Forum Post: Proposed List Of Demands For Occupy Wall St Movement!
Posted 13 years ago on Sept. 25, 2011, 3:46 p.m. EST by anonymous
()
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands.
Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.
Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.
Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.
Demand four: Free college education.
Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.
Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.
Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.
Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.
Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.
Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.
Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.
Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.
Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.
These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.
Lloyd J Hart 508-687-9153
Way too many demands, Lloyd. I'm not the only person saying this. Occupy Wallstreet needs a laser-like focus if you want to get people on your side!
These demands are inconsistent. And rather funny.
Take, for example, 1 (no free trade) and 9 (free immigration). they have the same effect, economically speaking
If Foreign is Labour abundant, then free trade would cause wages to fall at home and rise at foreign. Free factor movements (the phrase economists use to describe the movement of capital or labour instead or goods) have the same effect.
Yes, there is a consensus on this.
Try this: http://nationofbeancounters.wordpress.com/2011/10/04/this-is-funnier-if-you-ve-finished-third-year-international-trade/
Or amping up alternative energy and banning nuclear power. There is a growing consensus that you cannot reduce both carbon emissions and global poverty without nuclear power.
Look at the twenty dollar minimum wage; this is why the American left is so feared by the public, compared to the left in other advanced nations. They haven't acknowledged the dangers of structural unemployment at all. I'm always struck by how stupid the left in this country is (not that the left in other nations are any better; they haven't fixed the employment problems they created, but at least their politicians admit that they bear responsibility for them).
Yes, it IS amazing how stupid the left is, but it is no longer striking or unusual.
Remember what I said; nuclear power is as much about alleviating global poverty (a highly energy-intensive task) as reducing carbon emissions. It's the only viable alternative to coal for developing countries. Bill Gates has a cool Ted talk on this.
Obviously, the U.S. could cut carbon emissions without nuclear power, although it probably isn't politically feasible (it would push down real wages, which is the one thing politicians will never, ever do). But we do not live in a vacuum. Like it or not, we anchor the global economy, and if we slow down our economy simply to avoid nuclear power, a lot of very poor people in very poor countries will be hurt.
No nuclear power, it is irresponsible. That is the growing consensus.
Agreed. The whole point of this movement is to put people before money. You can't even mine yellow cake without killing people. It's worse than coal. We have better alternatives, the only problems with them is that the 1% don't sit as cushy. Don't give me the "it kills jobs" bullshit guys; decommissioning those plants will take a lot of work (and 10+ years) -- especially cleaning up all the waste that is improperly sealed, etc -- it will create a ton of jobs along with all the design and construction work of new non-nuclear plants, along with all the same "keeping it going" jobs that nuclear plants had.
Moron #6
Decommission over 100 power plants and lay off the hundreds of thousands of workers involved with the design, construction, operation, and maintenance of these plants? Now who's irresponsible?
Nuclear power is the key to a viable energy infrastructure. Adding MORE plants adds MORE jobs with LESS pollution at a much more efficient rate than solar, wind, or hydro.
While I agree with your views on nuclear energy, it would make for a horrible narrative for Occupy Wall Street to get behind. Don't you agree?? It's a great idea. But it just doesn't reflect to values of the protesters.
Where can I buy the Mr. Fusion thing that I saw on Back to the Future number 1? It ran on beer and trash. Doc's DeLorean ran great on it, and it not only flew but could ACTUALLY do time travel! What? That was just a movie, and not real? The next thing you are going to tell me is that those great demands aren't realistic either. Boo hoo!!!
Does the word FUKUSHIMA sound familiar to you? Holy crap, what kind of logic prefers irradiating the piss out of the planet and her people when there are other alternatives?
A few good earthquakes, a few huge floods, typhoons..... all those put the entire planet at risk when there are nuclear power plants. It's irresponsible given the fagile shape of our earth.
Agreed. One power resource which seem abundantly overlooked it geo-thermal, which, when properly implemented would not only produce an abundance of energy, but would greatly offset, if not correct for water shortages through evaporative cooling. The millions of gallons of water vapor released into the atmosphere by each of these plants on a daily basis could be derived from sea water pumped into the earth's core to provide for the steam power to run the turbine-generators. This water vapor is highly distilled water, which would no longer contain any of the chlorine or NaCl, table salt, distillates found in conventional desalinization processes. Thus, both clean potable water, and abundant energy are produced in the same single process. Combined with an intelligent use of hydro, tidal, solar, and wind energy resources, would create an energy abundance, and freedom from the international energy cartels who hold hostage the freedoms and liberties of us all, on a global scale.
I agree Geothermal is great, but it isn't perfect either. It's limited in reach because the geological conditions for geothermal power generation isn't distributed equally through the US so it's not viable for every region. And drilling those wells to tap the energy isn't without environmental consequences (the same issue with natural gas drilling). Lots of carcinogens are used in drilling and I don't want that anywhere near underground water sources.
The only real solution is to go back to the Stone Age, when people lived "at one" with nature. Yeah, they didn't live LONG, but they had a low carbon footprint and by dying off at a young age, in a couple of hundred years maybe the planet would be rid of humans and the planet can be returned to the polar bears, darter snails, and other endangered species. Who knows, maybe they will evolve into a TRULY enlightened life form!
Camille has probably never experrienced a quake in her life. The quake that hit japan was huge, quakes of this calibur are extremely rare. im talking once in a lifetime or rarrer rare. No one could have imagined a quake of that calibur would have hit. I recall there were safeties in place it just happened to be japan got a worse than worse case scenario.
1 word for you Zand: CHERNOBYL... true, it wasn't caused by an earthquake, but it was caused by something much, much more frequent: Human Error. According to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_and_radiation_accidents), there have been 19 nuclear accidents in the last 40 years that resulted in deaths or $100M+ in property damages... 12 of which were in the US. Not to mention the dozen or so attacks on nuclear facilities over the last 20 years, again a quarter of which were executed by the US. How do you factor terrorist-esque intentional nuclear fallout in calculating the risks?
How quick you are to forget about the earthquake in Haiti - which was THE worst earthquake in the last hundred years when you look at the death tolls (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/world/world_deaths.php). By comparison, the Japan earthquake ranks 19th in death tolls and only ranks 4th in terms of magnitude (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/world/10_largest_world.php) - so much for your theory on "once in a lifetime", huh?
LOLOL.
The list of 12 "accidents" (as you put it) in the U.S. is a joke right? Of those 12 "accidents", 9 of them were not "accidents", but such things as outages, shutdowns, redesigns, etc... One of those 12 was an accident (in 1966!!) that caused no casualties, radiation leak, or damage according to Wikipedia. Of the remaining two, only 3 Mile island (in 1979) was of any significance. The other one (1961... more than 50 years ago) was at a U.S. Army experimental reactor (note the "experimental"...) with three casualties. It should be noted that they were not killed by radiation, but rather injuries from physical trauma as a result of an explosion one of them mistakenly caused.
Get your facts right and disclose ALL of the information if you're going to cite them...
But it DID happen didn't it.
And yet it happened, and now the citizens of Japan have to pay for this "calculated risk". Perhaps the error was in the original calculation which underestimated the human and social costs of failure.
Zand: Once in a lifetime means it'll happen at some point over the span of say, eighty years. And the probability is 50/50 that it will happen before forty years pass. The safeties were inadequate and ill-designed. "No one could have imagined" is a phrase Condi Rice was fond of, or do you fully realize that and are being totally sarcastic, in which case ignore this comment. But just in case you aren't, consider that many people can imagine the worse case scenario if Indian Point 30 miles north of NYC should happen to fail big time. Not a pretty picture.
We almost had the worst-case scenario here in the US. Read the book "We Almost Lost Detroit", if you can find a copy.
I suppose that you've done the calculations, genius?
Tokyo 1926 was the last to hit that area.
Moron #3
Camille, how many people died from the earthquake in Japan because they Tsunami barriers were not high enough (not to mention the idiocy of permitting people to live in such a vulnerable area) in comparison to a Nuke plant that exceeded it's design capabilities?
Almost all the safety measures worked at Fukushima, EXCEPT the fact that no one foresaw the need to secure the very fuel tanks that were necessary for running the backup generators. As I understand it, had those fuel tanks stayed intact, it would have been a completely different story there. But 30,000 people died because of poor government policy in evaluating the threat of that Tsunami.. and only a couple of people have died from Fukushima.
This is just a poorly thought out comment. There are no other viable forms of clean energy. It also seems like you have no alternatives. And no, putting money into research is not an alternative.
Efficiencies in heating, cooling, cooking would provide more negawatts than nuclear could provide megawatts. Domestic uranium supply is about 30 years at current burn. Adding 100 more nukes would burn through this fast, making us more reliant for uranium on such countries as South Africa than we already are. "Too cheap to meter" was always a lie.
Moron#4
Why isn't putting money into research an alternative? I would bet that if the government spent $2 or $3 trillion on research it would not only create or save 50 million jobs, but some smart male or female bodied person could actually make wind and solar energy practical. It COULD work.....maybe.
There are plenty of alternative energy sources, starting with hydroelectric. Norway, Canada, Brazil, New Zealand, Austria, Switzerland all get the majority of their electricity from hydro. Bear in mind that Norway and Canada are huge petroleum producers, but still choose to use hydro at home!
Hydroelectric power destroys large areas of animal habitat and messes with rivers.
And getting rid of it is one of the demands in this list.
The damage is quite minor and easily planned for, compared with nuclear contamination. Getting rid of it is NOT one of the demands in the list. Where do you get that idea?
Habitat can be FIXED - we can put back soil and plant things anew. Radiation poisoning is FOREVER.
This is just a poorly thought out comment. Of all energy technologies, nuclear is by far the least viable, least cost-effective, , most dangerous, least green and most expensive. The ROI is dismal, the ecological footprint is horrific.
Makho.. Think Thorium. And Pebble Bed..
Then think about having the government involved in the safe implementation of the newest nuclear technologies, rather than adding tremendous costs via environmental and regulatory hurdles.
Moron #5
Moron #2
Casper, annoying troll is annoying...
first off, fuck you ignorant hippie. secondly, we need to advance nuclear power into fusion and away from fission, which would create almost no waste and increase the power generated by insane amounts. thirdly, the growing consensus is from other ignorant hippies who have limited knowledge of political sciences NOT nuclear science, and have no idea how nuclear energy works now and could work in the future. I guess we should put an end to the Sun to right, because allowing it to be there would be irresponsible, considering it is after all just a giant nuclear fusion reactor. you should really learn about things for yourself and not be sucked into the vortex of stupid fucks who are trying the same protesting bullshit that has failed for years to change anything. FUCK OFF STUPID HIPPIES
Fusion power is the Duke Nukem Forever of energy. It's been 'just around the corner' for decades, and probably will be for the next 100 years. Science just isn't managing to make it viable.
Wrong, moron.
You are talking about the text book notion of Free Trade, not what actually exist that is called Free Trade, which is not free at all. Current "free trade" policies are designed to protect capital, not markets and certainly not people.
@ navingrey: Free trade and free immigration are NOT the same. Immigration is an infusion of new genes, which is always a good thing. "Free Trade" is basically tariff-free imports. You were saying?
An infusion of new genes isn't a good thing if those people are uneducated and don't assimilate. One thing that Angela Merkel got right was to observe that multiculturalism has failed. Here in Germany, there is no "dial 1 for English". There are some companies that cater to English-speakers, but their customers pay a premium for not speaking German.
I've always thought that the gift of the Statue of Liberty was the greatest practical joke that France has played on any country. I don't think that they knew that Emma Lazarus's poem would be carved on the base.
@ navingrey: Free trade and free immigration are NOT the same. Immigration is an infusion of new genes, which is always a good thing. "Free Trade" is basically tariff-free imports. You were saying?
anyone who thinks these demands aren't ludicrous is a moron and should expect to be treated that way. i mean, come on. $20/h minimum wage? free college education? trade tariffs AND open borders? guaranteed income regardless of employment? strike all debts off the book? WTF guys?!
while you're at it, why not throw in some other demands like "hang everyone worth over $1mil"? coz it doesn't sound as radical as "strike off all debt on the planet". don't you (or your parents, perhaps) have savings account? that's a form of debt. you gave your cash to a bank, bank owes you the money, so they pay interests. your parents' retirement savings, GONE. thanks to you, they'll have to work til they die. kids, don't you, your parents, or anyone who know own small business? chances are they can't afford to pay someone 20 bucks an hour to work at the cash register or flipping burgers. those jobs and businesses, GONE. who's going to pay for your free college education? your mama? why would anyone bother to get a job if they're guaranteed "living wage income", which, according to demand one, is $20/hr, which is $800 a week assuming 40 hour/week, which means $42k a year even if you're unemployed and did absolutely nothing.
think, damn you, THINK! use your tiny little brain! this list looks like something written by an insane unemployed homeless guy with $100k credit card debt, or by a wall st. banker spy. seriously, if you're not working to see OWS movement fail, take this article down. the longer this article stays up in this website, the more people you'll convince to think that you're not to be taken seriously.
danlee - Thank you for stating the obvious.... Its about time that someone did!
Wipe out all debt... does that mean we don't have to pay taxes?? Because then we would "owe" the governnment? That's like debt, right? So then who is paying for this universal health care system? And who is paying for that "living wage income" that no one is working for because they don't have to? And who is paying for the "free college education"? Of course if the demands get revised to include an amount of money that every one pays out of their wages, to help pay for this healthcare system and free college education and so on, (as well as those trillion dollar projects that are also listed) wouldn't that cut into our "living wage income"?? Will that minmum wage amount increase to compensate for that? Yeah.... the list of "demands" is ridiculous, and makes absolutely no sense. The author needs to take a class in common sense, move out of his parent's basement and get a good solid dose of, what I personally like to call, REALITY. This is a classic case of someone who forgot to THINK before he started writing...
Oh and for all those people who are demanding jobs... 1, I have seen at least 5 different "help wanted" signs just in my neighborhood alone, and have found many more via internet searches. 2, It's a lot easier to get a job when you aren't sitting on your butt in a protest that is going nowhere. 3, You need to quit complaining because you feel "entitled" to a better job than the ones that are available. Take what you can get now, and worry about getting a better job when the job market opens up more and the economy is better. 4, Quit bashing the businesses. They are the ones from whom you seek employment. 5, Quit bashing the rich. They are the ones who pay you.
And PS: Don’t look for a job on Wall Street. They all hate you.
Why not add "give EVERYONE $1 million ----- no make that $1 BILLION. That would create a LOT of demand. Oops. It just hit me, if everyone is given $1 billion, who is going to make things and do things that people can but. Giving people $1 billion each is totally doable, but there may be a problem with getting stuff to buy with it.
Proposed solutions to our nation's problems:
ABOLISH FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING This would include the institution known as the Federal Reserve. Our government must then create a congressional banking committee, whose members will be appointed and approved by all three branches of government every four years, that will print Debt-Free U.S. Banking Notes backed by our precious metals reserve and U.S. Credit. This will be owned entirely by the United States Government and it will be illegal for this institution to accept interest laden capital loans from any individual or entity, whether foreign or domestic. It will also be illegal for this institution to lend interest laden capital to any individual or entity, whether foreign or domestic. It will be illegal for any domestic entity or individual to lend interest laden capital to any individual or entity, whether foreign or domestic, and conversely, it will be illegal for any domestic entity or individual to accept interest laden capital from any individual or entity, whether foreign or domestic.
END THE MILITARY CAMPAIGN IN IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN, AND LIBYA This does not mean setting a timetable for 2035. This means pulling all of our troops out of these countries today. This will include selling the Iraq embassy for upwards of 1.5 billion USD.
ABOLISH GOVERNMENT DEFICITS It will be illegal for government spending to exceed government receipts. This means that the federal government as well as state governments cannot, under any circumstances, incur a deficit.
ABOLISH CONFLICT OF INTEREST CAMPAIGN DONATIONS It will be illegal for any corporation, political action committee, lobby group, or any non-governmental organization, whether foreign or domestic, to provide capital of any kind to any politician or government employee. It will be illegal for any politician or government employee to own stock, in any business, of any kind, whether foreign or domestic. It will be illegal for any politician or government employee to accept capital from any foreign entity or individual. These terms will also apply to any individual campaigning for any kind of government office, whether state or federal.
In short, political whores are not allowed in the United States of America. You are a servant not an oligarch.
Yours, Daniel Gosser
These are not real demands. This is just some outside person commenting and probably a right wing attempt to try to minimize the movement.
I wouldn't be surprised if Casper the Clueless submitted that list. It should have been posted as an example of what NOT to say from the very start.
DEMAND FOURTEEN :troop WITHDRAWAL from afghanistan ,iraq , lybia ,somalia , ivory coast etcetc
My name is Steven Gonzales, and i live in VA. I say strike all demands and vote for this one simple amendment.
SEPERATION OF CORPORATION AND STATE.
This simple departure will cover the majority of your demands.
Think about how the church at one time dominated governments. And think, for a moment, about how the separation of CHURCH AND STATE alleviated a great deal of corruption. This one demand is what you seek . this one simple demand is the type that can unify the movement, and could actually have a chance at success.
my resolve to the separation would be this. Corporations would be forced to put money into the election fund, which would then be evenly distributed to ALL recognized political parties. NO MORE VOTING ON THE PEOPLE THE CORPORATIONS PICKED. LET AMERICANS VOTE. LET AMERICANS CAST THEIR VOICE.
The elimination of direct corporate involvement in our government will clear the mud from the water, and allow our governemnt to once agian work fro the people, and not the other way around. This one amendment would allow our governemnt to focus on the real issues. politicians will no longer have to worry about upsetting their sponsors. they will be able to focus on the truth.
How many points do you think make up lazer-like focus? I'm thinking between three and nine, easy to remember, easy to make into slogans...
You are so right! Focus the message! Make it a sound bite! Liberals suck at this, but we need to change. Otherwise this looks like a freak show.
Too late. It already look like a freak show.
It is only too late when the lights are out, I am sure you are not a defeatist, but do not give up. This is the process of change, it takes the extreme action to inspire others. The arab spring was started by a single frustrated individual that inspired a movement. A couple hundred years ago a few frustrated individuals threw some tea into the harbor and look where that got us.
Look out, they'll start calling us all tea-baggers. ;)
Not on your best day. You will never rise to their level, Moron #10.
Talkingwolf; You are just not associated to the tea party!!!
Wrong Moron #9, it takes intelligence to inspire others. Something your childish 'movement' sorely lacks. Too bad Garcia croaked and left you good-for-nothings no place to 'act the hobo'.
"Today's political economy resembles some form of fascism (ie the collusion of big government with big business) more than the free-enterprise system, and of the businesses with a hand in colluding with the state in advancement of corporatism," from http://mises.org/daily/5746/Occupy-Wall-Street-A-Story-without-Heroes
I think you young people don't understand that we are in the middle of Republican-Democrat One Party Rope a Dope. They wear us out arguing with each other while these statists' have created
My suggestion is that we tell the country that government politicians do NOT create jobs that manufacturing and industry does... that you want policies to bring jobs back to the USA.
Tell them you want USA energy independence (including Natural Gas which we have lots of and is much much cleaner, in addition to Solar, (i don't like wind farms because of the bird kill though))
That you want a balanced budget and that you don't want to pay the rest of your lives for government waste...
That the kids and Grandkids of all those in Congress who appropriate funds for the so-called War on Terror, that their kids must be on the front line OR that they have to resign from Congress...
That Congress can't get special retirement plans and healthcare that citizens do NOT get
Tell them to end the T&A, its illegal search and seizure and the cancer-causing, naked body scanners
Tell them that we are tired of WalMart importing all the shit from China....when Americans could be making the stuff..
or you could just stop buying stuff from walmart
We want our jobs back.
you're not smart enough to have a job.
then u are not part of this movemement
Which will do exactly nothing. Wal-Mart caters to the trash class, who outnumber and outbreed people like you and I.
The Tea Party movement and the Occupy Wall Street movement are really stemming from the same root problem -- corruption of the democratic process by big financial interests. Our politicians represent Corporations/Wall Street instead of the people who elected them. And what's worse they sincerely believe that these are equivalent because the modern narrative is that "corporations make jobs", "wall street fuels the market" so by serving these masters they are helping the common man.
But in both the Tea and the 99% movements what is apparent is a rejection of this notion that our hard earned dollars should be taken from us by force in the form of taxes and then handed over (no strings attached) to wall street financiers.
The difference in viewpoints is that the demographically more senior Tea Partiers want to keep what they have accumulated, whereas the younger Occupy Wall Street-ers want their fair crack at the American dream without having to bear the burden of a failed financial sector that they weren't even around to create. (and which one could argue was fueled by the baby boomers' greed). They are essentially asking that those who benefitted most from the events leading up to the crisis be forced to bear most of the burden of its aftermath in order to "level the paying field".
So the question is how to come together and join forces.
I think that the two groups will never agree 100% on the details because each has different vested self-interests due to the different demographic bases. However, both can agree that democracy in America is broken due to money. I think the single greatest accomplishment that they could have if they joined forces would be MASSIVE CAMPAIGN FINANCE AND LOBBYING REFORM . Restore democracy to the people, and then let them vote on the remaining differences as our founders intended.
The 99% includes the Tea Party
The original Tea Party, you mean. I have no problem with them.
I couldn't agree more ferretburger on the campaign finance idea. And it should be the primary demand of the ows movement. The campaigns should be fully publicly financed on all levels. Lists like Lloyds are devisive, but who wouldn't agree on a truly representative govt?
You sound like someone with the TEA Party. Thank you for your sound advise. These people making these demands are probably still living in their mom's basement. They are only following the call of the greatest community organizer ever, obama.
Before you ask the government not to create jobs, stop and think. Let take two of the capitalists favorite mules to kick,Railroad and the Post Office. The post Office is simple if they would quit stealing its income it would be solvent and they forget to tell us about the services the private sector doesn't want,like home mail delivery. The Railroads are a little more complicated. They were in the private sector until these companies figured out that they could make more money selling off the land(that they never paid for in the first place). Penn Central is still in business but now is a real estate company. Now with fuel rising and no real decline seen in the near future Railroads could be profitable again and if that doesn't work these companies will again sell off their unpaid for real estate. Now if you allow these to remain in the public sector(government) we will be able to use they're services without disruption and also as in the case of the Post Office give money back so we don't have to tax for those revenues. What we need to do is not give away the profitable section of these businesses and then blame the government for running a loosing operation
Railroad freight companies do very, very well. It's Amtrak. No one wants to ride the railroads anymore. Lionel doesn't even make HO scale anymore. You have to go to O which are more expensive and who has the room for that?
Yet in Canada, Japan, Europe and China the railroads are usually the FIRST choice for travel. This is because they are comfortable, FAST, on time and convenient (with stations downtown). Somehow Amtrak has taken the golden goose and tried to make lemonade (to mix metaphors).
I rode the trains in Europe and it was great. Very comfortable and scenic. I once took Amtrak thinking I would see a bit of America, first class accommodations and all, it was the worst experience of my life and all I got to see were fences. Nobody gave a crap about the passengers and for a trip from LA to NY took 5 days!
The USPS' problem in part is because they were forced to increase their pension fund balance on a fast track basis. Their pension fund needed to be increased but the fast tracking has created severe pressure on their cash flow.
The government HAS never, and WILL never 'create' a job, as you say. I don't know where you studied economics, but you could sue for incompetence. You are a complete economic illiterate. Exactly like your idol: BHO. You have an infantile view of the world and how it works.
What about the jobs to build roads, fire services, army etc? It is probably not good to have the government jobs be the biggest % of GDP. There are some jobs created by essential services, however, it should not be the primary source of jobs. As I write this, I ask myself why not?
Wrong. The government creates many jobs. In fact it is the nations top employer.
You don't believe that using your tax dollars to accomplish work like building highways, defending the national borders, or sending satellites into space is real work. But you believe shuffling money around by traders from one stock to another is actual work.
I feel sorry for you.
Do some research on natural gas. It's not a better option at all. http://www.propublica.org/article/natural-gas-politics-526
Moron #7
Stop calling people morons because chances are that they're smarter than you.
lol
More than focus these demands need to be revised, as stated by some below, a few are in conflict with each other. Specific demands would be hugely beneficial to the movement but they need to be educated well formulated. Out of the 99% there should be experts from many fields involved such as political, financial, social services, etc. that could discuss the issue and form solutions. The trouble is formulating the vast ideas and opinions present into various platforms that can formulate a single platform/set of demands. The other trouble is understanding that the goal should be deciphering the good of "the people" rather than just "you". That is the purest form of democracy. Some of these demands might not go along with that.
I do political science - if you want popular and electable Here's my critique: http://infrequentrant.blogspot.com/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-proposed-demands.html
This is a link to 'The Idiot Papers'. The Unabomber Manifesto made more sense. Try studying a real science sometime and see how well your hairbrained ideas fly in that community.
Your whole movement needs to be scrapped. Why not protest the fact that your cause is = to communism. and if you haven't heard yet, Communism is what's going on in North Korea... yeah its lame.
Actually North Korea is a hereditary dictatorship, their latest Constitution (2009) rejects the founding ideology of Communism. So your comment needs to be scrapped.
Please. You may argue that true Marxism hasn't been tried yet. But the truth is that is has been tried repeatedly, and due to the fact that it is fundamentally impossible to implement correctly, it has failed repeatedly.
Socialism, on the other hand, works and does so without killing incentive.
Moron #9. (#1 in our hearts, though!) The rest of this post is for the normal people. This is the ignorance we must face and defeat if this country is to remain great and survive. Range time and good ammo supply, my friends!
Moron #8. Yea, they rejected the founding principles of communism for some brutally WORSE ones of their own. Are you friggin for real? Wake up, dummy!
First of all, genius, we do NOT live in a democracy, especially the 'purest form', as you put it. Secondly, your 'proposal(s) describe all human activity as it occurs naturally- every day as all humans live their lives. How old are you? 10?
How about a single (okay, two-part) demand: Stop the looting. Start prosecuting.
It gets wall street where they live, under the prospect of doing the perp walk down to the federal courts. Even Bernie madoff is in a medium-security federal penetentialry in Butler, NC.
we would do so much better were existing laws enforced.
Would you please give us all an example of any law that has been broken, other than by the vagrant 'protesters'? I'll hold off making you Moron #15 pending an intelligent response.
There is a sound bite "We are the 99%". If you try to form a movement around a sound bite, all you will have is a really good sound bite. A solid platform of objectives is absolutely necessary. Ron Paul's popularity on the Right is because people are tired of the FOX NEWS sound bite culture.
Blah, blah, blah. Should be gerbilburger.
Actually we don't so much suck at making sound bites. We just suck at getting behind sound bites because we're cynical.
Why do we need sound bites?
You are all too uninformed and/or unintelligent to be cynical yet.
See the movie "forest Gump" and watch the part where the hippies beat up their girlfriends and say "bull shit " a lot. That is how Americans view this movement. Do you guys beat your girlfriends? Work like Steve Jobs and you may get somewhere in life. Otherwise they will throw you in the category with the forest gump vietnam protesters..IE Bozo the clowns
Oh, so Forrest Gump was a documentary?
What a moron.
YEA! You just made Moron #14
That's right, bumper sticker sound bites. The only way liberals can state their side of the issue without sounding like a lunatic. Toe the Party line and do not use more than one sentence to articulate your point.
You liberals suck at this because your ideas are illogical and economically silly. This is not an editing or lack of focus issue.
The OWS movement isn't about liberal vs conservative. Its about realizing that the old R vs D game is just something we're being distracted with while our wallet is stolen. Calling the OWS crowd a bunch of "Liberals" just lets us all know that you identify yourself as a "conservative".
Now that introductions are out of the way, please realize that OWS is neither a Democrat or Republican movement. If you can get that fact through your thick skull, I think you may be able to have a decent conversation here.
Do you personally produce a good or service that anyone would pay you for? THAT is the 'game' as you put it. Start using your brain.
Yes, I do produce a service. I'm a PC repair man. Self-taught. I use my brain constantly. Its my job.
As far as defining the "game", how about this for a definition:
The means by which the American people are constantly distracted by the back and forth of partisan politics while our rights and our money are slowly eaten away. Its a spectator sport. Who's scandal is it this week? Its all just designed to keep us from noticing that everything we have is being taken away, piece by piece, while we choose sides as to which party is going to lie to us next. Thats the game.
Now you start using YOUR brain.
He'd have to HAVE a brain in the first place.
You are right about the list, but not about the problem. See my post at the top explaining why. I'd like to hear your opinion.
I will help with the problem.. You guys are like animals caged up at the Zoo. You haven't figured out that the who zoo wasn't designed for your comfort. Most of you if you were animals in a Zoo wouldn't even be self aware.
That is the Truth. You are all childish fools w/out any education. Especially History.
Dear friends: this is an example of a troll. I am not a moderator of this site and do not represent anyone in charge. That said, I highly recommend not engaging and moving on.
You make no sense. As usual, I'm sure. Avoid the light of truth like a cockroach.
Take care of yourselves. It is the only way to have pure freedom.
Schools don't teach history anymore.
Not only don't they teach history but they don't teach how you make it in the real world. And no I am not a troll just don't agree on how our educational system fills your brain with liberal mush.
The author here does not speak for all liberals. Besides I'm not sure what it means to be liberal/conservative anymore. Reagan was conservative and was in power when the republican party was still partially respected but look what they've turned into now. I only vote left because of the warmongering on right. I no longer see a line between conservative/liberal. It has become blurred.
Totally agree. I would like to see a public denouncement of any reference to this being a "left wing tea-party." Left vs right, conservative vs. liberal is dividing language, and i am under the impression that this movement transcends such ideas in that it represents the 99%.
I think the demands should be focused on lobbying and campaign contributions to those that are supposed to represent us, and on certain inequities that corporations have imposed on us through monopolies that are too big to fail. Especially the cell phone companies
The problem with demands is given in number 1 below. Congressmen will love to water down this movement in committees and processes.
Many people have expressed their opinion about the way forward in this movement.
There are 3 common flaws in the proposals 1)"demands" have to be approved within the existing political structure, 2)physical theft or violence would require interference from the government, 3)current political entities would absorb this movement, when the feeling in the air is that something absolutely new is required.
Here is my proposal: create a new national capitol. Only that move will be seen as satisfying when we look back on these events in the decades to come.
But how can this small movement break free from the current oligarchy that controls us? We are doctors, lawyers, and farmers just the same as our founding fathers. Yet, the principles they created have been distorted to serve the oligarchy. These principles should be renewed.
In creating a new and better seat of government, we have the most powerful tool ever created - the internet.
I suggest Kansas City, Kansas as a location for this new seat of government. A new and faster internet is being created there. An open and more benign canvas exists at this site, without the stifling history and "baggage" found on either coast.
We don't need to hate "them", we'll just focus on creating a better "us". The energy to do this, exists right now in New York.
CarryTheGrips
You are a seditious freak. The ONLY resemblance to any kind of movement is to a bowel movement. Could you even recite the 'Pledge of Allegiance'? Let alone, understand its meaning?
Here here!
Holy Cow! Moron #12. This is what 'passes' for critical thinking.
99%..... Try .000099%
Come one guys.. its really time to go back home to mom and dad's house. They are the ones paying your bills.
Taxpayers are paying their bills too.
Are you a drone? Can you not see what is happening in this country? Go back to your corporate zombie box.
Congratulations! You are Moron #13.
You are a pompous cheerleader for everything that's gone wrong with America.
Can't, sorry. My Mom and Dad are abusive and don't speak to me. I'm the only one paying my bills, and I'm failing at it because I haven't had any opportunities to succeed. I am one of the 99%.
Talkingwolf; If you can't succeed than you need other ideas or be more creative in your thinking. America is the land of opportunity and I am an example of it. You can start a business and either make a go of it or let it go under it's your choice.
Did you ever think that you are failing because of YOU? No, probably not.
I am a single mother (through divorce..not getting knocked up), work 50 hours a week, have 3 years of college under my belt (most of which I paid for and have loans for the rest), get absolutely NO government assistance at all, and love every second of my life...other than running into close-minded, angry bigots like you. How about, since I have a job, you get an education in what is really going on in this country?
See, this is why I hate conservatives. They are extremely hostile to anyone who doesn't agree with them, and they make wild assumptions that all liberals don't work and live on welfare. If you disagree with someone, don't be a fucking dick about it.
I'm not a conservative or a liberal or a centrist (I detest ideologically driven politics), but I must say, this post of yours is extremely hypocritical. So, YOU "hate conservatives" because THEY are extremely hostile to anyone who doesn't agree with them? You go on to say "don't be a fucking dick". Wow. This is the most blatant example of the psychological phenomenon of projection since Hitler complained that Winston Churchill was "running around Europe setting things on fire". When you point a finger at someone else you point three back at yourself. LOL!
I would consider myself on the conservative end of the political spectrum, but I believe this movement captures my general dissatisfaction with our system. I feel unheard because I can't afford to grease any politician's palms. I just want an end to blatant corporate corruption in MY representative government.
I hope you find a way to express you distaste with the current money-run system. If you don't like protesting, there are many other things you can do to support this movement in any way you would like. Petitions, educating the public about the facts, fundraising for education, volunteering in the name of the 99% whose chances at the american dream are dwindling to nothing... Thank you for your very just and respectful post!
What are you? 13 years old? I'd make you Moron #14, but I don't like picking on children.
Thank you for saying this -- I have believed the same for a long time now. Let's not pigeon-hole ourselves behind one simplistic, myopic stereotype of outdated dogma. The complexity of the times require complexity in responses. All of us, repubs, dems, tea-partyers, are AMERICANS, with the same dreams and hopes for our country. Rigorous debate can be followed by acts of great solidarity (aka, sisterhood and brotherhood).
"All of us, repubs, dems, tea-partyers, are AMERICANS, with the same dreams and hopes for our country."
Clearly these groups do not have the same dreams and hopes for our country.
"Rigorous debate can be followed by acts of great solidarity..."
Assuming the debate concludes with agreement, which I have no reason thus far to believe would happen.
Nonsense! Liberal/Socialist/Progressives have a perverted sense of this great country and its founding. Did you not listen to their leader BHO when he vowed to "fundamentally change" it? They are the enemy of this country, and make NO mistake about it!
The left and the right are just illussions. They both work for the richest people not jsut in America, but the world. explain to me how two parties can possibly represent this melting pot expesially when the melting is only begining.
Then vote for Ron Paul. He's against the wars and will bring all the troops home. K Thanks!
Ron Paul can say anything he wants, he knows he'll never get elected.
Well! That may be true if everyone thought like you do. Be positive and have faith that the system is still actually working to where we can get the genuine article in the oval office.
As opposed to your golden boy Obummer, who got elected and proceeded to do two things: jack and squat? Yeah, such an improvement there.
One-Note-Charleys, you simple minded RP supporters.
Ron Paul is a Republican conservative and his platform starts with, "bring the troops home and stop these illegal wars. Quit reading Time, they tell you liberal lies.
agreed
Moron #11
Let me spell it out for you because you probably skipped class to go to some protest when they were going over Liberalism vs. Conservatism. Liberals believe that big government (and spending money we don't have) is the answer to our problems both socially and economically. Conservatives believe in smaller government and more personal responsibility. It really is just about as simple as that. As for the war mongering, you must've missed that as well. If you look at the Iraq war, all the libs were saying the same thing Bush said. Saddam must be stopped. Hillary Clinton, Harry Reid, John Kerry... they were all in agreement until it became politically en vogue to run Bush under the bus. Talk about hypocrites! You should wake up and smell the coffee.
Why are you trying so fiercely to categorize this movement at all? There are many ways to engage in democratic participation outside of the current political system. You are a witness and you are welcome.
Why are you afraid to be catagorized? Is it that it will be easier to see all of you morons for what you truly are? Well, morons!
Whoever said that this movement has anything to do with politics? It has absolutely nothing to do with left, right, conservative or liberals. This is about people who are fed up with a system that has subjugated the public for far too long. I'm sick of it. Corporate greed caused a major financial crisis and no one was held accountable on Wall St. In fact, they were bailed out!! This movement is about taking our country back from the corporations that have stolen the American dream from the 99%.
Democrats (namely C. Dodd and B. Frank, to name 2) caused the crisis by extorting banks to make bad loans to unqualified recipients. Learn history before you make a bigger fool of yourself.
Of course this has to do with politics. It would naive to think otherwise. Corporate greed did not cause the financial crisis. This is why this movement is wrongheaded. Wall St.is vilified because they take advantage of the fact that they have access to our politicians in Washington. We can agree that that is a big problem. Problem I have with the movement is you are going after the wrong people. THe marches should be on Washington, not Wall St. This financial crisis was caused by congressional actions that took place over the last 30 years or so, going back to the 70s. The congress mandated that Fannie and Freddie provide low interest loans to people regardless of their credit ratings or ability to repay those loans. No doc financing was routine and that can only happen for so long before those bad loans defaulted. Congressional manipulation of the housing market caused the bubble in the first place. Of course we need to regulate business to a degree, but punitive measures placed on the very sector of the population you are counting on for jobs is counter productive. I think the solution is to repudiate 2500 page bills that get passed with no one reading them before we vilify the sector of the economy we need the most (the private sector).
Of course it's a political movement, but not in the traditional two party sense that america is used to: i.e. conservative vs. liberal. This movement is about not being heard by our representative government which apparently is more beholden to the corporations that feed them.
I don't believe anyone here is trying to destroy businesses from making profits.
Wrong! The left HATES profit.
I am the left and I have zero problem with profit. However, I do have a problem with profit at the cost of human life. Cheaper ingredients in our products and ways to make said products is leading to cancer, child diabetes, jobs being shipped overseas, and starvation worldwide. There is a huge difference between profit and greed, and valuing your house, car, and private jet over other human beings is what I find revolting. It is sad that you are letting your anger run everything you are, and cut you off from caring about your fellow citizens. Jesus would not have wanted it this way and I try with everything I am to live in a just way. I work, raise my son, and care deeply for everyone. I think perhaps you should ask yourself why you feel the need to go online and spread hateful statements. I don't agree with this one individual's demands at all yet we must separate business from government. The government should be run like a business, not BY businesses. It will only work if government is run for the people. Take care Casper, and I do hope you respond to this since you haven't responded much to other replies...
So very true.
you need a flashy front man like Chastity Bono. He/She will match your confused ideologies.
i agree!
If you want public support to continue to grow we had better shape a living wage platform that the public can sink their teeth in. If generalized statements continue to be the organizing principal of this action then the public won't continue to lend their trust. They have been burned so many times trusting the campaign rhetoric of the democratic party that they will be very careful to research this actions real platform.
Here's a dissecting the OWS List of Demands (No doubt this movement was triggered and is funded by the Global elite - http://www.infowars.com/dissecting-the-ows-list-of-demands/
Paranoid schizophrenia dosen't look good on you.
The majority of support you have is young kids who haven't a clue about what they're even there for and that list of demands only shows that this is nothing but a liberals wet dream of utopia.
KEEP UP THE FIGHT COMRADES!!
I agree. I'd like to see how they plan to pay for all of these "free" services from the government. Also, if everyone had a college education, a college degree's value would plummet, causing a higher demand for Masters, PhD's, etc. Such a myopic list of demands.
I'd like to add a few more:
Make the Middle East stop fighting.
Everyone gets a helicopter that runs on children's laughter.
Gummy bears are free.
Nobody judges anyone for having dumb ideas or lists of demands. (cough)
So you're saying that not everyone deserves a college education if they want it?
I guess only the ones who can afford 50k a year should be educated. I understand now. sorry.
yes - exactly! not everyone deserves a college education just because they want it. that is the smartest statement i've seen on this page! where in the world did you learn that we DESERVE things just because we want them? that is the essence of liberal nonsense
If knowledge is power, then higher education would be used by others to oppress those who simply could not afford it; they will not be free in the sense that "all men are created equal." There would not be equal opportunity for all.
The highly educated have often been an oppressor because they know the system and how to manipulate it.
I understand that not everyone is equal, and I cannot foresee the ability to pay everyone's tuition. Tuition and fees are largely dependent on the cost of living and the professors salaries.
This should not be a demand.
"The highly educated have often been an oppressor because they know the system and how to manipulate it..."
Take formal education out of the equation and you still have the same problem: someone who is born smarter or healthier will always be in a position to oppress others. Burn all the books and burn all the money, but this inequality will never change.
Not to mention the fact that college educated citizens will get jobs with better wages, and will in turn pay back more in federal income tax. It's an investment, not a handout.
Why would a student even bother graduating if college were free?
Learning is free.
So why don't you ever learn anything?
hahaha.. i personally love the helicopter idea. I think we should push for government funding on that.
hhahahahahahahahahahaha..I demand a new saddle for my Unicorn
Wait. What? Did you honestly just make an argument that we need people to be stupid so that the marginally smart can look smarter?
I Demand a Lifetime supply of Chocolate!
I Demand the whole world be my personal slave – oh right, they’ve already got that in there.
My bad, Peace Out!
everyone should have their own Fender Stratocaster.......free of charge
Hey! What am I gonna do with an electric guitar if I don't have an amp too!
FREE AMPS FOR EVERYONE!
"They have been burned so many times..."
Agreed. As such, I'd like to see the motivations behind each demand spelled out.
Have you heard what Limbaugh is saying about your list? You are the laughing stock of much of America. "Living wage, regardless of employment"..... Why would anyone work.....or go to school for that matter? I can't believe you have thought some of these demands through.
I am addressing you templewind since you seem like one of the only sane people on this thread.I heard this list today on Michael Medved. I had to log in to see if it was a gag or for real. I'm still not sure. If you want to take on the Fed, that issues money (interest free) to all the big banks and causes a debasement of the currency, which makes everyone poorer and enriches a few bank executives, simply support Ron Paul. I have been fighting this fight in a rational way for years. All this utopian nonsense is making this movement a laughingstock as you rightly point out. Maybe this is simply an asylum for people who were dropped on their heads as babies. Am I wrong?
It's time to start thinking utopian. Demanding less isn't working. AAnd if you think Ron Paul is any different than the Republicrats, I've got some swamp land in Florida you might be interested in.
Do you believe that a utopia is possible but that someone else is keeping it from you? Do you understand how easy it is to manipulate someone who believes that?
Twas one person my good sir, not the entire group.
It does sound like a crazy idea, I agree, but I actually think it would iron out in time. I mean, have you tried sitting at home doing nothing for a sustained amount of time? It sucks. People want to be productive contributing citizens by nature and how many of us are forced into crappy jobs just because they were the only ones we could get? What would people do if they didn't have to worry about having their basic needs met? I think most of us would be much more creative and productive in the long run. No one likes being forced into doing something just for money. So who would clean the bathrooms? How does it work at home? Do you get paid to do it at home? No, you do it because you feel responsible. Is it so unrealistic to imagine that people could feel responsible for their communities? Are we really all just lazy sots?
"[H]ave you tried sitting at home doing nothing for a sustained amount of time?"
"What would people do if they didn't have to worry about having their basic needs met?"
If someone is sitting around doing nothing, it would seem that their basic needs are being met. Therefore, people would sit around doing nothing if their basic needs were met.
"I think most of us would be much more creative and productive in the long run. "
Creative and productive with what? You would only have your basic needs met. Will the next set of demands include a minimum number of craft paints and brushes for all?
Hurry let's change all the power from big oil and nuclear to ....unicorn farts and fairy dust...ROFLMAO...Thank God you have given us your insight...priceless!!
I think your recommendation should go to the top of the List of Demands - it sets the stage for those that follow. I really did laugh out loud.
guntotinsquaw -
Well said!! These are anarchistic demands from a group of adolescents that have no real world experience. Some of the demands conflict with each other, and some would have catastrophic results.
This is an excellent example of the "college students know everything" crowd, those who haven't; held a job, worked their way up to a good job, paid taxes (to understand what it feels like), had to decide which bills to pay and which to postpone, putting someone else before yourself (spouse, child, etc.), and put in a hard day at work and then have a series of responsibilities to take care of in the evening.
This is akin to a virgin with no experience in romance being a couselor for couples having issues; know-nothing arrogance that will do an incredible amount of harm and possibly devistation.
IMHO, toemoss
These "college students" as you say don't even have the oppertunity to move up through a job, or a company- unless its mcdonalds or the like. Seasoned workers that are supposed to be retiring aren't, they can't, aged persons are losing their jobs promoting them to search for others. Pretend you are head of a well-to-do business. Will you hire the grad student fresh out of school with no expirance, or joe schmo that also has a degree who worked in the feild for 25 yrs and just got canned because his business bombed? The point is, there are no jobs out there. Degree or no degree. And some people, like myself, have been looking and looking without sucess and won't ever be able to find jobs in the areas we live as our parents did. I'm so glad all you "old people" are living so cushy while I'm applying for foodstamps, just because the economy was better when you were a "college kid" I'm in debt up to the celing of my shitty apartment, starving, and oh yeah I didn't have the 10k to pay for my last semester of college so I don't even have a degree yet. I'm a hardworking intelligent person wanting to start my life, pushing 30, and the 'fact' is I can't. Not anytime soon. Things need to change in america, that's the point of the occupations. Just remember when all you "old people" are in nursing homes sucking up your social security, we won't be able to run this shit hole because we'll all be homeless. There are no set demands for anyone, but everyone all agrees that america isn't working, and needs reform, change. We voted in obama for that reason and he hasn't delivered yet, at least not in my area.
I'm young. I have a college degree that mommy and daddy didn't pay for. I worked more than 40 hours per week all through college. I have a great job that pays very well. Stop blaming successful people for your inability to hack it in this world because you suck at life. Do us tax payers a favor and either suck it up, or lock yourself in your crappy apt and nibble on the barrel of gun so we don't have to pay for your food stamps!
Very well said. Us old people worked at jobs that young people think are beneath them. We had pride in ourselves and did whatever it took to earn our way. I hear how poor people suffer. There are no poor people in this country. Most so called victims don't know the meaning of the poor. These people are of a welfare mentality.
Potential healthcare costs keep employers from hiring the seasoned veteran in favor of a slow witted, inexperienced candidate.
May I suggest using your legs and going to those states that have very low unemployment to look for work. They might not be places you want to settle in or the kind of work you would like, but they might just get you out of the doldrums. Even in this job climate there are good paying jobs that are going begging. As far as "soaking up my Social Security", I paid dearly for it my entire working life and my governments (federal - state - local) have squandered it on giveaway programs for generational do nothings. Had I been able to invest it myself I'd be a multimillionaire by now.
What jobs, where, by which companies?
I hear this LIE spouted every day. Come up with some names.
And well said by you as well!
The Occupy Wall Street Gnomes Plan
collect underpants
???
Riches for everyone
LOL!!! Very nice. This is what happens when people make their "demands" while high.
A Living Wage Platform regardless of employment is DOA unless we go Communist, and then it will be a barely living wage for everyone. The wage one receives has to be related to what that person is worth in terms of marginal contribution to productivity of a marketable product.
Too many in this "movement" are the product of a failed education system and a permissive society so it's no surprise that they fail to understand even basic economics. Yes, we need a minimum wage and yes, we need to restructure the tax code, but what is considered "rich" is not that much money. Already half of all households pay no income tax and over 83% is paid by household incomes over $67,000, which is hardly rich in most of the country. Virtually any household with two wage earners with college degrees or public safety jobs or any kind of management jobs fall in the "rich" category.
I'm sorry but the things you are demanding will only make us ALL poorer. Is the goal to turn the US into a third world country?
Here is the real problem: the massive "wealth redistribution" that has gone on for the last 30 years. The top 1% now control over 42% of our entire nation's wealth and the top 10% now control over 70% of our entire nations wealth. The bottom 50% controls a meager less than 2% of our entire nation's wealth. How did this happen?
The middle class spends their wealth on goods/services and the corporations have redistributed their wealth by paying their profits all out to the executives and shareholders. Middle class wages have stagnated for 30 years while executive wages have gone up 256% in since 1980. Even last year executive compensation went up another 11%. The top 1% now controls over 42% of the entire nation's wealth. We have not seen numbers like this since the great depression. The top 10% controls 70% of the entire nation's wealth. All of our nation's wealth has been redistributed into the hands of the few.
The middle class was roped into replacing wages with easy credit. So instead of paying people living wages, corporations fooled us into thinking we were doing well and could afford things by giving us easy credit instead of wages. Instead of having wages to buy t.v.'s, furniture, etc. we were given easy loans. So the middle class became a debtor class. There used to be a tax disincentive to paying out all of corporate profits at the top because in the 1950's income was taxed at 90% over a certain amount money and now that tax disincentive has disappeared. In 1950's the highest marginal tax rate was 90%. In 1960-1970's it was 70%. In 1980's it dropped to 49%. In 1990's dropped to 39%. Under George Bush it dropped to a mere 36%. We have had over 30 years of massive tax cuts for the wealthy.
There is now no tax disincentive to paying out all of the corporate wealth at the top. And there is no employee bargaining power because now less than 12% of all of our jobs are unionized. Corporate profits are at an all time high, healthcare company profits are at an all time high, and oil profits are at an all time high. We don't have a healthcare crisis we have a healthcare company profit-taking crisis that no politician will doing anything about. Healthcare and oil companies have enjoyed a decade of record profits while we have had a decade of massive premiums for little coverage and a decade of outrageous gas prices.
The problems are: 1) deregulation of the banks by the Republican-controlled congress in 1999; 2) hedge funds are exempt from regulation; 3) tax system no longer has a disincentive against paying outrageous executive salaries (highest marginal tax rate has dropped from 90% to 36%); 4) commodities market is exempt from regulation (Republican-controlled Congress exempted it in the Commodities Future Modernization act of 2000); 5) the Supreme Court has ruled that corporations can spend unlimited funds in campaign elections (thus politicians on both sides favor the wealthy/corporations) and 6) the rise of corporate/billionaire propaganda media "news." Because of the need to raise massive sums in politics today, we no longer have a party that represents the people. The Democrats have to chase the corporate and big money donors too.
What can we do about this: 1) re-instate Glass-Steagall Act regulating the banks; 2) regulate hedge funds and the commodities market (because the commodities market is not regulated speculation has caused prices for commodities to go through the roof); 3) get rid of the money in politics (have federally funded elections with clear limits on spending and no outside groups allowed to have ads); 4) get rid of 1980's laws stating that corporations' only duty is to maximize shareholder profits; and 5) regulate "news" channels and newspapers (no more "slanted opinion news" masquerading as hard news) and reinstitute the fairness doctrine across all news outlets to ensure that both sides get equal time.
Corporations should have duties to society and to their workers too. They should have to balance their duties to maximize shareholder profits against their reinstated duties to their employees and to society. The laws saying that corporations' only duty is to maximize shareholder profits have led to the destruction of long-term business plans and care for their workers and have created short-term profit monsters at the expense of workers and society.
For some time now we have been legalizing and institutionalizing the corruption of democracy in this country. As long as this process resulted in most people’s boats rising-people ignored it. But at present we have experienced a precipitous drop and have witnessed the inability of government to do anything about it. We are still headed on a course for things to get worse. It would be nice to roll back all those laws and practices of the past 50 years that got us into this mess but how would that realistically happen? Basically we have traded the Kings and monarchs of year’s yore for the harder-to-identify powers that actually pull the strings in our society. And unlike our Founding Fathers, I don’t think that modern day Americans have the vision or stomach for a Revolution-we have a culture of consumerism; too many addictions to keep us distracted. And it is unlikely that the 1% and the 99% will come together unless we create/identify some serious external threat; the rhetoric alone should be proof enough. The most likely outcome of all is that part of the 99% will be placated and things will just continue to decline, only more gradually. So I am in solidarity with the occupy wallstreet protestors- I just hope some focus develops. Meanwhile, what’s a member of the precariat to do? --just continue trying to get by in these precarious times; work to become more self sufficient, take comfort in relationships rather than things.
Well said-in your opinion is the occupy wall street movement worth supporting? I wanted to support it but after reading the list of demands abd the many posts here I am uncertain-in Chicago
rmmo, that was brilliant. Don't forget that the New Republicans are correcting what the Old Republicans have done by voting down the old. We will clean this mess up. The current Democrats are hopeless but they will be replaced also, after we get a good GOP starting with Ron Paul.
I'm saving your whole post, you will see parts of it throughout the web from today forward. Thank you for putting it so succinctly. You're "What can we do about this:" is exactly right.
I used to be a Republican, but because of these problems I turned to the Democratic party. Now I know that neither party represents the people and the Supreme Court Citizens United decision allowing unlimited election spending by the wealthy and big business has made sure that the people's interests will never be represented.
Blanca, it turns out wage doesn't have that much to do with productivity, at least not when it comes to mental productivity - check out Dan Pink www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html. I don't think we would have to go communist for something like this to happen. It would just mean wallstreet execs would have to give up their bonus' for a few years.
Blanca your putting out nothing but republican talking points.
So you're a liar as well as a whiner now.
I see. So you're saying this is all the democratic party's fault.
Why no mention of the republican party? Your suggestions can no longer be taken seriously, because you tainted them with "rhetoric" by finger pointing. You can't blame this on one party or another. Its too deep for that. BOTH parties have played their part, and BOTH parties carry equal blame.
Some of the suggestions you put forth are actually feasible. While others are simply outlandish and unrealistic. Like wanting to forgive "all 65 trillion dollars". Do you really believe that is all that is owed after decades of unfunded liabilities? The actual figure is over $130trillion. More than double that which you indicated. And the only way to get out from under that massive debt, is to simply write down ALL "domestic debt". Leaving ONLY foreign debt. Which you CANNOT write down as a simple matter of fairness to the nations that we owe. Unless you want the world to erupt in war against you.
The "free" college education is another technical impossibility. How do you propose to pay the scholars you want to provide a sufficient level of curriculum? Taxes? Perhaps you should outline how this non-partisan new system of taxation would work. At least then it might seem at least half-serious.
To outlaw credit reporting agencies, you would first need to abolish credit entirely. Otherwise, you have no way of monitoring "credit worthiness" based upon a history of borrowing.
If you really want to get serious about healthcare costs, you can start by letting Medicare and Medicaid negotiate prescription drug prices in line with the VA. That's 80% of the problem with healthcare right there.
The infrastructure spending is an achievable goal. But the ecological spending far exceeds what nature can do for itself by simply employing "proper" regulatory measures. "Some" investment is certainly warranted though. But it would simply be a better option to add most of those funds into the infrastructure projects. For which "at least" $2trillion is needed.
Open borders invites national security risks. Citizenship is a requirement in most civilised nations. Reform is certainly needed, but "open borders" simply goes way too far.
A national minimum wage is definitely achievable, although your figure of $20/hr is negotiable. I raised a family of 6 on an average wage of $15/hr, for much of the past 30 years. And that was mostly within a single household income. My wife held various jobs in the $8-9hr range, and things were MUCH easier during those times. Our kids worked hard in school, and 2 ended up in the military, one working in the construction field (with me), and our daughter married a responsible young man who cares deeply for her and my granddaughter, and provides for them quite nicely on his lone $17.50/hr factory wage.
The election and equal rights matters, I certainly have no issue with. They need to be addressed honestly and openly. And the ideologies that surround them need to be checked at the door before that discussion can begin.
Trade is another area causing big problems. "Free trade" is a farce. It was a farce when NAFTA was implemented, and its STILL a farce with these new agreements making their way through congress. Dump the free trade fantasy, and implement "fair trade" instead. My rate is your rate. I pay the same to sell my goods in your country, as you do to sell your goods in mine. Simple as that. With penalties and sanctions imposed for any offense of currency manipulation to tilt the equality scale. I catch you manipulating your currency, I suspend your shipments into my country until you rectify the discrepancy, and suspend shipping to your country.
If you REALLY want this to be taken seriously, and gain tremendous support by consensus, then there only needs to be ONE objective:
Sever EVERY connection between Wall Street and Washington. Lobbyists, campaign donations, congressional market activity, EVERYTHING.
Achieve that, and you begin the domino effect of toppling failed policy built upon that systemic problem. To avoid preferential policy decisions, you need to remove any incentive that goes against the general welfare of the majority populous.
Get Wall Streets money out of Washington by constitutional measure, and you can finally sit down and seriously discuss HOW to go about fixing the system, in accordance with what is best for country, its economic health, and the well being of its people.
Clinton put "free trade" in place. Ron Paul is the only credible candidate trying to bring the Fed under control.
That is exactly right, audit the Fed, bring the troops home and stop these illegal wars, free Larkin, balance the budget and don't spend money we don't have. Stop Foreign Aid to our enemies, Protect our boarders.
Well said.
I think there are way too many demands, many of which seem utterly irresponsible such as, 'debt forgiveness on the entire planet', and outlaw all credit reporting agencies. Those two demands take credibility away from the statement as a whole, and make it sound like a 1st grade story on, "what I would do if I was president of the world'.
agreed. This is 1st - 2nd grade level thought process
Alright - we'll reduce our demands to one. Free chocolate milk at recess.
AND WE'RE NOT BACKING DOWN FROM THAT ONE PAL!
Nicely put! If I were president of the world, I would plant magical money trees, fertilized by unicorn poo that would grow organic hemp-money backed by happiness and good will! YAY!!!
One objective. Modus Operandi. One thing, that would solve every thing. Mundus vult decipi. World Peace. Carpe diem.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/50500650/yourtopia-your%20official%20final%20beginning.pdf
Alen0 What you have stated is more in line with the occupy worldwide movement. The list of demands are pointed out to be one random persons idea and have been posted to express they are not a condoned expression of the general group. My opinion as an individual is that money was once just a tool for trade but now we trade for money. We are exploiting everything to the point of destruction just to have more access to money. We push each other down in order to get ahead in the spirit of competition. This is fine if you don't really care about anything except how how you measure yourself against others but I do and so do many of those people in the occupations. This is a movement of moral fibre and respect. It has no demands but begs a question to anyone and everyone. I don't know how to express this question but if you honestly listen to your feelings around how you would truly like to live you will know in your heart what that question is. This occupation is more than a movement it is inevitability .
Let's follow the logic: 1) A minimum wage is good. 2) A higher minimum wage is better. 3) An even higher minimum wage is even better yet. Therefore, why are we not demanding that we pay everyone at least $1,000,000 per year?? All problems solved! Perpetual nirvana is here!! Whew, that was hard, I need to lie down. And, because I make so much money now, I can afford to pay someone to bring me a cold drink whenever I want! Wait, I have to pay them how much?!? D'oh!!
Yes 1M$ for every worker. Tell Bernanke and he will happily print it for you. Then a coke will be worth 100$.
Voters are neither democratic nor republican. Voters vote their pocket book and have continually switched their voting patterns as a whole accordingly. All I meant was when the elected republicans screw up the economy through corrupt cronyism and war the public by vast majorities are willing to be seduced by democratic party lies.
Until 2010 no one could tell the difference between a GOP and Dem. We are changing the GOP and bringing it to what the public wants. The public is learning through the internet what was done wrong and new candidates with nation building philosophies are being elected in the GOP.
Nation building by Republicans is deficit spending, which is financially irresponsible. Nation Building by Democrats is tax increases, which is financially responsible, but unpopular. For all the hark about wanting to run the government like a business, a REAL business would try to raise its revenues to meet growing expenses. It's just common sense. Only reason Republicans say no is they want the Democrats to do it and take the blame and have the best of both worlds.
Obviously you could go the other route and slash expenses to all hell...but then you're not building a nation, just the unemployment line.
In short, simple economic terms: there's no such thing as a free lunch. You want a better country, you'd best be prepared to pay for it somehow, either in higher taxes or fewer services.
However, voters ARE aware of right and wrong, which transcends party lines. If they only voted with their wallets, it would be way too easy for the majority to take control and vote to take all the money from the rich and give it to the poor, which is immoral. Wait, that sounds familiar...
Tom, you speak truth. What they also need is a spokesperson. Once a main goal, an a speaker of that main goal is established, it will be easier for people to agree, or disagree upon demands. Right now, there are so many points to this whole thing that nobody on the outside of the protest is able to decide whether or not they can be fully satisfied with their decisions of support.
Also, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too unrealistic. Not a single one has any attachment to the real world. Soviet communism has a better chance of working than these demands!
Definitely agree on the "too many" ... there needs to be a focus and list of ways they think they can be accomplished.
A far better list is at: http://rodgermmitchell.wordpress.com/2011/10/12/5163/ Rodger Malcolm Mitchell
A short list of simple talking points is the key to winning. The right-wing HAS to do this because they're drooling morons, and it works pretty well. We have to do it because the average American has the attention span of a housefly and the critical thinking skills of a potted plant.
Brutal but true. A list like this will get the movement nowhere.
exactly. they have know idea how to protest. they will not accomplish anything. if they smart they as for specific demands. 1 stop the war 2 pay back the bayout money
Yeah if you were smart you could actually make sense when you type there buddy
End The FED! Is something that people on the right and left agree is at the root of the problem. Without the FEDERAL RESERVE, the GOV couldn't bailout Wall Street, nor could they de-value your money. As for the Government bailing out the american people debt, I'd rather have that then them bailing out Wall Street, but both perpetuate more GOV, as do these overseas wars.
Get rid of the FED! They cause the most hideous tax, inflation by running the printing presses.
Why not just fix the Fed? How would a country operate without a central bank? Go back and take an economics course.
Have a system based on actual value, our land, our metals. You can't fix stupid but we can fix corrupt.
The Fed was a corrupt from the start when only three 3 congressman voted it into power Xmax eve 1913 when congress was CLOSED... Just one more thing. Which fascist policing department will force ALL these new laws upon the people and how many will go to jail for not obeying? How many lives will YOUR police have to destroy to FORCE these rules on the people?? You are steering us right into the George Orwell 1984 socialist nightmare state. Maybe you should add one more demand. #15 - Gave all the cops black uniforms and machine guns to enforce all these rules.
Read a history book you corporate puppet! Our nation ran just dandy without a central bank.
You're the corporate puppet DorkStar. The Fed is just the latest whipping boy of the GOP, a distraction from the real culprits. If you read history books that weren't written by neo-nazi sympathizing crackpots, you would realize that a central bank is just a non-political entity that sets interest rates, issues currency and regulates the banking industry. Oh yeah, and its run by Zionist lizard-people from planet Zolar.
TARP was paid back. Check your facts
No, they really didn't. They simply pulled the wool over your eyes. The payback for many of them was illusory. They raised the capital to payback the CPP funds by issuing bonds backed by the FDIC, which allowed them to subvert the requirements of the CPP program. However, the federal gov't, i.e. the taxpayers, are still on the hook if they can't make good on those bonds. Check your facts before telling someone else to check their facts.
LOL no. All of TARP (ex-GM and Chrysler) was paid back and the US taxpayer earned $20 billion on top of principal. FDIC does not back bonds, which is irrelevant to this discussion anyways. The bulge-bracket banks paid the TARP funds back by issuing common stock.
Yes, it was paid back. No, it was not a good idea to bail out the banks without some severe restrictions on what they could do with the money, and putting regulations in place so it can't happen again.
And the source of the payback was primarily issuing stock where the risk falls on whoever bought it. You know, those people you hate because they are willing to risk their own assets to create the jobs and have the nerve to expect some kind of return on it if it succeeds and will eat the looses of it fails.
agreed
Moron #15
"US Taxpayer earned $20 Billion"? How is this returned to the US taxpayers, shape or form would be acceptable answers.
the US TREASURY is the fact source. do you not trust the government?
And the US TREASURY is not the GOVERNMENT? IF not who are they?
Hell no!
And Hell is where you belong, sir.
Really? The government could not devalue your money without the Fed? One of the main purpose of the Fed is to keep the printing press out of government hands. The fed is a semi private entity, and without it, the government would be able to print money at will to meet obligations....
That's right. When Congress is in control of the money (as is constitutional), and they pull something stupid, at least we can vote them out, or even IMPEACH them. We have absolutely NO control over the FED. We MUST return to a precious-metal based dollar, or it ends up like Zimbabwe, where you can buy a $1000 bill with a hamburger.
Sadly, right now, we have trouble voting them out. Because 1% buys their representation. 99% are left with the crumbs. The system must be changed to get the money out of politics. If we have publicly funded political system, everyone has a voice. And then, all things are possible.
False. All Governors on the FOMC are appointed by the President of the US and confirmed by Congress. If you don't like a Fed Governor, tell your elected representative.
Let's have a full audit of the FED and see were we stand. Better yet lets request full disclosure of the FED from the Freedom of Information Act.
Like they would listen?
That's not going to do anything. The rallies look like a Greenpeace convention with most of the people scraggily dressed and pointing the finger at the rich. The point you are all missing is a) people will be turned off unless you have a professional looking approach with normal people b) some of the rich have created a ton of jobs with living wage salaries c) Don't look like a bunch of unemployed homeless people when you're standing out there trying to get people to listen to you.
Your message (albeit some of the more crazy ideas I've seen above and floating around by members of your group) are good, but honestly it looks like 75% of the people at your rally are just there because they like to protest and enjoy controversy, but really have no idea what they're talking about.
First and Only Demand: Make Cuban cigars legal. That's easy. Once the government accomplishes that (and my humidor is full) the rest is academic. lol...
in the headnote to this list, it mentioned that this article was created by an individual. that word, individual, in and of itself is the opposite of what this movement preaches.
to me, in my humble opinion, i feel as if some of these demands are both reasonable and feasible. some are obviously ignorant and naive.
for this movement to accomplish concrete change, we do need focus. focus is not having the third google result to the word search 'occupy' lead to this article. this is jibber jabber.
My name is Steven Gonzales, and i live in VA. I say strike all demands and vote for this one simple amendment.
SEPERATION OF CORPORATION AND STATE.
This simple departure will cover the majority of your demands.
Think about how the church at one time dominated governments. And think, for a moment, about how the separation of CHURCH AND STATE alleviated a great deal of corruption. This one demand is what you seek . this one simple demand is the type that can unify the movement, and could actually have a chance at success.
my resolve to the separation would be this. Corporations would be forced to put money into the election fund, which would then be evenly distributed to ALL recognized political parties. NO MORE VOTING ON THE PEOPLE THE CORPORATIONS PICKED. LET AMERICANS VOTE. LET AMERICANS CAST THEIR VOICE.
To get the people on your side, you must first disarm them, by force if necessary! Power to the people!
Break into my home to take my property and violate my Constitutional (and God-given) rights - by force? Will you have your fascist bully boys do it or do you have the balls to be the first one through the front door? Force will be met by force - multiplied, and I will shoot you in the head. Molon labe
What does gun control have to do with ecomomics , you must be one of those bleeding damn Democraps. Have a wonderful life not having the ability to protect your loved ones in a life or death situation.
I think Mr. Bowman is having a little fun.
We'll never get real reform when homicidal teabaggers can threaten everyone with guns.
Gun nuts are holding the nation hostage.
Not for gun nuts you wouldn't be writting crap like that on a site like this. Try some of your hero countries like Russia or China. Lots of liberty there. While you're at it try to find those few thousand freedom fighters whose unarmed asses disappeared one night in Tiananmen Square. Better Teabagger than Red or dead. Strange "Teabagger" implies I'm pitching...so you must be catching.
"While you're at it try to find those few thousand freedom fighters whose unarmed asses disappeared one night in Tiananmen Square"
Many of them disappeared to a far-off town or to personal hidey-holes. Armed resistance would have done nothing except made them target practice for the Chinese military and gotten NO sympathy from the outside world, and they darn well knew it.
So the secret government board that can till you without due process is no danger?
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
When the mob mentality takes over because we run out of resources who would you rather be: the "gun nut" who has an arsony of weapons to use as protection... or the guy that wants to talk things out peacefully with the angry mob on his doorstep. When it comes down to it I will do whatever it takes to protect myself and those I care about.
from that video that's been going around the internet and tv, it looked to me like the homicidal gun nuts were the police, not the tea party guys.
Exactly.
Send all their guns to the Mexican drug lords!
Now now the ATF tried that, and we know how that went....
And as long as their opposition consists of hippies posting angry words on the internet, the chances of reform are "Z":
Zero, Zilch, Zip!
This is terrible. How can we free them? Where are they? Why hasn't the emdia covered this? Shameful.
We are them and they are us. Take responsiblity for what we have become and change or doom yourselves to Socialism. And zee its seems you have issues with cops, they on the most part are responding with equal force that is dealt to them. Idiotic statements like yours shows the example of national decline of respect for our protectors that includes parents, teachers etc. no wonder this is no longer the greatest nation in the world. We reap what we sow!
I'm repeating what I said, remember the black hoods getting caught in their own game wearing police shoes? I do. Now at any rally we will be carrying whistles or loud noisemakers when these lawbreakers try to do damage and blame it on the TP. They will be surrounded until justice is done.
I would think a with a name like spongebob you propably have the same sense of wonderment about your world well wake up. There is a crack head out there just waiting for people like you to be their next victim. Good Luck spongey.
Yea because everyone with a gun is a nutcase. Get a reality check you dolt. Legal gun owners aren't the problem.
Gee, the Tea Party members aren't the ones who keep getting arrested for violating the law, threatening people, breaking things...
No, remember the black hoods getting caught in their own game wearing police shoes? I do. Now at any rally we will be carrying whistles or loud noisemakers when these lawbreakers try to do damage and blame it on the TP. They will be surrounded until justice is done.
Thanks AJ. It seems from this forum that the entire US gets it's political education from a reactionary talk show host(s).
Such 'force' will consist of throwing rocks and Molotovs at the very most. And then the police will come in and haul you off to the nearest prison, where you'll undergo a butt-f*cking marathon from the inmates.
If the British had the equipment and training the cops and military did now, we'd be flying the Union Jack and singing God Save the Queen at rugby games. So don't even start with your revolution fantasies.
Come get them....hurry I'm waiting. You don't mind hollow points do you? Bring your forcey ass on. Be a lot of jobs available afterward but mostly in the Funeral biz. We won't go like the Jews did so better pack your lunch....as if you'd have the ballz. 7.62 full..metal jacket
So ignore the 2nd Amendment? Lord, do you even realize that you're a fascist?!
The more I think about it, this list seems designed to make this movement look foolish. Seems like sabotage. No shit, it's that ridiculous...
Bingo, I think you're onto something there. The whole thing is a complete piece of trash, and Lloyd's responses to people who challenge it are full-on bullshit. And yet, this is the list that got picked up by the media.
That's because there is no list. This is not a movement, it has no goals, demands, purpose or reason for existing. It is simply a temper tantrum on a small but highly publicized scale.
I think there's a 50/50 chance that this was written by some inbred Rethuglican loon as a joke/trolling attempt, and accidentally got posted as something serious.
END THE FED End the genocide in the middle east, and the billions of dollars being bathed in middle eastern blood
This anyone could agree with.
I can buy (until demand #11 institute super inflation) the idea of re instituting tariffs. Raising the minimum wage would be great for the one guy who didn't lose his job but less great for everyone else (a person paid 20 an hour is receiving roughly 3 times current compensation, faced with this, in order to keep profits consistent, companies must either fire employees or raise prices. Due to the lack of foreign competition (because of tarriffs), this will mean that all products would become roughly 3 times more expensive. I hope you like ramen.)
The only way to do this would be for the gov to absorb them all. They tried that, a lot of people got mad.
Why would i work for money when I could not work to get money?
Hello taxes. How are you? I'd like you to radically increase to pay for other peoples college. A lot of them will just party too hard and drop out after 2 years, but no harm done.
You can't flip a switch and change to green energy. It has to be independently financially competitive. Lets face it, coal is cheap and theres still plenty of it. Our Canadian friends to the north have at least as much oil as the middle east in their oil sands. Green tech still has a ways to go before it can compete.
We do need this one, though demand #11's inflation mess would make the trillion worth like maybe a billion.
Forestry (in the united states at least) is already largely sustainable and Chicago worked really hard to reverse that river. The only problem with nuclear power is those spent fuel rods. Fourtunately, the US has ample space to store them. If you don't believe me, you've obviously never driven through the midwest. When it takes you 2 hours cruising at 80 mph to go from small patch of civilization to next small patch of civilization, i think we're ok. Or we do have all that southwestern desert. This had better be a money thing, cause those things are really pretty safe. It took a typhoon and an earthquake to make the one in japan hav a problem. doesn't get much safer than that.
The 15 amendment prohibits the federal government and the states from using a citizen's race, color, or previous status as a slave as a qualification for voting. The 19th Prohibits the federal government and the states from forbidding any citizen to vote due to their sex. ...so
I agree. Nations are lame. They like, try and protects their citizens n stuff. Good thing wars never happen.
I think we are often that independent party. I like the system where we observe ourselves. PS, faud happens with paper ballots too, and the take a lot more time and $.
Oh boy. Where to start. Well, there arent really any books anymore, its all on the computer (there that was easy, now were started!).
So here's how loans work: You got no cash and are hungry and a guy gives you $20 for a pizza. He says you can pay him back later, but you gotta pay him 20 + $1 cause he had plans for that money and he coulda given it to someone else AND YOU AGREE. Hopefully you pay him back and everyone wins. If you don't, then you gotta keep paying him dollars cause you did get your pizza and he wants his money back in return and your taking forever to get back to him while your stuffing your face. If you refuse, he takes your pizza, cause really he paid for it anyway. This is basically how debts work for peeps and for countries as well. If you erase all debt, then that reallllyy isnt fair to the people who gave out the loan.
On top of that, wall street, and the US for that matter, doesn't really have the authority to tell the world: "hey guys, you remember all that cash we owed you, we dont anymore, poof its gone". I mean, how they actually make this happen? Why would countries that have given out a bunch of loans (like china) not just veto this at the security council (of which china is a permanent member)? They want their money back foo!
And even if, by some finical, political, and diplomatic miracle they actually made that happen, have you heard of inflation? Cuase you just injected and additional 65 trillion dollars into the world economy, which by the way, is somewhere between 65-75 trillion in size (that was a wiki fact, not totally reliable i know but its usually close when it comes to financial statistics). So in one stroke you have double the world economy overnight. I don't even want to think about it. If you must, imagine people carrying wheelbarrows of cash to buy bread, using hundreds as TP, really weimar republic germany stuff. in a word: BAD
Well, number 11 would ruin everyone's credit (cause we all ran out on our commitments), so this seems a reasonable step given the world destroying suggestion above.
I'm tired. its yea or nay, not yeah or nay.
Canadian friends? We don't like you and the environmental damage your oil addiction is having on our soil. Like the rest of the world, we hate you (for your "freedoms" - yeah, your freedoms - I'm still rolling). Nonetheless, you'll take it by force when the empire collapses (the one you leave out of your cost accounting - empires are expensive, the beneficiaries are few and they do not pay the cost in $ or in lives).
Dude your* such a h8r!
*actually spelled 'you're'.
Nice to see a cogent response. Keep up the good work!
It's "yeah" to him. As in: "Yeah, man." Solar power to the people.
Great analysis. Taxes can't pay for college, though, because I'll have a living wage regardless of my employment, and the government can't tax me on my guaranteed wages.
Maybe there's a country out east that could spot us the cash for that.
Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.
Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all
if I was not so fond of US of A, I would love nothing more than for you demands to be satisfied and for you to compete with a billion of Chinese for that bowl of rice, guaranteed by a UN approved declaration, no less
Demand number ZERO: disallow voting or making demands by anybody with IQ of a door knob or below
While theoretically it would be possible to institute a restriction on the franchise to people who are net tax payers, I would never support such a thing.
Yet many of the US's problems are rooted in the fact that greedy, envious people gang together to vote to take money away from those who are productive, creative members of society.
It is a puzzle, I admit. The intent of the Constitution, and of creating a representative Republic, was to place a firewall around the consuming evil of pure democracy. Unfortunately, the fire has burst through the wall, and our country is in the midst of a conflagration.
How about: "Build direct democracies based on human rights and sustainable material cultures." DGR
You're putting the cart before the horse.
First, identify the primary problems. Second, reach a consensus on a reasonable solution. Third, garner support for your cause. Fourth, demand change, from those in power to make it. Finally, reinforce your demands through action.
Making demands frivolously or without any ability to "punish" the target of those demands, is an exercise in futility. Take a lesson from the Montgomery Bus Boycott of 1955, or any movie where the bank robber declares he will kill a hostage every 30 minutes, if his demands are not met.
You've touched a nerve in the American society. How you go about effecting the necessary change is paramount. Its not enough to get a million people together to say "We're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore"
As the movement gains strength and enfluence and gets a victory here and there, you can expand on the list of demands.
Congratulations on becoming the single most effective argument against Occupy Wall Street, your list has been used repeatedly in the right-wing echo chamber to malign the movement and is actively scaring away possible supporters.
This list and the right-wing criticisms of it also supersede the "detailed proposed list", which has been evolving under consensus, in Google search results, actually making it harder to find.
If these demands are too great a list for our politicians than we need new smarter STRONGER politicians, and less corporate bloggers working for (paid or brainwashed) the corporate governorship. I'll as a few.
-Outlawing corporate Oligarchy. ---------Out lining what is known as 'Liar Loans' as borderline treason given the known effects on economy and infrastructure....if you don't agree you should really look up the nature of a 'Liar Loan' and their near enslaving. Debt slavery is illegal and liar loans should be known and constitutionally recognized as equivalent.
-Outlawing Media Oligarchy. --------No corporation or financial party may own multiple media outlets in a given state, ending Media Oligarchy.
-We have the internet platform now for campaigns; outlawing corporate 'BIG MONEY' for elections so elections can be run for honest beliefs not part favoritism. Probably the single second largest problem to the Media Oligarchy.
-Deem international election funds as treason.
-New Limit On derivatives if not outlawing them completely if an alternative method can not be agreed upon
-Deem corporate governorship as a rouge subvert party and there for a criminal conspiracy of treason, wait that's right it already is. I hope that demands are met because really because this could get ugly.
-legislative observation over the scholarship and text book malpractices of all educational infrastructure.
-Legislative malpractice observation for pricing of living and educational standards in lieu of fixed market directives. Once again it already is illegal, yet not imposed; referring to a need for a constitutional outlaw of corporate and media oligarchs for, I really hope, obvious reasons.
-Ending of the second class citizen, either enforce the borders and raise the living standard wage for all employment or allow migrant workers to work with dignity and equality. Creating a flexible scholastic system for migrant workers in which they too can allow their children to achieve the American dream yet have a taxable system for which they pay into the school creating jobs for teachers. It would light up the hearts of most migrant workers to have education for their children.
-OUTLAW CORPORATE BLOGGING AND PAID BLOGGING FOR PROPAGANDA IS THE MOST DEVIOUS FORM OF PERSPECTIVE MANIPULATION.
-Create an American factory trust fund with lots of oversight. LOTS.
-Deem corporate medical insurance used for treatment of conditions caused by corporate environmental malpractice causing toxic environments as a form of economic entrapment as a form of medical insurance/treatment slavery or bondage; for example, as a father works for a chemical plant his children are ill from the environmental hazard caused by the toxicity of the factory's out put and therefor the father must continue to work at the plant to continue to receive medical insurance for his children that his employers are responsible for causing. This in turn causes the employee to be circularly dependent on the employer as is usually the case that in such an environment the children in turn when are old enough to work have brain damage or near to causing little options left but to work locally causing the system to repeat.
-Deem 401k and corporate retirement plans as un-penalize-able for leaving and shifting company's, this is due to that derivatives are pre-stated as illegal there for the 401k can not be inflated therefor not penalize-able with out being subject to the law that it is a federal crime to destroy money.
All. I saw some demands that were posted from the Chicago Occupy Wall Street that seemed reasonable and spot on:
These are the list of proposed demands. They will be up for vote tonight at 7pm @ 500 S Michigan Ave in front of the horse.
1.PASS HR 1489 REINSTATING GLASS-STEAGALL. – A depression era safeguard that separated the commercial lending and investment banking portions of banks. Its repeal in 1999 is considered the major cause of the global financial meltdown of 2008-2009.
REPEAL BUSH TAX CUTS FOR THE WEALTHY
FULLY INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE THE WALL STREET CRIMINALS who clearly broke the law and helped cause the 2008 financial crisis.
4.OVERTURN CITIZENS UNITED v. US. – A 2010 Supreme Court Decision which ruled that money is speech. Corporations, as legal persons, are now allowed to contribute unlimited amounts of money to campaigns in the exercise of free “speech.”
PASS THE BUFFET RULE ON FAIR TAXATION, CLOSE CORPORATE TAX LOOPHOLES, PROHIBIT HIDING FUNDS OFFSHORE....
GIVE THE SEC STRICTER REGULATORY POWER, STRENGTHEN THE CONSUMER PROTECTION BUREAU, AND PROVIDE ASSISTANCE FOR OWNERS OF FORECLOSED MORTGAGES WHO WERE VICTIMS OF PREDATORY LENDING.
7.TAKE STEPS TO LIMIT THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS AND ELIMINATE THE PRACTICE OF LOBBYISTS WRITING LEGISLATION.
ELIMINATE RIGHT OF FORMER GOVERNMENT REGULATORS TO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS OR INDUSTRIES THEY ONCE REGULATED.
ELIMINATE CORPORATE PERSONHOOD.
INSIST THE FEC STAND UP FOR THE PUBLIC INTEREST IN REGULATING PRIVATE USE OF PUBLIC AIRWAVES to help ensure that political candidates ARE GIVEN EQUAL TIME for free at reasonable intervals during campaign season.
REFORM CAMPAIGN FINANCE WITH THE PASSAGE OF THE FAIR ELECTIONS NOW ACT (S.750, H.R. 1404).
FORGIVE STUDENT DEBT – The same institutions that gave almost $2T in bailouts and then extended $16T of loans at little to no interest for banks can surely afford to forgive the $946B of student debt currently held. Not only does this favor the 99% over the 1%, it has the practical effect of more citizens spending money on actual goods, not paying down interest.
I propose the following:
Tax reform. Eliminate the loopholes that allow the wealthy and corporations to pay less than their fair share of taxes.
More consumer protections. Cap credit card interest rates at a reasonable number (let's say 10%) so that those with large amounts of debt stand a reasonable chance of paying it off. Also, allow citizens to defer payments on credit cards for up to one year in the event that they lose their job or have a qualifying life crisis (death in the family, loss of their house, etc.) without having to pay for a credit protection service in advance.
Outlaw the practice of employer discrimination on the basis of credit history or current employment status.
Outlaw the practice of employers laying off employees only to hire them back as independent contracters with no benefits or job security.
Raise the federal minimum wage to $10.00 per hour.
Make public colleges and universities free to all tax-paying citizens. (Universities that receive no public funding may continue to charge what they like.)
Pass legislation to control the cost of medical care and begin the process of transitioning to a single-payer health care system. (For-profit insurance is killing us, literally.)
Protect the unions. Restore all rights to collective bargaining that have been stripped away in recent years.
Extend unemployment benefits for the long-term unemployed.
Pass the Obama jobs bill to help the American people in the short term.
10 won't work, Clowngress just nixed the bill a few days ago.
I have believed in and supported the Occupy Wall Street movement from afar, from the first day. Your heart was in the right place, Lloyd, and you obviously put a lot of thought and work into this. But I don't agree with ANY of these ideas. The closest I can get is agreement on the elimination of "Free Trade" and Demand Eight. Also, NONE of these demands addresses what I understood the protest to be about: Ending greed. Let's start there.
I would begin with "Impose 1% Federal Sales Tax on all stock purchases." We have to pay state sales tax when we buy a car. Should be the same to buy part of a company. This would end the "churning" and propensity of billionaires to swap stocks on a daily basis like most of us change socks. Maybe get investors back to thinking of the stock market as a place to raise capital for businesses instead of simply a mechanism to make the rich richer.
Another idea to rein in greed: Impose more stringent and severe rules against fraud and stock manipulation, then actually ARREST somebody. The govt. has no problem rounding up protesters for stepping off the sidewalk, but they don't have time to go get guys like Madoff? (And trust me, there are a LOT more like Madoff around).
Another idea - set a cap on executive salaries. Follow a variation on the Ben and Jerry's concept: For example - a CEO cannot earn more than 100 times the salary of a company's lowest-paid employee. Not only reins in the obscene salaries for execs, also gives them an incentive to increase salaries of lower-paid employees. (Example: If floor sweeper earns $15,000/yr, CEO gets $1.5 million. If CEO wants raise to $2 million, floor sweepers get raise to $20,000). This way, as the conservatives like to say, "a rising tide lifts all boats." Good way to harness greed for good.
And if CEO gets stocks in lieu of pay, the lowest paid employees get the same ratio of stocks.
And "free trade" has to end. American-based companies should no longer be allowed to use money earned from and off the backs of Americans, only to reinvest that money in factories overseas. U.S. companies must manufacture here, or move their headquarters overseas and be banned from doing business in the U.S. See how they like operating under CHINA's rules!
Just some ideas, but the key message has to be this:
END THE GREED!!!
There is more sense in a single paragraph's worth of your ideas than the entire list. I'd add that the cap on exec. salaries should be done to politicians - they get paid the computed average American wage and NO MORE.
This posting above is just some outsider comment, not a real demand by Occupy Wall Street. Although Occupy Wall Street has no list of demands yet. I have some suggestions. What should be on the list is the massive "wealth redistribution" that has gone on for the last 30 years. With the decline of unions and the lowering of the marginal tax rates from 90% in 1950's to 36% now, all of the nation's wealth has been paid out at the top to the corporate executives.
The middle class spends their wealth on goods/services and the corporations have redistributed their wealth by paying their profits all out to the executives and shareholders. Middle class wages have stagnated for 30 years while executive wages have gone up 256% in since 1980. Even last year executive compensation went up another 11%. The top 1% now controls over 42% of the entire nation's wealth. We have not seen numbers like this since the great depression. The top 10% controls 70% of the entire nation's wealth. All of our nation's wealth has been redistributed into the hands of the few.
The middle class was roped into replacing wages with easy credit. So instead of paying people living wages, corporations fooled us into thinking we were doing well and could afford things by giving us easy credit instead of wages. Instead of having wages to buy t.v.'s, furniture, etc. we were given easy loans. So the middle class became a debtor class. There used to be a tax disincentive to paying out all of corporate profits at the top because in the 1950's income was taxed at 90% over a certain amount money and now that tax disincentive has disappeared. In 1950's the highest marginal tax rate was 90%. In 1960-1970's it was 70%. In 1980's it dropped to 49%. In 1990's dropped to 39%. Under George Bush it dropped to a mere 36%. We have had over 30 years of massive tax cuts for the wealthy.
There is now no tax disincentive to paying out all of the corporate wealth at the top. And there is no employee bargaining power because now less than 12% of all of our jobs are unionized. Corporate profits are at an all time high, healthcare company profits are at an all time high, and oil profits are at an all time high. We don't have a healthcare crisis we have a healthcare company profit-taking crisis that no politician will doing anything about. Healthcare and oil companies have enjoyed a decade of record profits while we have had a decade of massive premiums for little coverage and a decade of outrageous gas prices.
The problems are: 1) deregulation of the banks by the Republican-controlled congress in 1999; 2) hedge funds are exempt from regulation; 3) tax system no longer has a disincentive against paying outrageous executive salaries (highest marginal tax rate has dropped from 90% to 36%); 4) commodities market is exempt from regulation (Republican-controlled Congress exempted it in the Commodities Future Modernization act of 2000); 5) the Supreme Court has ruled that corporations can spend unlimited funds in campaign elections (thus politicians on both sides favor the wealthy/corporations) and 6) the rise of corporate/billionaire propaganda media "news." Because of the need to raise massive sums in politics today, we no longer have a party that represents the people. The Democrats have to chase the corporate and big money donors too.
What can we do about this: 1) re-instate Glass-Steagall Act regulating the banks; 2) regulate hedge funds and the commodities market (because the commodities market is not regulated speculation has caused prices for commodities to go through the roof); 3) get rid of the money in politics (have federally funded elections with clear limits on spending and no outside groups allowed to have ads); 4) get rid of 1980's laws stating that corporations' only duty is to maximize shareholder profits; and 5) regulate "news" channels and newspapers (no more "slanted opinion news" masquerading as hard news) and reinstitute the fairness doctrine across all news outlets to ensure that both sides get equal time.
Corporations should have duties to society and to their workers too. They should have to balance their duties to maximize shareholder profits against their reinstated duties to their employees and to society. The laws saying that corporations' only duty is to maximize shareholder profits have led to the destruction of long-term business plans and care for their workers and have created short-term profit monsters at the expense of workers and society.
What about passing legislation that there will be no more smurf movies while we are at it?
Wow I so much want to support this cause and I truly believe many "mainstream" people do but this is just absurd. You guys are terrible at PR . Half the videos you post on your site have young people comparing America to Nazi Germany and screaming at police like they just killed your family off. Get a grip and focus a bit stop acting like spoiled brats. Id like to see one rational person in some of these news feeds who doesnt wreak of entitlement.... People are just looking for reasons to support this cause and I fear you guys are doing a great job of keeping them from doing so.
Yeah, I don't think so. How about one simple demand from us. Read Henry Hazlitt's "Economics In One Lesson".
You are proposing slavery. Demanding free healthcare and free education requires that someone is forced to work for you for free. Do you really want to espouse that?
News Flash - we already have free healthcare. Emergency rooms are "not permitted to deny care to anyone due to race, ethnicity, gender or ability to pay". The LOGIC is that people get care BEFORE it becomes an emergency - for example; a simple doctors visit for a tooth ache to get antibiotics instead of allowing it to become full blown blood poisoning. ER visits from the poor cause unpaid bills, thus higher insurance rates for you and me. Plus, this Healthcare Bill reigns in unethical practices by Corporate Healthcare Providers such as dropping someone if they become sick, or denying coverage for an existing condition. 4 mIllion children now have healthcare that never had it before. These are bad things somehow? WWJD? lol
And that rule is part of what makes healthcare so expensive.
When you try to destroy the relationship between right and responsibility, you will fail. But what you will do is create a feedback loop that will grow until the system is either destroyed, or it crashes, then reverts to its natural state.
What is strange is that you admit this, but then want to make the problem much worse, and much bigger.
Weird!
Why not demand a list whereupon the whole bottom 99% can agree upon?
Or like Dennis Kucinich said it: "It is not about left or right. It is about right or wrong. It is about up (1%) or down (99%)."
First we have to take back democracy and accountability. I think if we want to slaughter the corporate beast ALL 99% should converge and focus on a couple of simple, but important, issues. The left and right paradigm is now not helpful in finding ways out of this mess. And most importantly it divides us and does not break the back of the corrupted camel.
Ralph Nader suggested the following list of four demands, whereupon a coalition can be based upon:
1) Bring our troops home.
2) Repeal of the patriot act. (and restore descent elections)
3) No deficit spending for reckless adventurism by the government
4) Restore the monetary powers to congress (end or audit the FED )
The video can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLdcB0ln9t8
It also features the last sincere and honest politicians on Capitol Hill: Dennis Kucinich (D Ohio) and Ron Paul (R Texas). They have been friends for decades, and cooperate politically against the corrupted establishment, despite they are diametrically positioned in the left-right paradigm.
Their friendship should be an example for us! United we stand!
For the ones who want to be inspired by their friendship, see: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kucinich+and+paul&aq=f
Personally I think the following issues are also important to address or interesting to consider:
5) Accountability and prosecution of the crimes on Wall street and Washington DC
6) Disentanglement of big business and campain contributions
7) Blockade the revolving doors between the regulatory bodies and big business
8) Find a way to discourage lobbying, perhaps through taxing
9) National Investment program in Green energy, Education and infrastructure (instead of wars, bail outs and socialism for the rich)
I suggest to get Nader, Kucinich & Paul to New York and form a coalition of the bottom 99%. As now the media attention rises, also the scrutiny on your message increases. Pick a clear and bold goal!
Here's an actual sensible list!
YES! Somebody GETS it!
This list makes ten times the sense and might actually be doable!
TARP yields a $20B profit. Check your facts
Let's now look at demand six and demand seven. One trillion in infrastructure and one trillion in ecological restoration. First I wonder why one trillion and not two or three trillion. Hell, lett's go for 10 trillion for each. After all, once we get demand eleven, all debt being wiped out, we might as well borrow a hundred ga zillion dollars. Whoopee!
Lets look at demand four, for fun. "Free College Education" So does that mean all professors, administrators and other college employees must work for free, with donated books and computers and the use of donated buildings. Is that how it is "free". Of course, not so free to the working-for-less-than-a working-wage professors. Or by "free" do you mean free to the students but paid for by others. Not exactly free either because someone is then paying for it. The notion of "free" needs a lot more thinking that we see here.
The governmant can print the money and spend it on tuitions not war. And Starbucks will be free too. Machiattos for the people!
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! I could KISS you right now...I hate when people talk about federal programs like they're free. Not saying they're bad, just saying they ain't free.
they are bad
and you're an idiot. Go drown yourself.
Wow pretty violent.
No more than the ooga-booga gun-toters.
What's that?
If you think 'go drown yourself' is 'violent'...go lurk on a conservatard forum where they fantasize about "shooting hippies like skeet", among other things.
Why are you so hateful?
Why are you too d@mn lazy to go see that's what they're actually saying?
CCNY was free at one time. Then it was very low cost. I don't know how low cost it is now. It was never a federal program though, it was local.
This is the only "bill" these halfwits have ever even seen, that is the only reason they are asking for it. They wanted to ask for free "weed" but they thought that might make them look even stupider then they do now.
Completely ridiculous, overblown, and Idealistic. Narrow it down to a soundbite. Have you ever heard of Frank Lunts, the Republican strategist? He is the one responsible for every buzzword/ soundbite that comes out of the right. We need thst. Concise messaging.
I agree. The movement needs something catchy, like "fight the smears."
Ooh, ooh - how about "hope and change"?
...from someone who'd never fought the right-wingers on any real level, voted 'present' all the time, has all the tactical finesse of a runaway bulldozer, and failed to make good on basically ANY of his big promises once elected?
Methinks it's time for a new face and a new phrase.
That’s been tried – now all we can do is change to something else, It’s our only HOPE!
Why is that all you can understand is a sound bite? I think thats a sign of lead poisoning.
While I can get behind a few of the ideas (Especially getting rid of Credit agencies, Credit is a Make believe thing anyway!!). But this is basically Demands that setup a One World Currency, One world Government. This is EXACTLY what the Elite want. More concentrated seat of power. This smells fishy to me.
Funny how that works, isn't it? The same goes for the debt forgiveness. The most debt is held by the wealthy, not the poor. (Seriously, which bank gives loans to the poor?) They would love to see their debts forgiven, considering they're making the payments just fine.
It's quite clear that you guys know all about 'make believe'.
I have been supporting "Occupy" but as I awaken this morning to this long list of demands I am very skeptical. Open borders? REALLY? Our system is already over burdened by illegal aliens. A living wage "regardless of employment?" Seriously? I have been working since I was 11, there's always some way to make money. You need to keep it at preventing the wealthy from running our Government. We need a CLEAR CUT message and you are throwing too many issues into the pot and muddying the waters. I will not support a long list of rambling. This is no better than politicians throwing in "pork" on a major bill in order to get his own personal agenda passed.
RE Demand one: Tariffs will increase the cost of goods for consumers, and use the strong arm of the government to protect businesses that would otherwise fail. AS for the minimum wage being set to $20 per hour, most small business would not be able to hire people, margins are too low to be able to pay workers $20 per hour.
RE Demand two: The government is doing such a great job at colluding with Big Business, and you want them to take control of Healthcare so they can monopolize it instead???
RE Demand three: This kind of thinking goes against everything that is American. I suggest you build a hut, sharpen a spear, and move to an isolated location so you can guarantee your own standard of living. For me, I will never rely on the government to house and feed me. I’d go with my first suggestion before that ever happened.
RE Demand four: The more power the government has, the more collusion that will continue between the banks and big business. These demands are asking for more government intervention. Why were our grandparents and parents able to pay for college by simply working every summer? The answer is, the government wasn't in the college loan and aid business, which has been the main reason education cost have skyrocketed. If the government wasn't in the College Business, prices would come down to what students could afford, or they would go out of business.
RE Demand five: Walk, and where I suppose we could agree, stop exploiting Middle Eastern and African Nations resources, and utilize our own. I’m all for non-fossil fuel alternatives, but BIG GOV and BIG BIZ, keep people with good ideas out of the game. Electric cars have been around for 50 years, you’d think we’d be further then a starting price of $30k.
RE Demand six: You want Big Gov to have the FED print more money to de-value the money in your pocket? Why not let local communities invest in their own projects, instead of sending their tax dollars to Washington, then waiting for BIG Gov to pay for these projects?
RE Demand seven: Again, the FED printing this money de-value’s the money in your pocket. Why not sue BIG Business when they screw up the environment, allow local communities to do so. We have enough attorneys and scientist to prove where the pollution is coming from, to get solid lawsuits against the polluters.
RE Demand eight: Why not let the people of a community shut down businesses that discriminate, and run them out of town? Why give the government more policing power?
RE Demand nine: Sure, but we shouldn’t give benefits and welfare to those who don’t participate, in a local community.
RE Demand ten: Hallelujah! I’m all for this, I just don’t want the FED GOV in control of it!
RE Demand eleven: The US should only be responsible for the US, we have no business involving ourselves in other peoples debt across the world. But I guess if they can forgive the Mega-Banks for their debt, they should also forgive the consumers. It is a broken system, and needs to be decentralized, and by decentralized; I mean get the government out of it! Allow for competing currencies and barter trading.
RE Demand twelve: I hate them, but again I don’t want the government telling me I have to give credit to someone who is a bad risk, and puts my business in jeopardy.
RE Demand thirteen: I’m ok with workers forming Unions, but if I don’t want to join, then I think it should not prohibit me from being employed at a company.
RE final statement: these demands will bankrupt every small business in America. I thought you were against BIG BANKS, BIG BUSINESS, and BIG GOVERNMENT COLLUSION with the TWO? Your demands are asking for BIGGER GOVERNMENT and that will result in tyranny!
You far too orthodox libertarian for this protest and unless you learn to compromise with the left wing social living wage agenda you will never catch speed with this protest movement. I suggest you do some reading about the American labor battles that created the living wage and made the American living standard highest in the world albeit the most ecologically damaging standard of living. Of course we built our society with the wrong energy source.
I'm too libertarian to be in the 99%??? I thought this movement was about The 99% who will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%? We can both agree that bailouts for wall street need to stop and that Gov and Corporate collusion needs to be eliminated. Heck I think we agree that we need to END all the wars... So how can't we work together on those stated issues? If you agreed to those issues which we agree as your demands, you could increase your movement by millions. Sounds like a WIN, what do you think?
http://www.thestreet.com/story/11049777/tarp-yields-20-billion-profit-treasury-says.html
I would recommend you read The Law by Frederic Bastiat. It's short and concise.
Fears of working in unsafe and unsanitary conditions for low pay drove the creation of the modern labor movement. Legislators who represented large populations of factory workers wanted a regulatory system that protected workers rights (and fueled organized labor political contributions).
So now it costs so much to buy an American-made auto that we have to artificially prop these companies up with billions of taxpayer investment. We don’t have nearly enough electric power to meet the demands of a technology-fueled society, and it would take years to navigate the regulatory maze to get power plants built. We all saw what happened when Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac failed, the consequence of legislators using their power to give something to those who could not otherwise afford it.
um.. i'm pretty sure that 99% of america isn't socialist.
99% of America has no idea what 'socialist' actually means, because they were spoonfed a barftastically WRONG definition from shout radio or a blog.
Um, do you even know how to write? What do you think will happen to the value of a $20 an hour wage if EVERYONE is getting it? I'm sure that you're an idiot so I'll explain it to you.
$20 and hour will end up being POVERTY, and EVERYONE WILL BE IN POVERTY. You meathead.
Which came first the consumer with money in their pocket or the consumer product.
Keep it simple. Suppose you do just that: raise the minimum wage to 20$ an hour.
That means all those people running around your local MacDonalds will now have to be paid $20 an hour. To pay that, MacDonalds will have to raise the cost of their food. So, the MacDonalds' employee gets off work, goes around to the front of the counter to spend all their new found wealth and discovers . . . that $20 buys slightly less than what $7.50 did when $7.50 was the minimum wage.
Artificially raising wages will simply raise costs accordingly. You, and your ilk, simply do not have a clue as to what money is.
Oh, goodie, here we go spanky.
And how do you supose that the consumer got their money? Maybe a JOB (or in your case a handout from your mommy)?
That consumer WORKED for the money and chose where to spend that money (unless we are talking about a government enforced monopoly like the current president is trying to implement on many fronts).
Get a clue.
Which came first, stupidity or Lloyd?
I recommend a discussion thread for each of these topics discussing their merits. I am with in calling out the problems we are facing as a nation and I love the peaceful nature of your protests, but see the solutions very differently. I wish you all well. Be safe!
Form a committee! Yes!!!
Is this list of demands "official" from the protesters on Wall Street?
No, this is not official but could act as a good template to start with.
no. no it couldn't. believe me, your 'template' will kill the movement before it can get anywhere.
I agree this list is mostly ridiculous, but shame on anyone who responded to Demand Eight with "everyone in America already has equal rights".
When it becomes illegal in all 50 states to fire someone from their job based solely on their sexual orientation or gender identity - both scientifically demonstrated to be innate biological qualities - call me up.
How about you occupy a job...the country needs ditch diggers and burger flippers, too!
Who ever wrote these demands is a fool. Person A buys a home with a huge mortgage and me debt is immediately wiped off. Person B buys a home a month later and has a huge mortage. Unfair and plain stupid. Secondly, if all the demands were met, you would have hyperinflation. I think the Occupy Wall Street movement is misguided by people who have no idea. What they should be protesting about is taxes being used to prop up the rich with the bailouts and subsequent bonuses.
This marxist list of bullshit is destroying the credibility of the movement. You need to purge it from your forum and end any further damage. On second though replace it with the real "proposed" list of demands which the media has been ignoring since this one ruffles so many more feathers. I copied the other one here: http://www.hyperconx.com/wils-stuff/occupywallstreet_pr.html
Demand suggestion: Cap and peg CEO pay to a suitable multiplier of the average wage with a strict bonus system based on company performance. Also cap severance package.
Demand suggestion: Increase taxes for the super rich, close tax loop holes and increase tax free threshold / low taxes for the poor (note many super rich people have recently pledged support for this).
Comment - Gap between rich and poor was a key driver for the recent UK riots and is a serious growing socioeconomic problem in most countries.
I could support 1-7. Good draft. Maybe immigration should actually be closed until the jobs materialize though. I work overseas as an American most of the time. No other country that I know of even pretend to extend rights to what they call "guest workers".
Immigrants to America today do not relinquish citizenship to their "home" countries. They become dual citizens. America is just a place to make money for these workers. They send/remit US dollars back home, taking money out of our country. They have no more loyalty to America than I do to China when I am working over there...Food for thought.
This is truly ridiculous and looks like it was written by tea baggers to discredit OWS. It's best to respond that we have no official list and then vote only for those candidates who will pledge to GET CORPORATE MONEY OUT OF POLITICS AND LIMIT CORPORATE INFLUENCE OVER GOVERNMENT.
Everyone has lost sight of the point. The whole reason to "occupy wall street" isn't to make them pay more tax, and it's not for all your personal reasons, it's to get their money out of the government! This would end most government corruption.
Let the rich stay rich if they're successful and good at what they do, but they (the corporations/the rich) should not be allowed to give any sort of incentives, rewards, prizes, or anything at all to our congress upon voting for or against a bill.
Corporations are the cause for government corruption in many ways, mostly being that they'll pay off senators and congressman to pass things that are bad for our economy and government but helpful to the corporations as well as paying them to deny things that are bad for the corporations (aka budgets and cuts that include cutting funding to the corporation itself, but necessary for our economy to return to normal).
Wanted to point out that this 'List of Demands' is NOT written by anyone closely involved with Occupy Wall Street for starters, secondly it's completely ridiculous and is a detriment to our movement because main stream media has been touting it as our official list of demands.
WE DO NOT HAVE A LIST OF DEMANDS!!! And there is a disclaimer at the top of the page now, which many are still missing for some reason.
Please don't waste time on this people... Instead, lend a hand at an Occupy protest near you, help educate people who might be misinformed thanks to main stream bullshit reporting.
I can tell there are many great minds monitoring things here.... let's put our heads together and come up with viable solutions, some would serve as temporary solutions in order to work on the permanent fix/solution.
We honestly CAN make a difference.... let's work collectively without rancor.
Bless each and every one of you!!
I believe that there is only ONE demand. That everybody have an opportunity to participate and be heard be their government. That means, no lobbyists, no special interest groups, an equal platform for every single voice. An opportunity for consensus and compromise as equals.
A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. When compounded with an inability to connect the dots, especially those pesky historical and economic ones, you end up with> Occupy Wall Street. Enjoy your urban camping adventure while I and the rest of my small group of 1%'ers produce the goods, services, and intellectual property that you consume without any thought. Gotta go now, have to work to pay for your ... whatever! cheers, 30west
Demand fourteen: Everyone gets a free teddy bear.
Demand fifteen: Allow all workers to wear Snuggies to work
Demand sixteen: Sell Nebraska to Canada to fund free dreadlocks for everyone
Demand seventeen: Through Santa Claus in jail for not obeying workers rights
Anything else you guys want to throw on here?... I'm a liberal, but I've got to say you're making the Tea Party look sane...
Even worse, think of the 2012 elections. I used to be laughing at the right-wing candidates like Wrongney and Falin...until I started looking at what the left was likely to come up with.
I'm not laughing anymore. 'Pathetic' is an understatement.
I would change demand fifteen to the new "Forever Lazy" it's the onesie version of the snuggie with a handy butt flap.
Lloyd J Hart here MUST be joking! A living wage for all regardless of unemployment, added with an open border policy will turn America into the slums of the world in a new york minute.
This is horrible, horrible, horrible! I would hope that if this is proposed in GA, that all but the person proposing it throw a Block. This is sickening!
Oh and Lloyd, the right-wing propaganda machine's networks LOVE your proposal. Thanks for making us all look like idiots.
I have one- stop spending US tax dollars to fund the education of foreign-born PhD students and then deporting them against their will, despite being married to a US citizen and desperately having petitioned to remain with their spouse/partner. Allow them to stay and contribute meaningfully to the US economy and society. Stop the brain drain!
Lloyd, I think it was well thought out and I'm hoping those 1 percenters realize that a 2 class system of, the rich and those that serve the rich, will always have the same end result.
I can't really agree with forgiving all debt (especially the foreign debt the Republicans ran up over the last 30 years) and the debt of those irresponsible persons that just cannot help themselves to have the latest crap or gizmo or model vehicle, or those that decided to live well beyond their means when purchasing a home. I suggest we force those Lenders to refinance every one of those home loans at 1 percent interest rate over a 40 or 50 year term. I belive that would lower the monthly payments enough that a responsible person working 40 hours a week can afford. For those who could show that they were able to make their monthly payments and subsequently lost their job should be given debt deferrment until a job can be found or provided under a major government bail out / jobs program (at least $10 trillion) of the people. Those that sill cannot afford those terms probably should not have purchased a home in the first place.
I think the rich will never voluntarily agree to being fairly taxed which should be at around 75% rate. I foresee the Forbes' list of the richest 500 Americans eventually becoming a "hit list".
I think those responsible for the collapse of the world economies should be arrested and all of their assets seized and returned to the treasury.
Finally, I think Obama/Biden should resign as president/vice president and Alan Greyson/Dennis Kucinich should be appointed for the next 8 years to undo every peice of legislation enacted under Bush/ Cheney, every appointment terminated (including those to the supreme court), and an immediate end to war and occupation of foreign nations. Finally, Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and the rest of the Bush/Cheney bunch should be tried for war crimes and hung with the same rope they used on Saddam.
We Dont Need "Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live."
If more people are coming in WE WILL HAVE NO JOBS LEFT FOR US who are already un-employed...
No New Green Cards Should be issued.. FUCK OFF if you dont agree... i dont give a damn about such protest if you bringing in people from out to our country.....
theRevolutionCenter.com
I am distressed to see that my demand has not been included in the “Proposed List Of Demands For Occupy Wall St Movement.”
What I want is for an investigation to be instigated, and charges leveled at the bankers and low lives on Wall Street that caused the global crash we are still experiencing.
To date: No one has been charged for the largest theft ever perpetrated against mankind. Am I the only one who sees this as a "crime against humanity?"
Deleting my comment won't make you right. Instead it goes to show that you are no different than China and North Korea.
I was happy to finally see the uprising in America, but when I came to this site, I was shocked at this list. I do not believe that this list of demands, suggested demands, or whatever one may choose to call it, is what most Americans desiring to participate believes the "Occupy Wall Street" Protest is about. Erase "All" debt? Outlaw credit reporting agencies? Open all migration borders? In other words, a "free-for-all'? The extreme ideology represented in this list of demands veers far from the main focus of most supporters are advocating. While the premise of an American uprising may be a good idea, the current agenda represented here rings more of a personal matter than a public one. The demonstrated lack of foresight is alarming and calls for serious rational reform. Otherwise, the power of the "understood" collective effort will prove to be fleeting. Perhaps, this post is a prank aimed to undermine the efforts of the "Occupy Wall Street" movement. I can see that those who desire to disband the organization for political reform will stop at nothing to prevent such a reform from ever happening.
I do hope this is a rough draft; some of the ideas are good. Others belong in a fantasy world...Hell I would love all my college paid for and debt wiped clean. Not going to happen. For the most part these demands show no economic, political or social awareness and are flat out asinine. While I am on the fence about this movement, I would like to see change, this is not going to get anything accomplished, go back and try again come forth with a well worded coherent and though out proposal, there is world wide attention on this movement, don’t squander and belittle it with poorly thought out demands.
I was happy to finally see the uprising in America, but when I came to this site, I was shocked and disappointed. I do not believe that the list of demands, suggested demands, or whatever one may choose to call it, is what most Americans desiring to participate believes the "Occupy Wall Street" Protest is about. Erase "All" debt? Outlaw credit reporting agencies? Open all migration borders? In other words, a "free-for-all'? The extreme ideology represented in this list of demands veers far from the main focus of most supporters are advocating. While the premise of an American uprising may be a good idea, the current agenda represented here rings more of a personal matter than a public one. The demonstrated lack of foresight is alarming and calls for serious rational reform. Otherwise, the power of the "understood" collective effort will prove to be fleeting.
Whoever wrote these demands must be on funny mushrooms or a communist sympathizer. The real men who risked everything to ensure the First Amendment protects sillyness like this must be rolling in their graves. Bye the way, our Progessive President and his far left liberal allies in Congress have been milking the Wall Street money train forever, as has been their Republican opposition. Perhaps you should be in D.C. telling those knuckleheads to get their act together. The best thing about this country, is that thousands have died and sacrified so you can say anything regardless of how stupid it is. Let see if you will still be in NYCity when it hits 20 degress and the snow is falling.
"Let see if you will still be in NYCity when it hits 20 degress and the snow is falling."
There are bets on wingnut sites as to how long these sadsacks will last when the mercury goes below freezing. I'm betting on less than a week, myself.
Actually this whole consensus thing is frustrating, stifling and stymieing the great positive energy in the mass of disaffected youth. You could have 5 times as many ppl, if you said find your important issue, become and expert and make an action plan to make it happen, and we all report back to the group via GA. Calling Mises.org an irresponsible news agency is rather shortsighted, after all, that agency is anti-establishment/pro freedom/pro liberty and has been supporting the cause of freedom in economics since inception. Their main thing is to end the Federal Reserve. Is that not a common goal?
Too many demands. First we need campaign finance reform so that our government will no longer be controlled by the rich. Second, we need to roll back the Reagn tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans, when he reduced the rate for the wealthiest Americans from 74% to 28%. We currently have 412 BILLIONAIRES in America, what we need is to share this wealth for creating new jobs, providing healthcare and for providing our young with a quality education. This is not a Republican versus Democratic issue, this is truly an issue of we the 99% against the super wealthy who would effectively enslave us and our children. Now is the time for action. Stand up with the brave and patriotic supporters of the Occupy movement. Take back our country so that our children and their children will have a chance for a quality future. Talk to your neighbors, friends, and co-workers. Education will never be obtained from a corporate news broadcast. Occupiers everywhere, know in your hearts how proud we are of you. We recognize your bravery and your patriotism. YOU are our hope, our children's hope. We love you.
If we can bring both parties together, the Middle Class has a chance of survival. If we can't, then the new aristocracy will win.
A lot of these demands are excellent long-term goals. In the short term, they're laughably divisive and will only hurt the cause. Here are better options:
-Completely erasing all debt worldwide is infeasible, and again will turn off the middle-American voters we so desperately need in our cause. Better to eliminate all college loan debt instead! It will be difficult, but it may be achievable.
-Creating a universal health care system and a universal education system is great! However, completely eliminating all private options is again infeasible, and maybe even counter-productive as an immediate goal. It's more likely that we can have a great public system with additional private options. This is America. We can put reigns on capitalism. We can't likely destroy it.
-Outlawing credit reporting agencies is just a bad idea, period. It would hurt all borrowers, not just the irresponsible ones.
-Completely open borders is again infeasible, not politically achievable and most likely, counter-productive. We need to let more foreign workers in so we can legally and responsibly fill demand, but we can't completely open the borders and take away the paper trail of human migration. That would be an irresponsible demand. Allowing a reasonable number of immigrant workers in and making sure they get paid appropriate wages? That would be a great step.
This kind of college-campus rhetoric can't be part of the cause. When we make our demands irrational and unreasonable we only alienate the everyday Americans we need on our side. Let's get real and leave the most granola-headed and utopian demands behind.
Cut this list in half, and we've got the start of a real workable agenda!
Demand eight: More pie-in-the-sky stuff. There is already an Equal Protection Clause in the Constitution that supposedly grants equal protections in connection with government and State action, but it has been abused by Courts since the late 1800s. A proposed Equal Rights Amendment failed in the 1980s. Additional Amendments addressing these social issues would only cause more court cases and more confusing, judicial rulings that would still favor those people with the economic resources to game the legal system. The country simply needs to enforce the laws and regulations that are currently on the books.
Demand nine: If you are pro-illegal immigration, then you will love this one. I am anti-illegal immigration and I believe in national sovereignty, so I do not agree with this Demand either. I do agree that people should be able to travel, work and live wherever they want, but it shouldn't be an unfettered right to do anything one wants to do. I can't move to another country and expect to do whatever I want to do.
Demand ten: I agree that our election system is corrupt, but international elections are no better and in many cases, worse. I do believe that there should be a paper receipt for all votes that can be manually reviewed in case of any issues.
Demand eleven: I would love for all my student loans to be wiped off of the books, but wiping this debt out would not solve the problem. Legit debts need to be paid. Otherwise, wiping these debts out would simply create hyperinflation. Food isn't going to magically appear on your table. Your kids' clothes aren't going to magically sprout from a cottonseed. Gas isn't going to magically appear in your tank. Your cell phone and Internet bills will not pay themselves. If the economy goes into hyperinflation, most of these things will either disappear or become in very short supply very quickly. However, I do AGREE that all fraudulent debts and instruments need to be canceled and the originators of these instruments need to be criminally and civilly tried in Court.
Demand twelve: I don't really use credit anymore, but I do understand that some people need it to build businesses. I wouldn't outlaw credit reporting agencies, but I would curtail some of these agencies' powers.
Demand thirteen: What does this have to do with 99%? I'm not in a union and have never really wanted to be in a union. I don't have a desire to pay someone money for the "right" to negotiate on my behalf. It sounds like the mob to me. Union membership may be important to some, but it is an irrelevant issue to me and when I hear people pushing it as a major issue, then I know it's really a political issue!
There are a couple of decent points in those demands, but a majority of them are as unrealistic as me swimming to the Moon.
I bet many of these folks protesting and occupying these locations are great people who have the best intentions. However, I am reminded of that old statement about the pavement on the road to Hell. Sometimes when I write these blog articles, I hope I am wrong about my statements and this is one of those times! But....
At the end of the day, it seems like the anger in the streets has been (or will be) co-opted by the professional revolutionaries and all of their affiliates of the extreme progressive agenda.
http://djosiris.blogspot.com Where is the demand for the repeal of the PATRIOT Act? What about ending the international wars of aggression? What about ending the opium trade in Afghanistan? What about ending the Presidential-ordered killings of US citizens without a court hearing and due process? What about actually demanding criminal accountability on Wall Street (as the name of the group might imply) and in other financial arenas? Where is the demand for the disposition of the bankers' stolen loot and gains over the years? What about the end of warrantless wiretapping and spying by the government and telecoms? What about an end to the Federal Reserve? What about the nexus and conflict between former government regulators receiving lucrative private sector jobsfrom the very companies/industries they were regulating? What about the end of torture?
Nowhere.
And there is yet another problem with this list.
Dear god, these are some of the stupidest things I have ever read! Did you even think for one tiny second HOW some of these demands would possibly be met or any of their consequences? This list serves only to confirm what so many think of these kids: spoiled, entitled, historically and economically ignorant BRATS!
Amen to that.
This demands list alienates a large segment of the ows following. Many of us may prefer a more libertarian approach. Many of us feel that the entitlement rationale that seems prominent in these demands is the root of many of our current problems.
These demands are socialist, irrational and are, in essence, a bandaid to cover a much deeper socio-economic wound.
1.) I don't see how tariffs are connected with living wage. Lack of trade tariffs , that would mostly bother the "middle class" . I LIKE cheap stuff in Wallmart.
"But cheap stuff at Wallmart is also cheap in quality." -- Nonsense $10 sweatshirt in Wallmart is of equal quality as the $40 one in a university bookstore If "mom n pop" didn't have overpriced small selection they would have survived in capitalism. Why should I be doomed to sponsoring failed businessmen and women and support their economically unviable lifestyle? I don't think the poor in US should walk around in burlap bags just cuz "mom n pop" need to be petty bourgeois. "Restoration of the living wage" -- that's fine "only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs" - Totally arbitrary and with no causal connection.
2.) it's high time for free healthcare
3.)If the govt pays u the "living wage" - the govt is obliged to find/offer u a job If u refuse - ur out Take u to court - "Ok y did u refuse? What's yer problem?" If u don't have a valid reason - THEN ur a slacker and/or nutz
4.) AWESOME : D The only admission criteria for r college should be - Entrance Exams !!!! 5.) Bogus 6.) Is in the works. Really -- congress' job 7.) Boguuuuuuuuuus 8.) We already have that 9.) Loooooool -- Dreamer's World 10.) Hell Yeah!!!! I want international Observers and news crews on our election. 11.) Looooooool - Undoable 12.) Hehe, mebe 13.) Why is this No 13? WEIRD!!! This should be No 2!!! My 2 Centz : D
the only thing that matters right now is CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM, unless you get the big money out of politics, no change whatsoever will occur, this should be the focus of the protests, we need to have honest politicians that work for the public before any thing else can get done, campaign finance reform (ending corporate personhood, kicking the lobbyists out of the Washington) is the perfect starting point. It really is a no brainer that this should be the one thing we can all agree on. Because unless we do this, all those other demands that people have will never be addressed, not in a millions years.
What so many want is equal standards for everyone, wether your a doc or a construction worker, we both need each other, but we don't get the same pay. Because one is smarter and retains info, they get more, we all should be able to have the same. Get rid of the tresurer, they add a tax on each dollar made by them, don't forget, we went to war with Britian because the king wanted to us only his money and we said no, so we kicked them out, then what, they introduces a bill to form another one here, that the people don't own but only a small handful do and rep the profits daily. There is no reason whatso ever that if your willing to work, that you don't have your own house. There has been so many inventions made the get rid of fossil fuel, it's crazy, but thier bought up by huge corporation, just watch a video called , who stole the electric car,( henry fords first cars were electric).But an oil guy said you'll never make any money with just electric so he went the other way. Fossil fuel should have been gone 40 years ago but large companies would lose money, so what. Stop spending money to other countries until our own people are taken care of first. Stay out of other country's problem, they've been going on for thousand of years and will never change, I'm not talking about leaders who go nuts, but the people themselves. get rid of the middle man, he's only making money from your products and giving you nothing. Reduce the crap at the borders, there's 500 miles of oregon coast with only a few people patrolling it, come on, better to try going through the border, yah right.Billions being spent on nothing, people will always find the easiest way around things.Bring factories back to where they should be, if people could make a decent wage, they could afford to buy things made here, not by some kid who make 2 bucks a month and then they sell it to you at $200. Make work here, not overseas. These are very basic idea's that would change our world I think for the better, instead of going backwards, for once we'd be going forward. After the last world war, we had the largest middle class citizen's in the world, what happened????????????
Though I agree with a lot of what you have as demands, you also need to add to this about our government. Limit anyone running for a government office starting in 2012, that it should only be for four years and no more. No more holding these office positions as a life time career. AND that they only get paid $50,000.00 a year for the position. The same salary as middle class makes or use to make. This will get rid of the corruption currently in office and to make sure that whoever holds these positions, that they know they work for the people, and not for corporations...etc. Also that it is illegal for them to take any money or help from corporations, special interest groups....etc. Basically government needs to get back to working for the 99% and not the 1%.
"The First Problem" Congress has to need US again. Get the money out of politics.
I have a point that needs to be discussed. One huge inequality that needs to be addressed is that the average CEO in the US makes between 250 to 300 times the average employee.
$10,982,000 vs $41,861, if those CEOs would reduce that to the 1970 -1980 numbers of 30 X. That could yield 200+ more jobs per company.
http://www.epi.org/publication/webfeatures_snapshots_20060621/
Based on the fact there are over 18,000 firms employing more than 500 employees that could yield between 3.5 million to 2.0 million jobs!
Why do we need layoffs? So CEOs can make their bonus?
If you believe this is justified then you might as well give up the fight, you believe they are right.
True Democracy
We like to think that the forms of government in countries such as the U.S.A, Australia, Canada, U.K. and various other European nations are democratic. They are not. This is best demonstrated by today's Australian minority government. How many times do governments make improper decisions and the people pay. Greece is a current example. If the people have to pay for bad decisions then they should be the ones who make the decisions. Governments too often treat the public as children who are not able to make their own decisions.
Democracy needs to be relevant to the new era in which we live. Current forms of so called democracy were designed for an era dependent on primitive technology and communications. Today the voting public can have a direct say in every major decision of government.
I propose a form of real democracy:
When political parties run for election they would be required by law to:
Publish an executive summary of each portfolio (government ministry) identifying goals, strategies, key performance indicators (KPIs) with time lines and Budgets.
The Treasury provides equal funding for the campaigns of each party. All parties cannot exceed the same set spending level.
A contract is established between the voting public and the winning party. The party then forms government.
Should the government not meet its KPIs within predetermined time frames and budgets then an online referendum is called to decide if the voting public will continue to allow the governing party to continue. The party has the ability to present it's case prior to the vote being taken. Alternative parties also have the opportunity to present their viewpoint before a vote is taken.
Each voter is given a secure pin number, all voting takes place online. For those without computers they attend upgraded central computer facilities (We move millions of dollars each day via pin numbers- certainly secure online voting could be achieved if the will was there to refine the technology). Online voting would provide for comparatively cheap, easy and instant results.
All key policy issues such as immigration, foreign ownership, carbon tax, defence, education, health, government spending and so on would all be put before the voting public as a matter of course rather than be decided upon by government. Each major decision for the country would be truly made by the people and not by the government of the day. Surely this is a greatly superior form of democracy than what we have today.
Thank you for considering my concept.
Foolishinjustice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk6MeIt-w_Q
Some of these are really great. However, I too think we need fewer demands and more that cut straight to the artery of corporate undue influence over gov't, lack of access to the democratic process for the 99%, and lack of corporate accountability to the public at large. If we focused on rule of law that make these three things an issue, than over time a lot of the other demands would eventually be met (maybe) through the democratic process, because it would actually be working again. Many of these demands coincide more with the symptoms than the fundamental problem.
I think we need: 1.) clean elections - we need to overturn Citizens United - individual contributions only; 2.) we need to revamp corporate law completely. They should be be considered people by constitutional interpretation (so maybe we need a const. amendment), their purpose should not explicitly and legally be limited to shareholder wealth maximization, meaning they should be allowed to take into account workers, consumers, the environment etc. There is no logical reason, even from a market perspective why there should be a legal fiction imposed on corporations that prevents them from being socially conscious. It's not even better for the economy in the long run. Workers interests are just as likely, if not more, to be aligned with the best interest of the corporation as are shareholder rights 3.) Congress members and administrative law judges should be prohibited from owning stock while in office (this is an obvious conflict of interest - attorneys are allowed to own stock in the companies they are representing. Why should elected officials be able to own stock in the companies they are "regulating"). Once we get corporations out of the Capitol and they quit making every single decision based on a short term cost benefit analysis, we will have the freedom to legislate on all of the other issues which are symptoms of short sided materialism and corruption. 4.) The free trade issue is a good one. Part of why this world economy and people are suffering so much as a result of it is because international law has no real teeth and it's mostly just based on voluntarism of sovereign states, while corporations operate in their own law that transcends country borders. So there's always cheaper labor and somewhere to hide because there is no global legislature. So we need more agreement between the countries and more accountability.
This is great that we're all talking about these things now! Forget the people that say there's no focus. It's an organic process that would maybe take place in the democratic process if it weren't for the fact that it's currently broken. I see it as more than a protest against specific provisions, it's a nation finding it's voice again. Takes a while - and as long as it's growing in intensity and population, the broadness is ok. But I'd like to see us continue to think critically about what few things would impact all of the other problems and how we can funnel this into the essence of our economic injustice.
Peace.
I hope this gains a simple, straight-forward focus and purpose that grows to straighten out our 'broken' governace - there are simple questions the "99%" should ask of our government. I personally would start with their 'entitlements'...since they are looking at Social Security and other things that they call our 'entitlements', even though our employers and ourselves have paid into it more than we ever will take out, individually -
Why do the elected officials in Washington gain another retirement benefit other than the one all of us working US Citizens are eventually going to be a part of - Social Security. It makes no sense to me that we have created 'royalty' in the USA - that to me is a central point that could use some 'correction'. We fought the British to gain autonomy from royalty, yet we really have it here with this simple fact. They don't deserve more or a 'better' program then each of us do - it's that simple.
Where do the funds come from for all those folks currently retired from the Senate/Congress/etc.? I've never heard about that fund or how big it is. Let's liquidate it, put it in Social Security, retract whatever they have voted in for themselves, and put them all on the same program we all will be on. Level the playing field.
I want to hear their rationale for why they think this is deserved for them...don't you - and don't you think that everyone can agree on this simple question. Start there and it will lead you to what is wrong and we can all believe in it. My 2-cents
While I applaud the passion behind your demand list I think you should open it up to more debate. I think we should focus on things that both people on the right and left will get behind. I recommend 2 amendments to the constitution:
Election Reform - Remove the electoral collage. All elections in the US will allow the voter to select 1st choice through nth choice. The winner will be determined by finding the best overlap of the voter's selections. This would in effect remove 2 party control of our government. In addition allow voters to retain or not retain justices on the supreme court at the general election. The current court has hijacked our government.
Corporations are not people. This needs to be explicit in the Constitution. The ruling made by the court current allows unlimited funds to be funneled to any candidate by corporations. This ruling must not stand.
If you were to make these demands your focus I believe a majority of America would get behind it.
I think we should add to this that we need to have a more liberal definition of making change. If a richer person asks a poorer person for change for a $20 bill, for example, a handful of loose change will do...any amount is fine as long as it's under $20. Also, this rule will be fully enforced if the poor person asks the rich person if they need change. The rich one must say yes.
and now people are taking THIS as our actual list of demands and it's hurting us. Way to go.
So what do you suggest censorship?
meh, I was, but I think maybe the admin's note will work now. I know you meant well.
Take off the tinfoil hat, it's restricting the blood flow to your brain.
This is by no means a practical or logical list... This should be taken down and re-established after research. I didn't go to Wall Street to fight for this list of demands! This movement will never be taken seriously if this is the list of demands.
How about:
No corporate influence in politics and elections... States Rights and Laws over universal federal government laws... Strict Accountability in Government and Financial Institutions... No more Military Industrial Complex - exporting weapons and feeding the war machine! Ending the Fed... Closing the Boarders (Why the hell would be open them? What exactly is the logic behind that? A 1/3 of all prison inmates are Illegals that we are paying for with our tax dollars to house and feed!!! - Legal Immigration only! Sound money, backed by gold... No more Foreign Aid until the people are taken care of first! No more Bailouts for too-big to fail banks and corporations! Tax Cuts for Corporations that don't ship jobs over seas
Just a few RATIONAL ideas... We're going to get labeled as left-wing radical Cronies... Free Education?! Come on. That's not practical or American in values. Wipe personal debt clear - What?! People need to learn not to spend outside their means! Just because the financial institutions are corrupt, doesn't mean people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions.
I'm a part of the 99% and I say take this down and reasonably re-establish it to represent the ideas expressed in the Declaration of Occupy Wall St!
OWS has already gone off the rails, worse than the Teabagger party. It needs to be scrapped and restarted from the ground up - this list and the comments on it are prime evidence why.
i had such high hopes for this campaign but this is a farce, that list of demands are too dispersed too long and too difficult to implement, this list of demands will only turn people away from this movement
I much prefer the approach of the specific changes in the Coup Media survey. Those are actionable, avoid class warfare, and right a few wrongs. You need to learn to take baby steps, or you will never have the populace behind you. And if you want changes despite the populace, are you for the people, or a despot yourself?
I m sorry to say but this is very radical, with demands like this unless the whole world stops, these demands will never be met. As much as I would love it if these demands were met, its EXTREMELY unrealistic that this will happen.
Well your already defeated
Why isn't a demand to get out of our illegal wars overseas? Isn't that making the Wall Street tycoons wealthy?
My guess? People realize that unless the military goons actually restart the draft, nobody will really care. The anti-war movement pretty much collapsed when Bush left office.
The costs are now invisible to people who don't: (A)Serve in the military or have friends/family who do, (B)Do the research to see how much it's costing them personally.
(A) doesn't apply to most people and almost nobody makes the effort to do (B).
This is beyond ignorance. A recipe for economic disaster, starvation, and worse.ll Lloyd Hart is an ignorant jackass; these demands will not create any jobs, they will create nothing but chaos and destruction. Then they will try to dominate you politically, but it will be too late. Need an example? Look to Cuba. And then die.
You guys are barking up the wrong tree.
Occupy the Federal Reserve. That's the root of the problem
And no where in your demands - which are too many - do you demand to end the wars.
Ron Paul 2012 if you really want your country back.
While this is a reasonable start, I think my own personal list of what to start off with would look more like these ten points:
Institute living wage minimums per region based on actual realistic calculations of cost of living in a given region. This includes factoring in things like child care costs, transportation costs, and most minimum wage jobs only offering 20-30 hour work weeks.
Replace the multiple confusing welfare, unemployment, and disability systems with a single safety net system calculated on a living wage. It should be open to all unemployed individuals who can show they're either actively looking for work or unable to work. We should make it so that as long as you're sincerely trying to become employed you shouldn't be forced to worry about how to support yourself if you can't get someone to hire you fast enough.
Remove all tax loopholes and deductions, and institute straight-forward progressive tax rates based on income levels. No more tax cuts or evasions for the rich who have a better ability to pay and who often benefit most from the country infrastructure to run their businesses.
Free or heavily-subsidized higher-level education. If a college degree is the new high school diploma, we need to find ways to stop poor people from being locked out of education that can improve their status, and having our new generations of educated workers all entering the workplace saddled with thousands and thousands of dollars of debt.
Fast track programs to develop green, sustainable energy, protect, restore and preserve our environment, and protect our power infrastructure from solar & terrestrial storms and EMP bursts.
Fast track program to bring our water, sewer, transportation, and communications infrastructures fully up-to-date and beyond. Including better and more comprehensive public transportation and full availability of broadband internet.
Institute single-payer healthcare, and work towards streamlining and making more efficient the healthcare system of information and treatment.
Demand that companies pay outsourced employees at the same rate as American employees or better and only do business with suppliers that meet minimum standards for their workers and facilities based on American standards or better, to make outsourcing less profitable/desirable and less abusive of human rights.
Full racial, gender, and religious equality. Including not forcing religious laws and rituals on non-religious people, and not dictating who we're allowed to love and marry.
Fair trade instead of free trade.
End all private contributions to political campaigns.
And soundbite-wise, "No more agendas, give us what works!" about sums up my own feelings on this country. I'm sick and tired of all the ideological BS, where we vote for capitalistic things which are ruining our economy, against socialist aspects that are proven to work better than what we have, for denying rights based on 2000-year old mythological books, and against programs which accept human beings are human beings and work with human nature instead of fighting it. It's time the people in charge stopped forcing the world and all of us into how they wish it was, and started dealing with us how we actually are. I want them to stop giving us what they think we need, or think we should have, and start giving us what we actually need and actually should have, based on actual, real-world studies, observations, and figures.
And what about these wars? Wall street and the military industrial complex profit from these wars, which are a product of political corruption.
crickets
What if we start with some easy to understand demands that can be met quickly and then some major system changing demands at the end. For example: (1. Immediate moratorium on all evictions and bail-out direct to threatened home owners.
(2. Cancellation of ALL student loans for any student willing to do two years of Americore / community service type work.
(3. Formation of a New Deal type public works commission to put unemployed people to work building infrastructure.
(4. Open the Medicare/Medicaid programs to anyone who wants them AND allow them to negotiate drug prices like any other insurer.
Within two years:
(5. Modernize our voting system to proportional representation with run off elections for the presidency to break the two party duopoly.
(6. Cap all corporate and private political donations at $5000 and provide federal matching funding for candidates.
(7. Impose term limits on the house and senate.
(8. Roll back the powers of the presidential office to those specified in the constitution, specifically the part that an act of congress is required to go to war.
I'm with you on ending Corporatism, on Auditing the Federal Reserve Bank. I have a lot of respect for the risks and sacrifices people are making out there, but these demands are mostly absurd. Come back when you've learned basic economics and Constitutional Law... I'm afraid this website is merely The State trying to co opt the protests like they did the Tea Parties, and the demands cannot be taken seriously.
All you conservatives are neophytes to basic economics and constitutional law and won't even consider what has worked in other nations.
Lloyd, you are as ignorant as it gets. I'm 14, you may think I'm of much less intelligence than you and I sincerely don't give a shit. I've looked at all of your posts and you clearly take the retard cake for having the stupidest, most liberal bullshit ideology I have ever seen. You're worse than my teachers.
Which countries would that be? Please enlighten us as to where any of your proposals have been successfully implemented WITHOUT causing economic turmoil. Any countries in Europe? How about Asia? South America? Name one country the size of the United States that has done what you propose. And again, I ask a simple question - if I want to work for less than $20/hour can I do so? Can I work in my chosen profession without joining a labor union?
Occupy wall street: "what do we want?" ummm, not sure, we are still working that out, but we demand it! "when do we want it" Ummmm, yesterday, whatever we decide that we want, it's an outrage that it hasn't been legislated into existence yet!
LOL, dude seriously - you haven't the foggiest idea what kind of catastrophic impact we'd see in the economy if your kindergarten mentality demands were enacted, do you?
You mean like catastrophic conditions that exist now thanks to conservative policies that put 43 million below the poverty line and 25 million out of work. I swear to god conservative really means "Support group for the lead poisoned."
[Removed]
[Removed]
[Removed]
This is insane. Minimum wages set by the government stop the creation of jobs. Guaranteed living wage, free college...Nothing is FREE...who is going to pay for your trillion dollar ideas up there?? What you propose is being Robin Hood. At least have the balls to admit what you are implying. DEBT FORGIVENESS??...someone needs an economic education. And why on earth would anyone want to work when you are guaranteed a living wage REGARDLESS OF EMPLOYMENT STATUS?
I encourage everyone to be a Libertarian. This is the only path to happiness for all of us. Seriously.
Are you completely nuts? So the answer is MORE government and LESS personal liberty? Govenrment CAUSED all the problems! This is total lunacy....
Deregulation and corporate greed caused this. Illegal occupations of innocent countries with no way to pay for the abomination caused this. You and I caused this by not voting for politicians that work for US and not the most generous lobbyists. we have a "Govern" ment for a reason. the problem is that our representaives quit representing the people and favor big money. Trickle down economics + human greed = disfunctional economics - i.e.the need for regualtion
Actually, it is over-regulation that caused this, NOT deregulation. Also, there is NO illegal occupation of innocents countries. Although, there are several justified occupations of allied countries that not only asked us to be there but want us to remain there in order to keep the peace, if you will. Get your head out of your rear end, please.
By allowing themselves to be bribed in a system based on bribery? How about the business's that offered the bribes? Do you think government dictates the agenda to business? All empirical evidence suggests that it is the other way around.
is this a real list? .. haha silly fucking liberals
This is a real list submitted by some random person, and made 'official' by the likes of Faux news and Flush Limpballs.
Whoever wrote it up, I hope you're proud of yourself for making us all look like idiots. And you're an idiot.
Wait until we win and you get your annual $100,000 check. You won't be laughing then. I'm buying a jet.
make mine solar powered!!
I know! I seriously do not think a single one of these idiots even has a high-school understanding of economics. A first semester economics major could crush all of these morons in a debate.
Great ideas and if people do not fall in line, we can starve them to death like the USSR did to Ukraine. Then, we can pull them out of their homes who do not fit in and ship them off to the Siberia. After that, we can kill the elite and educated to keep them from influencing the lower classes and causing any type of revolution.
Your just a moron
Not proper usage Lloyd. Not good, not good at all. I believe
"You're", Lloyd. That bothers me...
milions of people would already be starving to death all over the US if it wasnt for food stamps socialism which arent free market thats advocated by the bunch of nutters spamming this forum with their republican government & capitalist suckups ideology.
Socialism is like cancer. Get a little bit, and then it metastasizes.
The socialist programs that the US has instituted created many of these poor people. To reduce the problem of poverty, reduce the amount of socialism.
But Socialists are like alcoholics. They can never say "I've had enough."
so you are saying the poor werent there when social programs were institued? what were they institued for then? oops contradiction. let me tell you the truth about social programs: they are all that stands between the rich and the revolution of the working class and they were installed first back when there were revolutions going on, early 20th century. thats why even smart republicans advocate them and rich guys go like "oh we should pay some more taxes actually" in times of crisis when they never have that thought in times of "boom". its called being scared, and rightfully so.
Socialism is supposed to be like medicine - administered in small, controlled doses. Not downed by the bottle like a gutter-dwelling bum going through cheap wine.
In combination with other things, it helps prevent a 'disease' called "violent revolution", which happens when there are a lot of poor people with absolutely nothing to lose.
Wanna know how that ends? Ask France.
This needs to be removed. This list is ridiculous, childish and smacks of wanting to avoid many of the things we as adults have to accept. It misrepresents the movement.
THIS IS NOT IN ANY WAY AN OFFICIAL REPRESENTATION OF OWS.
But many people outside of the movement are reading it as such. It's absolutely disturbing that we're being presented like this.
What a great idea censorship
Come back when you actually know what censorship is, pothead.
Who is going to pay for all of this? Free living wage regardless of employment? Who is going to work to pay for the rest of this stuff? You know when people say, "the government pays" that really means that you and I pay with our taxes. So you're basically asking for a monumental tax increase on everyone while stripping away their rights to choose.
Free living wage...and we all get to live in FEMA trailers, eat government cheese, beans, rice and bread...forget about eating out or going to McDs for a quick meal or going to the movies, those are not necessities, those are luxuries. Phones? Only to dial 911. Cars? What do you need a car for? You're getting everything provided that you "need".
You all need to be VERY careful what you're asking for.
Now, you may think that it's good that people can't eat at McDs or drive a car or whatever else you don't like but remember, when you allow the government to start making choices for people, eventually they are going to make YOUR choices, too. And you will not like that.
I encourage anyone who supports this to talk to people who have actually lived under Communism. I don't know a soul who liked it.
These leftists and the banksters they are protesting actually are both globalists pushing the same ultimate agenda, viz. more government power and less liberty for everyone. Don't let them fool you. Advocates of centralized power have been using this Dialectical process for many years: 1) Create situation; 2) Create opposition to situation; 3) Create new "solution" to benefit the centralizers.
Thus making the protesters useful idiots.
"Maybe I'm an idiot. But at least I'm a useful one!"
and you libertarians are paranoid
I hope that the majority of people involved in this movement are more intelligent than this list of demands would indicate. This list would ruin the country you are trying to fix. I'm no economist, but some of these policies, like the open borders with a country that has actively enabled the trafficking of people, drugs, and violence across our border, and wage standards that would put a significant number of small businesses out of commission while you limit the amount of goods available for sale by imposing huge tariffs...I'm just not following the logic.... It was a lack of regulation of big businesses coupled with- dare I say it- irresponsible individual decisions (basically greed) that caused these problems, and it seems to me that the best way to fix the problem is to deal with these issues directly.
Also, I don't believe that it is possible to legislate morality, so, while it is admirable to want to put some of these social issues on the agenda, they will ultimately only be solved by people making decisions- right decisions- day by day, moment by moment. If enough people woke up every morning with a firm commitment that their actions that day would leave the world a better place than they found it, that would change things. Until that happens, then the best we can really do is to try to keep the playing field more fair and even for all the players (from a regulatory standpoint, not a socialist one).
Thanks so much for throwing away my support for your cause. Your list is ridiculous and if you think you have listed the desires of the 99% of Americans ... how sad. America wants jobs and an end to corporate manipulations. Think before you turn your cause into a joke! Broad based support requires more then dreaming up a list that won't draw support from more then a few friends.
What part don't you like?
The parts that make about as much sense as a soup sandwich, probably.
Let me summarize this as best I can.
LETS JUST PRINT MORE MONEY! TURN THE AMERICAN DOLLAR INTO MONOPOLY MONEY OVER NIGHT, I MEAN IT'S NOT LIKE IT'S ALREADY DOING BAD! WHILE WERE AT IT! LETS MAKE THIS LAND FREE GAME FOR THE MEXICAN CARTELS! THEY CAN SURELY HELP US REPLANT FORESTS SO ALL MY LITTLE FOREST FRIENDS CAN BE HAPPY AND WE CAN ALL LIVE IN PEACE!
Do you people even understand the concept of money? If they just make enough to do all of this, inflation will be unbelievable. Where are these trillions of dollars going to come from? How will companies all be able to afford $20/hr wages? It sounds like this movement wants to abolish the idea of currency in general and just make everything free for everyone ever. This cannot possibly work.
Also, I see that you resort to deleting comments that you don't like. Keep living in a fantasy world where any of this is a good idea and no one disagrees.
The list of demands is making me think twice about the movement. I now fear it has been infiltrated and may be getting corrupted. Maybe I'm just being skeptical...then again, maybe not.
This forum is just that a free and open forum to express ideas
Check this out and follow the link after the edit
These are the demands
http://occupywallst.org/forum/first-official-release-from-occupy-wall-street/
Thank you! I was afraid this was going to be the official list. Sorry for the confusion. Peace & Love
To many demands, and most unsustainable. I think we should be a group of people, who otherwise might not mix, but are united under a common cause; to stop the corporate take over of our government, and return it to the people of the United States of America. That any further attempts to corrupt our political system will be viewed as treason. We are not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution.
Lots of people want to join the cause be this is simply unachievable. Support will flow in across the nation if you guys can get real about a single demand. Like, for instance, a ban on corporate lobbying and campaign contributions as this can only breed corruption. And then you systematically achieve each of your other demands through the process of democracy, and if they don't show real intent to change, you march again. Thanks to those who are sacrificing their time and even their freedom to make a difference for all Americans. Get unified and this could really go somewhere!
Excellent demand.! let get a petition started and get this put into a bill and get it on the table. I believe we have to have 25,000 signatures to get it to the white house. Let do it Please.
This list is ridiculous for both for it's omissions and it's focus.
"Open borders" is the only demand that is mentioned twice. Why?
"Open borders" is not a priority in the minds of most Americans, even on the left. There are a myriad of issues that need to be extinguished before most of these demands are met, most of all "open borders", which is a non-issue as far as the well-being of the people of our country is concerned.
Why no focus on banking or the federal reserve? Why no focus on prosecuting bankers? Why no focus on questionable war and international intervention? Why no focus on illegal detention? Why no focus on military spending? Why no focus on remediation of the bought and paid for media? Why no focus on the prison industry? Why no focus on corruption in general? Why no focus on our corrupted representative democracy, wherein there is almost no truly meaningful political difference between democrats and republicans? Why no demand for the people's right to referendum (you know, a real democracy)? Why no focus on corporate political donations? Why no focus on the fact that AIPAC isn't a registered foreign entity? Why no focus on the fake revolutions that drag this country into war or supporting war? Why no focus on health care? Why no focus on torture? Why no focus on the patriot act? Why no focus on the tax structure (instead of the current focus an a bunch of 'gimmee' demands from the tax base)?
This list of demands reads as some kids private fantasy agenda, taking into account only the fact that he or she needs money, hates debt, and wants to speed up the flow of immigration into this country, which is a racist agenda.
News to all of the "minimum income" advocates: you fail spectacularly at economics. Listen, if you raise the income of everyone to a minimum, the prices on EVERYTHING will rise to make that minimum the new de-facto "one dollar". Prices are an entirely relative concept. That is, anything with value adjusts to be priced at where supply and demand deems. If you raise demand by giving everyone a minimum income, the price of everything adjusts perfectly to that new demand. Therefore, you will realize zero increase in purchasing power with your new "minimum income". Housing, food, and prices on everything else would adjust flawlessly, just like they did when women decided to go to work. Now, instead of families enjoying "extra" income from two working partners, it is now de-facto required that two partners work to meet the same standard of living that the family previously enjoyed when only one partner worked. The prices of food, housing, and everything else rose perfectly to meet the increased demand from a two income household that represented the average new baseline minimum income. All that was accomplished was taking the choice away from women to stay home. Now, they HAVE to work in most families.
If you outlaw credit reporting, forget anyone ever giving a loan again. Good luck, lower class, pulling yourselves out of poverty without a loan. Because it's so easy to save your weekly paycheck. No credit reporting + unknown risk = no loans ever OR loans only at the highest rate legally possible to mitigate risk. Look for illegal, kneecap busting loan-sharks to pop up everywhere, and increasingly be the populaces only option. Even revolutionaries can take responsibility for rational borrowing and credit score management. It's not that hard. I'm dirt poor (a student) but have good credit because I don't borrow more than I can repay. I live poor because I am poor, but I avoid debt and bad credit. My mind will eventually give me a decent income, and then I will be able to afford more - again, without taking on an irresponsible level of debt. If you a re afraid of credit reporting, then the problem lies with you. Yes, the job market also has much to do with it, but even still the problem nor the solution doesn't lie within consumer credit reporting.
In reality, this list is an "open borders minority rights" list thinly veiled with a hodge-podge of poorly thought out demands thrown in to mix it up. As a white man, I can assure you that minorities and women get priority hire over me already, and get accepted to University programs as a priority over my demographic. The laws overwhelmingly favor you already, and so don't worry about your amendment. Just study and present yourself well. They are begging for you if you can truly do this, trust me. Lest your real agenda is to completely eliminate meritocracy or to further discriminate against my demographic (which you already do). His/her thinly veiled hate for white men, which exist in large amounts in this country and most of whom are poor or lower-middle class, and suffer just as much as anyone else, is palpable. ENOUGH SPECIAL INTEREST AGENDAS! Get the bullshit out of the Occupy movement and lobby for changes that will make a real, permanent difference. You need to start with the money supply and end with the lack of inherent structural integrity in our easily corruptable form of government See my list above.
first demand... an immediate end to any and every form of captivity on earth.
second demand... the dismantling or destruction of all weapons, and instruments of violence.
third demand... free passage for all, removal of every border, boundary or territory.
fourth demand... liquidation of all corporate entities, financial institutions and global banks.
fifth demand... redistribution of wealth hoarded by religious organisations, monarchy and aristocracy.
sixth demand... direction of all defence, military and police agencies towards public welfare, disaster management and social service.
seventh demand... any governance is only, to ensure universal health care, housing, sanitation, water, waste and food management.
You DO realize, don't you, that these demands amount to abolishing private property and establishing a totalitarian Communist dictatorship, similar to North Korea. You see how that's working out for them.
These demands only demonstrate the inadequacy of OWS to bring about progressive fair changes within Society (...be it the American One or elsewhere) in an effective manner without being the final impetus to the total economic disaster that is now on America's doorstep. They lack foresight into the reality, which now exists; and further, into the 'Reality' of their opposition. Without the later 'foresight', no one can do more or less than create disasters at extremely damaging levels. OWS shouts out 'World Change and Revolution'. Obviously they are not monitoring the ending results in Egypt, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and other countries, in which the White House has created major damages in all sectors and ares of Life; or, the revolters have done so themselves. Egypt is now under a military state, which is demonstrating its posiution to command. Libya is facing internal divisions among the tribes who fought together for power; and further, like the others listed, their homes, schools, hospitals, factories, businesses large and smalle are noticeably destroyed. In brief, bombs or bad demands can, and will, accomplish the same end.
There is no possible way that the demands being presented by OWS can be put into effect without total collapse of both the American and International Economical system(s). This collapses on the OWSers and everyone else that lives in a so-called democratic, or not, nation. Those living in Thrid World Countries would be doomed to total abandonment and death at the hands of those whose weapon was 'lack of foresight' (of either the Global Sitruation and/or the Reality of their opposition: political, industrial-commercial, and religious empires that have been constructed into Humanity's Foundations over hundreds of years of power and wealth seekeng and implementation).
“Wake up America!” must be followed-up with a Hot Coffee and Breakfast with the fiollowing ingredients: Intelligence, Logic, Wisdom, Truth, Compassion, Love, and Organization. The later, must be implemented via an internal system, which can grow in a parallel manner with those systems now in place. An internal system, which, in fact and with wisdom, can grow as a seed within the mighty pyramid (existing structure) peacefully, strongly, wisely, effectively, and rationally, in a manner in which 100% of America > around the World's Populations < can, in fact, begin to prosper independently of the establishment's mind-games and controls. A seed, which can penetrate the fortress wall's crevices and defects causing them to fall behind the newly blossomed leaves and flowers of the endless plant or vine that evolves form that 'Seed'.
The above, allows normalcy within the lives of individuals, families, and communities at local,national, and international levels; thus, permitting a reduction of economic stress and the opportunity to concentrate on managing the White Houses at international levels. Other benefits: living Life instead of suriving as a slave within the system, which has been intentionally created; being able to relax and concentrate on Life's True Values and Qualities at individual and international humanitarian levels; regeneration of Natural Abilities and Capabilities at physical and mental levels by cleaning-up life-supporting environments; and, the Greatest Advantage is arriving at a point when 'Each of Everyone' can focus on True Being and Unity on this Planet and within Our Universes. In other words Individual and World Peace within our physical Beings and Our Nations of Peoples.
So much is being said in these times about “The American Dream!”. Let me tell you something: A “dream” exists only because the dreamer does not have the courage to turn it into a decision; or, trhey just don't believe in it as being a Reality, which is achievable. It is Time! > To stop dreaming and start building with bricks, of solid decisions, manufactured by intelligent analysis of the existing structure; and, remodelling it with wise, and courageous steel beams architectured with Peace and Logic, while living in a 'New Normalcy' of regenerating True Life into living. No interruptions are necessary: home life, work, study, cultural, fraternal, humanitarian, or other! There is no need to be in the streets! More can be done by phone, fax, and the internet! And, in the end: Who are those in the streets? Who is 'OWS'?
You all should occupy Cuba, this sounds like a communistic society to me.
These demands are ridiculous. Instead of occupy wallstreet lets tax them. I would like to see a sales tax on every stock trade. This would eliminate high speed stock trading and bring revenue to the government to solve our budget issues. Please support my petition by passing it along or signing ( http://wh.gov/DOw ).
You have officially wasted my time.
You should have two IMPORTANT demands to start with. For instance - get rid of lobbyists (they rule the Government) and stop the GOP from changing ID rules for voting...every American has the right to vote and ANY legitimate means of ID should suffice. After you get those things, move on to two more.
Demands to who? Congress? The GOP is the PROBLEM.....get rid of them and then a discussion can evolve about ideas. Please OWSers help us old liberals get rid of the GOP. sign up with the Dems. Your message needs to be oustGOP, republicans are the cause of the divide between 99-1%.
Many of you voted for Obama then opted out in the midterms and that has been costly for us.
20$ an hour, c'mon...the problem is not in the numbers!!! The problem is in the "how and why" of things. The market is built to encourage profit while ignoring environmental issues and human rights. We are expunging the Earth, and there is no balance.
We need a system that encourages minimum natural resource utilization as a principle metric for determining corporate performance. EPS (earnings per share) cannot continue to be the only metric that is important for success of any venture.
Secondly, certain Domestic Business (Business's that depend on their geographical location for their cash flows) would be taxed. Massively. Free-Corporations (Business that can operate anywhere; ie head offices) would never be taxed (0% free-corp tax rate)
And to finalize everything. Money Creation must be given to the people. The people and Businesses and government would create the money supply as they consume. Limits of consumption would be governed, yet prices would move constantly and regularly as the money supply expands and contracts.
OccupyYourLives https://www.facebook.com/pages/OccupyYourLives/295709083794484?sk=wall
You realize that if you forgive all debt globally, you will no longer have the ability to access credit markets. Good luck getting a home loan, perhaps you plan on upgrading your tent ?
Fixed Loans, with 2% no requirement to qualify. Universal Health Care. Monthly Incentives for every one to live on. New political Party. People Democratic Party Outlaw all credit reporting agency. Jail Terms for politician. Drop Support for ISRAEL. SAVE MONEY 10billions which america pays yearly.
"Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now."
Too bad the Obamacrats took the $800 billion (nearly a trillion) in a so-called stimulus package 2 years ago and only $48 billion went towards infrastructure. The rest was in political paybacks for each senators/congressmen's district for such worthy stimulus and job-creating projects such as home heating assistance, after school programs, refilling food banks, etc. 5% -- that's it!
Here's my proposed list of demands:
okay, a start. like, start high if you know you're about to haggle! ;)
Looks like some of these demands may be in the "too hard to do" box while others are not thought out well. If we forgive all debt, what happens to the owners of that debt and their stockholders, many of whom may be planning retirement on the concept that their investment will pay off as planned vice being flushed down the toilet becasue someone else wants a free ride. Not saying there aren't things to fix though. Check out http://www.thomhartmann.com/users/jim-blalock/blog/2011/11/occupy-wallstreet-demands-some-recommendations.
This is not the list of demands from occupy wall street but froom one attention hungry person and this is not legit. Lloyd J Hart is a fucking dumbass
this "Revolution" movement what ever is ridiculous from the stand point of how it is being done. If you really want to stop people and get noticed you need to shut down the Arteries of the country. You should have been blocking Major highways and toll roads not this shit. The only way you are going to get a real "revolution" started is by bringing the country to a grinding halt and effecting every single person in the country. If you you can't accomplish that then just stop now. Also give up on demands because you are not in any position to demand anything. The country is still moving regardless of what your doing. Do it rite !
Seriously? Why is there no official site? Who the hell is Lloyd Hart and what does he have to do with anything?
Sadly, unlike any US historical protests, this one seems woefully disjointed. There is no rally point for the average american joe to stand behind.
Women's right to vote? A leader, a message, and clearly defined solution.
Racial Equality? A leader, a message, and clearly defined solution.
Women's equality? A leader, a message, and clearly defined solution.
60's peace movement? A leader, a message, and clearly defined solution.
Occupy Wall Street? Nothing.
You people need to have real and cohesive goals, otherwise this is just a freak show. No one really knows what you stand for and the media is spreading lies about this movement. Repeat a lie often enough, it will become the truth.
As long as stock income is taxed at a lower rate than other income corporations and individuals with money will invest in stocks rather than invest in expanding productions. The taxes should be less on the gains of employee based revenues for companies not the other way around. Also does anyone know if there are regulations for companies to denote what part of their profit comes from to sale of stocks and what part comes from actual product or can companies mislead people by showing stock profits as company profits?
We have had a fair number of those demands meet in the EU decades ago. Others like open borders exist within the EU but not for those outside it except when seeking asylum .
Debt forgiveness for Joe Soap doesn't look to be on the cards but our governments are forcing the rogue banks to be adaptable and keep foreclosures to the minimum. With me for example they have agreed for me just to pay the interest on my mortgage and so keep a roof over my families head. So basically there is little in that list which is beyond the bounds of possibility - at least not in countries where valuing societies is appreciated above individualism and every man for himself.
one of the dumbest things ive read
If there is no real list of demands, what are you protesting exactly? The world would like to know...
On which planet would this work? And what kind of jobs will these policies create. Right off the bat you're talking about decimating the health care insurance industry. Gee that's only a million jobs lost right there. You forgot to demand that we let all of the criminals go free because its not fair for them to be locked up.
And by the way, If you forgive all my debts and mortgage, then I have no reason to go to work. I just don't see how this would work.
This is pure infantile wishful thinking insanity. Just to take the first demand: raise the minimum wage to $20 per hour. Mr. Hart obviously believes that employers have an unlimited supply of money, and it is only because of "greedy" and "mean-spirited" selfishness that some employers pay less than $20 per hour. OK, since employers do NOT have unlimited piles of cash, but instead get whatever money they have from CUSTOMERS who buy an employer's products or services, how much will a hamburger at McDonald's have to cost in order to pay the inexperienced and low skill teen who works there $20 per hour? Will the cost of the hamburger rise to $7, $10? At that price, will McDonalds sell fewer hamburgers (and need fewer workers)? Isn't an arbitrary minimum wage of $20 an hour (why not $35 per hour?) going to result in more people making ZERO rather than $20 per hour? The problem with idealistic and unrealistic demands like these is that they are very superficial in their "thinking" and have ZERO understanding of the "other side" of the equation and the negative consequences (unintended, no doubt) if a demand was actually met.
Why would you want to even want to go to college if everyone was going to make $20.00 an hour. What would be the point. CRAZY-
what a moron! what happened to working for a living and getting what you earn? i work two jobs, go to school, have 2 kids, husband....busy busy life....and i am sick of seeing people take our hard earned money that the government gives them to spend on 3 buggies full of groceries that contain slabs of ribs, chips, sodas-just to name a few and we have to watch every penny we spend and i can't remember the last time we bought ribs!!!!!! my oldest son was handicapped-never walked, talked held his head up, nothing! and we could not even get government assistance for him! what the heck is this nation coming to? Work for your living people! my, oh my, what happened to America?
Really, I mean really!?! Where does it say that an American does not have to take responsibility for their actions? Foreclosure is a terrible thing, but maybe one should buy a house that they can afford instead of keeping up with the Joneses. If one does not feel they should pay back their debts, then don't open up a line of credit. Demand 9 is absolutely ridiculous! Ask those in border towns how their lives have been affected by the violence that the drug trade has brought in. Minimum wage at $20 an hour? How does one propose that is funded? Get an education and one has the chance to increase their level of pay. My first year out of college didn't provide me with a wage of $20 an hour. I survived! I am for free speech, I am an American! But all the time and effort that is placed on these protests should be placed in finding a job, any job to make ends meet until this mess is cleaned up or learn a trade. Or are you too good for that?
These demands are conflicting, and primarily irrantional. It's easy to make these demands when you were born free in n a free country. How do you think it got that way? How do you think we will manage resources as a nation with open boarders? Determine if you are a viable candidate for a home loan? And nothing is FREE. How will this college education be paid for?
This is a strong list of demands and I am happy they are focused on economic inequality. Some people are upset that they are focused on the state, but it is the only entity that can be utilized to bring about widespread change. If we don't use it, the reactionaries will continue to use it as a weapon against us. We should resist any sort of traditional political campaigning or single issue legislative work. Independence is key. These demands are not crazy, naive or anything of the sort. Free college Ed? Single Payer healthcare? Hardly. These are not even radical demands. The money for public works? How much was spent on the last two military adventures: 3 to 4 trillion!!!
Lets focus on campaign finance reform and infrastructure, mabye even education reform. Theses thing have the support of the majority of americans. I mean are you trying to marginalize this movement or what. How the f* is the government going to pay people not to work? Alittle ridiculous no? Don't jeopardize this movement by alienating it from the broader society. Once your politicians are listening again you can ask for what you want but lets end the corruption first.
Lets focus on campaign finance reform and infrastructure, mabye even education reform. Theses thing have the support of the majority of americans. I mean are you trying to marginalize this movement or what. How the f* is the government going to pay people not to work? Alittle ridiculous no? Don't jeopardize this movement by alienating it from the broader society. Once your politicians are listening again you can ask for what you want but lets end the corruption first.
Lets focus on campaign finance reform and infrastructure, mabye even education reform. Theses thing have the support of the majority of americans. I mean are you trying to marginalize this movement or what. How the f* is the government going to pay people not to work? Alittle ridiculous no? Don't jeopardize this movement by alienating it from the broader society. Once your politicians are listening again you can ask for what you want but lets end the corruption first.
demand 14: Give everyone infinity jillion dollars, because all the meanies are hoarding it all.
demand 15: Have all the children of the world join hands and sing in perfect harmony.
Demand #1 – High tariffs will destroy our ability to trade with other countries. Also, $20/hr minimum wage is absurd. Learn some economics.
Demand #2 – Insurers don't provide healthcare. Doctors do, and you don't have the right to control everything they do.
Demand #3 – You act like it's a human right without any argument.
Demand #4 – Also absurd. Learn some economics.
Demand #5 – This is actually reasonable.
Demand #6 – Sure, I'll just grab that spare trillion I had sitting in the corner.
Demand #7 – See #6.
Demand #8 – Been there, done that. See the Civil Rights Movement.
Demand #9 – Those laws were put in place for a reason. Open-door policies just aren't sensical anymore. There are too many risks involved. I'm all for making it easier to come here, but come on. Get real, man.
Demand #10 – This makes some sense.
Demand #11 – This would cause the world economy to collapse. Again, learn some economics.
Demand #12 – Yes, blend the public and private sector even more. The closer the two get, the more allies politicians will find in big business.
Demand #13 – This doesn't seem like it would change much.
Seriously. Go out and do some research, Lloyd. Do you even have a degree?
Wow! There are too many demands! A lot of them are implausible as well. Demands 1-3 seem very possible. All the rest seem extremely implausible. I may be black but number 8 seems like a stretch. It seems as if it was just tacked on along with a lot of the others. I would just say, take it slow and go with 1-3. Those are the big (very possible) ticket items right there. If you do not keep this demand list short, no will be no demands met or compromised!
REMOVE THIS PAGE IF IT IS NOT AGREED UPON BY OCCUPY WALL ST. THIS IS A BAD REPRESENTATION OF WHO WE ARE.
The only demand that should be here is 1! GET CORPORATE MONEY OUT OF THE GOVERNMENT! GET CORPORATE MONEY OUT OF THE GOVERNMENT!
This alone will bring an equal government for ALL people through sensible bills and policy and government spending. THUS ENDING OUR ECONOMIC DOWNFALL!
We must demand this and an overview of all past bills to eliminate corporate bought exemptions and policies!
end corporate personhood? anyone?
Demand 11: LOL, getting rid of debt means getting rid of money and yet this still speaks monetary terms with every other demand.
It is more than apparent, Lloyd J Hart's mommy, forgot to give him his meds when he wrote this. Would someone please go ring Lloyd's mommy and ask her to do so before he sucks the nail off his thumb and chokes on it? Good lord, where the hell were you people educated anyway. Have you zero shame for exposing your dumbness like this?
It is more than apparent, Lloyd J Hart's mommy, forgot to give him his meds when he wrote this. Would someone please go ring Lloyd's mommy and ask her to do so before he sucks the nail off his thumb and chokes on it? Good lord, where the hell were you people educated anyway. Have you zero shame for exposing your dumbness like this?
I am a mechanic and aint no politician but I can tell you one thing. I really have hope for this movement, but there is a couple of things that people need to get straight, there needs to be a list of demands that is more realistic and still respects the constitution and the same time can bring actual change to "We" the people. Stuff like "Open borders", "Free college", "All loan forgiveness" is fucking ridiculous. Stuff like that is giving a bad name to the movement. This hole county depends on Popular opinion. People are not gonna go for shit like that, and if you aint got the support of the people than you aint got shit. We need stuff like tarrifs on chinese goods,we need to stop the corp. from being able to buy the congress, fine the anyone who hires illegals ( the problem is the exploiter not the exploited) stop the wars and we need to have a different policy on foreign policy, environment and alternative energy, a lot of other things will fall in line. Shit like this you can sell to the masses, but not asking for handouts and "Open borders".
You forgot two things...1) Elimination of all taxes...Federal,State and Local...on the interest paid out on the trust funds set up for the white kids "occupying" Wall Street 2) One trillion dollars (per year) to provide flea powder and free marijuana for those very same white,trust-funded protesters.
You should insist on the 28th amemdment!!
You should insist on the 28th amemdment!!
What the biggest travesty is that, assuming this person is at least 18, they're allowed to vote. What a MORON. I assume you think money just comes from printing presses, and they should just print it and hand it out. Psssst....there is no tooth fairy or Santa Claus. Sorry to ruin that for you too.
Sorry but these demands are utterly absurd and would literally destroy the country. Where on earth do you propose the funding comes from for the trillions you want to pour into infrastructure, ecological restoration and free education for example? You fools clearly lack even the most basic knowledge of economics and budgetary process.
These people are ignorant they have no understanding about how things work. Occupy Wall Street is in a fantasy land.
Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live. No Borders = No USA = No Country
One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.
Free college education. -NO... I don't want to be paying more taxes. If you want free education live some place else.
Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment -NO... You should have to work for what you make if you provide equal money to all levels of employment or unemployment if everyone was unemployed who is paying the bills.... answer = NO ONE!
Without reading through this HUGE list of comments (my point being, perhaps someone has already pointed this out), I'd like to point out the paragraph at the very top of the page--which perhaps needs to be in larger, bolder font, which reads:
"Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands."
Obviously, this list does not reflect all (or in my opinion even a significant portion) of the 99% demands.
http://youtu.be/o__P63hcSCQ If you are REALLY ready for change, for Revolution of our country, your Vote is your best weapon. VOTE IN THE PRIMARIES. PLEASE watch and remember that if you want change QUIT VOTING FOR THE SAME FLIP FLOPPERS AND Get RON PAUL Elected! 2012
IMO this should be taken down. It is, as you note, not the actual demands and the media is treating it as such. Just get rid of it. It's a misrepresentation of the movement.
The idea of a demand committee is not bad but I suggest a basic List of Principles to start. That would be a recognition of common ground that would serve as a basis for creating an inclusive vision statement.
If just one or two of these demands were met, it would totally collapse the US financial system, no question about it. It would only guarantee everyone (including the OWS useful idiots) would face a much harder reality than they face now.
And one more thing, how would you reconcile this serious contradiction;
"Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same [time] bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand."
vs.
"Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants."
These two demands completely work in opposition to each other. It would essentially be limiting us to using ethanol, wind, hydro, and solar energy sources. This would result in the entire decimation of the forest, wild-life, and inland waterway ecologies... and it would still not meet all the huge energy demands of the US.
Please people, put down the bong pipe long enough to realize that all these demands completely defy all logic.
lol
lol
I like a lot of these actually, except for a few that are ridiculous (like #11). Thank God this isn't an official list. OWS would look insane.
If you add the demand that any woman under the age of thirty who weighs less than 150 lbs and is at least a double D whom I proposition MUST agree to have hot monkey sex with me in the back seat of my car, then I AM WITH YOU GUYS 1000%!!! Long live the revolution!
Occupy Chicago's list of demands is much better at addressing the root cause of the above list.
Pass a bill to reinstate Glass-Steagall, a safeguard separating banks' commercial lending and investment operations. "Its repeal in 1999 is considered the major cause of the global financial meltdown of 2008-09," the group states.
Repeal Bush-era tax cuts.
Prosecute "the Wall Street criminals who clearly broke the law and helped cause the 2008 financial crisis."
Overturn a 2010 Supreme Court decision that allows corporations "to contribute unlimited amounts of money to campaigns."
Pass the Warren Buffett rule on fair taxation, close corporate tax loopholes, prohibit hiding funds offshore.
Give the Securities and Exchange Commission stricter regulatory power, strengthen the Consumer Protection Bureau and help victims of predatory lending whose home loans have been foreclosed.
Take steps to limit the influence of lobbyists and eliminate the practice of lobbyists writing legislation.
Eliminate (the) right of former government regulators to work for corporations or industries they once regulated.
Eliminate corporate personhood.
Insist that the Federal Elections Commission "ensure that political candidates are given equal time for free at reasonable intervals during campaign season."
Pass the Fair Elections Now Act.
Forgive student debt.
Where are your facts that these will create "so many" jobs? It's nice that you can talk but if you have nothing to back it up then it's invalid. What you are demanding will further bankrupt the US. I mean really, free college education? Look at Europe, they can't afford to give free education because they're too busy going down financially thanks to so many social programs. If people actually could tell the difference between capitalism and corporatism then you protesters would probably be better off. All I get of out of this is that you want a socialist economy and "I wants".
DId this guy take HS economics? This would cause a collapse of the entire economy and EVERYONE would be poor. This list would effectively help the unproductive people in society who could just rack up debt and never have to pay it, or live off the government!
These demands are all over the place, and some of them are clearly impossible (open borders migration???) and many have nothing to do with the economic crisis created by Wall Street and the banks that have been gambling with OUR money (READ this article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sen-ted-kaufman/the-volcker-rule-and-occu_b_1016053.html?ref=occupy-wall-street).
A MUCH more appropriate list is being compiled here: http://occupywallstreetblog.wordpress.com/demands/
What are the chances this guy is a communist? Living wage income regardless of employment? So we can pay all the bums who choose not to help us form a productive society. Wipe all debt off the books? How is anyone supposed to make money on selling homes?
lol
A far better list is at: http://rodgermmitchell.wordpress.com/2011/10/12/5163/ Rodger Malcolm Mitchell
A far better list is at: http://rodgermmitchell.wordpress.com/2011/10/12/5163/
Rodger Malcolm Mitchell
Well, I just wanted to leave a comment and offer an opinion of a 24 year old american with 2 years of college and some work experience.
Have you guys ever noticed how short the attention span is of most Americans? We have seemed to forget that a significant amount of our politicians are being backed by these big corporations in election campaigns and such, so inevitably, their policies are going to sway toward these companies. I know that its a very barbaric comparison but in college sports, they have managed a way to keep athletes from receiving any endorsements or any kind of funding from anyone. Why can we not do the same to politicians? Why should their opinions be allowed to be swayed by those that can offer the most money? Like I said, it's barbaric but the policy is not unheard of.
People keep raving about not being able to find a job out of college. Honestly, that is mostly your fault. Just because you went to a college, sat in a desk, and got a 2.3 average does not qualify you to be a significant asset to any company once you get out. There are plenty of interns proving themselves to big time companies by working their butts off everyday and still keeping up with their school work. These companies are happy to hire the ones that worked for them for practically nothing while they were in college. Also, you cannot get a degree in underwater basket weaving and expect to find a decent job. Just because you have a degree doesn't make you smart. Having a degree in a demanding job field makes you smart. Knowing what jobs are marketable and what the demand is, that's smart. Too many people in this country are self entitled and they want everything their way or no way. "I want to live close to my parents. I want to do what I want to do. I want to be a family man." If you are wanting to make a lot of money in this country then those are all contradicting ideas. You see, if everyone accepted that you are going to have to work really hard your whole life and one day die, then maybe we could get ourselves out of this mess or maybe we would see that we aren't in as big of a mess as we think. Unfortunately, it's not popular for a politician to stand on a stage, while talking to the American people, and tell them that they are responsible for their own actions. That a lot of the job decreases and their misfortune is because they are lazy, unwilling to put forth effort, easily defeated, or unwilling to adapt to the world around them. You cannot be a family man and make millions. You can try but unless you strike gold, it's not going to happen. You cannot get high and drunk throughout your 4 years of college while studying economics and come out with a $80k a year job. Life isn't always fair but you have to make it work to your advantage. You may actually have to sacrifice some things but the sooner you come to realize that, the better.
Outlaw credit agencies, aye? I'm sure that would be great for you, but, you see, I have been financially responsible every since I was 18. I have been paying my debts on time and not letting my debt to income ratio getting anywhere near close to 1/1. I don't have to get a new car every 3 years. And I didn't have a car over $15,000 until I was 23. I paid all my debts and I kept emergency money in the bank. Crazy ideology, huh? I have no clue as to why someone would save money to have at least an 8 month safety net. Craziness I tell you. So, with that being said, NO! You will not take my good credit and wipe it clean. Unlike you, I have worked my ass off to keep mine in good standing. But I do appreciate the offer.
My name is Ryan Farmer and I am a United States Soldier. I do what I do, not because it is easy, but because I know that I must sacrifice for my family to be successful. I love my freedom, I love my country, and I love my family and I am willing to fight for it all. What are you fighting for?
The protestors or whatever they call themselves are peeing up a rope. The problem with our country doesn’t start with the bank or Wall Street? Like everything else it starts with the politicians that make the rules for the banks, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mack, the Post Office, Medicare, Medicaid and the like. Until the political process in this country is reformed, we’ll continue to have the rich and famous rule and that is they want to become is more rich and famous. Until it is not profitable to work for “We the Peoples”, the politicians will continue to rape and plunder the rest of us. They make the rules and enforce them. We sit around waiting on the next election to save us—don’t hold your breath. All the next election does is replace one set of Moonbats with another and the process goes on. Until we get some teeth in our efforts and get reasonable with our demands, nothing is going to change. Of recent memory is Scott Brown. Oh he was suppose to be a mover and shaker. Have you heard from him since he got elected? Not a word that I’ve seen on the budget and debt crisis. I think he’s being fitted for his Moonbat suit. Reform must start at the top, after all they work for us. Why should they vote on their own pay raise? That’s a joke. I believe the only ones that vote NO are the ones coming up for election NEXT. Why should they run their own ethics investigation? That’s like letting the fox guard the hen house. Until we get smart and do something with it, we are gonna continue to be their puppet on a string and be jerked around till earth’s end. Think about it, a healthcare reform bill no one read until it was passed if then. We should have been up in arms when we discovered they were passing bills no one had read. Yet, we sat around on our duff waiting on someone else to take care of our business, and they did. Until reform starts at the top, we’re wasting our time. Congressional Reform Act of 2011
No Tenure / No Pension. Congressmen collect a salary while in off ice and receive no pay when they are out of office.
Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security. All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.
Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.
Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.
Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.
Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.
All contracts with past and present Congressmen are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen. Congress men made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.
How about this idea?
Step One..... Quit bitching and moaning. Get a job. Learn something about rendering a service for which people are willing to pay money. invest in your own education and your own future. Discover how to do something unique. Invent something cool new like Mr. Jobs did, or find someone like this who you would like to work for. With these brilliant ideas in hand , learn how to start a company. Learn how to put a business plan together. Get financing from private investors and maybe even one of those scary mean bankers. Work 80 hours a week until your dream is off the ground. One day, hire thousands of workers and pay them $20.00, and yes, maybe even $200 dollars an hour. Offer these workers great benefits like almost free health care, and ways to share you profit ( there's that evil word). Decide to make things that do no harm to the environment. Give as much of your wealth, now that you have some, back to the causes you think need them the most. Start a foundation for a just cause and be the voice for a people who have no voice. Mentor young people on what success looks like. Be happy, content, fulfilled, excited about the future.
Steo Two.....Demand excellence from your self, and those you chose to work with. Demand of yourself, that every thing you do and your company does is guided by principles that are honorable, fair, and just. Demand of yourself that you live each day with a heart filled with gratitude for the success you have been able to enjoy. Demand that you never again expect something else, or someone else make you feel worth while, accepted, appreciated or happy.
Step Three.....Mentor young people about what success looks like. Help them learn how to be happy, content, fulfilled, excited about the future.
Or you can.....
Keep Raging against some unknown machine. Think up 13 new demands to add to the list of the existing 13 demands that are being taken so seriously by.... just who again? Be a perpetual Arab Spring groupie. Stand in line and wait for "Wall Street Writes a Check to Their Favorite Protester Day". Or just enjoy the energy rush that comes from always being angry, bitter and jaded.
Or....when you decide this Occupation thing is not what you thought it was cracked up to be....when you are tired of being stuck in that %99 category you invented ( You know that idea is really just kookie marketing...you really think that people believe that only one person in a hundred is happy with their life in the US? We would need to build allot more bridges for people to jump off of ) If you really are ready for your own personal revolution...
Please refer to Step One.
The protestors or whatever they call themselves are peeing up a rope. The problem with our country doesn’t start with the bank or Wall Street? Like everything else it starts with the politicians that make the rules for the banks, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mack, the Post Office, Medicare, Medicaid and the like. Until the political process in this country is reformed, we’ll continue to have the rich and famous rule and that is they want to become is more rich and famous. Until it is not profitable to work for “We the Peoples”, the politicians will continue to rape and plunder the rest of us. They make the rules and enforce them. We sit around waiting on the next election to save us—don’t hold your breath. All the next election does is replace one set of Moonbats with another and the process goes on. Until we get some teeth in our efforts and get reasonable with our demands, nothing is going to change. Of recent memory is Scott Brown. Oh he was suppose to be a mover and shaker. Have you heard from him since he got elected? Not a word that I’ve seen on the budget and debt crisis. I think he’s being fitted for his Moonbat suit. Reform must start at the top, after all they work for us. Why should they vote on their own pay raise? That’s a joke. I believe the only ones that vote NO are the ones coming up for election NEXT. Why should they run their own ethics investigation? That’s like letting the fox guard the hen house. Until we get smart and do something with it, we are gonna continue to be their puppet on a string and be jerked around till earth’s end. Think about it, a healthcare reform bill no one read until it was passed if then. We should have been up in arms when we discovered they were passing bills no one had read. Yet, we sat around on our duff waiting on someone else to take care of our business, and they did. Until reform starts at the top, we’re wasting our time. Congressional Reform Act of 2011
No Tenure / No Pension. Congressmen collect a salary while in off ice and receive no pay when they are out of office.
Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security. All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.
Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.
Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.
Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.
Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.
All contracts with past and present Congressmen are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen. Congress men made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.
The protestors or whatever they call themselves are peeing up a rope. The problem with our country doesn’t start with the bank or Wall Street? Like everything else it starts with the politicians that make the rules for the banks, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mack, the Post Office, Medicare, Medicaid and the like. Until the political process in this country is reformed, we’ll continue to have the rich and famous rule and that is they want to become is more rich and famous. Until it is not profitable to work for “We the Peoples”, the politicians will continue to rape and plunder the rest of us. They make the rules and enforce them. We sit around waiting on the next election to save us—don’t hold your breath. All the next election does is replace one set of Moonbats with another and the process goes on. Until we get some teeth in our efforts and get reasonable with our demands, nothing is going to change. Of recent memory is Scott Brown. Oh he was suppose to be a mover and shaker. Have you heard from him since he got elected? Not a word that I’ve seen on the budget and debt crisis. I think he’s being fitted for his Moonbat suit. Reform must start at the top, after all they work for us. Why should they vote on their own pay raise? That’s a joke. I believe the only ones that vote NO are the ones coming up for election NEXT. Why should they run their own ethics investigation? That’s like letting the fox guard the hen house. Until we get smart and do something with it, we are gonna continue to be their puppet on a string and be jerked around till earth’s end. Think about it, a healthcare reform bill no one read until it was passed if then. We should have been up in arms when we discovered they were passing bills no one had read. Yet, we sat around on our duff waiting on someone else to take care of our business, and they did. Until reform starts at the top, we’re wasting our time. Congressional Reform Act of 2011
No Tenure / No Pension. Congressmen collect a salary while in off ice and receive no pay when they are out of office.
Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security. All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.
Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.
Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.
Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.
Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.
All contracts with past and present Congressmen are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen. Congress men made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.
Part of Purpose of Occupy
It is because of corps and biz today's world live for consumerism. Once global economy is fixed, the global focus should be advancing purposeful techs and programs to preserve humanity such as space programs etc . Therefore, the "laser-like focus" should be for progressive Science- it is our duty to preserve human race and to flourish by working together to solve many problems that occur today.
Better than so-called real ones if you ask me
Positive lending practices:
The goal of lending institutions should be to help people buy their homes and start small businesses, and not to create huge returns for stock holders! These banks and lending institutions are propped up by the tax payers and central banks. They make risky bets. When they win we the people get nothing. When they lose we are required to bail them out. The banks hold OUR MONEY! We want a say in how they use it! We want lending practices changed to support our goals, which clearly stated are to help working people buy their homes and to start and grow small to medium size businesses.
Vigorous Investigation and Prosecution of the Criminals While the global economic crisis was caused be the fundamental flaws of capitalism our current crisis was set of by a confederation of conspiracies-to-get-rich. Investment banks colluded with ratings agencies to create complex financial products they knew would fail, swindling pension funds into buying them, and then betting against their own financial products. A generation lost their life savings and the culprits still have their money! We want the criminals’ prosecuted and the stolen returned to the pension funds.
On Demand #1, a call to end free trade is unrealistic, it is not something we can all agree on, and it hurts some while helping others. Lets not forget our movement is global now! What we should advocate is fair trade.
Free trade is not enough! We the people demand fairness from our trading partners. Emerging economies, like China, utilize child and slave labor, outlaw organized labor, refuse to pay for intellectual property, and keep their currencies artificially low. We the people demand that International institutions and sovereign trade policies must require that all nations benefiting from free trade must adhere to a common set of values, which include the right for labor to organize, child labor laws, floating currency evaluation, paying for intellectual property, and a minimum wage.
So let me get this straight. If I just committed financial suicide by getting a million dollar mortgage when I work at McDonalds and I'm about to default, I now own the house outright, plus the maserati in my driveway that I can't afford, plus my racked up visa card? Plus I now get $20/hour at my job. This sounds like a great idea! So then if I sell my house for a million dollars, does the next person get the same deal? Or do they have to come up with the money? This ridiculous list of demands erodes the credibility of the whole movement. I am all for financial reform, but gimmee a break here. Maybe we should ask for things that could actually happen or make sense if we want results.
What about cuts to the $1.2 TRILLION annual "defense" budget? That's got to be on my list. And MAJOR cuts, in the 70 - 85% range. That money could fund many needs at home, including infrastructure repair, college education, and healthcare for all. I don't agree with open borders. No nation in the world has open borders. It is not realistic or necessary, nor will it garner much support.
Interesting! I am not going to comment about the feasibility of the demands and will acknowledge they form a starting point of a discussion and debate (with skilled moderation, of course). Just as a suggestion, in essence some of the demands are global in nature and seen from a purely economic point of view are intricately related with economic and political trends throughout the world - just domestic American populism cannot change the picture. Secondly, it may be wishful to demand an economic system to change without realizing lifestyle practices to be in tandem with the world's average. The 99% is desirous of luxury and wasteful spending habits just like the 1% - they just cannot afford that. Please consider this. An average American spends roughly 18,000 watts of energy (annual average and considering both direct and embedded forms) where as the world average is roughly 2000 watts. It is also to time to think if such high disparity is lifestyle (which is certainly linked with economy) is sustainable. I hold American enterprise and freedom in high regard. So, I hope they will not back out from asking the first questions first.
Short demand or instruction .DEFEAT CORPORATE PUPPETS!
This looks like something written by a PoliSci major. I hate to say it, but an openly Marxist PoliSci major.
Here's why:
1 is absurd. $20/hr minimum wage would F up so much. If min wage jumps up, people will be laid off.
2 is strange. Not really sensical.
3, Living wage income, paid by whom?
4, Free college, paid by whom? There would be mass layoffs at all universities, quality of education would plummet, and HS students would need to apply to a 'lottery' to get selected for schools. Free = stupid.
5 is silly. We can't manifest a "fast track program" to overcome technical impossibilities.
6 is overeager. Don't spend money that will not generate returns! $1tril is a bit much for a net loss.
7, Idyllic, but silly. Pass restrictions and let nature restore herself for 30 years. No need to impose.
8, Racial/gender rights? WTF does that even mean? We are all entitled to the same rights, with only one exception. Affirmative action needs to be thrown out. THEN we would be equal.
9, Open borders is stupid, too. It would normalize wages globally, and that would drop standard of living for everyone. It would collapse every modern economy in 5 years (infinite workforce means decreased wage).
Demand #10 sounds good. First one.
11 is lunacy.
12, we need credit reporting agencies. They serve a purpose.
13, wtf is he talking about? Unions choke companies and industries.
Following these demands would collapse everything everywhere at once.
Our single general demand: "No taxation without representation."
Our government does not represent the wishes, feelings, or culture of the American people. They are not our representatives.
This movement must not end. It cannot end. Failure means death for millions. We cannot fail.
1-Require the immediate return of all bailout capital, and use it to pay off all civilian debts, even if at deep discount.
2-Expand antitrust laws to include any single company that makes more than 2.5% of the US Government's one-year revenue for three consecutive years. (~$112bil/yr)
3-Designate lobbying and filibustering as forms of treason.
4-Limit congressional appointments to 2 terms.
5-End both wars, redeploy all US troops as humanitarian aid for the next 3 years.
6-Establish a flat tax with no exceptions, all people and corporations taxed evenly.
7-Increase public education salaries by 50%, double the budget for teachers nationally.
8-Invest Gov't funds ($bil) into Venture Capital firms in the nation.
9-End all non-essential subsidies; Outlaw all GM foods & terminator seeds.
10-Restrict profits on all medical services & products. Subsidize all of it for everyone, immediately.
1-Paying off civilian debts will free up spending money to cover living expenses. The bailout money would end up in the same place, but no one would be paying interest on it. This also frees loan capital for new credit.
2-Breaking up conglomerates will produce more mid-management and upper-management jobs, as well as increase competition, increase supply-chain diversity, increase product selection – All of which helps stimulate economic growth. Any company that generates that much revenue exists as a threat to our sovereignty. We cannot permit our nation to persist as a puppet government.
3-Lobbying is thinly veiled bribery, filibustering is a means of stymieing the legislative process. Both should be obvious to anyone as violations of due process, attempts to subvert the legal system against the tenets of our great nation.
4-Professional politicians ruined Rome. They have ruined America. We need a constant stream of new blood in congress to prevent
5-Ending both wars will relieve our national debt fears, and sending them to perform humanitarian aid will show the world that Americans do have souls.
6-A flat tax for all people and corporations would make our national tax revenue explode, even with a tax rate below what the non-rich already pay.
7-Enhancing public education salaries and budgets would allow for more teachers to be hired, meaning more college grads are employed everywhere, and they get paid enough to live on.
8-Venture Capital funds invest in startups and small businesses, which account for the vast majority of companies in the US and produce many, many jobs. The returns on these investments will provide additional revenue, perhaps even enough to save Social Security.
9-Subsidies drain the gov't, GM food causes a whole host of direct environmental problems and indirect health dangers, and terminator seeds harm farmers.
10-Restrict profits on medical services and products, healthcare costs will plummet, making government-subsidized healthcare a feasible option.
Congratulation on your Iserbyt Award, for excellence in fringe, crackpot ideology.
Demand fourteen: Everyone gets one rainbow, a giant lollipop and a unicorn. Demand fifteen: We abolish the US dollar and use hugs and smiles as a medium of monetary exchange. Demand Sixteen: everyone gets infinity money for being true to themselves. I think these addtional demands will solve all the world's issues and result in worldwide peace and love. spirit love to eveyone..
Demand fourteen: Everyone gets one rainbow, a giant lollipop and a unicorn. Demand fifteen: We abolish the US dollar and use hugs and smiles as a medium of monetary exchange. Demand Sixteen: everyone gets infinity money for being true to themselves. I think these addtional demands will solve all the world's issues and result in worldwide peace and love. spirit love to eveyone..
American industry has been the powerhouse of the world since WWII, and I agree it has faltered due to government regulation and idiotic policy making; however, guaranteeing a living wage income for all regardless of employment will completely destroy American industry by eliminating any incentive to work in turn making the demand for free college pointless because if there's no incentive to work because the government is paying you just because you're guaranteed a living wage, how many people will actually attend college?
Interesting article - the Proposed List of Demands had me laughing on some points. But I have to admit, 4 out of the 11 of the "ideas" could possibly help. Only parts of each of the suggestions I agree with and make sense to me the the other parts are just silly. Of course, demanding isn't the way to ask or suggest anything. Maybe this person should change that word to...ideas?? I enjoyed reading what everyone's opinions on this were. Here are my opinions on these matters: I agree that an increase in minimum wage is necessary and should go up, however, $20 is very steep. How does anyone, let alone a family survive on minimum wage when the cost of living has gone up? It makes sense that if gas, dairy, bread, food etc. goes up, so should wages to compensate for this. Then again, that wouldn't be "compensation", that would be "breaking even" enough just to make ends meet the same way before prices of "basic necessities" or as they are now considered "luxuries" were raised. I think this person is on to something when they said Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. What I think would work better is to make the prices/fees affordable and the same for everybody. There are people paying outrageously high amounts of money ie; the self-employed. Making it affordable would certainly benefit the elderly. We are all aware that they are having a hard enough time making ends meet and it's usually the medications that take the back burner in the scope of finances. Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment - it already exists - with an expiration date. In the off chance that you happen to find yourself unemployed or can't seem to find a job in this economy for whatever miscellaneous reason(s), it's called Unemployment Benefits, although Employment is the only real benefit. There is also Transitional Assistance, which helps provide cash and/or food benefits to families with children, elders and disabled. Many are the working poor with limited income or those who are temporarily unemployed.
Free College Education - They should have elaborated more...I believe that already exists. Maybe not completely "free" but there is some form of financial aid to make it more affordable. Whether it be need-based, merit-based in the form of federal, state or college-based assistance. Racial and gender equal rights amendment. I know it would only be speculation but what do you suppose they meant by this? Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. This makes sense but isn't ever going to happen. Not even through bankruptcy. The only loophole in that one is death. I'm guessing they think everyone should be entitled to a "bail out" also. Which would go hand in hand with their suggested Outlaw all credit reporting agencies. The world doesn't work like that. Unfortunately, the economy revolves around credit, our credit revolves around our credit scores which revolve around the credit reporting agencies. So good luck on that one.
I see a lot of issues welling to the surface and that is a good thing. Energy costs is one of the very most important issues facing our nation. Pollution comes into focus as the two go hand in hand. What caused the nuclear incidents? Corruption and cutting corners. Nuclear energy is actually the cleanest and most viable resource we have at this point. I'm not happy with that but its the truth. Coal...what about the TVA slug spill and the destruction of Appalachia? Oil...Yellowstone River, Prince William Sound, and the giant deadzone in the Gulf of Mexico. Alternative energies are important and Big Oil and Coal are running a smear campaign of Epic proportions to stop the progress. They drop the price of oil when green starts to run. It will be decades before solar is cheaper than nuclear, or is it? The problem is the clean up afterwards. 100 million gallons of contaminated waste water and 30,000 tons of spent fuel rods laying around everywhere. This amount climbs by about 3000 tons per year. Two companies USEC and Areva enrich uranium with no plans to recycle. I say BS. One company already has a 2 billion dollar loan guarantee from the DOE the other is trying. They have produced the technology to process it at a 95 percent reduction in cost. Scientists created this beast now its time to fix it. Both companies should be made to come up with pilot programs to recycle and reduce this waste as much as possible in order to get these loans. Nuclear is clean, the waste is not. You want more financial burden drop nuclear energy. Until you can get solar down to 7 cents a watt...get my drift. Its time the government cleaned up by creating new technologies to re-use or neutralize this waste. Solar will advance but it will take decades. Geothermal is good too but there is very limited well sites. The EPA is one thing that should not be allowed to fail in this country and the DOE needs to manage its resources better.
You are delusional. Free college? Debt forgiveness? Open borders? Free money? $20 minimum wage? (why do you need a minimum wage with income regardless of employment??
Why not demand unicorns and flying puppies? You need an adjustment in your meds.
Any new policy should involve negotiation. Any negotiation requires opinions.
We should have a disability access liberty agenda: for all society; for OccupyWallStreet; for OccupyTogether; for the meetup website.
Abolish electoral college.
Abolish corporate personhood.
Be an abolitionist.
DonFphrnqTaub Persina
Hey Lloyd, why not print a million dollars for every person in the country and then everyone will be rich! Is this Lloyd from Dumb and Dumber?
Demand One is in direct contradiction to Demand Nine. Having trade tariffs means in a sense closing borders, and having free labor migration means opening borders. In a sense what you're asking is to collect all the wealth of the world: be able to make money all over the world, and be able to trade with the world while making the most profit. So, do you want to have closed borders or open borders? You have to choose, you physically can't get both.
TheBlackPaper http://pastebin.com/4jLQkqG8 http://i54.twitgoo.com/34ijo8l.jpg
WANTED Individuals to Introduce State Ballot Measures
Tax the Rich Secede from the Union Abolish Federal Reserve Legalize Industrial Hemp Water & Resource Protection Outlaw Marcellus Shale Drilling Ban the Sale and Growth of GMO Crops Required Yearly Increase of State Minimum Wage Public Health Care & Abolishment of Social Security Constitutional Amendment for Fair & Equal Marriage Act Constitutional Amendment to Abolish Controlled Substance Laws Food Labeling Laws to Require Labeling of GMO & Animal Products Creation of Electromagnetic Radiation Refugee Zones Free of Wireless Technology
HEREBY Request public assistance and immediate formation of Points Of Change:
OrganizeNow: Utilize technology. Organize locally. Form local councils & state militias.
FinanceNow: File Bankruptcy. Open credit cards, lines of credit, loans. Form Corporations.
BillThemNow: Search and Click Sponsored Results. Pay bills in small increments.
TurnOutTheLights: Turn off main household circuit breaker for at least 1 hour at 4:20 AM/PM.
DrugWarFightsBack: Immediate mass public action to combat controlled substance laws.
Apply Within Always Surf Anonymously (torproject.org) Be Peace – Be Love – Be the Change
I read this with an open mind, not knowing what exactly these people were protesting. After reading I can only come to the conclusion that these people obviously didn't take advantage of the "FREE" (tax payer paid for) education through high school. Seriously, free college. I can think of sooo many reasons why that alone is a dumb idea. as well as the get rid of debt, all debt. HAHAHA. seriously people. maybe you should use all this free time and go get a job and start paying taxes.
please turn this around and put up a real focused list. Up this anti by a few notches and add some dimension and intelligence now - need to improve on the overall plan for what you have accomplished is first step - now design and produce an effective plan to manipulate change - you guys have only just begun - to finish you need organization and structure to come into play.
I would prioritize these demands and some are very unimportant at this point in time where others are extremely important right now. 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 13 do now. 9 is detrimental. 11 and 12 are great but a pipe dream. 8 is good but will take a while. 7 while important is not as immediately crucial as the 1 trillion in infrastructure spending.
You might consider a Democracy Amendment to the Constitution that outlaws corporate participation in politics, that defines "person" as a human being alone (not corporations), and that entitles political participation by persons alone, that bans all private contributions to political campaigns, that institutes publicly financed elections universally, that mandates press coverage of all political debates, that reinstates the press as a public trust to be used for the public good, that assures worker rights in the workplace, and that bans monopoly capitalism.
Most of these are great, particularly the top few. I think this movement is wonderful and I'm so glad to see that so many people are supporting this and feel as I do about the government, country, etc.
I don't agree with eliminating all dept or credit agencies. This will just allow people to take advantage of the system, and be unfair to those who worked through college to pay for it vs. those who just took loans and want an easy way to not pay it back.
VIII. Equality for the American Worker A. Corporations and the American Worker – At NO point in time should an American-based company’s employee base EVER be enlisted with greater than 50% of NON-Citizen workers. There can be a mixture of Temporary Residents with PROPER permits; however this number can NEVER be EQUAL to, or GREATER than 50% of the Corporation’s total number of Employees.
B. American Worker Acquisition act – If there is an opening within an American-based Company and that company chooses to fill the position with an American Worker(American Citizen), then there should be a Tax Allowance for said company for whatever additional cost the company may have absorbed for the employee’s acquisition.
IX. NON-American Worker Socio-Economics and Employment A. Money Transfer Surcharges – There should be the creation of Government-imposed surcharge(to increase programmatically) of ALL money Transfers originating within the U.S. and terminating outside of the U.S. This Surcharge would be imposed upon the Third Party Entity at the source(i.e. Western Union, Money Gram, etc.) and should be encouraged to be passed on the customers. B. Money Transfer Surcharges Exemptions – There should be the allowance of exemptions made if the money is being transferred from one American-based location to another outside of the U.S. provided it is owned by an American-based company.(i.e. from one bank within the U.S. to another outside of the U.S.)
X. Banking Institutions Restitutions to the American People A. Ideas anyone…
Email: isc1970@yahoo.com
IV. College Education A. Corporate Chosen-Government Backed, Tuition Assistance Program – To reconnect corporations to the “grass roots” American Student/Employee/Prospect there should be the Creation of a new Tuition Assistance Program that would allow “Qualified” companies to canvass, court, be reimbursed for travel compensation associated thereof, and even reimbursed paid internship of “Qualified” college students. These should be students at least in second-year or further and considering a career in the same industry as the company. B. Corporate Contributions – Companies that choose to contribute to the above-mentioned Program should be given Tax Allowance considerations for their Good-Will and contributions. These considerations should be directly proportionate to the size of their contributions up to a certain amount in a Three-year period.
V. Energy Options A. This should NOT be a topic discussed in this Manifesto as it in itself would require its own no doubt LENGTHY proposal.
VI. Budget Increase A. Again this is not a topic that should be included in this document.
VII. Ecology Budget Appropriations A. This should NOT be a topic discussed in this Manifesto, as it does nothing but serve to Distract from the Focus of THIS conversation.
II. HealthCare A. Government Privatized HealthCare Oversight Agency – EVERY American should have access to fair and decent Medical treatment, surgeries-no matter how Preventative or Invasive, medicines, alternative procedures, etc. And to Insure this happens, there should come to pass the creation of a new Government Sponsored(preferably Federal AND State, as this would help with Logistics and Fluidity in time management) Healthcare Oversight Agency. This Agency would respond to, investigate, adjudicate, and represent if necessary any Citizen that felt as though they had legitimate grievance with said HealthCare Provider, be it a Private or Public Institution. B. Medical Facilities Draw Fund – To assist and with Medical Institutions undoubtedly increased cost due to the compliance of Policies from the formation of this new Agency, there should be the creation and allowance of a Government backed NON-repayable Fund for the Facilities Operations. However in order to access this Fund the Facility among other requirements MUST be able to show the following:
III. Guaranteed Wages A. There should be NO changes or modifications to the existing Wage/Unemployment claim system in place now.
Mr Hart, your seriousness and passion should only be taken one way: that the war on the middleclass and the casualties inflicted thereof have finally struck a chord in the American people. And while I applaud your courage, I must admonish your list of demands, or at least your reasoning behind the GOAL(s) of this list. It would seem that these demands are exactly that, demands. Traditionally demands are made from a Victorious side in a conflict, and imposed unto one or more defeated parties. Well Mr Hart the “movement” has just started to receive national attention, think of it more as a BIRTH than a Victory…in other words the battle has JUST STARTED. However I do not believe that a “battle” should be NOT our first option, but rather viewed as a consequence of a failed negotiation. Why the very word Democracy implies Negotiation, and as I previously mentioned there is very little room for negotiation in the term “Demand”. However having worked extensively for Fortune 500 companies in my career I would recall what one Senior Partner told me that I feel is appropriate for this situation. Having reviewed internal processes of the company and finding the flaws in them, I brought these to his attention feeling so very accomplished indeed. Before I could leave his office however he said to me, “Cliff…what good is this?? So, you told me what’s wrong…but you didn’t tell me how to FIX it!” Well I never forgot that moment and I shall try in Ernest to do the same for your(our) manifesto. Again Mr Hart please remember my friend that this is done in the very spirit of Democracy and negotiation, and as such is MEANT for critiquing and debate. However I simply hope it can perhaps serve as a suitable base-line for our cause. By the way, feel free to contact me as i have included my email at the end of this thread so that I can tell you a little as to why I am so motivated to your cause(our ) on a personal level. Shall we begin, and for simplicity I have included my Manifesto in Outline form addressing your original line items in my own.
Manifesto of Establishment of the General Majority(because after all, that’s what we are):
I. Restoration and Protection of the Domestic Worker A. Tariffs – Since there is an allowance for tariffs within the guidelines of the WTO membership, congress should adopt and enforce these for ALL imported NON-defensive market products. B. Tariff Import Exemption – To encourage the RE-migration of the current trend of companies relocating facilities outside of the U.S.(due to higher profit potential), an exemption should be created which would allow any company to claim exempt status to these new Tariffs if they currently own, have owned(within a certain time frame), or have proposed a VIABLE business plan to own facilities located within the United States. As this would help to offset any of the additional expenses or even loss of sales from line I. A. Dually it would also help open additional dialogue at least of these new facilities creating jobs within the U.S. C. Minimum Wage Increases – To increase the minimum wage drastically would DIS-courage the very idea of companies both Domestic and Foreign re-migrating back to the U.S. There should be no drastic or immediate increase on minimum wage, or at least be not the focus of this conversation.
I was a sympathizer until I read this... this is some dumb shit.
Lloyd, I think it was well thought out and I'm hoping those 1 percenters realize that a 2 class system of, the rich and those that serve the rich, will always have the same end result.
I can't really agree with forgiving all debt (especially the foreign debt the Republicans ran up over the last 30 years) and the debt of those irresponsible persons that just cannot help themselves to have the latest crap or gizmo or model vehicle, or those that decided to live well beyond their means when purchasing a home. I suggest we force those Lenders to refinance every one of those home loans at 1 percent interest rate over a 40 or 50 year term. I belive that would lower the monthly payments enough that a responsible person working 40 hours a week can afford. For those who could show that they were able to make their monthly payments and subsequently lost their job should be given debt deferrment until a job can be found or provided under a major government bail out / jobs program (at least $10 trillion) of the people. Those that sill cannot afford those terms probably should not have purchased a home in the first place.
I think the rich will never voluntarily agree to being fairly taxed which should be at around 75% rate. I foresee the Forbes' list of the richest 500 Americans eventually becoming a "hit list".
I think those responsible for the collapse of the world economies should be arrested and all of their assets seized and returned to the treasury.
Finally, I think Obama/Biden should resign as president/vice president and Alan Greyson/Dennis Kucinich should be appointed for the next 8 years to undo every peice of legislation enacted under Bush/ Cheney, every appointment terminated (including those to the supreme court), and an immediate end to war and occupation of foreign nations. Finally, Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and the rest of the Bush/Cheney bunch should be tried for war crimes and hung with the same rope they used on Saddam.
Occupy should be focusing on the core of the problem which is how money is created (debt based economy) and the relationship between the Fed and the US Treasury. This is where reform should be focused. A place to start would be to study what happened when Lincoln proposed the Greenback. Until the way the economy is structured is changed and we do away with debt-based economy, those who control the money system will syphon off the resources that really belong to the people.
Read Web of Debt by Ellen Brown to start. SO IMPORTANT.
Here's one demand I think would solve a lot of problems: Publicly funded elections. Get the money out of the electoral system. Set up a system where each candidate is allotted the same amount of money to spend in the campaigns -- no donations accepted from any person or company, and no personal funding of one's own campaign is allowed. No cash, gifts, or lunches, etc. may be accepted. Debates on public airwaves for all the candidates. Candidates can stop the fund raising madness, focus on legislating, and they will only be beholden to their constituents -- not their wealthiest donors.
I think all of these are great!!! How has it taken so long for the voice of reason and equality to be heard in this country? While I think all of these are obviously great and would drastically have a positive effect on the nation I feel like a few were omitted. Please allow me the honor to share this great forum with you and add to the list: 14) The "1 percent" or wealthiest Americans be forced to pay reperations to ALL other classes of US Citizens in an amount deemed apropriate by the federal government and all taxes moving forward, to make up for their exploitation of workers and shady business dealings. The other 99 percent of the population will no longer pay taxes of any kind. 15) If you agree with that or any of the other 13 demands that you be immediately admitted to the nearest mental or substance abuse facility in your area free of charge because you are clinically ill. Seriously, did these "demands" look more reasonable on your mom's basement computer monitor as they were being typed amidst a plume of weed smoke? I hope you get the Cheetos cleaned off of your fingers long enough to type a response. If it is anything near the caliber of your previous work I'm sure we're all in for a real for a real treat...And why did you set your sights so low on the new minimum wage? The Burger King fry guy isn't worth a penny less to me than a Neurosurgeon....you really need to get your priorities in line, I'm sure they were deeply saddened by a measly 20 bucks an hour...
Sorry I forgot one my apologies... 16) Medical prostitution. If we can get the rest of this done than this one will be a piece of cake. It's not like any members of Congress to disagree with this one...Does anyone happen to have Bill Clinton or Al Gore's email addresses? I think they would be great advocates for this movement...How could Al possibly disagree with hookers curing glaucoma rather than the ganja, think about how much ozone we will save? I think we've stumbled on to something great here folks...
Demand Number 1 should be... Public Funding Only of Campaigns!!!
If you eliminate all debt, then what about the people who had lent the money? What are they gonna do? If this were to pass, would you please lend me some money right before all debt is wiped out? Who's gonna pay for the living wage income so you don't have to work?
I want to take a moment and thank everyone for adding their comments to this thread and making it a viable online debate forum and exchange for ideas related to these proposed demands. I also want to thank Rush Limbaugh, Fox news and hundreds of conservative web sites and blogs for rallying opposition to these proposed demands giving those of that us that support these proposed demands a vigorous debate to sharpen our teeth on.
Since Rush Limbaugh, Fox news and the hundreds of conservative web sites and blogs began their onslaught of this page I have received hundreds of phone calls, most filled with hate and dismissal but some I am glad to say from polite and respectful conservatives that simply wanted to go more deeply into the thinking behind these demands. One very respectful conversation I had was with economics students over a speaker phone at George Mason university that went on for nearly three hours. There have been dozens of phone calls with folks that showed their respect but respectfully disagreed and there have been phone calls where there has been some agreement on one or several of the demands. The most agreement from seemingly conservative callers I was able to glean was on raising tariffs on all goods imported into the US to create jobs in America.
Even though it got hard for my wife and I to listen to all the hate and vitriol in most of the calls it was worth it to talk with those seemly conservative individuals that treated us with respect and allowed me to explain why I whole heartedly support these demands.
We get very emotional about money especially when we don't have it because money has become the central source of our main instinctual drives for food, shelter and sex. Until we grasp what it is that has us upset we will continue to over react and miss opportunities to come to agreement to stabilize the supply of our basic human needs as a species living in an environment that has limited resources.
Regardless of your political leaning I want to thank you all for participating in this thread and the debate that has ensued.
We all want the same things, food, shelter and sex. So lets try to find some common ground to stabilize the supply of our basic human needs without completely destroying the thin mist of life on this planet.
All heart felt love to you all.
Lloyd J Hart
This is completely ridiculous! Who will pay for the "living wage" to all, even to those who are not working??? The people who decide that the living wage is not enough so they work to earn more but will have to pay more taxes to support those who don't feel like working?? Insanity!
Free college education? For real? How will you get teachers to teach for free? Oh wait, someone has to pay them right...let's see...the working people who pay taxes???? hmmmm. Unbelievable!
Debt forgiveness to all? Are you serious? If all debt is wiped clean then obtaining credit will be eliminated since it will be WORTHLESS...so people will only be able to pay for what they can afford immediately. I.E. nobody will be able to afford homes, cars, etc. Ridiculous!
Open Borders??? Really? I'm laughing so hard right now!!! This one is so unrealistic that I won't even waste my breath. Hahahahahaha!
Wow. The last line is proof of your ignorance. You should be embarrassed.
While I agree with the protest, most of these demands have nothing to do with the concept of the movement and you will not gain momentum through these demands but rather alienate the movement.
I have a very good idea of what demands should be to match the core belief of the movement, which is to return the country to a democracy rule and not a corporation rule.
Lloyd, we should talk
That's just retarded.
In Portland, OR. We are struggling with a focus (as you seem to be as well). We all have reasons to march, and occupy. There is a loooooong list of reasons. But it is important for the movement to at least have a short list of "demands" which may differ in length from what it is our party stands for.
ONE DEMAND ONLY! And this one will happen.
We want : William K Black
8) Meh, can't complain about that, though this problem isn't to such a degree that it is still harming the US. It's too ambiguous for my tastes, maybe be more specific.
9) ... Nice theory, but that's a door that once you open you can't close nor control what flows in and out of your countries. This will only make things such as illegal trading in things such as human trafficking and drugs simpler and would cause far more problems than it would bring benefit to people.
10) ??? Okay umm.... I don't know how intricately that part of the system works but this just seems to be thrown in there for kicks and giggles. I'd say our election process is fairly solid for a country of 300 million people, mistakes happen, nothing is perfect.
11) ROFLLLLL, OMG are you serious? In what world with this happen? The worlds entire economy would crumble into anarchy if you people were given rule of it. DO you people understand how this world works? Clearly not based on this demand. Striking debt clear would cause multiple economies in many of the worlds countries to utterly collapse. I don't get what this opinion of debt seems to be that it's terrible for everything, right now, yes I do agree that it is out of hand in America in the current economic state as the country is not growing at a quick enough rate to justify it. But when a country's growth surpasses the amount it is repaying in interest, it is gaining positively, and therefore the debt is more than justified, as it has been for many years.
12) ??? So what... you want all the people who can't afford what theyre trying to buy to have a free pass now? Credit reporting agencies keep reckless spending and credit in check by REGULATING who is can feasibly maintain the credit they use. Again, I'm starting to think whoever created these demands must be living in fantasy land.
13) Theoretically, a good idea, but beyond the scope of many unions. Why do you think direct democracy's don't exist? It's for the reason that it is unfeasible for everyone to have a direct say in how things run, which is why Representative act upon their behalf. And also theoretically, you have a union for this reason, to represent you and often times they do this amicably.
I dont know who wrote this, but they clearly are not a bright mind and I would be disgusted if I knew that they were a part of the "leadership" for this occupywhatever stuff.
This is a war that should be fought by intellectuals, people with the capacity to understand how the world functions and how to best fit the roles of the ordinary citizen in them with the current system. It's people like this that make me detest this occupation and why I vehemently refuse to acknowledge these protests as serious.
Thanks for reading haha, I doubt any of you did.
TLDR: This person is either educationally challenged, or living in fantasy land because none of these demands make any sense.
Another Demands Proposal: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/
Check these out before you go:
http://maxkeiser.com/2011/10/08/kr194-keiser-report-price-propaganda/ http://maxkeiser.com/2011/10/09/ote126-on-the-edge-with-david-morgan/
yep, That sound's supper cool!!!!
A demand would be to compel companies to reduce the interest of the arrears in credit cards. But better still would be forgive debt that 77% of the persons have on cards. It would release around 886 billions dollars of financial burden on the family. If you forgive the debt of the professionals who financed their education with credit, it would free other 20 billions.
The first demand discredits the movement. It is a demand discrinatoria, confined to the United States. The economical solution for solving social demands would be to impose a tax on financial transactions and financial institution to the export of capital on the part of the multinational conglomerates. Babylon 9
Demand four: I agree that education should be available to anyone who wants to pursue it, but how does one pay for free college education for everyone? Who will pay the teachers? Buy the library books? Build the dormitories? If every college will be 100% federal government-funded, then the federal government will controlling all of the colleges/universities in the country. I certainly would never agree to that scenario. If they want to help college students, remove the ridiculous profits in the private student loan industry.
Demand five: This is pie-in-the-sky stuff unless the government is willing to release all of its black-ops technology where it is alleged that free energy like Mr. Fusion does exist. Assuming that free energy does not exist yet, then there is no way to transition out of fossil fuels without decimating the economy. Further, the so-called "green energy" push by the government is a scam as evidenced by the recent political scandal in the solar energy industry. Our current state of technology is not a viable substitute for fossil fuel energy. It may make someone feel good to drive a Prius, but what happens when the world runs out of the rare earth metals needed to construct the battery technology?
Demand six: Where do we get $1,000,000,000,000 from when the country is broke? Should we just print it up on the Federal Reserve printers? Borrow it from China?
Demand seven: As in the previous Demand, where do we get $1,000,000,000,000? I agree on the decommissioning of the nuclear plants, because radiation is a curse on this planet. However, this Demand conflicts with Demand Five, because nuclear is considered alternative energy. Nuclear accounts for 20% of the power in the country. What will be the substitute for nuclear while these power plants are being decommissioned? Further, if you reestablish all wetlands, that means destroying all dams and canals. 6% of US power comes from hydroelectric, so that along with nuclear would wipe 26% of the US electrical power capacity. If you take this Demand into account with Demand Five, we would essentially have to live in the Dark Ages with no fossil fuels, nuclear power, hydroelectric or coal.
Living wage yes! Health care yes! Government subsidized college for everyone, yes, equal rights amendments, yes. Infastructure, yes. Unions, yes.
Living wage regardless of employment. Do you mean type of employment or employment at all? If it means living wage w/o work....so no rewards at all? might want to reconsider that in conjunction with human nature. (tendency to need rewards, like all animals.) Also, all credit forgiveness would be precarious in the same way. We need equality but we also need rewards for responsibility. Free immigration for all might be tough and require a lot of planning.
I suggest collaboration with academics and some sharp lawyer friends / legal strategists to create a plan that might get a second look from our lawmakers.
Best to you, and I support the movement, 85% of the demands here.
The demands listed here are full of lunacy. Who ever drew them up has no basic knowledge of economics, government, or life period. They sound like they want a Utopian society where everything is just catered to them with out recourse of consequences. They sound insane, perhaps they are.
Look at everyone attacking each other over their varied opinions about these demands. STOP going after each other, guys. You know what the 1% want? For us to start disagreeing and dismantle from the inside out.
end the fed, impeach obama for assassinating, wipe ass with patriot act!! these are clear points you must incorporate
Only one thing is needed - a step toward democracy.
It’s Time.
Two hundred thirty-five years ago, monarchs ruled the nations of the world, and the thought of people choosing their leaders was revolutionary. We took that step. We formed a republic and began the great experiment.
Two centuries later, our republic still offers freedoms that motivate people from around the world to come here and make their lives anew. Nevertheless, our system of government is showing signs of age. “Untouchable“ issues like legislators’ salaries and benefits suggest that our elected officials are acting more like an oligarchy of cronies rather than a community of servants. More seriously, the threat of holding government financing hostage to ideological grandstanding suggests that the present system is susceptible to the will of the few, rather than the will of the majority.
I am suggesting a step toward democracy. Specifically, I am proposing that the people assume the power to enact legislation directly by means of a two-thirds majority vote. This proposal is similar to our existing right to amend the Constitution, but I propose that it be applied more widely and more frequently. The two-thirds stipulation is meant to decrease the adoption of frivolous legislation. As a balance to this right, I would propose that the Supreme Court could overrule such legislation by a vote of two-thirds of the justices.
I believe such power would rejuvenate our political process in several ways. First, the people would have the direct power to guide our nation, addressing untouchable or politically sensitive issues. Secondly, the threat of popular control should help focus our elected officials on problem-solving rather than ideological showmanship – if they can’t solve the problem, the people will. Finally, this direct power should motivate citizens to take a more active interest in political questions – they may have to play the role of final arbiter.
We are no longer in the horse-and-buggy era. We have the technology to present, discuss, and decide issues by national ballot in a matter of a few weeks. The people certainly do not have to decide every little matter that currently comes before our legislators, but we must hold the right to choose our fate when our representatives fail to decide.
Are there risks associated with granting power directly to the people? There most certainly are. There were risks associated with the birth or our republic, but we took those risks and inaugurated a system that has been the envy of people around the world. However, when the system becomes too sclerotic and too self-absorbed to address vital issues by itself, it should be fixed. This is my fix.
It’s time to move forward to democracy.
I support most of these....especially the debt related ones, the fuel crisis related ones, and the ones about voting and counting ballots
This is a complete joke. At least make your demands reasonable instead of laughable to everyone but your inner group of socialists. Have fun doing your protests. You aren't going to see any change, and the uneducated jobless people out in the streets will eventually go home. I agree that something needs to happen, but come on, really?
Too idealistic guaranteed living wage regardless of employment? Not a good idea. Void ALL debt & set min wage as $20/hr, you're asking for life to be EASY We are supposed to be RESPONSIBLE, HARD WORKING individuals earning our livings/lifestyle. We are not asking for a WELFARE COUNTRY. We are asking for economic justice, so that the responsible and hard working folk don't end up being sold out, and check to check, or with foreclosed homes because they've missed one payment & etc.
Demand One: America Would STARVE, We have no Production Industry infrastructure in place. Taxing Imports would be harmful to the global economy.
Demand Two: We have a universal healthcare system Called MEDICAID and MEDICARE check your pay stubs.
Demand Three: It's Called unemployment and welfare, we have it.
Demand Four: People including myself can barely graduate college, now it should be free.
Demand Five: Would again starve the country. Our food is engineered around fossil fuels and until someone creates an efficient cost effective way to use alternative fuels, we are fucked.
Demand Six: I have been up for WEEKS at night listening to the repaving of route 7. 1 Trillion Dollars in stimulus was already spent and approved in the first package.
Demand Seven: We have state owned land and a HUGE federal wetlands program. Very complex storm water management laws in place. I've worked on a bunch. Nuclear power is a safe and effective way of creating energy when done properly.
Demand Eight: Of course racism is the governments fault and has nothing to do with the human mind.
Demand Nine: I do not want people from Quebec taking American Jobs. Sorry.
Demand Ten: Let's get people voting in large numbers before we scrutinize how things are counted. The last election I voted in was on PAPER.
Demand Eleven: Is the most ridiculous and ignorant statement I have ever heard. There would be a civil war due to inflation.
Demand Twelve: Let's just borrow all of the money then never pay it back. Sure.
Demand Thirteen: Unions in general are insignificant and aged. If you don't want to be part of a union, find a job that doesn't require you to have one.
Did big corporations really cause the crisis? Yes they aren't innocent and they created the vehicle for it to be carried out but what about personal responsibility? The CDO and CDS products that cratered balance sheets were based on thousands and thousands of individual home loans that could never be paid off. Why is this never brought up? If you make 40k a year and your banker says he will give you financing for a 1 million dollar home, its his fault if you accept and default? Its the IRRESPONSIBILITY of the 99% (obviously not, but you get the point) that brought us here. Manage your own finances throughout your life in a way that allows you to PAY WHAT YOU OWE.
The heart of the problem america will have to battle is that the citizens of this country now believe "healthcare" and "owning a home" should be fundamentally provided to all people instead of being earned. Make no mistake, if we think just because we are a wealthy nation that we can provide for everyone we will quickly become greece, italy, spain, etc. and that is no exaggeration.
Full disclosure - I'm currently a college student with student loans but that does not warp me into believing that wall street is the heart of all evil.
The core of the protest for me is: "Our" dreams have been killed: our collective dream of what America should be and how we wanted to live our lives. Wall Street and our government have had a big hand in screwing things up.
What I demand is:
1) LESS entitlement for ANYBODY -- rich or poor
2) responsible regulation -- not regulation that helps one group or industry over another (this includes but is not limited to: reducing/eliminating artificial barriers to entry in markets, reducing/eliminating tariffs and subsidies that economically don't work and have never worked)
3) THE ELIMINATION OF CORPORATE PERSONHOOD
4) personal accountability specifically of CEO's, politicians and those on welfare and anyone else that is benefiting from money they HAVE NOT earned
5) NO WARS against anyone at home or abroad that does not directly threaten our liberties
I WANT A FREE NATION THAT ENCOURAGES FREE TRADE, PEACE, LIBERTY FOR ALL AND ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY.
Lloyd:
Disturbing lack of focus. The movement has to have simple objectives which concentrate on the real problem.
The root of the problem is Congress. It starts with the need to finance electoral campaigns. It costs about $3 million for a seat in the House of Representatives and about $6 million for a seat in the Senate. The next presidential campaign will cost $2 billion. The majority of this money, is not provided by the average voter. Rather it is provided by organizations, businesses, and well-heeled individuals. All of whom are interested in a return on their investment. This puts Congress under an obligation before a vote is cast. Incumbent Congressman spend 25% of the time in office raising funds for the next election. We also have the spectacle of a president regularly going cap in hand to rich donors.
The American electorate has oscillated between Democrats and Republicans with no effect on the degree of income transfer which Congress facilitates. So, the first thing to be done is to take the money out of the election process.
Secondly, a good case can be made for term limits on Congress similar to those for the president. No one should serve more than two terms. Serving in Congress should be a privilege not a profession. Term limits would break up the old boys club and ensure continuous supply of new ideas.
The third problem is lobbying. It is undemocratic for large organizations to pay others to present their views to Congress. Lobbying should be outlawed. There are 30,000 people employed in lobbying in Washington alone. Congress should only take note of views expressed by the individual voter.
Finally Congress should not be able to vote themselves privileges which are not in line with the privileges afforded to the individual voter. Matters like congressional pay scales and other benefits should only be changed on the basis of a referendum.
Until these changes are made there can be no real democracy in the United States. However it will not be an easy matter to convince Congress to get off the gravy train.
Hope yer kind starves to death
Fuck u asshole for erasing my post. U have no sense or intellectual honesty. Fuck yer mom n pop
Interest on credi cards should be prime +2. If prime+20 were charged then the 18% paid should be applied to principal.
i would like to see the bankers(and others) who caused this economic mess treated like drug dealers, take there assets, force them to wear ankle bracelets, seize there bank accounts, prosecute them and place them into the general population in prison. im not against banks, they have a useful function, but this latest civil abortion is inexcusable, an example should be set. this would be a start. peace
Look people, what do racial and gender equal rights have to do with Wall St? And debt forgiveness for everyone? That's called THEFT from those who saved and then made those savings available for folks like you to borrow (even if you lacked the means to pay those loans back).
This isn't about occupying Wall St. it's about destroying the very fabric of American Entrepreneurial business and transferring wealth from those who do, to those who do nothing..
Granted, Wall St. is tremendously cupable in it's abuse of the US political system, but if you're demand were granted, you'd be little different in how you're trying to enrich yourselves (by defaulting, while retaining the asset you borrowed to buy), and expecting taxpayers to take care of you.
Here's a better list of demand that actually make sense.
Outlaw Credit Default Swaps, which are nothing more than a means for financial speculators to destroy the underlying value of any collateral posted against a loan. Restore the traditional Financial surety system that was devastated by the financial crisis of 2008. CDS act in a manner that would be like every person in your neighborhood taking out fire insurance on YOUR home, and then conspiring to burn it down in order to collect the insurance. This is exactly how they act in the global financial markets. Who wants to own assets, or borrow money to purchase them, when they can be destroyed by CDS speculators?
Halt all efforts to implement "Cap and Trade" energy policies as they are nothing more than an effort by politicians and Wall St. to control the lives of Americans, and profit from "rent-seeking" from pollution sources. Both Cap and Trade (carbon credits) and Credit Default Swaps are the creation of Blythe Masters, formerly of JP Morgan. (look her up if you don't believe me)
Halt all subsidies for any alternative energy technology that FAILS to provide baseload power necessary to spur economic growth, and therefore jobs. Businesses will avoid establishing operations in areas where they cannot count upon reliable power 24x7.
Rather than limiting so called "greenhouse gases", recognize that the rest of the developing world will resist any efforts to stifle their economic growth. Instead, explore geo-engineering technologies that hold the promise of mitigating the effects of any global warming, and are completely reversible (iron fertilization of the oceans, creation of a "stratoshield").
Subsidize (by merit) the education of individuals fulfilling degrees that meet pressing social needs (medical, engineering, technology.. etc). Interest free loans, and debt forgiveness for those who dedicate their skills and time to meet social needs. Education is an investment in human potential.
Require all physically capable recipients of government assistance to be required to perform socially related work in exchange for the money they receive from other taxpayers. Workfare works.
Provide tax credits to businesses for hiring, retaining, and retraining workers.
Immigration reform that requires us to enforce existing immigration laws. Establish temporary worker visas for those existing illegal aliens so we can establish their identities, and their desirability for residence in the US. Require reciprocity in our immigration and visa requirements. (eg: If a Saudi comes to the US, they must surrender their passport and be escorted wherever they visit in the US) By these means, we will motivate democratic reform in their countries of origin.
Infrastructure spending is a much needed activity, and can assist in preserving job skills for the chronically unemployed. However, placing a price on it is ridiculous.. Triage where we need immediate action, and prioritize according to projected return on investment for any new projects. No return, no money.. Critical needs only, not "nice to have" projects. These can be undertaken through donated funding from the private sector.
Finally, creation of an efficient hybrid health care system that fosters efficiency and cost savings through preventative care and competition.
Establishment of a new tax system that promotes savings, investment, and entrepreneurial business activity. They are many proposals that can be looked at, but it must focus on eliminating an accounting industry that thrives on tax law complexity. It must be simplifed and made fair for all.
I think that's enough for now.. but by no means all inclusive.
Why is this on the Occupy Wall Street Web page it is not legitimate, it does not even correspond to the Declaration of the Occupation of Wall Street page. This does not represent the movement it is subversive and incorrect. This misinforms people and confuses the movement. REMOVE IMMEDIATELY.
Occupy wall street needs to have a simple message that people can grasp and get behind. The tea party had success when they focused on "taxed enough already" and had failure when they let other things like racism and hatred of gays get wrapped up in it. The focus of occupy wall street should be: raise taxes on the rich, and end the war. "Tax the rich, end the war" is easy to understand, and would solve the financial problems of the country as well as provide money to provide social services. Tax the rich, end the war - don't get distracted with other unpopular moral statements, that will only weaken the movement.
Just an idea, Nowhere in the constitution does it state we must pay taxes on our income. Yet they are requiring us to. Few are fighting this individually. We should fight this too.
Just an idea, Nowhere in the constitution does it state we must pay taxes on our income. Yet they are requiring us to. Few are fighting this individually. We should fight this too.
If we don't clean up government and get rid of lobbyist influence, big money campaign contributions and no-bid contracts, how can't we trust government to spend huge amounts on infrastructure? It would simply disappear amid cheating corporations doing shoddy work, and contracts to overseas companies (i.e. China) rather than toward employment of those in our country. Look at what happened with the Federal stimulus money in Texas -- their governor and legislature simply applied it to their own state's deficit rather than use it to create any jobs. I think Job 1 has to be to take back our federal and state governments from the corrupt rich and powerful who currently control them (and for me, this includes the Supreme Court).
Goals:
Influence share holders to divest in corporations that pay CEOs and senior executives more than 100 times their lowest paid worker.
Influence all Americans to close accounts at major banks and join credit unions.
Pass Fair Trade laws to replace Free Trade laws.
Force Congress to pass term limit legislation, three terms for the House and two terms for the Senate, no more career politicians.
Force Congress to make corporate campaign contributions illegal, only citizens can contribute up to $100 per candidate.
Pass the Employee Free Choice Act.
Goals:
Influence share holders to divest in corporations that pay CEOs and senior executives more than 100 times their lowest paid worker.
Influence all Americans to close accounts at major banks and join credit unions.
Pass Fair Trade laws to replace Free Trade laws.
Force Congress to pass term limit legislation, three terms for the House and two terms for the Senate, no more career politicians.
Force Congress to make corporate campaign contributions illegal, only citizens can contribute up to $100 per candidate.
Pass the Employee Free Choice Act.
This is the most backward economics I've ever seen...I really hope you guys are put down. It's disgusting. And your hatred is misplaced towards the banks when it should be going towards the government. If all of these demands are enacted, goodbye America, goodbye Freedom.
Someone stated that "this isn't a debate." Well here's another forum for a debate on this issue:
http://nationalfederalist.hoop.la/displayForumTopic/content/244060506144244310
What doped up trustafarian came up with this idiocy? With cranks like this around this movement is damned to be giggled to death I'm afraid.
A leftist anti-American hippie movement will go nowhere fast. You have to appeal to the massive middle; normal, usually apolitical Americans (soccer moms, middle aged middle class suburban dads, etc.) and stay focused on the real, genuine shared concern: out of control debt owed by ordinary Americans to financial institutions that were themselves bailed out by the government.
There are a lot of cranky, pseudo-leftist college kids in this 'movement' and it's turning off a lot of potential supporters.
Open borders? WTF? Kid, kids, kids...
Okay, I love you. I have walked with you and I have friends sleeping with you. But these demands are discombobulated, not fully elaborated and are all over the map. I am used to this, as whenever we would protest in SF for environmental reforms (Hetch Hetchy, et. al) all the other left-leaning groups would come out of the woodwork and try to co-opt the message. Code Pink, Free Mumia, would all start shouting over the people who set up the protest in the first place, we would be dismissed as a bunch of unorganized hippies (sound familiar?) and nothing would get done. I agree with many of the environmental, health and other ideas, but they don't really belong here. They talk to the symptoms of the problem, not the problem itself.
Focus the message. These are a much better list of demands: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/ as they are well thought-out, fully elaborated and keep the message focused to the issues that I believe most of your mainstream supporters are supporting you. Get those accomplished, and getting the rest of the list (health care reform, environmental protections) will come much easier.
Stand proud, shout loud!
I want to offer the following idea as a possible theme and focus for pulling together the many good ideas that have been mentioned --
To pick up the fight where President Roosevelt and the progressives of an earlier era left off by champion Roosevelt's "Economic Bill of Rights".
God Bless, and keep democracy alive.!
-- TP2
from http://www.fdrheritage.org/bill_of_rights.htm
Franklin Roosevelt's “Economic Bill of Rights” Excerpt from President Roosevelt's January 11, 1944 message to the Congress of the United States on the State of the Union
It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.
This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.
As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.
We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.
In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a Second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.
Among these are:
The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.
All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.
America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.
I want to offer the following idea as a possible theme and focus for pulling together the many good ideas that have been mentioned --
To pick up the fight where President Roosevelt and the progressives of an earlier era left off by champion Roosevelt's "Economic Bill of Rights".
God Bless, and keep democracy alive.!
-- TP2
from http://www.fdrheritage.org/bill_of_rights.htm
Franklin Roosevelt's “Economic Bill of Rights” Excerpt from President Roosevelt's January 11, 1944 message to the Congress of the United States on the State of the Union
It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.
This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.
As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.
We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.
In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a Second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.
Among these are:
The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.
All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.
America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.
I want to offer the following idea as a possible theme and focus for pulling together the many good ideas that have been mentioned --
To pick up the fight where President Roosevelt and the progressives of an earlier era left off by champion Roosevelt's "Economic Bill of Rights".
God Bless, and keep democracy alive.!
-- TP2
from http://www.fdrheritage.org/bill_of_rights.htm
Franklin Roosevelt's “Economic Bill of Rights” Excerpt from President Roosevelt's January 11, 1944 message to the Congress of the United States on the State of the Union
It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.
This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.
As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.
We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.
In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a Second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.
Among these are:
The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.
All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.
America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.
I want to offer the following idea as a possible theme and focus for pulling together the many good ideas that have been mentioned --
To pick up the fight where President Roosevelt and the progressives of an earlier era left off by champion Roosevelt's "Economic Bill of Rights".
God Bless, and keep democracy alive.!
-- TP2
from http://www.fdrheritage.org/bill_of_rights.htm
Franklin Roosevelt's “Economic Bill of Rights” Excerpt from President Roosevelt's January 11, 1944 message to the Congress of the United States on the State of the Union
It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.
This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.
As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.
We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.
In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a Second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.
Among these are:
The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.
All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.
America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.
This list is a good starting point, but it needs to be refined. We have a corrupted system, and the way to fix it is to eliminate the corruption not to eliminate the system. You'll never find broad support for complete revolution because although everybody wants their lives to be better nobody wants to give up the good things they already have.
Example: Free education - not practical as it devalues the entire system, but a need-based progressive tuition scale could be implemented easily (already many top private universities quietly use such a system). In other words, education should be equally accessible to everyone regardless of financial status.
Example: Outlaw all credit agencies. This could lead to an arbitrary private system where race or ethnicity might be part of the decision to get a loan. In fact a centralized objective credit rating service is a good thing, but it must belong to the people, not to the banks. Make it a public agency or at least mandate 100% freedom of information to citizens. I shouldn't have to pay money to get my own credit updates online or even to challenge my score every single week if I want.
Example:$20 minimum wage. This places unnecessary constraints on employers and will kill jobs, but it is insane that our system rewards CEOs for laying off hundreds of US workers and shipping their jobs overseas. How about a MAXIMUM WAGE. Fix total CEO compensation (salary + bonus) at no greater than 50 times the lowest paid employee's total compensation (salary + benefits). The idea is not to cap wages for executives, but to make sure that pay cuts percolate all the way up to the top.
Example: Single payer health care. While this would probably be a good idea, Obama demonstrated that it is not politically realistic. However there is something wrong when the shareholders' bottom line matters more to a health insurance company than delivering quality health care. Mandate instead that 100% of profits generated in the health insurance industry must come from return on investment of premiums. In other words if any money from premiums (but not interest generated)is left over at the end of the year it must be paid back to all customers as a membership bonus and NOT to shareholders, who literally have no skin in the game.
Example: Universal debt forgiveness. This is simply insane. I worked years to pay off my mortgage because a home is an object of value worth investing in. You can't give them away for free because nobody will pay to build them and nobody will put their own home on the market. However, let's examine the true problem here -- debt that is out of proportion to what was obtained for that debt (homes under water, college degrees that can't even get you a temp job, etc.). That is the problem. One solution might be to make sure that the lender assumes as much risk as the borrower. Perhaps a law that says that for every dollar of debt that turns out to be greater than the value of the object that it was used to obtain the borrower only owes 50 cents on the dollar. In other words, the bank and the borrower share the pain of the bank having made a loan that was bigger than it should have been. In the current system only the borrower suffers for the bank's failure to do due diligence.
Some of these points are good as is (infrastructure investment) and others will never be salvageable (open borders + elimination of free trade together). But we can definitely make a good workable list ...
...and without specific demands there is no point in occupying anything.
A CRITIQUE OF EACH OF THESE DEMANDS HAS BEEN POSTED ONLINE: http://www.nationalfederalism.com Folks are encouraged also to utilize that site's forum to discuss these issues.
This list is a very personal wish list that is really incoherent, unrealistic, and un-achievable. OccupyWallStreet.org should set up a Wiki to build a develop a Protest Platform or Statement of Principles that serves a critique of the political and economics problems that need to be solved and suggested solutions (rather than list of demands). The Wiki is a consensus building tool through debate and argument to hopefully arrive at something that can be widely supported by the "movement."
The problem is that everyone here is protesting for different reasons, Come on people Find common grounds and stick to it if you want to get more attention. It's like if i said i was running for president so i could change tax rates, stop wars, help out small businesses, end poverty, yeah it all sounds good but with so many platforms nobody would vote for me, Find common ground and AGREE, and don't let the corporate fat cats win.
Both business, government and even our monitory systems are in the habit of accounting for income and expenses at different times than they are actually received or expended. In the context of trust and public responsibility this practice could be useful and give flexibility in times of stress. But apparently leveraging and postponing can get way out of hand, and trust and responsibility can get so eroded that the whole economic/government structure becomes extremely unstable. Now it seems that this mistrust and malfeasance could conceivably plunge the whole world into a liquidity crisis and mega depression.
If we stay away from blaming and extreme positioning, and take a calm look at the trends, I believe that almost everyone has to admit that much of our believed in economic theory does not work for its intended purpose. Isn't the sharing of that realization the only way we are going to gather the 99%? Let's face it, even if we get 22% or 11% we will have a huge voice, and all these injustices that I think are surely evidence of broken institutions and flawed theories will be forced onto the platform in 2012.
How can we invent new ad hoc theories that even our best universities haven't been able to come up with? We need a national open dialogue. And sure, certain issues can be tackled too, but that can't be the first priority. No matter what is done on individual issues, it won't be a quick fix. Then there will be a backlash, and all of our progress will be undone. That must be inevitable if all we are about is "against something".
I believe that every radical issue that we adopt now, no matter what the level of obvious injustice, will only serve to disperse the 99% and deflate this beautiful initiative before meaningful dialogues are the norm. People have to have issues and slogans to motivate participation. Let's talk of participation because of the momentus opportunity this can be to restructure our society.
Who in the world can restructure and de-stratify society better than us, the people of New York and the vibrant and educated population of America? We right here can create the brotherhood that the whole world has only dreamed of. We have been educated for our whole lives in these principles, even if they weren't equitably applied as we grew up, we know what we want.
If we believe that anger and outrage are the most potent tools we will wear ourselves out and alienate many millions that are home praying that we make some right moves and prove our love, concern and tolerance for all of our brothers and sisters. If we handle these early stages right and proceed with some equanimity our numbers will swell to get some very important jobs done. You who are out on the front line must know how important your contribution is. Let's handle ourselves such that we can impress our families and even our parents that this movement is honorable and that we will create the first truly just society that includes every citizen.
We should go to back to our most fundamental principles that our forefather, the founder of this nation brought forth, which is, the government of the people, for the people, by the people should not perish from the earth
Demand one: Reform election system, limit amount of money that an individual or a corporation can contribute, let big money influence, lobbyists get out of our politics, make it a law, bring our country back to the people
Demands must be directed and realistic...
Distribution of Wealth is the single greatest problem..The enormous skew in wealth has placed all economic power in the hands of a very few leaving the majority with little more than debt...Our American based consumer economy can not sustain itself under these constaints...
The most practical way to redestribute the wealth is by altering the tax structure. We are in a desperate situation...calling for desperate measures..I purpose.. 1) A cap on personal wealth..For the greater good our system simply can not function if indivual citizens have net wealths in the billions..This takes too much of currency out of the commercial flow...and results in business failures, job losses, and debt. 2) A severe graduated income tax system set up to correct the current skew and restore the economy. All Income, without any deduction over certain levels eg. over $1mil/year need to be taxed in the ninety plus percentile and returned to the state. 3)The state can not reurn money to the consumers who need it, by giving it to the banks..The banks simply buy bonds at 4% interest. Interest we end up paying for..The government should take the money from thes e wealthy few and institue job programs adressing our faltering infra structure and build much needed safe nuclear power plants to end our dependence on foreign oil..Stop the debate on Nuclear...nothing on this planet is "risk free' certain not fossil fuel..Nuclear is cheaper and cleaner in the long run and if safety is a concern..build them underground... ":>) DS53
A severely graduated income tax like the one you propose would eliminate any incentive for hard work and innovation. The reason why the United States is an established economic power is because its citizens have the opportunity to pursue unlimited success. If we eliminate the ability of citizens to keep a million dollars a year, then nobody will put in the requisite work to earn a million dollars a year. The economy will be much weaker as a result, and, according to the Laffer curve, federal tax revenues will actually decrease.
Along those same lines, a cap on wealth would eliminate the incentive for innovations by the future Bill Gates and Steve Jobs of the world. Furthermore, it would be a complete infringement on personal liberties. Again, the beauty of the American system is that it promotes growth and innovation. You are asking for the government to stymie growth and innovation.
While the lopsided distribution of wealth in this country might seem like a problem, it cannot be fixed simply by taking money away from the rich and giving it to the state. After all, most billionaires in this country do not simply hoard their wealth, as you indicate. To the contrary, they make massive contributions to GDP through high levels of consumption and investment. You cannot build up the weak by tearing down the strong. Punishing success will never be the answer to any problem that this country faces.
Demands must be directed and realistic...
Distribution of Wealth is the single greatest problem..The enormous skew in wealth has placed all economic power in the hands of a very few leaving the majority with little more than debt...Our American based consumer economy can not sustain itself under these constaints...
The most practical way to redestribute the wealth is by altering the tax structure. We are in a desperate situation...calling for desperate measures..I purpose.. 1) A cap on personal wealth..For the greater good our system simply can not function if indivual citizens have net wealths in the billions..This takes too much of currency out of the commercial flow...and results in business failures, job losses, and debt. 2) A severe graduated income tax system set up to correct the current skew and restore the economy. All Income, without any deduction over certain levels eg. over $1mil/year need to be taxed in the ninety plus percentile and returned to the state. 3)The state can not reurn money to the consumers who need it, by giving it to the banks..The banks simply buy bonds at 4% interest. Interest we end up paying for..The government should take the money from thes e wealthy few and institue job programs adressing our faltering infra structure and build much needed safe nuclear power plants to end our dependence on foreign oil..Stop the debate on Nuclear...nothing on this planet is "risk free' certain not fossil fuel..Nuclear is cheaper and cleaner in the long run and if safety is a concern..build them underground... ":>) DS53
Excellent Demands! (but I Do think you need to tweak demand 9 a bit).
While envionmentalist concerns and immigration issuess are admirable, they seem a bit off-topic. I would suggest omitting them as not every 99%er is an environmentalist or pro open borders.
Crap like this won't let us be taken seriously. Either we have adult supervision or this will flame out. I'm a former protester from the 60s. To you great young people--although over 30, please allow us to pass down our wisdom .
Ok Lloyd I don't know your life story, but take it from a 52 year old fat white guy from Texas. A $20.00 a hour min. wage would ruin the economy. Frankly some 40 yrear old working at McDonalds should be paid about $5 a hour in my book, maybe then he will get off of his Duff and get a good job. Open Borders is a very bad ideal. I've watched a lot of middle class jobs go to Illegals becuase of the simple fact that the federal Gov't refuses to actually enforce the border. Altough banning credit reporting agencies might be a good ideal, especially after my last Divorce. Excuse the spelling errors, I am educated but its been a long long night.
I'm curious to know why it's the government's responsibility to raise minimum wage in order for people to live their lives? Why should any company be forced to pay $20/hour to anyone?
I'm surprised I'm not seeing a demand for prosecution of the white collar criminals involved in the subprime crisis. These people very possibly orchestrated an entire economic meltdown for their own profit. The CEOs who were fingered made a settlement and walked away. Obviously they don't want a prosecutor digging any deeper. This is completely unacceptable, and our top demand should be justice! If this really was a conspiracy to defraud millions of Americans, then what's to stop these people from doing it again, 10, 20 years from now when the economy finally recovers?
Yeah. Specific demands are needed, but they need to be reasonable.
1: I don't know the issue well enough to comment, but it looks gov't subsidy related, so not corporate related, so irrelevant to this protest.
2: Free health care is a great idea, but a government one, not a corporate one. Insurance companies work just fine in the EU so no need to ban 'em. Reining them right the hell in, though, definitely needed, but it needs to start at the hospitals: they charge insane amounts.
3: even as someone who's lived on social security, I really don't like the idea of giving no strings attached minimum wage to anyone who asks. Possibly if the "living wage" were mostly in food stamps, or somesuch, then yes. However, this has nothing to do with corporations.
4: Even in the EU, this idea is dying. But making the loans have the same rules apply to them as normal ones (eg no bankruptcy immunity, etc) would be good. Again, this is nothing to do with corporations.
5: Needs explanation of how alt energy could possibly meet needs, before being viable. Again, NTDWC.
6: While you're at it, give everyone a free pony. Again, NTDWC.
7,8,9,10: Again, NTDWC. There are far too many completely irrelevant points here.
11: While debt forgiveness would be lovely, I'd need to see some kind of mechanism for how this could possibly begin to work. I think eradicating the large head of the very smallest debts could do absolute wonders for the economy and promote spending - but even sticking to just debts under $10k, I don't see how that could work.
12: Why outlaw credit reporting agencies? What would replace them? How would you outlaw that replacement? What good would it achieve? This sounds like it was just thought up by someone with a lousy credit rating.
13: I don't know the issue well enough to comment.
Honestly, while there are a couple of half-decent ideas hidden away in there, there is not a single demand that I can agree with in its entirety. I do not think any of these could garner wide support.
Even Paul Krugman, the left's biggest economic champion, would find this list absurd, contradictory, and lacking any reasonable economic foundations. It's just not based in reality. Anyone with a few economics courses under their belt, regardless of political affiliation, would quickly come to that conclusion upon reading this list. I admire the sentiments and passion behind this post, but there are real ways to make significant societal and economic changes, and few of them are found on this list.
I googled OWS in order to make a donation -- which I will still do, though I don't agree with many of these demands. Some should be changed, some dropped.
those demands sound ludicrous at best. You can't strike all debt from the books that doesn't even make sense and there is no basis for it other that you desire not to repay your debts. Credit reporting agencies are necessary to the lending industry, with no was of determining someone's pattern of repayment how can you adequately decide if you feel comfortable lending to them, if we immediately spend $2 trillion where the hell is that money going to come from...are we going to borrow that and then strike it from the books? $20 an hour minimum wage is a ridiculous notion. Most small business owners can't come close to affording to pay every employee that much per hour that wouldn't create jobs it would cause our country to lose them en masse to places like China & India where the wages are MUCH lower and getting rid of all the nuclear power plants would be the worst thing we could do right now it would only increase our immediate dependence on fossil fuels. Do you have any idea how long it will take America to replace all the fossil fuel energy generation with renewable sources...decades at best. Tons of our power comes from nuclear plants, we can't just get rid of that and not expect our energy prices to "necessarily skyrocket" as President Obama said. I don't know about you, but I already pay enough for my utilities i don't need them to go up at all much less sky rocket. Mr. Hart, you really ought to consult someone with A LOT more knowledge before you make such outlandish over the top posts on behalf of such a huge movement. You are only causing it to lose valuable credibility with the remaining Americans who haven't signed on yet. I am definitely for change, but certainly not the change you wish to see in this country.
Demand #1: good luck with that. then you can not compete in this world. Demand #2: Healthcare should also be separate from employment. Demand #3: very nice, very socialist. Not feasible. Demand #4: We love it in Europe. Demand #5: And tax the fossil fuel companies for a change. Demand 6&7: Alright you have to start somewhere, but, please no dollars amount, it may me more, it may be less. Demand #8: One would think you should have to even voice this one in this day and age... Demand #9: very hard to accomplish. please save for later. Demand #10: Ok Demand#11:No Demand #12: Not sure Demand #13: Save for another time. Demand#14: credits/tax breaks to companies who innovate, develop products and produce within the US. Demand#15: Reduce military pending. Focus spending on infrastructure and education. This is what we tell every underdeveloped nation!!!
Demand #1: good luck with that. then you can not compete in this world. Demand #2: Healthcare should also be separate from employment. Demand #3: very nice, very socialist. Not feasible. Demand #4: We love it in Europe. Demand #5: And tax the fossil fuel companies for a change. Demand 6&7: Alright you have to start somewhere, but, please no dollars amount, it may me more, it may be less. Demand #8: One would think you should have to even voice this one in this day and age... Demand #9: very hard to accomplish. please save for later. Demand #10: Ok Demand#11:No Demand #12: Not sure Demand #13: Save for another time. Demand#14: credits/tax breaks to companies who innovate, develop products and produce within the US. Demand#15: Reduce military pending. Focus spending on infrastructure and education. This is what we tell every underdeveloped nation!!!
Demand #1: good luck with that. then you can not compete in this world. Demand #2: Healthcare should also be separate from employment. Demand #3: very nice, very socialist. Not feasible. Demand #4: We love it in Europe. Demand #5: And tax the fossil fuel companies for a change. Demand 6&7: Alright you have to start somewhere, but, please no dollars amount, it may me more, it may be less. Demand #8: One would think you should have to even voice this one in this day and age... Demand #9: very hard to accomplish. please save for later. Demand #10: Ok Demand#11:No Demand #12: Not sure Demand #13: Save for another time. Demand#14: credits/tax breaks to companies who innovate, develop products and produce within the US. Demand#15: Reduce military pending. Focus spending on infrastructure and education. This is what we tell every underdeveloped nation!!!
Demand #1: good luck with that. then you can not compete in this world. Demand #2: Healthcare should also be separate from employment. Demand #3: very nice, very socialist. Not feasible. Demand #4: We love it in Europe. Demand #5: And tax the fossil fuel companies for a change. Demand 6&7: Alright you have to start somewhere, but, please no dollars amount, it may me more, it may be less. Demand #8: One would think you should have to even voice this one in this day and age... Demand #9: very hard to accomplish. please save for later. Demand #10: Ok Demand#11:No Demand #12: Not sure Demand #13: Save for another time. Demand#14: credits/tax breaks to companies who innovate, develop products and produce within the US. Demand#15: Reduce military pending. Focus spending on infrastructure and education. This is what we tell every underdeveloped nation!!!
Demand #1: good luck with that. then you can not compete in this world. Demand #2: Healthcare should also be separate from employment. Demand #3: very nice, very socialist. Not feasible. Demand #4: We love it in Europe. Demand #5: And tax the fossil fuel companies for a change. Demand 6&7: Alright you have to start somewhere, but, please no dollars amount, it may me more, it may be less. Demand #8: One would think you should have to even voice this one in this day and age... Demand #9: very hard to accomplish. please save for later. Demand #10: Ok Demand#11:No Demand #12: Not sure Demand #13: Save for another time. Demand#14: credits/tax breaks to companies who innovate, develop products and produce within the US. Demand#15: Reduce military pending. Focus spending on infrastructure and education. This is what we tell every underdeveloped nation!!!
Demand #1: good luck with that. then you can not compete in this world. Demand #2: Healthcare should also be separate from employment. Demand #3: very nice, very socialist. Not feasible. Demand #4: We love it in Europe. Demand #5: And tax the fossil fuel companies for a change. Demand 6&7: Alright you have to start somewhere, but, please no dollars amount, it may me more, it may be less. Demand #8: One would think you should have to even voice this one in this day and age... Demand #9: very hard to accomplish. please save for later. Demand #10: Ok Demand#11:No Demand #12: Not sure Demand #13: Save for another time. Demand#14: credits/tax breaks to companies who innovate, develop products and produce within the US. Demand#15: Reduce military pending. Focus spending on infrastructure and education. This is what we tell every underdeveloped nation!!!
You sir, are woefully ignorant of how the world actually works. There is not a shred of economic wisdom in a single one of your demands. I will go through these demands, one by one, and explain why they make absolutely no sense.
Lloyd J. Hart, you are truly a disgrace to America. We are now all stupider for having read this imbecilic drivel. May God have mercy on your soul.
Sincerely, A college student who actually studies economics, rather than pretending to know about it
For the record, the reply form automatically renumbered my bullet points. Points 1-9 in my reply correspond with demands 5-13.
is this some sort of sick joke? 8 & 9 are the only ones i agree with..
I don't think any of this will help the true cause of ending poverty and ending the greedy gluttonous apathetic behavior of the rich. unemployment would go up to 25% if minimum wage were $20 an hour. I myself am trying to get $10.39 minimum wage pushed, but even that will cause more job loss. What the hell do we do!? The world has so many problems that seem almost impossible to solve. But together we can do something. Also, why lose nuclear power? It's that or polluting coal. Solar isn't efficient enough yet but it's on it's way. Education is already free, just search the Internet. Let's just pass Obama's jobs plan and go from there. I'm also an advocate of global fair wage.
Seems like this is the agenda of President Obama. No news here.
Get rid of the Supreme Court ruling that allowed corporations to use their own money to support or oppose candidates for public office. *
This should be front and center of all your demands. If you're going to "occupy wall street", and if you are concerned about corporate influence in our politics... how is this demand NOT on your list of "Occupy Wall Street" demands?!
I support this movement and the hope that it represents. There is so much passion and desire for a change that it makes me feel truly inspired. The only suggestion that I have to improve this movement is that if we want to change the current infrastructure, if we want to effect change we have to think strategically. To a certain extent we have to “think like the corporations”. Yes, everyone in this movement has a voice, a legitimate complaint and the right to fight for what they believe in NO MATTER CONSERVATIVE OR LIBERAL we all have things we are unsatisfied with. If anyone was truly happy with the way things are there would not be nearly as much hatred and hostility for our fellow Americans. But, like everything else you will never find success from indirect focus. Major corporations didn’t get where they are today by going after dozens of goals at one time. They got where they are today by developing a strong market for a good or service and expanding once success had been established. If apple had started with 30 different products and no defined market they would have failed miserably. So with that said I urge you to brainstorm, to look at the issues we are being presented with and find one, two or maybe three key issues that need a change, find the ones that appeal to the masses not matter what “side” they are on. Once those key issues have been identified a plan of action must be established. Who are we targeting? How will we get them to join our movement? Once our support has grown what are exactly do we want to see? What is it that we want to see changed and why? We need to come together to fight for a few of the issues that will affect the most change for the greater good. Once we have established a “market” and become “profitable” we start to introduce new products and break into new markets. Do we want to fix the income disparities? Do we want to revise the two party system? Do we want corporations and wealthy Americans to pay more in taxes? Do we want funding for social services increased? Do we want government spending under control? Do we want a balance of cuts and revenue increases? WHAT DO WE WANT AND HOW DO WE PLAN TO GET IT???? These are the important questions we have to start asking ourselves in order to keep this movement from fizzling out. I don’t want to see this end without results but if we can’t come together and focus on one, two or three specific common goals I am very afraid that it will. No matter what “side” we are on I think that we can all agree that what is going on now, the cat fights and big swinging d*ck competitions in the White House aren’t working for the benefit of anyone! We need to band together.
I support this movement and the hope that it represents. There is so much passion and desire for a change that it makes me feel truly inspired. The only suggestion that I have to improve this movement is that if we want to change the current infrastructure, if we want to effect change we have to think strategically. To a certain extent we have to “think like the corporations”. Yes, everyone in this movement has a voice, a legitimate complaint and the right to fight for what they believe in NO MATTER CONSERVATIVE OR LIBERAL we all have things we are unsatisfied with. If anyone was truly happy with the way things are there would not be nearly as much hatred and hostility for our fellow Americans. But, like everything else you will never find success from indirect focus. Major corporations didn’t get where they are today by going after dozens of goals at one time. They got where they are today by developing a strong market for a good or service and expanding once success had been established. If apple had started with 30 different products and no defined market they would have failed miserably. So with that said I urge you to brainstorm, to look at the issues we are being presented with and find one, two or maybe three key issues that need a change, find the ones that appeal to the masses not matter what “side” they are on. Once those key issues have been identified a plan of action must be established. Who are we targeting? How will we get them to join our movement? Once our support has grown what are exactly do we want to see? What is it that we want to see changed and why? We need to come together to fight for a few of the issues that will affect the most change for the greater good. Once we have established a “market” and become “profitable” we start to introduce new products and break into new markets. Do we want to fix the income disparities? Do we want to revise the two party system? Do we want corporations and wealthy Americans to pay more in taxes? Do we want funding for social services increased? Do we want government spending under control? Do we want a balance of cuts and revenue increases? WHAT DO WE WANT AND HOW DO WE PLAN TO GET IT???? These are the important questions we have to start asking ourselves in order to keep this movement from fizzling out. I don’t want to see this end without results but if we can’t come together and focus on one, two or three specific common goals I am very afraid that it will. No matter what “side” we are on I think that we can all agree that what is going on now, the cat fights and big swinging d*ck competitions in the White House aren’t working for the benefit of anyone! We need to band together.
As well as the exigencies of the moment, you have an authority for your demands that you are not using.
None less than one of your greatest presidents.
Roosevelt's remedy was to declare an "economic bill of rights" which would guarantee:
Employment, with a living wage, Freedom from unfair competition and monopolies, Housing, Medical care, Education, and, Social security
I would suggest you make more of it and him.
As well as the exigencies of the moment, you have an authority for your demands that you are not using.
None less than one of your greatest presidents.
Roosevelt's remedy was to declare an "economic bill of rights" which would guarantee:
Employment, with a living wage, Freedom from unfair competition and monopolies, Housing, Medical care, Education, and, Social security
I would suggest you make more of it and him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=hk4TgUxX0fQ
The Corporation is the most dangerous entity for democracies. Because they have evolved into international giants with no allegiance to any ideology, region or state and have no moral compass, their powers must be limited or else made illegal.
The three legs of the corporate threat are: control of the Government, control of the Labor Force and control of Communications.
The recent Federal Supreme Court ruling allowing unfettered amounts of money from corporations into the political process encourages them to further buy our legislators and warp the political process through the domination of funding for political advertisements. Control of News organizations by a limited number of huge trans-national corporations further imperils the electorate.
The solution to this is to mandate that all multichannel television providers be mandated to provide from 1 to 3 channels for candidates to present themselves for scrutiny by the electorate. These channels would be used for debates, personal profiles, interview sessions and discussion of relevant issues for the electorate. There are many formats available for this: One channel each for Democrats, Republicans and Independents, One channel each for Federal, State and Local issues with equal time given to Independents, Republicans and Democrats or some other format providing equal time for opposing views. It should be mandatory that all registered voters be allowed by random lottery to question candidates or office holders in a panel format weekly or more often in one or two hour blocks. Panel discussions of issues would also be run with EQUAL TIME FOR OPPOSING VIEWS. With this set into place, Issue ads and political ads for office seekers would be banned.
I'm going to take a break now. The rest of my current thoughts are available on request.
perhaps instead of camping out in a park and complaining maybe you all should go back to school becuause these demands were obviously written by idiots. want to change the world? study hard and work your ass off! get hired by these companies or elected to office and change jthe system from the inside. because you all obviously lack the intellect to comprehend the issues you are protesting do your part by volunteering. imagine the social change if you all spent the last three weeks helping the elderly, homelss and poor yourselves. the working class should be protestinig your lazy asses but we are too busy working and keeping country running.
At the very least, EVERYONE should be entitled to basic human necesseties. Food, Housing, Health care, and Education
At the very least, EVERYONE should be entitled to basic human necesseties. Food, Housing, Health care, and Education
How about 20yr mandatory fed time for using public office for personal gain. 20 yr mandatory fed time for Politicians having greater income that salaried by state. Maximum of 10 million dollars for campaign spending. These will help to separate the government from the NY Bankers and put it back into the hands of the people.
Demand one: reinstate the Glass-Steagall act Demand two: implement a 1% sales tax on all Wall street transactions (this money can be used to protect the unsustainable social safety net) Demand three: implement a 5 year stop on all home loan interest and foreclosures (allow families a chance to work their payments back up to date) Demand four: a 5 year stop on all student loans. At the end of the 5 year stop all loans will resume at 0% interest. Demand five: End the Federal Reserve. The private bank that issues all of our nations currency as an interest bearing loan pledging your children as collateral. Give the power to issue currency and control monitory policy back to congress. Demand six: make your demands based in reality and you might actually get one of them.
Oh yeah... Almost forgot. For gods sake..... END THE WARS!!
My name is Steven Gonzales, and i live in VA. I say strike all demands and vote for this one simple amendment.
SEPERATION OF CORPORATION AND STATE.
This simple departure will cover the majority of your demands.
Think about how the church at one time dominated governments. And think, for a moment, about how the separation of CHURCH AND STATE alleviated a great deal of corruption. This one demand is what you seek . this one simple demand is the type that can unify the movement, and could actually have a chance at success.
my resolve to the separation would be this. Corporations would be forced to put money into the election fund, which would then be evenly distributed to ALL recognized political parties. NO MORE VOTING ON THE PEOPLE THE CORPORATIONS PICKED. LET AMERICANS VOTE. LET AMERICANS CAST THEIR VOICE.
End the Federal Reserve. A partial audit last year revealed over 16 trillion dollars printed by the Fed and delivered to mega banks mega corporations (both domestic and foreign) al in secret. Bloomberg financial estimates the amount to be more in the realm of 30 tril. I estimate it to be far greater. These demands are ridiculous and clearly not thought out from an economical standpoint. In terms of both their cost socially and financially. Whoever came up with this has no clue. Enjoy having your movement co-opted by the establishment just like the lame TEAparty.
Too many demands means little to no identity. If the movement wants to be heard it must start by reflecting the majority of the 99%, if not you might as well right this up in the history books and move on. My two cents on the list of demands... Demand CEO's and corporate higher ups of all companies receiving or having received bailouts to give back their bonuses... that's just a start... that makes sense... what is it that Americans are wanting - you now represent them - if Ron Paul is any example like I've seen posted here, it's taken him 30 years for the door to crack open just a little for that which he has been saying to take hold... again something very simple... and let the rest of the demands flow out of there...
My name is Steven Gonzales, and i live in VA. I say strike all demands and vote for this one simple amendment.
SEPERATION OF CORPORATION AND STATE.
This simple departure will cover the majority of your demands.
Think about how the church at one time dominated governments. And think, for a moment, about how the separation of CHURCH AND STATE alleviated a great deal of corruption. This one demand is what you seek . this one simple demand is the type that can unify the movement, and could actually have a chance at success.
my resolve to the separation would be this. Corporations would be forced to put money into the election fund, which would then be evenly distributed to ALL recognized political parties. NO MORE VOTING ON THE PEOPLE THE CORPORATIONS PICKED. LET AMERICANS VOTE. LET AMERICANS CAST THEIR VOICE.
My name is Steven Gonzales, and i live in VA. I say strike all demands and vote for this one simple amendment.
SEPERATION OF CORPORATION AND STATE.
This simple departure will cover the majority of your demands.
Think about how the church at one time dominated governments. And think, for a moment, about how the separation of CHURCH AND STATE alleviated a great deal of corruption. This one demand is what you seek . this one simple demand is the type that can unify the movement, and could actually have a chance at success.
my resolve to the separation would be this. Corporations would be forced to put money into the election fund, which would then be evenly distributed to ALL recognized political parties. NO MORE VOTING ON THE PEOPLE THE CORPORATIONS PICKED. LET AMERICANS VOTE. LET AMERICANS CAST THEIR VOICE.
This list of demands is hysterical! You might as well demand that everyone is rich, no one has to work and everyone has to be nice to each other! An average third grader has a more realistic view of the world. This movement is naivete at its finest!
It is also funny that these people support Obama when Obama is the one who bailed out Wall Street!
This list of demands is hysterical! You might as well demand that everyone is rich, no one has to work and everyone has to be nice to each other! An average third grader has a more realistic view of the world. This movement is naivete at its finest!
It is also funny that these people support Obama when Obama is the one who bailed out Wall Street!
As an accountant, economist, and law student, I have to strongly disagree with all of these demands. They're fundamentally "wrong" because all they do is capture the author's position. They only capture "what" the author wants, and his or her view of what needs to be done to get it. That's poor rule-making. The right way to go about it is to demand rules that target "why" we are in this problem to begin with.
For example: (1) Nobody can run for any elected office position, unless that person first makes a contract with the public that if any promises made prior to being elected are not satisfied with particularity by the end of that elected official's term, both a jail sentence and civil fine will be imposed (this will prevent politicians from promising the world to voters without any accountability); (2) Only individual human beings can make political campaign contributions, and only $100 per person may be contributed (this will make the meaningful right to vote more important than the pretext of free speech, which allows corporations to influence the law-making process while the public picks up the negative externalities tab); (3) No spending bill can be proposed, nor approved, unless it is shown by clear and convincing evidence how the public welfare will improve substantially more than the total cost of effectuating the proposed bill; any citizen may move as of right, to nullify any law that can be shown, by clear and convincing evidence, to harm the public welfare; harming the public welfare shall mean a net social cost, rather than a net social benefit (this will remove any incentive for lobbyists to effectively use the public's money to benefit only a select few of the population, at everyone else's expense); (4) It shall be unlawful for any employer or managerial superior to compensate any employee or subordinate manager less than one-tenth the compensation the employer or managerial superior receives (if closing the income gap is your goal, then why not make it explicitly unlawful to have an unconscionable income gap?); (5) Congress shall not have the authority to create or repeal any law, including revisions to the Internal Revenue Code, that would redistribute wealth to any person (including corporations, since they are legal persons) in any manner that would cause the net worth or annual income of such person to exceed more than seven times the national average. (again, tax cuts to the wealthy, or other schemes to redistribute wealth from the poor and middle class to the rich simply won't be possible).
Good luck applying your criminal/Wall St. mind in circumventing these rules. The bigger question is, why are these not already the law? What exactly is the problem with having such laws on the books? What are "we" afraid of? Is it because these laws are not in the general public's interest? Is it because these laws are not in the wealthy's interest? Then, the question is, who do "we" (the general public) make our laws for?
I have an idea! We should just abolish all monetary value altogether!!! Everyone should just give away everything for free, so that anyone can live a good and happy life. The thing is, we would have to do something about those bums that just take stuff and don't give anything back. Since we're being so realistic, why don't we just invent a drug- it wont cost anything, remember, money doesn't exist- that makes everyone happy all the time! we could call it.... soma!!!!!!
say no to out sourcing , say no to foreign workers, yes bring back jobs back to America, yes we ca
How about repeal of Glass-Steagall? End the wars, decrease military spending, increase safety nets, universal health care, and breaking up the all too big to fails.
It's called Occupy Wall Street because Wall Street is operated like a giant Ponzi scheme.
It's hard to have just message because it's a pileup of thirty years of making bad rules that favor concentration of wealth. Rules matter, and there's been such a pileup of bad ones....where do we even begin?
This list of demands is hysterical! You might as well demand that everyone is rich, no one has to work and everyone has to be nice to each other! An average third grader has a more realistic view of the world. This movement is naivete at its finest!
It is also funny that these people support Obama when Obama is the one who bailed out Wall Street!
This list of demands is hysterical! You might as well demand that everyone is rich, no one has to work and everyone has to be nice to each other! An average third grader has a more realistic view of the world. This movement is naivete at its finest!
It is also funny that these people support Obama when Obama is the one who bailed out Wall Street!
If we want a free society then we must think of how our ancestors survive. Take a look at the Amish way of life.
The elite want an open borders policy haven't you read the proposed North American Union proposal and the NAFTA super highway plans. How can demand # 9 be accurate for protecting the rights of all Americans? How can you support what the bankers and elite desire? You demand 1 trillion dollars in infrastructure, but don't you see that the bankers and elite will profit from this? Who are you demanding it from? Local State? It should be State governments and cities not the bankers or elite. I am against the NWO and elite, so I can't agree with open borders because it is what they desire to complete their NWO. Seems like some of us are still sleeping. Don't let them win by making us think that our only option is open borders. Some of these demands need to be revised. I would let all of the people protesting decide what the demands are based on a majority vote. A fair majority vote.
Dude, you have good but unsustainable ideas that, well, sort of do not work.
A shame some will try and think this represents the focus of the group as a whole!
Here's a better list of reforms:
http://scipiosforum.com/vital-reforms.html
If we want to save our water, air, agriculture and all of humanity we must end the geoengineering chemtrail operation of the US government and air force. This should be added to # 7 demand. If "7" represents God then the survival of humanity based on your #7 should include putting an end to stratospheric manipulation and weather modification and the poisoning of our sky and the killing of our bees and plants. Chemtrails increase asthma, breathing disorders, kill our plants and are implemented under US Code Section 50 title 1520. All occupy wall street protesters and leaders please acknowledge this US Code. http://www.skyhighway.com/~chemtrails/docs/U_S_%20Code_Title_50_Chapter_32_Section_1520a.html
[Deleted]
Just thought of 2 more.
NO to the Keystone XL Tar Sans pipeline.
NO Fracking.
you are dumber than a stone Loyd!
you are dumber than a stone Loyd!
The Occupation of WALL STREET is a formidable beginning to what may very well be the most significant popular protest ever, which has already had a significant impact on focusing attention and raising the discussion. But it’s okay to think concretely about some real demands for change. Calling attention to gross abuses, both financial and social injustices, is a good start. But there can be specific transforming ideas that could be focus points for real, and positive change. A bail-out for students with college loans…cost-cutting regulation of medicines and drugs, shutting down (legally) fracking and dirty oil exploration in the oil flats. Ending the billions upon billions of wasted dollars fighting in Afghanistan…an end to loopholes and tax breaks for the rich, even agricultural subsidies for various land barons who are paid not to grow cotton or raise sheep. This laundry list is just a few ideas that might resonate with both media and generally with interested citizens who need to see and deserve to have real change and not simply be consumed by a loud but ineffective media circus.
S. R. Lavin
End the military industrial complex, outlaw all lobbying, a huge investment in the US infrastructure, bring back Glass Stegal, abolish or modify free trade agreements so they benefit people not corporate profits, a full time 32 hour work week to get more Americans employed, paper ballots for all elections, overturn citizen's united, single payer health care, investigate the white collar crooks who crashed the economy and treat them as enemy combatants, end the drug war, raise taxes on the rich.
This list of reforms is far better. You won't get most Americans to agree on a $20 min wage or open borders.
http://scipiosforum.com/vital-reforms.html
3 Reasons why nuclear power is harmful and needs to be dissolved
Nuclear waste is a huge problem, the UK alone has 10,000 tons of nuclear waste... It is often said that nuclear waste has a half-life of 100,000 years (how will we get rid of it!?!!??!)
COST - is infinite
Peak Uranium - we only have about 60 years of Uranium left in resources - if electricity generation from nuclear grows steadily, this figure will fall, to the point where if all the world's electricity were generated with nuclear, we'd have around 3 years supply left
This was taken from the Transition Handbook From Oil Dependency to local Resilience by Rob Hopkins - read it it will change you, changed me!
can we add taking back the federal reserve? the federal reserve is made up of private banks that control our money and circulation of money, not to mention bernanke who seems to control the distribution of taxpayers money - lets take back the control of our hard earned money
An inclusive document may best serve the cause by being concise and narrowly focused despite the fairly broad agenda. In the interest of “Awareness, Education and Inclusivity” I would like to propose the following resolution which includes a list of demands:
We the people of the United States of America (or we the people of Occupy Charleston, SC), in an effort to further the vision of our Founding Fathers, of a nation governed by the people and for the people, do hereby petition the government for a redress of the following grievances:
Accountability
Whereas, no criminal convictions have been imposed on Board members and Executives of Goldman Sachs, Bank of America and other Wall Street companies who hedge funds against there own products and profited from the recent recession, and
Whereas, these same Wall Street companies benefited from American taxpayer funds to be bailed out, continue to hoard cash and continue to maximize record profits from the overworked and indentured middle class, and
Whereas, no criminal convictions have been imposed on Executives and those responsible for the British Petroleum disaster in the Gulf of Mexico, and
Whereas, corporations are not held criminally liable by the United States federal government for human rights violations in foreign or domestic places, and
Whereas, the Federal Reserve has never been audited (fact check needed here) or otherwise adequately supervised, and
Whereas, corporate board members continue to use the corporate veil to avoid being criminally liable for their companies’ impacts on people, places and our planet;
Corruption
Whereas, Citizens United v. FCC legitimized corporations unlimited funding of political campaigns, and
Whereas, it is impossible for individuals to compete with billion dollar corporations for influence over our political leaders, and
Whereas, the companies and industries regulated by the federal government regularly recruit government regulators with large salaries creating a lack of genuineness in crafting and complying with reasonable regulations, and
Whereas, one corporation has more political influence than one million individuals, and
Whereas, a corporation cannot vote as an individual but may contribute unlimited amounts of money to political campaigns;
Equitability
Whereas, the number of Americans living in poverty continues to increase, and
Whereas, median income in America continues to decline, and
Whereas, the number one cause of bankruptcy in America is due to medical bills, and
Whereas, minimum wage is not sufficient to foster a society full of healthy family life, and
Whereas, the middle and working class continues to be distressed at the hands of big oil, big insurances, big coal and big banks;
Now, therefore be it resolved that we the people of the United States (or we the people of Occupy Charleston) demand a meaningful redress of the heretofore grievances and do hereby demand:
I realize that this does not nearly address all of the issues outlined above. Additionally, there are many varying degrees of agreement on any given list of issues. If we can get the corporations out of politics, then all of the other issues can be decided through a democratic process. The unifying theme is the corporations puppeteering our politics. If we can remove that then all of the other issues get resolved through a more democratic process. My hope is that by sticking to the theme of we are the 99%, whatever we publish will appeal to (almost) all of the 99%.
Number 7 can be removed for two reasons: 1. health care is a divisive issue and 2. a living wage will include allocation for health care needs
WAY TOO MANY DEMANDS. They need to be clear and concise. Our biggest issue is $. We know that.
We need and deserve universal health care. However, I think we need two systems. Keep the private system, yet require them to pay a percentage of profits to fund the public system that assures EVERYONE coverage. This is NOT a novel idea, South American countries and countries in Europe already do this!!!! For example, I'm an RN, the pay the staff pathetic wages and make record profits. There is NO reason UPMC can't help subsidize a public plan.
The first thing that needs to be done is a COMPLETE boycott of Walmart. Just don't shop there. Its a pretty simple idea that has the ability to make a big splash. That place should be EMPTY all over the country indefinitely until a plan is put in place that will bring 50% of all of their manufacturing jobs BACK to the United States of America. Either that, or they should be taxed more if they want to continue the outsourcing of our liberties. What would upset Wall Street more than one of their cash cow holdings to plummet into free-fall.
I gather this is how Obama plans to stay in office. I am hopeful others find it as silly as I do and that the violence that the unions will bring to bear eventually will be handled well by local police and that media coverage will finally begin treating this Obama and Soros led attempt to thwart the ballot box for exactly what it is. Manufacturing protests and crises has allowed dictators to take over more backward countries. It should not be able to happen here, but we must be vigilant.
While the the protestors are ignorant and their demands misguided and silly, those behind it -- Obama and Soros and the unions -- are not.
Mr. Hart, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this site is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul!
Mr. Hart, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this site is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul!
Mr. Hart, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this site is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul!
These are the stupidest demands I ever heard. How rediculous to think they are fair or would do annything but destrroy the country. Move to the communnist country of your choice if you believe in that system. it has proven to be untennable. But ddon't let that sto you. I was hoping that this movement had some actual good ideas or cnsidered thought behind it. But I guess that was hoping too much.
Earning a wage for not being employed is ridiculous. To feed and give health care to its people should always be a core responsibility of a government in my opinion, but you cant pay people for doing nothing. Was that supposed to mean a welfare and self reliance programs overhaul? Because that's something that can and should be done.
I'm gonna go sniff some glue, reread this, and hope it makes more sense
I'm gonna go sniff some glue, reread this, and hope it makes more sense
A few of these are just silly and disctracting.
Free college... we cant even give a decent high school education for free. I would understand demanding reforms and improvements on the system that already exists. Most people don't learn anything useful, or that they couldn't discover on there own in college as it is. Improve the core system and move away from the myth that college is necessary to anyone outside of the sciences and professional fields.
Racial and gender equality are already on the books.
Complete debt forgiveness is never going to happen, and maybe probably shouldn't.
Also, nuclear power is far safer and cleaner than a vast majority of people want to believe it be. I don't understand why this is even on here when you're simultaneously asking for a fast halt to reliance on fossil fuels.
Honestly, a lot of the doable demands here aren't all that dissimilar to the demands in Obama's American Jobs Act. As an organization, even a loose one, you might want to take a look at that and push from there.
I'm gonna go sniff some glue, reread this, and hope it makes more sense
I'm gonna go sniff some glue, reread this, and hope it makes more sense
Divided we fall, United we stand. We must unite for this to be taken serious and for any real action to take place. They want us to be divided. Stick together everyone for our nation!!!
A little simpler? How's this -
REQUIRE THAT EVERYONE PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE OF THE TAX BURDEN SO AS TO PROVIDE, AS PER THE US CONSTITUTION, A SOCIETY THAT "PROMOTES THE GENERAL WELFARE" OF US ALL.
Go back to the 1950's tax structure, when our economy grew at its fastest pace EVER - income (including capital gains, etc - NO GAMES) over $1,000,000 is taxed at 65%.
Boom - deficit gone. Problem solved.
Gimme, gimme, gimme. After you destroy all those who actually produce something, who is going to be around to provide all that you demand for free? Useful idiots.
Proposed solutions to our nation's problems:
ABOLISH FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING This would include the institution known as the Federal Reserve. Our government must then create a congressional banking committee, whose members will be appointed and approved by all three branches of government every four years, that will print Debt-Free U.S. Banking Notes backed by our precious metals reserve and U.S. Credit. This will be owned entirely by the United States Government and it will be illegal for this institution to accept interest laden capital loans from any individual or entity, whether foreign or domestic. It will also be illegal for this institution to lend interest laden capital to any individual or entity, whether foreign or domestic. It will be illegal for any domestic entity or individual to lend interest laden capital to any individual or entity, whether foreign or domestic, and conversely, it will be illegal for any domestic entity or individual to accept interest laden capital from any individual or entity, whether foreign or domestic.
END THE MILITARY CAMPAIGN IN IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN, AND LIBYA This does not mean setting a timetable for 2035. This means pulling all of our troops out of these countries today. This will include selling the Iraq embassy for upwards of 1.5 billion USD.
ABOLISH GOVERNMENT DEFICITS It will be illegal for government spending to exceed government receipts. This means that the federal government as well as state governments cannot, under any circumstances, incur a deficit.
ABOLISH CONFLICT OF INTEREST CAMPAIGN DONATIONS It will be illegal for any corporation, political action committee, lobby group, or any non-governmental organization, whether foreign or domestic, to provide capital of any kind to any politician or government employee. It will be illegal for any politician or government employee to own stock, in any business, of any kind, whether foreign or domestic. It will be illegal for any politician or government employee to accept capital from any foreign entity or individual. These terms will also apply to any individual campaigning for any kind of government office, whether state or federal.
In short, political whores are not allowed in the United States of America. You are a servant not an oligarch.
Yours,
Daniel Gosser
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pin8fbdGV9Y
Here's my critique: http://infrequentrant.blogspot.com/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-proposed-demands.html
Lets start with people losing their homes due to the mortgage bundeling and other underhanded tricks the banks used that has created "The Housing Crisis". The whitehouse clamors about concumer confidance and the lack of spending, well heads up to the politicians on the hill, it's difficult to have concumer confidance when friends, family members and neighbors are being forclosed on. When your home is worth less than you owe on it and that you're just one paycheck away from being behind on your mortgage. Couple this with the ineffectiveness of the Home Affordability Program and you have yourself a population unable and unwilling to part with hard earned dollars. Let's fix this!
Demand one: Full disclosure as to who actually owns a persons home. Exactly whom did the bank or mortgage company sell your mortgage too.
Demand two: Stop credit reporting on peolple in loss mitigation. People who are behind with a mortagage payment but who are actively working on getting a home affordability loan.
Demand three: Un-do the damage to credit for those already hindered with bad credit due to their mortgage payments.
Demand four: Full disclosure on whether or not your home is FDIC. Does the government cover the banks loss if they foreclose on you.
Demand five: Revamp the home affordbility loan program so that it works and so that a homeowner with an average education can actually negotiate the process.
Demand six: Police the banks so that MORE loans are being re-written and so that MORE people are able to stay in their homes.
And here's a thought , what about solidarity among the american people? How about no-one buys a foreclosed home? That might slow the banks down. And that brings me to...
Demand seven: No overseas parties can purchase residential properties or mortages.
My final comment; As americans, during this difficult time, lets be pro-active. I'm thrilled to see the protest now let's organize and put our best efforts where are indignation is. If our government can't keep free clinics and parks and free daycares open then we will. Get booths set-up to get qualified people to register and volunteer their time. President Kennedy said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". I would amend that quote to better fit our lives today and say, "Ask not what your government can do for each american, but ask what you as an american can do for another".
============================================================
An Amendment to Preclude Corporations from Claiming Bill of Rights Protections
SECTION 1. The U.S. Constitution protects only the rights of living human beings.
SECTION 2. Corporations and other institutions granted the privilege to exist shall be subordinate to any and all laws enacted by citizens and their elected governments.
SECTION 3. Corporations and other for-profit institutions are prohibited from attempting to influence the outcome of elections, legislation or government policy through the use of aggregate resources or by rewarding or repaying employees or directors to exert such influence.
SECTION 4. Congress shall have power to implement this article by appropriate legislation.
Oh ya, Lloyd, just one more thing. Which fascist policing departmants will force ALL these new laws upon the people and how many will go to jail for not obeying? How many lives will YOUR police have to destroy to FORCE these rules on the people?? You are steering us right into the George Orwell 1984 socialist nightmare state. Maybe you should add one more demand. #15 - Gave all the cops black uniforms and machine guns to enforce all these rules.
[EDiT] sorry, i was working off a different version of the demands. I SEE NOTHING HERE ABOUT CORPORATE PERSONHOOD OR KEEPING PRIVATE WEALTH OUT OF GOVERNMENT AND POLITICS. Further, I see little emphasis of underlining the democratic rights of citizens, and curtailing bill of rights claims by corporations. WHY ARE WE OCCUPYING WALL STREET IF WE HAVE NOTHING TO SAY ABOUT THE CONFLUENCE OF CAPITAL AND GOVERNMENT? This should be our EMPHASIS, otherwise its senseless to occupy Wall Street; we might as well be marching on DC if we cannot acknowledge the corruption of politics by private wealth.
Demand for a constitutional amendment banning private capital from elections, and stripping corporations of any consideration of legal "personhood".
It seems our unifying, core belief is in direct, robust democracy that privileges individual citizens over private wealth in the democratic process. Many of us stand for an end to private capital having an influence on democracy and government. This can be achieved, for example, by demanding:
1.) Amendment to the constitution excluding corporations from claiming bill of rights protections
2.) An Amendment to Reverse Buckley v. Valeo and Dominance of Wealth in Electoral Politics
3.) Demand congress pass House Joint Resolution 28: An Amendment to Create a Constitutional Right to Vote
Chineese have only one party. We have two - what a choice!
Oh ya, Lloyd, just one more thing. Which fascist policing departmants will force ALL these new laws upon the people and how many will go to jail for not obeying? How many lives will YOUR police have to destroy to FORCE these rules on the people?? You are steering us right into the George Orwell 1984 socialist nightmare state. Maybe you should add one more demand. #15 - Gave all the cops black uniforms and machine guns to enforce all these rules.
Demands that I deem important:
Demand four: Free college education. Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand. Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants. Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment. Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.
My demands: The Right to Health; stop using antibiotics, hormones, pesticides, genetic engineered food, ban monsanto, promote healthy whole foods in school cafeterias, advertise vegetarianism and veganism on TV, make vegetarian food available in all restaurants, inform public of negative health effects of eating meat, make it against the law for people to be sued for saying that they will not eat meat anymore like when Oprah was sued. We should have the freedom of speech and the freedom of living healthy. More subsides for vegetables and fruits to help end the obesity, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, etc, epidemics.
Our system obviously has a lot of problems. But as the 99%, we need to focus on what binds us all together, and keep it as simple as possible to promote unity.
Here is the demand everyone I've spoken with unanimously agrees upon:
CREATE FAIR-WAGED JOBS FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS AND POOR THROUGH TAXING THE WEALTHIEST 1%, CLOSING CORPORATE LOOPHOLES, AND ENDING THE WARS IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN.
We all know the greed and corruption are out of control. We don't need to harp on that any longer. Let's focus on simple solutions that serve the greater good - and the most fair methods to achieve them. Including sacrificing from ALL OF US TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. I'll be on Wall Street all week if you have any ideas you want to run by me.
who the f is lloyd?
So let me get this straight: You want infrastructure spending (ie destroying forests, rivers, wetlands for roads, electrical girds etc) ....which costs money (i think you want 1 trillion dollars of this) without the use of debt (which is required to fund these projects)... while eliminating the use of fossil fuels (ie firing every single person working for any energy related company) and shifting to alternative energy (which is still in its infancy an requires more investment ... debt)??? Look, our nation is going through an immensely difficult time, no argument there. And you’ve touched on critical issues. People are making less money and even less are working. But half whit hippie shenanigans wont help the situation…
You want alternative energy to takeoff? Go to school (there’s an invention called schools loans… ie debt to help if you cant pay). Become a scientist and discover a cheaper way to improve solar cells, hydropower, wind turbine efficiency. You want healthcare policy change? Become a lawyer … then a senator… even president and change the policy! You want give everyone a guaranteed living wage? Become an economist… improve on labor theory… rewrite the wealth of nations… make the change yourself. You want change … don’t just hold up signs and smoke pot while singing kumbaya… make the change yourself!
So let me get this straight: You want infrastructure spending (ie destroying forests, rivers, wetlands for roads, electrical girds etc) ....which costs money (i think you want 1 trillion dollars of this) without the use of debt (which is required to fund these projects)... while eliminating the use of fossil fuels (ie firing every single person working for any energy related company) and shifting to alternative energy (which is still in its infancy an requires more investment ... debt)??? Look, our nation is going through an immensely difficult time, no argument there. And you’ve touched on critical issues. People are making less money and even less are working. But half whit hippie shenanigans wont help the situation…
You want alternative energy to takeoff? Go to school (there’s an invention called schools loans… ie debt to help if you cant pay). Become a scientist and discover a cheaper way to improve solar cells, hydropower, wind turbine efficiency. You want healthcare policy change? Become a lawyer … then a senator… even president and change the policy! You want give everyone a guaranteed living wage? Become an economist… improve on labor theory… rewrite the wealth of nations… make the change yourself. You want change … don’t just hold up signs and smoke pot while singing kumbaya… make the change yourself!
So let me get this straight: You want infrastructure spending (ie destroying forests, rivers, wetlands for roads, electrical girds etc) ....which costs money (i think you want 1 trillion dollars of this) without the use of debt (which is required to fund these projects)... while eliminating the use of fossil fuels (ie firing every single person working for any energy related company) and shifting to alternative energy (which is still in its infancy an requires more investment ... debt)??? Look, our nation is going through an immensely difficult time, no argument there. And you’ve touched on critical issues. People are making less money and even less are working. But half whit hippie shenanigans wont help the situation…
You want alternative energy to takeoff? Go to school (there’s an invention called schools loans… ie debt to help if you cant pay). Become a scientist and discover a cheaper way to improve solar cells, hydropower, wind turbine efficiency. You want healthcare policy change? Become a lawyer … then a senator… even president and change the policy! You want give everyone a guaranteed living wage? Become an economist… improve on labor theory… rewrite the wealth of nations… make the change yourself. You want change … don’t just hold up signs and smoke pot while singing kumbaya… make the change yourself!
MAKE THE ORIGIN OF THOSE DEMANDS CLEARER.
Don't you know nobody pays attention on the web? Make the disclaimer bold and red at the beginning AND end of the text...
This is hurting OWS... Check Google results... This is WAY UP for "occupy wall street" - Change the title to make it sound non-official - "User submitted" doesn't show in google results... You gotta monitor google and Analytics and see what's happening...
Why not just do away with all money? Wouldn't it be great if we could just go to the store and get what we need or want, We could just do jobs we love on days when we feel like working, go on five star vacations several times a year, I am sure that no one would ever take advantage of this system. Wow that would be great!
This all boils down to one demand. . . People first, shareholders last.
No coorporate personhood. No elected officials may work for lobbyist after quitting. No retired militarly may work for military vendors after retiring. Pulbic options for healthcare.
No coorporate personhood. No elected officials may work for lobbyist after quitting. No retired militarly may work for military vendors after retiring. Pulbic options for healthcare.
Fix news wi8ll tell us anything because they absolutely part of the same problem. Occupy Wall Street's PO)INT is Crystal CLEAR!!!!!
Most of these are too vague and unrealistic. We don't have trillions of dollars right now, and if we paid everybody 20 bucks an hour to work we'd have massive inflation. Remember it's not just America who's in a recession; the whole world is going broke. We should forgive debt. We should focus on abolishing corporate personhood. We have to be specific. HOW will we have free education? We must know where that money will come from if we want to be taken seriously. We're playing with grown-ups now, and they're used to treating us like children.
Need to simplify a bit here folks. Some of these might as well be asking for immediate "peace on earth and goodwill towards man". Most of these things are wishlist items that will NEVER happen until we reform this tub back into a democracy.
1) Get big money out of politics
2) Get big money off "welfare"
Without these two, none of the rest of it is possible. My personal #3: "Simplify legislation: ONE issue per bill, NO glomming".
If this is NOT the official list of demands of OWS, then why is it still posted on occupywallst.org and is the #2 hit on Google search? Is it, or is it not the list of demands?
Don't fall in line with the Oligarchical Media rhetoric that there is too great a list of demands to be met, that would be unethical. Instead list all the demands and create a real voice. The nature of all the demands can be realized once the list is complete. The process to be used is similar to algebra to quantify the base of the complexity of their nature and to bring equality to both sides of the equal sign, or rather from misunderstanding to understanding. In short we can better understand the nature of the problem if all facets of the problem are spoken of. There wont be a quick answer, this is already been in works for a long time, the solution will take a long time. The resources for quantifying the demands are in existence , corporate marketing has used such types of process for decades. We can do this.
I love the open borders idea, it is an excellent way to destroy the unions. Any foreigner will be able to start a business here, and bring in their own loyal people to work for them. Living free off the government, means these workers will be able to work for less. They can get minority tax breaks, and send most of their earnings back to their home country. This lack of revenue collections will mean less money for the public unions. It really is an excellent idea.
I LOVE THIS LIST OF DEMANDS!!!!
I go over EVERY ONE of them to explain how GREAT they are.
http://slashdot.org/journal/271808/occupy-wall-street-demands
Critical!
Demand #10 MUST include a demand for a form of PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION!
This is likely the single most important demand, since it is the current, flawed plurality voting system in the United States (and in Canada and the UK) that is responsible for the disconnect between what the people want and what their Congress does and looks like in terms of party representation!
If the public has only two viable political party options (due to the defacto 2 party dynamic generated by the plurality voting system), the public does not have the range of political party choice they need in order to have a sense that the system is legitimate. Right now, huge numbers of votes are wasted in each district race, as the winner only needs more votes than any other candidate. When there are 3 major candidates, the margin of victory declines to only 33%+1 vote, when there are 4 major candidates, the victory margin declines further to as little as 25+1, and with 5 major party candidates, the victory margin is only 20%+1 of the vote! This means the more party choice voters are given, the WORSE (less democratically) the current system operates! American has responded to this arithmetic problem with plurality by FORCING you to choose between only 2 political party options, but this is a recipe for a two-party dictatorship, is what you currently have. The other answer to is CHANGE THE VOTING SYSTEM to one which CAN provide democratic results with 3, 4, 5 or more major parties.
With a Mixed Member Proportional voting system, YOUR VOTES WOULD ALWAYS COUNT EQUALLY towards representation in the Congress! This simply correction has profound implications for governance and decision-making. It means parties must treat each other in a more balanced and measured way. No more mindless mud-slinging, because your party may need to work with that other party in order to form government.
The current binary oppositional decision-making model created by the plurality voting formula in the United States is the single most important reason why Americans feel politics is a sham, and indeed, it is the single most important reason there is a flawed decision-making processes in the Congress. Not every issue can be boiled down to just yes or no, black or white!
By contrast, the German Mixed Member Proportional voting system allows for 5 or 6 major parties to win representation in parliament (Bundestag), so there will be more than just two proposals for every issue, and the voters in turn always see their votes counting towards representation in that parliament. This is because the second part of the two-part ballot has a party preference section, which always counts towards the total vote each party receives, and this second part of the ballot DETERMINES THE PERCENTAGE OF OVERALL SEATS THAT PARTY WILL END UP WITH IN THE PARLIAMENT!
The German system also forces all parties to work together to build consensus: no one party can govern by themselves as no one party out of 5 or 6 can generally win 50% of the popular vote (and even if that happens, in Germany, that party will ask a 2nd party to join them in a governing coalition because it would seem dictatorial for them to govern alone!).
PLEASE INCLUDE THIS! I WROTE MY MASTER'S THESIS ON THE ISSUE OF THE IMPORTANCE OF VOTING SYSTEMS AND THEIR EFFECTS ON DECISION-MAKING!
Also, you shouldn't ban private insurance companies, but place stricter regulations. The US should create a single payer public healthcare system, but that shouldn't stop people to provide health services that a potential basic public healthcare system might not cover
Ron Pual's campaign message is "End the Fed". Now we know who to vote for.
Demand four sounds a bit impossible during this economic climate. Perhaps government-assisted college fees could be a more reasonable demand. In Australia, you'd be looking at paying 35000 dollars for college fees per year. But because we're assisted by the government, we only pay 5000 per year upfront/500 dollars per year student loans
Way too many demands there needs to be a clear focus point. Right now it seems like everybody is standing there for different reasons, that's not an efficient protest. Some of them are ridiculous also. Open boarders? Come on, that would not work.
The open brderpolicy would not work for many reasons otherwise everything is very true opening the borders is not an awnser though it will bring more crime more people willing to work for less taking jobs in turn. People no matter how much you change greed will always exsist
The open brderpolicy would not work for many reasons otherwise everything is very true opening the borders is not an awnser though it will bring more crime more people willing to work for less taking jobs in turn. People no matter how much you change greed will always exsist
Lloyd... this proposed List of Demands is totally unrealistic and is being used as fodder by those seeking to discredit the OWS movement.
I for one don't endorse it. We know things are very wrong and need fixing but an unreasonable list of demands sure isn't what we want out there as our official demands.
Doesn't help that one cannot phone you because your voice mail isn't set up. Too many people calling you to discuss this issue perhaps?
I demand everyone in support of these demads to be entitled to a FREE glass of Jim Jones koolaid. Trust me, its free, it must make your life better.
The note that this is NOT an actual official list of demands from Occupy Wallstreet should be in a bigger font. Based on the comments people are reading the "Proposed List of Demands" in big print and ignoring the "not an official list of demands" in the considerably smaller print.
I demand everyone in support of these demads to be entitled to a FREE glass of Jim Jones koolaid. Trust me, its free, it must make your life better.
I love these demands! It is about time, let's have the same opportunities that other countries allow for their citizens!
I love these demands! It is about time, let's have the same opportunities that other countries allow for their citizens!
One demand - give government back to the people: “It is, Sir, the people’s Constitution, the people's government, made for the people, made by the people, and answerable to the people. The people of the United States have declared that this Constitution shall be the supreme law.” Daniel Webster in the U.S. Senate, on January 26, 1830. “Democracy is direct self-government over all the people, for all the people, by all the people.” Theodore Parker at the Music Hall in Boston, Massachusetts on July 4, 1858. “We here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom; and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.” President Abraham Lincoln in the closing words of his Gettysburg Address, delivered on November 19, 1863.
My post was deleted... apparently this site does not appreciate free speech... trying again:
I agree with none of these... here are mine:
LOL. I have more!
If you meet all these requirements, I will agree to more college subsidization. Deal?
About the author: Hi. I pay twice in federal taxes each month as I do in all my other monthly bills (house, cars etc). I am a socially moderate, political libertarian with strong conservative economic views.
Property is the fruit of labor-property is desirable - it is a positive good in the world. That some should be rich, shows that others may become rich, and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise. Let not who is houseless pull down the house of another; but let him labor diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence..." — Abraham Lincoln (reply to the New York Workingmen’s Democratic Republican Association, Mar. 21, 1864)
Property is the fruit of labor-property is desirable - it is a positive good in the world. That some should be rich, shows that others may become rich, and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise. Let not who is houseless pull down the house of another; but let him labor diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence..." — Abraham Lincoln (reply to the New York Workingmen’s Democratic Republican Association, Mar. 21, 1864)
Why don't you start with taking a bath. You will all feel a lot better
I agree with none of these... here are mine:
LOL. I have more!
If you meet all these requirements, I will agree to more college subsidization. Deal?
About the author: Hi. I pay twice in federal taxes each month as I do in all my other monthly bills (house, cars etc). I am a socially moderate, political libertarian with strong conservative economic views.
Go fuck yourself, free loaders.
Though I agree with a lot of what you have as demands, you also need to add to this about our government. Limit anyone running for a government office starting in 2012, that it should only be for four years and no more. No more holding these office positions as a life time career. AND that they only get paid $50,000.00 a year for the position. The same salary as middle class makes or use to make. This will get rid of the corruption currently in office and to make sure that whoever holds these positions, that they know they work for the people, and not for corporations...etc. Also that it is illegal for them to take any money or help from corporations, special interest groups....etc. Basically government needs to get back to working for the 99% and not the 1%.
Demand number one should be Stop the WAR. Spend those trillions on american people .
I am a conservative who believes in the message of ending corporate greed. However, if Occupy Wall Street is just a tool of the progressive movement I want nothing to do with it.
The best chance we all have is to come together and agree that corporations that are greedy AND ship jobs overseas cannot be tolerated any longer.
Why not just demand a totalitarian regime. Freedom is obviously your greatest enemy . what you need to do is real National Socialism in action. Comparisons to Hitler would be historically accurate. Your movement truely mirrors his. Hey if you do get power, you can just smash all opposition, start by digging the mass graves people in movements like yours are so historically time after time famous for.
It is time to name individuals that should be exposesd for the financial disaster and discrepancy between the 1% of rich and the rest of us. Blankfein,(Goldman Sachs) Dimon, (J.P.Morgan), Charles Holliday (Bank of America). Why has the governmant oversight agencies not brought an aaction aginst these people to recover some of the wealth that they have stolen from the people. Some of the shareholders are as much to blame for their complacency Other individauls have benefited under resulting from their memebrship to the "inner circle"
How about a demonstration at 15 Central Park West where many of these CEO's and investors live in unadulterated wealth.
It is time to name individuals that should be exposesd for the financial disaster and discrepancy between the 1% of rich and the rest of us. Blankfein,(Goldman Sachs) Dimon, (J.P.Morgan), Charles Holliday (Bank of America). Why has the governmant oversight agencies not brought an aaction aginst these people to recover some of the wealth that they have stolen from the people. Some of the shareholders are as much to blame for their complacency Other individauls have benefited under resulting from their memebrship to the "inner circle"
How about a demonstration at 15 Central Park West where many of these CEO's and investors live in unadulterated wealth.
A good point, How about something simple to start one post suggested we vote for revolution. Why don't we try that? Lets figure out a simple measure that lets the people state which way they want to go in general and get it on the next nationwide ballot.
Why not just demand a totalitarian regime. Freedom is obviously your greatest enemy . what you need to do is real National Socialism in action. Comparisons to Hitler would be historically accurate. Your movement truely mirrors his. Hey if you do get power, you can just smash all opposition, start by digging the mass graves people in movements like yours are so historically time after time famous for.
Why not just demand a totalitarian regime. Freedom is obviously your greatest enemy . what you need to do is real National Socialism in action. Comparisons to Hitler would be historically accurate. Your movement truely mirrors his. Hey if you do get power, you can just smash all opposition, start by digging the mass graves people in movements like yours are so historically time after time famous for.
I agree in spirit with all of this, I do share concern about #9 though. I think the key here is that if borders are open people will not be documented / registered to pay taxes. I think there should be more detail there, if getting documented were easier and migrants paid taxes then maybe. Personally I agree with navingrey, pure open borders would cause a negative impact on wages. But I also agree we must change immigration and make it more fair.
Wall St. is the root of all these issues. The protesters know why they are there they know what they are up against. I agree with all these demands. Ask the japanese what they think of nuclear power plants. I guess its true, "Who feels it knows it".
Demand number one should be Stop the WAR. Spend those trillions on american people .
The demands sound great and I agree with Most of them to varrying extent. But again these are only bandaids to the problem. The one issue that will cut to the root is getting money out of politics. It does not matter what demands are met,or who we think is the next messiah in politics, they will one day have to at some degree repay the special interests. So independent, republican, or democrat. what we can and must unite upon, is fighting for our voice back. That is changing the way campaign are funded. "Get corporate money out of politics." Cut out that cancer and we will se America return to greatness. I supper and am berry proud of all of u out there fighting for our country back. god bless you all
Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live. THIS SUCKS...Forget it!
Now.......Your demands for Wall st./Banks/ Fat cats to pay their fair-better share???? Why do the republicans fight for them so hard??? Show me the money....they are in their pockets and cannot be weaned without an axe.....vote them out.....NOW. Boehner-Canter-McConnell...Blue bloods---Silver spooners. Our president Obama....Lives higher then an African King...Y'all come back to my earth Michelle...no $1500.00 a night hotel junkets with your entourage.
Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live. THIS SUCKS...Forget it!
Now.......Your demands for Wall st./Banks/ Fat cats to pay their fair-better share???? Why do the republicans fight for them so hard??? Show me the money....they are in their pockets and cannot be weaned without an axe.....vote them out.....NOW. Boehner-Canter-McConnell...Blue bloods---Silver spooners. Our president Obama....Lives higher then an African King...Y'all come back to my earth Michelle...no $1500.00 a night hotel junkets with your entourage.
Unrealistic spoiled brats...get a clue. Better yet, get a job, any job.
I noticed the disclaimer about the irresponsible Fox News/Commentary Agency reporting the List of Demands YOU posted on YOUR website.
I was wondering if The Huffington Post, ABC, NBC, CBS and all the other responsible News/Commentary Agencies who reported and criticized the exact same list reach your desired level of Journalistic Integrity?
I noticed the disclaimer about the irresponsible Fox News/Commentary Agency reporting the List of Demands YOU posted on YOUR website.
I was wondering if The Huffington Post, ABC, NBC, CBS and all the other responsible News/Commentary Agencies who reported and criticized the exact same list reach your desired level of Journalistic Integrity?
I have to admit I'm WAY more impressed by the substance of these comments than I had anticipated. But I'm seeing one major distraction. While I have no intentions of alienating Libertarians, it seems they are intent on sidetracking us with the same Ron Paul-derived slogans. We may want to consider making the option of hiding their comments available for those of us that want to focus? No offense to them, but while Ron Paul would make an awesome Grandpop, he would be a terrible president so please stop sidetracking us.
"The First Problem" Money in politics. Without fixing that we'll never get to the others.
This is the most contradictory and absurd list ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get a life and grow up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Need to go after the source of the problems first, the Moonbats.
Congressional Reform Act of 2011
No Tenure / No Pension. Congressmen collect a salary while in off ice and receive no pay when they are out of office.
Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security. All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.
Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.
Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.
Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.
Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.
All contracts with past and present Congressmen are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen. Congress men made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.
Need to go after the source of the problems first, the Moonbats.
Congressional Reform Act of 2011
No Tenure / No Pension. Congressmen collect a salary while in off ice and receive no pay when they are out of office.
Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security. All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.
Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.
Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.
Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.
Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.
All contracts with past and present Congressmen are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen. Congress men made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.
Who is going to pay for all of this? The 10% of tax payers who are supporting the 46% who pay no taxes?
Be careful of the Laws of Unintended Consequences. If you make all of these demands, who will then pay the billions to the non-profits which are primarily supported by businesses, high net worth and high income individuals and families?
This movement is ill conceived - the government wastes more money than the financial services industry could ever pay in increased taxes.
I admire the optimism, but someone please take these down quickly before anyone else sees them. They are embarrassing to the people supporting this worldwide. Lets wait until we have some experts in politics and economics who can make a more realistic list.
Don't lose the reason why the movement started: finding our self and group humanity. Remembering compassion all over again. Don't mind the details. Focus and feel the compassion. Everything will come in its rythm. Respect the thinkers but tell them about compassion and love. It's not about who is wright and who is wrong. It's about being hyman again.
Don't lose the reason why the movement started: finding our self and group humanity. Remembering compassion all over again. Don't mind the details. Focus and feel the compassion. Everything will come in its rythm. Respect the thinkers but tell them about compassion and love. It's not about who is wright and who is wrong. It's about being hyman again.
Don't lose the reason why the movement started: finding our self and group humanity. Remembering compassion all over again. Don't mind the details. Focus and feel the compassion. Everything will come in its rythm. Respect the thinkers but tell them about compassion and love. It's not about who is wright and who is wrong. It's about being hyman again.
1: supply and demand. learn it, live with it. 2: and simultaneously shut down the healthcare system. 3: #1 = #3. Please see above. 4: Its called scholarships. Work hard you'll get some. 5: Good luck the technical issues behind this take more than just a demand to solve. I suggest learning some physics and thermodynamics. 6: Fair enough, now find that much money laying around in a giant pile somewhere... 7: And restoring rivers may actually cause more harm than good at this point. And you want to get rid of fossil fuels, I think Nuclear Plants do a good job of that last I checked. 8: We already have one of those. Try reading the constitutional amendments 9: Within our borders, this already exists. Last I checked Obama didn't have to let me go on vacation. 10: Ever heard of local election commissions? 11: Two Words. Economic. Suicide. 12: This doesn't even make sense. 13: Umm... This is effectively how things work already. No one is coerced into joining a union.
In short these are utterly ridiculous demands that have no bearing on reality. You might try living in reality sometime.
Im guessing this person is mentally challenged...Good luck little guy. Anyone following you are even more stupid for listening to these demands and everyone who has read these or heard these are even more stupid for having to listen to these ridiculous claims.
I agree that there should only be one or two demands, which truly strike at the core of the issue.
1.) Separation of Money and Politics (i.e. campaign finance overhaul).
2.) Institute a rock-solid, brutally enforced, standard livable minimum wage.
3.) Equalize and simplify the structure of income & asset taxation, and do not tax citizens living below said livable wage. Also, forgive/subsidize federal student debt for graduates who are working below that wage.
That's it. The rest will cascade from there. Big businesses will be forced to completely revamp their exploitative employment models: and that ethical sewer will back up onto Wall Street. The businesses that can survive with a fair model will prosper, and the rest can go to hell. Students and recent graduates will have a fighting chance to live and work. Politicians who have relied entirely on corporate subsidies to reach or remain in office will fall off the wagon, and will no longer be able to misrepresent their actual constituents.
-JZ
in all these demands i do not see anything that bring accountability to politics or anything that punishes our politicians and wall street d-bags that ruined our great empire. WTF mate you friends with obama/soros? accountability is one of the many Occupy Movements key ideas.
Peace Lloyd. These demands speak directly to what's holding us back from reaching our full potential. We need to break free from the industrialized age and move into the age of technology and information. We also need to apply science into our social system so that we can arrive at decisions based on a scientific method, which could determine the quickest and most efficient way of solving our problems.
I agree, WAY WAY WAY too many demands. The movement needs a singular narrow focus--END CORPORATISM! Once corporate money is out of government--then we can make demands. Only then will government be answerable to the people, not the corporations. Posting a laundry list of leftist demands will only alienate the mainstream. It's very bad gu gu. You should be pointing out that the Founders very much hated corporations--it's the reason for the Boston Tea Party--it was about the influence of the trans-national corporation, The East India Company--and how the Colonists had no representation in Parliament. Taxes were the sound-bite used to animate the direct action. It was mostly about representation. Read about the hidden history of corporations in America and lose the list of lefty demands...pleaseeeee. http://reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate_accountability/history_corporations_us.html
I think that there is room for two more demands equally as serious as the original thirteen: Demand fourteen: all unicorns will be required to gather in a semi-circle at dusk and kneel on one front leg facing the setting sun.
Demand fifteen: Anyone who makes over 250K (350 for couples) will be required to go to the protesters parent's home bi-weekly and make said protestors beds and wash their clothes to give their mothers a bit of a break.
http://www.economic-undertow.com/2011/10/08/days-of-rage/
Comments on Tentative List of Demands and Getting Really Angry!
Occupy Wall Street. YOUR DEMANDS CANNOT BE MET. It is economically impossible to meet EVERY SINGLE ONE. You would have better luck starting up Communist Russia, aka the Soviet Union. Get it through your thick skulls that you will NOT get what you want EVER. You want free college education BECAUSE you NEED to go and LEARN why all of those programs exist and why things are the way they are.
I laugh when I see "End Free Trade" because.... THAT IS WHAT AMERICA IS AND YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE THAT NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU TRY. Seriously what you are asking for is a perfect Communist Nation.
Answer to that: LIVE IN CHINA. They're the closest thing to a perfect communist nation. So, as many people say, either live with what we have and stop complaining, or GTFO.
By, Someone who cares about the American Dream and the truth behind Capitalism and the Freedoms we have earned.
8 demands are necessary to make up for the financial crisis caused by Wall Street. A realistic and useful list of Demands for Occupy Wall Street is as follows:
Namely: Ben Bernanke - Chairman of the Federal Reserve (Did nothing to regulate/prevent crisis) Timothy Geithner - Treasury Secretary (President of NY Federal Reserve during crisis, allowed 100% credit default payments to Goldman Sachs) William C Dudley - Chairman of NY Fed (ex Goldman Sachs) Mark Patterson - Chief of staff, Treasury Department (ex Goldman Sachs lobbyist) Lewis Sachs - Sr Treasury Advisor (ex Head of Tricadia hedge fund) Gary Gensler - Commodity Futures Trading Commision (ex Goldman Sachs, fought regulation) Mary Schapiro - Head of the SEC (ex FINRA) Rahm Emanuel - Chief of Staff (ex Freddie Mac director) Martin Feldstein - Economic advisory board Laura Tyson - Economic advisory board (Former Morgan Stanley director) Larry Summers - Chief economic advisor (De-regulated derivatives)
Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase, Citi, Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanly, Bear Sterns, Bank of America, and Lehman Brothers. For predatory lending, Countrywide.
A return of 60% of the funds paid by AIG and other insurers to the investment banks like Goldman Sachs for the 100% payment that was given for Credit Default Swaps.
Immediate investigation into the activity of Wall Street/financial firm executives for spending corporate money on prostitutes and entertainment, while billing the expense as a corporate expense and minimizing the corporate tax bill for their firm. This is tax evasion and fraud, and no investigation has ever taken place.
Immediate "Infrastructure Tax" on the top 1% of individuals and the top 20% of corporations for use of the United States infrastructure to gain disproportionate wealth during the years leading up to the financial crisis. These individuals and corporations made trillions of dollars from 2000 to 2007, and again in 2009 to 2011. They used the United States infrastructure and have not paid a fair tax on these revenues to support the infrastructure. This infrastructure is defined by the United States middle and lower class employees, our highway system, supply chain, and our telecommunications and internet infrastructure.
This "Infrastructure Tax" should be an immediate 40% of revenues (before deductions) made during 2009 and 2010 combined. Payable in monthly payments for 5 years.
12% interest per year paid to the US Treasury for all "Quantitative Easing" funds used by Investment Banks and other firms, in addition to paying back the principal.
Elimination of all tax for small businesses making less than $200,000 per year.
Major Regulatory reform-- re-institute the rules enacted before 1981. These rules were systematically removed by lobbying under Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, and GW Bush.
-- by MathMan
If there is free college, how would the professors, janitors, and all the others who help run the it get paid and be able to provide for their selves when they spend all their time teaching you all for free and have to get a part time job just to make it by? I think you all are not thinking clearly as well as anarchists. Go read the Constitution and look at what this country is based on. We can't have everything we want in this world because if we did then you all would demand more outrageous things. Yes, our government is messed up right now, only for the reason that they can not agree on anything. They are trying to please every one of us and that is impossible. Rethink on what you all are trying to accomplish with this "movement."
Haven't read all of the comments, but I have to agree I think that it's too long a list of demands, and too specific. I know that people are saying "this movement has to stand for something!" But what they really mean is "This movement has to follow a particular political party agenda that I agree with only part of but I have drunk the cool-aid and believe that that political party agenda is the only one that will work!"
In my humble opinion... fight the bullshit. Do some legwork and research. Some of this stuff frankly will not do what you're hoping it's going to do. The biggest problem with our country (and, let's be real, the world) is that 99% of us are being controlled by 1% and that 1% is fucking us over in a variety of ways to continue to be that 1% and be in control.
My list of demands, frankly, would be as follows:
I demand that greedy rich people stop fucking me and the rest of the 99% of the population under them over, and that my government, and my fellow citizens, stop continuing to allow them to fuck me over because they happen to have a fat paycheck and my government and my fellow citizens believe that they might receive a less fat but still substantially obese paycheck for doing so.
It seems to me that the "99%" is much more obsessed with money than the "1%" at this moment.
That's because money is what is being used against us, by the people who have it. Money is what people need to survive, and like everyone, we need it to survive. But it is being pulled away from us more and more until we do not have money to feed ourselves and keep roofs over our heads, or keep ourselves out of places where we run the risk of getting shot because we walked out our front door, or GET out of places where we run the risk of getting shot because we walked out our front door. In fact, those places EXIST because of corruption at the highest levels, by the 1%, who have more and more money to continue being corrupt because they can pay the right people to put up with it.
So, talking about money? Yes. Obsessed with money? Perhaps in the way a starving man is obsessed with food.
The problem with "demands" is given in "1" below. Also, a satisfying solution.
Many people have expressed their opinion about the way forward in this movement.
There are 3 common flaws in the proposals 1)"demands" have to be approved within the existing political structure, 2)physical theft or violence would require interference from the government, 3)current political entities would absorb this movement, when the feeling in the air is that something absolutely new is required.
Here is my proposal: create a new national capitol. Only that move will be seen as satisfying when we look back on these events in the decades to come.
But how can this small movement break free from the current oligarchy that controls us? We are doctors, lawyers, and farmers just the same as our founding fathers. Yet, the principles they created have been distorted to serve the oligarchy. These principles should be renewed.
In creating a new and better seat of government, we have the most powerful tool ever created - the internet.
I suggest Kansas City, Kansas as a location for this new seat of government. A new and faster internet is being created there. An open and more benign canvas exists at this site, without the stifling history and "baggage" found on either coast.
We don't need to hate "them", we'll just focus on creating a better "us". The energy to do this, exists right now in New York.
CarryTheGrips
This is all a joke, right? Surely, you all are not that ignorant. I mean, get rid of all debt? Soros wont like that. Do you not realize he is a capitalist along with many of the organizations protesting with you. These so called higher ups are using all you paid protesters.
LOL. Bunch of whiny babies crying "Where's the free stuff??"
I'm sorry, you don't get to upend the board game just because you're losing. You actually have to try to work.
LOL. Bunch of whiny babies crying "Where's the free stuff??"
I'm sorry, you don't get to upend the board game just because you're losing. You actually have to try to work.
SPREAD THE WORD on STUDENT LOAN RELIEF PLZ:
If people want help with student loans, or any loans or personal finance for that matter, they are welcome to join, at no cost,
and email me at waldo3k@yahoo.com
-so we can all begin to demand from Congress what they so easily give to their corporate sponsors: -free and low-cost money to refinance bad investments, -legal relief under federal bankruptcy laws and -legal ways to write off investments of any kind against earned income on one's IRS return (like the corporations do!), and -amendments to Truth in Lending laws to protect innocent, would-be borrowers about what to expect if they default on their student loans...
"For any given problem, there is a solution that is simple, obvious, and wrong."--H. L. Mencken
There are some good ideas here, but forgiving all debt would mean all corporate debt too. I don't even know what it would mean to outlaw credit reporting, but I do know that it would be Unconstitutional on its face.
This is genius... way to go Lloyd!!!! I'm behind you all the way.
Now what's your strategy for survival?
What a horrible poor thought out list.
SIlly ideas
Good ideas
The last comment reads like that written by a child... remove it.
Unsure
Some of this makes sense. Single payer being at the top of the list. Others such as universal debt forgiveness are nuts. We are also missing campaign finance reform that eliminates the wealthy and corporate interests from undue influence.
There are many that want this to fail. I want us to succeed!
I think that your proposed demands are unreasonable and will be taken as a typical socialist agenda. Let's just ask to break the mega corporations into smaller entities and make taxes fair for everyone - like what Warren Buffet said. Something has to be done about big money's control of the media. Journalists are no longer agents of democracy - comedians like John Stewart are the only ones we can turn to anymore. Let's take the French Revolution as our model - not Arab Spring. It is so much more like the French Revolution and nothing at all like Arab Spring. AND the media HATE the French. I wonder why.
A far better list is at: http://rodgermmitchell.wordpress.com/2011/10/12/5163/ Rodger Malcolm Mitchell
This document is amazing, anyone who is wondering what changes should happen to our political system as a result of these protests needs to help get this document into the hands of the people who are organizing. Someone help me make this happen. *www.resetbutton2011.org*
Demand seven: Green movement mindless group think about Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, & Fukushima. All those plants were decades old designs. New nuclear power plants are guaranteed much safer and easily surpass all "green" forms of energy in terms of megawatt output and reliability. Nuclear is the Power to Save the World. Learn the Truth about Nuclear Energy.
The beauty of this list is that morons on the left and right are reacting and responding as if they were real and came from a sentient being.
And folks wonder why the US is continuing to slide in world education rankings. No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. Tools.
Have you lost your mind? Who do you think is going to pay for this? OH I guess you think I should, since unlike 55% of this lazy ass country I have job.
How about my demands?
Get a fricken job or starve. I don't care about your bastard children, I didn't make them, so I shouldn't have to support them.
$20.00/yr...get a grip. How about $9.00max for a minimum wage
See #1
Get a loan, pay for your own college. Don't ask me to pay for your to go to college. Man up...pay your own way.
You go green. I'll stick with my fossil fuels and my SUV.
I agree with the infrastructure deal.
Build more nuclear plants. How they hell do you expect to have power if you don't allow fossil fuel and solar isn't up to par yet?
Racial and gender equality...I'll agree with that.
Screw open borders. You wanna go to Mexico, have at it. If you want to come in the USA, do it legal and become a citzen the right way. My ancestors had to, why shouldn't everyone else?
I kind of agree with the paper system. I want 1 person 1 vote. No electorial college.
See 1. Pay your damn bills and debt. I do!
If you paid your bills you wouldn't fear credit reporting agencies
Screw unions, I shouldn't have to join a union to have a damn job.
Your demands won't create jobs it will destory jobs. Which leads me to my demand # 14.
All Occupy Wall Streeters should stop breeding. Your making more stupid people.
A real Tool with no connection to reality. Put down the bong Lloyd and get back on your regular meds.
Wow - this list is terrible. Your real list of demands:
Demand One: Reform the tax code to achieve greater income equality. That is all.
This distills all of the power that the movement gained with the chant "We are the 99 percent!"
Unbelievable. Free College??? $20 per hour minimum wage, whether you work or not??? Open Borders??? So let me understand. Given this list of "demands", you want to be able to run up debt, and then have it forgiven. Where I come from that's called stealing. What ever happened to hard work, perseverance, and character? Oh yeah, they don't teach those principles in our public schools anymore. Too busy teaching kids about sex. I think you losers should go back to class, work hard to get a job and handle your OWN business. Occupy This you losers.
I'd agree, way too many demands. The main thing is to break the power of the banks to do whatever they want and hold the rest of us hostage, a radical issue which actually isn't even on this list. That's the demand you can get broad-based agreement on. You won't get it about some of the other issues on this list.
Hey, I want free opera every weekend and I want to take my dog. Since I'm a college teacher, I don't really want college education to be free until you've figured out how to pay college teachers, so I can occasionally go to the opera in the meantime.
Don't let your personal wish list distract you from the core problem.
Demand 14: End the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan
These demands are unrealistic and only serve to diminish the movement's credibility. We should be careful and frugal about what's demanded, as lack of frugality on our part was the enabler to bankers rape of our financial security. All we need is the dismantling of the federal reserve and an outlaw of the fractional reserve system. That is enough to break the stronghold. The rest can follow. I do not support any measure that can be abused by the lazy. We must give up entitlements and re-embrace the value of hard work and fair play and fair pay.
How Funny!!!! Clearly this 'movement' is nothing but an orgalized cloat of the Obama relection campaign.
Don't waist yout time. See you at the ballot box in 2012. At that time the Obamanation will be over.
Thank God!
How Funny!!!! Clearly this 'movement' is nothing but an orgalized cloat of the Obama relection campaign.
Don't waist yout time. See you at the ballot box in 2012. At that time the Obamanation will be over.
Thank God!
this list shows your ability to think thoroughly. Lets face it... are you like 12 years old?
This list also has a plan of action:
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
I read a commentary that the OWS movement was like the "Tea Party" movement - concerned with government waste and government/corporate collusion in basically ripping off everyone in America.
At least before the "Tea Party" became a Republican Booster club, that is willing to ignore wasteful spending & corp/gov collusion in fraud as long as it's own little pet want's are taken care of.
But these nonsense "demands" are little more than the same self contradictory garbage peddled by the Democratic Socialists of America.
What a waste. Bring a stuffed Karl Marx doll with you to the protests - it'll make the breathing folks there look less stupid.
Nice.... comment deletion.... How "democratic"... lol
I hope this gains a simple, straight-forward focus and purpose that grows to straighten out our 'broken' governace - there are simple questions the "99%" should ask of our government. I personally would start with their 'entitlements'...since they are looking at Social Security and other things that they call our 'entitlements', even though our employers and ourselves have paid into it more than we ever will take out, individually -
Why do the elected officials in Washington gain another retirement benefit other than the one all of us working US Citizens are eventually going to be a part of - Social Security. It makes no sense to me that we have created 'royalty' in the USA - that to me is a central point that could use some 'correction'. We fought the British to gain autonomy from royalty, yet we really have it here with this simple fact. They don't deserve more or a 'better' program then each of us do - it's that simple.
Where do the funds come from for all those folks currently retired from the Senate/Congress/etc.? I've never heard about that fund or how big it is. Let's liquidate it, put it in Social Security, retract whatever they have voted in for themselves, and put them all on the same program we all will be on. Level the playing field.
I want to hear their rationale for why they think this is deserved for them...don't you - and don't you think that everyone can agree on this simple question. Start there and it will lead you to what is wrong and we can all believe in it. My 2-cents
Prostitution should be free! And free drugs too!
Stupid.
1) "Gimme more money by instituting protectionism instead of changing the things that drive companies off to freer & less expensive countries to make stuff Americans want!"
2) "Gimme free doctor visits! I don't care if doctors want to get paid & pay out the nose to try to keep from getting sued! No tort reform, just force 'em to work for peanuts! (But don't do that to me!)"
3) "Just gimme enough money to have the lifestyle I think I'm entitled to, regardless of whether I bust my butt or sit on my ass!"
4) "Gimme a four year vacation in college so I can get drunk, get laid, and get a piece of paper that says I'm an expert on some bullshit that doesn't have any value in the real world whatsoever besides as a ticket to a job in the colleges!"
5) "Change the laws of physics & efficiency and force everyone to use 'alternative energy'. If it costs more & provides less, then force people to simply do less with the meager pickings of energy they can get!"
6) "Spend another trillion dollars that we don't have on replacing a bunch of stuff that either already exists or no one wants!"
7) "And while you're at it, spend yet another trillion dollars that we don't have on getting rid of actually efficient but scary electricity plants and replace them with off limits trees & swamps!!"
8) "Stop saying 'everyone is equal before the law' and start making sure minorities, women & GLBT folks get the special treatment they deserve!"
9) "Open the borders! Enough of this 'American pride' crap! Give the country back to the indians & mexicans!"
10) Wow. this one is actually worthwhile. Although it is worth noting that "international standards" are only theoretically good, while the reality is that elections are simply forced to be repeated until the PTB desired outcome is reached, at which point, any further voting is deemed "unnecessary."
11) "Bailouts for everyone! It isn't OUR fault that we sucked up the bullshit the government, unions & banks were feeding us and responded by treating our homes like Las Vegas ATM's and are now paying for our dumbass behavior by losing our homes! Rescue us with your "tits of mercy" momma government!"
12) "And don't let the credit reporting agencies cause us any problems for our demands to just walk away from our debts!!"
13) "While unions can organize & workers can already vote on them, we need a #13 to round this list of crybaby demands out!"
"... And I don't know WHAT the hell supply & demand is, but 'Job creation' is the #1 thing on people's minds right now, so if it'll get me play, I'll say that to try to justify my dumb bullshit."
Thank you very much USSA, Good night!
Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands.
Why isn't there a list of demands? Put one together that makes sense.
I agree with everything except demand 11. We have all made our own choices, which college to attend which goods, clothes, houses to buy. It is through our personal decisions that we as individual people accumulated our debt and we as individuals should work to pay that off. To eliminate all debt is as wrong as the corporate bailouts and it would promote greed in the same way.
Oh please wait you anarchists and lazy fucking spoiled entirled brats. I need to run out and borrow a $million or so before all debts are wiped out.
Oh please wait you anarchists and lazy fucking spoiled entirled brats. I need to run out and borrow a $million or so before all debts are wiped out.
You must be kidding me! This list is ABSURD. Who the f*ck do you think is going to pay for all of this nonsense? The so-called "rich" that you're trying to fleece? Even if you took EVERY CENT from the "rich," that wouldn't pay for even a tiny fraction of this for more than a few months! You clearly have NO idea how the economy and finances work. And you want 100% debt forgiveness, even including personal debt and mortgages? Are you freakin' insane? So you want to let people STEAL the money they borrowed while destroying nearly every bank in the U.S.? Really? Really? This list made me laugh so much!
Oh please wait you anarchists and lazy fucking spoiled entitled brats. I need to run out and borrow a $million or so before all debts are wiped out.
I think we should add a few more demands:
Demand fourteen: The official language becomes Swedish.
Demand fifteen: All citizens are required to change their underwear every half-hour. (Underwear will be worn on the outside so it can be checked).
Demand sixteen: All children under 16 years old are now...16 years old!
Demand seventeen: The new national anthem is the "Rebel Song". It goes like this "Rebels are we, / Born to be free, / just like the fish in the sea!"
some of it sounds great, some of it sounds like a total utopia (no nuclear energy - I don't think so), but to make any sens, it should be accompanied by "we demand, but we also promise: to stop our wasteful and unsustainable way of living, stop spending like there is no tomorrow and buying junk we don't even want, stop staring at stupid TV for hours and letting ourselves and our kids to become brainwashed zombies, so ignorant about everything that is happening around us and in the world. " etc, etc. you cannot ask for all those demands without offering to give up all that stuff that make the Wall Street profit for so long - living on a credit all your life and having cheaper and cheaper products.
I liked this movement better when it was unorganized, incoherent, and ignorant. Now this is just great comedy. You guys are the worst socialists ever!
IMPEACH corrupt federal and state judges who lie under oath and don't follow the constitutional laws of the United States when they conduct trials, also allow the public to access grand juries to show evidence against those judges who commit crimes and be able to do so without interference from state and federal lawyers.
I agree the demands are too many and not focused on the primary goal: get $$ out of politics. Anything not related to that primary goal should not be in the demands. Where's a demand to outlaw PACs?
$20 an hour will destroy the economy and raise the unemployment rate tremendously. small businesses will fail because they cannot pay employees and big businesses will stay strong because they already outsource work. if you want anything to get done ever and dont want this to be looked at as a joke, lower these demands into something plausible.
I think we all now understand why the majority of these people (protesters) are unemployed. People who can't think, understand, or reason usually end up in the parks downtown sooner or later. Usually under a newspaper. I feel bad that they have no understanding of how jobs are created. I hate to watch people make a fool of themselves, especially our President!
I think we all now understand why the majority of these people (protesters) are unemployed. People who can't think, understand, or reason usually end up in the parks downtown sooner or later. Usually under a newspaper. I feel bad that they have no understanding of how jobs are created. I hate to watch people make a fool of themselves, especially our President!
Wow are you people dumbasses. Not the least sense of creating value in exchange for getting something in return. You don't get something for nothing and You All look like morons. There are some things wrong with our society... but until you children grow up and start to earn your way in the world.. NO ONE is going to pay you any REAL attention... GET A JOB!!! GROW UP!!!! PAY YOUR OWN WAY AND PAY YOUR OWN BILLS. If you can't get a job.. do something that adds value, not detracts from it... if you can't create value, you are entitled to air, water and bread... your subsistence can be either in an alley, or in welfare housing... but that will be 4 walls, a stone floor, a cot and nothing else... you want anything else... EARN IT!!!! I owe you nothing!!! If you steal from me, I have the right to defend myself and my possessions. I will do so with whatever force necessary.
Demand eight is already covered by the constitution and existing law. Maybe we should be passing out constitutions at the rally.
haha free education for all? who's going to pay for that free education there Lloyd? And forgiveness of debt? So really what you want is to force other people to just allow you to do what you want without facing the consequences and without shouldering the responsibility of your own decisions...wow, brilliant
After reading demands 1-4 I am convinced this is nothing more than a reelect Obama campaign ploy, busted
Outlaw all credit reporting agencies, what does that accomplish? Why should those who fail to honor their debts be treated the same as who do? No logic here
As expected, if you post an opposing view your comment is deleted
The whole thing is a joke, this so called movement is comprised of nothing more than a bunch of dumb kids, union leaders and liberal activist groups.
I needed a good laugh. I like the one about forgiving all debt. That would be a quick path to economic collapse which I suppose is what you communists really want. You look like a bunch of uneducated fools. The only benefit to this whole "movement" is that it shows me our public school system is a complete failure. Otherwise you would understand the history of communism and its massive failures. Funny stuff, but in a way sad too...
The whole thing is a joke, this so called movement is comprised of nothing more than a bunch of dumb kids, union leaders and liberal activist groups.
OMG how pathetically funny are these demands. 1.) please name the other countries that have open borders? 2.) forgiveness of all debt would cause total economic destruction of the United States 3.) equal living for people who dont even work then why would anyone work? 4.) free college? well we wouldn't have to worry about that because no one would be working. 4.) Unions work for themselves they take money and give back nothing 5.) trillions of dollars for trees? well that wont happen because no one is working. Please understand that that if you give 25 people 500,000 dollars you will have some who will make it grow and others who will buy TV's so what then do we take from those that worked to increase their money and give it to those that waste it? Oh wait then the waster will have more toys than the worker which means it wont be equal. These demands sound like they are coming from lazy bums who don't want to work and want everything handed to them at others expense. To all of them GET A JOB AND EARN THE THINGS YOUR DEMANDING and stop looking for ways to leach of others hard working people
Remove any and all money out of politics, No political figure should be able to make a penny more than the salary he gets paid for his services... This would resolve 99% of the issues with our current government and would establish a solid achievable goal for the movement. We can move forward from there but we should try to do something simple and effective NOW...
OMG how pathetically funny are these demands. 1.) please name the other countries that have open borders? 2.) forgiveness of all debt would cause total economic destruction of the United States 3.) equal living for people who dont even work then why would anyone work? 4.) free college? well we wouldn't have to worry about that because no one would be working. 4.) Unions work for themselves they take money and give back nothing 5.) trillions of dollars for trees? well that wont happen because no one is working. Please understand that that if you give 25 people 500,000 dollars you will have some who will make it grow and others who will buy TV's so what then do we take from those that worked to increase their money and give it to those that waste it? Oh wait then the waster will have more toys than the worker which means it wont be equal. These demands sound like they are coming from lazy bums who don't want to work and want everything handed to them at others expense. To all of them GET A JOB AND EARN THE THINGS YOUR DEMANDING and stop looking for ways to leach of others hard working people
One's person Debt is another persons ASSET. You can just wipe it out.
I am not sure there is a true education here. In addition, there are a lot of conflicting requests. Let's break each one down:
One - Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour?? So, a 16 year old kid that is serving at a fast food restaurant or a grocery store would earn $20 per hour? You are going to create MORE monopolies and shove the entrepreneurs (mom and pop grocery stores, individually owned restaurants, etc...) In addition, the expense of all your groceries and meals will go up in order to pay everyone at that rate.
Two - A universal single payer healthcare system....well, now you have just erased all the jobs of those private insurers.
Three - Can you define what a 'living wage' is? That's the issue - perception is 90% of the rule. This is also saying that a high school drop out and a college graduate can have the same income??
Four - This one just made me laugh. How do you expect the college to pay all the professors/teachers? How do you expect them to pay for lights? Heat? Air Conditioning? Think of the monthly bills you have just on your own place of living? Now make that about 3000 (or more) times larger.
Five - If you have stayed up to date on the scientific community you would already know that they are working very hard to improve 'alternative energy' - in fact I just saw a commercial yesterday about turning our trash into energy.
Six and Seven - Where do you think this 6 trillion dollars is coming from?
Eight - The racial and gender equal rights are gradually coming to a much better balance. Creating an amendment does not change the opinion of those closed minded people. Is this what you want the government meeting about? Or do you want them to find your 6 trillion dollars??
Nine - Open borders - hmmmm....so all those jobs you were wanting and the $20 minimum wage and the guaranteed 'living wage income' are going to be given to those coming into America. I really haven't seen nor heard of Americans trying to sneak across the borders to get jobs in Mexico. You can travel - just get a passport and catch a flight anywhere you want.
Ten - So, we will get results from voting in weeks/months instead of minutes? Are you paying those people $20 per hour to count? What about the individuals of the independent and party servers system? How much to they get to sit there and watch other people count paper? This is the day and age of electronics - do you happen to have a microwave? A smart phone? You mention fast tracking one process and then bringing another to almost a complete halt...
Eleven and Twelve - Are you truly serious here? So, If I go out and purchase a 2.5 million dollar house - Which there is NO WAY I could EVER afford, I could move in (because there are no credit reporting agencies) and have all debt erased? Really? And, who has to pay for the house then? What about the people I had purchased the house from? And the bank that gave me the loan? Who pays the people who built the house if it is brand new? I just took money out of their pockets. I could continue to come up with examples of how ridiculous these 'demands' are.
Thirteen - Workers do have the right to either join or not join a union. If they decide to join, then they actually vote those representatives to represent them.
Please - I would LOVE to hear how only 13 'demands' will create 'so many jobs’ - so far, I have seen you actually REMOVE more jobs, and create MORE debt in our country. It really isn't as easy as you put on one page. I have an idea. Pick up a newspaper or go on line to any job recruiting website and see how many jobs area out there. It may not be the 'perfect' job for you right now, however at least it is money coming in the door.
My mom told me ever since I was a kid that if I was able to stand there with my hand out I might as well be handing a hamburger and fries to someone and making money for it.
Clearly I need to check my calendar - must be April 1st.
It has to be at least 3 TIMES BIGGER!!
It has to be at least 3 TIMES BIGGER!!
So funny if you did all this our country would emplode, lazyness. if you destroy all the business, you have no money to pay for any of this. Do some research people. Get paid not to work, nice. and sucks I had cut back not to run up debts, but everyone gets bailed out. In 1845 andrew jackson shut down fed bank, was like 10 times worse than depression. Why are people not protesting washington DC, they forced the banks to loan moneyto sub-prime, really its a law, this caused the collapse. Their are good things to fight for... this is a joke
So funny if you did all this our country would emplode, lazyness. if you destroy all the business, you have no money to pay for any of this. Do some research people. Get paid not to work, nice. and sucks I had cut back not to run up debts, but everyone gets bailed out. In 1845 andrew jackson shut down fed bank, was like 10 times worse than depression. Why are people not protesting washington DC, they forced the banks to loan moneyto sub-prime, really its a law, this caused the collapse. Their are good things to fight for... this is a joke
I have a few suggestions:
Need to get out of debt? get a job, educate your self ,work hard,save your money,I started off as a foster child in life,but I took responsibility for my self as an adult,and over time I've been moving up in life,you are always responsible for you own success,no one owes you a living. Ask not what your country can do for you,ask what you can do for your country-JFK
These demands seem like a 5th grader wrote them. They don't pass the reasonableness test, e.g. Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all.
There are so many issues with these demands, there is no place to start. You are asking for universal welfare country. If you enact 3 & 4 with 9, everyone is going to move to the US to collect on 3 & 4. The only problem is, we will no longer have any educators because they would make more money living off of 3. Then we will have a huge debt issue because everyone who had bad debt will be cleared on number 11 and won't be tracked because of 12. You have debt free, free-loaders and no one to front the bill.
let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. — Ephesians 4:28
Dear Lloyd, I think the list is a good start. I'm surprised it does not call for the roll back of the Citizens United Supreme Court decision. I think we need either publicly funded elections or a ban on corporate and special interest contributions in all our elections. Short of publicly funded elections the best thing would be to limit contributions to individual citizens with a limit placed on the amount each could contribute. I beleive that corporate and special interest money in our elections strikes at the heart of the problem. Please consider adding it to the list.
We need a npo that accepts campaign donations from anyone, even corporations, then anonymously distributes it evenly to all candidates.
This is ridiculous, you might as well add "Free Netflix for All!" and "Save all of the puppies!"
We want free drugs - and make them all legal. Old people who are worthless get free drugs paid for by our government even though they are going to die soon anyway.
you have zero sense
You must come up with an acronym to catch the general populations attention. I sugguest:
FAIR
F Fair Trade (only countries with fair labor laws, enviromental laws and fair trade pratices)
A Adjust the Tax code. Make the tax code more progressive
I Invest in America including its infrastructure and its education system
R Respect workers with a living wage and the right to unionize
WHAT WE WANT IS FAIR
You must come up with an acronym to catch the general populations attention. I sugguest:
FAIR
F Fair Trade (only countries with fair labor laws, enviromental laws and fair trade pratices)
A Adjust the Tax code. Make the tax code more progressive
I Invest in America including its infrastructure and its education system
R Respect workers with a living wage and the right to unionize
WHAT WE WANT IS FAIR
You must come up with an acronym to catch the general populations attention. I sugguest:
FAIR
F Fair Trade (only countries with fair labor laws, enviromental laws and fair trade pratices)
A Adjust the Tax code. Make the tax code more progressive
I Invest in America including its infrastructure and its education system
R Respect workers with a living wage and the right to unionize
WHAT WE WANT IS FAIR
I think you should create a business called Occupy Wall Street. Then you could all set your own wages to pay each other. Take part in whatever business model you would like and see if it succeeds. I doubt it. But what do i I know.
IHeartFreeLunches NOM NOM NOM
I think you should create a business called Occupy Wall Street. Then you could all set your own wages to pay each other. Take part in whatever business model you would like and see if it succeeds. I doubt it. But what do i I know.
IHeartFreeLunches NOM NOM NOM
Modify the Green Energy demand to be:
Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand in a way that benefits ratepayers not corporations.
Here in Hawaii we're being exploited by corporations instituting Big Wind at government expense in a way that will milk taxpayers for exorbitant corporate profits. The move to renewable has to be decentralized and given directly to taxpayers ... not co-opted by corporate greed.
Please keep posts sort. I like to get laughs. Not read your life story about how the US sucks or you want to QQ about your shit job.
Thanks
IHeartFreeLunches
I'll echo the posts before mine that urge us to broadcast only our most pressing demands--and I'll briefly add something that I hope this website's volunteers and its visitors will consider:
Each of the movement's demands is urgent--but NONE of them will be backed by lawmakers until those lawmakers' campaigns are no longer funded by corporations.
THAT change is the foundation upon which our other proposed changes can be built.
And unless there is a cap on campaign contributions (as there is in other countries), corporations will find a way to make their campaign donations through individuals.
One of our primary demands should be A CAP ON CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS. With that change, our movement will have an effect that LASTS.
And a suggestion for this website: it would help our cause immensely if, as soon as a person enters the home page, it were easier to locate a single forum where he or she can help refine our list of demands.
FACE PALM
God, I hope less than 1/20th of occupants are this retarded...
Racial and gender equal rights AMENDMENT??? WHAT DO WE HAVE TO AMEND THAT SAYS THAT ANY SPECIFIC RACE OR GENDER IS SUPERIOR TO ANOTHER??? Find me that...
FACE PALM
God, I hope less than 1/20th of occupants are this retarded...
Racial and gender equal rights AMENDMENT??? WHAT DO WE HAVE TO AMEND THAT SAYS THAT ANY SPECIFIC RACE OR GENDER IS SUPERIOR TO ANOTHER??? Find me that...
FACE PALM
God, I hope less than 1/20th of occupants are this retarded...
Racial and gender equal rights AMENDMENT??? WHAT DO WE HAVE TO AMEND THAT SAYS THAT ANY SPECIFIC RACE OR GENDER IS SUPERIOR TO ANOTHER??? Find me that...
I think it would be a good idea to start reading the Federalist Papers written by Alexander Hamilton. We can thank him for a lot of this crap. It was his idea to begin a central bank. Not that it wasn't a good idea at the time. It just got hijacked by the greedy. Be informed before making unfounded accusations. Believe it or not its why Webster created the dictionary. Noam Chomski wouldn't be bad either. This all brings back memories of the 60's. Let's not forget this is for the Amercian people. Not for those just looking to stick another feather in their hat or look good for the ladies.
I think it would be a good idea to start reading the Federalist Papers written by Alexander Hamilton. We can thank him for a lot of this crap. It was his idea to begin a central bank. Not that it wasn't a good idea at the time. It just got hijacked by the greedy. Be informed before making unfounded accusations. Believe it or not its why Webster created the dictionary. Noam Chomski wouldn't be bad either. This all brings back memories of the 60's. Let's not forget this is for the Amercian people. Not for those just looking to stick another feather in their hat or look good for the ladies.
A. This is very communist/socialist. I'm not a Joe McCarthy, but you are asking to basically uproot the sanction of capitalism. B. You are asking for other countries to write off the Trillions of dollars they have lent to us, just because 30K people in NYC are "mad" about unemployment C. How can we have guaranteed living and no border protection? I don't know if you have any idea of the concept of producing money works, but it doesn't just appear out of no where. We are talking about hyper-inflation. D. If you guys are so against the financial system, you are putting millions of people out of jobs. That is why capitalism exceeds communism, because communist give people the minimum to survive and that is it. Capitalist give people opportunity to grow well beyond that. Otherwise college would be a waste and people should just go to a craft school.
I understand you're upset because you are still unemployed, but don't blame people that at a young age, understood the concept of good work ethic and applied themselves. It's really easy to blame other people for your problems, and the best thing to do is just pick up the pieces and make a name for yourself. I'm talking to you Lloyd Hart.
So, to start with, eliminate all debts to destroy the banking system and eliminate any type of investment. Eliminate foreign competition and increase the minimum wage to 20 dollars, thus creating unbearable inflation. Next , free college education and unlimited spending, thus creating the need for more taxes. Open borders, so with the 20 dollar minimum wage, Mexico will pretty much empty out and move north, thus creating more problems. Did the people who created these demands actually think any of it through? Do they possess any kind of history, economics, science, or engineering knowledge?
So, to start with, eliminate all debts to destroy the banking system and eliminate any type of investment. Eliminate foreign competition and increase the minimum wage to 20 dollars, thus creating unbearable inflation. Next , free college education and unlimited spending, thus creating the need for more taxes. Open borders, so with the 20 dollar minimum wage, Mexico will pretty much empty out and move north, thus creating more problems. Did the people who created these demands actually think any of it through? Do they possess any kind of history, economics, science, or engineering knowledge?
These demands are short sighted, and are not the answer to corporate greed and corruption. Should these become the demands of the Occupy Wall Street Movement, the movement will only serve as a detriment to our country’s progress instead of reaching its full potential as a beacon of hope for our nation.
Anybody who takes even one of these demands seriously is an idiot. I thing this movement is populated by a bunch of whining, lazy fools who aren't interested in working. I work for a living and maintain my credit by being a hard working responsible person. Nobody owes you fools a living nor anything else for that matter. Free college education??? Who pays for the "guaranteed living wage"? And you want it for doing absolutely nothing???? What a bunch of BUMS.. Go back to class, get a job and handle your OWN business. LOSERS!!! Get a life. Occupy This, you chumps!
These demands are short sighted, and are not the answer to corporate greed and corruption. Should these become the demands of the Occupy Wall Street Movement, the movement will only serve as a detriment to our country’s progress instead of reaching its full potential as a beacon of hope for our nation.
Anybody who takes even one of these demands seriously is an idiot. I thing this movement is populated by a bunch of whining, lazy fools who aren't interested in working. I work for a living and maintain my credit by being a hard working responsible person. Nobody owes you fools a living nor anything else for that matter. Free college education??? Who pays for the "guaranteed living wage"? And you want it for doing absolutely nothing???? What a bunch of BUMS.. Go back to class, get a job and handle your OWN business. LOSERS!!! Get a life. Occupy This, you chumps!
This is pure idiocy! Sadly it shows what is really wrong with America. We live in a fantasy land and don't use our brains or admit reality. While I would agree with protesting the greed on Wall Street, this hurts your cause by showing stupidity, a failure to accept what is real, and a willingness to just stand up and "spout" without thinking. Way to go.
Transparency, transparency transparency. Get the troops home.
I side with many of the sentiments here. Lets get one at a time. Start with banks, because it is easy to protest them by moving our funds away to local credit unions or otherwise. Have them comply with us, then focus on corporations that does business with these banks, BIG corporation if required to get loan, need to comply with our demands, thats the only way we can get revive america and our jobs back to us. We have lost all our jobs to outsourcing. Lets get our jobs back first, below is a sample email we can use to send to big banks, suggestions thoughts appreciated at unitedagainstoutsourcing@yahoo.com Stop Outsourcing our jobs now! [?occupywallst?] is planning a nationwide event for Big Banks to stop outsourcing our jobs to India and other countries. We do not buy your lame excuse of “unable to find qualified workers” for conveniently shipping jobs overseas. Before we go live with our event and to avoid major collapse to your corporations, we are giving you one and final chance to come clean.
Deadline for JPMorgan, Bank of America & Wells Fargo: 20th NOV 2011 If you do not respond, we will act: 1.) Campaign to move all US legal residents’ money from your bank to other local banks/credit union which are not outsourcing. What you must do: Email us in writing your intention to comply with the below guidelines by 19th NOV 2011 11:00PM EST. If we do not hear from you by then, we will start the campaign against you. Guidelines: 1.) You should immediately seize outsourcing anymore jobs from US to other countries. 2.) You should only hire H1/L1 employee, if you cannot find a qualified worker here in the US. “Pay rate” must not be a criterion in defining “qualified candidate”. Meaning, if H1/L1 employee is willing to work for less amount of money than a permanent resident/citizen, you cannot make permanent resident/citizen unqualified for the job. 3.) All employees handling US personal/business/investment vehicles must be within US and legal residents in the US (must comply with rule 2). 4.) We understand you operate as a global company and we are not against you hiring individuals overseas to manage personal/business/investment vehicle owned by companies/corporations/individuals from that country. 5.) All infrastructure, including datacenters, data center support and maintenance, applications, application development, support and maintenance, other components to run the application and its support must be handled within US and by legal US employees (must comply with rule 2). 6.) You should make a 5 year action plan in bringing back any lost jobs, infrastructure or other related applications/components from overseas to here in the US. 7.) If you are contracting jobs to other companies, those companies must be a US company and should also comply with above rules. 8.) There should be yearly internal and external audit to ensure the compliance on above said rules. We understand it’s a big effort from your side. All we need is your intention to review the above guidelines by 19th of NOV. We hope you will become an example and cooperate in our endeavors to revive America back. Sincerely, [?OccupyWallSt?]
You need a strategy, not a manifesto.
I would suggest one demand as a start: the top 25 hedge fund managers made 22 BILLION dollars in personal income last year. That’s enough for 441,000 people to make $50,000 a year. They need to give it back by donating it to public welfare agencies and give it back NOW. As the market crashes again this year you can be guaranteed they will not be returning those funds to the retirees and street level investors they stole it from.
But that's just a start. These guys have taken just about every piece of the foundation to the U.S. economy and repackaged it into a poker chip. People who WORK for a living need to earn a living. Until this system is reformed the only people who can get ahead are the gamblers. And by gamblers I mean the people betting on everyone else’s lives, not their own, they don't have the conscience or bravery to do that.
Demand four is stupid. We should have to play for our education, but someone should keep these schools in check to defeat artificial inflation.
Demand eight needs to be removed. This isn't about gay rights, leave that fight for another group.
Demand eleven would only cause more problems, but a readjustment to a more realistic debt level would be a good.
The bit at the end stating that "These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy." needs to be removed. After the people already in America have jobs, then someone needs to bring up the immigration issue.
What a bunch ofCommie Dope-Head Patsies is right! Do us and yourselves a favor: LEAVE, GET the H - - - OUT if we're so bad here! Move to Communist North Korea or China. I hear it's "nice" this time of year! They are so stupid they don't even know they are protesting the very thing they claim to be complaining about! All they are are ANARCHISTS useful idiots once again the Leftists have managed to get riled up, and it doesn't take much for ignorant, indoctrinated children to incite riot. Right out of the Communist Manifesto, I tell ya!
Quoting from Washington's farewell address to his troops: "Government is like fire: Controlled, it's a boon to the human race. Uncontrolled, it will consume us."
Ah, the product of a supposed economic think-tank composed of Graphic Design and English majors. Allow me to simplify this list in a more comprehensible fashion--make sure you are reading and put down your Crayon for a brief moment.
Do you remember when you were a child, and you would walk the aisles of Toys "R" Us? You would always beg your parents to buy you everything on the shelves, and they would have to explain to you, in the simplest terms, that it just wasn't possible; Perhaps they didn't mention that it would cause severe financial ramifications and jeopardize the health and safety of all of your siblings. Perhaps they did not explain that if they were to simply give in to your elaborately extravagant demands, they would lose their home due to their inability to make mortgage/rent/utility/etc. payments. And perhaps the saddest thing of all is that they SHOULD have told you the cold hard truth. Rather, they were too proud to enlighten you. However, you are no longer a 7-year-old child (I'm assuming), and you are now expected to think, understand and act as a responsible adult. Stop tugging on Mommy's shirt tails and begging for that shiny toy on the shelf, because if and when she does give in, you are going to be the proximate cause that destroys your family's financial sustainability.
If you would like, feel free to retrieve your Crayon now. Although, maybe it is time to put the coloring books behind you.
Sounds like a good plan to create hyperinflation. When you run the printing presses to meet their demands, that's what you get. They need to take Economics 101.
We need to start "small." And some comments mention this and are correct that a few of these aren't possible to be done together. We're talking about a web here, not just a singularity. I think sticking with demands 1, 2, 4, 8, and 10 are good starting points. You'll never get enough people to sign onto demand 11 because that'll cause the system to crash if it would be even possible to do so. And 3 ... this one is problematic. Regardless of any type of employment people will get wages? I'm all for helping everyone and society as a whole, but there needs to be accountability for not just Wall Street, etc, but for all of us, too.
I have believed in and supported the Occupy Wall Street movement from afar, from the first day. Your heart was in the right place, Lloyd, and you obviously put a lot of thought and work into this. But I don't agree with ANY of these ideas. The closest I can get is agreement on the elimination of "Free Trade" and Demand Eight. Also, NONE of these demands addresses what I understood the protest to be about: Ending greed. Let's start there.
I would begin with "Impose 1% Federal Sales Tax on all stock purchases." We have to pay state sales tax when we buy a car. Should be the same to buy part of a company. This would end the "churning" and propensity of billionaires to swap stocks on a daily basis like most of us change socks. Maybe get investors back to thinking of the stock market as a place to raise capital for businesses instead of simply a mechanism to make the rich richer.
Another idea to rein in greed: Impose more stringent and severe rules against fraud and stock manipulation, then actually ARREST somebody. The govt. has no problem rounding up protesters for stepping off the sidewalk, but they don't have time to go get guys like Madoff? (And trust me, there are a LOT more like Madoff around).
Another idea - set a cap on executive salaries. Follow a variation on the Ben and Jerry's concept: For example - a CEO cannot earn more than 100 times the salary of a company's lowest-paid employee. Not only reins in the obscene salaries for execs, also gives them an incentive to increase salaries of lower-paid employees. (Example: If floor sweeper earns $15,000/yr, CEO gets $1.5 million. If CEO wants raise to $2 million, floor sweepers get raise to $20,000). This way, as the conservatives like to say, "a rising tide lifts all boats." Good way to harness greed for good.
And if CEO gets stocks in lieu of pay, the lowest paid employees get the same ratio of stocks.
And "free trade" has to end. American-based companies should no longer be allowed to use money earned from and off the backs of Americans, only to reinvest that money in factories overseas. U.S. companies must manufacture here, or move their headquarters overseas and be banned from doing business in the U.S. See how they like operating under CHINA's rules!
Just some ideas, but the key message has to be this:
END THE GREED!!!
I have believed in and supported the Occupy Wall Street movement from afar, from the first day. Your heart was in the right place, Lloyd, and you obviously put a lot of thought and work into this. But I don't agree with ANY of these ideas. The closest I can get is agreement on the elimination of "Free Trade" and Demand Eight. Also, NONE of these demands addresses what I understood the protest to be about: Ending greed. Let's start there.
I would begin with "Impose 1% Federal Sales Tax on all stock purchases." We have to pay state sales tax when we buy a car. Should be the same to buy part of a company. This would end the "churning" and propensity of billionaires to swap stocks on a daily basis like most of us change socks. Maybe get investors back to thinking of the stock market as a place to raise capital for businesses instead of simply a mechanism to make the rich richer.
Another idea to rein in greed: Impose more stringent and severe rules against fraud and stock manipulation, then actually ARREST somebody. The govt. has no problem rounding up protesters for stepping off the sidewalk, but they don't have time to go get guys like Madoff? (And trust me, there are a LOT more like Madoff around).
Another idea - set a cap on executive salaries. Follow a variation on the Ben and Jerry's concept: For example - a CEO cannot earn more than 100 times the salary of a company's lowest-paid employee. Not only reins in the obscene salaries for execs, also gives them an incentive to increase salaries of lower-paid employees. (Example: If floor sweeper earns $15,000/yr, CEO gets $1.5 million. If CEO wants raise to $2 million, floor sweepers get raise to $20,000). This way, as the conservatives like to say, "a rising tide lifts all boats." Good way to harness greed for good.
And if CEO gets stocks in lieu of pay, the lowest paid employees get the same ratio of stocks.
And "free trade" has to end. American-based companies should no longer be allowed to use money earned from and off the backs of Americans, only to reinvest that money in factories overseas. U.S. companies must manufacture here, or move their headquarters overseas and be banned from doing business in the U.S. See how they like operating under CHINA's rules!
Just some ideas, but the key message has to be this:
END THE GREED!!!
I have believed in and supported the Occupy Wall Street movement from afar, from the first day. Your heart was in the right place, Lloyd, and you obviously put a lot of thought and work into this. But I don't agree with ANY of these ideas. The closest I can get is agreement on the elimination of "Free Trade" and Demand Eight. Also, NONE of these demands addresses what I understood the protest to be about: Ending greed. Let's start there.
I would begin with "Impose 1% Federal Sales Tax on all stock purchases." We have to pay state sales tax when we buy a car. Should be the same to buy part of a company. This would end the "churning" and propensity of billionaires to swap stocks on a daily basis like most of us change socks. Maybe get investors back to thinking of the stock market as a place to raise capital for businesses instead of simply a mechanism to make the rich richer.
Another idea to rein in greed: Impose more stringent and severe rules against fraud and stock manipulation, then actually ARREST somebody. The govt. has no problem rounding up protesters for stepping off the sidewalk, but they don't have time to go get guys like Madoff? (And trust me, there are a LOT more like Madoff around).
Another idea - set a cap on executive salaries. Follow a variation on the Ben and Jerry's concept: For example - a CEO cannot earn more than 100 times the salary of a company's lowest-paid employee. Not only reins in the obscene salaries for execs, also gives them an incentive to increase salaries of lower-paid employees. (Example: If floor sweeper earns $15,000/yr, CEO gets $1.5 million. If CEO wants raise to $2 million, floor sweepers get raise to $20,000). This way, as the conservatives like to say, "a rising tide lifts all boats." Good way to harness greed for good.
And if CEO gets stocks in lieu of pay, the lowest paid employees get the same ratio of stocks.
And "free trade" has to end. American-based companies should no longer be allowed to use money earned from and off the backs of Americans, only to reinvest that money in factories overseas. U.S. companies must manufacture here, or move their headquarters overseas and be banned from doing business in the U.S. See how they like operating under CHINA's rules!
Just some ideas, but the key message has to be this:
END THE GREED!!!
I have believed in and supported the Occupy Wall Street movement from afar, from the first day. Your heart was in the right place, Lloyd, and you obviously put a lot of thought and work into this. But I don't agree with ANY of these ideas. The closest I can get is agreement on the elimination of "Free Trade" and Demand Eight. Also, NONE of these demands addresses what I understood the protest to be about: Ending greed. Let's start there.
I would begin with "Impose 1% Federal Sales Tax on all stock purchases." We have to pay state sales tax when we buy a car. Should be the same to buy part of a company. This would end the "churning" and propensity of billionaires to swap stocks on a daily basis like most of us change socks. Maybe get investors back to thinking of the stock market as a place to raise capital for businesses instead of simply a mechanism to make the rich richer.
Another idea to rein in greed: Impose more stringent and severe rules against fraud and stock manipulation, then actually ARREST somebody. The govt. has no problem rounding up protesters for stepping off the sidewalk, but they don't have time to go get guys like Madoff? (And trust me, there are a LOT more like Madoff around).
Another idea - set a cap on executive salaries. Follow a variation on the Ben and Jerry's concept: For example - a CEO cannot earn more than 100 times the salary of a company's lowest-paid employee. Not only reins in the obscene salaries for execs, also gives them an incentive to increase salaries of lower-paid employees. (Example: If floor sweeper earns $15,000/yr, CEO gets $1.5 million. If CEO wants raise to $2 million, floor sweepers get raise to $20,000). This way, as the conservatives like to say, "a rising tide lifts all boats." Good way to harness greed for good.
And if CEO gets stocks in lieu of pay, the lowest paid employees get the same ratio of stocks.
Just some ideas, but the key message has to be this:
END THE GREED!!!
I have believed in and supported the Occupy Wall Street movement from afar, from the first day. Your heart was in the right place, Lloyd, and you obviously put a lot of thought and work into this. But I don't agree with ANY of these ideas. The closest I can get is agreement on the elimination of "Free Trade" and Demand Eight. Also, NONE of these demands addresses what I understood the protest to be about: Ending greed. Let's start there.
I would begin with "Impose 1% Federal Sales Tax on all stock purchases." We have to pay state sales tax when we buy a car. Should be the same to buy part of a company. This would end the "churning" and propensity of billionaires to swap stocks on a daily basis like most of us change socks. Maybe get investors back to thinking of the stock market as a place to raise capital for businesses instead of simply a mechanism to make the rich richer.
Another idea to rein in greed: Impose more stringent and severe rules against fraud and stock manipulation, then actually ARREST somebody. The govt. has no problem rounding up protesters for stepping off the sidewalk, but they don't have time to go get guys like Madoff? (And trust me, there are a LOT more like Madoff around).
Another idea - set a cap on executive salaries. Follow a variation on the Ben and Jerry's concept: For example - a CEO cannot earn more than 100 times the salary of a company's lowest-paid employee. Not only reins in the obscene salaries for execs, also gives them an incentive to increase salaries of lower-paid employees. (Example: If floor sweeper earns $15,000/yr, CEO gets $1.5 million. If CEO wants raise to $2 million, floor sweepers get raise to $20,000). This way, as the conservatives like to say, "a rising tide lifts all boats." Good way to harness greed for good.
And if CEO gets stocks in lieu of pay, the lowest paid employees get the same ratio of stocks.
Just some ideas, but the key message has to be this:
END THE GREED!!!
I have believed in and supported the Occupy Wall Street movement from afar, from the first day. Your heart was in the right place, Lloyd, and you obviously put a lot of thought and work into this. But I don't agree with ANY of these ideas. The closest I can get is agreement on the elimination of "Free Trade," and Demand Eight. Also, NONE of these demands addresses what I understood the protest to be about: Ending greed. Let's start there.
I would begin with "Impose 1% Federal Sales Tax on all stock purchases." We have to pay state sales tax when we buy a car. Should be the same to buy part of a company. This would end the "churning" and propensity of billionaires to swap stocks on a daily basis like most of us change socks. Maybe get investors back to thinking of the stock market as a place to raise capital for businesses instead of simply a mechanism to make the rich richer.
Another idea to rein in greed: Impose more stringent and severe rules against fraud and stock manipulation, then actually ARREST somebody. The govt. has no problem rounding up protesters for stepping off the sidewalk, but they don't have time to go get guys like Madoff? (And trust me, there are a LOT more like Madoff around).
Another idea - set a cap on executive salaries. Follow a variation on the Ben and Jerry's concept: For example - a CEO cannot earn more than 100 times the salary of a company's lowest-paid employee. Not only reins in the obscene salaries for execs, also gives them an incentive to increase salaries of lower-paid employees. (Example: If floor sweeper earns $15,000/yr, CEO gets $1.5 million. If CEO wants raise to $2 million, floor sweepers get raise to $20,000). This way, as the conservatives like to say, "a rising tide lifts all boats." Good way to harness greed for good.
And if CEO gets stocks in lieu of pay, the lowest paid employees get the same ratio of stocks.
Just some ideas, but the key message has to be this:
END THE GREED!!!
I have believed in and supported the Occupy Wall Street movement from afar, from the first day. Your heart was in the right place, Lloyd, and you obviously put a lot of thought and work into this. But I don't agree with ANY of these ideas. The closest I can get is agreement on the elimination of "Free Trade," and Demand Eight. Also, NONE of these demands addresses what I understood the protest to be about: Ending greed. Let's start there.
I would begin with "Impose 1% Federal Sales Tax on all stock purchases." We have to pay state sales tax when we buy a car. Should be the same to buy part of a company. This would end the "churning" and propensity of billionaires to swap stocks on a daily basis like most of us change socks. Maybe get investors back to thinking of the stock market as a place to raise capital for businesses instead of simply a mechanism to make the rich richer.
Another idea to rein in greed: Impose more stringent and severe rules against fraud and stock manipulation, then actually ARREST somebody. The govt. has no problem rounding up protesters for stepping off the sidewalk, but they don't have time to go get guys like Madoff? (And trust me, there are a LOT more like Madoff around).
Another idea - set a cap on executive salaries. Follow a variation on the Ben and Jerry's concept: For example - a CEO cannot earn more than 100 times the salary of a company's lowest-paid employee. Not only reins in the obscene salaries for execs, also gives them an incentive to increase salaries of lower-paid employees. (Example: If floor sweeper earns $15,000/yr, CEO gets $1.5 million. If CEO wants raise to $2 million, floor sweepers get raise to $20,000). This way, as the conservatives like to say, "a rising tide lifts all boats." Good way to harness greed for good.
And if CEO gets stocks in lieu of pay, the lowest paid employees get the same ratio of stocks.
Just some ideas, but the key message has to be this:
END THE GREED!!!
I will not consider these the official list of demands. I highly encourage this list be seriously curtailed and revised. It is not economically feasible to demand that all unemployed people receive a full living wage permanently or that all higher education is completely free. We also cannot viably curtail free trade and expect to come even close to any of these goals.
This is completely off message and against the original intent of the movement. This movement is about a rejection of failed capitalism. It is not inherently against capitalism as an economic system, it is a recognition that plutocratic capitalism doesn't work, and our current system has broken.
Our demands should be simple:
Tax rates should be restored to the Clinton era levels. Tax loopholes should be closed. Monopolies should be broken up. Incentives should be extended to small businesses owners or individuals looking to start their first business in the form of low interest loans, grants, and tax breaks.
Education costs are exorbitant. This is a byproduct of the schools themselves. It is not SallieMae's direct fault that it costs $45,000 to go to George Washington University. We must be responsible and intelligent in our demands. We must push for greater government investment in education at all levels, and we must provide incentives to schools who can offer students greater assistance and lower costs.
We must ensure the health of every American as the most basic service covered. All American's MUST have healthcare. In order to ensure a healthy nation and a stable workforce, this is in my opinion the tantamount demand. ALL American's should be provided adequate healthcare.
Social Security is an important issue and we must take action to either fix it now, and I mean NOW, so the youth in this country have access to a system they have paid for, or we should set a cut off point and begin to allow folks under a certain age to KEEP the money for their own personal retirement.
Lastly, the banks must be held accountable for their actions. The Koch Brothers are criminals. Brian Moynihan should be run out of town. Pay for failure bonuses and compensation must be put to an end. No more can we allow $20 million dollar bonuses for failure. We reward hard work and success in this country, and we must make sure they don't forget it.
I's strike a few of those demands as foolish. I would however include an abolition of lobbyists and include campaign reform as practical methods of keeping politicians eye on the ball.
This is the dumbest list of demands I have ever seen. Why don't you just wish for the end of the world! You are asking for money on one hand and asking to eliminate it on the other hand. HOW CAN YOU WHIPE OUT ALL DEBT? That's retarded, it clearly shows that you have a 0% understanding of money.
How about occupying General Electric? Why not pick a specific filthy rich company that gets special treatment from government? Deal with the injustice of GE and show other corrupt companies and their political friends they have to play by the same rules. Don't attack all companies. Otherwise, there will be no jobs and no money for anyone, including the 99 percent. Go after the truly corrupt companies! GE is the place to start.
Way too extreme, to galvanize a populus you have to appeal to masses. The issue is a need for change, the foundation of the country is still sound, it is the process. Change will continue to be problematic until we can simplify the process. Everything that grows beyond a sustainable level must contract, we need to streamline the process of government.
Demand 1: Term limits for Congress (Senate -2)(House-5) Purpose: To inspire sense of urgency by elected officials to effect change. If you have a "fixed window" you will get results Demand 2: An equal cap for spending on election Purpose: To level the playing field to allow for any citizen to run for office and be heard Demand 3: A line item veto Purpose: To eliminate wasteful riders on bills and focus on issues.
These list of demands are unrealistic and should be kept to a minimum. The simple fact is money has reshaped our Constitunal Republic into some other form of government. You are essentially destroying the movement. How many people do you think are looking at this website right now? People that are bound and determined to destroy this movement are going to use this and demonize the entire thing.
Loyd, are you aware of the totality of how things work, and the interactions, and the impacts? It looks like that you are not. Other other making not thought out demand screeches, do you have anything that's thought out logically? Interestingly, there is one very large thing missing from your high school level demands, that is a broad effort to reduce the now high level of corruption in our government and our society. That corruption exists on both sides of the political spectrum the Left and the Right. I imagine that you don't want to hear anything about corruption on the Left.
And dammit, make Pluto a planet again!!
And dammit, make Pluto a planet again!!
I'm guessing Lloyd J will have to change his phone number soon.
And congrats, buddy. "Admin note" to the contrary notwithstanding, your list of demands has been glued onto the popular perception of OccupyXYZ, and made it a laughingstock.
I demand that the demands not demanded by OccupyWallstreet.org be made public or else I demand that the protesters that follow the non-existing demands from OccupyWallStreet.org demand that OccupyWallStreet.org make public their demands at the risk of looking extremely moronic, idiotic, stupid, ridiculous.
"Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands."
For the record, I first heard about "Lloyd's List" on MSNBC, followed by CNN. It gave both anchors a chuckle. If this isn't an official list of demands, proposed or otherwise, why do you allow it to remain on the official website for the movement? It seems to me you're inviting bad press, and trying to blame someone else's poor judgment on the media. If this doesn't represent the ideas and proposed demands of the movement, take it down. Help yourself instead of blaming others.
As for not having an official list of demands, you might want to give that some thought. Right now on EVERY news network, not just the ones you consider "faux" or "right-wing", Occupy participants are being portrayed as uninformed, confused about the message, uneducated as to the facts of the Wall St bailout, and in some cases, just downright lazy, petulant and silly.
"Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands."
For the record, I first heard about "Lloyd's List" on MSNBC, followed by CNN. It gave both anchors a chuckle. If this isn't an official list of demands, proposed or otherwise, why do you allow it to remain on the official website for the movement? It seems to me you're inviting bad press, and trying to blame someone else's poor judgment on the media. If this doesn't represent the ideas and proposed demands of the movement, take it down. Help yourself instead of blaming others.
As for not having an official list of demands, you might want to give that some thought. Right now on EVERY news network, not just the ones you consider "faux" or "right-wing", Occupy participants are being portrayed as uninformed, confused about the message, uneducated as to the facts of the Wall St bailout, and in some cases, just downright lazy, petulant and silly.
I don't know what is scarier these ideas or the fact that the majority of people would go along with it. Those who would go along with this are 2 types. The ones that really believe it would work are one type. The other type who are for it, really know how crazy it is and the total break down it would bring to the whole order of life. Never-the-less the later would be for it because they are just that evil. How about it Lloyd what group are you in.
Everyone claims to be against the Government until they want a Govt. job or they want our Military to go FREE Tibet!
BOOOOOOBZ
Ending the destructive drug war that supplies fresh customers for privatized prisons should be added to this list.
Legalize drugs, drop the war on drugs. There will be not much increase in drug usage. Statistics indicate drug use will actually reduce once legalized.
HAS ANYBODY THOUGHT ABOUT WORKING TOGETHER?!?!?!?!?!?!? Going on this site and fighting amongst ourselves is wasting time when Congress and Senate keep giving raises to each other! They get healthcare for life. Does anyone on here get to give themselves a raise? Does anyone on here get free healthcare for the rest of their life? They are the only people in the U.S. that for two or four years of work get free healthcare!!!! Why are we fighting with each other? Drop the Liberal and Conservative from your name. Drop the Republican or Democrat from your mindset and let’s work together!
This is sheer idiocy. Distill the stupidity out of these demands and you may have one or two coherent points, but for the most part this is a recipe for disaster.
For instance, "debt forgiveness for all" would be devastating, not just to rich people and banks, but to most of the people in the "99%". Where do you think banks get the money to lend out? Why, from the bank accounts of every day people. If debts are forgiven, the means to cover bank balances suddenly evaporates meaning that any money you currently have in your savings account will disappear after all the banks inevitably topple (and no, the FDIC doesn't have enough to cover all these losses without severely crippling the Federal government).
No savings account, you say? Well, you'll probably have to kiss your job goodbye (assuming you have one). Once debt is forgiven, you can pretty much guarantee that no one will be lending or borrowing money any more. Since most businesses need some kind of investment capital up front, you can pretty much rest assured that there will be less (if any) jobs available. Not to mention that many businesses float credit to customers to maintain a comfortable relationship. How many layoffs are likely to occur when that debt is no longer getting paid?
So basically, with less companies paying taxes (due to their lack of existence) and no where to borrow money, where to you propose to find the funds to deliver on Demands 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 & 7?
These demands would destroy the world economy so quickly, we'd practically be living in medieval times again.
Seriously, people like you undermine this type of cause by providing ammunition to the other side.
This list is all over the place. What should be on this list is the massive "wealth redistribution" that has gone on for the last 30 years. With the decline of unions and the lowering of the marginal tax rates from 90% in 1950's to 36% now, all of the nation's wealth has been paid out at the top to the corporate executives.
The middle class spends their wealth on goods and services and the corporations have redistributed their wealth by paying their profits all out to the executives and shareholders. Middle class wages have stagnated for 30 years while executive wages have gone up 256% in since 1980. Even last year executive compensation went up another 11%. The top 1% now controls over 42% of the entire nation's wealth. We have not seen numbers like this since the great depression. The top 10% controls 70% of the entire nation's wealth. All of our nation's wealth has been redistributed into the hands of the few.
The middle class was roped into replacing wages with easy credit. So instead of paying people living wages, corporations fooled us into thinking we were doing well and could afford things by giving us easy credit instead of wages. Instead of having wages to buy t.v.'s, furniture, etc. we were given easy loans. So the middle class became a debtor class.
There used to be a tax disincentive to paying out all of corporate profits at the top because in the 1950's income was taxed at 90% over a certain amount money and now that tax disincentive has disappeared. In 1950's the highest marginal tax rate was 90%. In 1960-1970's it was 70%. In 1980's it dropped to 49%. In 1990's dropped to 39%. Under George Bush it dropped to a mere 36%. We have had over 30 years of massive tax cuts for the wealthy.
There is now no tax disincentive to paying out all of the corporate wealth at the top. And there is no employee bargaining power because now less than 12% of all of our jobs are unionized. Corporate profits are at an all time high, healthcare company profits are at an all time high, and oil profits are at an all time high. We don't have a healthcare crisis we have a healthcare company profit-taking crisis that no politician will doing anything about. Healthcare and oil companies have enjoyed a decade of record profits while we have had a decade of massive premiums for little coverage and a decade of outrageous gas prices.
The problems are: 1) deregulation of the banks by the Republican-controlled congress in 1999; 2) hedge funds are exempt from regulation; 3) tax system no longer has a disincentive against paying outrageous executive salaries (highest marginal tax rate has dropped from 90% to 36%); 4) commodities market is exempt from regulation (Republican-controlled Congress exempted it in the Commodities Future Modernization act of 2000); 5) the Supreme Court has ruled that corporations can spend unlimited funds in campaign elections (thus politicians on both sides favor the wealthy/corporations) and 6) the rise of corporate/billionaire propaganda media "news." Because of the need to raise massive sums in politics today, we no longer have a party that represents the people. The Democrats have to chase the corporate and big money donors too.
What can we do about this: 1) re-instate Glass-Steagall Act regulating the banks; 2) regulate hedge funds and the commodities market (because the commodities market is not regulated speculation has caused prices for commodities to go through the roof); 3) get rid of the money in politics (have federally funded elections with clear limits on spending and no outside groups allowed to have ads); 4) get rid of 1980's laws stating that corporations' only duty is to maximize shareholder profits; and 5) regulate "news" channels and newspapers (no more "slanted opinion news" masquerading as hard news) and reinstitute the fairness doctrine across all news outlets to ensure that both sides get equal time.
Corporations should have duties to society and to their workers too. They should have to balance their duties to maximize shareholder profits against their reinstated duties to their employees and to society. The laws saying that corporations' only duty is to maximize shareholder profits have led to the destruction of long-term business plans and care for their workers and have created short-term profit monsters at the expense of workers and society.
For 30 years corporations have been shafting their workers. Workers moved from having pensions to having 401ks that they had to fund themselves and that allow wall street to gamble with their retirement funds. Workers have gone from having paid for healthcare coverage to having to pay more and more of their own coverage. Workers have had to work harder and harder and work more hours. Worker "productivity" is at an all time high in the U.S. And, at the same time middle class salaries have not gone up in 30 years. The only reason the middle class did not realize this is that the wealthy and corporate america got the brilliant idea that they could loan the middle class money instead of paying them money. They said let them eat credit.
The problem is that the billionaire controlled media is duping the American people into thinking that further cutting taxes and further deregulation will save them even though those are the exact things that got us into this mess.
I truly admire your passion and thoughtfulness. It is evident that you are open to thoughful debate, and that is what we truly need to bring about change. We need to make our debate a single issue, tackle 1 issue at a time to effect change.
Thank you!
The Govt. still owns half of GM. Meaning WE own half of GM! We need the debt forgiveness #1!!!! The big banks on Wall Street are crushing us "little people"! We need the credit reporting agencies but at the same time they need MAJOR reform! If we can get these two things, we are going to be off to a better start. If we have one trillion from the Government, divide it and pay off the average citizen’s debt! We need to get these idiots in Congress and Senate to stop giving pay raises whenever they want to each other! And they get FREE healthcare the rest of their life! Are you kidding? We need to get that taken away! It's not a Republican or Democrat issue! They fight amongst themself to make us feel like they are doing something while they go on a paid vacation for a week or for several as the case may be depending on the time of year! Don't think they are "Mortal Enemies" as (R) Baynor played golf with (D) Obama a short time ago. I don't play golf with the co-workers that I don't like in my office! We need to drop the “Liberal” and “Conservative” or “Democrat” and “Republican” and start working together to sway Congress and Senate. We the people are divided! Tom Jefferson one of our Founding Fathers said that the Govt. should fear the people, not the people fearing the Govt. Where do you think we stand? Do they fear us? I know I fear them!
Demand nine is a warm/fuzzy. Are we going to demand that all nations open their borders. There are many places in the world I would love to live & work. Other countries don't want a near poverty striken old woman at their door step. Immigrant labor translates into cheap near slave labor, always has, Until we get citizens back to gainful employment it's a not starter for the majority of US citizens.
Demand nine is a warm/fuzzy. Are we going to demand that all nations open their borders. There are many places in the world I would love to live & work. Other countries don't want a near poverty striken old woman at their door step. Immigrant labor translates into cheap near slave labor, always has, Until we get citizens back to gainful employment it's a not starter for the majority of US citizens.
Im surprised no one has mentioned all the money "WE THE PEOPLE" Give to other countries as Aid... I believe in helping countries that are in desperate need of Aid, but we first have to deal with the debt and all of the Disasters in our own Nation! As of Right Now the USA needs to notify all the Foreign countries, we Donate our hard earned money to, that all Aid of any kind will cease unitil we can get our Broken Down House Back in Order!!!
What a Joke. Demand: I am not responsible for my own spending. I am entitled to everything just because I am American. My government (Which is the Taxpayer) should pay me for doing nothing. I deserve to have everything the rich have even though I have not worked for it. We should not secure the boarder and let anyone who wants to come in do whatever they please. We should force people to buy healthcare even though it is un-constitutional. Wake up you fools. STOP spending money we don't have! P.S. Unions were great in their beginings, now they are killing this country.
These demands are unrealistic. Especially demand #11. People need to take responsibility for the loan they accepted. The banks should not have given out the loans to begin with, I agree with that, BUT those taking the loans should not have taken them if they could not pay them back. A more realistic approach would be to demand a much smaller interest rate.
holy crap. you "Bum Around Wall Street" people are fucking idiots.
We need to put our heads together and figure out a way to hurt Wall Street without hurting our selves.
Like, when the British were hurting India, Ghandi asked everyone to make their own salt. That got their attention, and was ultimately successful.
Personally, I think we all should boycott Coke or Home Depot. I don’t shop at Home Depot now unless I have to, and since I don’t do Coke anyway, that aint much of a Sacrifice for me. On the other hand, Coke & Home Depot, are members of ALEC which is the Org. behind the Conservative legislative Agenda that is attacking Union Rights.
We need to do something that like that which is easy for folks to do, and sends a strong message to the Corporate world to stop all this foolishness.
Lol this is some funny fucking list! How about you throwbacks stop demanding & start producing.
If you get demands 1 and 3 what do you need the rest for? Just sit on your lazy, worthless, non-productive ass and smoke pot.
losers.
If you get demands 1 and 3 what do you need the rest for? Just sit on your lazy, worthless, non-productive ass and smoke pot.
losers.
1, Give us back our Constitutinal Rights!!
Short sweet and to the point
1, Give us back our Constitutinal Rights!!
Short sweet and to the point
the whole idea is gettin out there and doing something for a change, fight for something for once, yea everything isnt going to be the way you want it to the T but its a start, which is more than i can say for those that rip apart every little detail...get with the program fellas ya signup up so ya got that far now get off your asses :)
Well, I made a comment and it vanished. Wonder why? Does Occupy Wall Street actually HAVE a list of 'Official' demands? Where is it? Why don't they show what they want to happen if this ain't it?
So, if this isn't the "Official" list of demands, what is the whole thing about? What demands does Occupy Wall Street actually have? Why did everybody show up? Where is the "Official" list, if it exists?
First and foremost our focus should be getting corporate sponsorship out of our government. Period. Repeal/amend the Citizens United decision.
What a ludicrous name for something that goes so hard against the citizens of this country.
Here is an idea - Lets let the greedy, political lobbying Unions join our cause. After all they have to have a high wage so they can pay dues to the RICH Union bosses so they can hire the lobbyist to get the Politicians to make laws and give money to the Unions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
These fools don't have a clue as to what they think they are doing, all of then just want something for nothing and think the working people should support them!!!!
ows does not need to have demands. It is an autonomous zone not governed by elected politicians but by twitter algorithms and collaborative filtering. This may be the precursor of the US (or the world?) entering into the information age. In this age the direction a society goes will be determined by open source algorithms on the internet and collaborative filtering and not by politicians. There will be no more corporations using tools like people's health or cars to make profit. There will be organizations governed by the same algorithms and collaborative filtering to make cars, iphones and
take care of the sick. Organizations will exist because several needs of the society like making cars or building homes are too complex for one person to carry out. But these organizations will not be guided by profit. They will function the same way as #ows on wall street does now. A new currency, the bitcoin will be introduced, so the fat cats can keep their dollars. You can fight it or join it. It is up to you.
Although this is a single individual, here is my critique as this is being used by the news as a formal document.
There is no consistency between each demand. Reading this as is, it seems as if these were jotted down based on free thinking or brainstorming.
1) $20/hr? Erroneous. I refuse to accept that someone working at a job DESERVING minimum wage be provided any more money than is necessary to live.
2) What no one makes obvious is that universal healthcare is not working well in other countries. We are a capitalist country and imposing non-capitalist requirements destroys the benefits that make the United States the wonderful country it is.
3) No. Welfare is in place and many people abuse it. Guaranteed living wage is not a birthright. Food is. Move on.
4) No. Lowered college tuitions should be demanded, but the "free" education system is ridiculous. Additionally, if all citizens gather a college tuition, the number of students being hired will actually decrease.
5) Agreed.
6) These are responsibilities of the state, not the fed or wall street. Protest your state government.
7) Refer to 6. Nuclear power is not a hazard. Improper maintenance in Japan does not mean we have the same problem.
8) Yes. Nothing to do with Wall Street, though. Move your protest and isolate the protests to a specific demand or collection of demands.
9) Open borders migration? Work anywhere in the US. It's legal. If you want a job elsewhere, get a Visa and live in another country.
10) We have them. Having the civilians actually push local governments for an impeachment should be enacted if there are questions or disagreements.
11) Don't take loans you can't pay. Stop using credit for money you don't have. Capitalist countries do not thrive on citizens who cannot support themselves. They thrive on a collective of citizens who do obtain loans based on their money. The US economy is failing because of indiscretions of both corporations and the citizens who are not using their money correctly.
12) Agreed. Credit companies, however, need a way to gauge the reliability of the individual. Change the statement. Have FEWER credit reporting agencies, or limit the access to the information provided by them to specific types of companies, rather than all loan/credit providers.
13) Agreed.
These requests are not all incorrect, but they are not all applicable to the forum in which they are being presented. Disband, organize the information & demands, and present the protesting and information in the appropriate venues.
Although this is a single individual, here is my critique as this is being used by the news as a formal document.
There is no consistency between each demand. Reading this as is, it seems as if these were jotted down based on free thinking or brainstorming.
1) $20/hr? Erroneous. I refuse to accept that someone working at a job DESERVING minimum wage be provided any more money than is necessary to live.
2) What no one makes obvious is that universal healthcare is not working well in other countries. We are a capitalist country and imposing non-capitalist requirements destroys the benefits that make the United States the wonderful country it is.
3) No. Welfare is in place and many people abuse it. Guaranteed living wage is not a birthright. Food is. Move on.
4) No. Lowered college tuitions should be demanded, but the "free" education system is ridiculous. Additionally, if all citizens gather a college tuition, the number of students being hired will actually decrease.
5) Agreed.
6) These are responsibilities of the state, not the fed or wall street. Protest your state government.
7) Refer to 6. Nuclear power is not a hazard. Improper maintenance in Japan does not mean we have the same problem.
8) Yes. Nothing to do with Wall Street, though. Move your protest and isolate the protests to a specific demand or collection of demands.
9) Open borders migration? Work anywhere in the US. It's legal. If you want a job elsewhere, get a Visa and live in another country.
10) We have them. Having the civilians actually push local governments for an impeachment should be enacted if there are questions or disagreements.
11) Don't take loans you can't pay. Stop using credit for money you don't have. Capitalist countries do not thrive on citizens who cannot support themselves. They thrive on a collective of citizens who do obtain loans based on their money. The US economy is failing because of indiscretions of both corporations and the citizens who are not using their money correctly.
12) Agreed. Credit companies, however, need a way to gauge the reliability of the individual. Change the statement. Have FEWER credit reporting agencies, or limit the access to the information provided by them to specific types of companies, rather than all loan/credit providers.
13) Agreed.
These requests are not all incorrect, but they are not all applicable to the forum in which they are being presented. Disband, organize the information & demands, and present the protesting and information in the appropriate venues.
create a transparent voting system
where each voter's vote are public information
if the citizens stand behind their votes
everyone will counted
Laughing my a** off! What are you clowns??? Ivy League drop-outs or worse ...graduates? You have taken a possible good movement and turned it into a joke ...how sad. Now the only alternative is a real revolution for any change.
why don't we just tear up the constitution while we're at it. open borders?? man, i can't believe im reading this. 20 dollar minimum wage.....hahahahahha. how is that going to help business? free college......ok, just slap on more taxes so i can pay for the lazy and under-employed education. once lazy, always lazy. school won't change that. you will just go to holding up a sign saying how unfair life has been to you anyway. F""K OFF!!! guaranteed income whether you work or not.....did i read that correctly?? how many doobies did the writers of these demands have?? or editors?? im surprised that the demand for public sex with a donkey isn't on here somewhere. WTF
why don't we just tear up the constitution while we're at it. open borders?? man, i can't believe im reading this. 20 dollar minimum wage.....hahahahahha. how is that going to help business? free college......ok, just slap on more taxes so i can pay for the lazy and under-employed education. once lazy, always lazy. school won't change that. you will just go to holding up a sign saying how unfair life has been to you anyway. F""K OFF!!! guaranteed income whether you work or not.....did i read that correctly?? how many doobies did the writers of these demands have?? or editors?? im surprised that the demand for public sex with a donkey isn't on here somewhere. WTF
My response to the OWS 13 item list of demands is too long to post here. If you wish to read and comment, please go to http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewarticle.asp?id=63951&AuthorID=35966. Though I strongly disagree with your list, I support your right to protest; and be safe while you are doing it.
Wow. Better to keep quiet and let people think you're an idiot than to post your "demands" on the web and remove all doubt. Who's paying for all this free stuff and debt forgiveness? Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money. Don't you see that's what's happening here... and in EUROPE!? You really need to take some economics courses (and pass them) before you start spouting stuff like this or you will simply stay on the fringe of the discussion. Trillions of dollars of debt can NOT be "forgiven". But if you're in a forgiving mood, why not start by forgiving all YOUR assets first. Go ahead. Sell all your stuff (including the computer you used to post this tripe) and donate the proceeds to charity. Maybe then you'll feel better about things because you've actually accomplished something.
Why aren't you protesting the NBA, NFL, MLB, the music industry, JZ, Beyonce, Mark cuban, Lebron James, Reggie Bush. These athletes and entertainers have more money than the wallstreet people you claim to hate. sit out in front of Yankee stadium and deman ARods money. See how you make out.
Wow. Better to keep quiet and let people think you're an idiot than to post your "demands" on the web and remove all doubt. Who's paying for all this free stuff and debt forgiveness? Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money. Don't you see that's what's happening here... and in EUROPE!? You really need to take some economics courses (and pass them) before you start spouting stuff like this or you will simply stay on the fringe of the discussion. Trillions of dollars of debt can NOT be "forgiven". But if you're in a forgiving mood, why not start by forgiving all YOUR assets first. Go ahead. Sell all your stuff (including the computer you used to post this tripe) and donate the proceeds to charity. Maybe then you'll feel better about things because you've actually accomplished something.
Wow. Better to keep quiet and let people think you're an idiot than to post your "demands" on the web and remove all doubt. Who's paying for all this free stuff and debt forgiveness? Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money. Don't you see that's what's happening here... and in EUROPE!? You really need to take some economics courses (and pass them) before you start spouting stuff like this or you will simply stay on the fringe of the discussion. Trillions of dollars of debt can NOT be "forgiven". But if you're in a forgiving mood, why not start by forgiving all YOUR assets first. Go ahead. Sell all your stuff (including the computer you used to post this tripe) and donate the proceeds to charity. Maybe then you'll feel better about things because you've actually accomplished something.
If you offered any of these protesters 1 million dollars in cash they would take it and be in Bloomingdales in a heartbeat.They are angry because they have no money. GET A JOB LAZY PEOPLE.
End Freetrade but Free Boarders? That sounds terribly inconsistant and a recipe for disaster. This country is already overcrowded and the environmental and social costs would never be able to sustain especially if you want anything like a single payer system. Sorry Lloyd but this is all just crazy talk.
FACES OF GREED...follow the money!
Here is a list of all the directors of the banking system http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/listdirectors/
Timothy Geithner- Secretary of Treasury (Oversees and controls money flow and interest rates in America) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Geithner - check out central banking.
Top Ten Fortune 500 Companies
Bill Simon – CEO of Walmart
Peter Voser – CEO of Royal Dutch Shell
Rex Tillerson – CEO of Exxon Mobil
Robert Dudley – CEO of BP
Fu Chengyu – CEO of Sinopec Group
Jiang Jiemin – CEO of China National Petroleum
Liu Zhenya – CEO of State Grid
Akio Toyoda – CEO of Toyota Motor
Jiro Saito – CEO of Japan Post Holdings
John Watson – CEO of Chevron
This is a list of the top campaign contributors for the last 23 years. http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php
Follow the money and see whose hands it falls into- who the debt falls on. You call this a coincidence?
"Create so many jobs," except for the college professors who wouldn't get paid anymore, the health insurance workers which would become unemployed overnight, the majority of the people making minimum wage whose employers cannot afford to pay them $20/hour, the workers at nuclear power plants (over 100 plants), all people working in credit reporting agencies, debt collectors, bankers, and loan officers. Not to mention that nobody would EVER be able to take out a loan again, which means that you might have to be working for 20-30 years before you can afford a house. But I suppose that is all okay because of demand three. If you ever come up with an effective strategy for accomplishing demand three, you will be a trillionaire (which wouldn't be very much money under your demands). People tried demand three before, Google "USSR" to see how that went. I sympathize in that we are both stuck in this economy, but how about letting somebody who thinks from time-to-time come up with the ideas, since that doesn't seem to be your forte (maybe we should start with some remedial high school before we start you on the free college).
Take an economics course, and learn how to balance a checkbook.
Now, I hate the corporate greed and the income inequality that we have, but these demands are so unrealistic they really just give you no credibility.
A minimum wage of $20/hr?! This isn't fantasy land, this is America. Start making practical, rational demands and people will take you seriously.
I think this guy has passed the point that anybody would ever take him seriously.
FACES OF GREED...follow the money!
Here is a list of all the directors of the banking system http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/listdirectors/
Timothy Geithner- Secretary of Treasury (Oversees and controls money flow and interest rates in America) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Geithner - check out central banking.
Top Ten Fortune 500 Companies
Bill Simon – CEO of Walmart
Peter Voser – CEO of Royal Dutch Shell
Rex Tillerson – CEO of Exxon Mobil
Robert Dudley – CEO of BP
Fu Chengyu – CEO of Sinopec Group
Jiang Jiemin – CEO of China National Petroleum
Liu Zhenya – CEO of State Grid
Akio Toyoda – CEO of Toyota Motor
Jiro Saito – CEO of Japan Post Holdings
John Watson – CEO of Chevron
This is a list of the top campaign contributors for the last 23 years. http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php
Follow the money and see whose hands it falls into- who the debt falls on. You call this a coincidence?
You say these aren't your demands and yet when a person does a search of your demands, it leads to this page. Which you support... on your website. Seems like it is your list of demands to me.
Focus- Abolish corporate influence on all political systems worldwide and let the decision making be put into the hands of whatever culture(in its entirety) is going to be ultimately effected by what are presently and strictly the decisions of the wealthiest people on earth. Occupy Chico continues this Saturday. Join us
This is not a list of demands; it is merely a list:
Oh, so anyone who hits you with logic gets their comments deleted, hunh, Lloyd? That doesn't change the fact that you are an idiot and so are your protesters.
This is ridiculous. We need to pay down our debts and create jobs. Entrepreneurship, not free-for-all programs is the only way that will occur. Instead of handouts, the government needs to provide incentives to job-creators. This should be a march on Capitol Hill and the failed President Obama. I deserve nothing. You deserve nothing. Like Notorious BIG said, "Everything you get you got to work hard for it."
OK Numbnuts, Demands 8 and 13 already exsist, which means Demand 4 isn't gonna work until you learn something in highschool.
I agree with navingrey and jumpstart. Some of these demands are kinda out of touch with reality, unresearched.
I like Demand #6 --> http://www.ccclegacy.org/
You sound like a bunch of children with these demands. Keep it simple and have it to three or less demands.
So, in regard to "Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment": does that mean the end of Affirmative Action, and racial, gender, and ethnically biased hiring and selection practices that discriminate against white males? It would appear to. And, it would certainly eliminate any racially or gender biased scholarships, incentives, awards, and almost all such organizations like NOW, the NAACP, etc.
Hate to say this but it seems to me that some of these "demands" are so "pie in the sky" that even the average American would shy away from them as desirable as they seem to some. Rather than try to "win" everything at once I'd stick with the points/demands that directly correlate to Wall Street and Corporate abuses. Demands like: 1,2,3,10,13
Bless you, Lloyd Hart. I was nervous that your demands might be an acknowledgement of their alleged power. But, no, these are worthy and will work. Might I suggest that at or around October 15th, people make a pledge not to pay any bills of any kind for one month and one day. That will eliminate the need for 12 and go a long way towards demand 11.
This is exactly why the protest is ignored by politics and media (not that there is much of a difference). There is simply no way 11 of these could be implimented without asking those who have stuff to give all of it up for nothing in return. A living wage would be nice, and a huge infrastructure bill to fix the bridges and put Americans to work with something that can't be outsourced.
But to forgive all debt means an immediate end to banking as we know it. While there may be advantages to that, it's not going to happen. We won't turn suddenly socialist - but we can strengthen the social safety net. Credit reporting won't be outlawed - but we can ask that the consumer credit protection laws have some teeth. And Health Insurance companies have too much power, they have too many employed people to be outlawed.
Can someone put together a realistic list? Something like - meaningful campaign finance reform to keep corporate interest out of the election. Strengthen the laws that keep tax dollars from ever bailing out a private company.
And put a Trillion into infrastructure - I really like that one, and it's a demand that helps literally everyone.
...
But, instead of a demand list, how about this - Occupy Wall Street seeks to get America talking about how the educated young professionals have inherited a weak, broken, hopeless nation. They/We were promised that if we towed the line, followed the directions, that we would be OK. Not super wealthy, but we could have a home, a job, a future, and know that if we got sick, we could get well again.
That seems to be a lie, a con, and we feel like dupes. We don't believe in the American Dream anymore. That's really all this is about. To get people talking about what is wrong, that it's everyone's problem.
Well - it's the problem of 99%. So, technically, not everyone's problem.
¶Impose a financial transactions tax. This would be a modest tax on financial trades, modeled on the suggestions of James Tobin, an American economist who won a Nobel Prize. The aim is in part to dampen speculative trading that creates dangerous volatility. Europe is moving toward a financial transactions tax, but the Obama administration is resisting — a reflection of its deference to Wall Street.
¶Close the “carried interest” and “founders’ stock” loopholes, which may be the most unconscionable tax breaks in America. They allow our wealthiest citizens to pay very low tax rates by pretending that their labor compensation is a capital gain.
¶Protect big banks from themselves. This means moving ahead with Basel III capital requirements and adopting the Volcker Rule to limit banks’ ability to engage in risky and speculative investments. Another sensible proposal, embraced by President Obama and a number of international experts, is the bank tax. This could be based on an institution’s size and leverage, so that bankers could pay for their cleanups — the finance equivalent of a pollution tax.
I like the idea of the movement but anyone remotely educated in economics can easily see massive flaws in it and at least pull this specific page down so the news doesn't get a hold of this.
Nice job Lloyd. I don't know if you realize how much this list has hurt the cause. Way to give a metric ton of ammo to Fox News.
Occupy Wall Street needs only one demand:
"Return to accountability and the rule of law".
Same for rich as for poor.
Everytime I feel down and need a good laugh.......I come back and read this inane "list of demands". Thank you for this.
ALSO END THE FOREIGN UNCONSTITUTIONAL WARS
These demands are a little too much. Some are good, and I completely agree with the movement, etc. However, you cannot demand this much from the government. Let's be more reasonable. Also, you should add something in about foxnews and cnn. It is not right that these media sources are the primary sources of close-minded mind control. In addition to mind control, we should be able to VOTE FOR OUR PRESIDENT ONLINE! No more ballet boxes. "If online banking works, then why not vote online.? Let the people vote!" Gerald Celente
Sadly the Wall Street crowd is amused but certainly not fearful as the occupation protests aren’t hurting them in the least. They also know that those in the senate and congress whose campaign coffers they regularly fill will never enact legislation to fully protect the 99%. If anyone wants to really hurt the bankers and investors suddenly cutting off their flow of money would do it in short order. The movement should advocate that the 99% demand that by 28 Oct 2012, the anniversary of Black Friday, the crash of 1929, that the banks do the following or we will simply stop paying our mortgages, credit cards and loans:
BANKING: Free personal checking accounts with deposits and debits credited the day they occur rather than sit on deposits to make someone overdrawn so as to stick them with fees and penalties and the elimination of all ATM / debit card related fees.
CREDIT CARDS: Permanently lower credit card interest rates to 7% and eliminate all fees.
STUDENT LOANS: Reduce all student loan interest permanently to 3.25% and extend them by ten years.
FIRST MORTGAGES: Reduce all first mortgage principals to actual current market values, extend the loan by ten years and permanently drop the interest rate to 3.25%.
SUBORDINATE MORTGAGES: Strip any and all subordinate mortgages if they, combined with the first mortgage, exceed the true market value of the home.
What can they do? Foreclose on every house in the country? Call and harass everyone with a credit card or loan? India could never stand-up that many call centers. They'd be completely powerless for once and would go into full panic mode and do so quickly as their friends in congress and the senate could do absolutely nothing to turn the cash spigot back on. They'd know the fear of the impending loss of everything just as they caused countless millions.
Money is their world. Nothing else matters. Keep it from them and they’ll be brought to their collective knees.
Where are these jobs coming from, moron? There won't be any importing or exporting because you banned free trade. There won't be income from oil companies, insurance companies, or basically any other company because you forgave all the debt... therefore a lot of companies are going out of business. Also, at $20 hour, many companies are going out of business and the ones who stay in business will raise prices to cover their employment costs. I really think this whole movement is just a joke to show how dumb people are; that they could actually think your demands were real. Are you really Glen Beck? C'mon.. admit it. You are.
This shit is laughable. This is America. We WORK for what we want. It's not given freely. These people have very large self entitlement issues.
Go get a damn job and stop bitching about what you don't have and appreciate the things you do have!
If you are poor it's because you CHOOSE to be.
You are the stupidest person on the entire planet, Lloyd. I want to know where the hundreds of trillions of dollars to support your socialist utopia is coming from. Because there won't be anyone making any money or any corporations to pay any taxes under your idiotic ideal Moron.
This can't be for real. Is this for real? Is this what my tax dollar funded public education system taught our future? Holy crap, I dare say the day is near where I'm embarrassed to say I'm an american. Have the stupid socialists looked at every country that is socialist/communist? They are all poor and have no human rights. Nowhere now or in the past has this Utopian crap ever worked. I really think I have been getting robbed of my tax money if it created a generation this retarded. Next demand, free high grade marijuana for all, and a wii, and a couch in a basement where I can play games all day, and a robot brings me food. I also think everyone should have a pet unicorn, but I want the government to invent one that breathes in CO2 so the unicorns will also help global warming. I also want the government to invent a drug that lets me live for 200 years, no wait 300 years, and make a drug for my pet unicorn too. Please god save us from the absolute madness and stupidity from these whining spoiled degenerates. Boo hoo, I have it so hard. I have food, an education, the opportunity to make something of myself, clean potable water, security, paved roads, electricity, boo hoo I have it soooo bad. Screw wall street, make Iphones more affordable, and make people invest billions to invent new technology and medicine and then make them give it away for free. YOU PEOPLE ARE STUPID, GO TO CHINA OR CUBA AND SEE HOW MUCH BETTER THEY HAVE IT THAN HERE! PHUCKING RETARDS!!!!!
While I do agree in a gathering of ideas and a virtual assembly of what changes need to happen to better our country and its livelihood, this list makes the 'Occupy' movement seem like a childish, far-left brainstorming session.
In order to accomplish anything when demanding something, you have to realize that things WILL NOT happen overnight and you may actually want to think of taking a more concise and more centerist approach.
Sites like this that have this HUGE list of demands with no thought on how they should be met are why people still think of this as a joke. Show them we are serious please!
I propose we add the following:
Demand Fourteen: No person shall have to work if he or she does not want to.
Demand Fifteen: To fight hunger, anyone can eat at any restaurant for free.
Demand Sixteen: Outlaw all countries.
Demand Seventeen: Doctors should work only out of the goodness of their hearts and thus should not be paid.
Demand Eighteen: Anyone should be able to borrow money whenever he or she wants and not have to pay it back.
Demand Nineteen: If someone borrows money and does not pay it back, it can not be held against them in any way.
Demand Twenty: If any person prefers being a student to working, that person may remain in school for as long as he or she likes, for free.
Demand Twenty One: If anyone does not want to try as hard as someone else, he or she should not be punished for it.
Demand Twenty Two: Outlaw all money.
This is the most idiotic thing I have ever read... The only thing that makes any sense is gender and racial equality for all...Am i reading this correctly? Debt forgiveness across the board and outlaw credit agencies.... so i am assuming we'll have absolutely no way of know how trustworthy someone is when they borrow money. (And don't tell me we shouldn't borrow money... I agree we shouldn't borrow in excess... but if you eliminate borrowing all together you send this economy back to the middle ages... my job was created because my employers borrowed money and they were smart about it) Do something better with your time and get a job or go to school... or is that in violation of Demand 4?
This is the most idiotic thing I have ever read... The only thing that makes any sense is gender and racial equality for all...Am i reading this correctly? Debt forgiveness across the board and outlaw credit agencies.... so i am assuming we'll have absolutely no way of know how trustworthy someone is when they borrow money. (And don't tell me we shouldn't borrow money... I agree we shouldn't borrow in excess... but if you eliminate borrowing all together you send this economy back to the middle ages... my job was created because my employers borrowed money and they were smart about it) Do something better with your time and get a job or go to school... or is that in violation of Demand 4?
This is the most idiotic thing I have ever read... The only thing that makes any sense is gender and racial equality for all...Am i reading this correctly? Debt forgiveness across the board and outlaw credit agencies.... so i am assuming we'll have absolutely no way of know how trustworthy someone is when they borrow money. (And don't tell me we shouldn't borrow money... I agree we shouldn't borrow in excess... but if you eliminate borrowing all together you send this economy back to the middle ages... my job was created because my employers borrowed money and they were smart about it) Do something better with your time and get a job or go to school... or is that in violation of Demand 4?
Here's a more simple and concise goal to aim for, two root concepts that America needs to re-attain:
1) Free up the media - a publicly funded press that isn't required to turn a profit, can be free to seek out & report actual news, including reclaiming its purpose as watchdog of our Democracy.
2) Voting reform, beginning with public funding (and not corporate funding) for candidates, and institution of a run-off election process whereby citizens can freely vote for the candidate they truly believe will serve our great nation best, knowing if that person doesn't command the most or second most votes, that they'll then get the opportunity to vote for one of the top two candidates in round two...no more voting for the lesser of two evils, no more allowing the two ruling parties to ignore the masses.
Don't fall for the us vs. them, Dems vs.Repubs....it's time for the People to be heard!
If you don't advocate it, why are you putting it on your website? Either you're for these demands or not. Which is it? The American people would have to give up their FREEDOM if they agreed with these silly "demands." Go to Greece if you want to live under Communism and social failure. I actually laughed out loud reading them. No wonder these cuckoos don't have jobs!
In other words, let's be open border communists. With these demands met, who is going to start and operate a business? Where will capital come from to create jobs? The only answer consistent with theses demands is the state, so the state will be the only employer and only provider of goods and services. This didn't work out so well for the Soviet Union. Of course, how can I expect people of this age from our current education system to get this? They were taught neither history nor critical thinking skills.
There are serious economic issues to be addressed, and some blame and punishment to the offenders needs to happen. But destroying the only economic system that has a chance of working is not a solution.
Watch my new movie, SPOiLER - How a Third Political Party Could Win and my previous movie, CORPORATE FASCISM - The Destruction of America's Middle Class.
Watch my new movie, SPOiLER - How a Third Political Party Could Win and my previous movie, CORPORATE FASCISM - The Destruction of America's Middle Class.
THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL LIST OF DEMANDS, THE ARTICLE EVEN SAYS THAT IT ISN'T AND THAT IT'S JUST A FORUM USER'S POST. Goddamnit. Read all of it before you start bitching about it, guys. Don't believe everything the news tells you. Yes, some of the things on here are simply too ambitious and cannot be done, but again - THIS IS A RANDOM USER'S POST THAT WAS HYPED UP BY THE MEDIA, PROBABLY JUST TO MAKE THE PROTESTERS LOOK BAD.
Watch my new movie, SPOiLER - How a Third Political Party Could Win at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHQj9wtW3nA ------ and my old movie, CORPORATE FASCISM - The Destruction of America's Middle Class at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTbvoiTJKIs
Watch my new movie, SPOiLER - How a Third Political Party Could Win and my previous movie, CORPORATE FASCISM - The Destruction of America's Middle Class.
Watch my new movie, SPOiLER - How a Third Political Party Could Win at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHQj9wtW3nA ------ and my old movie, CORPORATE FASCISM - The Destruction of America's Middle Class at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTbvoiTJKIs
Watch my new movie, SPOiLER - How a Third Political Party Could Win at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHQj9wtW3nA ------ and my old movie, CORPORATE FASCISM - The Destruction of America's Middle Class at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTbvoiTJKIs
Watch my new movie, SPOiLER - How a Third Political Party Could Win at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHQj9wtW3nA ------ and my old movie, CORPORATE FASCISM - The Destruction of America's Middle Class at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTbvoiTJKIs
So basically drive all the capital out of this country for good.... I think this is ready for the presses! Loyd, you an econ major or what? Why don't you give a shout out to your alma mater....
Occupy Wall Street needs: 1) showers 2) a work ethic 3) something other than crack and granola in their diet 4) a clue as to how business and financial markets work in a market economy and in a flat (global) system. 5) A copy of Atlas Shrugged, the Fatal Conceit and Human Action 6) (since they like comparing themselves to the french revolution) a whiff of grapeshot
If any of you hippies spent half as much time taking responsibility for yourselves as you did complaining about others you'd have great lives and nothing to complain of. But it's easier to rob from others and smoke pot than put forth a little effort, isn't it?
http://www.goldstockbull.com/articles/7-demands-from-occupy-wall-street/
i'm in agreement with this article at that these demands should be presented as our prioritized goals. the 7 major demands of the movement
Shows a child's grasp of economics. Pretty much "he got ice cream, I want some too!!!" That and the usual laundry list of big labor/progressive carve outs. EQUALITY FOR EVERYONE (and extra equality for me).
We need to rewrite the constitution for 2011.
Congress should take oral and written examinations to prove they can do the job.
Filling government positions should be based on what you know, not who you know.
Politicians should wear digital halos that turn red when they lie.
If you can't eliminate them all together then special interest groups and lobbyist meetings should be on live television in the evenings when most of us are home from work.
Voting should be done American Idol style on community & federal issues
We should all have to study and participate in running our government not turn our backs and complain after we vote.
OPEN THE BORDERS?????? Seriously????? Are we just supposed to let anyone and anything in???? How about making ENGLISH the dominant language in America so that English speaking americans can get a job WITHOUT having to be bilingual..... I agree that the demands need to be streamlined and focused more on AMERICANS
This is how you bankrupt the world
If any of you hippies spent half as much time taking responsibility for yourselves as you did complaining about others you'd have great lives and nothing to complain of. But it's easier to rob from others and smoke pot than put forth a little effort, isn't it?
If you advocated mathematically perfected economy™ instead, you'd accomplish as much of this as is practical. You'd also spell the end of Wall Street. Otherwise, there isn't a hope of accomplishing these goals. MPE™ is your only way.
People for Mathematically Perfected Economy & Absolute consensual representation by Mike Montagne is the only solution - check it out....it is real people power - government for and by the people and economics for and by the people.
Is this the kind of lunacy your student loan paid for?
Is this the kind of lunacy your student loan paid for?
Is this the kind of lunacy your student loan paid for?
Is this the kind of lunacy your student loan paid for?
America is broke. This is nothing but a socialist wish list of entitlements an' giveaways...more "I don't wanna work for a living!" and "Why spend mine when I can spend yours?" slugs an' slackers who think the world - an' especially the USA - owes them a living.
For the benefit, grace an' blessing of being born an American citizen, they should feel they owe the nation something back - remember "Ask not what your country can do for you - Ask what you can do for your country"???
Like I said at the start, America is broke, Just who in th' hell do these parasites think is gonna PAY FOR all these demands they have?...an' who do they think they are issuing demands when they have done nothing to earn or deserve the right to demand anything? Society owes them nothing...an' neither does the world at large, for that matter. Whatever happened to "earn your own way?" Thank You, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, LBJ, an' Barry Ozero...we now have an entire generation of pampered public welfare parasites...an' we cannot afford them...the public teat has dried up...so has the wishing well... If this street rabble is representative of the upcoming generation of Americans, then, as a nation, we are in some really deep doodoo... These protestors don't know how to do anything but whine an' make nonsense demands...that will never get them anywhere but skid row or behind bars...They need ideas, not posters making senseless demands that cannot and will not be met...Who do they think they are, anyway?
America is broke. This is nothing but a socialist wish list of entitlements an' giveaways...more "I don't wanna work for a living!" and "Why spend mine when I can spend yours?" slugs an' slackers who think the world - an' especially the USA - owes them a living.
For the benefit, grace an' blessing of being born an American citizen, they should feel they owe the nation something back - remember "Ask not what your country can do for you - Ask what you can do for your country"???
Like I said at the start, America is broke, Just who in th' hell do these parasites think is gonna PAY FOR all these demands they have?...an' who do they think they are issuing demands when they have done nothing to earn or deserve the right to demand anything? Society owes them nothing...an' neither does the world at large, for that matter. Whatever happened to "earn your own way?" Thank You, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, LBJ, an' Barry Ozero...we now have an entire generation of pampered public welfare parasites...an' we cannot afford them...the public teat has dried up...so has the wishing well... If this street rabble is representative of the upcoming generation of Americans, then, as a nation, we are in some really deep doodoo... These protestors don't know how to do anything but whine an' make nonsense demands...that will never get them anywhere but skid row or behind bars...They need ideas, not posters making senseless demands that cannot and will not be met...Who do they think they are, anyway?
America is broke. This is nothing but a socialist wish list of entitlements an' giveaways...more "I don't wanna work for a living!" and "Why spend mine when I can spend yours?" slugs an' slackers who think the world - an' especially the USA - owes them a living.
For the benefit, grace an' blessing of being born an American citizen, they should feel they owe the nation something back - remember "Ask not what your country can do for you - Ask what you can do for your country"???
Like I said at the start, America is broke, Just who in th' hell do these parasites think is gonna PAY FOR all these demands they have?...an' who do they think they are issuing demands when they have done nothing to earn or deserve the right to demand anything? Society owes them nothing...an' neither does the world at large, for that matter. Whatever happened to "earn your own way?" Thank You, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, LBJ, an' Barry Ozero...we now have an entire generation of pampered public welfare parasites...an' we cannot afford them...the public teat has dried up...so has the wishing well... If this street rabble is representative of the upcoming generation of Americans, then, as a nation, we are in some really deep doodoo... These protestors don't know how to do anything but whine an' make nonsense demands...that will never get them anywhere but skid row or behind bars...They need ideas, not posters making senseless demands that cannot and will not be met...Who do they think they are, anyway?
I'm sorry if not that informed on a lot of the issues, so this may seem naive but I think a lot of issues with greedy fat cats be resolved if we could enact a income cap. Say CEOs can only make 200 times annually the income of their lowest paid worker. Regulate the greed. Also regulate their ridiculous bonuses, they are laying off worker left and right but taking multi-million dollar bonus. I would say that they shouldn't be able to get more than their annual income in bonuses, annually. Still a good deal for the "elite" 400 times the pay of their lowest paid worker, and I bet everyone would be making more than minimum wage. I know many people reading this are saying but that not how a free country works, well this country isn’t truly free (never has been) and it definitely isn’t working. In fact I think it's broke. You may think these ideas won't work , but really "open the borders" , that is just plain stupid.
I'm sorry if not that informed on a lot of the issues, so this may seem naive but I think a lot of issues with greedy fat cats be resolved if we could enact a income cap. Say CEOs can only make 200 times annually the income of their lowest paid worker. Regulate the greed. Also regulate their ridiculous bonuses, they are laying off worker left and right but taking multi-million dollar bonus. I would say that they shouldn't be able to get more than their annual income in bonuses, annually. Still a good deal for the "elite" 400 times the pay of their lowest paid worker, and I bet everyone would be making more than minimum wage. I know many people reading this are saying but that not how a free country works, well this country isn’t truly free (never has been) and it definitely isn’t working. In fact I think it's broke. You may think these ideas won't work , but really "open the borders" , that is just plain stupid.
America is broke. This is nothing but a socialist wish list of entitlements an' giveaways...more "I don't wanna work for a living!" and "Why spend mine when I can spend yours?" slugs an' slackers who think the world - an' especially the USA - owes them a living.
For the benefit, grace an' blessing of being born an American citizen, they should feel they owe the nation something back - remember "Ask not what your country can do for you - Ask what you can do for your country"???
Like I said at the start, America is broke, Just who in th' hell do these parasites think is gonna PAY FOR all these demands they have?...an' who do they think they are issuing demands when they have done nothing to earn or deserve the right to demand anything? Society owes them nothing...an' neither does the world at large, for that matter. Whatever happened to "earn your own way?" Thank You, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, LBJ, an' Barry Ozero...we now have an entire generation of pampered public welfare parasites...an' we cannot afford them...the public teat has dried up...so has the wishing well... If this street rabble is representative of the upcoming generation of Americans, then, as a nation, we are in some really deep doodoo... These protestors don't know how to do anything but whine an' make nonsense demands...that will never get them anywhere but skid row or behind bars...They need ideas, not posters making senseless demands that cannot and will not be met...Who do they think they are, anyway?
America is broke. This is nothing but a socialist wish list of entitlements an' giveaways...more "I don't wanna work for a living!" and "Why spend mine when I can spend yours?" slugs an' slackers who think the world - an' especially the USA - owes them a living.
For the benefit, grace an' blessing of being born an American citizen, they should feel they owe the nation something back - remember "Ask not what your country can do for you - Ask what you can do for your country"???
Like I said at the start, America is broke, Just who in th' hell do these parasites think is gonna PAY FOR all these demands they have?...an' who do they think they are issuing demands when they have done nothing to earn or deserve the right to demand anything? Society owes them nothing...an' neither does the world at large, for that matter. Whatever happened to "earn your own way?" Thank You, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, LBJ, an' Barry Ozero...we now have an entire generation of pampered public welfare parasites...an' we cannot afford them...the public teat has dried up...so has the wishing well... If this street rabble is representative of the upcoming generation of Americans, then, as a nation, we are in some really deep doodoo... These protestors don't know how to do anything but whine an' make nonsense demands...that will never get them anywhere but skid row or behind bars...They need ideas, not posters making senseless demands that cannot and will not be met...Who do they think they are, anyway?
Who is John Galt?
So basically drive all the capital out of this country for good.... I think this is ready for the presses! Lloyd, you an econ major or what? Why don't you give a shout out to your alma mater....
Occupy Wall Street needs: 1) showers 2) a work ethic 3) something other than crack and granola in their diet 4) a clue as to how business and financial markets work in a market economy and in a flat (global) system. 5) A copy of Atlas Shrugged, the Fatal Conceit and Human Action 6) (since they like comparing themselves to the french revolution) a whiff of grapeshot
Somebody needs to remove this post. MODERATOR??? This is currently a top Google search result of a recommended search on this subject and it's an embarrassment to the movement... This insane list is the sort of stuff the media likes to throw out there to the masses as a display of what dumb, freeloading hippies we all are.
Lol, making the minimum wage $20 an hour?! Not unless you want unemployment to spike to 20%. Hell, why not make the minimum wage $1,000 an hour? And what the hell? They want open borders, but they also want high protective tariffs? So people can come in freely, but not goods? LMAO. Forgiveness of all debt. Can't the people who make your website at last take Economics 101? Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies. LOL. You might as well outlaw all loans! Do you even know what caused the financial crisis? Banks giving loans to people with crappy credit!
I agree with these, but I think like others have said the demand should be "laser focused." I propose that we regain our democracy by making corporate political donations illegal. We need to reverse the SCotUS decision that made Corporations have the rights of individuals.
I got my own demand. The abolishment of money world wide. There you go all the problems on that list would be solved over night.
Wow nice list, you people have a screw loose, are any of you over 12?
That's right, make all small businesses pay $20 an hour to all employees and expect them to create jobs.
America has the best healthcare in the world because we don't have a government run system. Rationing healthcare isn't Amerian.
All you have to say is more regulation, more handouts, and a socialist society. Take a lesson from Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain. We don't have to make the same mistakes. Clue - it didn't work there...
That's right, make all small businesses pay $20 an hour to all employees and expect them to create jobs.
America has the best healthcare in the world because we don't have a government run system. Rationing healthcare isn't Amerian.
All you have to say is more regulation, more handouts, and a socialist society. Take a lesson from Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain. We don't have to make the same mistakes. Clue - it didn't work there...
Dude, whatever you're smoking... keep it the hell away from me!
Paying people to NOT work is crazy and enables laziness, why would I work for the same wage I get from doing nothing? And where does this magical money come from... unicorn farts? Happy rainbow money trees?
Forgiving all debts that people WILLINGLY TOOK OUT LOANS AND AGREED TO PAY BACK is encouraging irrisponsibility and would ruin the economy instantly. Forget not being able to find work, think about not being able to find FOOD if this happened! This would literally be theft.
Outlawing insurance companies and credit reporting agencies is simply destroying privately owned companies by force. These demands would require a powerful, totalitarian regime like that in soviet Russia during Stalin's time.
How about the multiple trillions in spending in addition to the money we don't have that's already been spent?? More unicorn farts and magical money trees? Are you really this disconnected from reality?
This is the craziest, most foolish and incoherent set of dribble I've ever seen!
Let's make life easy call Moscow and have them come over and show us how to do everything real well/ Or maybe you can get off your lazyass, get some ambition, that a job and I don't care what your wage is, I am tired of hearing every body gets the same, some people just don't work hard and I am tired of caring them!!!
Total equality requires free hookers too. And in the interest of fairness, you need to do one of every gender (genders are generalized by necessity into 6 categories - process called genderalization, an unfortunate but necessary compromise). Power to the private parts!
Total equality requires free hookers too. And in the interest of fairness, you need to do one of every gender (genders are generalized by necessity into 6 categories - process called genderalization, an unfortunate but necessary compromise). Power to the private parts!
There is not one single thing that I disagree with on this list. If only we owned some politicians like the rich companies do. If only we had representative government. America is a corporatacracy ! It's time to form a democracy!
For the USA I would break it down to the following demands which are all realistic demands that the government can implement.
DEMAND TWO DEMAND FIVE DEMAND TEN DEMAND SEVEN DEMAND EIGHT
Did you notice the Admin note above the list of demands? OccupyWattSt.org "COLLECTIVE"? NYC "GENERAL ASSEMBLY". Where have I seen these terms used before......... oh, that's right. Those are the same terms used in the political infrastructure of China and the former Soviet Union. The "COLLECTIVE" hasn't approved these demands, but they're floated for discussion to gauge how people will accept these points before making them "OFFICIAL".
If this isn't an official list reached by a consensus, why publish it under your name? I think it summarizes the self-entitled nature of this "revolution" very well. Of course something like this will be reported by news organizations. Your inability to take responsibility for anything is exactly why this movement is mocked, and will inevitably fail. "Wah, corporations. Wah, the government. Wah, capitalism." Here is my list of demands: 1) Stay off the bridge. 2) Grow up.
What a Bunch of Worthless Un Educated Idiots.Always wanting something for Free.Get freaking Job Loosers.The best part of you guys ran down you moms legs and ended up as a wet spot on the bed.You guys should have been Aborted with a Rusty Clothes Hanger....You guys make me SICK!!!
What a Bunch of Worthless Un Educated Idiots.Always wanting something for Free.Get freaking Job Loosers.The best part of you guys ran down you moms legs and ended up as a wet spot on the bed.You guys should have been Aborted with a Rusty Clothes Hanger....You guys make me SICK!!!
good starting point for negotiations.
How do we deal with corporate greed? That's the number one thing wrong with the economy. Corporations make more money with cheaper labor - result jobs go out of the country. Corporations (banks) charge us more to hold our money. When the BoA dude said they have a right to make money, I wanted to throw up. How many millions does he get in his bonus?
How do we deal with corporate greed? That's the number one thing wrong with the economy. Corporations make more money with cheaper labor - result jobs go out of the country. Corporations (banks) charge us more to hold our money. When the BoA dude said they have a right to make money, I wanted to throw up. How many millions does he get in his bonus?
How do we deal with corporate greed? That's the number one thing wrong with the economy. Corporations make more money with cheaper labor - result jobs go out of the country. Corporations (banks) charge us more to hold our money. When the BoA dude said they have a right to make money, I wanted to throw up. How many millions does he get in his bonus?
How do we deal with corporate greed? That's the number one thing wrong with the economy. Corporations make more money with cheaper labor - result jobs go out of the country. Corporations (banks) charge us more to hold our money. When the BoA dude said they have a right to make money, I wanted to throw up. How many millions does he get in his bonus?
I am all for the universal single payor health care system. I have worked in the healthcare field for over 25 years now. The number one problem with healthcare are the insurance companies.
I am all for the universal single payor health care system. I have worked in the healthcare field for over 25 years now. The number one problem with healthcare are the insurance companies.
Common sense financial regulations to prevent economic suicide (Flash Trading, Speculation, Leverage)
[Have gotten good feedback from using neckties as noose imagery to drive home the point about short term greed equaling economic suicide. The sound bites below may help the imagery]
———————————————————————————————–
This is not a declaration of war against greed, in the traditional sense. This is, in part, a rebellion against suicide.
Long term "greed" is not suicidal; 401ks, pension and retirement funds, higher education and home ownership, are all variations of wanting more. The expectation of a healthy return in proportion to capital invested over a reasonable amount of time has always been considered normal.
The hope for a bigger return on increased investment over an increasing length of time could be labeled long term greed, though as long as risk remained in reasonable proportion to size and immediacy of reward, was never previously considered harmful, and more often simply considered a sustainable investment strategy and good business sense.
Sense departs when addictions present themselves however, and addictions untreated are suicide. The repetitive exposure to increasingly risky behavior in proportion to immediacy of reward is a form of pathological risk and reward addiction, and in the form of Flash Trading, Speculation, Insufficiently Leveraged Holds and other high risk gambling behavior, has become life threateningly endemic throughout this current incarnation of our financial industry, and should accordingly be treated as a major public economic health issue.
If corporations have been afforded the considerations of legal person hood, so too might medical person hood of corporations, and our economy at large, be considered. As volatile metrics are not precursors to lengthy lifespans, so too do the wildly fluctuating valuations evidenced in our daily stock markets pulse warn of an erratic vital statistic; an indicator so drastically unpredictable and wide ranging in any normal person would be considered dangerously unhealthy.
No healthy person makes spontaneous 2 billion dollar losing bets with company stock for personal benefit. No healthy person laughingly causes power outages on a hot California day to increase that days share price. No healthy person sells customers his products while simultaneously betting against them.
No healthy industry bankrupts its own consumer base for short term profit.
No sane government assists it in doing so.
Addicts cannot always be solely depended upon to police themselves, interventions in extreme cases are necessary. In the same manner that the other destructive behaviors of addiction are sensibly monitored and protected against, particularly with regard to our nations engineers, pilots, and decision makers, so too can we not submit to the danger of our economic engine being maintained, navigated and manipulated by short sighted extreme risk takers.
The financial sector cannot sensibly be considered a sustainable investment repository until common sense regulations against Flash Trading, Speculation, and Insufficiently Leveraged Holds are implemented, thereby helping to save us, and it, from its suicidal self.
Reading the comments I keep wanting to ask you all "What's the difference between Stupidity and Ignorance?"
Ignorance is CURABLE - stupidity ain't! Lloyd and everyone who agrees with these "demands", I am obliged to inform that you are NOT Ignorant!
Way to trivial and generic.
Where is demand for affordable, nationwide, "Not-for-profit Health Services"?
Where is the demand to end 'for-profit' public education?
Where is the demand to abolish 'for-profit' law enforcement and prisons?
Where is the demand for free, universal and standardized health records?
The demands listed look foolish and impractical and hold out this movement to ridicule.
That said, the need for action is clear and when and as that call is taken up, hopefully more concrete goals and objectives will take center stage.
PS: End the chat room censorship.
living wage.... I really cannot agree with that.
So what do you want a poverty wage?
Ugh - more "gimme gimme" ... When are Americans going to take personal responsibility and QUIT asking the govt to do things for them? This is NOT what I thought Occupy was about - This is a sham & a shame. Simple list of demands: Bring our troops home NOW to guard our borders. Make Congress fulfill their Oath by creating our money/Quit using the FedReserveBank. Ensure all laws, codes, statutes adhere to the Constitution. End all corporate donations to politicians/campaigns
I demand that a REAL leader take the helm here; one who is personally responsible & doesn't count on the govt for anything except for the essentials (coining our money, protecting our borders). I demand that we quit saying 'democracy' - we have a Constitutional Republic folks!
Hey! Where are my comments? They were here a minute ago!
Ugh - more "gimme gimme" ... When are Americans going to take personal responsibility and QUIT asking the govt to do things for them?
This is NOT what I thought Occupy was about - This is a sham & a shame.
Simple list of demands: Bring our troops home NOW to guard our borders. Make Congress fulfill their Oath by creating our money/Quit using the FedReserveBank Ensure all laws, codes, statutes adhere to the Constitution End all corporate donations to politicians/campaigns
HA HA HA HA! You guys are a riot. Dream on, kiddies. Leave your powerbooks at home join the real world.
This is great! Who cares about jobs when I can get a living wage without working?! Sweeeeeet!
Who thinks violence is acceptable if demands are not addressed within a reasonable timeframe?
You guys are all nuts! Get a job and stop wasting everyone’s time!
You guys are all nuts! Get a job and stop wasting everyone’s time!
You guys are all nuts! Get a job and stop wasting everyone’s time!
What a childish and selfish list.
IMHO
"Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr." - would only make things more expensive seeing how the new low is this much, all prices would rise so the new wage would seem to be like the old
"Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live." -Too me this would continue to allow the current behavior of outsourcing the work to the lower paid and cause other security issues.
So maybe these could be revised. Just my thoughts on them.
Almost As Bad As A Bad Star Trek Movie Review (Most The Odd Ones Don't Suck Quite As Much as The Even Ones)!! ((LOL)))))))))
OWS needs to focus on one goal and one goal only! That goal should be to remove the ROOT of the evil which is the FEDERAL RESERVE!!
Federal Reserve are not Federal, and do not have a Reserve. They are the people fixing interest rates and giving out free loans to banks!
They are the counterfeiters debasing our currency by printing fiat money out of nothing!
They are the source of our fractional reserve system that allows these banks to steal from us!
They are the ones monetizing the debt so the gov't can bailout the wallstreet and corporations!
The root of the evil is the Federal Reserve! We need a full audit, and we need to re-legalize gold & silver as competing currency using the market to phase out the Federal Reserve!!!
[Removed]
Too much pot and not enough reading. Obviously.
This many demands will cause the whole movement to get nowhere there can only be one
Too many demands! focus on one that way the message doesnt get confused something like "bring the bankers to justice" or "demand a criminal investigation into the banks actions" this has too many conflicting driections
Men face discrimination at all levels of society:
http://intelligencesquaredus.org/index.php/past-debates/men-are-finished/
I hope Demand 8 includes us WHITE MEN
End gender class and race warfare.
I think that you need to focus on approx. 3 demands with number 1 being stopping banks and big corporations to control government. Without that nothing else will be met cause the government is not representing interest of people. That should be the first demand cause 99% of people are united against coruption.
[Removed]
we support these demands and support this movement!!!
Gettting rid of money prttey much covers it... Lets discuss how to make that happen. Maybe we can just all get together and withdraw what ever little we have and put it all on the door steps.
I'm going to have to get some of whatever you have been smoking!!
Hell, I'm just piss'd that these demands aren't official.....
[Removed]
Sounds like you want Uncle Sam to now be Santa Claus. This list sounds like a greedy demand to "give us free stuff" on your neighbor's dime. You are attempting to set up a colossal govt to take care of you cradle to grave, thus making all future generations dependent on this govt. That is the road to slavery and despotism. This is not the path of people are smart, accountable, and free, and will hurt everyone, as Greece is finding out.
Liberalism is a (failed) philosophy of unintended consequences. It's obvious from your demands that you don't have a clue that you don't have a clue. I.E. you're a-cluistic. Lloyd, you're living in La La Land
In other words, you want utopia, which doesn't exist. Once you all get done there in the Land of Oz, please click your heels together and join the rest of us in place called Realityville.
[Removed]
[Removed]
Liberalism is a (failed) philosophy of unintended consequences. It's obvious from your demands that you don't have a clue that you don't have a clue. I.E. you're a-cluistic. Lloyd, you're living in La La Land
Most of your proposals seem to involve leaving intact the whole high-overhead, cost-plus markup culture, and then guaranteeing everyone enough money to buy the stuff at the markup price.
And your demand for a trillion in new infrastructure is in keeping with the old mass-production, industrial-age paradigm, in which it's OK for the entire economy to be owned by giant, capital-intensive corporations like GM, just so long as they're unionized and give good jobs to people like Michael Moore's dad. That's the economy in "Brazil."
We should be doing just the opposite: funding the construction/maintenance/expansion of all highways and airports entirely with user fees on the trucking and airline industries -- for example, weight-based tolls on trucks. That would result in less demand for infrastructure, and a relocalized economy.
State subsidized, below-cost infrastructure -- the land grant railroads described in The Robber Barons by Josephson, the federal aviation system created entirely at government expense, and the Interstate Highway System -- is at the root of corporate capitalism. Subsidies to any production input are subsidies to the corporations whose business model relies most intensively on that input. So subsidies to long-distance transportation lead to artificially large firms producing for artificially large market areas. The Interstate Highway System is one of the main reasons agribusiness plantations in California can offer broccoli cheaper to Massachusetts consumers than nearby truck farms can. It's the reason the big boxes' "warehouses on wheels" model is driving Main Street retailers out of business. Promoting state polices with that effect and then demanding spending on ecological restoration is working at cross-purposes.
Our general aim should be to promote a relocalized, high-tech, low-overhead economy that's less dependent on centralized infrastructure, in which production costs are lower, in which waste labor and waste from planned obsolescence are eliminated, and in which it takes an average of 20 hours or less a week to produce the equivalent of the value we consume.
Eliminate the laws like Taft-Hartley and right-to-work that reduce the bargaining power of labor, so that labor receives its full product as a wage.
Eliminate all subsidies and protection to big business, and eliminate all forms of artificial scarcity, entry barriers, and artificial property rights, so that lowered production cost is fully translated into imploding consumer prices. That means eliminating all patent and copyright law, eliminating all barriers to information freedom, voiding all absentee titles to vacant and unimproved land, abolishing all regulatory cartels that empower oligopoly businesses, and eliminating all policies whose primary effect is to impose overhead and entry costs on household-based microenterprises. The idea is for peer production to do to corporate commodity production, in as many areas of economic life as possible, what file-sharing did to MCA and Wikipedia did to Britannica.
Encourage a shift of as much production as possible to commons-oriented peer production, and self-provisioning in the informal, neighorhood, and household economies.
Encourage primary social units like urban communes, neighborhood cohousing projects and cooperative associations, intentional communities, and extended family compounds, and a revival of the kinds of mutuals and friendly societies described by Kropotkin and E.P. Thompson as means for pooling income and risk.
And use work-sharing to reduce the work week so that whatever paid labor is still required is evenly distributed.
Instead of "creating jobs," we should be breaking the 200-year-old link between work and jobs, and enabling people to meet their needs with their own skills and labor in cooperation with other people, without depending on some corporate hierarchy to give them permission in the form of a "job" to translate their labor into subsistence.
"Jobs" came into existence because of a technological shift from affordable, general purpose artisan tools to specialized machinery so expensive that rich people had to pool their money to buy it and then hire people to work it. Open-source hardware hackers have reduced the cost of CNC machine tools by two orders of magnitude, to the point that a garage factory with $10 or $20k worth of tabletop tools can produce the kind of output that once requiired a million-dollar factory.
PLEASE REMOVE THIS LIST FROM THE WEBSITE. I can't believe this is a valid list of even purposals, much less, voted on as a major PASS.
I would also like to add a couple things. In the trillion dollar infrastructure change I would like all roads to now be chocolate rivers, all houses to be made of ginger bread, and snow will now be falling marshmellows. Maybe we can even have a moon made of real green cheese. Oh the possibilities are endless. Damn these bankers for hogging all the cash to make dreams come true. Oh I love meth
These demands work for me.
All these demands (with the possible exception of 10 &13) require force to carry them out. All these demands with the exception of 9 & 10, will destroy the job market. Why no demands for freedom?
I like the intention but this will not do! The demands are to many and to weak. My demands would be:
Demand number one is long term while the others are short termed
Do a search for 'Occupy Wall Street demands,' and this is the first substantive thing that comes up. It's easy enough to overlook that it's being made in a forum setting and take it for an "official statement" representing the 'movement', and to then dismiss the movement as a whole; and this is, of course, how right wing commentators (and many people not at all aligned with the right) are treating it, if only disingenuously.
If the organizers came up with a list of demands, rather than just the complaints listed in their recent statement, this would not have to suffice as the top result. It is weakening and will continue to weaken the credibility of the 'movement'--which is not yet a movement--that it hasn't presented any progressive strategy or list of actionable demands. Meanwhile the failure to simply moderate comments like this one with any sort of readily apparent disclaimer, the general indie-left ethic of directionless, uncritical inclusivity, reflect a broader unseriousness to how the Occupation is presenting its message. The festival vibe threatens to eclipse any substantive position on the part of the movement it presumably represents. It looks, in short, amateurish.
Dear Organizers: Stop playing around already. You've got the attention of the world. Don't just stand up there and dance and chant, march cheerfully back and forth around the city, pat each other on the back at General Assembly, slap a "REVOLUTION" sticker on the whole package and then balk and lay blame when the unconverted don't buy it. Don't blow this. The effect that this single post has had on your ability to be taken seriously should be an embarrassment and a wake-up call. Tighten up. Or else it's not just going to be the right-wing commentariat concluding that this kind of tinfoil hat flakery is the best you can come up with.
relax. nobody takes this nonsensical movement seriously anyway. These laughable "demands" just confirm what most people suspected
What about a single law mandating that no one at a company could make more than 100x their lowest paid employee? Any excess profit would either have to be reinvested in the company (new jobs, equipment, etc.) or returned to shareholders. If a CEO gets 100 stock options, then all employees at the company must also get at least 1 share each. Any income that exceeds the 100-to-1 ratio is taxed at 100%.
Obviously, this is still pretty extreme to allow a CEO to make 100 times their lowest paid employee, but at a time when a single hedge fund manager can be paid more than $5 BILLION in one year (almost 1 million times an annual minimum wage job!), moving this back to 100-to-1 would be a major course correction. Is one person really worth 1 million other people?!!?
If minimum wage is ~$10,000/yr. a 100-to-1 ratio allows a CEO to be paid $1 million per year. If a CEO wants to be paid $10 million, then they better be able to improve the company to a point where the lowest paid employee gets $100,000 per year. Otherwise, tough luck CEO. Want $100 million for the CEO? Can you pay everyone at the company $1 million?!! I thought not.
Reasons this could work are as follows: 1) Simplicity: 100-to-1 is even easy to chant 2) Immune to the "big government" charge, since companies have the choice to reward their workers/shareholders directly rather than let excessive income go to the government. 3) Would not hurt small business (do not make more than 100x their employees). 4) Could also be applied on an hourly basis to contract workers (otherwise companies will simply eliminate all their low paid staff and hire temps). 5) Allows competition to continue as successful companies would be attractive for the best workers. 6) Finally recognizes the human capital (labor) that helps drive capitalism.
7) Other slogans:
"Real patriots don't exploit their employees" "A real leader lifts their employees up rather than stepping on their heads"
There really are some really screwed up loon balls in this country. This list of demands is simply part of the game that has been played out for centuries people. Pit us against each other instead of against the true puppet masters out there creating this mess. They have done it over and over. Occasionally a country will stand up and abolish the institutions that rape the people of their resources. However, they always re-establish themselves and suck the people dry. If you don't know who I am talking about then you still have a bit of history to learn. These demands are pathetically childish for a reason. The screwed up thing is that so many ignorant kids fall for it.
Finally, people are not taking shit from Wall Street. We are finally thinking about Franklin D. Roosevelt's Second Bill of Rights. His Second Bill of Rights proposes, the right to a job, right to adequete food/clothing/recreation, right to have freedom from monopolies/unfair business practices, right to a decent home, right to medical care, right to adequete protection for economic fears of old age, sickness, unemployment, accident, and the right to good education. That is exactly what the U.S. needs. Let's hope we get these demands and others.
So, what if I don't want to work but to simply sit in my society provided home eating my society provided bon-bon's, watching T.V. on my society provided LCD television while wearing clothes provided happily by the fellow members of society? Is that okay? Is it okay if I then become morbidly obese and have society pay for my healthcare? Is it okay if I sit back and enjoy the fruits of everyone else's labor?
nope because you have a right to a job so that you can facilitate your own pursuit of happiness
Ahhh. I get it now. I have an OBLIGATION to be employed. It's not a choice. What if I don't want a job? What if the pursuit of my own happiness consists of contemplating nature or sitting at my computer day in and day out taking in all the world wide web has to offer? Do I get paid to do those things? After all, they do facilitate my happiness. What if I choose to be a student for life, someone who goes to school from the time I'm 18 until I'm 88? Is society supposed to pay for that. And finally, what if I offer to do a job that I really want for $3.50 an hour because it makes me happy? Can I take that job or because the minimum wage is set by law at $20 per hour am I precluded from doing so?
What if I don't want a job? What if the pursuit of my own happiness consists of contemplating nature or sitting at my computer day in and day out taking in all the world wide web has to offer
Then find a way to have it support you.
Do I get paid to do those things? After all, they do facilitate my happiness.
The only thing regarding happiness you are guaranteed is the ability to pursue it, it is up to you to find a way to support that pursuit
What if I choose to be a student for life, someone who goes to school from the time I'm 18 until I'm 88?
You can do that if you can support it.
And finally, what if I offer to do a job that I really want for $3.50 an hour because it makes me happy? Can I take that job or because the minimum wage is set by law at $20 per hour am I precluded from doing so?
Minimum wage prevents that as is, so no change.
So what you seem to be saying is that each of us is obligated to work only on terms acceptable to society or the collective. If I choose to work for $3.50 an hour, minimum wage be damned, I can't do so? That doesn't seem like freedom to me. After spending a bit of time on this site reading the comments I've come to the conclusion that the authors haven't really thought it through. There doesn't seem to be the application of critical thinking skills with regard to economic outcomes. I wish someone, you or Lloyd or someone would point us toward one, just one country with a size comparable to the United States that has implemented even a fraction of these proposed policies successfully while still respecting the notion of personal sovereignty and liberty. Sure, you can mandate by law some of these things but the cost to society will be steep. You can mandate a $20 minimum wage but I guarantee that people will work under the table for less just to have a job. You can mandate universal healthcare but I guarantee that the quality of healthcare will diminish and care will be rationed. Maybe you want to live in that world, that Borg collective world but I don't. Unfortunately you all will probably have some of your "demands" met but guess what....the real villains won't be touched. The globalists, the bankers, the Federal Reserve.....they will get richer and you will have your $20 per hour job while you pay $500 for a loaf of bread. Good luck!
To be clear, I am the first of the people i know to point out every time the minimum wage is increased that it is not going to solve anything because the cost of doing business just went up.
That is why on your minimum wage point all I said is "Minimum wage prevents that as is, so no change"
I am not sure about anyone else but I posted about this two hours prior to you just in much more elaborate detail. You put it much more succinctly. You can find it by using the find feature and searching for colossal. my screen name is such because this list = my screen name
Right on. You made my day.
20 dollar an hour wage would create incredible inflation if everyone has more money businesses will charge more therefore economy would level out to how it would be now just things would cost much more and we would look like post WWI Germany.. By the way nuclear energy is THE most efficient form of alternative energy. Open borders would kill the job market for Americans. Free living wage for everyone would then leave America to have no incentive to find a job. By the way the only way to get all this money to clear debts and raise minimum wage is for the fed to print more money which would again create incredible inflation making the present economy look like the thirties in terms of inflation. things are so much more complicated than you think. oh by the way, replanting forests and such would get in the way of putting in solar fields and windmill fields cuz guess what? those fields go in farmland and open country
"By the way the only way to get all this money to clear debts and raise minimum wage is for the fed to print more money"
or you could fold your empire which would help all but the super rich and the world could be a little more peaceful. Love them wars, no matter how much they cost.
Good luck with that. Obama didn't stop any of the wars, started MORE of them in fact, and he had public support that King Bush the Second could only DREAM of.
If we confiscated EVERYTHING that the "wealthy" have, it wouldn't pay for one year's worth of Obama's brand new debt.
Your reply is yet more magical thinking.
Run the numbers, and you'll see that it just doesn't work.
Here's a better list of proposed demands (if you win these, the other things will come on their own): http://www.citizenamerica.org/downloads/MiddleClassBillofRights.pdf
For #11: This means everyone with a mortgage would own their homes free and clear, right? How would renters feel about that when they need to pay rent, but mortgage holders don't have house payments? Also, the landlord now owns the apartment free and clear too.
How would people buy cars or would they be free? (Not everyone lives in a big city with mass transit.)
For #11: This means everyone with a mortgage would own their homes free and clear, right? How would renters feel about that when they need to pay rent, but mortgage holders don't have house payments? Also, the landlord now owns the apartment free and clear too.
How would people buy cars or would they be free? (Not everyone lives in a big city with mass transit.)
Lloyd J Hart's list of demands is too long and too fringe - Pluto fringe! Try the 10 point list written by professionals at www.citizenamerica.org if you want to win Americans to the cause and get the support you need to win back your country and future--the American Dream is lost if you don't get your act together!
Lloyd, Dude! Hey man, this sounds really great man especially demand 11. We can all sit back and puff on those dubies while the suckers work, dig it? No more worries no more cares just you and your sex partner. WOW man, far out. I want to go to the moon man and have wall street pay for it.
So I'm a little curious about some of these demands. One, what if I choose to work for less than the proposed $20/hr minimum wage? Will I be free to do so, to enter into a contract to work for whatever wage I deem acceptable? Also, as it relates to demand thirteen, would I be able to work in the industry of my choice without joining a labor union or would that be denied me? Would "right to work" laws be nullified?
I demand that only children born to US citizens can be US citizens. I demand that a child born in the US to one US citizen is a dual citizen combined of the parents nationalities, but not a natural born citizen.
I demand that a child born in the US to two US citizens is a natural born citizen. I demand that a child born in the US is nationality of the father. I demand that a child born in the US to parents who are not US citizens is the combined nationalities of the parents.
So if i was a minimum wage employee who stocked shelves at the local Walmart and decided that, although i could only afford a condo, i decided to buy a million dollar mansion, all my debt should be forgiven? I get the million dollar mansion for free? Then everybody would go out and buy million dollar mansions because their mortgage debt would be zero'd out.
I think you need to re-think this one a bit.
You need a free education
Excuse me? You are saying that if a minimum wage worker went out and purchased a mansion he couldn't afford, that he should be able to keep this mansion for free. Please explain how you think that is fair to the worker who purchased a condo because that was what his income, and ability to re-pay his loan, allowed him to buy?
Suggested second demand is that if Congress can not collectively balance the budget, then in that year they are all thrown out and we elect a new set of reps that will work together and balance the budget; budget must also be balanced during war time or they will promote a perpetual war ... AND the new people who run must get 3% of the electorate's signatures to be on the ballots; no contributions for their campaigns are allowed. Campaigns funded by a government fund. Each candidate gets the same amount of money AND may the best ideas win!
What about ending the funding of the military bottomless pit.
Military spending will have to be cut deeply to institute a single payer healthcare system.
This is great! I love 3. and 9, particularly when taken together. This means anyone will be able to cross our borders and we will take care of them by providing them with a living wage, and they won't have to work. This will be a nice haven and a good break for those living in poverty in the rest of the world. It is unfair that we have bathrooms and stuff while they are so poor, so let them all come in and we can solve their poverty problems. I am feeling very generous!
Why don't we try free market capitalism. Hasn't been tried in over 100 years. #EndTheFed
Is this current? if its not current- take it down.
I have never read something rooted in so much idiocy in my entire life. I could comment on each demand and poke a hole in each and every demand giving facts as to the fallacies that each demand is based upon, however, that would be a colossal was of time and a total exercise in futility. The problem with the first demand is they have no elementary understanding of economics. At the passing of such a drastic minimum wage increase, everything else would follow suit. Example today a Wendy's spicy chicken combo meal is about $6.00 after this passes Wendy's would charge $18.00 for the exact same combo meal. All goods and service prices would be adjusted according to then new minimum wage and then all salaries would follow this basic 300% increase adjustment. Yes this includes the so called rich who now make $200,000 a year would then make $600,000 a year. Summation get off your lazy asses quit being a mooch and work. Disclaimer I know that the increase from $7.25, the current minimum wage, to $20.00 is not a 300% increase and is actually a 275.862% increase.
The first demand should be to end so-called globalist free-trade. Rather than tariffs; I suggest that if a US Company produces 100% of its goods in the US and provides a defined benefit program, etc; then there is ZERO Tax on that Company and if they import 100% of the goods, then the tax is 100%. Better still if 80% is produced here, then tax declines by .5% for every 1% increase above 80% so the least tax rate is 10% and for every percent below 80% that is US made a 1 % increase for each 1% out sourced. Thus, if 75% made in USA, then tax rate is 25%; 50% made in USA, then tax rate is 50% and so on.
You didn't read it right. Free trade is lowering of tariffs. Ending free trade is raising tariffs.
I think i did, you are saying to increase tariffs so that jobs will come back to the USA; if so I agree, what I am saying is another way to skin the cat. The more a company makes in the USA, the lower its tax rate; but if it imports all goods from foreign sources (like Nike Shoes which makes NOTHING in the USA) then tax, tax, tax them! Thanks for your reply.
Just being in the American market shouldn't earn a company a tax credit.
[Removed]
L.M.A.O.
Best provocateur all day!
The immediate demand should be Wall Street answering and justifying where The American Tax Dollars went on the bail out? As we speak, it looks like Wall Street is heading right back to where it was in 2008. So everything they demanded to steer us away from a complete, financial meltdown is becoming another failure. They owe explanations to The American People.
TARP was paid back
Wow, this list just totally deflated my hope for change. What you will get is anarchy because these demands are unrealistic, unrefined, lofty and over the top and will NEVER be taken seriously. I had hopes for this movement especially since the Coffee Party turned out to be just that, a bunch of intellectuals sitting in coffee shops talking about what should be done, no action. Well THAT's different, not.
What this lofty list will result in is that serious, educated, experienced and rational people will bail, by the hundreds, and fast. It was fun while it lasted...
While I support the sentiment of this movement and participate in the one here in Omaha, I cannot support this kind of socialist bullshit.
Free health care, free education, free money for not working, forcing the market to adopt something it does not want to adopt.
If this is how the Occupation is going to go, I'm gone.
I thought this was about fighting back against corporate control of government...not demanding free handouts and more government.
Don't listen to the trolls. 99% of us get it exactly. We want corporations to be put in their proper place, but that requires structural renovation of key economic and political institutions (literal and figurative) in America. Hence these specific demands were sorted out of the chaos. Don't worry, Occupants! We hear you!
For once, faithful representatives of the people are making demands and starting from a strong bargaining position. These positions are far less complex than most bills passed into law. If the media and lawmakers can't ... understand... plain... English, then maybe we should have it translated into "bull-headed punk" for them.
There has to be a lot of demands made; effective negotiation begins with asking for more than what's expected and then compromising. it's better to ask for more than to ask for less, you never know what you might actually get.
Give Gibson their wood back..........
Demand 1: Everyone should make a million dollars a minute whether they want to work or not. Demand 2: Except health care workers who are forced to work for free. Demand 3: Work if you want to, you're still getting paid. Demand 4: Also Except all college employees who must also work for free. Demand 5: We must all toss our cars and force the sun to supernova to provide out energy. Demand 6: Barf up cash for unions. Demand 7: Let's plow under all the work from demand 6 Demand 8: I would love that. It would mean an end to "Affirmative action" laws Demand 9: Super. So Israel can build in the West Bank again? Demand 10: So. American elections are not "Third world" enough? I'd settle for positive ID of all voters. Demand 11: LOL I guess you never loaned anyone money. Frakking Freeloader. Demand 12: Yeah that will drive interest rates to the maximum - as lenders have to assume everyone applying is HIGH RISK! Demand 13: Is this Card Check, or Right to Work?
Nothing here will create any jobs. It will shut down real estate, medicine, education, lending, and banking completely. If I were a doctor I'd retire before being forced to work for free.
How old are you? 5?
Demand that everyone has their own free Fender Stratocaster.......
and a 100 watt marshall amp to crank it through
I recommend "Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt. Implementing these demands would cause many of the poorest among us to starve. Also, they empower the privileged corporatist elite and the filthy politicians on their pay rolls.
Demand 14. Barack Obama is not constitutionally eligible and must resign.
Read these documents: Be a "relator" and tell your State Governor.Bring Obama down or sue the governor for misprision of felony. http://www.scribd.com/doc/64484945/Information-in-the-Nature-of-Quo-Warranto-AnyGOV-V4-1 http://www.scribd.com/doc/64263111/Glossary-V3
^ Wingnut Birthtard Alert!
Demand 13. Impose on persons of Mexican descent a provision of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, requiring them to declare whether they want to be a Mexican in Mexico or a US citizen in the USA.
So basically you want us to become socialists...ARE YOU HIGH?
So basically you want us to become socialists...ARE YOU HIGH?
Demand 12. Reduce foreign Aid by 10% or more.
So basically you want us to become socialists...ARE YOU HIGH?
Demand 11. Export clergy, laypeople, school teachers to teach abroad so we don't need to import illegal aliens and educate them here. Foreign governments can pay our teachers, provide housing, utilities, teaching materials.
Demand 10. Authorize wars if the nation is attacked. Require States to enforce federal immigration laws. Require States to require every political subdivision to arrest illegal aliens. Make it a federal crime to rent housing to illegal aliens. Require Sheriffs to sweep for illegal aliens.
They have been hijacked. Their cause has been Hijacked by the media. These demands were fabricated to make the movement look ridiculous.
Who ever was in charge of this has been Hijacked.
Or you are being lead by an idiot.
What is a 403? And why did my comment not print? This guy Lloyd is really from outer space. GWS Would you settle for 24 secs?
What is a 403? And why did my comment not print? This guy Lloyd is really from outer space. GWS
What is a 403? And why did my comment not print? This guy Lloyd is really from outer space. GWS
What is a 403? And why did my comment not print?
What is a 403? And why did my comment not print?
Lloyd, those "demands" are not only unreasonable, they are unconstitutional (unless you want to take it up with your State government), and they would add to the national debt and deficit. How do you propose 'we' pay for that? You do realize that the federal government gets it's money from 'we the people', right? The only money it gets otherwise is from "Debt"
Just one demand is necessary: OBEY THE CONSTITUTION. Everything else will fall into place when that happens.
What you refer to as freetrade is actually managed trade. Free trade does not involve the government.
With regards to demand two: "Institute a universal single payer healthcare system", first you would have to amend the U.S. Constitution, to effect such a system, otherwise it is unconstitutional. Additionally , a universal single payer system would increase the power of an already oppressive, Patriot-Act-governed Federal Government acting outside the confines of the U.S. Constitution.
Affordable education is more sensible than free education. How will colleges be able to pay for their instructors? Payment through the Federal Government would only further increase the power of an already all-too-powerful government. You're better off supporting the burgeoning home-schooling and alternative schools.
With regards to demand twelve, control of our own private data would make more sense. However, credit reports initially arise from transactions, exchanges between two parties. The resultant data is therefore common to both parties and not necessarily private.
As a libertarian, I would be comfortable with open borders.
Open borders would work only when there is no longer a social welfare system and would non-citizens vote legally in this case?
Good points.
Sever EVERY connection between Wall Street and Washington. Lobbyists, campaign donations, congressional market activity, EVERYTHING.
This should be the one overriding message of the Occupy team - get money out of politics.
Demand fourteen: My two front teeth for Christmas, uuuuhhh, oh-oh, I mean Winter Holiday.
Is anyone really taking these demands seriously? Good Lord. So basically, you want free education and a free ride for the rest of your life. And you want to eliminate fossil fuels and nuclear energy as well. Do you really think there is any sort of alternative energy source that can handle all the uses we have for it now? Good luck with that. As far as racial equality goes, please remind me who is in the White House? On second thought, no need for that. There's one demand here that I think is viable. I would like to see the computerized voting machines produce two copies of what each voter decided. One for the voter and one for the "ballot box" so to speak. A paper trail would not be a bad thing. As far as the rest of your demands go, please wake up and get a job and see what it is to accomplish something.
Hello OWS! I am with you 100% in that something needs to be done to end the stranglehold of corporations on the world and that changes in the American Government need to happen. Your heart is in the right place however, these demands are too many and too drastic in my opinion. I think the movement needs to start with small attainable goals, build a foundation. These demands are going to add weight to the already biased opinion that we only want a free ride. My suggestions are: End corporate personhood. End pork bills. Our President, Congress and Senate may only vote on a bill that not one single other thing is attatched to. This will help clear clutter and confusion. A public record of voting must be viewable online. This must happen in local governments as well. Thank-you protesters and organizers for all that you are doing. Much love!
Signatures needed by October 28, 2011 to reach goal of 5,000
Signatures 139 october 01 started Signatures 202 october 02 + 63 Signatures 353 october 03 + 151 Signatures 415 october 04 + 62
Launch a real, public, subpoena-empowered, criminal investigation of the events of Sept. 11, 2001 go now
http://wh.gov/4yp
It was great to speak with you Lloyd. As we discussed, please add to demand ten some form of "Elections need to be funded from public funds only, corporations must be outlawed from influencing our elections and our public servants. Without this, corporate fascism cannot be defeated."
That's a bunch of un-realistic horseshit. You sound like a whining 8-year old.
That's a bunch of un-realistic horseshit. You sound like a whining 8-year old.
[Removed]
[Removed]
@Guntotinsquaw
You had by far the best comments of anyone, although I do have a concern. What is the methane concentration of a unicorn fart, in parts per million, please?
@Guntotinsquaw
You had by far the best comments of anyone, although I do have a concern. What is the methane concentration of a unicorn fart, in parts per million, please?
Dear god. At first when I was linked this I thought it was on the main page. Dude I can see you mean well but most of those demands would do more harm than good. Not to mention that pretty much all of them will mean nothing if they actually come to pass, seeing as the Federal Reserve (your money) is still run by the private sector.
[Removed]
All lobbying should be done as open meetings.
Demand 7. Make it a national felony to display anarchistic symbols, red flags, red stars, Che Guevara, Mao, etc., subject to citizens arrest.
Demand 6. We are at war. Activate the unorganized militia for training. Teach families to home can foods. Make the USA a Shall-Carry nation where all adults shall carry a concealed 40 caliber firearm loaded with hollow point ammunition. Make illegal immigration a felony, authorizing citizens arrest of illegal aliens. Place a $20 bounty on illegal aliens.
Overturn Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission ruling allowing corporations to donate unlimited and anonymously to campaigns
Demand ten answers that with international standards.
Demand 5. Demolish all hydroelectric dams and free the rivers to run free a flood the towns.
This should be the first demand:
We need to start a Social Security Trust Fund. This is to replace the current Ponzi scheme that is in place. The young people today shouldn't have to work and pay for all the boomer's retirement knowing they will never get a benefit themselves.
Here's how you do it: The current employer part of the SS tax can go to the current retirees for whatever benefit it will buy them. Period. Good luck with it. The Employee part of the tax needs to get restored to the full amount (Obama reduced it in hope we would spend the money and create jobs). Then that employee part should go into a new Trust Fund for the young people to get benefits from in the future. No current retirees should be able to get any benefits from that Trust Fund. The people paying in will be guaranteed to receive whatever benefit that Trust can afford to give them. If you don't pay into the Trust, you get no benefit from it. Period. This means illegals, off the books workers, etc. Sorry.
Young People = <40
Not a perfect solution, but at least the Ponzi scheme ends here. We can work on more demands after we get this one settled.
ABMackle@optimum.net
Demand four. Provide free 2-years general education plus 4-years college education benefit to those who serve the US for 8-years active duty, in military, forestry or farm work. The 2-years general education benefit and 4-years college education benefit may run concurrent with service.
http://mises.org/daily/5746/Occupy-Wall-Street-A-Story-without-Heroes
I think that you would greatly benefit from reading this article and taking the time to understand its arguments.
Demand Two: Give everybody the book "A Village Doctor" and a first aid kit. Close all the snivel clinics. Export all the unemployed nurses to Third World countries. Require immigration status at the hospital and only give illegal aliens care at the ER, only if they are in an emergency. Stop ripping off taxpayers to give free medical to illegal aliens.
It Sounds Like you guys need leadership to narrow your focus down to the real Problems and filter all this BS out. When I first Heard of you guys I was like Wow this is finally happening! I was so proud, I was even thinking about flying over to NY from Washington State to join you guys. Especially after the Bridge protest, but after watching you guys live on your website and after hearing a few interviews in the Media that will actually air you guys. I think to my self "Where are the f@ckin smart people?!" are all this guys a bunch of mumbling idiots that font know what if F2ck they want!??? This is a great opportunity for all of us and I sit here both proud for the people that have the B@lls to stand up and go and risk getting arrested and sprayed with pepper spray and losing their jobs, at the same time I see it all collapsing in front of me because I see no wise people or intelligent people speaking and expressing your words to the world. You need someone like Ron Paul but a young version that knows common sense and can filter all this BS out so you don't look like idiots to people watching the news or reading this site.
I don't know who you are, Lloyd J. Hart, but you are acting like the Wall Street thugs against whom you protest. By censoring me, you are complicit with them. What's the problem? Do YOU not permit any challenge to your zany 49 points, which are even now being used to hammer this movement?
WHY are you deleting all my comments??????
Another original protest song to replace the one you deleted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCWv8ooYP2o
Is it because I strongly urged you to delete or at least disown this list of demands as being counter-productive?
I am publicizing this movement on my Facebook page, which has 5,000 fans and on my StumbleUpon page, which has 5,356 followers---so WHY are my comments being censored here?
Would the admins please tell me why you, apparently, deleted my two recent posts?
the post
"I am publicizing this movement on my Facebook page, which has 5,000 fans and on my StumbleUpon page, which has 5,356 followers---so WHY are my comments being censored here?"
And this one "Here's a link to an original protest song, a tad "Christian" but nevertheless applicable to this movement.
"When a light shines in darkness, the darkness has to end".
KEEP ON SHINING, Comrades!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_NiMe-MhhY"
Are those the posts you are talking about? because I see then right above and below this post.
Here's a link to an original protest song, a tad "Christian" but nevertheless applicable to this movement.
"When a light shines in darkness, the darkness has to end".
KEEP ON SHINING, Comrades!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_NiMe-MhhY
Idealism vs. Realism is what separates the liberal from the conservative.
There are folks from both sides that do not like what has happened on Wall Street in recent years.
But you need to be realistic or you are just a left wing or right wing nut job.
Immediate debt foregiveness across the board? That's just whacky...
Debt forgiveness has already begun. Bond holders of European debt are going to have to take a 50% haircut on the bonds they are holding. The head of Morgan Stanley' Asia investment desk has called for consumer debt forgiveness.
Yep, but you mentioned "immediate across the board" debt foregiveness. The citations you give above are for consumers or countries already in too much debt.
How about those with a sane amount of debt that they can handle? Foregive those too?
For example, I enjoy my home and I appreciate the bank giving me the money it lent me to buy the home. I am happy to pay the bank back at their agreed terms at the interest rate and principal repayment rate they gave me up front. If I wasn't happy I wouldn't have signed the promissory note and the trust deed and done the deal in the first place.
Furthermore, there are probably some schoolteachers and firemen out there who depend on my payments to pay their pensions as their pension funds invested in my home mortgage.
So why should this debt be foregiven? You said "immediate across the board" debt foregiveness.
You will turn an economy with the speed potential of a Ferrari into a broken down Yugo that only starts every once in a while.
If I get unemployed and can't make the payments any more then suddenly that becomes the investors problem (the teacher's and firemen's pension funds) and they have to eat a total loss on their principal investment?
Sounds really fair and equitable to me...
how in the world do demands 1 and 9 go together?
The living wage will generate so much economic activity that the demand for labor will skyrocket and we will need migrant labor to fill jobs.
Most of these demands are absolutely insane, completely without any knowledge of how products are created or how people live in a free world.
"Outlaw credit reporting agencies..."
I mean, come on.
If you can "demand" a minimum wage of 20 bucks an hour, why not a hundred? Why not a million?
It makes no sense>
Get wall street out of bed with the government which grants special privileges and corruption.
End the private banking cartel, the FEDERAL RESERVE.
And your far to reactionary to have a discussion with.
These are ridiclious demands. Sounds more to me as if college students and those who bought homes who signed contracts both for education and homes who did not have a gun pointed to their heads when they signed don't want to pay back their loans this is all this is about as well as the unions organizing you people are "useful idiots" they will use you then throw you away "useful idiots". Francis Fox Pivin you were all saying what she said copying her now come on that sounds childish "useful idiots". Pay your loans you signed for them or leave this country if you don't like it here I am sure Mexico will love to have you there.
These are ridiclious demands. Sounds more to me as if college students and those who bought homes who signed contracts both for education and homes who did not have a gun pointed to their heads when they signed don't want to pay back their loans this is all this is about as well as the unions organizing you people are "useful idiots" they will use you then throw you away "useful idiots". Francis Fox Pivin you were all saying what she said copying her now come on that sounds childish "useful idiots". Pay your loans you signed for them or leave this country if you don't like it here I am sure Mexico will love to have you there.
[Removed]
[Removed]
[Removed]
There is no need for Demand Four if Demand Three is met. This list is a joke, right? I'm all for Demand Eight. Most of the rest, but not all, was penned with too much gas.
Thank you for this list of sheer unadulterated lunacy. I needed a good laugh today.
With all the Dope smoking and Screwing that's going here..You should demand Free Herpes Medication an Amoxicillin for all the new cases of VD that this great crusade is generating.Add that to the List
These demands represent such profound economic ignorance that they have to have been written by someone who has attended college within the last 30 years.
JT
These demands represent such profound economic ignorance that they have to have been written by someone who has attended college within the last 30 years.
JT
I Demand the Golden Ticket to willy wonka's Candy Factory.....I Demand a New saddle for my Unicorn ....I Demand a New IPAD..
I want to add one. Free Nissan Leafs for everyone. That way nobody needs their fossil fuel cars and they can all rot in the back yard. You don't expect us to get off our collective behinds and walk somewhere, do you?
Every hear of 'stage one thinking'? This is a brilliant example.
Why do you care about a living wage when the government is going to have to confiscate it to pay for the rest of your demands?
Also, if you forgive all debt, you won't need to care about your credit agency demand. There won't be any credit to give. Who would take the risk? So, we'll have an all cash economy. We won't need the fed anyway, since they largely control policy with interest rates, which is moot in an all cash world. Is bartering with Gold okay with you, Lloyd? Because that's all there will be left.
I like the guaranteed living wage, regardless of employment. "I'm an artist, where's my check?" Why do you care about 'so many jobs' if you have a guaranteed living wage, regardless of employment. Who's going to work?
Honestly, you're such simpletons, and our future is in your hands!
Your an economic neophyte my friend. with debt forgiveness everyone will have good credit so you don't need a credit rating agency
Wrong. With debt forgiveness, there will be no credit.
Credit is based on contract law, where a person takes their profits, lends them to someone else at interest, under the guarantee of repayment and interest.
Break that contract (which would be both immoral and illegal) and the person with profit will no longer be willing to lend their profit.
This was demonstrated repeatedly in Latin America, and the fall out from this immoral act was to drive many of those countries into poverty, and then keep them there until some measure of faith in their morality could be re-established.
As another note, if media gets wind of these demands, it will not bode well for the cause.
I'm part of this movement but do not agree with this list of demands. This is not how we get things done. So when people say something that refers to this particular list I tell them I don't fight for a list, I fight for people.
TAKE THIS DOWN!!!!
Stop with these demands, it undermines everything we are working for!!!!!!
You are giving the other side all the ammo they need to take us down.
That last line is the funniest thing I have read in a week
The OccupyWallStreet Gnomes Plan
The OccupyWallStreet Gnomes Plan
When do you think these morons are going to realize no one (i.e. Barry the Clown) is going to change a thing. Barry will soon become annoyed by the distraction and criticism will start. John Avalon from Salon, a reliably liberal blog, was on CNN Int'l telling the world how irrelevant OWS protesters are because they're all lefties with typical left wing complaints no one cares about since their side is in the Oval Office. Essentially, Barry's got their vote no matter what. The look on Michael Holmes' face was priceless!!! haha I wonder when the irony of their only hope being the same guy who bailed out the banks will sink in and crush their pinko dreams.....lol
This comment is counter-productive and does not serve the cause whatsoever. It should either be removed from the site, or the site's administrator's need to make clear that this is not the official view of the site but represents the opinion of only one person. Already, I have seen sites using this info/post to discredit the entire movement. Please pull it down.
It's too late! It's (you guys) are already a freak show. I love the demands. Why dont you just sum everything up. Just say "We demand Everything for Free!!"
It's too late! It's (you guys) are already a freak show. I love the demands. Why dont you just sum everything up. Just say "We demand Everything for Free!!"
As long as we hire Unicorns to build all the infrastructure, these demands can easily be met.
Demand four: Free college education.
So you want the right to steal the property of other people, correct?
"Demand four: Free college education."
So you want the right to steal the property of other people, correct?
Utter ridiculousness!
You will make yourself the object of derision and be even further from any realistic goal.
Look at your fiat currency and then the ideas of social credit to allow you to achieve many of these objectives without having this countrywide alienating shopping list of 'demands'. Put an action plan together to end the debt based financial system and you can create more freedom not bigger government! Your demands are not possible without a massive expansion of government to fulfil on these requirements and if you think increasing the money you spend on 'the man' is the answer then there is no hope and you are a dead end full of sound and fury and signifying nothing.
These are stupid. You're stupid. Way to discredit the movement, homeboy. How much pot did you smoke before you sketched this all down?
I see you've already started the censorship in this "democratic, grassroots" effort. Laughable!
Lloyd, weren't you the smart one from dumb and dumber? The one who didn't wear gloves in the Rockies?
You guys don't realize it, but you're your own worst enemies.
Please take this down MR Lloyd J Hart, I don't know if you are just a little overly exuberant and idealistic or working for Fox. Either way it's hurting the movement being here by magnifying one persons opinion. Talk with your peers brother.
Please take this down MR Lloyd J Hart, I don't know if you are just a little overly exuberant and idealistic or working for Fox. Either way it's hurting the movement being here by magnifying one persons opinion. Talk with your peers brother.
Google my name and you will find my writing on the indymedia network and read other lefty sites and you will discover that I don't work for faux news and that there are millions of people that agree with me on many issues.
LOL, dude seriously - you haven't the foggiest idea what kind of catastrophic impact we'd see in the economy if your kindergarten mentality demands were enacted, do you?
[Removed]
Geez, I thought you guys actually were standing up for something, these lists of demands are the stupid delusions of someone who has no idea. I like your spirit, but find some substance first. Enthuisiasm without substance doesn't end well, coerce someone to buy you a history book.
Please take this down MR Lloyd J Hart, I don't know if you are just a little overly exuberant and idealistic or working for Fox. Either way it's hurting the movement being up here by magnifying one persons opinion which is now being targeted for ridicule by such networks via Twitter etc. If there is one place we should know how to win at, it's the internet. Talk with your peers brother. Love.
These lists of demands are being called "The Demands of OWS" on this website. I saw a "friend" post a link on his FB. I have left a comment there (which is currently being moderated), will you do the same. http://nation.foxnews.com/occupy-wall-street/2011/10/03/read-demands-occupy-wall-stand-try-not-laugh#
Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment. Are you that ignorant or that lazy. Get a job and you'll get paid. And where is the money going to come from, the rich? Why would they want to work or create jobs if idiots like you are going to get paid for sitting on your asses?
[Removed]
[Removed]
[Removed]
[Removed]
[Removed]
[Removed]
[Removed]
[Removed]
[Removed]
[Removed]
[Removed]
[Removed]
Please take this down MR Lloyd J Hart, I don't know if you are just a little overly exuberant and idealistic or working for Fox. Either way it's hurting the movement being up here by magnifying one persons opinion which is now being targeted for ridicule by such networks via Twitter etc. If there is one place we should know how to win at, it's the internet. Talk with your peers brother. Love.
why is comment gone?
you got to be kidding me...... how about the letter Q stricken from the alphabet
you got to be kidding me...... how about the letter Q stricken from the alphabet
All in all, this wish list is a terrible recipe for moving far down the road toward socialism. On the way to achieving these goals, totalitarian controls on the population would be necessary. Some of these demands are merely horrible ideas that would injure the economy severely — such as the huge expansion of public infrastructure. But others are so fancifully utopian — such as a living wage guaranteed to all, especially when combined with free immigration — that their attempted implementation would confront the many disasters and horrors we have seen in every nation that has seriously attempted socialism. Such policies would vastly expand the government, including its manifestations in the corporate state and police power that these protesters find so unsavory. All of the corruption and brutality they think they oppose are symptoms of the same essential political ideology they favor. Full article: http://mises.org/daily/5746
Demand 14: Ensure that all citizens have access to only the freshest of organic, fair-trade and free-range food. All coffee orders must adhere to complicated, stringent and pretentious requirements. Must display an appropriate modicum of financial restraint as well as contempt for the man while actually being white and privileged.
Demand 14: Ensure that all citizens have access to only the freshest of organic, fair-trade and free-range food. All coffee orders must adhere to complicated, stringent and pretentious requirements. Must display an appropriate modicum of financial restraint as well as contempt for the man while actually being white and privileged.
Demand 14: Ensure that all citizens have access to only the freshest of organic, fair-trade and free-range food. All coffee orders must adhere to complicated, stringent and pretentious requirements. Must display an appropriate modicum of financial restraint as well as contempt for the man while actually being white and privileged.
Demand 14: Ensure that all citizens have access to only the freshest of organic, fair-trade and free-range food. All coffee orders must adhere to complicated, stringent and pretentious requirements. Must display an appropriate modicum of financial restraint as well as contempt for the man while actually being white and privileged.
Demand 14: Ensure that all citizens have access to only the freshest of organic, fair-trade and free-range food. All coffee orders must adhere to complicated, stringent and pretentious requirements. Must display an appropriate modicum of financial restraint as well as contempt for the man while actually being white and privileged.
OR!
You commie freaks could just get on a boat and all move to Cuba. What your asking for sounds a lot like what they promise except for the open borders. And leave America for Americans as our founding fathers intended. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Not a guaranteed right or entitlement to happiness.
Why not demand a list whereupon the whole bottom 99% can agree upon?
Or like Dennis Kucinich said it: "It is not about left or right. It is about right or wrong. It is about up (1%) or down (99%)."
First we have to take back democracy and accountability. I think if we want to slaughter the corporate beast ALL 99% should converge and focus on a couple of simple, but important, issues. The left and right paradigm is now not helpful in finding ways out of this mess. And most importantly it divides us and does not break the back of the corrupted camel.
Ralph Nader suggested the following list of four demands, whereupon a coalition can be based upon:
1) Bring our troops home. 2) Repeal of the patriot act. (and restore descent elections) 3) No deficit spending for reckless adventurism by the government 4) Restore the monetary powers to congress (end or audit the FED )
The video can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLdcB0ln9t8
It also features the last sincere and honest politicians on Capitol Hill: Dennis Kucinich (D Ohio) and Ron Paul (R Texas). They have been friends for decades, and cooperate politically against the corrupted establishment, despite they are diametrically positioned in the left-right paradigm.
Their friendship should be an example for us! United we stand!
For the ones who want to be inspired by their friendship, see: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kucinich+and+paul&aq=f
Personally I think the following issues are also important to address or interesting to consider:
5) Accountability and prosecution of the crimes on Wall street and Washington DC 6) Disentanglement of big business and campain contributions 7) Blockade the revolving doors between the regulatory bodies and big business 8) Find a way to discourage lobbying, perhaps through taxing 9) National Investment program in Green energy, Education and infrastructure (instead of wars, bail outs and socialism for the rich)
I suggest to get Nader, Kucinich & Paul to New York and form a coalition of the bottom 99%. As now the media attention rises, also the scrutiny on your message increases. Pick a clear and bold goal!
We rename it "Youth Movement". The problem we are facing is much bigger than just Wall Street. We have to stand up for the Future Generations and let the Youth's voice be heard on issues such as Taxes,Politics, Lobbyist, Jobs, Education, Healthcare, Wars, etc...
Hmmmm....hate to say it but seems my post was deleted....come on guys, really?
we need to take John Robb's 'Open Source Protest' to heart! all that needs to matter is that everyone that comes down dislikes/hates Wall Street, we know there are further machinations, but Wall Street is the massive SYMBOL of corruption and EVERYONE KNOWS IT. keeping it simple will go a long way to propel the movement!
Communism doesn't work just as monopolistic capitalism doesn't work, they are centralized systems. Decentralization is the future of the human race!
love from Occupied Houston!
John Robb - Occupy Wall Street - The Theory http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-the-theory.html
occupyhouston.org
is this a real list? .. haha silly fucking liberals
we need to take John Robb's 'Open Source Protest' to heart! all that needs to matter is that everyone that comes down dislikes/hates Wall Street, we know there are further machinations, but Wall Street is the massive SYMBOL of corruption and EVERYONE KNOWS IT. keeping it simple will go a long way to propel the movement!
love from Occupied Houston!
John Robb - Occupy Wall Street - The Theory http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-the-theory.html
occupyhouston.org
Demand number one is hilarious. That would just lead to price inflation, which is even more disastrous to the poor than regressive taxation or entitlement curbs.
Increasing tariffs would just lead to higher food prices. Remember: only poor people are hurt by high food prices. People in my income bracket do not really care if the price of milk doubles. Poor people, on the other hand, are seriously hurt from even a marginal price increase.
haha its like a medley of communism and stupid
You guys are really funny. thanks. lets hear some more good ideas.
Now lets look at demand 11 and demand 13. Interesting that there are only 13 demands here and one would presume they are the 13 most important demands to be made and therefore relatively equal in their importance. Demand 11 abolishes all agreement by all parties who entered into an exchange of goods or services for the promise to pay at a later date. ALL SUCH AGREEMENTS ACROSS THE GLOBE, basically throwing the global economic system into the abyss. Demand 13, on the other hand asks for the simple right to vote in favor or against union representation. Yeah, these are roughly equal ideas in this manifesto of bullshit.
You right wingers are always selling crisis. If you forgive all debt the economy will accelerate with productivity.
No one said abolish the use of credit. If you wipe out all debt everyone will have mortgage free homes and debt free businesses and can then borrow again to create business investment. An asset rich debt free economy can start over investing in innovation and ecological restoration.
either that or nobody would lend to anybody anymore.
1) Separate money and banking from the state, 2), Restore the freedom of the employment contract, 3) End the security-industrial-congressional complex, 4) End the welfare and entitlement state, 5) End the employer payroll tax, 6) End the corporate tax, 7) Open the borders, 8) Repudiate the government debt, 9) End the war on vices, 10) End all trade barriers, 11) Open federal land to homesteading, 12) End intellectual monopoly grants, and 13) Prohibit government borrowing.
Not necessarily in that order and it is just a start.
Libertarian orthodoxy will not work and never get the trust of the majority of the American people.
But, repudiating ALL debt will? Who would ever dare lend money again? This is completely insane.
The lenders will lend because they will be able to borrow from the discount window at the Federal Reserve Bank and because the market will be so big that they won't be able to resist the exploding lending market as because it will be an equity rich market.
What we are experiencing now is almost a third of Americans not being able to qualify for credit and so lenders are not lending and as a result the market is contracting.
Even Morgan Stanley has proposed consumer debt forgiveness.
[Removed]
[Removed]
[Removed]
As a lifelong republican I feel this occupation will give america back to its rightful owners. We need to kick these whiney liberal millionairs like Warren Buffet out of their fancy offices and take over! Thankyou my brothers for doing such a great job!
[Removed]
So, this is not a free speech forum. If you do not like it, you take it out. Cannot wait until you have the power. Are you going to crush those who disagree?
fox news is honing in on this thread. what is this? someone posting outrageous stuff on here so they can have a target. a cyber agent provocateur of sorts? should this be addressed?
1) One trillion dollars in debt paid down each year 2) Reduce the size of the federal government and all programs by 20% 3) Use military to secure borders 4) Outlaw student loans 5) Re institute the draft 6) Abolish labor unions 7) Must own property, be 35 years of age, military service and prove that you have held a job for 10 years to be eligible to vote 8) Outlaw social security 9) Outlaw medicare/medicade 10) Flat Tax 11) Balance Budget amendment 12) Domestic Fossil Fuel improvement plan, drill on any federal land and any US offshore waters 13) Remove the minimum wage, let the free market decide pay 14) Pass US concealed hand gun law 15) Trade schools for bad students
And this is why the majority of Americans reject your ideas regardless of how many elections you steal with your electronic Jim Crow voting machines
Not to go to the well or anything, but why not boil it down a bit, go with something that's sold before:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
These demands are too numerous and too ridiculous in many cases. There should be three simple demands: 1) Campaign Finance Reform.
2) End the FED. 3) Pay the American public an equal amount that's been paid in the various bailouts. 11 Trillion dollars split across 312 million people would be a check for $35,000 dollars a piece.
Better to do debt forgiveness which will release more energy into the market.
On just 0's a balance for only those in debt, the other equally distributes wealth to all citizens of our nation, which they can then put into the economy in whatever form they decide. In either case, this list is the best one going right now: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/
hese are only "proposed" demands. They are obviously a great source of contention and should be removed from the site. People are getting really excited about the movement (we certainly are in Baltimore) and we don't want this enthusiasm crushed by idealistic, but mostly unobtainable demands that are creating so much divisiveness in the movement. This earlier list is more policy-focused and reasonable: http://coupmedia.org/occupywallstreet/occupy-wall-street-official-demands-2009
Yeah censorship, what a great idea.
I hope these demands get met. I would love to get a check mailed to me every month or week or whatever and not have to work like a slave for it! That would be fucking sweet as hell. FUCK the capitolist pigs and there DAMN banks. I propose $2000 a month for ALL people in this country including the UNDOCUMENTED CITIZENS. We will take the money from teh DIRTY BANKS and give it to those of us that are DESERVING!
EMR76 - I get what you are proposing. But I have suggestion for you and your fellow protestors just move to the socialists country of you choice. America gives you the opportunity to make anything of yourself you want. It seems you want to be a freeloader and get paid for nothing. This is just my observation of this whole forum. I, with no formal education, have worked in many fields and started a company which is providing my family a nice income. I have never asked for anything from anyone to support me or my family. This government owes you or I nothing but the OPPORTUNITY to succeed. If you can't succeed than you are thinking like a liberal. You with your college education should have some ideas for a business if not blame that on you professors. This comes from me one of the 99% ters.
People are naturally productive and can not sit around for very long before they get up to creating a small business with their guaranteed income.
[Removed]
Is Lloyd a Wall St shill?
Just put up a great long list of fragmented "demands" and see whatever "movement" there might be brought to a shuddering, bickering halt over a mass of micro-detail.
Learn about influencing change, Lloyd ... it's obvious that you could not change a diaper.
Noble goals, but unattainable and off-putting. I agree there needs to be focus.
There is a lot of justifiable anger about the money that was given to Wall Street and the banking industry. That money needs to be repaid by those institutions now that the crisis is over, with interest.
How about a constitutional amendment forbidding any future bailouts ever? Rewarding bad business makes no sense at all.
A social safety net is a must. Healthcare is a drag on employment and is why there are so few full time jobs. Single payer is a good demand and would ease that burden. Keep it.
What else can we do to encourage businesses to return to hiring full time? Something needs to be done, but I don't know what. Would love to hear suggestions.
College for all at a minimal cost is good. When I was in CA in the late 80s community college was $50 a semester plus books. College education should be supported and encouraged. We don't need to import scholars or doctors. Make education affordable again.
End for-profit prisons and property seizures by law enforcement. Repeal the domestic aspects of the Patriot Act.
Repeal the Bush Tax cuts completely across the board. Roll back taxes to Reagan or Clinton levels and look at tax reform from there.
You're fighting the good fight but need to pick your battles. Pick the popular ones that majority already support but that the moneyed interests champion.
TARP was paid back. Check the facts. The US gov't might even make a tidy profit!
What are you talking about Europe has attained most of these goals
Hey Lloyd!
You forgot "boil the ocean"!
No. 11 is a Biblical Commandment from God.
Deuteronomy 15
You see....God isn't such a bad guy after all.
Or just chapter seven bankruptcy.
So demand 11 is chapter seven bankruptcy? Demand granted! Congrats!
"Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment."
"These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy."
In what ridiculous alternate universe do these two statements exist together? There is not a soul living in this nation that would choose to work if he/she would be paid the same exact wage to not work.
I also have yet to really grasp how forcing companies to pay more in payroll, create new technology/spend money that could otherwise go toward payroll on new technology, allowing greater competition for jobs with both free immigration and free education making non-labor jobs very difficult to procure, and generally eradicating several of the largest industries in the nation (employee wise), while growing government and attempting to spend money we do not have on projects that we do not need and that are inherently profitless undertakings would create new jobs.
Perhaps someone could explain this to me. Is it kind of like the New Deal? If so, I'll guess none of you really read your history books. The New Deal bombed. Put people back to work, sure, but also ran our country into the ground. If it wasn't for WWII (oh! surprise, surprise! a war created jobs and stimulated the economy), the US would have entirely collapsed on itself.
Anyway, someone explain to me how this paradox is some how actually common sense....
Or maybe you're all waiting for this free college demand to be met so that you can understand all the stuff you've been babbling.
Never been to Europe huh?
How's that Europe thing working out these days?
Check out this article http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/youre-creating-a-vision-of-the-sort-of-society-you-want-to-have-in-miniature/2011/08/25/gIQAXVg7HL_blog.html
Wow, those demands. Are you all twelve again? The amount of money required to meet these demands would make things worse. Why dont you do something like push solar power instead of burning coal or you know. Take out a corporation that has controlled america for who knows how long. Of course im talking about the oil and automotive industry. Push for and demand hydrogen powered cars that use no gas and have the capacity to allow someone to travel from new york to florida on a full tank. That will shut down oil corporations and the war in the middle east will feel useless. It will be a domino effect of dieing corporations, less war and more freedom for the american people. Of course, you still have to do things like raise minimum wage. Not to 20$ though, 10-15$ seems like a fair amount. You have to set small goals that affect the long term in a possitive way. Not goals that will butcher your dollar and economy even more. An open border would just cause more problems but I do agree on the free college thing, on one condition. Retards stop taking art majors. They are useless, any idiot with a computer and adobe or photoshop can piece together some digital art and painters are really out dated and unneeded.
I don't see how a monetary system works with these demands.
So Donald Trump will have all his debt forgiven and all the people who have been living within their means will lose out on all the free stuff?
If you really want all this, you'll need to nationalize everything and outlaw money.
Funny how that works. The people with the most cash are granted the biggest loans. They would love to see that demand met.
In my opinion loyds a Marxist, can anyone say MaCarthyism?
It would be cheaper to make the Venus Project a reality & you'd get more out of it.
just saying......
Do you people even understand the concept of money? If they just make enough to do all of this, inflation will be unbelievable. Where are these trillions of dollars going to come from? How will companies all be able to afford $20/hr wages? It sounds like this movement wants to abolish the idea of currency in general and just make everything free for everyone ever. This cannot possibly work.
Oh, you pessimist. What harm will forcing banks to forgive all debts do? Sure, the burden on the people who actually have money will destroy what's left of our national solvency, but ... Okay, someone help me out here. How does this help us?
I agree.
From the immigrant who came to US from USSR:
Take this sincere FUCK YOU, COMMIE IDIOT. American people won't allow the nutcases like you turn the greatest country on Earth into USSR. Hopefully NYPD will go medieval on your stupid asses
I will wash your feet for that excellent rejoinder. I was always impressed with how Ayn Rand (and millions of first gen immigrants) had a much better understanding of the greatness of our system and country, than the elites that had lived here for generations. I'm second generation, from Cuba, but still so appreciative of how well our system works. It ain't perfect, and some heads need to get busted over the mortgage meltdown, and we need our govt to learn to spend less than it makes, like we all do, but it's still the best out there.
And a hearty "welcome" from a real American to you, my friend. Thanks for coming here, and thanks in advance for helping us educate the nitwit domestic commies.
I'm a small business owner and employ 4 people, at or slightly above minimum wage. You raise minimum wage to $20 an hour and you put my four employees out of a job and me out of a job and unemployed as well.
Who do you propose will guarantee that $20 wage regardless of employment since you just nixed one of the largest revenue city/county/state/federal revenue streams with your delusional demands? The small businesses around the country you just destroyed certainly can't and since you hamstrung local and state governments by killing their revenue streams, they're out of the question.
Since you're not satisfied with destroying small businesses, increasing unemployment by staggering amounts, and solidifying large corporations' market share by elimiating their competition from below, perhaps you can explain how you will fund the massive entitlements you wish to enact? Remember, you wiped out a huge revenue stream not just in corporate and personal income taxes, but you also severely handicapped social security taxes and unemployment taxes. You didn't just do this by wiping out small businesses and paving the way for the mega corporations to get even bigger, you also increased unemployment by hundreds of thousands with your whim of banning private insurers. They can't stay in business now and keep their people employed.
I honestly couldn't get past your third demand because you and anyone who is helping you with this have little more than a child's understanding of these concepts and a child's affectation for making demands. I can see your last line however, and it's clear that you are not to be taken seriously.
You do not represent 99% of anything.
Don't be afraid of change. Perhaps you need a little reeducation.
Well said.
So you can only make a go of it paying slave wages? You have no problem with the taxpayer paying for their food stamps it would appear. Go out of business you exploitive piece of shit.
Small businessmen just dream of being big businessmen and disingenously try to distinguish themselves. Your capital should be seized and given to your employees. Perhaps they can start a co-op doing the same tasks they were doing realizing the profit for themselves.
Okay, if you're serious, you are a moron. If you're not serious, I apologize.
On the chance that you are serious, how in the world is GMay paying slave wages when he says flat out that he pays his employees at or slightly above minimum wage? What? Is anything below $20/hour a slave wage, or something? News flash, If the minimum wage were to increase to $20/hour, businesses would hire fewer people and fire others. Those businesses that don't fire people will increase their prices to unheard of levels to cover the unrealistic wage costs. A gallon of milk, which currently costs a couple dollars, will all of a sudden cost between $10 and $20. Gas will jump from about $4 a gallon to about $15 a gallon. Such a minimum wage will lead to hyper inflation and massive poverty never seen before. The unemployment rate will likely reach 20% to 30% easily and most of the country will be living on the streets. But sure, give us that $20/hour minimum wage, why don't you. That will destroy this country within a generation, if we're lucky.
Added on top of that, if it were to continue in such a way, which it inevitably would because the problems will just compound on top of each other, a gallon of milk would eventually cost upward of $50 and even $100. Yes, let's start to enforce these demands. If you think the poverty level is bad now, you ain't seen nothin' yet. At least 3/4 of this country would be in poverty and living on the streets if these demands were enforced. What then? Government sanctioned population control to clean up the streets? Let's get real, please. These demands won't even work in a fantasy world, let alone reality.
Hourly wage costs are only a small portion of the commodity's value. Far more value is added through distribution costs, most of which are disproportionately distributed above the proposed $20 wage. I'll use your your example a gallon of milk to explain. Last I've checked, farmers are paid 2 or so odd cents per processed liter-- quantity of milk, not quantity of time (this 2 cents really caused a rumpus among the farmers, actually). Raising their wages to a flat rate of $20 would probably decrease the cost of milk by a negligible amount-- they'd produce hundreds of gallons of milk a day at the same rate of $20 an hour. Lets say the farmer works 8 hours a day. He would be paid $160 for at least 5000 (this is a very low estimate if we consider how industrial farming works) gallons of milk. That is .032 cents per gallon.
Most milk costs actually come from storage, packaging, and transportation. These costs occur on the distribution side of things, of which is compensated at a higher wage than the proposed $20 (again, due to quantity, not time).
So I'm afraid I must conclude...you're pulling numbers out of your ass. D:
But let's assume your premise was true. If prices went up in accordance to wages, as you predict, there would be neither a decrease nor increase in poverty. Why? Production would completely balance out the price of the commodity, so everyone could afford to buy that gallon of milk. This is a moot point to make, though. You based your analysis on the premise that production value proportionately factors into a commodity's value-price, which is incredibly misinformed.
CPI (the average price for a basket of goods) has been increasing steadily while house wages have remained stagnant. CPI under-represents inflation, which means a minimum wage doesn't really represent the minimal amount to live. So production, when it does occur as a hourly wage, would not reflect as a $10 jump in cost. In fact, regardless of whether wages were increased or decreased, food prices would still go up due to global trends in food speculation and increased distribution costs. I'm confused as to why you confined the commodity's value to the US production. Speculation and global trends play a large role in determining food price.
Now, I don't agree with the wage demand primarily because of this reason: global speculation of production is the problem. This is what causes a high spike in the price of goods. Not wages alone.
As for your claim that corporations do not pay wage slaves, you again neglect to mention global trade. Most corporations go overseas precisely to hire at a "slave wage." Still, a corporation can legally claim that he pays a living wage because the manufacturing done overseas is often under a subsidiary company or contract. Your claim about gas prices is equally as preposterous, considering that its value is mostly derived from artificial inflation. This inflation comes about through trading oil-backed securities, which has absolutely nothing to do with anyone being paid minimum wage.
I understand that you want demands to be "realistic". I actually agree that these demands are senseless in some aspects. But you hardly understand what you're criticizing.
I for one would like to thank you for striving to make a living and in the process providing jobs for others.
Leftists don’t have a clue in how the economy runs, they think they can just demand manna from heaven and it will spring forth as if by magic.
The want target the top 1% for destruction – well guess what happens when they are even halfway successful at this – the top 1% will disappear.
So they will have to target the top 5%…… then the top 10%… then -well you get the picture.
So enough the will be targeting you – my advice: Buy a gun or guns and BLOAT!
And just who do you think is going to pay for all of this?
The bankers! Confiscate the wealth they have stolen from student loans!
Stolen? Can you prove that a banker, any banker, has violated the law?
In what way did they steal, and from whom?
Well, no one forced you to go to college. The reason we are in this mess is because it's beaten into your head from day 1 that you have to go to college. But what happens when more people get a college degree for a job market that cant handle that many applicants? You get high unemployment from that generation. Who cannot pay back the loans they needed for the school they were told they needed in order to get a job. Instead of blaming the banks and others, take a step back and look at the real reason. You were lied to growing up that you needed college.
Pay, what do you mean? Isn't demanding it enough?
The entire movement smacks of a "faith, and faith alone" religious movement.
Magical thinking (we'll just pull a trillion dollars out of mid-air to fix the environment!) and blind dogmatism (Big Corporations are evil, but Big Labor is good!).
So, yeah, for a blindly dogmatic person, demands are enough. Sadly Reason, the golden child of Western Philosophy, has left the building.
Enter the parade of unicorns pulling sleighs laden with gold.
How about free flights to the moon for all you MOONBATS !
I went crazy once, but it was a short trip. A trip to the Moon would be longer.
This will never happen some of these are just unrealistic you need a common ground and realist wants debt, money and fossil fuel request will never happen you need demands for the well being of the economy and this in turn will take care of the people but this is a good brain storm
I agree with demand #10 and would argue that this is the most important to regaining our freedoms as individuals.
In demands we trust.
Observe them all or perish.
You have his number.
To: Admin note: This is not an official list of demands..........If not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus......then WHY is it still posted on OccupyWallSt.org???? Obviously there must be some consensus?? Stop your wining, crying, and get a life little man.
To: Admin note: This is not an official list of demands..........If not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus......then WHY is it still posted on OccupyWallSt.org???? Obviously there must be some consensus?? Stop your wining, crying, and get a life little man.
OK I am sorry, but I just have to say these demands are very funny to read...in fact we asked our 6 1/2 old some questions from this list.
The first question we asked was if you were paid $5.00 an hour to make milk, and someone said the company has to pay you $10.00 and hour to make the milk, what do you think the will happen to the price of milk in the store...he says it would go up. Which is what would happen if minium wage was increased(and 20.00 is ridiculous) the cost of EVERYTHING would increase therefore the rais would be fruitless.
The second question we asked was if mommy borrowed $10.00 from your allowance(he CAN EARN up to 12.00 a week for doing various chores ranging from .10-.50 per chore, if he does not do a chore he does NOT get paid) do you think mommy should have to pay it back, he says yes because he worked hard for that money. He then said if you do not pay it back it is stealing!!! and you can go to jail for that. If all debt was forgiven then we would just condone the largest theft in history, making Berni Madoff like a common pick pocketed.
The third question we asked was do you think you should get paid just because...even if you do not work for it? He says NO WAY that is not right. Should we reward those who are not working when the are ABLE to by providing the ability to steal from others!!!
For the fourth question we asked we used the dinning room table as the USA and and a Phineas doll(from the Disney channel) as someone from mexico... any other country would suffice we just simplified the example for him . We then asked why he thinks we have gates at the edge of the country he says because we have to keep our home safe we then asked do you think we should let Phineas in just because he wants to come on to the table? He says no because we don't know if he wants to hurt our home and he might take it away. Since the start of civilization people have had to protect their communities, this has been done with guards, gates, and weapons. The reason for this is to ensure the outside population does not disrupt the day to day operations of the community though acts of violence and other means. On that note I am sure all of you Idiots lock your doors at night and scure you vehicles(as we do too) to protect you family and what property. This is the same concept with our borders.
The fifth questions we asked: Do you think we should pay the Dr. that fixed your head(he as rough housing with some other boys and busted open, the Dr. had to glue his skin back together)? He says yes because the Dr. worked for that money. We then asked do you think we should pay for it or someone else? He says, we should because he is the one that hurt his head. While yes I do think the $133.00 to put super glue on the back of his head is A LOT of money for this simple task, I also have to keep in mind what this man paid to go to school(and no I dont think college should be free), how much the building costs, how much the staff costs, and how much his mal-practice insurance costs.
We did not ask some of the more complicated questions due to the complexity of the demands.
Now please keep in mind we tell him he does not have to agree with us (he likes Obama, my husband cannot stand the mans political philosophy).
What I do not understand is the fact that a 6 year old can comprehend these basic fundamental absolutes. However, college educated, life experienced, and well versed adults still wrestle with these ideas. They are not complicated, but they are not as simple as you wish them to be. We cannot ignore the absolute truths of life by ignorantly replacing them with relative truths you want to be true. The other ideas you have placed forth do nothing to better lives, create jobs, or improve our current governmental problems. They only ignore the underlying symptom of our society, which is the refusal to admit that relativism is a farse. We need to look back upon accurate history and learn from it what did not work and what did work; these lessons show us the absolute truths of life.
These ideas have been tried and failed many times throughout history. However, our country started an experiment that rejected these ideas (they were proposed those many years ago as well) and our society worked well until the Federal Government began to take control.
Just read the demands. WOW!! This is comedy! They want the cake factories and to eat them too! We should build them a life simulator (much like they do with pilots in training) and hand them the reigns, let them get everything they want and see what happens. They'll probably redesign gravity and wonder why they're floating off into space....weee......
Demand suggestion: Cap and peg CEO pay to a suitable multiplier of the average wage with a strict bonus system based on company performance. Also cap severance package.
Demand suggestion: Increase taxes for the super rich, close tax loop holes and increase tax free threshold / low taxes for the poor (note many super rich people have recently pledged support for this).
Comment - Gap between rich and poor was a key driver for the recent UK riots and is a serious growing socioeconomic problem in most countries.
This makes no economic sense.
New Demands:
Free birth control for midgets, god has spoken on this, you must listen.
A new helicopter landing/transport service to be build and run atop of the Wall Street building so the workers do not have to smell the hippies out front protesting.
Disband the Enviormental Protection Agency to improve growth and prosperity acrosss the usa.
Allow fossile fuel companies to build new refineries in all 50 states, thus increased production in product means less demand and more saving for usa consumers.
All prisoners facing 30+ years in jail or more should be kindly euthanize and all usable organs and bodily parts be harvested and sold to medical facilities to help reduce costs to each states legal prison system.
To prevent illegal weapons and drugs from being imported into america, a well armed malitia will be placed at all borders and told to fire on all suspects attempting to enter the united states. To let all attempting to enter illegally see a sign of a snipper shooting a trespasser through the head while trying to climb over a fence. If they can't figure out that climbing over is death, then one less moron to worry about.
A large 30ft gold statue of Steve Jobs butt to be erected in CA so that anyone whinning about not being able to get a without a college degree can kiss it while reading craigslist when using their Iphone.Warning signs will be placed about kissing said butt in freezing or hot days about possible harm. Lip balm will not be provided and should be used.
Oil companies wishing to drill off of California coast may be allow to so as long as the oil is refined in CA and will supply for all cites automobile gasonline at $1 per gallon and 9.25% sales tax per gallon and diesel fuel at $1.25 per gallon and 9.25% tax per gallon. There will be a fueling station provided by said drilling company at 1 station per 10,000 populus with no less than 8 pumping units in each said station. Minimal of 2000 gas stations in the state and fuel restriction of no more than 50 gallons per person, per week allowed. Those persons not wishing to participate in the program or does not drive in california will be giving an unlimited bus/train pass for 2 weeks of free travel on said transportation.
Bacon will be reuired to be carried on all school menu's.
Criminals caught stealing non-food items will be arrested, made to wear pink, forced to watch the 'Life Time' channel for one hour per day, then put to hard labor for 10 hour day, every day for the full term of their incarnation. Those criminals that do not wish to be on work programs may donate their body to science and be kindy euthanize, then have their remains surrendered to a medical facility/corperation of their choice.
All persons leaving the united states to offer assistance in countries not friendly to the United States and their citizens do so at their own risk. Any person captured/arrested or detained at their own rist and will not be aided by by united states and will not be assisted for being a dumbazz and going to said country.
Any country supporting enemy terrorists and not taking measures to remove or elimiante said terrorsts will also be considered enemies of the United States and will no longer get aid and will be invaded via carpet bombing till said insurgents have all been eliminated.
all vehicles in the united states driven less than 10k miles per year will no longer be reuired to bi-annual smog tests.
All new production vehicles entering the United States will be required to pay the same amount of taxes that the same country would charge for a US car made and entering said country. Example: If their tax for a vehicle entering their country would be 200% of vehicle value, then the same would be for said country exporing cars to the United States. Vehicles parts would be charged 200% reguardless of make or models for entering the United States.
New Demands:
Free birth control for midgets, god has spoken on this, you must listen.
A new helicopter landing/transport service to be build and run atop of the Wall Street building so the workers do not have to smell the hippies out front protesting.
Disband the Enviormental Protection Agency to improve growth and prosperity acrosss the usa.
Allow fossile fuel companies to build new refineries in all 50 states, thus increased production in product means less demand and more saving for usa consumers.
All prisoners facing 30+ years in jail or more should be kindly euthanize and all usable organs and bodily parts be harvested and sold to medical facilities to help reduce costs to each states legal prison system.
To prevent illegal weapons and drugs from being imported into america, a well armed malitia will be placed at all borders and told to fire on all suspects attempting to enter the united states. To let all attempting to enter illegally see a sign of a snipper shooting a trespasser through the head while trying to climb over a fence. If they can't figure out that climbing over is death, then one less moron to worry about.
A large 30ft gold statue of Steve Jobs butt to be erected in CA so that anyone whinning about not being able to get a without a college degree can kiss it while reading craigslist when using their Iphone.Warning signs will be placed about kissing said butt in freezing or hot days about possible harm. Lip balm will not be provided and should be used.
Oil companies wishing to drill off of California coast may be allow to so as long as the oil is refined in CA and will supply for all cites automobile gasonline at $1 per gallon and 9.25% sales tax per gallon and diesel fuel at $1.25 per gallon and 9.25% tax per gallon. There will be a fueling station provided by said drilling company at 1 station per 10,000 populus with no less than 8 pumping units in each said station. Minimal of 2000 gas stations in the state and fuel restriction of no more than 50 gallons per person, per week allowed. Those persons not wishing to participate in the program or does not drive in california will be giving an unlimited bus/train pass for 2 weeks of free travel on said transportation.
Bacon will be reuired to be carried on all school menu's.
Criminals caught stealing non-food items will be arrested, made to wear pink, forced to watch the 'Life Time' channel for one hour per day, then put to hard labor for 10 hour day, every day for the full term of their incarnation. Those criminals that do not wish to be on work programs may donate their body to science and be kindy euthanize, then have their remains surrendered to a medical facility/corperation of their choice.
All persons leaving the united states to offer assistance in countries not friendly to the United States and their citizens do so at their own risk. Any person captured/arrested or detained at their own rist and will not be aided by by united states and will not be assisted for being a dumbazz and going to said country.
Any country supporting enemy terrorists and not taking measures to remove or elimiante said terrorsts will also be considered enemies of the United States and will no longer get aid and will be invaded via carpet bombing till said insurgents have all been eliminated.
all vehicles in the united states driven less than 10k miles per year will no longer be reuired to bi-annual smog tests.
All new production vehicles entering the United States will be required to pay the same amount of taxes that the same country would charge for a US car made and entering said country. Example: If their tax for a vehicle entering their country would be 200% of vehicle value, then the same would be for said country exporing cars to the United States. Vehicles parts would be charged 200% reguardless of make or models for entering the United States.
If these are not your demands then do not have them on your website
Other websites are linking to you saying this is what you want.
The fact that the people who posted these are college graduates is frightening. Free college? Immediate debt forgiveness? And worst of all, you expect trillions of dollars to flying out of someone's ass to spend on infrastructure and forests? If you want something, try not to sound like a bunch of spoiled brats. Grow up.
These are stupid. Demand 3: Some kinds of work are worth a higher wage than others. And some people work harder than others and deserve more pay. Sorry. Demand 4: Are you asking teachers to work for no pay? Are you asking taxpayers to foot yet another bill? Not gonna happen. Again: stupid. Demand 5: People have been working on this for decades and we still don’t have a solution because the alternatives are too expensive and not yet viable. Your silly demands are childish and won’t help us get there any faster. Demand 6: More spending will only bring us closer to bankruptcy (and collective poverty) faster. Demand 8: The U.S. does a better job of this than any other country in the world. Utopia? No. Is any place else better? I doubt it. Deal with it. Time to grow up and face the real world. Demand 9: This is nothing but a recipe for destroying the sovereign rights of citizens and nations. You won’t get any support for this from the vast majority of citizens. Non-starter. Demand 10: The international voting standards are a joke. Better to pursue reforms in our own country. Americans can always do better. Demands 11 and 12: This shows a basic dishonesty on the part of those who borrowed money in the first place. You borrowed the money and gave your word to pay it back. Now do it. Demand 13: What if someone doesn’t want to join a union? Unions are an out-of-date concept. They spend all their time and energy raising money and accumulating power for themselves now. They could care less about the rank-and-file anymore.
These demands are nothing more than boilerplate propaganda against basic American values and for international collectivism. Most people will be smart enough to see through this. The jobs these demands will supposedly create will all be mediocre jobs. But what do most people want: a chance to have a mediocre job that pays minimum wage and be like everyone else or a chance to achieve their dreams? That’s the great thing about America: it is the place where we can go for our dreams.
It’s a place where two kids can start a computer company in a garage (without government subsidies) that goes on to become one of the biggest companies in the world. It’s a place where a 50-something paper cup salesman can buy a hamburger stand and turn it into one of the largest hamburger chains in the world. It’s a place where a college dropout who’s obsessed with writing computer code can design a program that completely changes the computer industry and makes computers (PCs) affordable for consumers (and makes him a mega millionaire along the way). It’s a place where kids with nothing become sports and music and acting superstars by sheer dint of hard work and will. It’s a place where an immigrant can come with nothing and open a store or buy a cab and start a business and within a generation build something successful to pass on to his children. We read these kind of stories all the time. But this doesn’t happen to people sitting on their butts with their hands out. The people in these stories are people who are driven, passionate and working toward a goal. They are not people who feel sorry for themselves. They are people who are thankful to be alive and to be here. Maybe if you started counting your blessings for a change and stopped looking at life from a self-centered perspective you might be able to help yourselves.
These are stupid. Demand 3: Some kinds of work are worth a higher wage than others. And some people work harder than others and deserve more pay. Sorry. Demand 4: Are you asking teachers to work for no pay? Are you asking taxpayers to foot yet another bill? Not gonna happen. Again: stupid. Demand 5: People have been working on this for decades and we still don’t have a solution because the alternatives are too expensive and not yet viable. Your silly demands are childish and won’t help us get there any faster. Demand 6: More spending will only bring us closer to bankruptcy (and collective poverty) faster. Demand 8: The U.S. does a better job of this than any other country in the world. Utopia? No. Is any place else better? I doubt it. Deal with it. Time to grow up and face the real world. Demand 9: This is nothing but a recipe for destroying the sovereign rights of citizens and nations. You won’t get any support for this from the vast majority of citizens. Non-starter. Demand 10: The international voting standards are a joke. Better to pursue reforms in our own country. Americans can always do better. Demands 11 and 12: This shows a basic dishonesty on the part of those who borrowed money in the first place. You borrowed the money and gave your word to pay it back. Now do it. Demand 13: What if someone doesn’t want to join a union? Unions are an out-of-date concept. They spend all their time and energy raising money and accumulating power for themselves now. They could care less about the rank-and-file anymore.
These demands are nothing more than boilerplate propaganda against basic American values and for international collectivism. Most people will be smart enough to see through this. The jobs these demands will supposedly create will all be mediocre jobs. But what do most people want: a chance to have a mediocre job that pays minimum wage and be like everyone else or a chance to achieve their dreams? That’s the great thing about America: it is the place where we can go for our dreams.
It’s a place where two kids can start a computer company in a garage (without government subsidies) that goes on to become one of the biggest companies in the world. It’s a place where a 50-something paper cup salesman can buy a hamburger stand and turn it into one of the largest hamburger chains in the world. It’s a place where a college dropout who’s obsessed with writing computer code can design a program that completely changes the computer industry and makes computers (PCs) affordable for consumers (and makes him a mega millionaire along the way). It’s a place where kids with nothing become sports and music and acting superstars by sheer dint of hard work and will. It’s a place where an immigrant can come with nothing and open a store or buy a cab and start a business and within a generation build something successful to pass on to his children. We read these kind of stories all the time. But this doesn’t happen to people sitting on their butts with their hands out. The people in these stories are people who are driven, passionate and working toward a goal. They are not people who feel sorry for themselves. They are people who are thankful to be alive and to be here. Maybe if you started counting your blessings for a change and stopped looking at life from a self-centered perspective you might be able to help yourselves.
These are stupid. Demand 3: Some kinds of work are worth a higher wage than others. And some people work harder than others and deserve more pay. Sorry. Demand 4: Are you asking teachers to work for no pay? Are you asking taxpayers to foot yet another bill? Not gonna happen. Again: stupid. Demand 5: People have been working on this for decades and we still don’t have a solution because the alternatives are too expensive and not yet viable. Your silly demands are childish and won’t help us get there any faster. Demand 6: More spending will only bring us closer to bankruptcy (and collective poverty) faster. Demand 8: The U.S. does a better job of this than any other country in the world. Utopia? No. Is any place else better? I doubt it. Deal with it. Time to grow up and face the real world. Demand 9: This is nothing but a recipe for destroying the sovereign rights of citizens and nations. You won’t get any support for this from the vast majority of citizens. Non-starter. Demand 10: The international voting standards are a joke. Better to pursue reforms in our own country. Americans can always do better. Demands 11 and 12: This shows a basic dishonesty on the part of those who borrowed money in the first place. You borrowed the money and gave your word to pay it back. Now do it. Demand 13: What if someone doesn’t want to join a union? Unions are an out-of-date concept. They spend all their time and energy raising money and accumulating power for themselves now. They could care less about the rank-and-file anymore.
These demands are nothing more than boilerplate propaganda against basic American values and for international collectivism. Most people will be smart enough to see through this. The jobs these demands will supposedly create will all be mediocre jobs. But what do most people want: a chance to have a mediocre job that pays minimum wage and be like everyone else or a chance to achieve their dreams? That’s the great thing about America: it is the place where we can go for our dreams.
It’s a place where two kids can start a computer company in a garage (without government subsidies) that goes on to become one of the biggest companies in the world. It’s a place where a 50-something paper cup salesman can buy a hamburger stand and turn it into one of the largest hamburger chains in the world. It’s a place where a college dropout who’s obsessed with writing computer code can design a program that completely changes the computer industry and makes computers (PCs) affordable for consumers (and makes him a mega millionaire along the way). It’s a place where kids with nothing become sports and music and acting superstars by sheer dint of hard work and will. It’s a place where an immigrant can come with nothing and open a store or buy a cab and start a business and within a generation build something successful to pass on to his children. We read these kind of stories all the time. But this doesn’t happen to people sitting on their butts with their hands out. The people in these stories are people who are driven, passionate and working toward a goal. They are not people who feel sorry for themselves. They are people who are thankful to be alive and to be here. Maybe if you started counting your blessings for a change and stopped looking at life from a self-centered perspective you might be able to help yourselves.
How about, Get Money Out of the Government! Selling this country to the highest bidder is just wrong, and disinfranchises 99% of us from having any say in our government!
How about, Get Money Out of the Government! Selling this country to the highest bidder is just wrong, and disinfranchises 99% of us from having any say in our government!
How about, Get Money Out of the Government! Selling this country to the highest bidder is just wrong, and disinfranchises 99% of us from having any say in our government!
How about, Get Money Out of the Government! Selling this country to the highest bidder is just wrong, and disinfranchises 99% of us from having any say in our government!
How about, Get Money Out of the Government! Selling this country to the highest bidder is just wrong, and disinfranchises 99% of us from having any say in our government!
You are delusional. Free college? Debt forgiveness? Open borders? Free money? $20 minimum wage? (why do you need a minimum wage with income regardless of employment??
Why not demand unicorns and flying puppies? You need an adjustment in your meds.
hahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahaha
Is this a joke?
Lets add another "demand": Along with deleting the borders let just terminate the sovereignty of the US and get it over with.
Many of these demands would cause hyper-inflation, financial collapse, and finally the collapse of the US government. I don't think these, Keynesian, demands are the answer!
The problem is that the Federal Government and corrupt people we apathetically elected to run it have departed from the Constitutional principals that made it the once great nation it used to be.
If you want to do something REALLY constructive then actually organize yourselves, march on Washington DC and "demand" that Barack Obama surrender the Oval Office. Then lets turn the "Captains" chair over to someone that I believe is genuinely sincere about wanting to "Restore America". The person I am referring to is Ron Paul. I absolutely believe he would put the country well on the road to recovery.
(Ron Paul 2012)
I think your anger is misdirected and your allowing yourself to be used by outside forces that do not necessarily share your sentiment. If you truly want more jobs, than you should not be directing your anger towards those who create jobs, but those who stifle job creation. It is the policies of the White House that is doing just that.
You people (those that actually ARE human) can't be serious. Can you?
Shall we take these apart one at a time?
Demand One: A "living wage", huh? Well, doesn't THAT just sound dandy. And, oh yes, raise the minimum wage to $20 per hour. Why not a hundred, geniuses? What makes you think that eveyone is WORTH twenty dollars an hour? Do you have any idea what will happen to that 99 cent McDouble at McDonald's?
Demand Two: Socialized medicine. Surprise! Not worthy of comment.
Demand Three: See Demand One. It's the same thing, morons.
Demand Four: Free college. To go along with your free health care, I guess. How about free food? Free electricity? Why not free EVERYTHING? Now, how about those of us that actually PAID for our OWN educations? I guess we don't count, huh? Or do we get a refund?
Demand Five: Ubama's already on that one for you, kiddies. Can you say "S-O-L-Y-N-D-R-A"?
Demand Six: A trillion on infrastructure. Sounds good. Why stop there? Why not a hundred trillion? After all, we're going to take everything from the rich. Why not spend it on infrastructure - after we pay for everyone's health care and college.
Demand Seven: Another trillion to restore the ecology and shut down nuke plants. So we get rid of fossil fuels and nukes and what's left? Oh, that's right. Solar and wind. Try this one again..."S-O-L-Y-N-D-R-A".
Demand Eight: I thought that we already had equal rights one and all.
Demand Nine: Open borders. Sure. Everyone welcome. How about another hundred trillion or so for this?
Demand Eleven: I really don't have a problem with this one. Will this ensure that dead people don't vote???
Demand Twelve: Sure. WTF?
Demand Thirteen: SECRET ballot. Right?
This is a joke, isn't it?
A complete copy of our demands are available for you to view. Any one who sends me their e-mail address, I will send them a pdf document of our demands. mlinder3@gatech.edu The above is great, but don't start your demands from a compromise. Ask for the world, then negotiate from there.
A complete copy of our demands are available for you to view. Any one who sends me their e-mail address, I will send them a pdf document of our demands. mlinder3@gatech.edu The above is great, but don't start your demands from a compromise. Ask for the world, then negotiate from there. Michelle
Pretty funny. How will you have trade restrictions without borders?
Also, when you forgive debt that means the people who lent the money will never get it back. What about all the hard working people who have pensions? Those pensions are invested in debt around the world. Tell those people to get back to work, because if you forgive all the debt their retirements are gone.
Pretty funny. How will you have trade restrictions without borders?
Also, when you forgive debt that means the people who lent the money will never get it back. What about all the hard working people who have pensions? Those pensions are invested in debt around the world. Tell those people to get back to work, because if you forgive all the debt their retirements are gone.
I'd debate you, but you're don't deserve one.
You're that fucking stupid.
Read a little. Get an education. Then come back to the real world instead of some 420 (cough) induced world where idiot idealists like to mentally masturbate with each other with completely ludicrous plans for solving the worlds ills.
This was fucking comical.
No joke. Metaphorically speaking.
Wow. I wonder what this moron sounds like when he/she isn't smoking crack.
IDIOTS! All of you protestors! Can you not think on your own? Don't you use cell phones, computers, cars, fast food etc etc during your protests? All made by greedy capitalists?! Steve Jobs and Bill gates did more to create employment and jobs for the people than any 10 governments ever did. Wake up and smell their emplyment! Everready
IDIOTS! All of you protestors! Can you not think on your own? Don't you use cell phones, computers, cars, fast food etc etc during your protests? All made by greedy capitalists?! Steve Jobs and Bill gates did more to create employment and jobs for the people than any 10 governments ever did. Wake up and smell their emplyment! Everready
WOW! Stupidity has a new face. Why don't the liberals and the unions just come out from behind the scenes and show their ugly agenda for what it is. If you really want these demands implemented, you are an IDIOT. Leave the USA immediately. Do not pass go, do not collect your extended unemployment and kiss your freedom goodbye. SEE YA
These demands are fantastic! I think that the government will understand. Especially the "free college education" one and the "erase all debt" one. No one should have a problem accepting these terms. They would be ridiculous not to!
For all those who don't understand sarcasm...that was an example of heavy sarcasm.
Lloyd. Are you kidding me? Have you thought about these demands at all past how they would benefit you? Really? This whole OWS thing is ridiculous mainly because the protesters have little to zero organization.
We Dont Need "Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live."
If more people are coming in WE WILL HAVE NO JOBS LEFT FOR US who are already un-employed...
No New Green Cards Should be issued.. FUCK OFF if you dont agree... i dont give a damn about such protest if you bringing in people from out to our country.....
Lloyd, I think it was well thought out and I'm hoping those 1 percenters realize that a 2 class system of, the rich and those that serve the rich, will always have the same end result.
I can't really agree with forgiving all debt (especially the foreign debt the Republicans ran up over the last 30 years) and the debt of those irresponsible persons that just cannot help themselves to have the latest crap or gizmo or model vehicle, or those that decided to live well beyond their means when purchasing a home. I suggest we force those Lenders to refinance every one of those home loans at 1 percent interest rate over a 40 or 50 year term. I belive that would lower the monthly payments enough that a responsible person working 40 hours a week can afford. For those who could show that they were able to make their monthly payments and subsequently lost their job should be given debt deferrment until a job can be found or provided under a major government bail out / jobs program (at least $10 trillion) of the people. Those that sill cannot afford those terms probably should not have purchased a home in the first place.
I think the rich will never voluntarily agree to being fairly taxed which should be at around 75% rate. I foresee the Forbes' list of the richest 500 Americans eventually becoming a "hit list".
I think those responsible for the collapse of the world economies should be arrested and all of their assets seized and returned to the treasury.
Finally, I think Obama/Biden should resign as president/vice president and Alan Greyson/Dennis Kucinich should be appointed for the next 8 years to undo every peice of legislation enacted under Bush/ Cheney, every appointment terminated (including those to the supreme court), and an immediate end to war and occupation of foreign nations. Finally, Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and the rest of the Bush/Cheney bunch should be tried for war crimes and hung with the same rope they used on Saddam.
You are an idiot
You people are crazy and out of control.
So in other words, lets just have everything for free and oh yes, give me the good stuff too because I deserve it because I live in the US, thats why. And oh, I want a Mercedes too, because again, I deserve it. Oh, and can you throw kick out the people who own homes because I don't have one and I deserve it more that they do.
OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!!!!1
You people are crazy and out of control.
So in other words, lets just have everything for free and oh yes, give me the good stuff too because I deserve it because I live in the US, thats why. And oh, I want a Mercedes too, because again, I deserve it. Oh, and can you throw kick out the people who own homes because I don't have one and I deserve it more that they do.
OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!!!!1
I support every demand listed. The system is too broken to have any less than 13 demands. I'd make it 100. -- Why are there no campaign finance transparency demands? Or monopoly busting demands? Or hold the 1% accountable for the 2008 crash demands? Is there another more official list?
And... and... and.... uhhh.... FREE PIZZA FOR LIFE! Yeah that's it! Are you people serious or is this really just a weird joke?
Go home and come up with something credible and grownup. And for God's sake stop defecating in public places.
I think all of these are great!!! How has it taken so long for the voice of reason and equality to be heard in this country? While I think all of these are obviously great and would drastically have a positive effect on the nation I feel like a few were omitted. Please allow me the honor to share this great forum with you and add to the list: 14) The "1 percent" or wealthiest Americans be forced to pay reperations to ALL other classes of US Citizens in an amount deemed apropriate by the federal government and all taxes moving forward, to make up for their exploitation of workers and shady business dealings. The other 99 percent of the population will no longer pay taxes of any kind. 15) If you agree with that or any of the other 13 demands that you be immediately admitted to the nearest mental or substance abuse facility in your area free of charge because you are clinically ill. Seriously, did these "demands" look more reasonable on your mom's basement computer monitor as they were being typed amidst a plume of weed smoke? I hope you get the Cheetos cleaned off of your fingers long enough to type a response. If it is anything near the caliber of your previous work I'm sure we're all in for a real for a real treat...And why did you set your sights so low on the new minimum wage? The Burger King fry guy isn't worth a penny less to me than a Neurosurgeon....you really need to get your priorities in line, I'm sure they were deeply saddened by a measly 20 bucks an hour...
Your absurd demands serve only to highlight the extent of your utter ignorance of economics.
http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/10/a-clear-message-for-occupy-wall-street/
These are the most important focused demands suggested so far. This is what you fools need to be pushing not some list of communist garbage. nobody deserves "a living wage" as far as im concerned if you cant provide for yourself you "deserve" to die!!
This looks like something designed to discredit the movement. Not sure what your goals are Lloyd, but this is definitely not a serious political document.
This looks like something designed to discredit the movement. Not sure what your goals are Lloyd, but this is definitely not a serious political document.
Who is going to fund this list!!!!!!!!!???????
How are we going to fund this list??????
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHH THIS SHIT IS FUCKING RIDICULOUS
If this ever enters an armed struggle phase I will be gladly ambushing your convoys :D
ROFL, I could've stopped reading at number 1 and have not wasted my time with this idiocracy. NONE of this will ever NOR should much of it ever happen. There are so many things inherently wrong with these demands that it makes me sick to think the person who wrote them is considered educated.
1) Ending "FreeTrade", we tried that once, remember? Post 1929 collapse? Tariffs limit access to goods and wreck economies. Prices on ALL goods will increase and therefore make a living wage impossible.
2) Sure this is nice in theory, but in what world will private insurance companies be eliminated? And in what world do you think that they take away from hospitals? The only reason half of your hospitals exist is due to the fact that these insurance companies fund, and keep them running profitably.
3) ... Again, nice in theory, not practical nor possible in reality. Show me how this can be done, because if it can then I'm certain it would have happened by now. There is no way this is feasible.
4) LOL, though I'd love to be able to get a free degree (or even subsidized one) this won't happen. WHERE do you propose the money for this such a thing to come from?
5) ... K by this point I've already decided your educationally challenged, this again nice theory, not practical nor plausible. You can't "bring up demand", you are the demand. Fossil fuels will be phased out one day, its inevitable, but its not happening anytime soon nor should it as the technology isn't quite there yet. It'll take time, but throwing money at it wont solve the problem over night.
6) Again, where do you suppose that money will come from? Do you wish to bring in Public Works projects like we did in the 30's? Or do you have some other magical unionized solution that'll take decades to fullfil.
7) Meh. nice theory on the restoring forests and stuff, can't complain there. But decommissioning nuclear power?!?!? Gosh wow, you want to eliminate perhaps the most environmentally efficent power sources in the world? For the power output, nuclear power is perhaps the cleanest and most effective way to provide power. Do you propose ecologically destroying Hydro Dams everywhere? Coal Plants? Wind Farms hahahaha... Nothing else is sustainable today nor near as efficient and again this demand is foolish and uneducated.
Here are my demands: No 1: Immediate withdraw all U.S. troops from overseas. No 2: All banks which took the stimulus tax dollars must pay the U.S. Government back their debts by end of 2011 No 3: Outlaw lobbyist and it's influence to our government No 4: End the Federal Reserve and it's influence to our nations' finance No 5: Ban all large company bailout plan No 6: George Bush and Dick Chaney must be trailed for treason for their involvement in Iraq invasion and misinformation No 7: All illegal immigrants must be departed immediately
We are here to defend our country against all enemies foreign and domestic.
Whoever wrote these demands must be on funny mushrooms or a communist sympathizer. The real men who risked everything to ensure the First Amendment protects sillyness like this must be rolling in their graves. Bye the way, our Progessive President and his far left liberal allies in Congress have been milking the Wall Street money train forever, as has been their Republican opposition. Perhaps you should be in D.C. telling those knuckleheads to get their act together. The best thing about this country, is that thousands have died and sacrified so you can say anything regardless of how stupid it is. Let see if you will still be in NYCity when it hits 20 degress and the snow is falling.
Lloyd...go left you A-hole...no matter how much your liberal ass wants we given, and given to those not willing to participate within the workforce...when will you butts ever learn there is no free ride? I have a suggestion for you and all the others want handouts on the backs of hard working middle-class folks...when the welfare checks arrive...when the food stamps...arrive...when the free health care is provided all recipients are required to do a minimum of 40 hours of community duty...like picking up trash...like cleaning up graffiti...like helping the elderly to doctors appointments and assisting with their needs. I believe most of the elderly helped pay for your lack of involvement over the last god knows how many years. As for open boarders get a grip...my grandparents came over to this country to become a citizen...they learned the language and they certainly didn't swim across the Rio Grande, or cut a hole in some fence along the Arizona-Texas boarder. They came over on a boat, processed through Ellis Island and eventually became AMERICAN CITIZEN'S...usually with the help of a sponsor. All I can say to your demands is F**K you and the horse you rode in-on...perhaps you'd like to migrate across your Southern Boarder to Mexico and see how you're treated...after reading your demands I understand you've been smoking some very potent shit...or maybe crack?? Get a life and become productive you asshole...the debits you're talking about have been created by YOUR OWN GREED, AND NEED TO BE LIKE THE FOLKS THAT HAVE WORKED HARD, PAID THEIR WAY, AND HAVE SACRIFICED SO YOU WANNABE'S COULD RIDE ALONG WITHOUT ANY CONTRIBUTION...OH MY...you're a sorry bunch.
Let's focus on one goal at the time, first and foremost regulate the financial system, let's make sure we don't get into this mess again or at least not for the same reasons. This is a worthwhile goal, achievable, easy for people to stand behind and support.
I have eviscerated your goofy "list of demands", enjoy:
http://voltronsplace.blogspot.com/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-list-of-demands-lol.html
my entire post is on: http://piratepad.net/9Y20JqNkSI -anyone can add their thoughts! multiple people can type at the same time.
1) cut out of control spending (war/military, nasa, atf, cia, fbi, politicians-#3) 2) a law to abolish abuse of technology advancement and sabotage of resources. (power sources, electronics, and appliances made to fail) 3) a voting system that is not based on a small group, everyone is included and NOone will be excluded from voting In America OR In the world. ( we do not need people to vote for us, we have the technology to vote for ourselves!) 4)a law stating that No one person can have more then 100 Million dollars in their control or possession! i think this number is still to high but its a good marker.
This Voting System - Would Not have a primary key index per person (Would Not have one number per person, like social security.. this is to protect everyone's privacy)
It would have anti-automation preventing bots or people from skewing the votes.( using techniques such as captchas, little boxes with almost unreadable characters that a real-person can understand and submit to the server) a captcha per X votes or a captcha per Yminutes XDays for timeout (i call this vote captcha timeout)
... people would vote to vote:
-vote for vote duration (how long the vote poll is open) -vote for vote time extension (more time for vote poll to stay open) -vote for true false (pre-vote to agree statements and definitions) -vote captcha timeout (how many votes or how much time to vote)
an algorithm could be introduced to extend time of voting automatically by monitoring the number of people votes per hour. (this could be voted to use or how to use)
-voters may have to qualify to vote (test of knowledge) but to save time this would mean they become just a number (like social security number) which could be debatable because of privacy issues that may occurs, but could be argued a good alternative to proceed.
the last thing is .. if these votes are broken... who pulls the trigger to indite or to bring charges against? (a voting integrity group?)
This group cannot be "bought" or "bribed" where they have everything they need or want with respect to waste of resources (they only get what they need) (how much time can they serve? life? five years? ten?) FOR EXCHANGE - they will maintain integrity and another group is able to watch that group's integrity, and you would have tri-force in a circle of three groups that watch each other. 1 watches 2 , 2 watches 3, 3 watches 1... and the cycle starts over. (tri-enforce agency)
once someone is brought to a trail they are voted against (12 people?) people in a: ( City?) (County?) (State?) (Region?)
This would be another vote: punishments, rehabilitation, and their threats to the community. the voting integrity group would have strict rules in the voting system that could be voted on.
fast action groups (like police would still be in force but follow
(a new constitutions: to be named)
this constitution could be constructed through a wiki page, forums page, and a voting page. (each piece of paragraph would have definitions deep of explication and could/would be rendered so anyone with an 8th grade or above education would understand)
the wiki pages would have object oriented buttons that when clicked would take you to the discussion pages or buttons to the up and outcomes of voting
we would still have courts, we would still have police, fire departments, and ambulances)
in the future if money is still used, where money can be controlled and viewed where it has started, and a history of where it's been, and current history of where it is today.
This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. "Open borders migration." Don't we already have an illegal immigrant issue...that will just make it worse. And for anyone that says to bring in the illegals to work for cheaper wages...just look at California which implements that and tell me that it works. California has some of the worst debt out of all the states in the country. According to Forbes magazine...it is the fourth state with the most debt troubles (behind Illinois, New York, and Connecticut).
Also, "immediate debt forgiveness for all"...so how will the government get all that money back. These idiots "occupying wall street" need to stop. It is costing time and money, neither of which the United States can afford. So stop complaining and making ridiculous demands and just get off your butts and do something about it!
I don't understand why people are demanding unicorns. They don't exist. Please let's stick to realistic demands and work on what Lloyd has posted so far. Once we have achieved all 13 demands then maybe we can look at genetically modifying horses into Unicorns (that shit gold), chocolate roads and all the other stuff we need. Let's focus and prioritize!
The first demand discredits the movement. It has a content highly discriminatory, rather than solidarity, which is exclusionary and especially inappropriate for the search for a new international order. Confines the movement on an exclusive basis to the United States.
A single demand would bring more effect to resolve many of the social demands, health, education and labor, which is to demand a tax on financial transactions and the obligation to pay taxes to the multinational conglomerates that export capital. Not I will continue to support the movement to less that change the first demand.
Demand three: That would never work. Why would someone ever work a difficult or dangerous job?
Demand four: I agree that education should be available to anyone who wants to pursue it, but how does one pay for free college education for everyone? Who will pay the teachers? Buy the library books? Build the dormitories? If every college will be 100% federal government-funded, then the federal government will controlling all of the colleges/universities in the country. I certainly would never agree to that scenario. If they want to help college students, remove the ridiculous profits in the private student loan industry.
Demand five: This is pie-in-the-sky stuff unless the government is willing to release all of its black-ops technology where it is alleged that free energy like Mr. Fusion does exist. Assuming that free energy does not exist yet, then there is no way to transition out of fossil fuels without decimating the economy. Further, the so-called "green energy" push by the government is a scam as evidenced by the recent political scandal in the solar energy industry. Our current state of technology is not a viable substitute for fossil fuel energy. It may make someone feel good to drive a Prius, but what happens when the world runs out of the rare earth metals needed to construct the battery technology?
Demand one: Why not tax the profits of American corporations who incorporate and operate in other nations simply for the avoidance and payment of taxes? The only problem is that most major corporations are multinational. If US imposes strict regulations or taxes, the corporations will simply remove all (or curtail a material portion) of its operations from the United States market to a more favorable market.
If the tariffs are too costly, then the corporations will pass those costs along to the American consumers who will no longer be able to afford the foreign goods. A void would potentially exist for American companies to produce these goods, but the current government regulations are barriers to entry for anyone aside from international investors. $20 an hour minimum wage would never work. It would kill more jobs than it would save. Many businesses do not make enough money to pay its employees $20/hour, so it would have to terminate staff. A rise in minimum wage for everyone would also cause inflation, because everyone would be making more money.
Demand two: I agree that the insurance industry is a huge issue, but allowing the federal government to run all of health care would be even worse. I wouldn't necessarily be against some type of federally subsidized program for basic health needs, but I am against any federal mandate that everyone has to buy insurance.
This list looks like it was written by a bunch of retarded hobos. Some of this stuff would create a global financial crash, and the end of civilization as we know it.
Educate yourself, and then post some demands that make sense.
Do any of you realize that so many of these demands are also listed in the Communist Manifesto -- almost word for word if you look closely? I beg you to read it the Manifesto and understand what you are doing to bring down a free nation that has fed the hungry, clothed the poor, raised the global standard of living and helped to secure the freedom of millions and millions of people over the last 235 years. You think your priorities are in the right place and that you are doing good, but you are serving the very evil you speak against.
Demand sixteen: The law of unintended consequences is repealed.
Demand fourteen: Santa Clause is real. Demand fifteen: Everyone gets a unicorn Demand sixteen: Everyone's IQ is 200
Regarding demand eleven: is this realistic? Are there any economist that can shed light on the domestic and international impact this would have? Both negative and positive.
some of these demands are just unrealistic lets take demand four for example free college you cannot expect to have free college its just impossible what it should say is decreased tuition or more federal aid/ grants for peopl trying to attend college
Fuck your "protest" You fucking mealy wormed, lice infested, professional activist scumbuckets.
Censoring? Where did my post go? Fucking asswipes
AGREE with all the demands and I can even suggest another one which is --> Demand # Fourteen: Redirect the huge military budget (already quoted at 1 TRILLION dollars for 2012) to social causes while at the same time increasing the VERY LOW taxes on the rich and SUPER rich. AMAZING to see so many right-wingers' comments here disguised as "concerned" people – this seems one big psychological operation… Power to the PEOPLE and Power to the PEACEFUL
You should say that you want communism instead! lol! stupid demand ever!
This is just ridiculous! It makes us all look like a bunch of unemployed lefty loosers. PLEASE remove before this alienates people who may otherwise join this movement!
This is just ridiculous! It makes us all look like a bunch of unemployed lefty loosers. PLEASE remove before this alienates people who may otherwise join this movement!
The idiots hit the nail right on the head in their first demand "environmental regulation advantages"??? ... Gee, does that mean government regulations are KILLING the American economy. Gee,,, DO YA THINK??? How about this rule... RADICAL DEREGULATION especially of building codes from private homes on private property and NO MORE property taxes EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want to build an earth home BUT its illegal to build a home that costs only $9,0000.00 to build. (The bankers hate earth homes too!!! No loans needed!!!) MASSIVE DEREGULATION IS NEEDED... Yes the secret is LESS RULES! WAY LESS!! Life was good in 1892 but people do not look back at the good o'l times of ZERO regulation. Everything was LEGAL in 1892
Ask for Bailout money back
LMAO! Too funny....... Move to Europe!
vote for Ron Paul. He been saying your message for 30 years.
I demand everyone in support of these demads to be entitled to a FREE glass of Jim Jones koolaid. Trust me, its free, it must make your life better.
My post was deleted... apparently this site does not appreciate free speech... trying again:
I agree with none of these... here are mine:
LOL. I have more!
If you meet all these requirements, I will agree to more college subsidization. Deal?
About the author: Hi. I pay twice in federal taxes each month as I do in all my other monthly bills (house, cars etc). I am a socially moderate, political libertarian with strong conservative economic views.
If OWS is a leaderless cause, who determines what list is offical or UNofficial? Is Lloyd the leader? Who appointed him the spokesperson? I'm becoming disillusioned......
(1) A living wage at $20/hr isn't a living wage at all, but a farse that will only lead to the implosion and complete destruction of the American economy. And then will that money be worth? Nothing.
(2) What then for those of us who want nothing to do with health-care and want nothing to do with paying for us and others to have it?
(3) Then whats the point of working anyways? Let's just trash America.
(6) And where is this money coming from?
(7) Once again where is all this money coming from? Did you know that Generation 5 nuclear power plants are the cleanest form of energy on the planet? They don't kill wildlife or destroy ecosystems like windmills and water turbines. And they aren't a joke like solar power.
(8) This already exists.
(9) This is in complete confliction with demand #1. You want to end the competition posed by foreign countries, but then want to invite that competition to come live with us?????
(11) Wipe all debt...and the again I must stress where is the 2 trillion dollars you are demanding going to come from!?
These demands will do nothing short of causing business's either shut down or leave the country in light of the high cost of employing workers. This will increase unemployment of those who decide to work (as I imagine most would settle for unemployment). With all debts canceled the value of the dollar will plummet, and those 2 trillion dollars will only further this.
You sir, only seek to induce anarchy in America. And to do so by whining to the government. Oh child, stand up for something real and do the real good work to gain it.
50% of the population controls 2% of the wealth.
To the bottom 50% - Stop dragging down the top 50% by being stupid and lazy.
Also - you people don't represent 99% of the population. So quit acting like you do.
I am not sure there is a true education here. In addition, there are a lot of conflicting requests. Let's break each one down:
One - Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour?? So, a 16 year old kid that is serving at a fast food restaurant or a grocery store would earn $20 per hour? You are going to create MORE monopolies and shove the entrepreneurs (mom and pop grocery stores, individually owned restaurants, etc...) In addition, the expense of all your groceries and meals will go up in order to pay everyone at that rate.
Two - A universal single payer healthcare system....well, now you have just erased all the jobs of those private insurers.
Three - Can you define what a 'living wage' is? That's the issue - perception is 90% of the rule. This is also saying that a high school drop out and a college graduate can have the same income??
Four - This one just made me laugh. How do you expect the college to pay all the professors/teachers? How do you expect them to pay for lights? Heat? Air Conditioning? Think of the monthly bills you have just on your own place of living? Now make that about 3000 (or more) times larger.
Five - If you have stayed up to date on the scientific community you would already know that they are working very hard to improve 'alternative energy' - in fact I just saw a commercial yesterday about turning our trash into energy.
Six and Seven - Where do you think this 6 trillion dollars is coming from?
Eight - The racial and gender equal rights are gradually coming to a much better balance. Creating an amendment does not change the opinion of those closed minded people. Is this what you want the government meeting about? Or do you want them to find your 6 trillion dollars??
Nine - Open borders - hmmmm....so all those jobs you were wanting and the $20 minimum wage and the guaranteed 'living wage income' are going to be given to those coming into America. I really haven't seen nor heard of Americans trying to sneak across the borders to get jobs in Mexico. You can travel - just get a passport and catch a flight anywhere you want.
Ten - So, we will get results from voting in weeks/months instead of minutes? Are you paying those people $20 per hour to count? What about the individuals of the independent and party servers system? How much to they get to sit there and watch other people count paper? This is the day and age of electronics - do you happen to have a microwave? A smart phone? You mention fast tracking one process and then bringing another to almost a complete halt...
Eleven and Twelve - Are you truly serious here? So, If I go out and purchase a 2.5 million dollar house - Which there is NO WAY I could EVER afford, I could move in (because there are no credit reporting agencies) and have all debt erased? Really? And, who has to pay for the house then? What about the people I had purchased the house from? And the bank that gave me the loan? Who pays the people who built the house if it is brand new? I just took money out of their pockets. I could continue to come up with examples of how ridiculous these 'demands' are.
Thirteen - Workers do have the right to either join or not join a union. If they decide to join, then they actually vote those representatives to represent them.
Please - I would LOVE to hear how only 13 'demands' will create 'so many jobs’ - so far, I have seen you actually REMOVE more jobs, and create MORE debt in our country. It really isn't as easy as you put on one page. I have an idea. Pick up a newspaper or go on line to any job recruiting website and see how many jobs area out there. It may not be the 'perfect' job for you right now, however at least it is money coming in the door.
My mom told me ever since I was a kid that if I was able to stand there with my hand out I might as well be handing a hamburger and fries to someone and making money for it.
Ok, this was mildly amusing. The 'demands' remind me of Judy's, my 7 year old's, recent 'demand':
'Daddy, I don't like school and I not want to go anymore. And, I want to be smarter than Jodi [my 13 year old]. So you make me smarter right now, OK?'
So Lloyd, you silly child-like twit, sorry, but no you can not have... well you can't have any of these demands at all. Oh, and no Lloyd, we are not having Ice Cream and Cookies for dinner tonight either, and no you can not keep a pony in your bedroom either.
You know, all this does beg the question: 'What sort of morons follow such a nut case?
These "college students" as you say don't even have the oppertunity to move up through a job, or a company- unless its mcdonalds or the like. Seasoned workers that are supposed to be retiring aren't, they can't, aged persons are losing their jobs promoting them to search for others. Pretend you are head of a well-to-do business. Will you hire the grad student fresh out of school with no expirance, or joe schmo that also has a degree who worked in the feild for 25 yrs and just got canned because his business bombed? The point is, there are no jobs out there. Degree or no degree. And some people, like myself, have been looking and looking without sucess and won't ever be able to find jobs in the areas we live as our parents did. I'm so glad all you "old people" are living so cushy while I'm applying for foodstamps, just because the economy was better when you were a "college kid" I'm in debt up to the celing of my shitty apartment, starving, and oh yeah I didn't have the 10k to pay for my last semester of college so I don't even have a degree yet. I'm a hardworking intelligent person wanting to start my life, pushing 30, and the 'fact' is I can't. Not anytime soon. Things need to change in america, that's the point of the occupations. Just remember when all you "old people" are in nursing homes sucking up your social security, we won't be able to run this shit hole because we'll all be homeless. There are no set demands for anyone, but everyone all agrees that america isn't working, and needs refor, change. We voted in obama for that reason and he hasn't delivered yet, at least not in my area.
uh i am not a fan of demand nine. im sorry, but that is right out stupid.
Their demands in a nut shell: I WANT SOMEONE TO GIVE ME THEIR MONEY, IF I SPEND UT UNWISELY THEN THEY SHOULD GIVE ME MORE MONEY!!!!!!!
Oh my, you have some serious entitlement issues and no real concept of how an economy works. You belong in Congress!
If people worked and were responsible with their money half the problems would have never happen. But these fools all want a do over cause they are all to lazy and irresponsible. Just like the libs - live above your means and spend more than you have then cry about how unfair life is. Just cause I work hard and saved up my money, spent it wisely why should I have to give it to these lazy bums!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Although this is a single individual, here is my critique as this is being used by the news as a formal document.
There is no consistency between each demand. Reading this as is, it seems as if these were jotted down based on free thinking or brainstorming.
1) $20/hr? Erroneous. I refuse to accept that someone working at a job DESERVING minimum wage be provided any more money than is necessary to live.
2) What no one makes obvious is that universal healthcare is not working well in other countries. We are a capitalist country and imposing non-capitalist requirements destroys the benefits that make the United States the wonderful country it is.
3) No. Welfare is in place and many people abuse it. Guaranteed living wage is not a birthright. Food is. Move on.
4) No. Lowered college tuitions should be demanded, but the "free" education system is ridiculous. Additionally, if all citizens gather a college tuition, the number of students being hired will actually decrease.
5) Agreed.
6) These are responsibilities of the state, not the fed or wall street. Protest your state government.
7) Refer to 6. Nuclear power is not a hazard. Improper maintenance in Japan does not mean we have the same problem.
8) Yes. Nothing to do with Wall Street, though. Move your protest and isolate the protests to a specific demand or collection of demands.
9) Open borders migration? Work anywhere in the US. It's legal. If you want a job elsewhere, get a Visa and live in another country.
10) We have them. Having the civilians actually push local governments for an impeachment should be enacted if there are questions or disagreements.
11) Don't take loans you can't pay. Stop using credit for money you don't have. Capitalist countries do not thrive on citizens who cannot support themselves. They thrive on a collective of citizens who do obtain loans based on their money. The US economy is failing because of indiscretions of both corporations and the citizens who are not using their money correctly.
12) Agreed. Credit companies, however, need a way to gauge the reliability of the individual. Change the statement. Have FEWER credit reporting agencies, or limit the access to the information provided by them to specific types of companies, rather than all loan/credit providers.
13) Agreed.
These requests are not all incorrect, but they are not all applicable to the forum in which they are being presented. Disband, organize the information & demands, and present the protesting and information in the appropriate venues.
Why stop at demand 3? A "living wage" means less comfort than the rich have. We demand that all people be rich! That means at least a 3000 sq. ft. luxury condo for city dwellers, or a 2 story 5000 sq ft. house in the suburbs. We want the best restaurants, and travel, and access to all the best entertainment, just like the stinking rich people! All regardless of employment status! Or, if for some strange reason that's not possible, then we want everyone living in tiny apartments in concrete buildings, and waiting in long lines even for simple food items. At least that would be fair.
why don't we just tear up the constitution while we're at it. open borders?? man, i can't believe im reading this. 20 dollar minimum wage.....hahahahahha. how is that going to help business? free college......ok, just slap on more taxes so i can pay for the lazy and under-employed education. once lazy, always lazy. school won't change that. you will just go to holding up a sign saying how unfair life has been to you anyway. F""K OFF!!! guaranteed income whether you work or not.....did i read that correctly?? how many doobies did the writers of these demands have?? or editors?? im surprised that the demand for public sex with a donkey isn't on here somewhere. WTF
Great points! Mao and Kim Jung il would be very proud of you. However, this is absurd. The amount of wealth is finite, and your ideas consume it with no incentive to replace it. Only deadbeats want to take hard earned money from others. Don't believe me. Just ask the deadbeat on the corner trying to take your money. Where do you think capital and wealth come from? They certainly don't come from deadbeats like you and your deadbeat protestors. Why should those who get an education, get a job, and accomplish something give anything to deadbeats like you. And, if you take it from them, then everyone will be a deadbeat like you.
Wow. Better to keep quiet and let people think you're an idiot than to post your "demands" on the web and remove all doubt. Who's paying for all this free stuff and debt forgiveness? Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money. Don't you see that's what's happening here... and in EUROPE!? You really need to take some economics courses (and pass them) before you start spouting stuff like this or you will simply stay on the fringe of the discussion. Trillions of dollars of debt can NOT be "forgiven". But if you're in a forgiving mood, why not start by forgiving all YOUR assets first. Go ahead. Sell all your stuff (including the computer you used to post this tripe) and donate the proceeds to charity. Maybe then you'll feel better about things because you've actually accomplished something.
Wow! This is HILARIOUS! Thanks for a great laugh! Although, by accident it appears you got one right, the elimination of the credit reporting agencies. They are nothing by an "I love debt score". Other than that, your Cheech and Chong approach to our country is indeed very humorous, too screwed up to to misguided. So cudos.
America is broke. This is nothing but a socialist wish list of entitlements an' giveaways...more "I don't wanna work for a living!" and "Why spend mine when I can spend yours?" slugs an' slackers who think the world - an' especially the USA - owes them a living.
For the benefit, grace an' blessing of being born an American citizen, they should feel they owe the nation something back - remember "Ask not what your country can do for you - Ask what you can do for your country"???
Like I said at the start, America is broke, Just who in th' hell do these parasites think is gonna PAY FOR all these demands they have?...an' who do they think they are issuing demands when they have done nothing to earn or deserve the right to demand anything? Society owes them nothing...an' neither does the world at large, for that matter. Whatever happened to "earn your own way?" Thank You, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, LBJ, an' Barry Ozero...we now have an entire generation of pampered public welfare parasites...an' we cannot afford them...the public teat has dried up...so has the wishing well... If this street rabble is representative of the upcoming generation of Americans, then, as a nation, we are in some really deep doodoo... These protestors don't know how to do anything but whine an' make nonsense demands...that will never get them anywhere but skid row or behind bars...They need ideas, not posters making senseless demands that cannot and will not be met...Who do they think they are, anyway?
Can we deport Lloyd to Cuba?
Over the last couple of days in reading these comments I've been struck by the absolute ignorance by some people. First of all, Lloyd, you can't defend your position with any measure of intellectual honesty. You resort to name calling if someone doesn't agree to you. "Paranoid" "moron" and other derogatory terms. But you still won't (or can't) answer my question - what if I want to work for less than $20 dollars per hour? Say I choose to enter into an employment contract with someone for $3.50 an hour. Would I be free to do that or would I be restricted under your system from doing so? Would that become a crime?
All of you out there occupying the corner of Wall and Broad, you have no concept of personal freedom. To you it's just some nebulous phrase. You have no concept of property rights. But the one area of ignorance that trumps them all is basic economics. In Demand Eleven - Debt Forgiveness you state that all debt must be forgiven. All of it, 100%. Uh, do you understand that all the money in the world is based on debt creation. Do you understand that that means the $1 bill in your pocket is simply a debt instrument? Please Lloyd, enlighten us because we're all listening - how in the world would you be able to pay anyone $20 per hour if you eliminated all debt in the world? There would be no money! It would all vanish into thin air. Poof! What do we do then? Trade beads I suppose.
Listen, I understand where you folks are heading with this whole thing. You're angry with the large multinationals and having to pay a ton of money for education and rising healthcare costs. But you're channeling your anger in the wrong direction. You need to focus on eliminating the Federal Reserve Bank which is not (as some would have you believe) a government entity. You need to focus your energy toward reigning in the military-industrial complex that has highjacked this country. Hey, here's an idea - let's take the profit motive out of war and see just how patriotic Halliburton and Raytheon are.
Your intentions, while I assume sincere, are misguided. And unfortunately you ignorance of the facts impedes your mission. You want a trillion dollars for infrastructure but want to do away with all debt. Again, with no debt there is no money so where does the trillion $ come from. Free college education? It would have to be because there wouldn't be any money to pay teachers. Single payor healthcare? And how do we pay doctors and nurses if there is no money? I suppose they could work, much like the rest of us would have to, out of the kindness of our hearts.
It seems to me that your list of demands is kind of like the old adage - throw everything up against the wall and see what sticks. Unfortunately some of it may stick and it will end up looking like an economic Jackson Pollock painting.
You need to pull your head out of libertarian theory and read some economic history and look at European countries where many of these policies are in place and the free market functions far better than the American market
You say this, and reality laughs. The EU is on the verge of economic ruin precisely because they adopted these policies.
The Germans are seriously thinking about whether or not they can afford to pay for the rest of the EU's socialist stupidity, and that thinking includes the possibility of withdrawal from the EU.
Actually Europe has a fraction of the debt of the US and are presently telling the bond holders of Greek debt that they will have to agree to a 50% hair cut on Greek debt if they want their banks to be bailed out. That sounds like debt forgiveness to me.
Well said. I think by this time next year we'll see the resurgence of the Deutsche Mark and Angela Merkel enjoying retirement.
Is it just me or does Lloyd seem a little reluctant to answer substantive questions? I can't seem to get an answer to mine no matter how many times I post them.
Again Lloyd, you seem to be dodging my question - if I want to enter into an employment contract on my own accord which pays me less than your proposed $20 per hour mandated minimum wage then can I? You don't seem to have a real answer for that and I know why. Because that kind of thinking doesn't fit into your collective mentality. And so you know, I've studied economic theory from Marx to Mises. Plus I have 56 years of real world experience, 25 of those in the healthcare industry.
Rather than giving us little perfunctory statements about how we just don't understand you can't answer even the simplest of questions or defend your position. Now, Europe. Uh, are we living on the same planet? Do you know that the Eurozone is falling apart. Why is that Lloyd? It's not for the reasons you think. It's because the Europeans have been sold a bill of goods by the ECB (European Central Bank) much like Americans have been sold out by our central bank, the Federal Reserve. Do you or do you not understand that in the present framework of currency creation your proposals would simply not work? Do you or do you not understand that if you eliminated all the debt in the world you'd eliminate money? It wouldn't exist!
I'm going to ask this one more time - you state in Demand One that the minimum wage must be raised to $20 per hour. What if I choose to work for a lesser wage because, well, I just do. And I find an employer who will pay me what I require even though it's less than the federal minimum wage. Why I choose to do this is unimportant and frankly nobody's business but my own. It's my choice. What happens, am I prosecuted for accepting less than the minimum wage? Is the employer prosecuted for paying me a lower wage? The reason I'm harping on this is that this simple little exercise is at the heart of why your demands won't work. They don't respect the individual and their choice. They don't allow for someone to enter into a contract with someone on terms they find acceptable. You want workers to have the freedom to vote for or against union representation but God forbid that me, an individual, can execute a contract to work for the company of my choice at whatever wage is mutually agreed upon. You want to eliminate debt but don't understand that every dollar, euro, yen, yuan and pound is created out of thin air at the discretion of central bankers. Unless and until you understand this very basic fact everything you say is pretty much nonsense.
And just so you know, I'm not a libertarian. I'm more of a panarchist.
This is the funniest thing I have ever read! You have no concept of the basic laws of business, economics or for that matter, human nature. Where does all the money come from? Even if you confiscated all the wealth in this country your eutopian dream wouldn't lastbefore choas, unemployment and inflation wipe evrything out. But hey, that's what you were probably wishing for anyway.
With debt forgiveness the fed will simply lend US currency at low interest rates to lenders who will lend into the 100% clean equity market and lenders will begin to buy treasury bonds again.
I demand that a REAL leader take the helm here; one who is personally responsible & doesn't count on the govt for anything except for the essentials (coining our money, protecting our borders).
I demand that we quit saying 'democracy' - we have a Constitutional Republic folks!
The overwhelming majority of business cost is labor. Tripling the minimum wage regardless of employment is foolish and shortsighted. It's primary effect will be to simply triple the cost of goods and services, especially when you dilute/eliminate competiton with the proposition to kill free trade. Policies such as these don't take place in a vacuum.
Secondly, the modern economy centers on information, not manufacturing, which is what these policies would promote. They strip away motivation to seek an advanced career when a menial labor position offers identical pay.
Third, why does our movement assume that people will seek employment at all if they are guaranteed a living wage with or without it?
Yeah information really helped the 43 million Americans pushed blow the poverty line because of the ill informed wall st. bankers who were raised to be ignorant of the needs of the working people.
Lloyd, tariffs impose artificially high prices protecting uncompetitive business's and make the government the beneficiary of the higher price. The buyer losses and big local business wins...aren't you opposed to the government giving price protection to business's to the detriment of consumers?
Please don't be offended but your no economist. Adam Smith showed this in "The Wealth of Nations" over 200 years ago.
So slave labor is a fair trade practice? Have you seen work conditions in China or in the NAFTA zone in Mexico?
Yes, I have, and you are lying.
These workers are not slaves. If your message is based on lies, then why should anybody listen to you?
They are economic slaves, paid so little they can't even afford decent food or housing and are having to take in the worst possible pollution. In some Chinese communities the pollution is so bad that the cancer rate is now 32% compared to almost 0% before American factories began to show up. It is no surprise that the most conservative American business leaders are creating these conditions in China and in Mexico's NAFTA zone.
They are slaves, you're just pretending they aren't because they aren't black and their supervisors aren't holding whips. (they use tasers and clubs instead, which get hidden when Westerners with cameras come nosing around)
In fact, they may have had it worse, because black slaves weren't exposed to an alphabet soup of toxic chemicals 24/7.
Why would we need to join a union (Demand 13)? With a guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment (Demand 3), why would anybody want to work? Why would anybody need a free college education (Demand 4) when you're not going to need a job because you have a guaranteed living wage regardless of employment (Demand 3). These demands wouldn't create any jobs, it's just that nobody would fill whatever jobs there are because they have guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment (Demand 3).
This is LloydHart's concept, which he is free to raise but does not represent the whole. At the moment there are no "demands" just a verbal working through by many people on concepts. Feel free to add your own or to disagree with what you see, it's a democratic stew at the moment.
John don't coddle the right wing fanatics that hyped this page. Everyone knows what an online forum is. If Occupy Wall St. doesn't start putting up some demands soon the entire movement will fizzle as the democrats suck all the air out of it with their reelection campaign.
Grow a spine people.
I have to admit I supported this until I found out just exactly what your demands are. These demands will completely destroy our individual freedom. It will require the brute force of government to implement. Have you not read about government and its caring for citizens? Let's see Mao, 76 million murdered, USSR 62 million murdered, Nazi Germany 21 million murdered, Chang Kia Chek 1925-1949 per Mao 10 million murdered. Where do you proposed the government comes up with the money for your $1 trillion - THEY HAVE TO STEAL IT~!!@!! ie you call it taxes but it is STEALING. Your proposals will make us slave to the government. Their will be no escape no matter how you live the government will be stealing your money to pay for these lunatic proposals and tracking our every more. You are nothing more than a modern day Mao or Lenin. That we certainly don't need.
LloydHart's demands are just that, his demands. At this point there isn't a full, complete and approved anything. It's an open forum where everyone is free to discuss, put forward, and shoot down what they like.
What part of "Proposed Demands" in a forum doesn't anybody understand. Clearly Fox news, Rush Limbaugh and hundreds of neo-conservative web sites focusing on these demands was an attempt to scare somebody into some kind of defensive position. Which has been partially successful. By this web site posting the disclaimer above this forum subject, whoever runs this web site has fallen back to a fearful place and is reacting out of fear of the right wing cabal hyping these demands. When you react out of fear you are already defeated. This is what the right wing counts on when they attack social or ecological justice activists.
Fear and doubt is at the heart of all these right wing posts funneled here by the right wing propaganda machine. We simply have to look at their reaction to this page as deep seated fear that they may have bitten off more than they can chew by pissing off the working people in this country so much so that the working people are now choosing street action to work out the frustration that has been created by the corporate and political bosses at who's trough the right wing feeds.
how you people can claim to represent America or be "defending the American dream" is beyond me. You and your nonsensical ideas have N-O-T-H-I-N-G to do with what America means.
AAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Good Luck.
Liberalism is a (failed) philosophy of unintended consequences. It's obvious from your demands that you don't have a clue that you don't have a clue. I.E. you're a-cluistic. Lloyd, you're living in La La Land
Oh that Vladimir Lenin could witness your glory! The workers have indeed risen up to strike back against the bourgeoisie, who have stolen everything the workers ever earned, while relaxing in a world of privilege! The RED COMMUNIST revolution is at hand! Down with capitalism and the wealthy! We want to be dominated by elite, untouchable dictators instead! We deserve to have everything without earning ANY of it! We DEMAND that some people MUST DIE because they don't believe what we do! Listen closely. When you can't afford any more drugs, when you're sick and tired of being sick and tired, when it looks like suicide is the only option, remember that the REAL world will be here waiting - you can join us anytime. The United States is the greatest civilization that mankind has ever known, because of her people, and the liberty guaranteed to them in our Constitution.
THIS LIST IS ABSOLUTELY INSANE..... If this is truly what "OCCUPY" believes and promotes you might as well "pack it up now". THIS MOVEMENT HAS ALREADY BEEN CO-OPTED BY SOCIALISTS!!! GROW UP KIDS!!!
Yeah, way too many demands. They also seem way to Socialistic/Communistic. Plus... who is going to pay for everything that you are proposing? The Government? With what money?
I wonder if Lloyd J Hart will find his demands met in Cuba, more than the US. Or perhaps somewhere in the Euphoria created by smoking a pound of marijuana.
Folks, this is the result of the U.S. department of education running out education system for so many years. These protesters mean well but their ignorance makes me want to puke
Was Karl Marx reincarnated (I know it's against his beliefs) as a retarded 4th grader?Lloyd, youre a complete piece of slime. Thankfully there are people occupying Wall Street who don't share you're twisted views and ignorant, childish, intitlment like logic. The only hope for America is that yourself and the people that even slightly agree with your dangerous, for lack of better term, thinking, get a clue. You're no better than the dick heads who pay obummer and all of the other corrupt politicians do "force" their demands on unwilling Americans. You suck dude.
How about demand 14: making ignorance painful. Or You could build a time machine and go back to Germany in the 1930's , or try France or Cuba. No? Instead I recommended you get a clue. Socialism is a failed system. The only equality in it is the equal sharing of miseries, which anyone who willing accepts it completely deserves. Do yourselves a favor and go home and study. If you choose to use force, and that's what socialism is, you're no better than the thing (at least the thing you believe ) that you are standing against. Thankfully idiots like you are not taken seriously by anyone that's not a complete idiot. End corporatism. (you're problem) by ending the FED and drastically shrinking our incompetent, like many of you, government. If you don't get it, then you're just taking up public space.
LOL... laughable how people don't even have a basic understanding of economics. Plus, most of these people believe it was the failure of capitalism that brought us to this point.
IN FACT, the fallacy is that what our nation has now is NOT CAPITALISM, far from it. What we have is a quasi-corporatist form of socialism where BIG government and BIG business have teamed up to rob the middle-class, and the working poor.
So first, people, get your ISM's right. Second, the real source of the problem is that we have a "Federal" Reserve system made up of private banks printing and inflating our money supply. This quasi-central planning agency, IN FACT, is largely responsible for creating the bubble that burst. So, IN FACT, what you are seeing here in the USA and in Europe is a large-scale failure of social/financial engineering A.K.A SOCIALISM. Not a failure of capitalism.
If that were true, then Europe would be a veritable utopia by now. So PLEASE before you all start clamoring for more socialism or communism understand what it is that really caused this mess. Your basically, asking the arsonists to put out the fire they started.
And also, your hero Obama has more ties to Goldman Sach's than possibly any president in history.
You see, the money masters love socialist puppets in the White House. Why? Because they will borrow & print money to pay for their social programs or their WARS, then they guarantee the profits by forcing Americans to pay the new debt in the form of INFLATION & TAXES. Socialists make the bankers richer, while sticking us working people with the bill. That is A FACT.
The money masters & corporatists love socialists because they impose controls on the population, forcing them to purchase products/services from state-sanctioned monopolies. This is a FACT. BIG government leads to BIG corruption & BIG banks stealing the wealth of the people. Nathan Rothschild, of one of the most powerful banking families that still exists today once said:
"I care not what puppet is placed on the throne of England to rule the Empire... The man that controls Britain's money supply controls the British Empire. And I control the money supply."
Our money supply is controlled by private corporations masquerading as a "Federal" agency. Look it up, our Federal Reserve is NOT a branch of the Federal Government.
Abraham Lincoln said of central bankers:
“The money powers prey upon the nation in times of peace and conspire against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, and more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces as public enemies all who question its methods or throw light upon its crimes. I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe.”
There is not a single nation on this planet with a central bank that is not under the control of the bank. If you want to get rid of our perverted version of CAPITALISM then you first need to do away with central banking and central economic planning. Only then can society move forward, only then can we truly negotiate the need for taxation vs. the need to have social safety nets.
Vote for RON PAUL, he's the only candidate neither political parties like. That means he is probably the ONE you should think about voting for. Otherwise, you will just get another establishment puppet in the White House. That sadly, is A FACT!
We demand to be ruled over better!
Please, use the whip lightly.
These are communistic demands!
Demand 9. Unionize all labor.
Demand 8. End the Federal Reserve. Forgive all debts. Move to the Gold, Silver and Platinum backed currency. Outlaw credit not backed by collateral.
You live on Martha's Vineyard GFY
Demand 3. Congress shall make a law authorizing farm work as an alternative to combat service. Congress shall call a DRAFT and send as many conscientious objectors to do farm work as needed to fill jobs illegal aliens were doing.
Demand 1. Control prices. Reduce rents to 1970 levels. Screw property investors. The housing bubble burst. You lost. Accept it. Why should folks have to fork over $1300 a month for a 650 sqft 1 br/1ba? Let folks have a savings account. Let the women stay home to run the house while the man works. Stop the corporate greed
Demand 1: Throw sexist morons out of the apartments they don't want to pay for.
If you have the politics of a caveman, you should live in a cave.
Awe, my suggestion that women stay at offends you, then do us a favor and never marry. I've considered a cave, but I prefer living on my military retirement income, and $380 monthly rent and $35 monthly electric, in a 55+ community.
Supply & demand isn't sexist.
One of the effects of artificially inflating the supply of laborers by pushing women into the labor market was to reduce the value of labor, which in turn reduced wages, and has contributed to the vicious circle we're in today, where so many households have to have two incomes just to make ends meet.
Arguments for "increasing the number of laborers" by giving amnesty to illegal aliens does the same thing.
This is true foolishness.
Women were not "pushed" into the labor market at any point. Women have always performed valuable labor; as a result of the feminist movement's success, women gained more recognition for their labor and access to other (often more gainful) forms of employment.
Ending sexist discrimination did not "artificially inflate the supply of laborers;" the range of candidates for a given job had been artificially constrained by sexist discrimination.
Your claims here betray a shocking ignorance of economic history, reinforced by a gross disregard for the economic rights of women and the value of women's labor.
Supply and demand is not sexist. But your devaluation of women is.
Actually..... women joined the labor force (generally speaking) as a "call to duty" during WW2 when all the men were overseas fighting. Some stayed and some went back home when the war was over. But many employers saw the value of having women in the workplace and many women decided to stay as more opportunities opened to them.
How many times can you contradict yourself? Have any of these points ever worked in the world when applied? Do you understand Austrian economics? Do you understand why gold and silver is money, and fiat currency ( $20 an hour, just lol at you ) isnt? Do you realize the same people you are railing against want open borders as well? Do you understand why you cant forgive all debt? What about the debtor who took a chance to loan money to someone? Do you understand that we have basically free college today and that those newly graduated cant find a job because the labor market is saturated with people with worthless degrees? My guess is the person who wrote this has never worked one frigging day in their life. /end thread.
The way these demands are, we may as well repeal the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. Oh, wait, that means the kids making these demand, have no rights to make demands.
Open Borders my ass. We have open border gates for people to use. Don't tell me they can't use a gate. Get a passport. Can't afford a passport? Don't make it my problem. Fix Mexico. Build the fence, then build a wall.
Congratulations Comrad! Please enjoy the next depression that these "demands" would cause. You have no clue how economics work...anyone of these demands would drive this country right into the ground...but maybe that is what you want. IDIOTS!
Please enjoy the next depression that these "demands" would cause. You have no clue how economics work...anyone of these demands would drive this country right into the ground...but maybe that is what you want. IDIOTS!
"These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them..."
You're absolutely right about this. There will be so many unfilled jobs because NOBODY WILL CHOOSE TO WORK since your demand #3 ensures they will be paid a living wage regardless! ABSOLUTELY FUCKING BRILLIANT!
People don't behave like that. We need something productive to do so if unemployed people have the income they can go back to school or start a small business and with debt forgiveness capital will be readily available to lend to small businesses.
Lloyd, imagine that you are a banker. You let a bunch of people borrow money from you so that they can do things like go back to school or start a small business. Then a protester by the name of Mr. Hart come along and says that nobody has to pay you back for the money you let them borrow. Suppose you still have a little bit of money, and the next day I walk into your bank (which is some how miraculously still open) and ask to borrow some money. Given that everybody who borrowed from you before just kept what they borrowed, are you really going to give me a loan? If so, I can give you a mailing address where you can loan me all of your money. I promise to pay it back if I feel like it.
First of all, the fed will simply re-capitalize the banks to match existing deposits and impose 5 to 1 lending ratio on the bank with the further borrowed funds the banks borrow from the fed discount window.
So the fed needs to spend 2 trillion in stimulus, and pay living wages for all of the people that you are proposing firing, and pay off everybody's debt (I believe you said world wide, would that include our own debt? how does that work?), that is a lot of money. Have you come up with a way to fund this grandiose new economy of yours?
Debt forgiveness funds itself. Once debt forgiveness is complete the economy will be equity rich and borrowing against equity can begin again causing unprecedented growth and innovation.
You make a lot of leaps without any explanation as to how such things would happen.
To completely explain the concept would take a two hour lecture which I would be glad to do but I would need a sponsor.
I demand the lecture and I demand it to be free!
Find a sponsor. After all we live in a fee for service economy.
Maybe you could take the first step into this new society and show the big corporations on how things should be given away for free. I tell you what. I'll be the first person in line to listen for free. It'll be you and me Lloyd, pioneers in doing things for free.
A sponsor so that you can explain your new Utopian economy in which so many things are free, just not your own economic theory. Here I thought that you were some starry-eyed idealist that did not understand economics, when in actuality, you are just another guy trying to make a buck without having a conventional job. Congrats, I underestimated you and was foolish to think that you were anything other than a capitalist like the rest of us.
No one can live outside the system at this point. You can get close but you will have to pay property taxes where ever you have settled. So I am just as limited by the system as you are. If you want me to live the above demands before you will take them or me seriously you are just being obstructionist just like all you Rush Limbaugh, fox news who all live in fear of anything they tell you to be afraid of.
People can speak without charging their listeners. Also, I believe that the Amish are exempt from property taxes, so it is not impossible to live outside the system. I am not living in fear, if I was then I suppose I would be protesting with you.
But, with debt forgiveness, you're basically FUCKING over a bunch of people who loaned their capital to others. No new capital is being created! Dude, you seriously need to get a clue about basic economics.
Is this real? Was this written by a six year old?
Hardly anyone will get on board with the ridiculous nonsense contained in the above demands. If even some of these are really adapted and supported by a majority of the protesters, which I highly doubt, then you can count me out, and in fact I will vehemently oppose OWS, for whatever it's worth. I thought a broad spectrum of views were represented at OWS, with the general attitude being anti-corporation and anti-government, which is fantastic. But now this is going to be morphed into some pipe dream that I don't even think many liberals would support? I hope not. Here you go:
Demand one: End the FED Demand two: End the wars
Done. You now have the support of the majority of Americans and a chance at actually accomplishing something.
Lloyd, please look in your heart - 99% of Americans are not going to get behind this list, and posting it here does way more harm than good as it's picked up by the media as being OWS's 'platform'. Please take it down - you do not speak for everyone in this movement or even most of us. If you want a list to start with for discussion, how about Nader's four points? Or perhaps a single goal: End Corporate Personhood.
First of all, this is the forum for discussion. If you are fearful about how faux news is handling this then you have already surrendered.
OK then, if you're going to be an ass about it, you go out and ply your ill-informed trillion dollar here, trillion dollar there schtick, and you see how many of the 99% follow you. Good luck, because clearly you're on your own.
So sayeth SFCharles and so shall it be!
These are ridiclious demands. Sounds more to me as if college students and those who bought homes who signed contracts both for education and homes who did not have a gun pointed to their heads when they signed don't want to pay back their loans this is all this is about as well as the unions organizing you people are "useful idiots" they will use you then throw you away "useful idiots". Francis Fox Pivin you were all saying what she said copying her now come on that sounds childish "useful idiots". Pay your loans you signed for them or leave this country if you don't like it here I am sure Mexico will love to have you there.
These are ridiclious demands. Sounds more to me as if college students and those who bought homes who signed contracts both for education and homes who did not have a gun pointed to their heads when they signed don't want to pay back their loans this is all this is about as well as the unions organizing you people are "useful idiots" they will use you then throw you away "useful idiots". Francis Fox Pivin you were all saying what she said copying her now come on that sounds childish "useful idiots". Pay your loans you signed for them or leave this country if you don't like it here I am sure Mexico will love to have you there.
There should just be one demand ... significantly smaller government. Management of our medium of exchange is corrupt but only costs us about 4% in annual inflation. We can deal with that later when government is cut down to size.
Todd Marshall Plantersville, TX
I do not support these demands. I support the movement though, and we need to use this to focus as so many others have said. We need to agree as a whole on how to use the occupation of wall street to our advantage and NOT look impotent. Put this to the top if you agree with these terms instead: http://www.good.is/post/three-concrete-demands-to-hold-wall-street-accountable/ That's what I stand for, and I hope you do too!
Wow, thank you so much for being so ignorant and childish. You are amuzing, If you people understood anything about how money works you'd be laughing at yourselves as much as the rest of the country is. Money comes from someone producing something and selling it, you idiots want to create it from nothing. Quit smoking dope and voting for Obama and maybe you can start seeing some reality instead of the pathetic fantasy worlds you live in now.
You too can raise a group of protestors, here's all you need to do.
How could anyone give serious attention to this juvenile arrangement of vague, emotional, and short-sighted demands? This list is so ridiculous and so bad, I seriously have to wonder if you're not just astroturfing on behalf of frightened investment bankers.
Lloyd, do you have a job? You sound like a really passionate guy with a knack for analysis and impatience with things that do not work. I certainly disagree with you about what the problems are and what the solutions are, but I wish you well in your search.
For example, to "restore" a living wage (have we ever had one?), we would have to decide what that wage will be. You say $20/hr, but that will just re-settle the scales at a new equilibrium.
I rather like my health insurance, and that for my son. I work hard, I make less than $100,000/yr, and I do not want my insurance to be legislated away.
Living wage again, regardless of employment? From whom will this wage be drawn, if not from somewhere that agrees with you about the value of the work?
From whom will this college education be drawn? Will professors and aides be paid for their work? What about those who build the campus buildings?
We are already seeing a fast track to shutting down oil and building out solar. The problem is that the oil jobs are going away by tens of thousands, and solar does not work--it never will.
Trillion here, trillion there. We'll talk about these if we get our trillions back under control.
Race is already covered under an amendment, and one reason the ERA has never re-surfaced is that it already exists in statutory and regulatory authority.
The Open Borders idea you have, whether it will work or not, is wholly incompatible with a mandated living wage, free healthcare, free education, abolition of debt and elimination of credit reporting. That is, unless all of the above ideas are enforced (because cheating would ruin it) across the whole world. Are you really pushing for world dominance? That is what it would take.
Elections: We can work on this, but I shudder to think what other place we should try to emulate without losing ground.
Wiping out debt would create losers of those who produce and winners of those who consume. If such a thing were to happen for real, just once, it would certainly happen again, right? This means that there would be no more lending, and money would stay in the hand it comes to first. There would be no expansion of business, no start-ups for producers (say agrarian communities needing a new well to become more productive and increase their standard of living, etc). It's just not a serious idea, and for the reasons I've mentioned.
Credit reporting, well sure, if there's no more credit, trust me, there will be no more reporting agency.
Your thirteen is just card-check, right? I'm not a fan, but I'm pretty sure that we both know each others' arguments by heart.
Buddy, I'm as staunch a capitalist conservative as I can be, and I believe in our Republic, imperilled though it may be. I have responded with disagreement but also with respect, because what our American problems need are American solutions. This nation remains the envy of the world, and for good reason, even if we lose sight of that fact at times.
I don't want you defeated, and I don't want you spending the nights on the street. I want you happy and contributing to an American Dream that you feel pride in sharing.
Take care. Haakon B. Dahl
What you have written here displays monumental ignorance of how most western democracies work including Canada just north of here where I grew up. In fact, after living here for twenty years I have discovered that conservative Americans seem to proud of their ignorance.
Uh, I don't know where you think I'm from, and is there a particular aspect of my ignorance you would like to address?
You are making a fundamental mistake. You are assuming that these people are capable of reasoning.
But if you look at both the list of demands put together by just one of them (remember, the occupy wall street crowd is utterly without a cause, has no demands, purpose or goal . . . the above list is the product of just one person), and then look at the replies to reasoned arguments against these demands, you'll see nothing more than magical thinking and personal attack.
These people are just another kind of "faith and faith alone" religious extremists.
Sorry if I widdle on your shoes but how many centuries do you want to occupy wall street? Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment: Even here, in "socialistic" germany that discussion got grounded pretty fast. And two trillion dollars.
I mean, if there was a giant, laser bristling flying saucer overshadowing New York, blaring this from huge speakers, then this might work.
But all this demanded by a few thousand people having a party in a public space?
No way.
However, if you really want to spend your life demanding this, here's a suggestion for a road map:
Go for electoral reform first. Forget about paper vs. electrons, demand a voting system that breaks the stranglehold of the two big parties. Electors will have to go for a start. So does Gerrymandering. Get smart on that, there sure is literature on this. You've got some bright people over there, and universities do research on it. Google Erik Maskin if you need a pro.
Then found your own party and campaign on the rest of your demands. That way you won't go around the democratic process and will have a lot more legitimacy.
Actually they have guaranteed income in Germany.
I am from germany. What kind of guarantee do you have in mind? Lots of jobs are a) "400€" jobs, needing a social security top-up. Definitely no "living wage". b) plain illegal, in construction and vegetable harvesting, which might be "living wages" in poland (where these workers come from, much like yours from mexico), but definitely no living wage in germany. And these people live in containers. There's no social security, much less pension contributions or health care in these jobs. The rest, like mine isn't more guaranteed than any other. Ok, notice periods here are longer but the cost is that it's much harder to get a contract.
However, that wasn't the point of my posting. The things you put on the list are way bigger than the US, much too unpredictable to risk your desired amount of money in your desired time frame and too much spur-of-the-moment. Sorry 'bout that.
Therefore I think that you still have a long way to go in order to be taken seriously by the people that actually decide about society-changing demands like yours. Have you tried to structure your demands and maybe create sub movements?
One for the democrats (electoral reform and more democracy), one for the environmentalists (the renewable stuff and carbon cap-and-trade) and one for the capitalists (reinstation of the glass-steagall act, for instance). Then you can see how much support you get for each issue group.
However, single-issue-movements or parties (like the early "greens" in germany) make sense only in an electoral system that gives them a chance. So, better democracy is, im my humble opinion, the biggie. If you want the people's power behind you, you have to give them power.
Respect the Rights of Nature (end corporate commodification of the planet)
[Removed]
"Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment. Demand four: Free college education."
That's as far as I could get before feeling compelled to reply. Allow me to say this --> "FUCK YOU!!!!" I WILL NOT pay for your "living wage regardless of employment" nor your free college education. These are not rights. Your supposed "right to an education and/or living wage" doesn't exist because it presupposes the violation of MY rights -- namely, my right to my fucking property.
And this: "Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr." Do you even realize how many more people this would put out of work? Oh, I know. You'll enforce it through government force. But that doesn't stop employers from closing their doors because they can no longer afford to do business thanks to your stupid fucking legislation.
Know this. I am here and I will fight you and your collectivist philosophy to the death.
These proposals constitute a fraction of what the US spends on war and would stimulate the economy far better, but you won't fight the military industrial complex to the death. You'll just make Charlton Hestonesque threats at some naive kid with intentions nobler than yours.
IT'S A MAD HOUSE! A MAD HOUSE!
Get your stinkin' paws off me you damn ape!
Uh oh. This guy might have a gun. Maybe he knows where the hostages are.
"..my right to my f**king property." ?
Nature doesn't allow any living being to claim inalienable right to the place it lives. Humans as a group have agreed to property rights so as to prevent disputes/fights between individuals. So no human can claim right to any property. STFU!
See that; you contradicted yourself in the space of your last two sentences - nicely done! Come back when you're out of the third grade and can have an intelligent conversation.
Sure, let me know if you need to learn some basics.
littleg, you are actually a moron.
Buddy, money is arbitrary. Property is very real. If you and I are hungry, and I kill a squirrel to eat, that's my property. If we should come to an agreement where you exchange something for half of the meal, that;s money. I'm afraid there's no retreat into "it's all just a social construct" when core values are on the line. When it really matters, nothing is a social construct.
Where are core our Core values ?! in dreams..
What you value most is oxygen. After that temperature. Then water, food, shelter, and so forth. Mess with a person's access to these things and you will assuredly see what is important.
Well you're just an idiot then.
Sure, I am a happy idiot.
Not for long- you don't even have an unalienable right to the place you live! Homelessness and happiness don't usually go together
How do you know ? Ask a buddhist/Saint who has given up all attachments in life.
Overcome your fear of homelessness first ! This earth is your home, so is everybody's.
People can be happy without a home, without stuff. That's not the critical point to property rights.
What you do own is your labor, our talents, our willingness to trade them. They are what you spend your time on, and as your days add up, it's your life. You are trading part of your life for the labor you provide, and you do own your life.
So in comes money. Money, and the stuff it buys you (food, shelter), are both secondary effects of how much of your life/talents you have traded to another person in a fair trade (in a free market system WITHOUT govt interference).
so, when people talk about their rights to property, it is merely because it was traded for, in good faith, based on a portion of that person's life he gave up to have it. He has a right to his life, and since he traded that labor for something, he know has a legitimate right to that which he traded for.
Unfortunately, the author of these demands thinks some people are born into this world, and have an obligation to trade their life so that someone else can get stuff. I see nothing moral, fair, or sustainable in that model. It will never work, because if I'm trading my life so you can eat well, I will just stop my labor. I trade my life so I, and those I care to share with, can eat.
And thus, you take the role of a god because you are determining who you are to share with. I'll let God judge a man/woman who allows another to starve when he/she has plenty to share.
It is not a wonder why churches are in high demand.
At last. Enlightenment. It's refreshing, isn't it?
Good because there are more of us than are of you and we will win.
Depends on how you plan to fight.
LloydJHart (Vineyard Haven, MA) 0 points 1 day ago
"Good because there are more of us than are of you and we will win."
Actually, there are less of you. And if you are trying to push demands that the populace does not agree with, then you are not serving 'the people', you are enforcing your will on others, i.e., a despot. Oh, you may be trying to work behind the scenes, but you are still not a lover of the freedoms of others, you want the world your way and the population be damned. Free men will continue to rise up against such tyranny as your demands suggest.
Keep f@#$ing that chicken, bub.
Hilarious. You DO realize that the majority of Americans consider themselves as "Conservative" or "Independent with conservative beliefs" and the ideas you express (free college education and living wage regardless of employment) clash so strongly with even moderately conservative values that any attempt to push these ideas through congress would be dead upon arrival? The only way you could force "universal debt forgiveness" on the American people is through force. Thankfully, us conservatives own the guns.
And you're so fucking stupid the ultra rich who play you like a fiddle will pit you and your kids in a civil war against another armed segment of society. Every conservative is such a tough guy with their penis replacements until they realize they are being overrun by the poor or roving gangs. Then say bye-bye to family because mama never taught her little boy to share.
Even conservative Americans are drowning in debt. I doubt all conservatives are so blind in their faith in capitalism that they would reject their own economic relief.
Interestingly, conservatives statistically are the most charitable citizens in the US. We love sharing, we just want to have the free choice to share. I'm guessing that you are a pro-choice lefty. Why not be pro-choice in economic issues? I do not want the government to force me to give economically worthless people my money. I would, however, like to help the poor through private charities that seek (unlike the government) to turn economically worthless people into productive members of society.
Oh and way to both curse and talk about us conservatives' penis size in one post. Really added value to your argument.
Thankfully people have woken up to the danger from the Left’s version of National Socialism.
This little pathetic display of theirs is just a last gasp.
Take a look at their “Demand” list – most of it is straight out of the Democrat’s 2008 campaign.
This is just their little temper tantrum at not getting their way.
Don't worry, ReardenMetal, you're not alone. There are plenty of sane people left who understand that you simply cannot violate economic laws. Wealth doesn't grow on trees (even if fiat money does) and demanding that everyone get everything is completely unfeasible.
Nevertheless, I am horrified and bemused at this list. Horrified that anyone could think it is attainable, and bemused because, well, anyone would think that it is attainable.
+1000
Why not everybody get's the same college education based on their merit. The difference is each student will pay fees as much as he can afford. Say a middle class kid whose parents are factory workers (earning 60K per year) will pay 30K for his college education, while a millionaire's kid will pay 100K for the same education. What's wrong with that ?
Hey, how about you pay $200/gallon of gas and your neighbor only pays $1/gallon - cool?
If he can afford why not ? But how do shop owner know who can afford how much ? :)
What I said is perfectly fair. Period.
I absolutely agree . . . college education is important and should be made accessible and affordable to all. It will make our economy and country stronger.
The reason college education isn't affordable is because the govt started pumping out grants and loans way more than in previous decades. The inflation of college prices went up as a direct effect, and higher by comparison than oil and other costs. Everytime the govt tries to 'help' by giving people stuff, it will screw the market up. Universities just figured, 'hey, well Uncle Sam is just throwing money around, we better get ours!" And as a result, we have all these folks upset at prices, and wanting to walk away from loans (that nobody forced them to take). So they push even farther down the entitlement path. Economies work much better when you stop trying to give everybody everything, and keep the govt out of it.
I hate to break it to you hun, but life is NOT fair - nor was it ever meant to be fair.
I may be able to afford a $30K car but it doesn't mean I'm going to PAY $30K for it when I can get the same car for $15K
What nation are you from? You sound like a 3 yr old having a tantrum cuz he can't ride his bike around the block like his older brother who's 12yrs old can. SHEESH!
There is a difference between your car and an education. You can live without a car, but you can't without an education. Understand the difference between an opportunity and an entitlement.
I DO live without an education - I'm a HS drop-out - and I KNOW the difference between opportunity and entitlement. I expect nothing from the govt other than to protect my rights and protect my borders and to coin my money. I've never had a problem getting a job/having a career. What I refuse to live with is govt public servants continually attempting to infringe upon my rights, continually attempting me to waive my rights for privileges, and continually committing Treason by not abiding their Oath.
Very well said.
Why target public servants ? Crooks are everywhere in corporations and in govt. I want the govt to take care of the poor, needy and the people who have one or other form of disabilities. I don't want any of these persons to beg for charity.
Why target public servants? Because they gave an Oath to uphold, support, and defend the constitution. If you want the poor, needy, disabled to be taken care of open your house to them. Do not force me to 'take care of them' via govt. There are plenty of charities for various people so there is no need for them to beg for it. When I choose to assist someone, I will do so without infringing upon the rights/property of others.
What's the guarantee of Charity to help the poor and needy ? Can you guarantee ?
The guarantee is that we are each Personally Responsible for our own lives/liberty/property. Google charity for poor etc and you will find plenty of resources. Here's just one example - they feed 2 million people each day - that's just ONE charity! http://www.foodforthepoor.org/
I personally support the works of http://www.womenforwomen.org/
Keep your fend for yourself ideology to yourself. I don't need it and so do many others. I'm tired of that crap.
Keep your socialism (govt mandated voluntaryism), move to a country where that participates in it. I don't need and many more don't want it. You certainly do NOT understand what it truly means to be Free nor what it takes to be a real-life adult.
Sometimes people need a hand-up, however people never need a hand-out. I'm sure you're aware of the "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life" saying. It's the same thing.
"Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life
lol
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and he wants beach front property
What happens if the guy is a vegan?
calcium enriched soy through genetics
Then teach him how to catch & prepare seaweed ... sheesh
yep
The fact of the matter is 70% of the citizens in this country want Social security and Medicare (as per all non partisan polls). This is democracy, we decide what we want. So, good luck with your ideology.
Not even close. SS is taken from us by force, used interest free for a period of decades by crooks with no accountability (congress), then doled back to you in just enough $$ to keep you eating cat food in your retirement years. Ya, 70% are smart enough to say we'll invest it on our own, thanks anyway. Congress needs to quite living off the illegal slush fund program.
I don't know what you are complaining about. What's wrong with SS ? It's just like any other tax. Only in this case, you will get it back during your retirement.
But there is a constitution. Well, there is supposed to be. It is supposed to define what "rights" people have, to keep the majority from steamrolling the minority. And I have a right not to pay into a retirement account for myself if I desire not to. It doesn't matter if 99 percent of the people want such and such, if it violates my rights then it is unconstitutional. If the majority amends the constitution, as is legally required to instate a program such as this, then I will shut up about having my rights violated as social security will qualify as a constitutional right.
No, taxes are not illegal. It's already in the constitution.
I didn't say taxes were illegal. Yes it is in the constitution. What is not in the constitution is forcing me to pay into a retirement account for myself.
The current constitution has given full powers for the senate and congress to make laws for united states. So, if there is a rule that is made for everybody, there is no exception without a penalty.
I don't think, you need to be worried about your rights being violated in a true democracy. The reason is the majority will act in good faith and take into account the interest of minority.
In this case, let's say the minority is the rich people and the majority (poor and middle class) decide to tax the rich exclusively, I would argue that it is fair as the rich became rich by extracting this money from the majority and this inequality correction is in the country's interest. Does it harm the minority ? I don't see any harm (unless the rich are taxed at 100%, which is not going to happen) except that their greed is kept in check.
"I don't think, you need to be worried about your rights being violated in a true democracy. The reason is the majority will act in good faith and take into account the interest of minority."
Ask the blacks during the 1800s if their rights were violated by the majority.
Do you want to live in 19th century still or you want to live in 21st century ? We have a black man as the president of United States!
Are you sure it is a FACT that 70% want Social Security and Medicare)? I have yet to meet someone who is NOT opposed to paying into such mandated voluntary insurance govt schemes. Everyone I've met would rather keep those funds, invest/save them as they wish.
But then again, I tend to spend my time with Liberty minded folks; you know, those who desire and accept Personal Responsibility.
And this is NOT a democracy - we have a Constitutional Republic. Please read the Constitution - you will see democracy is not mentioned once.
"Are you sure it is a FACT that 70% want Social Security and Medicare?" Do a simple google search or ask the tea party common people. They will let you know. There is quite a bit of difference between personal responsibility and "fend for yourself". Talk to liberals and mix of libertarian and liberal like me. Constitution is just a rule book and there is always scope for improvement.
ROFLMAO ... Constitution is NOT "just a rule book" ... It IS the Law of the Land. Your uneducated and inaccurate comment is just about the funniest thing I've heard all week! ROFLMAO
What are you talking about!!! Ofcourse it's a rule book!!! Haven't you seen the 28th Amendment? "XP can also be lost in some circumstances, such as encounters with creatures that drain life energy, or by use of certain magical powers that require payment of an XP cost." C'mon man!
Yes it is the law of the land, but it happens that we have changed it a few times. It's a living document. So there is room for improvement, things aren't exactly what I would call perfect.
I'm not sure what's funny about my comment. :)
Article. I. Section 1. of US Constitution, "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives."
The congress and senate is a joke today totally controlled by the wealthy donors and corporations. This is what you may want. The people supporting occupywallstreet are fed up of this representative democracy, we want direct democracy.
Your law of the land is the biggest joke today. Grow up!
Implement two term limits on all elected offices. This limits the ability of wealthy donors and corporations to buy long-term cronies with political power.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/#comment-23489
The issue with direct democracy is the sheer size of the vote. That's the purpose of the electoral college system. Can you imagine if 250 million people had to read every bill and vote on it? It just would get hosed.
The up-shot of a direct democracy is that it'd be impossible to buy out only 100 members because there'd be millions. However, commercials can be very persuasive.
I am just glad that it's a bicameral system with an Executive Branch check and balance.
I am in no way in support of this "corporate personhood" bullshit that I am hearing. THAT IS SO WRONG! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood
If you don't think corporations deserve rights, then why should they be taxed to protect them?
We got to think out of the box. We need to reduce the size of the federal government to bare minimum. If we go for distributed and local governments automatically these bills will reduce in size.
For example, let the whole country decide what should be a uniform income tax for the whole country. We don't want income tax to be different in different states as this will mostly cause chaos. This tax money will be collected and spent at the state level only. The federal govt shouldn't collect any taxes what so ever. The federal govt can charge a fee to state government for some service they provide like border secuirty and national defense etc.
We have the technology today using which people can decide what policies they want in an instant. We can ban all commercials/unsolicited ads on proposed bills if that is a distraction in direct democracy. Bottom line is power to people and bills are written and validated like Wikipedia using crowd-sourcing. Once we have a draft bill, we will put it on the ballot and then let the people discuss with their friends and family (people who they trust or preferably read the bill which is estimated to be small in size because it's for state/local level) and vote on it. Once there is 51% support for a bill then it is passed. The advantage with direct democracy is we can have a trial period for any new law for 3 to 6 months. If it is not performing well and people are not happy with it, it can be trashed immediately.
I see direct democracy as a purely technical problem which can be easily solved using out of box ideas and some tools like computers, smartphones and software.
Except you don't get a free computer or smartphone outside of the womb.
And hackers can always hijack/disable/circumvent a web portal.
And minimizing the gov't has worked in the past. I guess we could always have an emperor again, which isn't too far from what we currently have with the 1%.
You can use a normal telephone also to vote, you don't always need a computer or a smartphone if you don't have one. Hackers can't hijack all websites though.
I guess you see glass as half empty, while I see it as half full.
College is not an entitlement. My father dropped out of 8th grade to support his parents, learned a trade, and through hard work, started his own business that employed a number of people throughout the years. He chose to hire and train people that didn't have the best "educational pedigree" so that he could show them they could succeed. A few of them opened up their own businesses as a result, and he was proud of all of them.
I myself dropped out of high school, went back and got my GED. I have virtually no college, but I studied and learned on my own, and I now make six figures annually.
The only entitlement I expect is for our government to live under the confines of our great United States Constitution. Thoreau was right: "That government is best which governs least".
I never said college. God has given you the ability to work hard and earn your own living and do well. Wish you all the best! But realize, that god doesn't give every one the same ability.
I want every individual irrespective or race, religion and economic status to have access to free or affordable (as much only as they can afford) education till 10th grade. Free or affordable education is not something the private schools would want to do. So yes, we need public schools with some reforms to maintain quality of education without focus on scores and grading. If somebody wants to drop out, its his/her personal choice.
I want small government too. But I want the government to collect taxes and support the poor and the needy, instead of the needy looking for some charity and waiting for help.
I see you honor the constitution, then learn to honor the "General welfare" phrase mentioned many times in our constitution.
Authoritative. I like it. Just declare "I'm right" and proceed to mutilate the English language. Droll.
it makes it pointless to aspire to attain any sort of wealth whatsoever. why strive to do better when living quality is the same? why would an engineer keep his job if he could be living just the same with a simpler, comparatively low stress job like a clerk?
"Why not everybody get's" stopped me cold and I couldn't go past it. Please, please tell me you're not in college.
Agreed, these nut jobs obviously have enthusiasm for change but have no clue what they want or how to get it. Every right implys an obligation, mindless protesters remember that, we are sick of paying for your ideals.
This is a powerful display of economic ignorance (except #9, which is the only smart thing on the list). Thanks for the laugh, Lloyd!
All you republicans are silly. All you want is to pursue your generic American dream of 10 lamborghinis and lobster dinners. Such greed. You can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps when the corporations make it unfair.
Materialism isn't the way. If the world was fair, every person would live in a very small house with only our basic needs met. All we need is each other. We can have a good time in life by holding hands, celebrating our cultures and embracing our differences. We don't need money. Down with the financial system!
I have a list of new world rules that everyone should follow:
1) Men should start listening to women and stop just wanting sex from them. Let women have their way! They are the mothers to all.
2) Men should always respect women even when they do something bad.
3) Stop producing money. Instead, people just give what they produce. We all help each other out. Food and shelter are a right, not a privilege bought by money. The corporations control the IMF with their secret headquarters in Chuck E. Cheese's - it's a front to manipulate the world banks with gold investments. They are secretly planning to use poison in their pizza to gain control of your mind and make you spend more money on food and shelter, thus keeping you in economic slavery.
4) Love one another despite our differences.
5) Factories should stop polluting and start making things for free. It is a crime to charge for goods. The nuclear power plants poisoning everyone should be closed forever.
6) Free iPods and cheese for everyone.
7) A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage.
8) All men donate sperm to ensure the survival of the species, then subsequently undergo castration and penis removal to stop world violence and increase respect for women.
9) Ban heavy metal, because the loudness promotes violence.
Let's join hands and sing in protest, sisters and un-sisters!
Wow. I can't tell if this list is serious or a joke! FYI - one of the best ways to start a movement is to lead by example... I assume you have already been castrated? In reference to #6 - This won't work for vegans In reference to #7 - This will insult vegans and vegetarians... and cars pollute the air too.
PS - Drugs are bad.........
Thanks for proving that you Americans are the dumbest shits on the planet. You've actually beaten the Germans. Congratulations.
By the way, you idiots, you may want to look into EU countries like Germany, UK or Austria, so called "rich countries" and you will see that your BS isn't working. National debts are rising, spending is out of control, despite criminally high taxes for EVERYONE. Not like in the US, where people like you don't pay income tax. Everyone working in Germany or Austria pays income tax. And despite all of this, the money is not enough. College education is free in Austria, now the colleges are bankrupt and there are too many students studying useless crap.
Don't whine at me because you don't geta job with your Master in deep sea psychology. Should have studied proper medicine or engineering. That's your own damn fault.
But sure, blame the banks for it. It's the banks's fault that the German government has been spending like crazy for 40 years, right?
You people are morons, nothing else. Jealous, lazy little shits. You make me glad I'm not American.
Although I agree with the OWS movement, I also agree with others here who feel that this list of demands needs to be revised, as it is currently so unrealistic that it is causing people to mock the movement instead of taking it seriously.
Ending Freetrade, bringing jobs back home where goods are made by people being paid a fair wage is good, as is instituting a single payer healthcare system are important. I think OWS should also demand reversion of last year's ruling that corporations are people. While a living wage needs to be re-evaluated and minimum wage surely needs to be raised, $20 per hour is totally unrealistic.
Wiping out all debt is also unrealistic. Without a doubt, banks and lenders need to be prevented from the sort of usury they've been guilty of (ridiculously high interest rates, sub prime loans, etc), but borrowing and lending aren't inherently evil unless the terms are unfair.
Streamlining this list in a way that's more focused and realistic is necessary for this movement to gain traction and be taken seriously. Let's not let them label us as a bunch of "hippies" with pipe dreams. Serious wrongs need to be redressed but in order for that to happen we need to gather our collective intellect, knowledge and experience and propose real, workable solutions. I have no doubt that we are capable of doing just that, and when we do, it will be harder for people to ignore this movement.
Given the length of this page, it sounds like time that the movement delegated a group of respected members to represent them in deciding on a list of demands. In a way, this means creating your own government. You must create your own organizational system for your decision making. I don't believe hardly anybody will read through this whole list of posts.. way too long. Nobody has time to hear the opinions of everybody else, there are just too many people in the world. Perhaps have a vote on the individual demands? The list needs to be an evolving document. Think of yourselves as being in the process of creating a new world government. What rules must govern this new grass-routes world order?
Way too many demands that have nothing to do with wall street, FOCUS
1.Prosecute wall street criminals
just these 3 simple things would be a MAJOR start!!!
ps love the passion!! XO
I agree with prosecuting the criminals holding the majority of executive positions in the financial industry.
How about Wachovia, that admitted in court to laundering drug money? How about CITI execs, who have testified under oath that they knowingly sold defective loans. That would fall under the heading of "Fraud." How about those who've committed perjury? Bank execs have admitted over 100,000 instances of it in the last 10 years, by withdrawing perjured affidavits once they were caught doing it. The list of criminal acts by the financial industry is HUGE...
Why aren't they being prosecuted? Because they are completely in collusion with the government.
As to lobbying & campaign contributions? Trying to restrict them is likely to be counterproductive.
Instead, I think all restrictions should be lifted, and every politician should be forced to make every contribution & donor public.
Microsoft gave politican X $5 million? OK, now you know before you vote for that person who owns them...
Why aren't they being prosecuted? Because they are completely in collusion with the government.
I have no doubt that this is going on. So for the OWS crowd, how does protesting capitalism in general or Wall St. in particular encourage a clean government?
Instead, I think all restrictions should be lifted, and every politician should be forced to make every contribution & donor public.
What will stop these outed donors from being targeted by supporters of the opposition? Wouldn't the list of donors be a ready-made enemies list for someone (it only takes one) to abuse?
Microsoft gave politican X $5 million? OK, now you know before you vote for that person who owns them...
This kind of information is already available. For Microsoft in particular: http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toprecips.php?id=D000000115&cycle=2012
Demand fourteen: Ban all firearms in America except for loyalty proven police and military. Create a 30 day turn in amnesty period, else face life in prison. Confiscate all gunsmithing, manufacturing, reloading, and shooting equipment. Jail firearms manufactures pending trial at the UN for genocide on minorities. Destroy all collections, clubs, social groups, and museum firearms, even if "de-milled". Put any owner of an assault weapon in re-education camps. We cannot get the capitalists and Christians to do our will until we disarm them. Our weapons are truth and the people, their weapons are guns and racism.
What is it with the modern left and firearms bans? Firearms are a necessary tool of the leftist cause. It shows how naive the pacifist faction of the left has become. People wonder why the right-wingers have made strides in recent years; they're militant and showing it. What ever happened to the days of the Black Panthers? People became soft. I own "assault" weapons (as Clinton would classify them) and I am a far-leftist. How do you explain that? My "truth" won't prevent my death; a weapon can.
I don't get why so many leftists these days react to firearms like a little girl to seeing a mouse - "EEK! Get it away from me! I'm scaaaared!" W.T.F.
How do you lot think we beat the racist scumbags with in the Civil War? Or the Nazis back in the 1940's? Geez our generation is a bunch of pansies!
edit: As for the Black Panthers...they're now little more than a gang with a political front. Discount them. MLK wouldn't give those perpetual teenagers the time of day if he were still alive.
yeah, what a great idea! let's give the government a monopoly on weaponry, too, so that we have no way to defend ourselves against initiations of physical force! you're a genius!
Of course in reality shotguns and hunting rifles don't work so well against tanks and Predator drones and machine guns...but you might as well have your noisy security blankets. It really isn't worth the trouble and we have more important things to do.
Pesky 2nd Amendment
Mao Zedong approves this message. (No word yet from his 70 million victims, but I'm sure they'd agree)
"We cannot get the capitalists and Christians to do our will until we disarm them."
The Left in a nutshell.
-- or --
It's not fascism when we do it!
OFF WITH THEIR HEADS !
Wow - Hilter, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot would be proud of you. Do you plan to do this yourself or let your brown shirts do your dirty work for you as you don't have the balls to back up your words? If you were to try this in my home I'd shoot you through the head. Molon labe.
Wow, another completely ignorant of the TRUE facts about gun owners and the history of countries that have done exactly what you propose. What do you think would really happen if all of a sudden the only people with guns were the police and government? (Wait, they're one in the same).
First, kiss any right good bye that you feel you are owed. Second, don't speak your mind about the unethical/illegal actions of your government or you will disappear. Third, don't count on the police or government to make it to your house in time to stop your wife and daughters from possibly being raped and then shot to death by that criminal who figures "WTF, I'll end up in prison for life anyways, might as well enjoy myself with my gun that YOU DON'T HAVE!"
And on and on and on. Look up the statistics on actual gun fatalities and crimes. Look at who ACTUALLY pulls most of these incidents off. Are they legitimate gun owners? In fact, what you and those like you always want to overlook, they are not. Those people are truly CRIMINALS! Wow, what a concept. So let's just disarm the innocent and allow them to be even more defenseless. Cool. Well thought out plan. Ignorance is bliss until you need that f'ing gun.
You wrote: "We cannot get the capitalists and Christians to do our will ..." A perfect example of the totalitarian mind.
JT
Hey sport, you’re in good company:
Stalin: ‘If the opposition disarms, well and good. If it refuses to disarm, we shall disarm it ourselves.’
Stalin: ‘We don't let them have ideas. Why would we let them have guns?’
Mao Tse Tung ‘All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party.’
Vladimir Lenin ‘ One man with a gun can control 100 without one.’
Vladimir Lenin ‘A system of licensing and registration is the perfect device to deny gun ownership to the bourgeoisie.’
Nancy Pelosi ‘We want them registered’
After all, when you want good old fashioned genocide, the best place to start would be taking the people’s way of fighting off the government.
We'll never get real reform when the teabaggers can just threaten to kill everyone like they do at their rallies.
They need to be stripped of their weapons so that reformers can do their job without being assassinated like MLK and Bobby Kennedy.
And you really watch way too much brain washing propaganda on TV Bob. What 'tea party' people have threatened to kill everyone? What rally were you attending to witness this? I love it when the uneducated believe the complete and utter rubbish spoon fed to them in order to control how they vote.
Our government killed those men not 'tea party' members. Those men started to gain too much power with the people so they had to be made examples of. Guns in the hands of true Americans is what has kept you free to un-educate yourself about guns. You should be thankful to them that you can make unfounded and untrue statements like you have here without reprimand. That's your freedom provided by the millions who have died before you for you and your rights to be plain ignorant of the truths.
I have never seen a teabag kill anyone. I have never even heard a teabag speak. Are the teabags speaking to you, SpongeBob?
Sponge bob - Here are some fun facts for you.
MLK (I assume you mean Martin Luther King) was a Republican. The KKK was started by Democrats who wanted to keep the blacks as slaves. They became the strong arm of the Democratic party for over 50 years. The Democrats were all about segregation and the Republicans fought for equality. Of course you do realize this was during the time of JFK...
Tea Party supporters have rallies and organized gatherings. Liberals have mobs who destroy and vandalize property while shouting phrases that make no sense (and if the actually do make sense, they are being shouted at the wrong people), and condoning violence towards those they shout at.
Do your research before spouting useless nonsense.
Sponge bob is afraid of the boogeyman, in this case he calls the teabaggers, pick whatever name you like but your living in fear of some fantasy person conjured up in your head by the media.
One word for you, SpongeBobBrainless:
Waco.
It was to future generations of violent rightwingers what Kent State was to Vietnam protesters: a reminder, written in blood, saying "the military can come kick your sorry keisters at will; and your movement will amount to no more than a freshly-painted set of kill markers on our guns".
So save your fantasies for your fellow bed-wetting babies who see a redneck with a shotgun behind every tree.