Forum Post: Resource Based Economy... This is the Solution
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 18, 2011, 10:15 p.m. EST by kevinsutavee
(209)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
People... please do the due diligence.. the reason there is no agenda and no leaders for OWS is because you all are upset with good reason.. yet you aren't sure of how to "fix" the problem.. that is because its a very difficult problem to fix, its complex and vast... a Resource Based Economy is the product of MANY years of research and critical thought..
the current system is flawed at the core.. and has run its course...
please take the 18 minutes to watch this video which was produced for TEDx
TRUST ME.. you will be very happy you watched it... then we can talk about phased implementation..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mkRFCtl2MI&feature=player_embedded
The brightest minds called their gathering the ted conference?
the ted conference is an ongoing "seminar" it takes place regularly .. look it up ted.com
I just thought they could have come up with a better name
Thankyou for the video !
Peter Joseph (ZGM) speaks to Occupy Los Angeles about RBE (ppl there liked the idea): http://youtu.be/dkinHuvLEaU
He asks has there been a movement that goes against the corporate and financial powers and implies that there hasn't been. But the permaculture movement has been going for decades and is very effective and influencial and this is just one example. Indeed these movements that Peter Joseph suggests don't even exist are creating a bright future for man kind as we speak using effective methods that individuals and groups can actually implement rather than dream about.
Just think of continental drift!
YOUR WELCOME!! please help spread awareness through the ranks
I think we should concentrate on the things people actually need like fresh food, pure water, a living environment and healthy relationships before worrying about high speed trains etc.
Support our petition. http://www.petitiononline.com/SoLMag/petition.html
Occupy your Motherland!
Come and add info to the thread if you agree with that comment. http://occupywallst.org/forum/family-food-gardens-this-is-the-solution/
There's quite a few posters on this board pushing for the same thing. Hopefully, we can eventually get a sub forum so everything is more organized.
absoulutely... how do you propose?? this forum is a (pardon my french) a cluster fuck
Several people have mentioned it in here. I think an administrator would have to set it up. It is a cluster fuck.
Wow! Just awesome. Finally some real Brain Food
glad you like it.. as you delve deeper in there are many "debunkers".. lets keep spreading the concept.. check this out too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SQqjTxI3vc&feature=youtu.be
The best food is grown with love in your garden.. http://occupywallst.org/forum/family-food-gardens-this-is-the-solution/
I love you. My Brain & I thank you.
Capitalism works fine when managed properly. The only thing our govt cares about managing is wars and money( out of our pocket and into theirs)
In order to achieve a RBE we must break the scarcity paradigm we have and start using technology to create abundance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f04fCbFStks
check this out: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140622849535#ht_500wt_1413
advertisement??? really?? lol
"What are the immutable foundations of human health and prosperity, and how do we construct a system which meets those needs for the entire human population - understanding we live on a finite planet - whilst ensuring the sustainability of this habitat for future generations?"
That system is a current work in progress. We saw this coming three years ago.
www.republicofolancho.com
ABOSLUTELY AMAZING!!! BRAVO!!! congrats i am looking further into this now.. but amazing from what i read so far!!
lotta guns though?? well it is central america..
Over time, citizens will have less need for guns. Currently, there is no effective police force.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Republic-of-Olancho/149833091753264?sk=wall
are you there now?
No. I will return for gold prospecting next month and then will stay all through next Spring at our new gold camp. Gold is how we finance the development of the experimental sustainable communities. I will also go to Gaviotas in Colombia to learn about their approach to energy systems.
i "liked" ur fb page... hope to hear more from you moving forward..
Is it so hard to extrapolate the trends of today? Where will we be 500 years from now? How about 10,000 years? Will we be here at all? We the people, have plundered this planet so much in the last century alone. Ecosystems and wild life have suffered and are going extinct every year. Resources are being depleted faster than consumerism can consume and landfills are becoming landmarks. While there are laws which fight to protect these very systems, all laws are for sale in the open market regardless of regulations. Ironically, those who attain the wealth to make the laws in their favor, do not do so in the interest of all. As Jacque would say, we've been given this beautiful gift, and we're lousing it up! I find that to be an understatement.
While many innovations and achievements have come from this economic model, it has served its purpose and is now doing more harm than good. If we choose to continue this path, needless to say, I do not foresee the human race nor any other species surviving the next thousand years. A term coined "The death of birth". Technology is the vehicle which has accelerated so much destruction through its application via economic policy. Now is the time to utilize our knowledge and updated understanding of the reality in which we inhabit. Now is the time to realize a new way of life, a new standard of living, not for the privileged, but for We The People.
I have fully studied the resource based economy amongst dated social practices and theories of the past. I am part of this human race and I support this direction. All arguments I've seen against it have been driven by lack of awareness and traditional assumptions, and while some may dispute valid technical points, there's nothing which cannot eventually be agreed upon when understanding the values and principles. Thank you for reading and remember to consider the gravity of the situation.
well said
Dirt bagger party is strong, media acting like we are a joke, change coming
Interesting video... not sure i agree that "strategic design" is at odds with the free market system. Certainly agree that a model calling for perpetual growth is at odds with "dynamic equilibrium".
great.. please pass the information along and look more into the concept.. when you have 2.5 hours check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
http://occupytogether.spreadshirt.se/
what the ??? lol
Wiki Occupy Wall Street
http://www.wikioccupywallst.org
United We Stand ! Let's Build it Together ! Yes we are Us . . .
Ron Paul 2012!
I think we should concentrate on the things people actually need like fresh food, pure water, a living environment and healthy relationships before worrying about high speed trains etc.
Support our petition. http://www.petitiononline.com/SoLMag/petition.html
Occupy your Motherland!
sorry, no, tzm is not a solution, its a cult, a resource based economy is a fine idea, but until the cult gets its head out of its ass its the problem not the solution. Its not the product of research not cirtical thought, its a pipe dream detached from science, and detached from open source direct democracy. we do not need a fascist robo gawd. just to start.
please explain how an idea formulated by scientific conclusions and people that read up on these conclusions and agree with them is a "cult." Are people that believe in the electromagnetic theorem and can quote its equations "cult members" too?
sorry, it was not formulated by science conclusions. i know science. jaques has maybe 3 or 5 bachelors degrees. his ideas are anti capitalist pipe dreams and are completely detached from science. It IS a cult and it meets 90 percent of cult evaluation criteria, tho most of them weakly. just because cult leader CLAIMS science does not mean that there IS science. I am a genuine article 20 phd polymath. Jaques is a fraud, and is NOT a modern "davinci"
there is NO science in any of TZM and NEVER has been. If there was, they would form open source think tanks and go long and actuall research science. their failure to do this is all about their attempt to control their message rather than trust science facts to bear out their ideas in the end. Saying its scientific when its not and you repeating that is actually a fine proof its a cult. If the cult admitted it was ignorantly pipe dreaming but admires the scientific method that might be different.
interesting assertions, but by the same token, if you are a phd, do you have any interest to help lend a hand in further critical analysis of the concepts.. perhaps computer modeling? rather than heckling from the stands? tzm is easy to contact i encourage you to do so if you have expertise you can bring to the table.. otherwise do you have a better solution?
i draw in autocad. i have multiple drawings relative to their sense of direction. I have expert knowledge of architecture and civil engineering. You are missing the point. Tzm/ TVP ALWAYS makes enemies out of the people who have knowledge BECAUSE they ARE A CULT. They can't stand the problem of having anybody else in the room with more authority via knowledge than they have. They can't stand the idea of having anyone in theor sphere who actually knows what they are talking about- because they don't. They are so terrified of being exposed or of losing their cult control that they are patently unable to accept help. This is not MY experience. This is why two dozen splinter groups have formed. EVERY time competent people come into contact with the cult they end up splintering to form a new group. If you don't think so, go check out RBOSE.
that was to be my question... if you had first hand experience.. why not make a point of contact to find out for yourself.. what have you to lose? its a domestic call ;-) ... or better yet email! lol .. but no seriously .. why not, worst case, you get rubbed wrong and you decide against involvement, best case.. you are instrumental in a capacity..
clearly you read the first sentence and not the whole paragraph.
i will again state. i have tried many times to help them. they can't be helped. if you think that this is not true, then by all means, set yourself up as an intermediary and lets go try to make peace, shall we?
you would only learn the hard way and very quickly that they have no interest in expert advice or knowledge, and that they are elitists and fascists.
i had read your entire paragraph.. my observations of peter joseph so far does not seem to be that of someone who has no idea of what he is talking about... ALLOW ME TO DISCLAIM.. i am not defending any position in this case as i am not in the loop.. of what transpired.. i have yet to engage tzm myself.. i find solace in the fact you were initially inspired to the point of action.. by the concept.. as i am now..
let me give you the one that really sort of puts things in one short story in perspective. in pjs first or second film he discusses how christianity came to exist as a product of other religions. He specifically focuses on Horus and more or less says Horus was the predecessor of Jesus. The gist of this argument is true. Like Al gore arguing for global warming, the problem is that EVERY DETAIL of his argument is WRONG. The actual immediate predecessor to the jesus myth is dionYSIUS= JSIUS=Jesus and "Christos" is the ROMAN word for "annointed one."
The actual historical person was Yeshua ben yeoseph, whose life story was spliced with Dionysius and Zoroastrian mythology to produce the Jesus Cult. So PJs unfortunate end effect is this. He impressed the ignorant ; AND MAKES ANY GENUINE EXPERT ON THE SUBJECT DO A DOUBLE FACE PALM. This is only one example of many. Having 3 bachelors degrees from reading and then trying to play expert will always tend to fail. Epically. PJ knows a lot compared to Joe Average and Squat compared to any genuine expert. I feel for him, but honestly, if you want anything good to come of his "movement" he NEEDS me to put the whole thing together for him.
hmm.. can i see your resume? lol!!!!
no seriously though do you have anything like papers published or what have you so i can get a better sense of your background?? for example ive watched hours of peter.. and gotten a sense of the man..
i mean this in the most humble way..
i am john bassist on FB. I would drop a giant list of links for you to explore but they so threatened the status quo that i have recently been hacked and have had several months of work deleted.
https://www.facebook.com/prometheus.pan/posts/224815287581838?ref=notif¬if_t=share_comment#!/groups/163532010364963/ this is a fine place to start.
found you.
will check now.. and connect on fb..
yes, right, you have 20 phds. OK, whatever. That requires 63 years of study. There ARE genuine open source think tanks witihin the zeitgeist movement, just because you say there aren''t and shout about cults doesn't mean that you are right.
You've not backed up anything you've said with any evidence whatsoever, which an actual scientist would do, instead of trying to play the argument from authority card (I'm clever and I say it's not true.)
Really? show me a genuine open source think tank. there is not one. i would know, i have joined every sub movement and every last etc. They can't even manage to stop the pack psychology and hierarchy, so its not open source, its not democracy, and its not science centered, and its certainly not a think tank. I have spent hundreds of hours trying to help the cult, your only rational course of action is to accept this and to attempt to get your diseased cult dealt with by the social movement doctor. I am still open to try to help them and the core ideals are good. but it is a cult, they do not have any open source think tanks and they do not have any strong or meaningful solutions. An "actual scientist" wouldn't even bother to answer such ignorant BS and thats why there aren't any aside from douglas mallete involved in the cult.
sorry, are you saying an "actual scientist" wouldn't reference material, and just claim to be who he says he is. Anyone can play God on the internet.
Your insistence on calling it a cult does not make it so. You remind me of someone that was banned from the zeitgeist forums.
any "actual scientist" would never touch this conversation or TZM with a ten foot pole. My factual understanding of cult dynamics and my ability to plug TZM into cult evaluation criteria are quite absolute and thus my ability to call it a cult is based on science, whereas its claim that it is not a cult is sadly actually itself a fine proof that it is one, because a non cult answers that question differently.
Somebody who was banned from the tzm forums? for pointing out that neil kiernian the sociopath was attacking people and ad homming them? for the simple crime of standing up to the trolladmin whoc was clearly violating the rules with an endless tirade of ad homs?
Neil kiernian is an evil fascist con scammer social parasite. And he bans people from the forums not because they are against the movement but because they stand up to him and his vicious evil noise. He is the primary causal factor which makes tzm a cult, and you can not escape the simple facts of his behaviors which prove it is a cult.
and the real truth comes out.
You have a personal greivance with someone in the zeitgeist movement and so you attack the whole movement.
The criteria for a cult are: bizarre beliefs, ritual practices, irrational thought processes leading to illogical conclusions.
While not a member of the zeitgest movement, I see none of this behaviour in their stated goals and conclusions. If some individual members behave in a cult like fashion, that does not mean that the entire movement itself is a cult.
my personal issues with somebody in the cult are not a reason to dismiss the facts. The whole movement has epic fail fatal errors. The whole movement is fascist, totalitarian, a depopulation cult. The whole movement is irrational, anti knowledge, anti science, and anti truth. the whole movement can't manage a a single open source think tank. The criteria for a cult are not what you list; again this displays gross ignorance. Cult evaluation criteria are quite a bit longer than a dictionary definition, nice epic fail try. If you spent a few thousand hours trying to help them you would realize probably very quickly that they are a cult, because they can't be helped. Esp if you had any kind of depth factual science knowledge.
My specific interactions with the cult are only one example. EVERY LAST EDUCATED PERSON that TRIES to help them experiences THE SAME THING.
The entire movement IS a cult, and this is factual knowledge which i come to because i am an expert in cults, cult psychology, and propaganda, as well as formal logic.
It is also the conclusion of thousands of other people which is why the cult has about as many anti members as members.
The cult is profoundly abusive, and so it has gathered dozens of people up who spend their time alerting the public.
This is hardly limited to me, this is simply the absolute facts. it is a cult, it is a cult mostly because of neil, and it is a cult because it is detached from science and detached from democracy or open source work. Its a top down hierarchy, its a fascist enemy centered ideology, and it does not have any appreciable solutions to human problems and is only a giant dead end until it gets its head out of its ass.
it appears to me that you have a cult-like fixation on the zeitgeist movement, and not the other way around.
Just because you had a bad experience doesn't mean anything.
All you're really telling me is the website is moderated, and the people who agree with the principles aren't educated enough to do anything about it.
That does not a cult make.
And I have plenty of science knowledge, thanks.
I see 3 or 4 "anti-members" like yourself posting under multiple names to try and discredit tzm.
i do not have any cult like fixation. this is not me having merely a bad experience. you are blaming the victim and trying to make this personal, which is a stupid and evil and irrational position to take. I know what i am talking about. you don't, and neither do they. I did have a bad experience and so will anybody who has knowledge they try to share. The website is not moderated- its run by admintrolls who troll their own forums. We don't need to discredit tzm it has done that to itself. No scientists are joining up. all we are doing is posting warning so that the ignorant are not lulled in.
most people will take such warnings well, and so you trying to promote your cult is not going to work here. just like all the other pricks which are using this movement ot try to promote something else, this is not your platform to move ron paul or obam or tzm forward. tzm is not a solution, it is a cult and a con scam.
period.
he website is NOT moderated, that would require a metaprocess which they do not have. it is trolled by admins.
period.
you have nothing figured out. you attacking me personally? classic. all your cult ever has is ad homs and no substance, and thats how you are trained to deal with criticism. Everything i say IS pure genius since i have a 180 IQ and 20 phds of autodidactic knowledge. I am contributing positive things. tzm is not. they certainly imagine they are- thats the problem. posit a guess. i have aspergers syndrome, but thats not really relevant.
you are stupid if you let this cult scam you. you are irrational if you take these very real issues and dismiss them. you are stupid and irrational and EVIL if you attack me without substance for pointing out the truth. I am talking about EVERYONES experiences, nevermind the personal reality- i am talking about the SYSTEMIC epic fails and fatal errors, not my personal experience.
You are the one who is making it person. Neil kiernian the sociopath is the one making it personal. I tried o help despite STARTING the game seeing fatal errors, those fatal errors will not be addressed because people like you are stupid con scammed dupes who have no conscience and who will thus do evil at the bidding of their cult.
i don't have any anger management issues.
i do have the truth; which is that tzm is a cult, and i will tell that truth to warn the public and so this forum is NOT useful to promoting TZM.
I have you totally figured out, you know.
You have a god complex and think that everything you say is pure genius, when actually it's not.
You think you are contributing positive things when actually you are not. Everybody that points this out to you becomes evil and a troll.
I would posit a guess that you are autistic, since this type of fixation is typical of sufferers of autism.
I am not stupid and evil and irrational. You are talking about your personal experiences and then you blame me for trying to make it personal - do you see the logical disconnect there?
Good luck with your anger management issues.
if there hasn't been an appropriate think tank on the topic yet in your view.. why not contact tzm to assist in coordinating one.. or do so on your own??
oh i have. your missing the point. i put in 700 posts and a month of time on the forum to get some real collaboration going and was booted by neil for pointing out that he was ad homming somebody else. I put in hundreds more hours in assorted groups. I put in a thousand hours and most of year to RBEF- which has since gone defunct. I have tried and tried to help them. But they are evil, they are a cult, and they don't take help, just money, donations, and dupes. The offer still as always stands. They are free to come to me at any time and seek my assistance to get their head out of their ass. The last little bit somebody played middle man and after all was said and done they asked me for my Resume. lol. Yes,.. they are just that stupid. By all means, try to connect them to something resembling truth or connect them to me to help them get over the disease of cult mind. I'm quite willing to help them. They are not willing or able to recieve such help.
asking for your resume is a slap in the face!!! lol well... really depending on how it was requested..
they don't need my services as an autocad drafter half as much as they need my services as a social meta entity doctor. they asked for my resume as an autocad drafter.
i should ad.. i am inspired by the concept for now.. no experience in the movements dynamic i will concede
i am inspired by the general concepts and ideas also. it saddens me deeply that this potential ally is instead one more problem i have to face.
really speechless.. egos can be stumbling blocks.. have you introspected as well? were you arrogant to a degree as well? just curious...
again responding up thread since no reply button is given. i agree we need to get things pointed in that direction. i think you will find a lot of useful information on my FB pages to assist in that.
https://www.facebook.com/prometheus.pan/posts/224815287581838?ref=notif¬if_t=share_comment#!/groups/163532010364963/
one thing which is great is this thread has stayed relevant in the forum.. though i don't really know about this forum lol!!!!!!!!!
they don't want you all to know how ignorant they are, thats what they fear being exposed. i am nsering up thread... i don't know why but your post lacks a respond button.
the best approach is to take the best ideals from them and then work on the science end to build up a science centered RBE concept.
for now.. i am looking to help the ows'ers find a direction which they need.. once RBE comes more to the fore front.. and the best and brightest minds of the world decide to invest their energies as well.. it should follow a natural path.. whereby it can not be a cult of personality, which i am not accusing it of.. but i think you are.. ;-) im just clarifying
i am an aspie. its literally true that i don't have an ego like what most people think of. have i introspected? lol. ? constantly. was i arrogant?
that depends on what you mean by that. did i state the truth always? did i never back down? was i always clear and concise and self assured? Absolutely. I know who has got the pearls. Some people may experience that as arrogance. I don't think it is, but then, nobody ever does. lol.
i will again state. all i have ever done with them is offer them useful information and all they have ever done in response is ignore me, attack me, lie about me, defame and libel and slander me, or miss the point entirely and ask for my resume.
They don't listen. that is THEIR issue.
They don't listen because they are self assured that they know it all. They have 5 bachelors to rub together between the lot of them.
But they must continue to give off the appearance of being prophets to their dupes, and are not willing to risk losing their dupe sheeple flocks to embrace actual knowledge or expertise.
They are TERRIFIED that they could lose control or be exposed.
this prevents them from recieving any kind of outside help unless that help is by definition ignorant and malleable.
i don't understand when you say they are terrified of being "exposed" .. only because at the same time you make it seem you are to a degree "behind the concept" .. i don't want to get myself in a defensive position here on behalf of tzm, as i already made clear.. if its exposed for lack of degrees you are talking about..degrees don't = truth per se..
as far as your comments regarding arrogance.. i fully get you.. ;-) like i said im not in the loop on this one.. for now.. i guess we should take a wait and see approach.. please stay in touch.
interesting.. so you are interested enough to put in this much effort yet were rubbed wrong.. in that case... i will continue spreading the concept for now.. and regarding your involvement and experience i will note it for myself.. please keep me posted with any future developments of solutions which you come accross to the dilemma we face.. you have my name. best, kevin..
I didn't even realize there was a message... just a bunch of psycho babble. It begins on a false premise because ALL economic logic is resource based.
You want to solve this problem, Mr. Science - I have the answer: use nanotechnology to create and supply all needs. When everyone's needs are met in abundance through some simple formula of instant creation... when a pill can create a home, and a car, furniture, and food, and all manner of things for us... the world will finally be the free loving and peaceful Utopia we dream of. It is the ONLY solution.
All desire of any kind could be freely met in abundance. But... true to evolutionary form, herein lies the fallacy: if such a magic pill existed it would never be free. Because such a theory neglects the desire for power which cannot be discarded because it allows us a voice and an opportunity to affect change in our lives. And if powerful enough, in a very big way.
"tzm is the problem not the solution" and the 87% of the rest of your comment.. leave me speechless.. sorry
Socialism works.
I got two problems with it,
It's politically impossible. You'll never get enough Americans to support it, 50% of the country is strong conservative and 80% of liberals are like me who don't trust Socialist models. Being politically impossible is equal to being against the law of physics, we can solve the world's problems if we can time travel, but for now we can't do that, so no point to debate about it.
All countries following radical socialist models failed. Like Cuba, Soviet Union, N. Korea. The problem is that this system assumes that the government is both efficient and democratic. Unfortunately, a government with so much economic power becomes greedy and turns into tyranny and corruption. That is human nature and it's not going to change. Even if you build a very strong system of democracy that does not allow it to be tyrannical, human greed would force the politicians to be inefficient,kinda of what's happening to the USA today. People living one country would want to have more goods than another country due to natural human jealousy, they would pressure the politicians to make more goods, if they fail they would get voted out of office, and you'll be back to step one in inefficient use of resources.
there is no government. so there is no greed. so there is no corruption. next.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qlgzTlAvOo
hi, you make strong arguements that i do not have the time to counter now.. but will adress later.. thank you
I think we should concentrate on the things people actually need like fresh food, pure water, a living environment and healthy relationships before worrying about high speed trains etc.
Support our petition. http://www.petitiononline.com/SoLMag/petition.html
Occupy your Motherland!
the earth is my mother land my friend.. and i do agree with you
The earth is everyones motherland. http://occupywallst.org/forum/family-food-gardens-this-is-the-solution/
true
Although I feel this type of system would be the best possible, right now at this time people would not accept it, and I'm not talking about people in the movement but other countries. We can however tailor our capitalistic system with that goal in mind. When we've connected every corner of the planet with technology we can move towards that system.
Yes, a transition would be appropriate. The public must understand the end goal before they can begin aiming towards it.
Support sustainability, reduce corruption, reduce military/all lethal arms, support automated infrastructure, support open source development, demand a more transparent government, reduce the power of the monetary system, promote collaboration, etc.
These are all steps necessary to bring us closer to a post-scarcity society
Well now I watched the movie,,the whole thing. That's an hour or so I won't ever get back. What a bunch of Bull Shit.
To the little barn yard critters who want there school loans forgiven:
As a Parent I read the little red hen to my children to teach them to work for what they want. for those of you who don't know the story, here you go.
The little red hen goes and asks her fellow farm animals, will you help me plant the grain?? they reply No so she goes and plants the grain. then she asks, will you help me harvest the grain, they reply No Will you help me grind the grain, No they reply Will you help me bake the bread, No they reply so then she has the bread, and they say, we will help you eat the bread. she says NO!! she said, I planted the seed to grow the grain, harvested the grain to grind for the bread, ground the grain to make the flour, and mixed the flour to bake into bread. there for I shall eat the bread, because I did all the work myself.
in life, those who work hard get more. those who don't work, don't get. I maybe disabled, but I worked 5-7 days a week before I had my stroke. I planted the seeds, harvest the grain, ground it to flour, and baked the bread. so I shall eat, and those who don't do, shall not.
so little red hens good for you, little farm animals who only want hand outs, go find a job, pay your school loans, and earn what you get in life, stop the protest. I paid my student loans, I pay my taxes, I pay for my car. Nothing in life is free, Not even Bread. Terry Peterson Ohio44048's daughter
Surely the little red hen had some land to plant the grain on. http://occupywallst.org/forum/family-food-gardens-this-is-the-solution/
As I see the so called logic of the reason for the Protesters is I have four loafs of bread. You have none. You want me to give you half my bread. I don't want to give you what I worked hard for. If you are hungry enough, you will steal my bread. If I fight you and your desire for my bread is strong enough you will kill me. Spread the Wealth. By your logic I simply give you what I worked hard for. Well I will fight and I will fight to the death to defend what I have. This is Natural order of evolution, the fittest wins. In my case the better prepared.
in fact to take it further.. i would rather die of starvation than have to fight you over a half a loaf of bread.. just the concept you are clinging to in and of itself if you abstract yourself you should be able to see how desperate this is all becoming... if humanity returns to the point we are literally killing over crumbs than any conversation about anything is moot. LOVE.
??? how on earth do you arrive at this conclusion?? that we want to "take" from you?? i am a person who likes to share... if you want that last half of a loaf of bread so bad, go ahead and cling to it with all your might, i hope it was worth it?? strange.
I am a sharing person. I donate my time and funds to charities. I give to food banks and to clothing banks. You want me to share what I have,,,I do,,if you want me to give you half of what I have,,no way. But from what I have seen here the basis for your protest is that you want the Rich to pay your way.
what?? my friend, i am by no means asking the rich to pay my way?? i am not unemployed..i own my own businesses.. i live a good life.. im seeking a good life for all not just me.. i have to go, please look further into rbe and share the concept with your peers for further dialogue i will be back later
So your ok with, Forgive my Student Loan idea???
yes, and no.. but like i said i have to go.. will be happy to pick up later..
Phased implementation!!
At gun point if necessary, right?
no, absolutely not. RELAX.. let me put it this way... i AM VERY HAPPY THAT PEOPLE ARE RALLYING AROUND THIS CONCEPT.. take a breath relax.. look further into it and you will see there is no need to be afraid.. the idea is a society of ABUNDANCE... THE WORLD HAS MANY RESOURCES its the current socio - political system which CREATES SCARCITY in the pursuit of the SUPPLY AND DEMAND DYNAMIC...
I have looked into it. I really don't mean to offend you or anyone else, but I strongly suggest that you study the history of totalitarian regimes with central authorities. You will discover that the ideas in TZM are not new, just repackaged and updated. You will also find that every attempt at implementing similar systems has been horrific for the people it was imposed upon.
I really do understand that it sounds all fresh and exciting and scientific, but if you read enough you will see that this is not new.
Yes the encapsulated cities is a red flag: http://occupywallst.org/forum/family-food-gardens-this-is-the-solution/
Yes if you were born around the 50's you will remember the Hippies and Conmums. Everything is the same just a different label.
thank you for the gentle patronization.. THE IDEA OF OWS is that this current freedom and democracy model is also causing people to suffer.. don't you remember why this forum is in existence?? don't have too much time to continue debating as i am on my way out the door.. the main premise i will leave you with is my question.. do you not see the innate flaws of our current model?? IT WAS GREAT BUT HAS RUN ITS COURSE..
It was great, yes there are reasons for a reveiw of the system, but don't throw the baby out with the wash. If you do what do you have, en empty wash tub and no future.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOO_AVwfZ9Q
non sensical statement... really let me go people... i will be back later.. find someone else to pick on for now ;-)
I do see the flaws in the practice of our current system. I also know that all systems look good on paper but in the real world, all are subject to corruption.
The beauty of the American system is that it allows the people means of correcting the system when it goes astray. Indeed, it is our duty to vigilantly protect our constitution and to, from time to time, "refresh the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots and tyrants". We've done a piss poor job of it for at least the past 50 years. I believe it was Ben Franklin who said, "We've given you a Republic, for as long as you can keep it".
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. The American system has brought prosperity to a degree never seen before in all of human history. At present, we have some serious problems and we need to fix them. Throwing the entire system out the window in favor of a system equally susceptible to corruption but with much more dire consequences for the people when it fails is not a good decision.
just got out the shower and will adress one last comment for now... first yes AMERICA IS GREAT.. IT WAS THE SOCIETY WITHIN WHICH THIS CONCEPT, IE, RBE HAS MATURED TO THE STAGE IT IS AT NOW.. regarding corruption im glad you used the word "baby".... look at it this way baby are born and they are sweet darling angels, it is not until they begin to have to assimilate to the outside world, outside of the nurturing family environment.. it is not until then does greed, fear, corruption.. start to seep into the psyche as they are forced to do battle to survive and thrive within the paradigm we exist with today.. ok?? on that note.. i have to go... look forward to continueing later.. in the meantime please spread the concept to your peers for dialogue if nothing else.. only the best, kevin.
I'm guessing you don't have kids. Long before they go out into the world, they will take toys from one another, hit each other and engage in all sorts of 'not nice' behavior. They also become afraid of all sorts of things, without reason. Not sure how they're corrupt, but they certainly don't have morals and ethics. We, as parents, have to teach them. Such is human nature.
So did you 'force' your children to share/obey, did you educate them on the value of sharing and acting nicely, or did you allow them to continue acting 'not nice'?
wrong guess. i have a beautiful son.. yes it is in the parenting.. so these are you kids you are talking about?? my son is the sweetest thing ever!!!
If need be yes, to protect my family from those who would steal from me, Yes.
I'm with you, Ohio. I was unclear, but my comment was directed at those proposing the idea of a phased implementation of TZM. Typically, it's all peace and love until someone doesn't want to join utopia, and then the guns come out.
Some of us are old enough to have witnessed such things :-)
won't happen like that. TZM is a peaceful movement. Nobody will ever be forced to join. They'd just be stupid not to.
I think I've heard that before.....
Extensive articles on this subject are posted here:
http://metapolitik.org/content/demands
...And here:
http://metapolitik.org/content/deep-green-social-democratic-revolution-starts-now-better-late-never
...It's either this or watch helplessly as our entire planet collapses.
Or follow a plan that can be put into action: http://occupywallst.org/forum/family-food-gardens-this-is-the-solution/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/family-food-gardens-this-is-the-solution/#comment-166120
This is the answer
yes, thank you .. please look further into the zietgeist movement.. here is a link to the latest film its 2.5 hours long and goes much further in depth.. so you can have a deeper understanding of the practical aspects http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
There are very few things I am sad about missing due to my imminent death. But one thing I will be sad to miss, if anyone ever tries a RBE, is watching it prosper in the short term and then rip itself apart as human nature reveals its true, evil, self.
again.. another person who debunks with out doing the due dilligence... humans are products of our environment.. is the nature of our very system that ows is protesting that turns sweet happy children into blood thirsty savages of adults.. the environnment not our nature, this is scientifically proven.. here is the link please take the time to watch it and get back to me.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
Just for fun....if humans are solely products of their environment, how do you account for children raised in the same household where one becomes an upstanding citizen and the other a criminal?
as they are two different humans.. also it has been scientifically proven thar YES a person may be born with a predisposition .. however it is the environment which pushes people one way or the other.. in the case you cited 2 different people under the same roof are still looking at the world from 2 perspectives, ie .. one could be more interested in violence while the other not, due to television, peer groups etc...
you had me until "Resource Based Economy is the product of MANY years of research and critical thought.. "
well how could i lose you there? that is simple fact? Jaque Fresco has been working on this concept for over 30 years..in conjunction with cited scientists and engineers? it is also pulling from various other models as well? anyway i feel like somehow i got roped into a salesman position on this thread.. im only trying to present, less sell.. i feel the video and movement speaks for itself
No doubt a lot of work but would you put your faith in machines rather than in what you are? http://occupywallst.org/forum/family-food-gardens-this-is-the-solution/
i put my faith in a machine to get me from point a to b... to power the lights in my house, etc.. ??
There are people starving to death (in other parts of the world) and you are worried about lights?
i don't even know what to say in response to your posts..im sorry
Before I even went through the video, my thought was that the RBE relies on the whole world looking to achieve maximum efficiency, which requires the whole world to have aligned interests. But this is just not possible. Not only have thousands of years of history shown this, but also Darwinism dictates that humans cannot all share the same interest. The strongest will survive and lead, the weak will have to follow or be eliminated. That's just nature. So while RBE is interesting food for thought, that's all it can be.
no, Darwin never stated this. Actually read "Origin of Species" and tell me the page where Darwin says "the strongest will survive and lead, the weak will have to follow and be eliminated"
Misinterpretation of scientific theories lead to genocide once. So please get your facts straight before you think you are quoting darwin and applying it to a social system (which has nothing to do with genetic evolution.)
I think you get the point
no. I don't get the point. As someone who has read Origin of Species, and many other books on evolutionary theory, I find it quite disconcerting that people can just blindly apply a misinterpreted quote from a book they've never read about biology written in the 19th century to societal structure, and then think they are right.
It's a fallacy of the largest order.
Ok, you may have a better understanding of Darwinism than me, maybe I'm misinterpreting it in the strict scientific sense, but I think you get the point I'm conveying, which is the strong will lead and survive, and the weak will to follow or be eliminated. That's how it's worked for thousands of years, and it's not about to change.
i disagree again. Every empire has fallen. For thousands of years. Every single one.
Every civilization has failed miserably.
Co-operation is the only solution.
Oh ok, so for thousands of years the strong have come in and defeated the weak, but yeah that'll change now.
well, einstein said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Maybe a different approach is exactly what's required, because he also said "I know not what weapons will be used to fight WW3, but WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones" and that's not a prophecy I'd like to come true.
perhaps, but as long as humans have been alive people have disagreed with each other, and when groups of people feel strongly enough of their opinion they will want to force it upon others, and when they face resistance, we have war and bloodshed. This will happen over and over again, and the strongest group will win and they will write the history books.
this is not always true.
Ghandi showed the world how to have a revolution without violence. And India became a free country.
So there is always hope.
People can learn, and grow. We have language, and we can, and will discuss matters to solve issues. We are not neanderthals, nor will the application of a club , and grunting solve the type of problems a modern society faces. You, are apparently living in a bygone era
They can learn and re-learn. And that is the history which you have already forgotten.
i disagree. humans are products of their environment.. yes there is a selection process.. but humans are capable of helping other humans.. yes there are those out there that tend toward doing others harm, but we can not freeze ourselves in the face of that..
Altruism is born of a world of abundance. It serves to ensure and protect those that have from those who have not.
i don't understand this comment at all? do you know the definition of altruism?
On the evolutionary level altruism is self promoting. One cannot sacrifice for another in any form if there is too little; it can only exist in a world of perceived abundance.
Again, theories vs reality. Thousands of years of social conditioning does not get turned off just like that. You'd literally have to wipe the population off the Earth and start over.
lets put it this way, i believe.. do i not count? as well as the Zeitgeist Movement has over 500,000 registered supporters and it only began in late '08.. the airplane was at one point a theory, sailing around the world was at one point a theory..
to put #s into perspective, your movement's followers are probably less than 1/100s of worldwide Justin Bieber fans.
This falls under the group think category and conditioned heuristics. It takes a lot less effort tot follow a celebrity than to follow a philosopher.
You have got to admit that a sense of cognitive disorder is embedded in your mind.
you love to hear yourself talk don't you
No just stating the obvious.
yes and to put into #s... the # is growing exponentially on a daily basis.. once a bieber or sean penn or who ever might have you catch wind.. watch this explode.. and i assume when whatever celebrity you idolize joins the movement thats when you will "hop on the bandwagon" as well so to speak ;-) i don't need a celebrity to endorse something in order for me to see its value.. you are the one who brought a boy band into the discussion.. but lets not get clever.. i care for all people.. all my best, kevin
yes you count, but you have to get the whole world to agree to this, good luck with that since you have 0.00001% of the world behind you now.
500,000 "registered" supporters, i am not registered btw.. however nearly 12,000,000 views on the youtube video by TZM Moving Forward.. and growing daily.. why are you so resistant?? take some time look into it.. its what i truely believe to be our best option moving forward... we of course need a phased approach
Like I said, food for thought, but I would like to see you going into the Middle East and convincing Iran and Saudi to give up their control of oil for the greater good of the world.
we will not be in need of oil in an rbe.. COME ON...STOP ARGUING WITH ME AND LOOK INTO IT...we have the technical means to stop using oil now.. yet it is simply not cost efficient in the current model.. that is it.. in an rbe model we will be able to apply the science to use sustainable energy sources 100%
Reality trumps economic theory 100/100 times. The reason economic theory doesn't work is because it eliminates the human factor and assumes that the economy always seeks to maximum efficiency, but of course we know that's not possible. Humans are greedy, competitive, and patriarchal/matriarchal by nature, the whole world working together for an utopia is just a nice thought.
you are skipping the home work and formulating your own notions based on your own "hunches"... i strongly suggest you watch the 2.5 hour doc Moving Forward.. with an open mind.. there are several scientists featured who cover most of your criticisms, ie, humans as greedy, etc... also this is not "utopian" here is the link to the doc, please take the time TRUST ME IT IS WORTH IT IF NOTHING ELSE THAN TO AT LEAST GIVE YOU ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
Some scientists these guys are to believe that they can do better than nature. http://occupywallst.org/forum/family-food-gardens-this-is-the-solution/
Good thought though... it sells a whole lot of guns. True efficiency cannot be achieved without the military might of some dictator who comes to power to make all the difficult decisions necessary to the elimination of life, and efficiency, sapping forces in our society. A benevolent dictator is exactly what the Mormons have been praying for for years... but no truly benevolent dictator has ever been known to exist - Mao took 7 million lives to create what he believed to be the more "efficient" society.
the social system has been studied using the scientific method for many many years.
pick up any social science or economic paper. if the math and the logic is too intense, try freakonomics.
economists around the world, in universities, in financial institutions, in non-profit global organizations and think tanks, have been running massive computer simulations and modelling to determine optimal running of controlled environments.
again.. please do the due diligence review the link i provided, the overwhelming majority of research done has been done presupposing we are existing within the optimum paradigm... WE ARE NOT.. it was an important part of our evolution.. now it is time to progress..please take the few minutes to view the video and let me know your thoughts.. you have nothing to lose and much to gain..
the overwhelming majority of research does not assume that our current society is optimal.
that's why research is done. economists have been trying for years to find an optimum. unfortunately nobody understands human behaviour - why people have biases, prefer different things, want different lifestyles, have different definitions of success, etc. and that makes it difficult to find an optimum solution.
optimum for who? if a world is fair, what is fair? is it fair that some people are born intelligent and some have mental deficiencies? is it fair that some are stronger and some have physical defects? is it fair that we were born in the country with the highest GDP in the world and some were born in Somalia?
over the past few years nobel prizes have been given for researchers who have been exploring why people behave the way we do, how some systems work, and what are the "best" ways of organizing resources (2009 was given to two researchers for their work in communal resources, 2010 was given for research in finding work). but even with all the work that humanity has done to understand our society we are no closer to finding a utopia than 1000 years ago.
first of all trying to find a "utopia" is akin to trying to find a stairway to heaven or pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.. you said you looked into RBE.. i am not here to sell it.. only trying to spread awareness of it.. it is up to you to make your own conclusions.. i personally believe in the possibilities postulated within the Zeitgeist Movement.. should you find a better alternative I will be absolutely open minded to it.. i feel i've done my part by at least having you think about it.. but you've taken the stance which you have taken.. maybe your stance will change over time..
Oh yes, resource based not supply and demand driven.
yes.. can you somehow assist in helping more OWS supporters awareness to this?
I’m not an expert on the subject simply love the concept of redesigning a new sustainable civilization. Is it feasible? Sure, but not in my life time. There are many versions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacque_Fresco http://www.onecommunityranch.org/purpose-values-mission/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zn8MRKOskw
yes the zeitgeist movement is largely based on the work of jacque fresco.. and YES, we CAN MAKE INROADS... WITHIN YOUR LIFETIME.. lets work together.. in spreading awareness
I have thought about phased implementation for a long time. The answer would be to start having subversive movements that start off small and then take over. Open up a new, smaller economy, like time shares and such, no, not related to vacations, but to giving your time and therefore service to others in exchange for an equal amount of time from them. Start to take over, overriding the system bit by bit. Local farming would also be a necessary implementation. Start to build community centers that decentralize EVERYTHING, including entertainment, thus weaning ourselves off oil. Start biking everywhere. Put the means for generating energy in everyone's yard, with parabolic mirror, energy-generating stirling engine systems and molten salt batteries. DECENTRALIZE! Then start a new way of living from our own constructs.
the idea of RBE is to centralize.. not decentralize.. for sake of economy, and by economy, the definition of the word which is to make more efficient... your hearts absolutely in the right place.. but there have been critical thinkers addressing this for many years to get it distilled to where it is now.. and there is still more work to be done.. would be great if OWS would rally behind this promising alternative..
There is a real problem with global centralization of resources and central control of distribution. All systems are susceptible to corruption and all systems do eventually become corrupted. When the global resource management system becomes corrupted, how do the 99% fight back when the authority has control over their food, water and energy?
YOUR MIND IS TRAPPED IN CURRENT PARADIGM.. TRUST ME.. meaning greed and corruption are byproducts of a world of scarciyt...in soviet russia there was scarcity.. i don't have time to continue debating now.. will be back later im in hawaii 6 hours behind..
Thanks for your concern, but I assure you my mind is not trapped. It is rather old and extremely well read, however. I really wish we could do a mind meld so I could instantly share with you the information I have, but we can't so I'm going to have to just recommend a few things for you to consider.
Compare TZM's global resource management system to Marxist-Leninism's command economy and democratic centralism. There are many parallels and I think we can learn from them. Ask yourself how the systems are the same and how they are different. Look at what went wrong in the Soviet system and think of what could be done in TZM to prevent the same things. If you want to take it another level, follow that up with looking at some of the other implementations of centralized control and planned abundance and ask yourself the same things.
Scarcity is an interesting issue about which there has been much sociological research. We can ponder the question though just by observing. It is true that if there is an abundance of something, people tend to fight less over it. It is also true that people value things that are scare, often for no logical reason. Take diamonds, for example. Little utilitarian value, but people want them because of their scarcity. They are a way of telling others, "Look what I can acquire". If diamonds started falling from the sky tomorrow, demand for them would vanish and people would find something else that was scarce to covet. So you can stop people from fighting over a particular thing by making ti abundant, but that won't stop them from finding something else to covet. This is human nature. Abundance will not solve this.
All systems look good on paper. In the real world, they are subject to human nature. This is what one must consider in evaluating any potential system. Thus far, history has shown that the greatest prosperity and self-fulfillment has come from decentralized control and maximum individual liberty. This type of structure also provides the best protection against corruption. It still happens, but it is easier to correct when power is decentralized.
i am in the process of further investigation.. i am not jumping "all in" blindly, so thank you for the suggestions i will follow up on them..
interesting feedback.. the point of this thread was to help gather some more thinkers from the crowd of which you appear to be one..
why not offer your critique openly to tzm to help hone the focus, if you believe you see weaknesses.. they are open to critque and in fact critique is needed as this is still in an infancy stage to a degree..
the purpose of this thread was to get people discussing and hopefully deciding to at least pass the idea along amongst peers for further reflection.. leading to...
I would love to be able to discuss this topic in depth, but this board (any board) isn't conducive to the lengthy discussions that are necessary to evaluate complex issues.
I could be wrong, but the impression I get from reading many promoters of TZM on this board is that they feel this is a brand new, revolutionary idea that has never been thought of or tried before. To paraphrase Mark Twain, history does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme. The proposed execution of TZM, with the heavy reliance on 21st century technology is new, but the underlying system and ideas are not. Such systems have been extensively written about and tried. They have failed and have produced horrific results for the populations involved. Perhaps there are ways to avoid the same results with TZM. I personally don't think so, but I concede it may be possible. Supporters of this idea, though, will never be able to address those issues if they aren't even aware of them.
With this, or any other proposed solution, it is prudent and necessary to test the assumptions, see where parallels exist in history (or the present), identify the weaknesses and then try to address them. I don't even see recognition that there ARE any weaknesses, which is the first step in ensuring one repeats mistakes of the past.
100% agreed... the purpose of this thread is to spread awareness.. for theory to become reality ... reality must set in.. trial and error as in any process toward a goal..
This doesn't account for a few factors.
We live in a competitive society that advocates such notions as "survival of the fittest" and rationalizes differential advantage through the belief that everyone earns their money.
Survival of the fittest is a political interpretation of Darwin's 'natural selection' because there are just as many examples of collaboration and mutually beneficial practices in nature. Our schooling itself excels at educating new generations of test takers that are forced to compete against fellow students. The education process itself is competitive.
Besides traditional education, we are constantly exposed to advertising which emphasizes scarcity because that is how they increase the 'demand' on their products.
Look at certain eastern cultures that don't emphasize competition nor materialism. Their people have learned to not cling to any items, nor possessions.
In reality scarcity in our society is valued because it is purposely over-valued. Few in our society take time to show appreciation for aspects of their current lives because it is unprofitable, and socially unacceptable. Just look at all the labels thrown around against those opposed to the status-quo.
As for control, an abundance of necessities (food, water, energy) itself can easily be decentralized. All the coveting is done out of a learned fear. A RBE advocates that individuals maintain their autonomy and become leaders themselves through education.
But I understand the projected fear for such a system. Especially when it requires so many to ungrip from years worth of fear-based ideas.
I'm not sure what else to discuss. I think you are making assumptions based on what TZM has told you rather than a thorough study of the numerous aspects of political, economic and social systems, as well as human nature.
I would be interested to know which Eastern cultures you are referring to, though.
I referred to Buddhist cultures.
It's ironic to speak of human nature as if it determines someone's entire life (as if it is static), yet demand each individual to claim responsibility for their own life. If human nature determines one's behavior so much, then individuals wouldn't be able to change their behaviors. In otherwords, no amount of 'assuming responsibility' would change a person if human nature was such a big factor.
Much of what I presented was from various sources outside TZM, including the personal development community. Many within that community have successfully altered their perspective to lead a fulfilling life. Accomplishing the same shift socially isn't impossible.
Examples of some inspirational figures in the community.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HBB9CL2TK0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ZuKF3dxCY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRYjPVEFOgg
There are many many more examples of inspirational figures that overcame the perceived limitations of 'human nature'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLziFMF4DHA
Buddhists do try to let go of materialism, but apart from very dedicated monks, most do not achieve this. It's like Christians trying to be more Christ-like. I spent just shy of 7 years doing a lot of charity work in Nepal and had the pleasure of working with lots of Buddhists. Great people, but not the mystical beings the West often portrays them as.
This is true which is good since we don't need people to completely let go of materialism
We simply need to shift our culture's values overall to be more sustainable.
What you fail to grasp is humans are not interested in efficiency. The most perfect example of this is human mating. The 10 hot girls in the bar get all the attention while the other 50 are mostly ignored. That's not efficient, but that's just reality that guys want the hot girl and not the ugly.
Actually what's 'hot' depends on the kind of conditioning the guy's have had.
Some like love handles, others like intelligence, and there are a whole bunch of other qualities enjoyed. The issue we have is, advertising 'tells us' what is attractive. Why? Because their companies profit from scarcity.
Our culture is a product of artificially produced scarcity.
thats a blanket statement, not based in any scientific methodology... BLANKET, how are you to make a statement such as "humans are not interested in efficiency" ... ?? please stop fighting the concept.. look into it in depth, i am not proposing "flicking the switch" so to speak... PHASED IMPLEMENTATION... BEGINS WITH REALIZATION.. TRUST ME IM ON YOUR SIDE :-)
I don't think that's a blanket statement, things like tariffs and protectionism are designed to prevent the market from achieving efficiency. All the calls for bringing jobs back is a sign that the US is not interested in true efficiency.
have you looked into the Zeitgeist Movement.. its great you've been giving this thought... here is a video from Peter Joseph from yesterday addressing OWS as a whole.. please check it out and get back to me..
http://youtu.be/1SQqjTxI3vc
Yes, I've watched the videos. I used to ride my bike through my neighborhood and think about exactly what you're asking people to think about, all with the movement fueling my ideas. I know I may not have the best answers, but these are my real solutions that I've come up with. The best answer, of course, would be one that already exists, and that has taken the form of crowd funding, (slow money) and other means of pooling resources together. It already works, just not to the extent that I would like. I even came up with the idea of crowd funding before I Googled it. That was a good day for me.
excellent!! lets try and get more OWS to rally behind this no? seems like now is the time.. i guess i am where you were back when you were riding your bike fueled by the ideas.. as i am constantly advocating.. yet seems people just don't seem to get it or want to get it... i heard of tzm years ago, however due to the name and how it was initially presented to me i wrote it off as another conspiracy theory..
I don't like certain aspects of it, like when they went into the means of implementing it by trying to encourage people to make all property communal. That was kind of dumb. NOT going to happen. I thought the main problem with it was waiting for it to reach a threshold in my city, so that I could find people in my area willing to meet together and that wasn't looking likely. Of course, in Utah, many people think that religion is the only means to utopia, specifically Mormonism, which provides next to nothing except some rare bones for helping to ease social problems and outdated ideology. I think it will come, and I was somewhat positive about the fact that they rely on ideals such as extrication from the paradigm, or the center of current society to be able to think about and do things on their level. Yeah, it sounds kind of cultish, but they have a very good point, that they probably will only be able to achieve their goal in that specific way.
the point is we have the technology and the means NOW to begin to make our way toward the goal.. we just need more people to understand.. you understand but sound as if you've given up to a degree on the concept.. am i correct?
if you really investigate the nature of "ownership" its antiquated.. in some cultures people still believe they "own" their wives.. in a different society.. what do you really need to "own" ?? i know it is a far reach in today's mindset but think about it.. i know you already have.. i don't have anything i need to "own" in a restrictive sense...in a world where there is no need to buy or sell... meaning if im holding a cell phone and you need to use it... hear you go.. then when you're done hand it back... you see those bikes over there? ok.. take it and ride to the store and come back.. there are others laying around as welll, etc ... looking back at these words im not articulating myself as well as i would like to.. but i get the jist of the idea of not needing "ownership" in a society where everything is "free"
18 minutes! well "spent" TRUST ME
Invest your time here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/family-food-gardens-this-is-the-solution/
This is a ridiculous video. All economies are resource based - the need of resources versus their availability forms the very basis of all economic logic. More, science does not direct society, it is a tool of society - it's you and I, in search of solution, that collectively choose the path or direction of our science.
Worse, it completely ignores the human element of subconscious desire - we're not robots. .
The anti-economy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbBVVlkstP8
Also yes, science is directed by people and will continue to be even in a RBE. The difference is that most RBE proponents advocate using the scientific method to validate and falsify major decisions with evidence.
This prevents mistakes from occurring through testing rather than waiting to fix them after implementing the decision. Politics and Economics rarely take into account human factors, and environmental impacts until after mistakes are made.
But people are not robots... do you not suspect that human desire might somehow serve to corrupt such a perfect efficiency? What of "humanity"?
You are suggesting that government be our master, rather than our slave.
There is no government. That's the whole point.
When surgeons perform surgery, they don't rely on votes nor opinions to guide them. They rely on evidence, and prior testing. They collaborate with other surgeons and scientists to improve the process. This is democracy applied based on knowledge. They apply the opinions and recommendations of other 'informed' individuals to solve problems.
The prime reason so many are corrupt is because the addiction to power is promoted, and enabled by the current system. The monetary system is competitive and encourages differential advantage. It emphasizes scarcity and fears which people then 'capitalize' on.
When people have what they want and feel fulfilled they don't want more. Human desire in the average person can be fulfilled. If they can't, then what you are referring to are addicts that have insatiable greed. And yes, precautions should be implemented to prevent addicts from making important decisions but that shouldn't stop us from trying to build a better society.
Technology can free us or enslave us. It depends on how it is used and implemented.
Technology must either be your master or your slave. As your master it IS government. Who controls the strength or direction of this technology? And would you not then call this person, or body of people, or machine, a dictator?
The planet is not inhabited by robots - we are a diverse population which is highly nationalistic. Identity, and the resultant "nationalism," are evolutionary and we will never be so technologically advanced as to deny our own biology; to do so would be to transcend humanity itself (literally).
But if you do implement this let me know, because I want to be the first dictator. You know, with me it's a power thing.. those who have the power are not only granted a voice but the actual ability to affect change in their lives. I suppose, viewed within "Humanism" that is what individuality is all about - empowering ourselves against the Master.
"Identity, and the resultant "nationalism," are evolutionary." So is a RBE because it isn't a perfect utopia. The system is designed with the intention of upgrading itself based on new information and knowledge.
The monetary system is your master right now. So is the current political system which supports it. This is because you MUST work in order to survive. You MUST adhere to the social norms in order to lead a fulfilling life. You MUST have money in order to obtain access to goods/services.
A RBE is about freeing people so they aren't forced into making such decisions. It is a system which clearly states the principle of creating sustainable abundance for the benefit of humanity.
It's funny. You associate the system to a dictatorship and immediately elect yourself as supreme dictator because you want to empower yourself. If you want to empower yourself, educate yourself, and contribute.
What is your alternative to 'attempting' to create a society of sustainable abundance?
Can I approach you with a better idea? Use technology - use "nanotechnology" - because it has the ability, or holds promise of an ability, to create a free world of abundance. It's a world in which everything we could possibly desire is created instantly with but a freely gathered nano-seed. When we eliminate all desire for life sustaining resources, and meet all greed with free and unlimited material possessions, all manner of luxury and comfort, we will finally embrace the humanity we would like to be.
We're on the same path and our differences hold much promise.
I hear you.
Yes that would actually be a huge step up from 3d printing. There are many many suppressed technologies which are not being utilized to their full potential. I've heard similar proposals with antimatter/hemp as sources for fuel and turning water itself into a battery to store energy.
I honestly could care less how we arrive at a post scarcity society. I simply advocate a RBE because it is one of the easiest to relate to and it emphasizes a shift in human values. Hate-filled people with powerful technology (e.g. nukes) can have disastrous effects.
So a value shift globally is necessary.
Good luck with that.
Trust SkyNet. The robots can do no harm. Paradise awaits. Slavery is freedom.
I've watched this several times, his ideas have been debunked. This would be a system of absolute control, absolute totalitarianism.
I cannot believe this Stalinist idea of scientific dictatorship is being repackaged and promoted by so-called "lovers of freedom and democracy".
disagree that the ideas have been "debunked" it took the Vatican centuries to concede they were wrong in persecuting Galileo ... this is the direction of human evolution.. "stalinist" ?? sorry .. speechless.. PLEASE BEAR IN MIND, THIS CONCEPT TRANCSENDS ALL PREDESESORS YET TAKES GREAT ATRIBUTES FROM MANY.. WHILE INVENTING NEW CONCEPTS AS WELL IN LINE WITH CURRENT TECHNOLOGICAL CAPABILITIES..
No it does not, it rehashes them. In fact there is nothing remotely new about this idea, except that the human dictator is replaced with a computer dictator - the perfect tyrant.
Yes, I would worry who programmed the computers. They might decide to come and mine under your garden. http://occupywallst.org/forum/family-food-gardens-this-is-the-solution/
why are you so hellbent on seeing this "debunked" .. what is your proposed solution.. to the current state of affairs and trajectory?
Centralization of power IS THE PROBLEM
The solution is to decentralize, to create sustainable local communities. Not a one-world order ruled by a computer.
Simple answer: decentralize control over the computer(s)
Create complete transparency and educate the population so everyone can understand/ participate in the technical decisions.
Right, that's not very simple. Fresco himself stated that his tyrannical system would outlaw "human opinion". The entire system is based on centralization of power in a single computer system.
That's a misunderstanding.
Opinions will still exist however today cultural norms develop around which opinions are correct and incorrect. The significance in this is when decisions are made about how to solve issues. These cultural norms/traditions might be incorrect.
The scientific method itself relies on testing and retesting evidence to solve problems. This is where opinions and ideas are tested and weighed before implementing.
That process is self-correcting. It corrects mistakes before implementing decisions preventing errors.
The computer system is simply an extension of people, kind of how a calculator functions. With math there are no opinions when solving problems. Put it this way, if machines/computers all over the nation stopped working we'd have an extremely big problem because our culture is already dependent on machines.
trajectory my friend..
I agree. Shows you how poor our education system has become when the youth of today think this is a new idea, and a good one at that. This kind of thinking makes me seriously fear for our future.
ok. not to burst your bubble and i'm not anti socialism or ant capitalism. but... what you are pandering is reworked socialism. now socialism works very very well when applied like any other tool, for the right application. on a macro level it supports the weight of responsibility with things like retirement, allowing the public to focus more on growth. for a wage, it's total bs. if i work harder than you, i want more pay. simple as that. as castro is finally admitting, it requires a blend of the two. countries doing this are far better off than us right this second.
How much harder do you work than the next person (not you personally, but anyone in general)? Unless you broke the fabric of space time, your day still consists of 24 hours. You may be a very hard worker, but does hard work give someone the right to make a million or possibly a billion times the average wage?
I worked hard as well. I served it the military, worked in manufacting and am a few months away from getting my Electrical Engineering degree. When I get my degree, I can expect to make between 60k-100k per year. At the same time, there are investers that are doing next to nothing making multi-million dollar salaries by letting there money sit in portfolios. Hell these people pay people to do the work for them. Are you still going to say hard work is the only factor that decides how much a person should make? How much money you make has almost no correlation to how hard you have worked and is more depedant on the environment you were born it. I hate hearing people say "I worked for it so it's all mine". We have such an integrated economy that just about everyone in the world has contributed in some way to your wealth and world views.
The guy at UPS load freight trucks works his ass off and gets paid about $10 per hour. The guy putting shingles on a roof works his ass off. The guy picking up our garbage works his ass off. Policemen, teachers, social workers all work their asses off. Do you still believe that hard work equals dollars?
" does hard work give someone the right to make a million or possibly a billion times the average wage?" no no no... not what i was saying. but kinda it was. a guy pushing a pen is not working as hard as the guy at the end of the shovel. thats my position. i cook by night and write software for web development by day. if you're interested in doing this for the long term i am taking a poll here > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?hl=en_US&pli=1&formkey=dFlNNHJTRlZwMWs5ZjlhTWN0NlZReHc6MQ#gid=0
and have some resources mixed with my blather here > http://blog.richardkentgates.com
my friend have you watched any of the videos? what you are saying leads me to believe you have not.. in a rbe, there is no working harder for want of higher pay.. if you want to work harder you are free to do so.. but since no one is competing for resources we are only looking to constantly inspire, whether through art, technical innovation or what have you.. please take the time to look into the movement.. i have a scientific mind.. and i was VERY HAPPY to come across what i've been looking for
How about if you had a voluntary option to work at all?
There's no money in it and most occupations can either be automated by machines or have no use if a monetary system didn't exist. Many other jobs can be reformed to further cut down the need for human labor.
Prestige should be the reward for working hard today, one's survival should not depend on it in this 'technology dependent' age. We currently depend on technology yet have never utilized it to truly create abundance.
ok man. check it. in 50 years there will be no need for labor. right now we need to fix our path to the immediate future but the next crisis is always just around the corner. you wana think big, how are we going to structure the world when we only need about 10% of the population to operate society. not blowing you off but if people don't think a little more practical and stop trying to reinvent the wheel all at once, we will be fkd.
Actually the labor shift can occur much sooner but in the meantime if you want to know how to exit the monetary system.
Simple answer: become as self sustainable as possible.
Start by creating an abundance of things vital for your survival.
Food, water, warmth(energy).
If you own land replace inedible crops with (organic) edible ones. Use permaculture practices. Obtain your own solar or wind power
Basically, the green movement covers most of this.
Here are two examples
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrMJwIedrWU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tScuHwVtRcY
but those ^ are just two very low tech examples. Again we have technologies to increase the efficiency many times over.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqv0Y1t1bNw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppkq3pdQoJk
As far as restructuring the world on a mass scale, here is an explanation from a TZM member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnpEyRSWncU
One from PJ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SQqjTxI3vc
and one from Jacque Fresco/ The venus project
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWjNg7i2zNk&feature=player_embedded#!
well, i don't see the lack of labor as quite so apocalyptic. we will be fine, it's just there will be no way to make money. there will be plenty of affordable supply. but we need another system of making money.
If everything is in complete abundance why is money necessary at all?
Distribution can be determined more efficiently through alternative means.
because humans will always strive to do better and that process will always be uneven. just because labor will fall to the side doesn't mean society and human behavior will. people will learn to interact in different ways and there will always be some sort of performance to evaluate.
Yes humans will always strive to do better but we don't require money to evaluate their success nor their performance.
Money should also not be the indicator of who starves to death and who will live in abundance.
The only rationality for money is to maintain differential advantage which in many cases is often not earned and unnecessary in this age of technology. It is a false justification for treating certain people as superior and others as inferior.
Thank you.
That's the problem with much of the thought here at OWS and a problem with the thought across the entire nation.
That only one way is correct rather than realizing that both sides have legitimate points and that some marriage of the two competing ideologies is the most efficient.
Pure capitalism and free market is wonderful, in theory, but in reality corporations need policing. Greed ends up putting a price on everything - including morals. It's been reinforced over and over throughout history.
Unfettered socialism/communism is wonderful, in theory, but in reality governments need policing. That much power being consolidated to a federal level is too much power to handle. The road to ruin would be paved with the best of intentions and we would ultimately lose all freedoms.
A blend of the two is required.
The first step to this is getting money out of the political system. So long as our politicians are for sale, we cannot have meaningful discourse or change.
word, check it out, poll here > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?hl=en_US&pli=1&formkey=dFlNNHJTRlZwMWs5ZjlhTWN0NlZReHc6MQ#gid=0
and resources + my blather here > http://blog.richardkentgates.com
Done.
This is ridiculous.
if you say so
Hippies reborn
aboslutely not "hippy" my friend.. have you looked into it.. or is that a blanket statement? this is intelligence cubed