Forum Post: Republicans hate Government, but yet, want to work for the government & get ELECTED to it
Posted 12 years ago on April 4, 2012, 8:34 p.m. EST by Puzzlin
(2898)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Is this a duality or what. It's like saying you don't like eating all while turning into a fat slob pig.
What you say???
Make it good. I will reply to all comments on this post. Take a shot, but be nice!!!
Also, this is A NO TROLL ZONE, LoL So, if your a troll just don't wear on your sleeve and may have a good clean debate for once.
Yippy Ki Yeaaaaaaaa
GO for IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I always say this about libertarian politicians like RP. How can you be a true libertarian and run for office? LOLOL
So true. I have found that most truths we come to want around these dualities. It just is so strange that very thing they hate with a never ending passion is something they want so badly to be part of. It's downright strange days indeed.
The Puzzler
I see no others in DC wanting to stop: spending what doesn't exist, borrowing to fight endless wars, continued deficit operation, growing what is already patently too big, DC's oppressive and INTRUSIVE strong armed iron fist in everyone's lives...
much less doing anything in the direction of honorably representing THE PEOPLE and prosecuting those attempting all forms of bribery as well as giving the government back to the people...
Nothing is strange about the reality of how DC operates. They are all human and as well compensated trustees of the world's largest chapter 11, they do as they are paid to do.
The 174K a year is mere token compensation taken directly from we the collateralized slaves and unrepresented.
If you can't manage government at the state level, and in your own state, there is far less chance of doing it in DC fighting with the holder's of the note who are de facto unionized by their owned congress.
PretendHitGirl, your not the HitGirl we have come to appreciate here. Also, re-read the premise of this thread. It says this is a NO-TROLL ZONE.
SO stop pretending and pick a real name. Then come back and we may have a clean debate since you obviously are against my premise that republicans believe whole-heartedly that government is the cause of ALL our problems and therefore want to eliminate as much of it as possible an'
*TAKE THE MONEY and get filthy greedy RICH. A return to the way it was in this country at the turn of the 20th century. That's exactly what they want.
The Puzzler
have you ever read the constitution?
Yes, but it is a heavy read and you really have to read several times to really get it. There'a allot there to digest.
But wait, aren't you a one- liner troll?
The Puzzler
actually, the constitution is an easy read. very clear and succinct.
Which Planet you on?
He's not sure. It doesn't specify in the paper.
He thinks it's Planet USA.
LoL, Thanks for the clarification!!!
(These trolls sometimes are a blast!!! Good entertainment value.)
The Puzzler
At the very least, they help me sharpen my sense of humor.............:)
I should write some of this stuff down and try out open mike night at the coffee house.
That is so cool. It's wild how this stuff works out. There really is a duality at work here. It's a wonderful one.
The Puzzler
yes yes you have funny humor. but i say that Romeny is funnier then you cuz he is a clown who will lose to our tough chief. Romeny cant win attack in Iran like our current prez can!
Well, some parts are harder than others to inject my predetermined conclusions, so I made sure not to read the federalist papers so I wouldn't actually find out what the founders thought about stuff.
You are stupid.
And that's why your the troll and this is a NO TROLL ZONE.
Change your name and come back now, ya hear! And prove your point with the evident truth, that means we LOVE evidence not a pack of LIES.
Good Luck with your name change. Oh yeah, by the way, don't use another name that adds more insult. Leave troll like ways behind. You can do it. I know you can.....
The Puzzler
revenge is stupid
Some are surprised to find out that some of his biggest contributors are members of the Koch brothers oligarchy. When the threat of disclosures around the B of A and Chamber of Commerce by the Anonymous or WikiLeaks bunch was happening there were some related disclosures of names that were on his donor list that matched people attending the Koch's strategy sessions in California. So I guess RP is rubbing shoulders with the Tea Party guys behind the curtain.
Interesting.
BTW, you do know that RP says he's a conservative?
Are you saying he is not a libertarian? His platform is libertarian. He may say he's "conservative" because, gee wiz, he is running on the Republican ticket after-all, but in reality he is the head of the libertarian movement in this country. Check out lewrockwell.com or the various tea party sites.
Good points you bring up. Lew Rockwell works with people of all ideologies that want peace & liberty. Kevin Zeese & Matt Taibbi are listed as columnists at his site. Cindy Sheehan's articles have appeared there. Definitely not libertarians. Being associated with Lew's website doesn't make one a libertarian.
My experience with the Valley Forge Patriots- Tea Party Conservatives would indicate that they're not libertarian. I got kicked out for advocating peace & liberty on their Meetup mailing list. Here's a good sampling of the debates:
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8814395/
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8812052/
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8812152/
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8812165/
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8751524/
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8660373/
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8654408/
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8496851/
They also believed every goofy email that came down the pike.
Here's just one:
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8675624/
Thanks. I appreciate the links. Nothing is ever black and white, but I still think RP is a libertarian.
You're not alone. Remember also that in '08 RP endorsed the Constitution Party candidate for prez. IMHO, his views are more in line with them than the libertarians, though there is considerable overlap.
Republicans love government........unless it works for the people. They love government as long as they can siphon out the money.
Girl Friday,
You are dime on Girl Friday. The Repugs get into Gov on the backs of the rich and for that blood money they have to return it (if they ever want to be re-elected) back to the rich with interest. (And they do because their selfish and greedy) So, as the Repugs always do, they continue to lower taxes on rich and cut programs that help the middle class and the poor. That's how the Repugs made the mere mention of taxes to most folks an abomination. But the sickening part is they somehow tricked everyday normal working hard people into believing it's good for them to. It's not. Never has.
The Puzzler
They are using their religious beliefs against them. It seems that it is right out of the 5th century play book. It's an issue of control. If they destroy the social programs and talk about charity without mentioning the fact that the funding actually comes from the government then they can control the population. So, no government services with tax dollars yet the tax dollars are moved to the faith based charities.
It's one of the sickest cons that I have ever seen.
Girl Friday,
I agree totally. Those faith based charities or as Daddy Bush coined, the thousand points of light is such a sham. So, if I need charity, I have be indoctrinated into the fantasy of a God who sends folks to hell because he's jealous. What crap that is. Of course, it is a sign that backward thinking still exist. Thank "GOD" for the enlightened Thomas Jefferson who in his time steeped very heavily in religion he shrugged it off, even re-wrote the bible as a simple book of morals and removed all the fantasies about miracles and burning bushes.
Good one Girl Friday. I always enjoy your posts, your a delight!
The Puzzler
Thank you, Puzzlin.
Girl Friday,
As you know, it is always my pleasure. I'm just glad your with us.
The Puzzler
Check this out,
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/05/conservative-bible-projec_n_310037.html
If you don't agree with "God's word" just change it. They have always said with respect to English as the official language, "If English was good enough for God to write the Bible in, then every American should have to learn it."
That's funny. It has been edited and reedited so many times at this point. It just makes them look sillier then before.
It's like Grandma's antique wash tub. The sides were replaced twice and the bottom three times, but it is still Grandma's antique wash tub.The first time the sides were changed to cedar. And the bottom was changed to white pine. Then they were all changed to to maple.But it is still Grandma's antique wash tub. Oh, and the last time they made is smaller. But it is still Grandma's antique wash tub.
LOL. That is funny. It's so true!
Don't forget camping out in your bedroom.
This they like to do. I am fed up.
I'm fed up with being fed up. I am also sick and tired.
You're on a roll!
Bagel, actually. Holy donut!
Ahahahahahahaha.
And give Rush the video from your bedroom.
Are the democrats working for the people - I think no... neither party is and they are both siphoning out the money just using different guises to do it (one infra structure and big development / the other war and weapons manufacturers) - so why do you pick a side? I will admit killing innocent people for money is worse that handing any vacant or foreclosed property to landlords and banks in bulk discount packages through Fannie Mae in the world's largest land giveaway, but at this point I'm not so sure they wouldn't kill innocent people for profit also. Are they preventing war, are they stopping seed and gene patenting, are they still paying farmers to destroy their surpluses, are they still letting companies manufacture with slave labor overseas in despot nations? ...oops - yes
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(R)epelican'ts HATE. It's pretty much their entire platform these days.
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(R)epelican'ts HATE America more than any other political party. except maybe the Nazis.
Good luck with that no troll thing.
It is absolutely true that they are willing sacrifice America's well being just say deceptively, look, it's all Obama's fault. Hopefully most of us remember what the repigs have been doing for the last fours and don't fall for this facade. This is the only damn that the repiglets have been doing these last years since their other flawed leader, Bush, drug the country into a ditch and just about destroyed it.
Almost every piece of evidence says it is so, yet their overall denial is notorious.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/17/1092512/-Refute-This-Republicans-?detail=hide
Their policies are bad for the US and the World.
For anyone who doesn't believe this obvious GOP disdain for government can check it out for themselves.
For me and you, Shooz, we've known this for a long long time we're just waiting for everyone else to turn off the brainwash, and finally see this truth.
Thanks!!!
I have no great love for the Dems either, but I hate what the (R)epelican'ts have done to our country.
The derision and division they have created in the Nation and it's States is reprehensible.
Some even still try and claim that they are for small government, when nothing could be further from the truth.
And this where the money goes in politics, electing those who protect the filthy greedy rich. These rich don't need a social safety net. In their selfishness, they wouldn't care if there was none and people in this country begin starving to death. They have more empathy for MONEY.
Yes, as long as it's "their" money.
I hope like nothing else that every dollar spent on Walker in Wisconsin is wasted.
We can not give up any more ground to WallStreet and all those equally nasty "private" equity firms.
We can hope that all that money spent on Walker is POOF gone. Yes, it's like throwing money down a sink hole. That will hurt when they lose and maybe then next go-round they won't be so generous. We can only hope and MAKE it HAPPEN.
Isn’t it funny how the Repubes always talk about less government.
They don’t want Uncle Sam or any other “big brother” agency messing with their rights. The Right Wing nutjobs are committed to the principal that the government should mind it’s fucking business and stay out of the lives and rights of others.
UNLESS, OF COURSE …
1- Two consenting adults of the same sex want to be acknowledged by the courts.
2- Someone gets a permit to build a Islamic community center that isn’t even visible from the Ground Zero site.
3- Someone wants to stop them from protesting at funerals of fallen soldiers with disgusting, inflammatory signs.
4- Someone wants to hold big business accountable for oil spills that ruin the livelihoods of tens of thousands and ruin delicate ecosystems.
5- Someone wants to keep CEOs honest by limiting the amount of money they can steal from investors.
http://whyihaterepublicans.com/2010/09/18/less-government-excet-for-us/
Peace!
Now we're talking. Good Post. This shines a light right up the GOP's butt!!!
Thanks!
The Puzzler
The truth has beauty all it's own!
Peace!
I agree totally it is beautiful and irresistible. I believe we strive for it our entire lives. It is the reason, the purpose.
The Puzzler
It runs deep and as it is pursued it has it's own reward. We are made from it.
Peace!
The contraction for "you are" is "you're" not "your". It's a small lesson but something positive can come from this. To your point. Republicans used to believe in government and made the case that since they were strongly associated with business, their candidates would be better, more efficient managers, with good ethics.
Then they, as a party, switched to a mix of libertarians who don't believe in government, and conservative ideologues who (under Bush for example) were brought into government jobs based on loyalty rather than competence, and religious fanatics who were only interested in converting everyone they came in contact with. Those who were loyal included a group who were motivated to bring discredit on government, a group who just wanted to steal all they could from an entity they claimed was illegitimate, and those who didn't notice that there was a job to be done while handing out leaflets.
There are small groups who were in it for the power, like the neocons who wanted to impose freedom on the oil countries so they could drill baby drill, and those who wanted to use the military just for fun.
Looking at those groups and their motives, (you are welcome to criticize my analysis) what chance do you think there is to change their minds?
Sounds about right to me. Also, for the reasons you cite above and more, is the very reasons why the GOP will wreck this country if we don't stop them. Since they lost in 2008 they have made a very hard right turn and the right winged tea party wants to get their wrecking ball out. We already have felt the effects of Reagonomics in all it's trickle down BS. Give tax cuts to the rich and they will create jobs. Well, evidently, it's obvious that was a sham.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/if-the-rich-are-jobs-creators-where-are-the-jobs/
The Puzzler
Rhymes with scam. It is really up to the ladies to show us the way, since it is every aspect of their lives that are threatened. Maybe this time they can get some support from the dudes?
The idea of them hating government is that they look and see useless positions up top and cut them. Now its a question of if they do that or not. Since they cut the smaller jobs too. The GOP was established for social justices it moved more toward economical justice and the freedom of entrepreneurship.
The idea of a smaller government used to mean less government intervention in both social and economical sense. The whole party was set up on a libertarian base they just didn't know it at the time. This does have a down side of style meaning less control for the people elected. Now more than ever do we have the chance to have a really small government since we have such great technologies that allow them to communicate instantly we don't need as many people in certain agencies. This does not mean that we dont need delegates anymore because we do still need them.
To change something like the government you must be elected to do so.
i will edit this later to bring up more points but now i have class
edit
So most people vote GOP for more or less things will be the same way it is being run. The GOP has gone more toward a political economic freedom base. This isn't a bad thing for social means because with economic freedom social freedom must be there to to encourage that entrepreneurship. I think the idea is fix the major stuff first now and let everything fall into place.
Now why we should have more economic freedom. Freedom to do what ever you want and if you can make money at it is the American dream.
To have more business back in america we must do something drastic something that will scream come and start your business here. No federal taxes on S-class corporations this is already done but must be encouraged for them and for other style of businesses. Before you freak about no taxes lets look at the benefits. Companies charge a basic amount for products. Then a tax is put on this tax is not paid by the company directly but paid by you the consumer. This is noticeable more in the automotive market. This also could lead to the cancellation of giving tax government subsidies. Which actually make companies gain money back with out paying taxes. With these tax cuts that does not mean that the owners investors don't have to pay taxes that to must tuned up but that is something for a different post.
This is where the trickle effect comes in no federal taxes means cheaper products which can/will lead to more circulation of money and spending of money from that company. Which leads to smaller business popping since they don't have federal taxes to worry about. It will lead to a chain effect of economic growth of small and large businesses.
Now how does this all come back to the GOP and smaller government. The less government means that business again both small and large can set up freely and only have to deal with local and state issues. The federal government should be small and let states deal with more major issues. Now the GOP says they are for a smaller government and they haven't shown that in last few years but we can elect officials to replace both sides if the people so desire a place where economic freedom can happen like that.
Now ask away
So, if I read you right, you are a huge fan of Ron Paul, which does mean you wear the GOP elephant on your sleeve. (I think you mentioned GOP almost a half dozen times, and mentioned dems or progressives, not once)
Is Ron Paul your Leader?
Are you a voter? If, so, for who?
The Puzzler
No i like Ron Paul values and on a economic sense he would be the perfect president but we don't only have economic issues at hand. He would make a great VP for any of the candidates including Obama
This total Thread was about the Republicans know as the GOP so i posted a comment to argue the point that GOP is not stupid. I can do the same for every party if you really want me to but i rather not.
I probable wont be voting for Ron Paul unless he is on someone's list as VP but even then i don't know. My vote isn't set in stone so don't ask me who i vote for because most of the time i pick the night before or the day of. I a very independent thinker and i plan to be that way for the rest of my life.
Ok, that's fine. Your honest and that's a good trait. Personally I think Ron Paul has some good positions but in total he would wreck the country if ever elected as Prez. which he won't obviously. And VP for him is not in the cards either so that won't happen. He's too old to show up again in 2016. Randy, the son, will have try that one. But Rand is even more extreme than daddy so I don't see it.
Thanks for sharing your opinion. You have class and show respect. You get it back and that you should. Keep posting, we may not agree but you know what, first off, we're all Americans, and that we have in common. Our intentions honest and worthy we all want a great country. If we discuss these things we can all learn and that is what it is all about.
Keep on posting we like to hear what you have to say!
The Puzzler
No one agrees 100%
yeah i try to post useful and reasonable If you want to ask any more question about why i think like i do feel free
Daniel,
It does seem you have given this much thought. You may be onto something quite big with your thinking. So far I'm with you and I do believe we can have a very fruitful conversation here. We'll have to get into more specifics as we drill down so we can have a deeper understanding. Certainly we don't have to agree on everything or nothing really. That's why we're individuals and it also is what makes our country strong, the freedom of ideas. If we do it respectfully we ALL may learn something and become the better for it. Good Luck with your class. And whenever you chime back in and we can discuss it!
The Puzzler
so ask a question
Do you vote? And if so, have you decided who you will be voting for President this November in the general?
I think this will get this off to a good start.
The Puzzler
i edit the original post if you would care to take a look at that.
Yes i vote im a proud voter.
I have not decided who to vote for because neither side is strong at this point. I do like ideas from each side and if there was a hybrid of the two of them i would vote for that person.
It does all decide on who wins the primary i think will be Romney so i wont decide until November.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTQ1WOC9RgY
WOW!!! Tom, welcome aboard my wonderful friend. Thanks for sharing this song here!!!
Those who say this movement is dwindling or irrelevant will definitely have to ignore this song. They have pretend this doesn't exist.
And while those who are against us try knock us down with insults and ranting with not even one single fact to hold to, we continue to grow stronger and stronger. The more they beat on us the stronger we become.
There will be a huge march this summer in DC. I will be there proudly standing for what we know in this movement is nothing less than the evident truth. There not any humans on this earth that can stop the truth from becoming known!!!
It is inevitable!!! Gandhi knew and said this a long long time ago and just like Jefferson, once we known these truths that don't leave us on rainy stormy day or night. They will NEVER leave us, and we leave this planet someday realizing the greatest thing of all - The EVIDENT TRUTH.
Personally, I'm sure this WHY I am here at all. It's priceless and bigger than any of us can imagine while we still walk this earth.
Good Luck Tom, we need you, and again welcome aboard. Remember those try to curse us down with all their vitriol never have or never will have the evident truth on their side. It is the very reason they have to resort to such degrading tactics. It's all they have.
The Puzzler
yes, I too have been watching this with interest,. the 'limited government' crowd seems to run for office, cut taxes for the rich, and then cut funding to all programs of social uplift to pay for the tax cuts. (Of course the military and police state budgets just keep growing and are never cut.) these same politicians then point at the failing social programs and SCREAM that they are not working,. and should be eliminated entirely, or privatized and run on a for-profit basis.
They brake it and then call it broken, and try to privatize everything. They are transparent and fully destructive. Why do people vote for them? to save $40.00 a year on taxes. it would be funny if it where not so pathetic.
Right on jph. We need your post here. They do break the government and then say "see it's all worthless", we told you, "it's no good"
This what they want so bad to do Social Security, Medicare, student loans, and, the United States Postal Service which is barely hanging on.
They gut these programs and then claim later that they are worthless and should be abolished. It is exactly the tactic they employ. And, absolutely right again, they take the big money from the rich to finance their campaigns, and when elected they cater to those who got them there. They are hungry and greedy for power. No wonder they hate and despise the poor, for them they are as worthless as the social programs they seek to eliminate. They only care for themselves and the rich who make them rich. It is and has been about the money. This why we are exactly where we are today.
Follow the money, the evident truth is there.
The Puzzler
ditto here were some thoughts I had
http://occupywallst.org/forum/i-just-heard-some-r-on-fox-say-he-wanted-more-limi/
This sounds like something Faithless sang in a tune....There is us...The non conformists. We do not fit in we do not want to fit in. We are free spirits and we know the system is corrupt and unfair...So we go to places where people like us go find our kind normally in a music event .There are the under educated who innocently do not know it is all wrong..They rely on TV..Which feeds us lies and tells us we are going to war..We even go to war....Then there are those who DO KNOW THE SYSTEM IS CORRUPT..but they turn a blind eye and fit in and taking all they can get..Those are the people that will be judged..cos Faithless said so...No trolls..just love peace and unity
dewdney11, thanks for your post. Faithless is one of those rare bands that write songs that have very deep meanings. I'm so glad you mentioned them!
Here's the lyrics to their great song called:
Insomnia
Deep in the bosom of the gentle night
Is when I search for the light
Pick up my pen and start to write
I struggle, I fight dark forces in the clear moonlight
Without fear
Insomnia
I can't get no sleep
I used to worry
Thought I was going mad in a hurry
Getting stressed, making excess mess in darkness
No electricity, something's all over me, greasy
Insomnia please release me
And let me dream of making mad love to my girl on the heath
Tearing off tights with my teeth
But there's no release, no peace
I toss and turn without cease
Like a curse, open my eyes and rise like yeast
At least a couple of weeks since I last slept, kept taking sleepers
But now I keep myself pepped
Deeper still, that night
I write by candlelight, I find insight
Fundamental movement, huh, so when it's black
This insomniac, take an original tack
Keep the beast in my nature
Under ceaseless attack
I gets no sleep
I can't get no sleep
I can't get no sleep
I can't get no sleep
I need to sleep, I can't get no sleep
I need to sleep, I can't get no sleep
Thanks again my friend!!!
The Puzzler
THE LINK TO FAITHLESS
http://www.faithless.co.uk/
What a great idea, instead of faith let's use REASON powered by the evident truth!!!
I just wonder why people think the Rs & the 1% are anti govt. They like the govt. What they call a "free market" is really pro business regulation. The anti govt rhetoric is there to fool the rank & file conservatives into supporting them.
great comment
BINGO. You won. Absolutely correct you are! It's a Frank Luntz smoking mirror show. It all about how you frame an issue to make it seem palatable. But it's a trick to keep us any from the evident truth.
Good call my friend. We R shining the light now. Yeah!
The Puzzler
Just Nationalize,oil companies,universities,eletric companies.,banking,etc and RP will get the massage
Reason Republicans Hate Government So Much Is Because They're Bad At It! Rep Grayson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIXGH8xQ59M
This sums up what have endured under GOP leadership
Very Good Video!
yes - yes - yes
you're taking things too literal - It's just an expression.
expressions can be literal
In the time of ancient Greece this was called a Trojan Horse.
During the Cold War it was called Counter Espionage.
Today it's a RepubliCon Cult and their Charlie Manson is a greed-driven segment of the 1%. ReCon Jihad!
Thanks Jiffy. I'm with you. Good Characterization!
The Puzzler
Tell a friend... to register and Vote!
Absolutely, we need to be active and get everyone out. Full press. I'm with you.
The Puzzler
Just discovered we have Anarchist Trollers as well as Cons. In that Moveon/99% BS post. Ageist, anti-Dem, anti-Moveon.... Dropped a little anti-troll bomb on it. We should all inundate the little creep.
Why can't the left be as unified as the Right. Even as much as I hate the Right, I have never trolled their sites, I never even browse them. Do you?
It's far easier to wreck havoc then organize to do something positive with a solid message. The trolls are like grade schoolers their method is easy and simple, shout over any decent ideas that require exploring and understanding and fill the air with grade school rants filled with curse words. Simple and easy.
Yes, I've been on the other side. But that method only disrupts and instead of changing anyone's mind, it only emboldens the side attacked. Far harder to get people to consider facts and study them before reaching conclusions.
No matter which side I'm on I remain skeptical and consider only truth backed by the evidence. No evidence, No truth. I never resort to smears or name calling. Counter-productive. Not my style.
The Puzzler
Puzzlin, in this respect you are a better man than I. I agree with Nor-man Gold-man, give as good as you get or better, fight fire with fire, bring a Black Hawk helicopter to a spit ball fight.
In other forums any flaming is met with a quick ban. Not that the other side doesn't curse you down, they do, but responding in kind is a suicide mission. I've played the game, walking on eggshells. Most forums are more strict about trolls and disinfecting. The worst ones come from other forums where to conspire on concerted attack. If the well policed sites can suffer such an attack. In here, the trolls have a leash, they are almost fearless.
In a real debate, the truth should win through supportive evidence. And the deeper the subject the tougher it is to find the truth. And sometimes we just plain don't know and that's the truth. In fact, it's more times then not, the case.
The Puzzler
I've been fighting the Right since they Swift-Boated Jimmy Carter. There is no "Real Debate." Proganda. It's all about what they can get away with, whatever means to their almost always evil end. They lie with impunity so regularly and flagrantly, that when they are called on one they cry foul. I have no patience for such fraud and maleficence. Especially when innocent people suffer as a result. "This ain't not disco, this ain't no fool'n around." The right have become domestic terrorists.
This is how they play and it's how you play when the truth isn't on your side. You smear, belittle, and cut down your opponent by any means possible. When your on the side of truth you only need to make it known and pile up the evidence.
The Puzzler
Be my guest. But...
The Cons are not square dealers, they have been mortal enemies to this democratic experiment since America's inception and before. Our negligence let them turn our democracy (for the People) into a plutocracy (for the 1%). There is no evil deed to awful that they would not do to us to achieve their goal. Their rhetoric is whatever is needed to aid the cause, and has no real logic or reason beyond that. There's no winning or point to the argument beyond informing the passive observer. Cons are truly Zombies. "Truth" is mere traction to roll over us. Wake up.
I agree completely. They really have been an undertow. I remember when Reagan stormed into the presidency on the pack of lies that America was about to be attacked by Russia and our military was woefully whimping out. Russia had more military might and may take a shot while we were weak. Then he ramped up the military and filled the pockets of the military contractors. A major stimulus at a time when our economy was tanking. The repugs loved him for this and still love the jerk. It turned out the Russians were already weak militarily and was about to fold on the shell game in less than 10 years anyway, which they did. Wall down.
We had/have a big military, and most knew we would be itching to use it. Welcome to Beirut, oh never mind. Let's leave. NO, Let's have a Gulf War, Yipeee. Ki yay .... Welcome to Iraq. Not very hospitable. Hmmm Everyone knows this story, still being written. Something maybe about blowback. Reaping and sowing.
Thanks for the lively conservation.
The Puzzler
We had to endure him (RayGun) and Meese in CA, and could not believe the rest of the country went for him. But we didn't know about Swift Boating and dirty deals with hostage takers back then. We didn't know Nixons behind the scenes guy were riding RayGun into sweet revenge.
Occupy Earth Day and Get Out the VOTE!!
(could you leave me a PM to tell what text formatting you're using, HTML didn't work)
I believe that your premise points out extremes, which is not the common view within the conservative party. I think that they focus on having a smaller government that will always be under scrutiny. In addition, what better way of addressing the above view than to deal with this issues from within.
Yeah, they get in just to dismantle the social programs while handing out even more tax cuts for the rich. We know the drill. It's clear what their true motives are.
The Puzzler
Are Liberals any better. I see that both sides are really after only two things. Gaining power and keeping it. Both sides have good ideas, bad ideas and the motives within them. I think we as a people are responsible for forming our opinion on those ideas, based on merit, then encouraging our elected officials to follow those opinions regardless of political affiliation. Blatantly blaming only one side for all bad ideas and problems will not fix the messes that we are in.
What good idea do (R)epelican'ts have?
Tell you what, I have found it useful in my own thoughts to try and see the merits of the opposing sides view. My personal belief is that in most cases, a blend of ideas from both sides usually is the best. Not in all cases, but most. So I ask you to do the same. Is there anything at all that you can see would be better with a blend of ideas from both sides?
You didn't answer the question.
Why is so hard for you?
It was a simple question.
No, the question is not hard for me. Was my question hard for you? You wish for me to support a conservative point of view, so that you can oppose it with a liberal view. I have seen too many of your posts. So, badly, I just want to discuss ideas, but too many on here just want to pick sides and cuss at each other. So, I will answer your question and I hope that you will answer mine, along with thoughtful dialog on my answers as well.
Energy: Conservatives want to encourage drilling and the advancement of oil refineries. They also want to advance nuclear technology. (There are good and bad that goes with this) However, they also want to encourage alternative energy, but understand that it is necessary to promote the aforementioned technologies, so that there is not a gap in our abilities to insure the energy needs of the the U.S. while the alternative approaches are advanced. Opinion: I understand that we cannot run on oil/coal energy indefinitely and that the introduction of alternative energies are a good thing. But why, is it one or the other. Throughout the history of man, energy has transitioned from one source to another. The best argument for alternative energy is by advancing it to its fullest potential.
Democrats have allowed more drilling, however it hasn't lowed prices, only raised profits. It's my belief, that at least some of it should stay in the ground as a real strategic reserve. The (R)epelican'ts would allow the multi-nationals to drill it all, and dump it on the open market. Allowing NO advantage to the consumer.
Derogatory comments aside, whether it is the Republicans or Democrats that encourage drilling, it all is accessed by the open market. At this time, supply is not what is controlling pricing. Speculation is what is controlling pricing. (Another topic) As far as a strategic reserve, I have often wondered if that what the game has been all along. That U.S. policy (Democrats and Republicans) has been to continue to purchase and consume foreign oil reserves, insuring that over time, it is the U.S. that has the larger reserves.
Now, back to original topic. The transition of the use of energy will have to be gradual and deliberate. Of course there are corporate powers out there that will discourage the transition from current energy sources until they have control of future energy sources (ie:alternative energies) I encourage you to read a book by Edwin Black, Internal Combustion. Also, a recent clip on TED is really cool. http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/bill_gates.html
The open market is convenient to pricing, only when it is.
One of the aims of the proposed pipeline, is to reduce our supply in order to raise prices and thereby increase profits.
It's the ultimate consumer catch 22.
Not sure I am reading this one correct. The pipeline to ship Canadian oil to refineries on the Gulf will reduce supply and raise prices? Please elaborate. You may be right but I would like it described another way.
The pipelined oil is predestined to markets in Asia and South America.
The pipelines current terminals are to refineries in the Mid West.
Once those terminals are bypassed, supply in the Mid West will be reduced, creating a projected price rise of 30 cents a gallon in pure profit.
If we are talking about the XL Pipeline, my understanding is that it will terminate at the Gulf of Mexico in Texas. Are there stories out there descibing a planned by pass of this terminal?
Curious if you still wish to answer my question from above?
welcome to the forum
there are no private conversations
Part of the pipeline has been in place for a while and ends at refineries in the midwest.
The will be bypassed if the pipeline is completed.
I would like to read about that. Any links?
Any luck with getting a response to my first question?
by ship ?
I thought that is what Shooz was speaking of too, but I wanted to understand correctly. It all eventually goes to a global market for bid.
No, no defense, the difference between the right winged hijacked GOP and the dems is like night and day. Call it the lesser of two evils if you like but voting for the GOP will put the coffin nails in for this country. The middle class hangs by a thread. I want someone in government that represents us, the middle. I don't like the prospect of becoming poor. No more catering to the rich. No more!!!
The Puzzler
The Democrats are every bit as guilty about catering to the rich. Just because the run their little tax the rich more campaign, does not speak of the truth that both parties are in bed with the very wealthy. Do not fall for the fear or moral tactics of either side. Neither party is in touch with the middle.
“Like I always say, government is inefficient and full of crooks, and if you will elect me, I’ll prove it.” A. Republican
That is how they operate. Self fulfilling prophecy.
Thanks for the post!
The Puzzler
I've been saying this one for a while, I kinda like it.
Facts R Fun,
It's my pleasure my friend. I relish the evident truth and really live for it. Besides beautiful forms of Music, it always gives me hope.
And when I go to Washington DC which is at least once a month, the Jefferson Memorial reminds of just how strong it is. The self evident truth which we know immediately in our hearts is right there in huge letters with his statue towering over it. It alwys gives me stength!!!
United States Declaration of Independence
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Thomas Jefferson
We can always have hope, we built a country upon it, because the evident truth does exist and never can be taken from any of us.
Quote me: The Puzzler
Keep Posting My Friend - the evident truth is the greatest any of us can ever have. If others try to knock it down, they never have this truth on their side, which means they lose inevitably even if it takes 1000, 10000, or 1000000000 Years.
That's the nice thing about the truth, easy to stick to, if you are ever unfortunate enough to hear it from one, oddly enough, a lawyer will tell you the same thing.
It has the limitation of being completely useless, though, since it cannot be manipulated for personal gain, thus is rarely used by the 1%.
But you know this, on the plus side could make life better for everyone.
Absolutely, it is one of the pleasures of knowing the evident truth, it sticks. Not only that, it does always give us unshakable hope, although at times it seems to take a holiday. These holidays are usually bought and paid for by those who want to manipulate it for personal selfish reasons usually it's greed since their big money gets lonely and needs more big money to keep it company.
The 1% are never satisfied and it becomes like a game for them. Sadly they never really get it. This life is not about BIG money, it's rather about sharing and not hoarding. There who are rich and truly happy, give away much of their money because it does much more for the soul then the others who hoard it like a junkie.
Good Point My Friend, and your right, Facts R FUN!!!!
The Puzzler
Wrote this for you this AM, there is a tune, but I don’t know how to write that:
Rally round children,
You cannot explain,
the things that you know
They’re born in your brain
There is no explaining
There is no exclaiming
It’s the truth that you know
And you know it by heart.
I like it. It points out something quite beautiful. We know it in our heart when somethings right or not. If it doesn't feel right then it's a warning that maybe it's not. But, man, when we get one of these eloquent evident truths, it really does fill the heart with joy. This reminds why we bother seeking such truths. It's really most times hard work, but it's worth all the trouble. It sets us up for moment when the damn thing just resonants beautiful inside giving the best hope we ever ever know.
Thanks for all those facts which are always FUN. I think this is exactly what Jefferson was talking about when he said the "pursuit of happiness". Nothing makes me happier than these beautiful eloquent evident truths, it does fill my heart with joy and hope.
The Puzzler
with any luck at all, what we do here, will be to build tools that can never be broken
That's the right idea. The good ideas never ever die. Love would be one of those. Freedom another. We ignore them, trash them, ridicule them, but they stand on with no help from us and it is always inevitable they will rise to top when we are ready for them.
The Puzzler
Knowledge is power, i tell the truth, that doesn't mean I share all my knowledge, take for instance your ability to make things bold, that's power, somebody told me how to do that but it turned out to be italics instead. hey I got my transpo back today so time to decide where to spend my physical time bumping between knocking doors for the party, but come on this is AZ, and to the "park" we're not full time anymore at Phoenix, people down there ran a little on the conservative side for me anyway.
Fortunately, or Unfortunately, dependent upon which mind frame I'm in. I've usually surrounded by a sea of conservatives. But they have a tendency towards truth bending. We all do it to a matter of degree, but progressives tend to look more for the real evident truth in the facts since it also is true we are more educated. Being on the side of truth is always and inevitably the best side to pick. It fills us with purpose and meaning. We are Alive.
The Puzzler
I thought the same thing when I was down there.Most of the protesters ran the gambit from Conservative to Libertarian. Though their ideas were different than mine, It was still invigorating being around people who took their civic duty seriously. Even though I find it hard to agree with some people on the right, I think their place in the halls of congress are needed. It would be nice to have different party perspectives debating the merits of any legislation. I believe this is one place i agree with JoeTheFarmer. Though it would be nice to see Proportional Representation utilized in American politics, I believe it would need an article 5 convention, and that is a bag of worms that has multiple implications. But who knows, maybe that is just what this republic needs in order to invigoration confidence.
I can have an honest dicussion with anyone, but I don't need to listen to a doctor that only wants to lower my temp no matter what it is.
The point of the pledge would be to show the people who made the opposite pledge how undemocratic such a pledge truly is. How can officials deliberate and compromise once they have signed away their right to debate and decide? Having people sign such a pledge could make Congress even more recalcitrant and dysfunctional, but it could also show the other side how silly they are acting.
oh man I hate it when we run out of reply space, but I got it,
Of course that is the point, this is debate, I expect even if we win really "Big Time" they won't pull the bills right out here anyway.
Here's a post I put up hoping to talk about the problem as I see it in a more serious vein.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-do-we-stop-this-from-happening-again/
lol
I want every Republican to (D's too) "sign a pledge" that they will never cut taxes as long as they are in office, I don't see them tending to want to raise them, what's the point of that pledge?
well I don't mind if they aren't in the halls and I got to watch FOX to hear them I don't need mad dogs writing laws, but the feel was good people were still in for the long haul back then, I got to get down more, been spending a lot of time here
Republicans love the part of goverment that pays for war goods.Hate the part that they have not privatized yet.Democrats love to pay public lip service but take private banker cash.There is no Democracy in America unle$$.
So true, I always say follow the money. It's there we meet with the truth. OWS figured this out and it spawned this revolution which some haven't gotten but they will. The lion has been awakened and IT'S US, all of us, together.
There is hope and this movement has ample supply. GET SOME.
Thanks for the post my friend!!!
The Puzzler
Off topic. What does this have to do with Occupy?
Occupy wants change now, and that, in our current system, comes only through politics. If Occupy doesn't transform it's power into the political system we won't have anything changed. Nada.
Currently, like it or not, we have a two party system, one half of that is repugnant. Plain and simple. ANd they hate Government passionately. They see government as the problem and want badly to return to the dark days when the very Rich monopolized our Government for their own selfish wants (greed).
The Puzzler
We need to stop blaming parties and start voting for people who are independent of corporate and special interest influence. You are still in love with the democrats and reps are still in love with the republicans. Neither you nor they can see their own parties corruption and continue to support it. That is the problem, both parties candidates are bought, they are both corrupt. When both reps and dems see that, change will happen.
Voting only allows a few to rule the majority.It is not a democratic process ,But one set up by and for the elite.By voting you give your consent to fraud.
By voting we consent to be governed. If we vote for a representative who is corrupt, then we consent to corruption. If we vote for a representative who is just, then we consent to justice.
Yes and since leaders at the highest levels are selected not elected it is fraud.to participate.
Corruption exists because we continue to vote for it. Occupy's purpose is to wake the just people up to the fact that they have been fooled, voting for corruption for decades. When a just person like yourself refuses to take part in the system, the system will become more corrupt.
Well, yes, the imperfection seeps in everywhere. Agreed. No, I don't believe the dems have the answer for everything, and I don't think love is the right word for how I feel about them. I'm just not that far over the top. But the repugs are polar opposites to the dems. So, in our current system, which you can't escape, I know you want to, and that's admirable, but not likely, these parties are IT. Vote for the green party and you throw away your vote. If you don't vote then you can want change but you won't a part of it.
What I truly believe is, when the average citizen gets informed on the truth about these issues, we will actually see a ground swell of these informed citizens (who really know how to determine evident truth) we then see REAL change. Finally politicians will be held totally accountable for their actions because they have a spot light of truth shining onto them. I would LOVE this. But we not even close, and not likely in my lifetime. (Not that I wouldn't try, but be realistic)
It is the evident truth we need. But as you likely understand the truth is not so easy, it does require effort, understanding, and a clear head. Most times when we act from emotion we easily can miss it even if it hit us square between the eyes.
The Puzzler
So who will you be voting for, a political party label or a person?
Generally, since I don't relish having the repugs to reverse everything we fought so hard for, the clear choice for me is democrat. My son is 22 and is in his senior year in college. He has health coverage solely because of the new health care legislation. Otherwise, he could not afford and neither could I. In that case, his future would be in peril if he had an accident or health crisis.
The repugs always have catered to the rich. They really care more about money than real people. Their focus is always money over people So, for me, I'd have lose my mind first before I could vote for the repugnant party. I bet you guessed my answer anyway.
Personally I have had periods in my own life where I could not carry insurance (cobra $$$) and was wide open to disaster. My choice in those times was, eat, or have insurance. I chose to eat. So, yeah, my life is directly affected, like many of us, by who occupies the house in DC. The repugs did nothing for the middle class but squeezed them.
As an EE, I enjoy a fairly decent income. But I only do well if everyone has opportunities and has a chance to make it in this world. I care what happens to these other people. It matters to me. I'm in good health but maybe some day I'm the one who gets hit. Who knows. I hope for a world that can show more compassion for others, not this free for all, where we no longer care. It's the mentality that if you didn't make it then it's all your fault, so screw you and get your hands out of my pockets. I made it and I don't have this attitude. I truly care and think that most people are good. We in this together, it's the very reason we have a government at all. Social Contract.
Thanks for the post JR
The Puzzler
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The next R to resign the position will be the first
Reps don't hate government, they (in theory) just want government to act in accordance with law. There is an obvious need and role for the federal government, but that is limited by the Constitution. Our government today is a perverse version of our nations intent.
I guess this would be why we have a Supreme Court of the United States. But the GOP doesn't really like that either talking about Laws, and acting in accordance to them.
For instance, if they strike down the new healthcare law they'll LOVE SCOTUS, but if SCOTUS upholds the new they'll HATE them. We've heard this all before as the GOP talks out of both sides of their mouth. They bash SCOTUS when they act they way they don't like but praise them when they do act the way they wish them to. Like a fair weather friend. I like you when the weather is good but not when it's bad.
Also, strangely enough, it was Mitt Romney who enacted this same kind of Health care reform in Mass. They loved the idea then but NOW they don't.
So, your statement: "they just want government to act in accordance with law." is pretty much a lie. Apparently it's a lie you like since you defend the GOP's "fair-weather" behaviors.
Also, how about torture. The GOP defends torturing if their excuse is one they like. But America doesn't condone torture and we are appalled if our soldiers get tortured. But the GOP seems to think we can do it but by God if our enemy does well their just plain wrong, it's not in accordance with the law, specifically the Geneva Convention.
So, tell me again that the GOP just wants to act in accordance with the law. LoL
How can you possibly defend such a misleading statement?
I gave you the facts. How can you dispute those?
Isn't Romney-care pretty much just like Obama-care?
Try answering these questions or don't bother re-posting. Your not a politician, answer the damn questions!!!
The Puzzler
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It's the ultimate in thought free hypocrisy.......:)
But then, someone has to pay them to do anything at all.
They see the government as taking away their selfish riches and they want every penny so they get in government to TAKE THE MONEY just like M.I.A. says in her song Paper Airplanes, download it, it's a a good one!
The Puzzler
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Good point.
Republicans dont hate government they just want smaller governemnt with stae controlled programs.
Yeah, and they don't want to eliminate Social Security either, as some in their party say, esp the tea totterers, no they don't want to abolish it.
They just want to gut it, bleed it out, and have it die a slow death. And, then , of course blame the Obama & the democrats for it.
But hey we'd be FREE, if we could only find two sticks to rub together.
Take a look at this previous thread on SS:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/tea-party-leaders-say-they-would-absolutely-abolis/
The Puzzler
What you say is untrue; Republicans don't want smaller government, they want bigger government in their own miserable image. They want to control people's sexuality, birth control, women's reproductive rights, rights of demonstrations and protest; they want to censor what is broadcast, displayed, or printed. More or less Republicans want to form America's version of a totalitarian state.
(R)epelican'ts have always created LARGE government, and ALEC has made them corporate lap dogs in the States.
yes yes! i agree and wish i had two votes for Obama!! repubs are evil and only lose wars. Obama is tough battle master who is making a quick attack in Afghanistin and will put smackdown on Iran.