Forum Post: OWS supporters ----> Please answer
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 18, 2011, 10:24 a.m. EST by rexbolt6
(3)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
So tell me how it's gonna end. Fact, we just had elections all over the US a little over a week ago. Pretty much EVERY Dem running in my area had the full backing of the unions. It only takes one look at those hipster kids to know for a fact who they voted for in '08. So what will they do in 2012?
OWS supporters stated many times before that most OWSers don't support Obama, because he offers more of the same old, same old.
Since OWS has no leader, you can't even write in votes to elect someone sympathetic to the cause. So tell me, how things are going to change. I can guarantee every union member will vote for BHO/democrat in '12.
So what's the real choice:
BHO (again) Faceless Con (unknown yet) Ron Lawl
Looks like more of the same to me. In fact, it appears the unions hijacked this movement from right under OWS's nose.
Wait a year maybe the answer will be revealed
Judging by the effort that the GOP is putting into creating jobs and considering what they did in the last eight years they ran the country, I am guessing it won’t be one of their candidates.
I don’t know too many people that are going to drink that kool aid again.
4-5% unemployment under Bush, 9%+ under Obama. Double the from bush to Obama. escalation in military action under Obama. Sustained gas prices over $3 per gallon under Obama (only a few months under Bush). Obama has spent much more time on the golf course in 3 years than bush did in 8. I could go on, but no point as you will still claim Obama superior in every way.
You seem to be pretty good with facts (selected ones) maybe you could help me out a bit
What was the national debt when Bush took office?
Who started that war with Iraq for no reason?
Who severely understated the cost of the Iraq war?
Who left Afghanistan unfinished and attacked to Iraq?
By the time Bush left office what was the national debt?
Who sat by and watched the housing bubble grow and burst?
Who was the president when the stock market crashed lead to the worst recession since the great depression?
Who was the first president that thought the bailout was a good idea
What party is it that doesn’t want regulations to prevent future too big to fail banks?
Which president took office during the worst recession since the great depression?
How long did the great depression last?
How long is this recession expected to last?
What is the GOP jobs creation plan?
How does tax breaks for shipping jobs overseas help American workers?
Using terms like GOP shows you lack of understanding for this movement. If you are a supporter please start asking questions someone will help.
Explain, maybe I don't know what I am talking about enlighten me
"Using terms like GOP shows you lack of understanding for this movement"
You should know by now they all work for the same people.Although I owe you an apology as I just realized you were dragged into the party debate. Sorry.
I agree, they do all work for the same people (more or less)
I also realize that the right winger conservative/GOP are the main enemy of OWS
I think it is foolish for us to stand by and let the enemy trash the movement and organizations that support it.
Nothing is gained by pretending the opposition is not (currently) the vast majority of the posters on this site.
They need to be exposed and to have their lies and propaganda shown for what it is.
Don’t stand by while their lies and deception poison other minds.
I was a far right drone just two years ago. I fell for all the naive right wing buzzwords and theories. After reading Howard Zinn Zbignew Brzezinski Chomsky and Naomi Klien, I found the missing pieces to the puzzle. When I was on the right I only had half the story. It's unfortunate how we tend to stand firm on half truths. I guess that's why I'm so anti party politics. I still Have a bit of right wing in me. Remember a republican with and education will become an ally. I'm rambling in bed on my iPhone. WTF I called two of them mindless idiots today who am I kidding? You handled the guy better than I would have. Good work. Peace my friend.
we can play this game all day, but in the end you will still vote for Obama. We could have 10% unemployment and $4 per gallon gas come Nov of next year, 4 years in to Obamas presidency, and you will still find a way to blame republicans or more specifically, Bush. This week Obama announce that we will have US marines based in Australia as a reaction to China's military buildup. Obama has new drone bases that are flying and bombing middle eastern countries. He had boots on the ground in Libya. We are getting out of Iraq that was based on the Bush timeline. Still have Gitmo open (as well as "black" sites. I disagreed with a lot of What Bush did, and I can admit that, but you will still support Obama so long as he keeps a "D" by his party affiliation.
You don't really believe a new talking head is going to help this country do you? Especially with the choices we have. I would think after 40 years of getting sold out by Globalists we would look beyond party lines and fork tounges but I guess most are still blind.
So what is the GOP jobs plan?
Who is a viable GOP candidate?
We already see the current administration's plan, to destroy America. I'll try anything. If it doesn't work, we try again.Doing the same thing over and over isn't working.
Nothing will work until we get rid of most politicians now and get a new bunch who will do their job and represent us. That is what the problem is, geting politicians to do their job.
Explain this to me. You sound like a parrot repeating a slogan.
"We already see the current administration's plan, to destroy America"
Explain, what seems to be an imaginary plan, to me. I really want to hear this plan. I'll be waiting.
The president claims to want congress to pass a jobs bill that cannot be passed. He knows it, everyone knows it. The plan calls for more spending and to get that money, he wants more taxes. GOP doesn't want to pass the plan because they have promised NO MORE taxes to their people.
Obama designed the bill to divide people and that has been his goal from day one, to divide the country. Then he goes off on another junket with his queen under the guise of business. He's in Bali now. WTF?
He killed the Keystone oil pipeline that would create tens of thousands of jobs and many industries. No one knows why. He stopped drilling in the Gulf killing many many more jobs. Then he went to Argentina and promised them billions in oil contracts for doing the same thing he forbids.
By the way. The courts ruled against Obama but he continues to ignore the court rulings. Companies are allowed to drill there but they are afraid to because they fear Obama will appeal and the work will be stopped again. Most drilling rigs are already being used by foreign countries, the same ones that American workers used to work on.
Yeah, things like that in the current imaginary plan. I could go on all day with parts of his plan to destroy America but it would be like talking to a stupid Democrat wall.
Anything would be better, okay JoeTheStupidLefty?
PS. Try looking some of this stuff up, it's all out there on the Internet, instead of other people doing it for you.
PS: If you find yourself repeating things you hear on TV, check politifact.com Sometimes your side is telling the truth and it is nice to hear. Other times, they are not and you should be aware of it.
PSS: Kill your television
Actually, I read (painstakingly, I might add) Through Obama's Jobs Bill. It was, well ok. Nothing earth shattering, and a few interesting projects. No where in that bill did it talk about raising taxes. What it does, in order to cover the cost, is eliminate the loophole that uber rich people get to depreciate their personal aircraft. Yes, corporate Jets and the like. So I don't know where you got the information that he wants more taxes. Go ahead and read the bill for yourself: http://www.whitehouse.gov/economy/jobsact
Ummmm love that Kool aid don’tcha foolish little righty
Hint!
Opinions/propaganda and facts are two different things
Gotta go. I can't be wasting my time with nitwits.
I told you it was all out there as facts. Any others who might stumble on this can check it out by googling and you'll see thousands of pages of FACTS from many accredited news sources unlike JoeTheStupidLefty whose research is only saying 'it's propaganda.'
Yeah, you go little righty.
Go parrot your right wing horse shit elsewhere
Take your anti-OWS propaganda and put it where the sun don't shine
Replacing corrupted candidates with honest ones won't do much good. They'll simply become corrupted themselves. See Ring of Gyges
Honest theoreticians need to inspect the political system and figure out what laws need to be put in place to diminish or eliminate corruption, and decide if we need certain types of comities formed by certain types of people to make sure these new laws are respected.
Once this is done, then we replace the vast majority of candidates with new ones, and, before they become corrupted, we make sure they move their butts to install these new laws and comities.
You are right Glaucon. One way to fix it might be term limits for everyone. There will be a lot of people on both sides of the fence on that one. Usually the argument is experience. Is it better to have experienced representatives or not? The are good points on both sides but many polls side people wanting with term limits.
Whenever I talk about the crooks, I sound like a Democrat but I really just want good politicians. Most of the crooks out there now are Dems. Rangel, Waters, Seabrook, Frank, Holder, etc. These people need to go, not just get slaps on the wrist and back to the office.
We also need to limit Supreme Court judgeships from them having lifetime jobs. Look what has happened now, the worst Supreme Court in history. We should make it the same terms as the terms.
I always liked flat tax and that would do a lot for the country, starting with getting rid of IRS. It would cut a lot of corruption immediately.
WTF makes you think any of this is about supporting Obama. Wow there is a lot of clueless people on here today. School closing or what?
it was 100% bash of the GOP, who else is there?
No sweat I just hate to see people embrace party lines. It keeps us divided. They are all on the same team kinda like good cop bad cop. It's time we do the same
I am total agreement that there are major problems and it ALL starts from the political class, they make the rules that we live by and businesses do business by. i have stated all along that the issue is not with Wall Street, they are playing by the rules that Washington made for them. I am aware of the lobbying, but lobbying is permitted under the laws made by the politicians. Clean up the politicians, make term limits mandatory, no more lifetime politicians and cut out the retirement package. Change has to come from Washington. So long as the laws are in favor of Wall Street and Wall Street can legally lobby, then nothing will change. Of course there needs to be personal responsibility as well. The government must shrink in size as well as work force. People that need a hand should get it, but it should not be a lifetime guarantee. There are some that cannot help themselves, by all means they should get help, but if someone is able bodied and mentally fit they must work. Even the bible says 2 Thessalonians 3:6-18 "8 and we did not eat anyone’s food without paying. Instead, in toil and drudgery we worked night and day in order not to burden any of you. 9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give ourselves as an example for you to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we used to give you this command: “If anyone is not willing to work, neither should he eat.” 11 For we hear that some among you are living an undisciplined life, not doing their own work but meddling in the work of others. 12 Now such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to work quietly and so provide their own food to eat."
I agree with most of what you say. Let me start by saying it is beyond lobbying. Do you have knowledge of the Globalist Agenda? Do you know of the Council on Foreign Relations? Also I understand the Biblical text but don't take it out of context either. If you are a man of faith let me ask you, how did Christ feel about the money changers, how did he feel about the handicapped? How did he feel about war? There are people taking advantage of the welfare system but there is corruption in every institution. The poor are feed to keep civil order not because anyone cares. The elite want social order so they could continue their land and natural resource grabs. This is America do you really want to see people in the streets starving and robbing markets for food? Should we see that in any country? There is more than enough to go around. Economics 101 the game of monopoly is a depiction of the free market. What happens at the end of the game? All the money is in the hands of one. That is why regulation is needed. Without massive, repeat massive regulation the free market means slavery. We have had a run of deregulation over the past twenty years and they have all the money now. It's not unions, it's not welfare, it's war and the greed of a few. They own our government the don't lobby it.
Politics won't change until the Occupy tactics evolve into an ongoing, organized effort that doesn't require an ongoing presence in the park.
Let's face it, despite all of the reasons to despise the Tea Party, they also give us a reason to hope: They showed us that determined, organized groups can make things happen.
My hopes:
I think it's easier to sit in a cold street and get beaten up by police than it is to go home, sit in the same apartment, think about the same unpaid bills, the same shitty situation... and the same shitty, depressing life.
I think it's slightly easier to go home with the hope of continuing to organize, to continue to have the same group of interested people. This site has the map section, that will help groups to self-organize when they get back, and look for more ways to improve their communities and local economies and local politics. (Big business works with pols on the local level, too, and my suspicion is that it does way more damage than anything they can steal in congress.)
Little seeds get sprouted in little planter pots. Then they're re-planted in real soil so they can take root and become larger plants with deeper roots.
Next step is to re-plant Occupy outside of the park in a way that it can grow.
Calls for universal health care, financial regulation, and an end to pay-to-play politics - Tell me, which one is bad for 99%? You are confused. Elevate yourself and support OWS!
I've been a union member for decades. This movement wasn't created by or hijacked by "unions". Newt and Pelossi hijacked your democratic process of formulating government policy. They represent the Liberals and Conservatives and both are in the news this week on how corporate money has made them both rich in their titles as Speaker of the House. I'm sure you think unions hijacked Washington DC too. Good try on your part to start a fire without any facts.
The powers that be have done a real number, dumbing down the public with regard to organized labor. The real champion of union busting was Reagan, but all subsequent presidents,and especially the R party congress have supported "free trade" bills that have destroyed the job prospects and the standard of living of the working class. If it weren't for the work that the unions did, decades ago, we would still have third world working conditions here today. Any politician that tells you free trade is good for America, is a shill for the elite.
Reagan clearly was a visible President who broke unions at the Federal level. The idea of a globalized workforce is embedded in both political parties. I wish it was only one Party but the fact is that as popular former President Clinton was he supported globalization of America's workforce and was rewarded financially for his corporate support.
Yes,as I mentioned, it has been all subsequent presidents. Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush 2, and now Obama. All have sold out the American worker.
While I've been HUGELY disappointed with Obama, it's still a fact that Obama is better than any potential Republican candidate. So yes, I'll begrudgingly vote for Obama.
But what you don't seem to get (based on the questions you're asking) is that "this" isn't going to be solved by a presidential election. The problem goes well beyond who's in office - the problem is the entire political/economic system. How that gets solved? As a pessimist, I don't think it does. I worry that this all peters out before any real, lasting change is enacted. There needs to be drastic changes made - essentially a re-writing of the Constitution. And I don't think the 99% (the real 99%, not just those that call themselves the 99%) are willing to go through with such a dramatic change.
How about just ending age discrimination for Social Security and Medicare, making both available to all from birth? That would fix a lot of problems as a "basic income". And it could replace welfare, unemployment insurance, the minimum wage, and public school spending.
The first thing to do is elect new progressive members in congress and support those who've been standing up and trying to protect and pass legislation that benefits us all. Secondly, we can not allow a republican to be elected president because they would launch an assault on us as commander and chief and work to undermine the movement. You can work with Obama he's reasonable - he has to do what he has to do given the enormous powers that be built up over the last 30 years or so. So, lets get a new peoples majority in congress because they write the laws, can pass amendments and control the purse strings. If you're not for Obama then at least vote against the republiCon nominee.
I agree with concerns about the movement being potentially hijacked OP. I have created a post for a potential simple list of goals, that I feel would work well in preventing the movement from being hijacked and unite the American people. Turn the "99%" into the 100%
Think outside the box of electoral politics, certainly outside the box of Republican and Democratic Party politics. OWS wants to do a lot more than pass a few laws or get somebody new elected. It wants a total transformation of society democratically from below. That's going to take a lot more than a few election cycles, or any election cycles or all imaginable election cycles.
there is good and bad politics but there will always be politics. i don't see a better alternative for obama who has been fighting for the 99% all along but is being sabotaged by the republicans and elites.
OWS needs to post a list of demands on their website and give visitors to the website to vote on each demand. eg. Right to work/ no more unions, a limit to campaign spending, no more money printing, restructure home loans now. etc. Which ever demands get the greatest number of votes over a defined period of time, should become the demands of OWS. They can get the names of the voters and use it as a petition as well.
It doesn't matter who gets elected. The elected answer to us regardless. We have the power of our voices and the power of our presence. When we are in the streets, shouting, declaring our rights, they must listen.
What have you accomplished in 2 months besides being in the streets and shouting?
Exactly! And the movement grows, becomes bigger, more people in the streets, more diverse. Yes. I do believe its working!
I can't speak for the people of OWS but I can give you my observations... I have followed this movement from the beginning. I have daily gone to their General Assembly website and read the minutes, their updates, the Working Groups pages etc.... From what I can tell OWS is not about putting in place anyone in Washington that will work for what they believe needs to be done to "fix" what is wrong. Perhaps I am wrong but it appears that OWS is working to change the system we have now.
I have consistently asked why they do not take their grievances to Washington and protest there, which to me would be the logical place to start. I always get the answer that it is Wall St that needs to be stopped, or taken down. And as they are very adamant about not making any demands it is hard to know what they really want to actually happen.
Anyway, that is my take on it... not "official" because I am not a part of OWS, but looking from the outside in.
This has been available for six weeks. I and others have been posting it for nearly as long. It was on some of the news programs (sorry not sure which ones).
Here is your demand list.
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
This is NOT an Occupy Wall Street document. "The 99 percent" is no longer a Working Group of OWS and this declaration was not put out by OWS. In fact on the New York City General Assembly web site this is the OWS declaraton:
http://www.nycga.net/resources/declaration/
As you can see they are two very different documents...... from 2 different groups.
Think you need to do a little research before you speak for OWS
I wasn't trying to speak for them, this is where I was directed five and a half weeks ago. I not you say 'no longer' so when I received the information it was evidently accurate and I was never informed of any change.
Now since you've given me a better link I will use it. May I ask why you haven't been posting a correct link these last few days?
I don't know why you think it is my responsibility to post links from the GA website..... You could have found it as easily as I did by going to the top of this website and clicking the NYCGA tab. The General Assembly website will give you the minutes from the OWS NYC general assemblies as well as the working groups information and minutes.....
If you want to know what is really going on with the OWS in the city that is where you should go.... this is just a forum and there is a lot of misinformation here.
And as you can see there have been no demands made by OWS.
It's not about changing anything, it is about collapsing the current system.
The system doesn't need their help..It's collapsing anyway.
Yes, I believe that this is what they want as well. But has any of them actually said that? No. And until they do we only have their actions to give us any idea as to what they are doing.
Many have said it in these forums and since the people behind OWS remain hidden, any and all ridiculousness spouted in these forums can be viewed as goals of OWS since everyone here has a voice. Without direction, chaos reigns.
Well, I don't take too much stock in the statements like that, that are made in this forum. The anonymity that the internet provides should automatically put you on alert... no one knows for sure who that person is or what they really believe, or if they are even actually involved with this movement.
I know there have been claims of "hidden" entities behind this movement, but as with everything else in this movement, there is nothing that you can actually track to prove that.
But I definitely agree with you, without boundaries humans can be a very nasty bunch...... and all it will take is one person to plant a seed of real disorder and then this movement will be more than just an annoyance.
It's Time to Change: Politics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M69LvvIypWM
Yeah, I heard Limbaugh say that too.
He's a jerk.
You sound like a right wing whiner.
Hey Hey!
Ho Ho!
The Repelican Party Has Got To Go!
Hey Hey!
Ho Ho!
We'll rest, when the World is Just.
You see, elections - crooked and rigged as they are - will NEVER change the current system. The 2 -party system is a pitiful joke. All insiders know that Pelosi and Boner (how ever he spells his name) get together and laugh at Americans who really think they can change ANYTHING by voting.
Its going to end when the American people wake up to the corruption of the U.S. Goverment.The Federal Reseve,Wall Street,Unions,Crony Capitalizum,And a return to the foundation of the Constatution of the U.S. We are stagnent with a two party system we need a Libitarian ticket and leader to truely have a balenced Goverment.I think we are all Libitarians if we truely think about it! Tea Party or OWS we are all calling for true change. Dont get hijacked by the two party system!
People woke up to this decades ago.
It will end when they find/receive/seize a means to do something about it, and foster the discipline and vigilance necessary to keep the ship of state on an even tack after that.
I don't think a three party system will help if campaign finance isn't addressed first. I don't know who coined the term 'separation of business and state' but I like it.
Sinad,Good point they dont take it to D.C.! Thats where the problem lays and since they dont one must conclude that Washington or the rats there in must play some roll in the movement. The Federal Reserve,Washinton D.C. and Wall Street are one entity.Palosie and insider trading,while the rest of Americans suffer they tweak the game in there favor because the make the rules.
None of the above, compromised from the get go..
Just as I thought.
We need direct democracy to bypass the politicians, the banks and Wall Street. Please spread the word: http://vote.org/
Good luck! From the looks of it. You're all going to need it.
OWS = Amateur Hour
I see posts and replies like this and they get me to thinking...
Amateur Hour.
We built a nation on Amateur Hour, when you get right down to it. British citizens wanting a change, wanting a different kind of governance...never having written a Constitution previously.
I'm not comparing OWS to those fine men, but I am pointing out that amateur hour is basically something that has not been done previously, there is no recipe...
Agree or not, it is interesting, it does bring people together to talk as evidenced by this forum and it brings out the best and the worst in all of us.
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Sinad,Good point they dont take it to D.C.! Thats where the problem lays and since they dont one must conclude that Washington or the rats there in must play some roll in the movement. The Federal Reserve,Washinton D.C. and Wall Street are one entity.Palosie and insider trading,while the rest of Americans suffer they tweak the game in there favor because the make the rules.
Could it be the OWS is a 1% puppet masquerading as the 99%.
BTW, who is John Galt?
John Galt is the name of my dog...Yes and he too considers himself a "producer" ...He just produced something on my carpet!....Galt get in the crate!
Ok, I think most of us have read Atlas Shrugged.
It could be. Corporations WANT more regulation and controls, because they get their lobbyists to write them.
Unions are afraid their money tree is going to die soon.
Here's basically how it works in a nutshell.
The majority of public sector unions (govt workers like, teachers, cops, etc.) get the bulk of their pension and health care paid for by the govt, with YOUR TAXES. Sweet isn't it? You pay your OWN pensions and health care and THEN you pay theirs.
Out of the dues that are collected, the union donates tons of money to Democrats who in turn give the unions outrageously generous contracts with almost free health care and big pensions with lax rules so it's easy to make huge pensions for life, again paid for by TAXES (still your money).
Wouldn't you like something that sweet? You work 20 30 years and then can retire with your health insurance for life and a sometimes a tax free pension. And usually if you put in a lot of overtime in your last few years, you can probably get as much (usually much more) in pension for the rest of your life thanks to Dems giving out those great contracts to the unions.
Oh and these govt jobs pay much more than their private sector counterpart on top of it. Most unions do not let union members have a choice about what happens to their dues. This is another thing they keep fighting for, to not allow members to choose for themselves how to use their own dues.
So to sum it up. You pay for workers who get more money for your job than you do and you pay for their pensions and health insurance as well as your own.
This is why unions always show up and support the Dems. They wash each others hands.
If I got something wrong here let's hear it.
Also, I'll ask the question I always do for someone to give me a sensible answer on.
Why should private sector have to pay public sector pensions and benefits as well as their own? Anyone?
Divide and Conquer is the corporate program. They built the Tea Party to split those with pensions and health care from those without. The goal is to eliminate health care and pensions for everyone.
We don't want to take away health care and retirement, and we don't begrudge people who have it. We want heal;th care and pensions for everyone.
Stop drinking the Kool Aid. Unions have problems, and many are in need of reform, but the things they have are things we all need, not things that should be taken away.
OneVoice Im a union member with a large union they back and support canidates I dont.I have no voice in that matter,and certenly dont want my extorted money going to those I dont support.And by the way William Ares,ACORN,Unions,and the Socialist Party of the U.S.are the founders of the movement.All unions should be broken up and band from the country.Right to work for all States,no Unions for Public sector workers!
Why is everyone so afraid to say it like it is with Obama. Do you k-n-o-w how much blood that man has on his hands?
The unions didn't hijack OWS, the unions started OWS... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0PlElVWshk&feature=related Note the post date.