Forum Post: Racist, sexist, offensive viewpoints
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 25, 2011, 6:04 a.m. EST by blazefire
(947)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Well after trawling through this sight for a while, I just wanted to point this out.
If I wanted to bring this movement down, the very first thing I would do is send as many people as I could to this very place, claiming to be OWS'ers. Then I would pay them to spout anything that could discredit this movement. I would get them to offend as many people as possible, all in the name of OWS. I just want to say here that this sort of back-door politics, and espionage, is exactly what this movement seeks to end.
If someone is being racist, offensive, or otherwise misrepresenting us, ask them a couple of pointed questions.
How much are you being paid to say that? And who's paying you?
People will often do whatever they can to return to what they view as 'normal' life. The news, politicians, their friends, have told them that everything is fine. You needn't bother as there's nothing to worry about. Here's a whole website, and mass of people telling them the exact opposite. Not only that is everything NOT ok, but that now they've got to get up and do something about it. It's very stressful. If Occupiers are wrong, stupid, and dirty, well they can go back to normal. Everything's ok again. Why do you think they keep up the 'just go home' chant? If they just went home, they could forget it ever happened, and go back to normal.
Denial is a powerful thing. And we can see our entire race is not only affected by it, but afflicted with it.
I simply couldn't agree with you more my friend.
I doubt anyone is paid enough to continue with the intensity you see here. Most of these assholes are just bored and have no life except here in cyber space.
I find our elected officials incompetent to govern. They need some incentive that will mean something to them instead of putting funds at risk that will cause harm to those persons and institutions who can least afford such loss. I suggest that these officials’ pay and/or benefits be cut if and/or when they fail to do their job. As it is, party “a” threatens to harm parties “”d” through “z” if parties “b” and “c” can’t come to an agreement. It makes no sense whatsoever to threaten Congress with cuts that will not have any impact on them directly. Our Constitution establishes the type of government we are to have. We do not need to establish any “sub” groups within these institutions. They are all responsible collectively to govern and if/when they fail to do so they are all liable collectively. The “carrot and stick” method only works when the carrot or stick is guaranteed to the same one. These officials have received their carrot upon being elected as they shall receive full pay and full benefits for the rest of their life even if they only serve one term. I say put all options “on the table” including their lifetime pay and benefits. I’m of the position that such a “stick” would cause these officials to get their head out of the clouds and their feet on the ground.
Well if I keep agreeing with everyone here I'm going to nod my head off...lol... More seriously though...
I would argue that we put our leaders into hopeless position where they MUST inevitably fail. The entire system is set up to ensure that they end up corrupt, or end up no-where. Even when an 'honest' politician (not the norm) gets to a position of power, they normally have to focus so hard on their politics, that, the very reason for their politics is almost forgotten. This is world wide.
What we need is a system, that requires NO LEADERS. Period.
I have a suggestion on how this may look...
http://occupywallst.org/forum/yourtopia-your-official-final-beginning-perhaps-no/
Check it out.
Thank you for the cite info. I will read it after work. Would you elaborate on how you believe: “ we put our leaders into hopeless position where they MUST inevitably fail. The entire system is set up to ensure that they end up corrupt, or end up no-where.”
Hmmmm.... without going i to too much detail.... I think there are 2 sayings that coupled together sum it up nicely...
"Power corrupts, and absolute power, corrupts absolutely"... and,
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
Is it politics we should discuss or politicians? Or is it human nature itself? Or none of the above? We need to look at this system 'zoomed out', in terms of an international AND chronological viewpoint. When we do that all of a sudden ALL heirarchial systems are exposed for what they are... intrinsically flawed.
Thank you. May I? It’s been said that as bad as our (USA) government may be, it is still the best one running. I am paraphrasing but the point is relatively clear. So, in light of that I would have to say that it is “politicians” that we should discuss as opposed to the system itself. As I am sure you are familiar with good people who are put in compromising positions and retain their character. Just as the reverse is true. My position is the longer even a good person is exposed to the temptation of more power/money the more likely they are to succumb to that temptation. I am basically advocating for term limits imposed by the voter since they (politicians) have yet to come to an agreement on this as well. This is in addition to my “carrot and stick” philosophy. Greed has free reign when there is little to no punishment for being greedy.
Thank you also!!! I'm not being offensive but....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
The USA government isn't the best running. Having said that, no country has a GOOD system. It's really simply a choice between bad, or worse. Again I will say that I think we need to 'zoom out', and tackle this problem for what it is; ie: not localised to ANY nation, American or otherwise. This is a global issue, and, I think until it is dealt with on that level, none of these problems will end. Whilst the people (insert nation) are too busy worrying about the people (insert nation), none of these issues will get resolved.
And I love your thoughts! Can't wait to hear what you have to say about that material!
If there is a better country to live in I would appreciate your sharing it with me. Seriously. I understand and respect your philosophy as to changing the global issue. Perhaps I am naïve but I have always subscribed to the position that it is best to advocate change from the bottom up. That is, get my/our house in order before attempting to get our/my neighbors’ house in order. Thank you for the compliment.I look forward to hearing from you as well.
Check that link out.... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index) it lists countries, by standard of living, through varied categories... and the U.S. doesn't make #1, in any single area, and, falls remarkably short in several.... not that it matters... but you did ask... And I don't think you are naive! I think you are sane! How else could one expect to live? If we all focused on the top, we'd never get anything done, at all, lol!!! Which is of course one of the main reasons there are problems at all... too many people TRUSTED their leaders. and didn't look to the top. And for too long.
I don't blame them/us. After all, it's only been in the last 50-60 years that we have acquired all the technology and how were we supposed to know where all of this would lead? We have never faced anything like this before.... not just America, but humanity.
Thank you. I checked out the site and bookmarked it for additional research. Nevertheless, “The United States is the top desired destination country for the 700 million adults who would like to relocate permanently to another country. Nearly one-quarter (24%) of these respondents, which translates to more than 165 million adults worldwide, name the United States as their desired future residence.” http://www.gallup.com/poll/124028/700-million-worldwide-desire-migrate-permanently.aspx There is a reason this many people want to leave their homeland. This also supports your position of a “global” crisis. It doesn’t help the position that there are “better” countries to relocate to though. Unless one argues it is the lack of access to the statistical info you offered. I am of the opinion that enough people have become aware of the problem(s) here in the U.S. and have been in possession of this knowledge long enough to decide that it is time to go beyond discussion and move into the action phase. I further believe that the movement(s) are in need of a more specific focus. This is already being accomplished to some degree. I am going to step out on a limb here and suggest that a group of advisers be formed to assist with this goal; not to govern but to suggest and educate.
I don't think you realize the truth.... The truth is, this movement is a joke.
Why do you say that?
Blaze....you are right ask them questions like the reason this whole movement started and what it is really about... The one or actually two things that started it...what the govt did and when, that got this movement to take place.Blaze do you know whta it is? I will give you a hint,infact Ill tell you straight out....egtrra/jgtrra...what does that mean to you,after all that is the main reason this movement was spawned.
Thanx! I do now! Just looked it up.... Whether or not this particular piece of economic science is the starting point for this cause, is that still what it means? I would think that this movement would mean so much more than simple economics.
People have been talking here about changing not just economic systems, but political systems, legal systems, environmental systems and many more, and many (such as myself) from nations that have no invested interest in the 'american economy', beyond that of the global one.
I would argue that ALL these and many more systems are interlinked and interconnected, and, that no single place can be targeted as being 'an ultimate cause'.
Check my book out... I'd love to hear your take on it!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/yourtopia-your-official-final-beginning-perhaps-no/
I have to disagree see IF any of these so called involved,voicers want to voice for the "99%" they should know what the whole thing is about... Ill say it a thousand times,change is good,debate is good,know what you are talking about first wether you are for or against something.See I live in Brooklyn and I went down to this protest(more like a homeless camp) And I did my own "questioning"...A group of People about 5 or 6 when asked what 99% stand for their words were (ready for this one) thats because the federal government ONLY gave a 99 week extension on unemployment and should have given more(do I hear I want free money,GREED,LAZINESS?) A few people stated to me its becaue there are no jobs(well I got news for them I KNOW a few that are posted (whether they think its not good enough for them or they deserve better thats a different story,PRIDE,GREED,EGO,ENTITLEMENT),Students that think they should not have to pay their student loans(hey I do not want to pay my credit card bills maybe I should protest that I DID IT I BUILT IT UP I SHOULD PAY IT take responsibility for your actions)there are homless people there for the free food and free cigarettes,they feel like they fit in and nobody will judge the way they look,furthermore they have someone to talk to(yes sad but true) Now back to the ROOT CAUSE that is the main reason and that is the ONE thing this movement was started to stop/change. Yes it does address most almost all"underlying causes" that are popping up that I will say are from this one issue. We ,they,whoever should stick to the issues or atleast know what the issues are.
Hmmmm, o.k. I think that you really have a passion about this, and thats GREAT!! And I guess ur right, many homeless will be attracted to this movement, for all the reasons you just pointed out (including genuine 'hard luck' stories), and more.
I would also agree that the economic system and egtrra/jgtrra, are VERY relevant to this, but why stop there?
For a video version of why I'M involved... check this out...
http://www.dystopiafilm.com/
Now, whilst the governments of THE WORLD are debating things like a carbon tax, and bringing things to a military head, the arctic is in it's death spiral.
This issue is so much larger than simple American economics. If all the problems could be fixed with just a tweak by an economist, why has it not happened?
Where does that graph show peak oil/gas, and the effects on a petroleum based economy?
Or the Russian's scrambling their nuclear arsenal?
How does this economic algorithm, equate to the child sex industry, the slave industry, the 'war on drugs', the gang warfare in our streets, the social injustices in every country NOT America, and, and, and, and.....
I'm really not surprised that there are so many varied beliefs about this protest, there are simply that many reasons to protest. And for each one of those reasons, there seems to be an innumerable amount of perspectives on them.
I'm not in any way invalidating your point... I agree with it. I'm saying that it would be nice if it really was that simple. It really would be... but... its not. Whether this was STARTED through this reason... or not, it won't be how it ends, that much we could both surely agree with.
No its not that simple Blaze that I agree with...Yes there are LOADS of issues that need to be looked at and adressed in this country, in this world...but those issues should have its platform not just thrown into a mix of things that makes things so garbbled,confused and disoriented.Simply put again this OWS movement was started over CHANGING egtrra/jgtrra nothing else, and thats my point NOBODY out there involved even knows what it means...I have and I am sure the world has a load of other issues I think something should be done about as well but to use,piggyback off a platform that has nothing to do with those issues is not right. Than all you do is confuse the original issue of that platform and of yours...If something I want to change means that much to me I will start my own platform and get people to back THAT ISSUE,and hopefully people will back me and my platform but not throw their own issues into the mix to appease them and use mine as a tool or use mine as a disguies to get their own agenda(s) met.Hey if they do use my platform to help their own issues PLEASE ATLEAST know what mine was about to begin with...lol
I think the problem is to be found in egtrra/jgtrra!!!! Lets assume for a sec (I genuinely did not know it as the catalyst) that, is where occupy came from...
Why wasn't it changed? Why did another issue "piggy back", on to this one at all? I'd like to again mention the intrinsic links, and interconnectivity of egtrra/jgtrra. Clearly you have a better understanding of this matter than I, so I will simply ask you... what issue was preventing egtrra/jgtrra from BEING changed in the first place? Maybe that was the 'true', issue. Or perhaps whatever caused the issue, that caused the issue, that prevented egtrra/jgtrra from being changed was the 'true' issue?
Pandora's box is open now it seems, and a 'shitstorm' is flying out of it.
This is really just a beginning. And I think that changing egtrra/jgtrra (again assuming it to be the catalyst) was simply that garbbled,confused and disoriented to begin with BECAUSE of that interconnectivity.
What I would LOVE... if it's o.k. to ask... is a thread that better explains egtrra/jgtrra, and more, a thread that details the history of how all this began... would you be up for it?
You seem to know, well, more than I was able to figure out through these pages....
LOL.....THANK YOU BLAZE...I am not an econimic scientist I am no GENIUS and thats what it takes to explain the good bad and ugly of it..so basically to simplify why this whole OWS movement got started is to change those two things...I say those two things because I do not want to help those who no it all and are the "voice of the 99%"...can I change it NO FRIKIN WAY, do I see Corporate greed buried in there or do I see politicians greed buried in there?Do I see american/human greed that feeds the corporate greed buried in society ? This can go on forever and the truth is like you I can never explain the intrinsicity of it...Why wont it change or get changed? You hit it its probably the true issue of the issue that iwhy it did not get changed and when Obama pretended to change it he did not he left it than added something to it just to appease the masses.Now there are issues that if done away with it will raise the mid-class taxes roughly ,they say,1000.00,meaning the mid-class will have to pay about 1000 more come tax time. Is there a solution a FAIR one that can be gotten to that can help EVRYONE not the 1 or the 99 but the 100 one that can be morally right,productively and monetarily right for the country as a whole I am sure there is. Its a tough task . Again if people do not even know what it is or that its THERE explainable to them in simple terms or not than how can they/you change it? Link well against my better judgement I will offer something to look at..I just do not think I should..again if they are the"voice" they should already know what they are voicing..http:/the truth is I KNOW they can not figure it out in laymens terms,figure out a good fair solutiion and I do not expect any of the voices to do that but damn it atleast KNOW WHAT YOU ARE FIGHTING FOR (easiest yeah this is the easiset link to work off of..lol..easiest with this stuff is an oxymoron)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_tax_cuts
hmmmmm.... well.... I have an idea. I have a plan. It is a 100 page document, designed to fix ALL these issues... and I'd simply love a review....
http://occupywallst.org/forum/yourtopia-your-official-final-beginning-perhaps-no/
what is it blaze...your book? This link? I am sorry I will not open any links from here or really anywhere...lol.I just do not,thats the conspiricist in me..lol You have a book,book? You are not getting paid for it like the corprate greedy are are you???...lol..only joking with you yes I would love to read it anything so I can have and keep an openmind to things...but again sorry I do not click on links.
Here is a direct quote from my book, (yes I am Chris):
“Yourtopia”, do hereby of my own free will, gift this work to the world and, as the lawful owner of the intellectual property entitled “Yourtopia”, declare that property to be public domain. Any and all parts of this work, inclusive of the whole may be edited, published, translated, or used for any other purpose where that purpose produces profit or not, as deemed fit by any of the members of humanity. I hereby forgo any and all rights as the author and owner of this material and from any and all profits generated directly from it.
Note: More importantly, than gifting this plan to the world, is gifting it to you personally, whoever you are. I would give you this, in order to create a better world. In no way am I telling you what to say, I am simply asking you to have a voice. Be a voice. Be the representative of humanity that you already are."
So NO I'm not getting paid. This is a gift.... for you.
And here is MY email.... so I can get it to you (if you are SUPER concerned, you can always open a seperate account) blazefire@live.com.au
Otherwise that link leads to another page on this forum (entitled "yourtopia, your official final beginning"), where I'm trying to get some discussion happening in regards to my work... However I only just listed it recently so.... time will tell...
Or you could go straight to a pdf.... maybe safer for you???
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/50500650/yourtopia-your%20official%20final%20beginning.pdf
I understand you reticence... if there is another way of getting YOU this material, my gift, just ask! :)
you are a good man charlie brown...lol..looking out for my paranoias...lol..I will email you sned it to me in a pdf format,yes thank you. I was not making fun of or insulting you by saying you are making money off of it either,hey in reality thats your right and truthfully I would see nothing wrong with it. I will though look at it because like I said agree or disgree to make a ratioanl jdugment or argument you/I NEED to keep an open mind,with anyting in life. Thank you Mitch
BTW.... Now I really wanna hear your take on my book!!!
We need anyone and everyone to engage. Instead of attempting to restrict access or impose some sort of filter or silence develop arguments to dismantle those positions that are objectionable. Don't think that opposition is slowing OWS down. Seize on the opportunity to develop a more comprehensive appreciation of the task at hand, the intelligence of what OWS is up against and the skill to combat opposition. The way to bring the movement down is through over-protection and exclusion as if it is private property. There is a long way to go don't start circling the wagons.
Good point, and well made. I concede the point totally.
Here is an example of something I previously said in response to one of these remarks:
"I will stand for your right to free speech, even as you utter words like this. I will not stand idly by and not respond however."
I guess that would cover both our sentiments, and sum up what I'm trying to say.
Specifically though, this thread was intended to inform anyone that had been offended by such diatribe, that in no way does such diatribe represent us, whoever 'us' is, and most certainly does not represent me.
We need everyone here for this to get off the ground. Fundamentally, to learn how to become enough. A while back OWS developed a protocol and erased some posts and banned others as trolls. This site is about the extent of OWS history so far. So OWS was erasing some of its own history and it has really only just begun. It is not a good look but it probably reflects that OWS is still only a gesture in the right direction; still only a surface tension.
In response to "is this movement fizzing out?" My answer is this: Nope; this is just first tremors of the volcano eruption. There is no solution to present situation to help the one per cent. Keep it up, mate.
Some of them might be being paid, but you know there are literally standing armies of trolls on certain websites that will do it for free. A smart operator would just direct them here, maximizing his return on time invested, so of course they'll be snickering on the other end when you ask them how much they're paid. Many of them are just good-for-nothing smarmy kids, they don't get a dime.
Hmmmm, perhaps so. You may be right. Then again...
Whichever way it is, I really wanted to say that, view points that offend, based on race/sex/culture/religion, DO NOT represent me... or if I may be presumptuous, OWS.
care to be specific? what offended you here?
http://www.occupyr.com/General/thread.php?id=833
Theres one example. I saw similar posts here too. Stupid. I've seen all sorts of rubbish from supposed OWS'ers, advocating everything from that sort of rubbish through to establishing co-ordinated, violent assaults.
Not to mention, all the "polls showing ows failing", "is this movement fizzing out?" and more.... Stupid when this movement has attracted global support within 2 months. Name one other protest that had this much global support. Ever.
If I was on the opposite end of this camp (I'm an OWS'er for sure), my slogan to bring 'them' (us) down would be something like: Dissent, Offend, Demoralize!!!
I guess I've been ignoring all that. I do look for "challenging" posts though and try to engage. So far I have had some good experience getting beneath people's blusterings to find that they are more sympathetic to OWS than the want to admit publicly.
Thats great! We need more people sharing love in that way. And THX! :)... I too have tried to engage as many as I could. However, some posts are clearly, just either offensive, or, demoralizing, and also clearly set up to be that way. Whether or not they are just a kid or being paid is irrelevant... their points may very well 'scare off', the 99%, and give all the mainstream media, exactly the kinds of ammo they are using:
"The cause is full of Nazi's, racists, blah, blah"
Nah. People know about the Internet. The only people it will convince are the ones who were convinced before they ever knew a fact about it. Bigger danger is getting co-opted or subverted. The troll crap, OWS is Teflon on that.
Hmmmm.... yes. I do think pointing it out, is a wise move though, or at the very least can do no harm...
A little off topic, but back to the central topic, I have a book that I would really.... REALLY like to share, with this community... I'm not being arrogant, just truthfull when I say I really believe I'm on to something with this... Check it out:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/yourtopia-your-official-final-beginning-perhaps-no/
Sure, its good to remind the trolls how futile and pointless everything they do is every now and then. I think they kind of know anyway, but still.
are you in NYC or where? I'm actually in Paris. there is (was) a fledgling thing here. inspiring but... small and...???
I'm down under my french friend! where the movement is also... smallish... in Melbourne... but growing!
Je suis American! I'm just hanging here. I may go to NYC soon. Never been south of the equator, sorry to say.
ahhhhh.... well I guess it's fantastic that we can go from OWS city, to OWS city! whatever size!
Btw.... please check this out...
http://occupywallst.org/forum/yourtopia-your-official-final-beginning-perhaps-no/