Forum Post: OWS using donations to pay spammers and castrate free speech and plurality of thought
Posted 14 years ago on Nov. 2, 2011, 11:43 a.m. EST by Thrasymaque
(-2138)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
OWS is using its donations to pay spammers like ModestCapitalist who post long winded texts over and over again in any thread that is critical of OWS. This is a form of censorship designed to castrate free speech and plurality of thought. Ironically, the political system OWS is fighting against is the very reason OWS has the luxury to exist since the government of US, as bad and corrupt as it may be, respects free speech.
As an OWS supporter, I am very saddened by these latest attempts at censorship and I am now questioning if I want to be part of the 99%. I would love to hear the official stance OWS has on the matter.
Note to ModestCapitalist: When you spam this thread, please add some paragraphs to your copy pasted messages as it would make them much easier to read.
Sigh. Once again, if you want to be part of the movement, go to a General Assembly or form one of your own. These forums have little/nothing to do with it.
The movement claims to be for the 99%, however it is not possible for everyone to make it to the general assemblies. I don't live in a city that has one. In any case, I was told there were only a few people that went to every assembly, thus only a few people have a true voice in the movement. If OWS cared about the 99%, it would look at this forum. Wait, it does, that's why they are censoring it. lol!
It should be moderated way harder.
So we can actually talk about stuff rather than waste our time with assholes and paid schills that are here to disrupt conversation and organization.
Actually, one of the main spammers is a robot implemented on this site by the admins. You might have seen his posts. ModestCapitalist. They appear in posts that are marked as "anti-OWS" and are basically copy pasted texts which are very long and with very few paragraphs. There is one a bit lower on this thread.. Often, ModestCapitalist will give out auto-responses like "next" if you answer his posts, sometimes an admin will override him and write back. It's kind of fun to play with.
Er... no. This forum is operated by one individual. OWS has much bigger fish to fry. And you're free to start your own General Assembly. I've done that in my own hometown.
We have a crew and ties to multiple occupations, but yeah, the site is an unofficial hub, not THE movement.
Nor does it represent any general assembly.
Indeed, we get our material from a few PR teams linked to other assemblies, but unlike NYCGA.net, for example, this is not the website of the Liberty square general assembly.
I guess I could, but then I would vote against them in the first meeting since I don't believe in direct democracy one bit.
Ah, then I really have no idea why you're here.
Because I agree with what OWS is fighting against, so I want to inform myself on the movement and see what they are about. However, the more I do that, the less I like their tactics and the philosophy behind their movement.
You see, I'm the type of person that likes to understand things from the inside out. I participate and read forums whose premises I don't always agree with because I'm interested in learning why certain people think certain ways. I believe it's important to inform ourselves not only about things we agree with a priori, but also about things we might not agree with. It helps the brain become more flexible. Perhaps one day, with enough training, it will be able to dance a ballet.
And, of course, when someone claims I'm automagically part of their movement, I want to know why. "You're one of us, one of the 99%." - "Euh? Really. What's that all about. I wonder what new organization I automagically got myself into this time. Hmmm... I'll read about it."
I've applied to the GA to get myself out of the 99%. They say they'll look into it and perhaps the name will become the 98.9999999999999999999% I'm still waiting for a confirmation. The last time I was signed into a contract I didn't even know existed was when the bank added me to one of their credit card plans without mentioning it. Or, was it when Facebook changed their privacy settings? I forget.
I don't think the movement explicitly claims to represent you. We only claim to represent the interests of the 99%. So, you are part of the 99% in that you are one of the oppressed (I assume, forgive me if I'm wrong), but I guess you are not part of the movement. It's a subtle difference, granted. Direct democracy, as practiced in NY, is all about representing and including the minority. But if you don't even want to be included in the minority, then that's another matter entirely. I'm sorry your needs are not being met, but I hope the outcome of this whole thing will benefit you in some way.
Keep in mind that these forums are a very poor representation of the movement. In fact, they have little/nothing to do with what's happening on the ground.
A direct democracy might work in a sandbox, or in a campground between friends, but it doesn't scale. Every day, OWS demonstrates more and more how it fails at every turn. A direct democracy would work if everyone was a scholar and a critical thinker and an expert on all issues. In the real world, its better to let a professional economist make crucial decisions about the economy than to poll from the opinions of all types of people which will mostly include people who do not even begin to comprehend the issue. What eventually happens is that people who don't understand are swayed one way or the other by their friends. Or, their votes are simply bought by interested parties.
You should study politics and economy, they are interesting subjects. The system we have now could be wonderful if we could pass laws to correct the flaws which permit corruption. There's no need for a top to bottom change. A republic works much better than direct democracy. Plato knew this 2,500 years ago.
LOL. Look at what the professional economists and politicians have done. I rest my case.
What makes you think OWS will do any better with an untested system. US is one of the strongest economies in the world, it could be a lot worse.
Okay, we're not getting anywhere. No country has toppled the world economy before, or caused billions of species to go extinct. The coming crash will be far worse than you can imagine, especially if we go home. Also, stop believing propaganda pieces.
Thank you for your perspective. It gives me hope for the future.
I wouldn't be so arrogant and blame everything on US. You're just one country after all. Although, it's true, you're the country who has done the most harm in the history of mankind, possibly of the universe, other countries have done their share as well.
How could it be worse? The system is incapable of putting on the brakes and is self-destructing. When it does, the poor will be the ones who suffer and die. OWS is having problems because we aren't a government and have no actual authority to enact proposals that would remove specific people from the park. I mean, come on, we're living in a park. I think it's going as well as could possibly be imagined. We aren't allowed tents, or generators, nor structures of any kind.
"How could it be worse? The system is incapable of putting on the brakes and is self-destructing. When it does, the poor will be the ones who suffer and die."
It could be worse because system far worse have already existed and continue to exist throughout the world. In some countries, you don't have to wait for the system to self-destruct before seeing the poor suffer and die, they are already suffering and dying right now. Don't you know this? A lot of these countries are currently being occupied or have once been occupied by US. It should be easy to get some information.
It's your choice to live in a park. The latest report show that most OWS protesters have nice houses and apartments. You could be using them.
What makes you think it could possibly be worse? We've ruined the world economy, we have military bases in 90% of countries and are permanently at war with one country or another, we're on track to destroy 1/3 of the ocean's ecosystems when the coral reefs dissolve, global warming is just warming up and by all accounts will result in huge loss of human life, we've invested time and again in fossil fuels instead of renewable energy, we have arrogant fools gambling with non-existent money over twice the amount of the entire world's GDP, 1/5 children in our "strongest economic" country is living in poverty while 400 people have more wealth than 150 million others. All of these things are results of the professionals being in charge. It's time the peasant class learned to think for itself. It's time for the people to rule. And I promise you this: Ideas will rule, and the best ideas will rise to the top. Education will skyrocket. Military will shrink drastically and most of our bases will close. We'll start investing in renewables (way too late, but whatever). Foreign relations will improve immeasurably as a result. Times will still be tough, but at least we'll be on the right track. No, it can't be worse than it is now.
We installed our solar panels this past week. We did it just because it's a great thing to do, and we feel good about it. We plant trees wherever we can, carpool when possible, and think about averting global warming as much as possible. Technology can solve this rather horrific scenario about to unfold, but only when everyone agrees severe, man-made climate change is undeniably present.
Can we remind people scientists who've done ice-core air bubbles sampling and measured rising and falling rates of CO2 over the last few hundred thousand years have determined there has never been as great a rate of increase in CO2 levels as are now occurring? Throughout all of the past ice ages and periods of global warming, the rates of change have never been as great as in the past 200 years. That is the truly spectacularly scary statistic.
In the meantime you have people (?) like Thr... above who can only think of specious arguments to justify the continuing monopoly that the .1% represent, to try to deflect attention on this, to scare, insult, grind people down, all in the misguided hope we'll give up and go home. It's so transparently pathetic and just needs to be stamped down again and again. There are way more of us than them anyway, as they'll soon be forced to admit.
I found Thrassy's arguments anything but specious. I believe you are the pot calling ... in this case. Why can't you pioneer some of your principles on a small scale, as he suggests here and elsewhere? Start a small co op of some sort. Not sure why you veered off into a global warming jag?
It could be much worse, and has been many times in history. The important this is to remain realistic. There is no such thing as perfect systems. Utopia is a drug and makes for a beautiful dream, but doesn't do much good in practice. I'm not saying your ideas are not possible, but why not test them in small scale before pushing them upon everyone else? Why not start by running a small neighborhood using OWS methods. Oh wait... you have a winter wonderland in which women are being raped but the crimes are not being reported to the authorities. I heard some of you were having problems with public masturbation? Isn't it you fix those problems first before attempting to grow OWS bigger?
Just have some integrity for once. Go be mentally ill somewhere else.
"Every day, OWS demonstrates more and more how it fails at every turn."
Are you trying to convince yourself? You sure haven't convinced me or anyone I know. Your histrionics aren't working.
Everything Modestcapitlist posts makes sense to me. It doesn't seem in any way disingenuous. Be part of the solution to the world's problems.
"As an OWS supporter" Who's paying you to lie?
Please don't be discouraged. You are the 99%. Can't change that . We need everyone despite our passionate expression. You are not unheard. What's in a name? ModestCapitalist???
Do you have any evidence this?
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linear organization is augmented with a 2 dimensional screen
Ovariate could be the female version of castrate
It could have been, but the powers at be decided on the word oophorectomy.
Don't fall for this psychological crap from any one percent goon. It's an obvious attempt to discredit our cause or divert our attention from the obscene, unjust, immoral, and illogical concentration of wealth. Donald Trump went on record the other day telling us to blame the government instead of Wall Street and the richest one percent. Other well known public figures are trying to stereotype all of us as lazy entitlement junkies without a brain or spine among us. Their goons are obviously online and on air trying to break our will. Don't fall for any of it. Just follow the law and keep protesting no matter what the one percent goons say or do. Our message is vital. Below is my two cents:
We have been mislead by Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton, Bush Jr, Obama, and nearly every other public figure. Economic growth, job creation, and actual prosperity are not necessarily a package deal. In fact, the first two are horribly misunderstood. Economic growth/loss (GDP) is little more than a measure of domestic wealth changing hands. A transfer of currency from one party to another. The rate at which it is traded. This was up until mid ’07′ however, has never been a measure of actual prosperity. Neither has job creation. The phrase itself has been thrown around so often, and in such a generic political manner, that it has come to mean nothing. Of course, we need to have certain things done for the benefit of society as a whole. We need farmers, builders, manufacturers, transporters, teachers, cops, firefighters, soldiers, mechanics, sanitation workers, doctors, managers, and visionaries. Their work is vital. I’ll even go out on a limb and say that we need politicians, attorneys, bankers, investors, and entertainers. In order to keep them productive, we must provide reasonable incentives. We need to compensate each by a fair measure for their actual contributions to society. We need to provide a reasonable scale of income opportunity for every independent adult, every provider, and share responsibility for those who have a legitimate need for aid. In order to achieve and sustain this, we must also address the cost of living and the distribution of wealth. Here, we have failed miserably. The majority have already lost their home equity, their financial security, and their relative buying power. The middle class have actually lost much of their ability to make ends meet, re-pay loans, pay taxes, and support their own economy. The lower class have gone nearly bankrupt. In all, its a multi-trillion dollar loss taken over about 30 years. Millions are under the impression that we need to create more jobs simply to provide more opportunity. as if that would solve the problem. It won’t. Not by a longshot. Jobs don’t necessarily create wealth. In fact, they almost never do. For the mostpart, they only transfer wealth from one party to another. A gain here. A loss there. Appreciation in one community. Depreciation in another. In order to create net wealth, you must harvest a new resource or make more efficient use of one. Either way you must have a reliable and ethical system in place to distribute that newly created wealth in order to benefit society as a whole and prevent a lagging downside. The ‘free market’ just doesn’t cut it. Its a farce. Many of the jobs created are nothing but filler. The promises empty. Sure, unemployment reached an all-time low under Bush. GDP reached an all-time high. But those are both shallow and misleading indicators. In order to gauge actual prosperity, you must consider the economy in human terms. As of ’08′ the average American was working more hours than the previous generation with far less equity to show for it. Consumer debt, forclosure, and bankruptcy were also at all-time highs. As of ’08′, every major American city was riddled with depressed communities, neglected neighborhoods, failing infrastructures, lost revenue, and gang activity. All of this has coincided with massive economic growth and job creation. Meanwhile, the rich have been getting richer and richer and richer even after taxes. Our nation’s wealth has been concentrated. Again, this represents a multi-trillion dollar loss taken by the majority. Its an absolute deal breaker. Bottom line: With or without economic growth or job creation, you must have a system in place to prevent too much wealth from being concentrated at the top. Unfortunately, we don’t. Our economy has become nothing but a giant game of Monopoly. The richest one percent of Americans already own nearly 1/2 of all US wealth. An all-time high. More than double their share before Reagan took office. The lower 90 percent of Americans own less than 10 percent of all US wealth. An all-time low. Still, the rich want more. They absolutely will not stop. Now, our society as a whole is in serious jeapordy. Greed kills.
It's not all of the 1% wealthiest who are bad actors. But there are some who may not be altruistic or have good intentions. Under a dictatorship people are at the mercy of their dictator. We are at the mercy of the very wealthy in much the same way. Our only hope is that there is some "self-policing" within the very wealthiest. There doesn't appear to be enough, judging by how poorly compensated the 99% here are, and the slave-like working conditions of billions of others worldwide (who make the U.S. 99% look wealthy). OWS really is a worldwide as well as national revolution, based on numbers that just won't go away, no matter how insultingly terrible deniers of these numbers treat us.
Lol!
The moderators in the chat also ban anyone who disagrees with their positions, or questions some of their radical ideas. So for these free thinking people who want a 'general assembly', democratic movement to flourish, their first act is to censor people. Kind of hypocritical. BTW saying a Mod is a hypocrite will get you banned.
It's not surprising since this is an extreme left movement. Anarchists and communists are known for silencing their adversaries or whoever is not inline with the movement. A big problem is also that you must be present at these general assemblies if you want your ideas to be considered, but it seems only a few are making it to the rendez-vous on a daily basis since most people have to work. In a few months, they will already have made plenty of decisions without asking what the vast majority of the population thinks. It's looking more and more like an authoritarian regime. Quite scary actually.
HA! What do you have to be scared of? "Quite scary actually." Pathetic. Rather than be afraid of this, why not see it for what it is? 400 people in the U.S. own $1.7 trillion in wealth. There is something completely whacked about this. This becomes rather like an unacknowledged, but "de facto" DICTATORSHIP. Sorry, but that's the reality.
Prove it
Go around the boards and search for extremely long winded texts without paragraphs in any thread that is critical of OWS. If you look a bit you'll find a lot which have been posted by ModestCapitalist. If you look a bit harder, you'll find some posts where he admits my accusation.
Sorry. It just doesn't work.
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Show where he admits it. MANY posters in here don't have paragraphs. They probably don't know what a paragraph is
You don't know what a sentence is.
He always posts the same texts. He just posted a sample below. Look around, they are very easy to find.
yeah I've seen that