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Forum Post: Realistic simple demands

Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 4, 2011, 7 p.m. EST by unlappeddog (13)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Here is my opinion:

If you want to be successful, your demands must be SIMPLE. You cannot expect Americans to get on board when your demands are too complex, in depth, and numerous. No one will bother to read about them or understand them, much less agree with them. This is a political movement, which means you are trying to reach out to mass amounts of people. The more complex and numerous the demands, the fewer people they will reach. Moreover, by making the demands too "left-wing" or "right-wing" you risk alienating people who could actually be genuine allies. The left-right paradigm is still very powerful and has toppled endless movements. We must look past it. Furthermore, and this is crucial, if the demands are not very specific or well thought out you risk having OWS completely hijacked by oligarchs, which allegedly is already happening. The lesser informed among us will easily fall prey to the age old tactics of the powerful if we are not careful. Lastly, if the demands are legitimate, simple, and clear, it will prevent us from looking like a "bunch of commies" meaning the American people will be less likely to identify with the cops beating protesters down, and more with the protesters. Undermining support for the police is absolutely crucial if there is to be any hope of success. If you want to take control of the streets you must gain the support of the masses. Below I am listing two demands, which are simple, which I believe almost everyone here can agree on, and which will appeal to the majority of Americans. Also, if these demands are adopted, it will prevent the hijacking of OWS b/c no oligarch will want anything to do with them. They are simple, straightforward, very easy to communicate, and I believe will maximize the efficiency of OWS. It will allow us to really pack a punch and actually threaten state-corporate power.

1) End the FED 2) End the wars and bring the troops home

Now look, I am pro-free market in the Austrian tradition. I know many of you do not like that, that is fine. I am totally willing to tolerate your anti-capitalist views if you are willing to tolerate my pro-free market views. I think we need to face the reality that while people in my "camp" and yours may passionately disagree on that issue, we have much more in common than your typical American, and if we really want to win this thing, we MUST look past those differences and join forces. I believe, in terms of priorities, ending the FED and the wars is at the absolute top of the list. This will likely generate tremendous support from the American people, potentially causing the protests to balloon into huge proportions, rendering it into a real and formidable force. And, if we are successful, it will allow us to much more easily do things like restore civil liberties and put an end to the state-corporate fascist tyranny. We must target the weakest links in the status quo chainmail, the ones that appeal to most people and the ones that if they are destroyed will greatly disempower the establishment. The thing that most scares the establishment is us putting aside our less important differences and joining together, if even temporarily. Once we break the leviathan, then we can debate our differences, but until then the enemy of my much, much greater enemy is my dear friend. What say you?



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[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 12 years ago

i agree, end the fed, end the wars, and promote a FREE market system. I don't agree to the simplicity of this list. The way to get over the left/ right wing duality is to run open source science centered problem solving process and confront all of the BS- on both sides. People like you think this is extraneous. you don't understand that its the ONLY THING that can make REAL CHANGE happen.

[-] 1 points by unlappeddog (13) 12 years ago

okay, so as far as a political message goes, you agree.

i did read your post, i'm just not sure what half of it meant. it's not that i am trying to ignore what you wrote, it's just that your ideas cannot possibly be communicated to the masses in a short time. i am not saying you shouldn't try, i am just saying that they will not work as the platform for OWS. perhaps if you made a youtube series laying it all out in clear terms it could be spread around, but again i don't think it will work for OWS. we need simplicity and directness. shit people can easily understand.

"open source science centered problem solving process and confront all of the BS- on both sides"

please explain, i am willing to listen.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 12 years ago

i agree. I'm not trying to share a platform for public consumption, i am trying to duly educate OWS itself. some kind of very focused message is required. yours is a fine example but i think its too short by half or so . on the flip side.

we need a forum for every major political issue and every major scientific discipline and then we need to do that homework. Until that is done, everyones running around in ignorance. Some idiot fool forum mod jus banned me from irc because hes either a socialist or a capitalist and i am explaining that neither system has any merit or has ever been actually tried.

The organizational nightmare ensues. bringing order to chaos is not an option; its an absolute essential. if they only create your nice short list but don;t do all the other work i described they will have NO effect. at all.

Things are complicated. we can't run away from that complexity we must face it and tackle it for real; or we are just kids playing games and kidding ourselves.

[-] 1 points by unlappeddog (13) 12 years ago

okay, i agree that the issues are very complicated.

i've been trying to explain complicated ideas to people for years. the problem is that, unfortunately, people are stubborn and oftentimes refuse to listen to anything which contradicts their worldview. spreading more in depth ideas and theories is very important, but it is also very difficult and time consuming. unfortunately, you will never have uniformity on all matters political and scientific. that is why i argue that we must narrow our focus onto a few things which most people can support, but which will also be most effective in bringing about a world in which the 99% aren't ruled over by a tiny elite.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 12 years ago

your narrow focus is a true good idea in a limited sense. yes achieve that focus. but don't get blind sighted by things in periphery; deal with them also.

the best WAY to get that focus isto have evolutionary answers to the 1001 issues so you can answer, and then change topic back to the focus issues.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 12 years ago

we need realistic and complicated details. a laser beam focus on some few issues and then a very large marketing net.

to get serious requires a few things they don't have. like chat admins who aren't ego serving propaganda tools, a wiki, 1001 sub forums, an actual game plan, a straight up political platform... you know.. basic organizational things sane people do BEFORE protesting.. like figure out a diplomacy and logic centered metaprocess to give their chatadmins so that they don't really just drive out even more people than the trolls. Adminatrolla. trollaAdmin. Whats the difference to somebody whos got the truth facing a propaganda tool abusing admin powers to push their agenda? how can you prevent such a thing? Metaprocess. did i mention metaprocess? and science diplomacy science psychology science sociology and all those textbooks to read B4 protesting?

you can't have capitalism without a free(SLAVE) market. but you can have a free market without capitalism. And thats strangely the only way it CAN work.

Marketing 101 was fascinating. I admit thats a lot less than a bachelors but its sure more than enough to see whats really going on given the other things I know. Capitalism is not the problem since it does not exist. corporate oligarchy is the problem. capitalism has never been tried. I am a democracy guy. in order for real democracy to function a free market system is required. Thats not capitalism. thats a free market system. there is a subtle difference there which most people would miss. I will again repeat. Neither capitalism nor marxism nor communism nor socialism has ever existed. All of those governments were oligarchy pretending to be something as a con scam. Telling that simple truth gets one banned out of the Chat by either a capitalist or a socialist whos pissed you just said their pet ideology isn't real. It isn't. anybody who thinks that it is is accidentally playing for team corporate oligarchy as a tool. the ONLY system worth talking about is DEMOCRACY. how democracy HANDLES a FREE MARKET system is dynamic and interesting and NOT capitalism.

o. yes. no. yes. what? making change is not reliant on changing the money system one tenth as much as it is on changing the informational ecology. Going to a gold standard as an idea is a proof of ignorance, not a solution. Really the end game is we evolve out of money. To do that we evolve first new currencies and new economic strategies. this leads to economic singularity in about 50 years. If everyone is a millionaire how much you get depends on exactly the material valuation of that money. Which is to say that by the time money becomes obsolete everyone will live like the current millionaire. Tangible items to other tangible items? the real economy is about ideas, change the ideas and everything changes. the problem with the tangible economy is it does not change; its a static reality. you can't make a meaningful gold standard with only enough gold to represent on millionth of the economy. You can make a purely imaginal money system work; but it has to be subject to moral and ethical laws. This is about pinning down those moral and ethical laws and implementing them in new currencies; not trying to imagine a control freak impossible non solution because of the simplicity with which you go about thinking over the problem.

[-] 1 points by unlappeddog (13) 12 years ago

every single post in response to my thread has been pretty much gibberish. THIS is the problem, NO ONE is going to understand WHAT THE FUCK you are talking about! your post is all over the fucking place.

can you at least get on board with my two demands and my reasons for promoting them?

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 12 years ago

i feel and hear your frustration. I have been here now for most of a week and dozens of people come in here and say "this is what i think your simple demands should be.." without reading or replying to anybody else. Do you think you can actually read and reply to the demands of others or talk about their reasons for promoting them? "Simple" is great where simple is focused and we need to get a core message across. its rock stupid where we need a 1001 plank political position platform. So you missed out on the complexity, over simplified, and now you want me to listen to you but you have never really taken the time to listen to anybody else.

[-] 1 points by Ukko (3) 12 years ago
  1. student loan amnesty
  2. tax the wall street
[-] 1 points by unlappeddog (13) 12 years ago

you will not gain support with these demands, they will go nowhere. you need to target the heart of the beast with demands that could actually gain mass traction.

again, you want A) demands which most Americans can agree on and which are true to the principles of 95% of OWS, and B) demands which, if met, will maximize the impact on the establishment

yours follow neither of those criteria.

[-] 1 points by Debby (7) 12 years ago

October 4, 2011

The problem is crime committed by the highest powers that be, because they refuse to regulate the federal crimes committed by the financial elite. There's your purpose.

You know what? This is what happened to me and the main bank that did this was not a national bank when they did it. We should take our money out of banks period. Yes, in a mattress would be safer place to put your money than any bank in this country today.

In the vein of “Too Big To Jail” and “Occupy Wall Street Protests On The Brooklyn Bridge” you should know about an unknown, which I’m here to tell you about. Financial matters are much worse than the public realizes and my story affects all Americans. Yet, what’s happened to me sits behind closed doors of secrecy starting with US Attorney General Holder.

The truth is we are living in a financial holocaust created by the small banks, national banks and financial institutions; sanctioned by our government authorities.

Did you know that any financial institution can pluck millions of dollars right out of a named trust account and get away with it in this country? The victim is then instantly thrown into the streets, with their credit unlawfully destroyed; unable to get employment and does not qualify for government assistance. In my case, I was an independently wealthy woman who spent her life raising three beautiful daughters and had just started a new business at forty eight years old; I'm now sixty two. And, not one government authority will investigate this; even after ten years of complaints made to the proper authorities. Should the public not know about this financial institution, so they can protect themselves? Besides if they aren't charged and prosecuted they'll just do it over and over again to millions more consumers.

One would have to see what I’ve seen and experienced to realize how corrupt our United States of America has become or they would have to hear about it from the authorities. Since it’s the authorities hiding these horrendous federal crimes, the victims go unheard…continually violated, and dying in the streets. I feel like I've been hit by the mafia.

What's more one can contact all their congressmen, and women, assemblymen, and women plus their senators; begging for their help and they'll ignore you. You can even write the president as a last resort...he ignores you too.

Someone needs to interview US Attorney General Holder, Attorney General Harris, Attorney General Cox or even Governor Brown and ask, “ It’s your job, and our taxes pay you to investigate these horrendous crimes and prosecute the financial institutions. Would you like to comment on why you wouldn’t investigate the federal crimes committed against this trust and woman? What other federal crimes committed against the consumer by a bank or national financial institution have you ignored and whom else has had all their assets embezzled by their own bank? And, while you’re at it please explain to the public why the state bars are hiding criminals that happen to be attorneys?” So far, the only way the public will hear my outrageous story is my book.

I've written this from behind four thin walls of a tent, where I've resided for two years.

Both the mainstream and alternative media refuse to talk or write about this. And, we wonder why our country is falling apart? From my perspective one of the major problems in the United States are the serious financial crimes being committed by the financial institutions while our authorities know all about this and purposely ignore it. The authorities' corruptions are the bottom line issues in this country. Does this sound like another Hitler situation? Only this time the killings start by destroying people financially. It doesn't matter how many zeros are involved with the assets a consumer has...everyone is subject to these crimes and there will be nothing done about it...period.

[-] 1 points by unlappeddog (13) 12 years ago

Sounds horrendous. Do you have any proof of this? Any documentation? If so redact your name from it and start making youtube videos. Post the redacted documents online and link to them. Let me tell you, AG Holder will not help you, he is a criminal like the rest of them. If your statements are true your best hope is to post it all online and make videos about it. You need to come across as legitimate and as a normal human being, not as a crazy person posting random comments all over the place. Sorry if that sounds harsh but you will not be taken seriously with this method. The yuppies will laugh and deride you, I'm sure they already have. I think making YT vids is your best bet, at least get some people on your side.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

this is more and agree and disagreeing than subject mater

regroup redo rewrite

[-] 1 points by unlappeddog (13) 12 years ago

please elaborate, what does that mean?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

pro-free market in the Austrian tradition. totally willing to tolerate your anti-capitalist views? and that means? tolerate my pro-free market views. ? are those are I think we need to face the reality ? what reality? may passionately disagree on that issue,? what issues? we have much more in common than your typical American,? typical american? and if we really want to win this thing,? what thing we MUST look past those differences and join forces. cliche what differences?

it means nothing

[-] 1 points by unlappeddog (13) 12 years ago

hmm, okay, well i still don't understand, but let me try...

there seem to be two general camps here. pro free market anti-establishment types and anti-capitalist anti-establishment types. to put it another way, these two "camps" seem to agree on many things...civil liberties, anti-war, anti-fed, anti-mega corporation, anti-government, anti-authoritarian, etc., but some are pro-capitalist and others anti-capitalist.

but that isn't the central point of my thread. focus more on the first paragraph. the demands need to be simple, short, and easily communicable. otherwise i believe OWS will fail. if we don't gain some degree of support from the masses then we are screwed. power is all about perception, we need to be perceived as having legitimate complaints or we will fail.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

lots of us are wage slaves or some form or another

I believe capitalist means private ownership of capital or the means of production unfortunately, there is a no guarantee that a person will own capital

[-] 1 points by unlappeddog (13) 12 years ago

okay, that is fine. i am not trying to argue against you, that is the whole point of my second paragraph. if we are going to be successful we have to look past disagreements on capitalism, and focus on things which A) we can all agree on and B) which will massively disempower the establishment

that is why I listed the two demands that I did.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

I agree with those demands


why are we against the FED?

[-] 1 points by unlappeddog (13) 12 years ago

endless reasons. it removes the limit placed by hard currency on government spending. as a result, it allows for the massive expansion of government and corporate power. one example would be all of these wars, which would be impossible without the FED. another example would be all of the bailouts of megabanks and other huge corporations. many of them are screwed without the FED. also, the FED allows for the centralization and consolidation of economic and political power. this means the federal govt can largely take control of state and local governments, infiltrating their police forces, etc. the FED also massively devalues the currency, causes huge malinvestment, is mostly to blame for the boom/bust cycle, etc, etc, etc.

why are you against it?

[-] 1 points by revg33k (429) from Woodstock, IL 12 years ago

Check the link after the edit mark on this page for a working list of goals http://occupywallst.org/forum/first-official-release-from-occupy-wall-street/

and this Warning from the original Tea Party before it got hijacked http://occupywallst.org/forum/an-open-letter-and-warning-from-a-former-tea-party/

and this list of usefull PDF files http://occupywallst.org/forum/demonstration-materials/