Forum Post: OWS to hold a city wide consensus on how the park should be used
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 30, 2011, 4:11 p.m. EST by Thrasymaque
(-2138)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
OWS protesters have come to realize that they have forcefully taken control of a public park, and that some in the 99% might want to use said park for activities unrelated to OWS. Since OWS is a movement based on true democracy by consensus, it has been decided that all the citizens of New-York will have a say as to whether the protesters can take full control of the park for an unlimited time, full control of the park for a limited time, partial control of the park for an unlimited time, or partial control of the park for a limited time.
Hurray for using a consensus process! But let's not fall prey to the idea that individuals should have the power to block a group. We can use a process that includes everyone and incorporates the concerns of all. But we need to use a final decision rule that allows the group to move forward. Occupy Oakland used a 90% super-majority rule in conjunction withy a consensus process. This allowed them to reach a decision to call a general strike. The decision has widespread, but not unanimous support. Where would they be if they required unanimity? In a week-long meeting dominated by a few people who refused to change their mind, resulting in no decision and widespread frustration.
Amateurs ....
All GA decisions are found by clicking on the menu bar at the top of this page that says NYGA. The news and releases posted by the GA at OWS NY are under "news" on the menu bar at the top of the page.
How can I propose my idea to the GA? I think democracy is important, and I find it a shame that this important movement is based on Occupying a public place by force and presuming that 99% of people agree with this.
I think you have to go there and participate in the meetings. they don't presume anything. The occupiers are occupying and they feel they have a right to. They are not speaking for those who believe otherwise. Obviously, they are acting on their beliefs, not acting out the wishes of those who disagree with them. As Thrasymachus said, should we be enslaved to barbarians?
But what did Thrasymachus ever understand about democracy. All he cared about was how to turn a phrase in such a way as to dupe the most people most of the time.
He was a sophist.
He would have snuck out of Socrates stand off. He was a coward
What makes Socrates' way so beautiful is that he nevertheless gave permission to Thrasymachus to speak his ideas. Socrates never took control of a public place by force to be used only for his biding. Others were always allowed to keep using public spaces as they wished. Had Socrates forced his thoughts and words on people, they would not have followed in so many numbers. He never claimed to talk for the 99%, he only claimed to talk for himself about his ideas, ideas he was willing to sacrifice his life for. OWS is nowhere near what Socrates was. They act in an authoritarian way by claiming what they believe is theirs. They use totalitarian methodologies to pass along a message of peace and democracy. Socrates would have laugh at the irony and clumsiness of the method.
brilliant. So cut to the chase and deliver 5o gallons of hemlock brew to Zuccotti Park, you breathless moron.
Oh, and the sentence above is courtesy of Aristophanes, since, as we both know, Socrates would talk nicer. Adios
It remains a fact that Socrates never forced his ideas on others. This would have been a nice methodology for the OWS to emulate. Instead, they take up space and repeat their message like parrots, without a care in the world as to how others might feel or as to what other might want to do in the park. Using the consensus methodology to really include the 99% of people in New-York who should be part of the movement and see what all of them really want done in the park and for the movement would be a positive step in the right direction at this time. The movement has started, but now it's alienating members as it's not really catering to the 99%.
So are you Thrasymachus or not? You keep jumping out of character.
A monologue of praise for Socrates from his executioner. It is disgusting not clever.
If you can't take a hint from Aristophanes you may have to deal with Alcibiades. If I were you, I'd cut my losses and run.
They have every right to be in the park. Every right. Lay off.
I'm a follower of Socrates. It's been a long time since the Republic, and I have since changed my ways. I now believe in a true democracy which permits all to speak their mind, not just some chosen ones. I am here to remind OWS protesters that Socrates never pushed me out of the way, I was there by his side during his speeches. He used arguments, and not force. For that, I will always respect him.
Every bad guy on every planet at the opening of every star trek episode said the same thing. Capt. Kirk is onto you. Go play somewhere else.
"true democracy" as opposed to democracy, what the hell is that, please, you are like a flea
My badness or goodness can be judge by the arguments I make on these boards at the present time. We should all have a voice, we should all be part of the 99%, even the 1%. True understanding comes with true unity, not with a purported unity. I believe it is time for the OWS protesters to let everyone decide what the next step should be. It's time to really come together. And now, we sing Kumbaya.
uh huh. Don't you have some homework to do? Monday is a school day
Not the same time zone. I figured. Someone in St. Louis or something like that says his First Amendment rights are being trampled because someone camping in a park in another time zone is exercising his.
We do not have the same timezone my friend.
Not the same time zone. I figured. Someone in St. Louis or something like that says his First Amendment rights are being trampled because someone camping in a park in another time zone is exercising his.
I'm not from nor in US. I'm not worried about my First Amendment rights, but the main reason I'm not supporting the Occupy is because of the totalitarian methods it is using, i.e. imply it speaks for the 99%, taking control of public space by force, etc... This makes me sad because I believe in your cause, I simply am in total disagreement with the ways you are using to achieve your yet to be defined objectives.
If this announcement was being made by OWS it would have been posted in news and reposted here. It would not have been a user submitted post.
It was made by OWS in my dream. I believe dreams can become realities, and sometimes they already are.
Totalitarian?! Wow. I think you need to read some Karl Popper. It is the opposite of totalitarian and that is ticking off every retired control freak who protested during the 1960s and wants a leader to tell them what to do.
It's piece meal and no one is putting words in anyone's mouths.
Much to the chagrin of MoveOn and the Democratic Party
You neglected to mention "no control of the park".
http://occupywallst.org/forum/brrr-1-rich-federal-reserve-cold-banks-solidarity-/#comment-243505
I hope they vote you out of the park .
yes! love it! We can't insist on our rights if we don't allow others to have theirs! Now we're recognizing our responsibilities to all people's rights!
Exactly! But if everyone can have rights and must respect the rights of others, how can we handle situations when one group of people trespass the rights of others? Does this mean we should have some kind of police in our system? That seems to organized!?
Well why not use the tools that are there? I mean, if we disrupt someone's sleep with drumming, they call the police department, and the police are showing up to deal with us, to get them their rights back. Would it be a ridiculous notion for US to contact the police department to see that we get them to enforce our right to assemble, kind of turn the tables and use their own tools? But to handle things among ourselves, maybe we should have camp security? That could handle in-house the minor infractions like people claiming someone stole their sleeping bag.
Why not build shelters where no sound or less sound coming in, that way nobody is disturbed. ;)
Technology and science again helps in problem.
But if we start bickering over who stole who's sleeping bags, it makes us look like little kids in a campground. We should look like adults who can run our own lives so that in turn we are trusted by the others in leading this project of true democracy for the country. The notion of calling the police to defend our right to assemble is not ridiculous, the problem is we have been assembling for over a month. We also have to give others the right to assemble and use the park for other activities. If we take it by force, we are acting like a totalitarian regime.
I'm all for using security guards, but how to we choose who they are? Should we have some kind of mini national security department who controls our security guards?
When someone doing something what is supposed to not to do, we or someone go talk to person or persons who doing that what is not supposed to be done.
We no need police or guards, we need ourselves to be there where we see smoke. :D
That is how we put in our culture, allways-ready mode when problems is brought in light. (Whatever they are)
We all would be part of security guards. Big brother and big sister eyes, together. :D
It would be perfect protection force because everybody allways watching. ;)
But, if everyone has the authority to claim someone else did something wrong and "arrest" them, couldn't that be very hard to control? Sometimes having designated people who have a special job of authority, an authority that is a privilege given by the others and which can be revoked, can be a good thing? No?
We should not arrest anybody. We can talk like adults to little child, telling and showing proof why it is wrong charlie that you did do that. (We can't just put things under roof and say we didn't put anything under roof)
We should not treat each other like.... i will not say that word.
But, in the real world there are people who do crimes even if they know it is wrong. Sometimes they have a mental problem, they might be rapists or cleptomaniacs. Even if we talk to them like a father talks to a child, nothing will change. Perhaps we need psychologists? But then, who decides who are these people are? Should we all be guards and psychologists at the same time?
There is 90 billion people on this planet, people will come out autonomously to even sacrifice their life to understand some people psychology who just is not understanding what is talked about to them.
Locking people behind lock is not in the end solution, it is just throwing problem under the roof and saying there is no problems under the roof here. If we can't trust some brain psychology, then there will be lot of people who are interested to "watch these people, walking with them" as job to make sure "they will not do what is not supposed to happen", call these protectors of somekind or "Yoda and padawan". :D
There is many people who want to be yodas those who can't control themselves. ;)
We just have believed to this day we are alone and its impossible, but taking how big population we have grown, today nothing is impossible with this many different personalities and thinking brains. ;)
If you retract the use of Yoda and Padawan from your post, it will make it seem more serious.
We all watch each other so we no need yoda and padawan kind thinking, but if it is serious case, there could be some personal watchers for some people just to "be sure". (I have never met such serious case so i don't know is there that kind case in this world. There is unstable minds but i have not seen somekind brain psychology yet what is perfectly unstable. That would most likely be more quarantine thing like parasite, because human mind if it becomes insane perfectly, there must be parasite inside that body, i have no other conclusion why someone would be perfectly insane. Parasites so small but so....)
So if things look serious, we sometimes need to take person to whole body scan to look if there is parasites inside body. Its interesting how microbiology is allways more far away from our biology and are able to take control of humans.
We can all be guards and psychologists and especially friends to people who have problems and there is lots of people who will take care of some person "personally or not so personally", if these 90 billion people is taken culture where people take care of each other health and earth health itself. We are small bio-organism ourselves but we can act in this world like microbiology organism in humans.
I started talk deeper scienceway but i am sure you will understand after little research. ;)
This is an emergency Notice to all members of occupy James Damiano the very person who's been for over twelve years fighting the law firm that represents goldman sachs has been banned from this forum. Mr. Damiano is probably one of the most knowledgeable members and has contributed a wealth of information pertaining to the issues at hand in the Occupy forum
For more information e-mail thestealing@gmail.com or see http://wikileaksyola.yolasite.com/
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How they are going to ask from every new york person. Are they going to knock doors and ask or are they waiting them to come and say their words what ever it be?
Have they blueprints what they are going to do?
I'm not sure, but it's a good test for later when the consensus method will be used to make decisions all across the nation.
Taking control would be interesting test and lots of people most likely would share blueprints but there is lots of tech information troughout internet, example reprap technology how to build it.
We could reprap big structures immiteadely and transport them with "helicopter". :D
They're gonna need an iPad for that.
They actually don't have "full control" of the park. That would imply they are not allowing entry.
Anyone can still come into the park and use it as before. There are just a lot of other people there now.
They can't really use it as before, since before it used to be cleaned once in awhile since it was not being used as a campground. And before, people weren't taking up public space to use as private space upon which to put up tents for weeks at a time.
The park's been cleaned and continues to be cleaned.
Again, the only use the park had was as a place to go and sit.
People can still go and sit, they just have to share with all the others who are there now.
Why not build park with different floors and people no need to share seats, they could all sit because there would be enough place to sit because of "enough floors" with different park in each floor. ;)
Science and technology helps.
Sure, why not! Multi-level parks, sounds like what we'll need as the earth becomes more populated.
Yesterday people said, we can't build bigger than 3 floor building, right now we know how to do that, because we know "using right materials" we can. There is structures allready what is over 100 floor.
I have imagined park where food is grown everywhere using our aquaponic and hydroponic technology. Somekind water running up to down like we are somekind amazon forest and structure from air looks like mountain, because of plants and trees growing all over that structure. Beatiful!
How we get word out is the other thing what we need to figure out now to build this beatiful thing.
Yes, it does sound beautiful
Many will agree it sounds beatiful, so now we need to gather together to build that beatiful thing at least one place and tell the world how others can do it too. ;)
OWS Leaders- if you want this movement to succeed you have to transfer this into a political entity - the sooner the better! Otherwise is no point...........
We need scientists, not politicians.
Scientists can build you house, but politicians only can talk its little around and little flat.
We need scientist teams with different aims. ;)
I would like to sleep under big apple tree in 25 floor. :)
Looks like OWS is looking for a exit strategy.
"We left because the people voted us out"
LOL
If the majority of New-Yorkers feel we are abusing their rights by forcefully taking over a public park, then we should leave peacefully. If this is the case, perhaps there is another area where we could set up our campsite and play bongos.
OWS: "Let's Occupy a posh Hotel with room-service and demand asset transfers from the haves to the have-nots!!!!!!"
haha. liked.
This is an emergency Notice to all members of occupy James Damiano the very person who's been for over twelve years fighting the law firm that represents goldman sachs has been banned from this forum. Mr. Damiano is probably one of the most knowledgeable members and has contributed a wealth of information pertaining to the issues at hand in the Occupy forum
For more information e-mail thestealing@gmail.com or see http://wikileaksyola.yolasite.com/
--
Where can I find more information on this? Do you have a link?
He is pretending to be Thrasymachus from Plato's Republic. He is just trying to dupe you. Thrasymachus thought it was fun to dupe people. He took pride in his use of language to manipulate. He considered it an art worthy of effort and attention. He cared about power, not philosophy. The philosopher avoids power.
Yeah, here is the link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=jOjkQ-maz0UC&pg=PA177&dq=thrasymachus&hl=en&ei=gbOtTubtFIa-tgeuvYjSDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=thrasymachus&f=false
No, I just made it up. Hopefully someone will pick up on the idea and make it into a reality. After all, public space should remain open to all who wish to use it to make their own protests and what not.
Thrasymachus, the Sophist. Lovely
In this case, more like the opposition of the fake Socratic movement.
wow, what an oxymoron and even bad rhetoric. Thrasymachus could do better than that.