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Forum Post: Picture of Libya before & after: "This is what DEMOCRACY looks like"

Posted 6 years ago on Oct. 21, 2011, 12:33 a.m. EST by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD
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64 Comments

64 Comments


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[-] 3 points by Rmarks1701 (103) 6 years ago

You know it is easy to sit here and say "oh my just look at how bad it is now" but the truth is that often the overthrow of dictatorships, and the re-birth of a nation into a democratic nation where people have a voice is often a painful and violent one. Just look at the destruction caused by the war of independence, and then the civil war, even the civil rights movement of the 60's. All of them had their destructive moments, and costs.

[-] 2 points by kazoo55 (195) from Rijs, FR 5 years ago

Restoring democracy in Libya was not what this illegal war was about. Not at all, this is the filthy stinking lie that the MSM fed us. This is just another dirty resource-war: oil, water at the cost of thousands of lives and the destruction of the infrastructure of this land.

Now the vultures come in and tear the carcass apart. BTW, the same vultures OWS is opposing. So please keep this crap to yourself, we're not buying it.

[-] 0 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

Watch this news report on the real reasons for why we invaded Libya.

And no, it's not necessarily oil either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35_Ai6EsMU&feature=related

[-] 2 points by Rmarks1701 (103) 6 years ago

We never actually invaded Libya. There were no large scale troop deployments to Libya. No NATO Tanks in the streets of Libya.

In fact the only NATO involvements in Libya were: Bombing Campaign, Observers, Special forces for recon and targeting (though we are not supposed to know about that), and advice for the NTC.

Now if you are on about the highly questionable invasion of Iraq....That is a differant kettle of fish entirely.

[-] 2 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

What about Yemen, Syria, Pakistan, and now Uganda? Have you been hearing all of the run-up to attacking Iran? Every Repub candidate is falling all over themselves to condemn Iran and paint them as the next evil nuclear bogeyman (except RP).

Not to mention special-ops in how many countries - that's right, also Somalia. http://www.salon.com/2011/08/04/secert_american_wars/

[-] 1 points by dankpoet (425) 6 years ago

Informative article thanks.

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

de nada.

[-] 0 points by Rmarks1701 (103) 6 years ago

Personally, I think war with Iran is all but inevitable. I do not wish to see it, and I would hate for it to happen. If war with Iran does happen it is because sanctions and diplomacy have failed. Now as to why, there is enough evidence from various world governments to suggest that Iran is a danger to world peace. There is enough evidence from various world governments that Iran does in fact sponsor terrorism, wishes to see ALL Jews eradicated, and other highly disturbing things. Considering that Iran is like this, what do you suggest we do?

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

Unfortunately, I think war with Iran is inevitable, too. Which is a crying shame, because I really think this is the tipping point to WW3.

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

You may think this is quite radical, but I see the United States as the biggest danger to world peace.

How many countries are we bombing right now? Where is the outrage in OWS about how much money we're spending killing our young people and civilians in all of those countries?

We've never lived in a war zone (I'm assuming you're an American, too). We have never watched our homes and families be blown up. We haven't had to watch babies being born poisoned by foreign depleted uranium bombs. We haven't been occupied by a foreign power for the last 10 yrs. Heck we haven't been occupied since the birth of our own nation. If doing that to people in the middle east doesn't foment hatred of the U.S. and contribute to people wanting to be terrorists, I don't know what does.

We have morphed in to the bullies of the world. That's just the way I see it.

Have you ever wondered why the war on terror will never end?

Also, why are we giving aid to foreign countries (such as Israel) when we have to borrow it from China to do it? That makes no sense. I'm not picking on Israel, I'm saying why are we giving foreign aid to any countries at all when our economy is such a mess?

[-] 1 points by Rmarks1701 (103) 6 years ago

I do not think that idea is radical at all. The USA is the biggest bully on the block, and it does spend far too much money on overseas imperialistic aims. As to the war on terror, as long as there are people who set them selves up as opposing a different nations ideals (for example Theocracy's vs Democracies) we will always have some sort of terror. As long as people can be conned into thinking they are fighting for some sort of heavenly reward or even to just kick out something they do not like, there will be terrorists. That is human nature.

As to foreign aid, you are preaching to the choir. We should get our own economic house in order first before we lend or give money to other nations.

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

Yes, maybe it is human nature. The war on terror will never end though - because it is a false, unwinnable war. Just like the war on drugs.

Also, I believe the war on terror is no more than an excuse to take liberties away from the American people. How do feel about the Patriot Act?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 6 years ago

I've been on record on the internet for years

I have no privacy

I wish I could say the same for my government

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

But we were supposed to have all of this transparency?

And don't even get me started on Bradley Manning.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 6 years ago

The US government can't let the "terrorist" know their plans

er

who's Bradley Manning?

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

Private Manning of Wikileaks fame. They had him locked up for over a year torturing him, but couldn't be bothered with due process or the rule of law on a government 'whistleblower'.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2011/apr/19/bradley-manning-wikileaks-leavenworth-prison

I guess now he faces 52 yrs in prison, potentially

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

Sorry about the source, but... http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/12/us-boots-on-ground-in-libya-pentagon-confirms/

Even if we didn't, do you think bombing is okay?

[-] 2 points by Rmarks1701 (103) 6 years ago

4 people does not constitute an invasion. Plus th9ier reason for being there is to make the US embassy safe once more so that the USA can open official diplomatic lines of communication with the Libyan Government.

I see nothing wrong with that.

As to the bombing campaign, I know many people have questions about it, I am not one of them. the USA and NATO saw an opportunity to help topple a dangerous regime which sponsored terrorism (remember Lockabie?), Promoted human rights abuses and was probably headed toward an extended protracted civil war anyway when Gaddafi died.

Now I suspect your next question is going to be about Syria. That is a different kettle of fish entirely in that it's leader is still relatively young, there is no serious armed uprising or rebel leader to rally around, and a weak chance that promoting civil unrest in Syria leading to a toppling of the present regime will only lead to a change in leadership, but not leadership styles.

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

We spent years cozying up to Gaddafi.

However, part of the reason we took him out because he was introducing the gold dinar as a currency to Libya. Why would a gold-backed currency by some third-world dictator be a threat?

Most of the information given by the mainstream media on Gaddafi is disinformation. I guess that's not much of a shock; isn't most of the information they give distorted and designed to mislead?

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 6 years ago

I thought it was because people could get home loans without interest

[-] 2 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

other articles I've read also credit him with building a water pipeline to Libya for irrigation, having a direct democracy, and providing healthcare/education for his people.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 6 years ago

impossible

how can there be a better standard of living than in the USA?

we are 1st world

[-] 2 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

I'm not sure all of it is true, but I'm pretty sure a lot of what we were told by the mainstream media was completely false.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 6 years ago

I'm somewhat oblivious to mainstream media

I watch very limited TV

though I have changed my radio to KPBS

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

I get all my news off the internet, but I'd sleep better if I didn't read any news at all...

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

Here's another excerpt from this article on Gaddafi "Major newspapers and television channels in the world use news agencies from the United States, all biased, misleading and deceptive. The lies that the news agencies sell buy public opinion, and most people? By naivete or misinformation they behave like puppets, repeating whatever the U.S. government determines and imposes."

http://www.thetotalcollapse.com/who-is-muammar-gaddafi-lies-vs-truth/

[-] 0 points by owschico (295) 6 years ago

we have to prop up our empire. People that think we go around the world saving people from bad guys for the sake of being awesome should have their IQ tested.

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

Humanitarian hypocrisy: Libya has been bombed back to the stone age:

RT video

http://www.activistpost.com/2011/10/nato-humanitarian-intervention-is-myth.html

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago
[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

Activist Post looks like it is down with Google.

About a month ago,Google took down Activist Post for about three days and claimed it was some kind of 'administrative error'.

Sorry for the site going down - don't know what is happening.

[-] 1 points by Levels (73) 6 years ago

Dead link :(

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

Which one?

[-] 1 points by Levels (73) 6 years ago

The main link is not working for me.

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

It's back up - down late last night but now it works again.

[-] 1 points by huemanoun (18) 6 years ago

It's just a coup...meaning a country that they can get to overthrow itself ...overthows itself..they dont have to have any expensive war to overthrow the power of that state...they can just fuel a rebellion and get them to do it to themselves, and at the same time avoid being looked at as invaders and even as liberaters...then the state is already defeated and by supporting the rebels it is already on their side...then they can manipulate it economically, politcally, and diplomatically, and it is theirs..and they didnt even have to fight for it..they got a posse to do it for them

what is ironic is that the country that supports these rebellions around the world crushes any on its own home soi

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

exactly. please kindly watch this incredibly moving video about the hypocrisy of 'democracy' over there versus police brutality at home:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGRXCgMdz9A&feature=player_embedded

[-] 1 points by savethe99 (33) 6 years ago

Predator drones are made by a big, greedy corporation, aren't they? As we saw with the drone strike today ..... sometimes there is a little bit of good that comes out of greed. .................
http://www.savethe99.com/default.htm

[-] 2 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

I seem to remember they used a drone to take out Awlaki too. U.S. citizen. No due process. No rule of law. First sitting U.S. president to openly assassinate a U.S. citizen.

[-] 1 points by savethe99 (33) 6 years ago

Muammar Gaddafi's death is truly something to celebrate. And his life of oppression is something worth protesting about !!!!

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

And as well, why would you celebrate anyone's death? Isn't that bad karma?

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

Excerpt from this article: How can you call someone a dictator leader who overthrew a corrupt monarchy, modernized the country, won the highest HDI in Africa, and applied a direct democracy system of government?

http://www.thetotalcollapse.com/who-is-muammar-gaddafi-lies-vs-truth/

[-] 1 points by dankpoet (425) 6 years ago

I don't see these HDI statistics as meaningful. The comparison is to Brazil and Africa? Libya has a very small population and oil. I felt like these non-salon articles were mostly conjecture. Conjecture I can't disprove and that's something to think about.

[-] 1 points by dankpoet (425) 6 years ago

We must awaken people without scaring them. Our one demand, as I believe that is all we can afford has to be: Amend the Constitution for government ONLY financing of elections, no contributions, from anyone; rendering Citizens United a moot point. It’s the only piece of this that resonates with the anti-establishment left, the anti-establishment right and everyone in between. Including many who make 350k+ believe me its great to make that kind of money but that doesn't mean you want to spend it on some one's (or even your own) campaign where the mega-corps and uber-unions are going to drown you out anyway. The shear fear of this movement uniting and growing, immune to their false discourse would so scare the shit out of them they'd probably start proactively trying to appease us. Wouldn't that be nice? Oh, and its spin-proof. The logical contortions involved in trying to spin this would only push people to us.

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

I agree with your statement about awakening people without scaring them. But what does this have to do with Libya?

[-] 2 points by dankpoet (425) 6 years ago

Gee m, Nothing I guess. Rewriting through the forum, the criticism helps me. But Props to Libya for unseating a tyrant and telling us to keep our boots off their ground :) There seems to be some interesting discussion going here.

[-] 0 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

Unseating a tyrant? Not so sure. Apparently he was a hero - according to a lot of Africans.

http://www.thetotalcollapse.com/who-is-muammar-gaddafi-lies-vs-truth/

[-] 1 points by dankpoet (425) 6 years ago

I read that one, just found it unconvincing.

[-] 1 points by Derp (14) from Libertyville, IL 6 years ago

I agree, the before looks awful. Only two cars in one lane? It's like North Korea in the middle east or something.

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

You mean the "after", 2011. Don't know about the cars, maybe Sunday afternoon? Not sure.

[-] 0 points by deanchuk (7) from זכרון יעקב, חפה 6 years ago

The rebels inhumane brutality predicts an even darker future for Lybia.... Its just my conspiracy, but maybe the westren world wants to distaibalize Lybia to get some oil?

[-] 0 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

Yes, but the even uglier picture emerging is that he was actually a good guy to the Libyans - I suspect the gold dinar is another reason as well.

[-] 0 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

Look at the date tags on the photos.

No, we weren't bombing civilians.

We are nation building. We support democracy.

Did going in to Libya have anything to do with Gaddafi introducing the gold dinar to rival the U.S. dollar? RT story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35_Ai6EsMU&feature=related

Gosh, you know we are living in strange and ironic times when the only major network that tells the truth and is an alternative news source is Russia Today.

[-] 1 points by dankpoet (425) 6 years ago

This video I thought fascinating and likely.

[-] 1 points by mgiddin1 (1057) from Linthicum, MD 6 years ago

RT has some biases too but they are one of the few I go to to piece together the truth.

Activist Post is another - but they are mostly news aggregate. But a good one.