Forum Post: Reverse Outsourcing - Bring back all the jobs - Occupy outsourcers
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 16, 2011, 1:03 a.m. EST by ray8888
(6)
from Elizabeth, NJ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Excessive Outsourcing - Excessive Greed by Wall Street CEOs - Kick backs from Outsourcers to Wall Street CEOs - Resulted in too many jobs outsourced...Too much unemployment.. reverse outsourcing..bring back crucial jobs that's bread and butter to AMERICA...Let's rebuild this country...
Buy superior quality Made In USA products. Sometimes the initial costs may be more, however it will save you money over the long run from replacement costs. Support American jobs, not jobs in China.
Haha.. superior? What makes you think ALL American products are superior to any Chinese or Japanese or Korean products? Could you provide me with some data to support your claim?
In no particular order...
Health industtry, your health data , leagal data out sourced and proccessed in india
Thanks for the list. Do you see anything common with all of these? They are all products which are significantly high up the value chain in their respective categories, these are products that required some sort of ingenuity or R&D.
So our competitiveness lies in our intellectual capital rather than price cuts. Which is why,say, Gulf Stream does not outsource it's production. Because the consumer is high end, require a good product and is ready to pay a premium for it.
Which is why I would say that it is futile to protect jobs which do not add much value, BPOs and IT services. Those are low end, require less skills and price is the most important factor. We need to look into areas where we can differentiate based on the product and not price.
India and China and the other Asian tigers cannot compete with us in R&D. We are leaps and bounds ahead of them. And we are also protected by patents. That's our competitive advantage. And our education system should be preparing people to do these kind of jobs. So while GM would need to outsource it's production, Mercedes still has factories in the US because it does not compete on price.
I agree! Demand trade tariffs and tax the hell out of any outsourcers! Demand industrialism all over again. Solar energy would create lots of jobs as is dramatized briefly in the following animation whose keywords are "oil storm solar" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpVoO60N6mg
Disagree. We don't want a trade war.
Note the World Trade Organization (WTO) rules only specify that competing products have equal and fair access to our markets. If the American consumer chooses not to buy foreign products, we haven't violated any trade rules and nobody can retaliate.
"If the American consumer chooses not to buy foreign products"
I can only surmise, by this comment, that you don't shop much.
Actually, my entire extended family and many friends managed to be 100% American this year for Christmas. Based on my post and the comments at http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-power-of-the-people/ , I created a web-site linking people to leiterally thousands of products that are still made in the US. Unfortunately, the site provider shut me down last week for "terms of service" after I was approaching a thousand hits and I still haven't been told what exactly I did wrong. I'm planning to put the site back up soon elsewhere.
Most who commented on my consumer guidelines web-site responded they were shocked at how many products are still made in the US. We've certainly lost most of our choices in the personal electronics realm, but there are still options in most other areas. At one point, I was trying to get the Occupy movement to e-mail Larry Page and Sergey Brin at Google promising we would buy a US made Android phone if he made one. I don't think many did.
Trade tariffs do not work it was tried before with disastrous results.
You need to read up on the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act of 1930.
The most dangerous thing which is poisoning this country is BPO and KPO ( Business and Knowledge process outsourcing ). Every big, medium and small corporate outsourced their business processes mindlessly and caused this meltdown. There are no checks and balances to how much you can outsource. What is the solution to this ?
Do not buy products from companies who outsource.
So BPOs and KPOs caused meltdown? How exactly? How many Americans have been employed in the BPO industry? For that matter, how many of us even wanted to work in a BPO. We shunned those jobs because they paid very less.
Establish laws at the local level http://occupywallst.org/forum/american-prosperity-initiative/ and create co-ops, more specifically, the 'CoMart'.
Actually, we don't have to compete with the Chinese on low cost consumer goods. There are a lot of high-tech industrial/infrastructural kinds of products that they want to buy from us, such as machine tools.
We could tool up our factories to make these, and get rich selling them to the Chinese, it would also allow us to re-develop our manufacturing base, to eventually manufacture our own consumer goods as well.
This would be a means of going from "co-dependence" to "co-independence" with the Chinese. It would allow both of our economies to become more self sufficient.
The only problem is that many of the products the Chinese want to buy are considered "dual use", that is, they could also be used to make weapons. However, in the thousands of years of it's history, China has never fought an aggressive war with the west. War is against their Confucian philosophy.
I used to teach English in China, and wanted to develop a program to encourage direct communication by Skype between Chinese and US citizens as a means of reducing our mutual fears. Perhaps someday...
Third world America
For two years my wife has been sub-contracting for an Indian company that contracts to an American publisher to provide editing services. American publishers have made the profession of editing so cheap that Indian companies hire Americans cheaper than American do.
Excellent this is the only way to go ahead ban out sourcing
China willing to work harder and smarter than some lazy entitled Americans Jobs go where its cheaper inTOTAL (cost plus supply chain plus risk of knockoffs) So you need to add value to what you do And don't say Chinese are forced to unless you've been there and studied their businesses And don't say it's because they copy...Apple copies the Walkman...but did it better
collecting poll data here > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?hl=en_US&pli=1&formkey=dFlNNHJTRlZwMWs5ZjlhTWN0NlZReHc6MQ#gid=0
we need solutions, not just protests
The protest IS the solution.
You the consumer are the reason for outsourcing. Are you willing to pay more for an American made item? Because manufacturers have to pay American employees a higher hourly wage than foreign workers are willing to work for, therefore they have to charge more to sell American made goods. Every time you purchase the lower priced item, made overseas you reinforce outsourcing.
This is another myth perpetuated by the right - American guilt of wanting a good deal.
Remember who started out-sourcing, OK? Business, quietly beginning with the garment industry. Name brands snuck across borders years before we really realized what was going on. They didn't move everything in one week and make a big announcement. They were stealth and this was happening for years without notice.
My jeans didn't get cheaper when the plant moved to Mexico - their costs went down dramatically but not their prices. Things eventually start to go bad and Americans started looking for bargains but by that time most of our stuff is off-shored.
You have to go to a great deal of trouble and expense to buy American Made now. Look around your house... you won't find much of anything made here. We didn't ask for this. We didn't even know it was happening until it got to be too late for most manufacturers.
The repukes and the Dems are equally to blame for this. The difference I see is that the Dems get what a terrible thing this was and now admit it and are trying to help. The repukes won't lift a finger unless they make a buck. Citizens can't afford to buy them off. The only PACs with money that care about the middle class and poor are Union PACs and repukes are doing everything they can to destroy them - as are some of you less enlightened here.
Americans are patriotic by nature. We didn't connive to weaken our economy. The middle and poor classes were too busy putting food on the table, taking care of business. If we're guilty of anything it was being unaware - just the way the repukes and big business want us. We know alot more now - capish?
Nikes are assembled overseas and they ain't cheap.
ITA, if youre willing to pay 10-20% more for your "stuff", then you are right
Slightly off topic but still in the same category ... illegal immigrants/workers are a common thing in my line of work. I personally don't hire them but i would love if some regulations were in place to stop others from doing it. This alone would create 100,000's of thousands of jobs... And they are far from minimum wage jobs also. Labor intensive yes but not minimum wage.
Immigration to US, legal and illegal has actually been declining in the last few years.
On top of that, many states have pass anti-immigration laws, but the number of unemployed is still going up. By no means does correlation equals causation, I'm just saying.
I'm not at all saying it will fix the problem. What I'm talking about that is specific to my industry, it's just a drop in the bucket. There is a much larger problem that i don't have all the answers to.
Understood; I was just pointing out a few things.
Corporate tax rates are lower overseas so of course they make stuff outside of US. Lower US corporate tax rates
I realize it's only one case, but GE paid $0 federal taxes in 2010. Those tax loopholes and breaks are awesome, eh?
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/general-electric-paid-federal-taxes-2010/story?id=13224558
GE followed the current tax laws as written by congress. If a company permanently invest profits earned overseas then no tax is paid in the US. In a that's the law, it's not a loop hole or illegal.
I never claimed they did anything illegal. Taking advantage of loopholes in the law is not illegal. Please don't put words in my mouth.
So GE made NO profit in the US in 2010?
Whoa not meant that way. The word loophole sound like it's a bad thing, when it's a perfectly legal tax election. In the US GE had credits to offset US taxes, I believe. The credits are part of the tax regs
well hmm, at some point we have to outsource.
where?
if we say, bring back all the manufacturing jobs, and we do.
and they still rely on steel that we buy from the mills in china. so we say, bring back all the milling jobs, and we do.
and the milling jobs still rely on raw ore. so we say, bring back all the mining jobs, and we do.
but they still rely on energy and fuel and oil, so we say, bring back all the oil & gas jobs. and we do.
but we don't have that much oil or gas or steel or precious metals to keep the economy running! but we need to keep these mining jobs and these milling jobs and these drilling jobs so we close our borders and live completely on our own resources.
that sounds like north korea, doesn't it?
Did you know Apple manufactures all 100percent of their products overseas.
Not true, no. They also have manufacturing in Taiwan, and in Brazil. Apple's high-skill, high-pay jobs are in the US. But they have trouble recruiting skilled American workers just like all American tech firms do, because American kids aren't training for the right skills.
Not so.
NCES U.S. Citizen and Permanent Resident STEM Related Degrees Conferred 2008 and 2009 Citizenship (standardized): U.S. Citizens and Permanent Residents
2-digit Classification of Instructional Program (CIP): 10 Communications Technologies/Technicians and Support Services Doctorate Degrees: 6 Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 0 Master's Degrees: 752 Bachelor's Degrees: 9,760 Associate's Degrees: 8,904 Total 2008 and 2009: 19,422
2-digit Classification of Instructional Program (CIP): 11 Computer and Information Sciences and Support Services Doctorate Degrees: 974 Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 423 Master's Degrees: 19,387 Bachelor's Degrees: 73,795 Associate's Degrees: 57,910 Total 2008 and 2009: 152,489
2-digit Classification of Instructional Program (CIP): 27 Mathematics and Statistics Doctorate Degrees: 1,001 Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 456 Master's Degrees: 6,349 Bachelor's Degrees: 29,343 Associate's Degrees: 1,698 Total 2008 and 2009: 38,847
Grand Total Doctorate Degrees: 1,981 Grand Total Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 879 Grand Total Master's Degrees: 26,488 Grand Total Bachelor's Degrees: 112,898 Grand Total Associate's Degrees: 68,512 Grand Total NCES U.S. Citizen and Permanent Resident Computer/Mathematics Degrees Conferred 2008 and 2009: 210,758
Source: National Center for Education Statistics (NCES)
Now, from the Foreign Labor Certification Annual Report, US Dept. of Labor, the computer-related occupations with more than 1000 Permanent (Residence) Labor Certifications are shown below, with the Office of Employment Statistics employment levels and Loss Gain:
OCC_Code: 15-1031 OCCUPATION WITH MORE THAN 1,000 PERMANENT LABOR CERTIFICATIONS: Computer Software Engineers, Applications Number of Certifications: 9,854 OES Employment May 2010: 499,280 OES Employment May 2009: 495,500 Employment Loss Gain: 3,780
OCC_Code: 15-1051 OCCUPATION WITH MORE THAN 1,000 PERMANENT LABOR CERTIFICATIONS: Computer Systems Analysts Number of Certifications: 5,695 OES Employment May 2010: 495,800 OES Employment May 2009: 512,720 Employment Loss Gain: (16,920)
OCC_Code: 15-1032 OCCUPATION WITH MORE THAN 1,000 PERMANENT LABOR CERTIFICATIONS: Computer Software Engineers,Systems Software Number of Certifications: 4,038 OES Employment May 2010: 378,920 OES Employment May 2009: 385,200 Employment Loss Gain: (6,280)
OCC_Code: 15-1021 OCCUPATION WITH MORE THAN 1,000 PERMANENT LABOR CERTIFICATIONS: Computer Programmers Number of Certifications: 1,536 OES Employment May 2010: 333,620 OES Employment May 2009: 367880 Employment Loss Gain: (34,260)
Employment Loss Gain (53,680)
Finally, below is a list of the top 10 Prevailing Wage Determination for foreign workers in computer-related fields; additionally, employment level data for 2009 and 2010 and a Loss Gain
Wage: $41.30 Prevailing Wage Determinations Most Frequent Users: Computer Software Engineers, Applications Num of PWD: 9,282 OES Employment May 2010: 499,280 OES Employment May 2009: 495,500 Employment Loss Gain: 3,780
Wage: $37.16 Prevailing Wage Determinations Most Frequent Users: Computer Systems Analysts Num of PWD: 3,330 OES Employment May 2010: 495,800 OES Employment May 2009: 512,720 Employment Loss Gain: (16,920)
Wage: $44.36 Prevailing Wage Determinations Most Frequent Users: Computer Software Engineers, Systems Software Num of PWD: 3,092 OES Employment May 2010: 378,920 OES Employment May 2009: 385,200 Employment Loss Gain: (6,280)
Wage: $32.52 Prevailing Wage Determinations Most Frequent Users: Computer Programmers Num of PWD: 1,101 OES Employment May 2010: 333,620 OES Employment May 2009: 367,880 Employment Loss Gain: (34,260)
Grand Total Employment Loss Gain: (53,680)
Source: Foreign Labor Certification Annual Report, US Dept of Labor
In the aggregate we have lost about 53,680 jobs in these "shortage" occupations. Even within the "growth" occupations, in almost all cases, foreign labor applicants exceeded employment growth; this fact absolutely disproves the thesis that "kids aren't training for the right skills" and that there is a "labor shortage".
You're using Labor Dept statistics after you rejected the Labor Dept statistics that I posted that show very low unemployment in the tech sector.
Believe what you want to believe, the simple fact is that I have to hire foreigners because I can't find Americans to hire. I really wish that I could and that's one of the reasons why I originally came here. I thought that I might find some smart people who might be interested in jobs. (That's not exactly what I found here.)
The difference is - I am quoting ACTUAL figures. What I refuted in another thread was the BLS PROJECTIONS that are always very wrong.
The simple fact is that you hire foreigners because you can get them on the cheap.
I told you that I pay them more than the average American hourly wage of $33/hr. So I'm not doing a very good job of finding cheap foreigners apparently. Why would I hire expensive foreigners? (Hint: tech sector job skills are rare and valuable.)
You speak of the American hourly wage for high-skilled web developers, but you don't mention what geographic location. What geographic location are you looking in?
If you know any good unemployed software developers in Miami or Las Vegas then please do let me know. Until I'll be struggling to get the job done with my best developer who is a Venezuelan guy who works from a resort hotel on a kite-surfing beach near Cozumel, in Mexico. Along with friends who he's introduced us to in Venezuela who have proven that they can get the job done. If an American ever proves that they can get the job done then they'll have a very promising career ahead of them. Odds are not good, it's a very competitive market, and big evil boogeyman corporations like Google and Facebook snap up all of the most-promising graduates.
So I outsource, and I successfully create jobs. Because our startup is profitable. So if you limit outsourcing then you limit a promising young tech startup's growth, which harms our economy, and which eliminates all possibility of us ever filling out our office with American engineers. Great idea?
The facts don't jibe with what you're saying.
You don't believe that I hire expensive foreigners? You don't believe that I have to hire expensive foreigners?
Have you ever tried to hire somebody to build a web site? You would understand what I mean if you had. It is not easy to be a tech recruiter right now.
Ok overseas, it's not a worker problem it's cheap labor and favorable tax treaties
Apple's high-paying, high-skill jobs are right here in the US, and recruitment for them is tough because there is a serious lack of available talent here. I hire foreign technology workers but I pay them more than the average American hourly wage of $33. Why would I do that if my goal were to save money? I do it because I have no choice, there aren't enough available American engineers.
Assembly is not high skilled
Their toys are assembled in other countries. The jobs here are software engineers, hardware engineers, industrial designers, graphic designers... Skilled jobs with high pay. Americans could have them -- if the only had the skills. But a skilled, unemployed American worker is not an easy thing to find. Unemployed non-skilled workers are obviously very common.
all IT work out scourced to india, all manufacturing out sourced to china, no wonder america is become third world country, stop out sourcing, bring back jobs back to amercia
You have to have American workers with the skills that employers need before that can happen.
I've thought so many times about the money spent per pupil in failing inner city schools and how that money could be used to directly train young people with the aptitude for careers in the technology field.
Yes, just teach kids to make web sites. It's a basic literacy requirement in the work that we live in. There is far more demand than available workers, and the effect snowballs as the Internet continues to grow.
If you're having a difficult time finding American citizens with the right skills, it isn't because there's a shortage of U.S. citizen or permanent resident candidates.
Generally, when a firm is looking for new STEM talent, they look to the colleges, here's a list of the degrees conferred in areas that are rich in STEM curriculum for 2008 and 2009.
NCES U.S. Citizen and Permanent Resident STEM Related Degrees Conferred 2008 and 2009 Citizenship (standardized): U.S. Citizens and Permanent Residents
2-digit Classification of Instructional Program (CIP): 10 Communications Technologies/Technicians and Support Services Doctorate Degrees: 6 Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 0 Master's Degrees: 752 Bachelor's Degrees: 9,760 Associate's Degrees: 8,904 Total 2008 and 2009: 19,422
2-digit Classification of Instructional Program (CIP): 11 Computer and Information Sciences and Support Services Doctorate Degrees: 974 Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 423 Master's Degrees: 19,387 Bachelor's Degrees: 73,795 Associate's Degrees: 57,910 Total 2008 and 2009: 152,489
2-digit Classification of Instructional Program (CIP): 27 Mathematics and Statistics Doctorate Degrees: 1,001 Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 456 Master's Degrees: 6,349 Bachelor's Degrees: 29,343 Associate's Degrees: 1,698 Total 2008 and 2009: 38,847
Grand Total Doctorate Degrees: 1,981 Grand Total Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 879 Grand Total Master's Degrees: 26,488 Grand Total Bachelor's Degrees: 112,898 Grand Total Associate's Degrees: 68,512 Grand Total NCES U.S. Citizen and Permanent Resident Computer/Mathematics Degrees Conferred 2008 and 2009: 210,758
Source: National Center for Education Statistics (NCES)
Now, from the Foreign Labor Certification Annual Report, US Dept. of Labor, the computer-related occupations with more than 1000 Permanent (Residence) Labor Certifications are shown below, with the Office of Employment Statistics employment levels and Loss Gain:
OCC_Code: 15-1031 OCCUPATION WITH MORE THAN 1,000 PERMANENT LABOR CERTIFICATIONS: Computer Software Engineers, Applications Number of Certifications: 9,854 OES Employment May 2010: 499,280 OES Employment May 2009: 495,500 Employment Loss Gain: 3,780
OCC_Code: 15-1051 OCCUPATION WITH MORE THAN 1,000 PERMANENT LABOR CERTIFICATIONS: Computer Systems Analysts Number of Certifications: 5,695 OES Employment May 2010: 495,800 OES Employment May 2009: 512,720 Employment Loss Gain: (16,920)
OCC_Code: 15-1032 OCCUPATION WITH MORE THAN 1,000 PERMANENT LABOR CERTIFICATIONS: Computer Software Engineers,Systems Software Number of Certifications: 4,038 OES Employment May 2010: 378,920 OES Employment May 2009: 385,200 Employment Loss Gain: (6,280)
OCC_Code: 15-1021 OCCUPATION WITH MORE THAN 1,000 PERMANENT LABOR CERTIFICATIONS: Computer Programmers Number of Certifications: 1,536 OES Employment May 2010: 333,620 OES Employment May 2009: 367880 Employment Loss Gain: (34,260)
Employment Loss Gain (53,680)
Finally, below is a list of the top 10 Prevailing Wage Determination for foreign workers in computer-related fields; additionally, employment level data for 2009 and 2010 and a Loss Gain
Wage: $41.30 Prevailing Wage Determinations Most Frequent Users: Computer Software Engineers, Applications Num of PWD: 9,282 OES Employment May 2010: 499,280 OES Employment May 2009: 495,500 Employment Loss Gain: 3,780
Wage: $37.16 Prevailing Wage Determinations Most Frequent Users: Computer Systems Analysts Num of PWD: 3,330 OES Employment May 2010: 495,800 OES Employment May 2009: 512,720 Employment Loss Gain: (16,920)
Wage: $44.36 Prevailing Wage Determinations Most Frequent Users: Computer Software Engineers, Systems Software Num of PWD: 3,092 OES Employment May 2010: 378,920 OES Employment May 2009: 385,200 Employment Loss Gain: (6,280)
Wage: $32.52 Prevailing Wage Determinations Most Frequent Users: Computer Programmers Num of PWD: 1,101 OES Employment May 2010: 333,620 OES Employment May 2009: 367,880 Employment Loss Gain: (34,260)
Grand Total Employment Loss Gain: (53,680)
Source: Foreign Labor Certification Annual Report, US Dept of Labor
In the aggregate we have lost about 53,680 jobs in these "shortage" occupations. Even within the "growth" occupations, in almost all cases, foreign labor applicants exceeded employment growth; this fact absolutely disproves the labor shortage thesis.
Won't work. Dumb idea. Fix the root of the problem, stop striking at the branches. America cannot compete in production anymore with china and India. Why? 2 reasons, see if you can figure them out.
Nope..
The only way you can put people back to work and bring food to the table is by controlling and stopping the excessive outsourcing. Right now the country is broke there is 1 in every 9 people out of work. Here are reasons.
1) You're not being open to competent. Any problem starts with self. 2) America was No.1 in production before 80% of production and manufacturing jobs were outsourced. 3) Lastly the root problem is fixing the mindset that we are no longer superpower and we need to compete with countries like china for everything.
I started a website 8 years ago. We were trying to start boycotting goods made outside the US. Lets do it again. Just don't buy it unless it is made in the USA.
Actually outsourcing have happened for much longer and the countries involved were Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, ASEAN countries etc. The difference with these countries with China or India is their size, where the other countries are much smaller than the US or EU in population. But both China and India are at least 4 times the size of the US. Us Americans have committed a strategic blunder in embracing these two large nations China and India who will beat us and the rest of the world in this game and put all of us under their boots, in the long run. What we should have done instead is to trade more with smaller nations and avoid these two giants and perhaps work on expediting the regional groups such as EU, ASEAN, African Union etc., so these entities with bigger population groups can face the threat from large nations like China and India.
All work is getting outsourced to india, china, what should we americans do? Ban out sourcing
Why are you angry that some one is willing to make a crappy product for cheaper abroad and not here in the US?
I tell everyone who has these ideas to go out and start their own business and put their ideas to work. But no one wants to do that. All they say is "but how"? They're "smart" enough to come up with an idea, but too lazy or not dedicated enough to actually put their money where their mouth is.
The main reason why many jobs are outsourced is due to the cost labor. Are you also willing to (a lot)pay more for goods made in America? People need to learn to work with international trade than against it. That's my 2 cents
The worlds changed and most of those jobs aren't coming back to America unless Americans are prepared to work for $5 a day.
We need to think outside the box
why should a company raise its cost of production and thus not be able to sell any products and have to layoff more usa workers involved in design, testing, accounting or sales?
Vs. cutting its labor costs by sending most of its jobs overseas, shipping the produced goods back here where they can further deteriorate the local economy through competition and force further joblessness and outsourcing?
So worth watching: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5064665078176641728
Sir James Goldsmith understands the issues better than just about anyone else. He's a capitalist, not some pinko. He also happens to think society should not be destroyed for the sake of enterprise. Please just listen to him.
I outsource jobs. I would happily hire Americans instead of foreigners if I could find enough Americans with the right skills.
You should keep traing young americans too, then u are a true american, only when u train , later they become a ready made stuff, so start training
I've spent the last month training a new test engineer who I hired from this site. What have you done?
Haha... unicorns and rainbows...