to doing three things on the part of business: get more profits, grow your company and get a larger market share… If along the way they have to sacrifice either the well-being of their workers or the well-being of the planet or the environmental conditions, they may feel very bad about it — and I know plenty who do — but they have no choice.”
http://billmoyers.com/segment/richard-wolff-on-capitalisms-destructive-power/
Be Counted!
Unplug the Unholy Death Machine,already!
"We have a rigged system"
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2014/06/03/climate-change-economic-inequality-are-one-debate-says-sen-warren
Economic inequality, & climate change are interconnected.
join the Peoples Climate March & #floodwallst.
Solidarity
I would LOVE to be in NYC right now! I had to choose Occupy 3 or Flood Wall Street.It was a very hard choice,but there really was no way I could fail to appear at Zucotti on S17.The activists there told me that there is no way I can fail to appear at 50th&6th Ave. on Oct.8 to protest the World Business Forum.This will be difficult to arrange-in terms of the money and covering my work.Miss a chance to scream at the foul,filthy scum who are causing ALL of our problems? I think not.I am going to be there no matter the difficulty.At least it's doable.I don't live to awfully far away.Arrangements can be made.So I will be there,even though I will have to go straight back and get on a train heading North by Northwest.Exhausting.
That's more than most do.
Good luck, You're good efforts are appreciated.
Some economic inequality stats for your perusal.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/09/18/income-inequality-last-year-rose-in-15-states/
The fights continues, it will take years of hard work in the streets & the ballot box to improve these injustices.
Peace, happy trails.
Thanks&cheers!-Vincit Qui Patitur.
Thank YOU!
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/19251/19-09-2014/16-million-vote-yes-in-a-working-class-revolt-against-austerity
related sorta'
Heartbreak Hotel-again.There is just no way they will get out until there is not one single drop of oil left that can be harvested.Nice try.I can't believe anyone would believe Cameron's Lies,or accept the barren Old Bones he threw.It is coming out that the vote count was rigged.That is no surprise.The Scots are being held hostage.
I think they are better off together but that is because I reject the "you're on your own" philosophy.
We are stronger together. The Scots must get better representation, more autonomy but all countries of Great Britain can benefit from each other.
insofar as north sea oil is concerned. I support ending ALL drilling/burning of fossil fuels so.....
Which country executes/benefits not so important to me.
Part of it is Scots want to get their hands on that money.The Brent is in decline and will be all done in 10 years.The coal and oil should be left in the ground as of yesterday,and the gas phased out along with nuclear ASAP.The only burning allowed should be for Ag and essential transport until that can go electric.We had our chance to do a gradual transition.It was blocked by the 1%.Now a rapid transition must take place,and I'm afraid many people will die because of it.
Agreed. Money is a big part of the Scots desire for secession.
End drilling, stop burning, & save our lives.
We ARE stronger together.
Peace
I saw him on HBO recently.
Radical, unashamed admitted communist, intelligent, And earnest.
Even funny.
We can all learn and benefit from ideas that have been demonized.
I think he'd prefer "marxist", rather than "communist". He's not a communist in the sense many Americans think of the word. He leans towards libertarian marxism / libertarian socialism. In other words, not a big and powerful state (aka leninism etc), but real socialism: workers and communities controlling the economic institutions collectively and democratically.
His thoughts on worker owned businesses here, and the effort to end tax giveaways to corporations is most interesting.
And of course his outrage at austerity policies are what needs to spread.
I wish more thought as he does.
Wealthy cheaters exposed
http://nyti.ms/1JHdOnL
The very wealthiest families are able to quietly shape tax policy that will allow them to shield millions, if not billions, of their income using maneuvers available only to several thousand Americans.
Climate action improves Inequity.
Great post
''Occupy Movement Gets Its Own TV Station'' :
''A representative of the leaderless Occupy movement says, "Today we can see the media obstruction in our own streets. Occupy is best used as a verb than as a brand. Therefore we, the 99%, occupy television to provide an outlet for our many voices. The media united will never be defeated. The natural formation of ideologies within the partisan divide works against a common goal. This new effort allows We the People to identify the root cause of problems with an objective focus and various approaches." & to share and view brilliant and instructive videos like your excellent Prof. R.D. Wolff link. Solidarity sff80.
fiat lux ...
The more channels there are to spread the core values of occupy, the better. All initiatives are helpful.
''The cause of global economic decline is not China but rather the capitalist contradiction that could no longer be postponed by credit extension. Lower wages for workers allow capitalists to profit, until those workers no longer have disposable income to spend.'' - from:
Best wishes & seasons' solidarity sff/Andy. God jul & godt nytt ar & hoping all good with you and yours.
per aspera ad astra ...
Re. ''Occupy-TV'', I agree and thus, also fyi - I append :
Btw, is it me Andy, or are your 'points' frozen and are you now starting each comment with '0' points ?!!! I know that it's not the 'Eurovision Song Contest' & that you aren't probably bothered by shit like that but I do NOT like the capricious unfairness of it !! Solidarity !
pax, amor et lux ...
yep, everytime I make a comment, I immediately receive 0 karma points. I don't know why, but I can't help thinking this Trashy-guy might have something to do with it. It started at a time when he was very active here. I might be wrong, though. Maybe it's something else that's causing it.
It doesn't bother me, though. I don't care much about the karma-points.
You should send a query to the admin. If only because - if you make a good comment that is liked - the missing initial point might well keep it from reaching the best comment board where it will be easier for others to see.
I can't find a decent recording of this song
oh wait
This is very positive news. Thanks.
This revolution has become so much more than just Occupy. That's good as it makes it far more difficult to subvert. The realization that grass-root groups have to put differences aside and work together if we are to be successful is well underway. While I do hope Occupy plays a major role in our revolution....if it just turns out just to be a "verb", that's alright with me. I will always be grateful though to Occupy for having woken up so many people; for giving us hope, and for reminding us we are not alone...
"This revolution has become so much more than just Occupy." !!! Bingo !! Solidarity !
per aspera ad astra ...
Solidarity my friend....
Solidarity & on this Labor Day ...
''Labor’s Demise Is America’s Demise - Thoughts for Labor Day'', by Dr. Paul Craig Roberts http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39549.htm &
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/25919-labor-day-victories-to-celebrate by Dean Baker
pax et lux ...