Forum Post: OWS message lost in this Forum
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 20, 2011, 2:23 p.m. EST by Indepat
(924)
from Minneola, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
This message board is proof that the original message and intent of OWS is being diluted and lost.
One issue people, getting the money out of Washington so that the 1% can't buy direct influence. Everything else is just a symptom. Everything else is just a distraction.
The more we talk about issues that can be classified as Republican or Democratic, Liberal or Conservative, the closer we come to OWS devolving into your run of the mill false argument distraction that got us here in the first place.
But what is the movement? If it's to get the money and direct influence out of Washington, then why talk about all the other stuff. Until that is fixed nothing else really matters. We must go after the root causes, not the symptoms.
We got to this place because both parties pit us against each other with these false choices and false arguments of Liberalism vs. Conservatism.
We stay on this past we increase the chance of alienating those we need and again falling into an endless sea of distraction.
+1
Ignore the trolls and vote harvesters, or call them on their bullshit. But totally, focus on the real issue at hand, and nuke the bribes.
I'm voting No Confidence across the board as they're all on the take, and no vote harvester gonna convince me otherwise. The politicians themselves will have to prove to me they're not on the take, fuck their weasels.
There all on the take. They operate in system that promotes and rewards those who play by the rules of the game. We must change the rules first.
I agree, OWS goes beyond liberal/conservative, but I wouldn't give up on the forum. Just post on the threads that you find interesting and engaging, not the ones that are just about ranting.
Do you have any suggestions on how to get people past the blue/red paradigm?
I just think the movement needs to get organized. It needs to have a clear vision, clear direction. It lacks focus. If this continues it will die a quick death.
Like with the civil right movements, there were many, many injustices that needed to be corrected, but in the end they settled in on the root cause, and that was equality. This movement needs to do the same or it won't last the winter.
I suspect OWS may have more focus than we are able to witness through the internet or youtube or the inadequate mainstream media coverage.
I'm planning on writing a letter to my congress people on what I feel strongly about in terms of the OWS movement. I'm also planning on participating in bank transfer day. These actions make me feel like I'm acting with direction.
The most important message that I've taken from OWS is that we should all stand up for our beliefs and not stay quiet. Take Action! Even if it is small.
I agree, but there needs to me more. It just won't last if there's not more than people acting randomly.
I think the beauty of this movement is, in part, the randomness. It's new and messy. Don't give up, the people in New York haven't given up and gone home yet. If you can, go to a local Occupy protest. Make a lot of noise to the people you know!
That's great for the start, but it needs to be more if it's going to achieve it's goals.
This forum is more about ranting and trolling. Once in a while you see good ideas and discussions.
To anyone interested in strengthening the OWS movement I recommend TheMultitude.org as a complimentary venue for disscussion and solidarity.
An #OccupyWallStreet Companion Forum
http://www.themultitude.org/forum/
Exactly. If I want to see read or hear or see this I can listen to talk radio or some news network.
This not about any and every issue that pops into someones head, it's about getting the pay for influence environment out of Washington.
Don't doubt that people with money will try to make you look as radical as possible. Your goal shouldn't be to be different but to be right and practical.
Not sure what you mean. But yes, they won't go down without a fight.
These people have MONEY. They fund Republican think tanks whose sole purpose is to devise strategy, talking points and covert methods to subvert democracy in favor of the top 1%. I have no doubt that they will infiltrate you. And if they can't control you they will try to make you look bad.
They fund both parties. There is no difference between the parties, they both work for the 1%.And sure they spread it around, to think tanks, in the media, but that's not the problem, it's that they use money to purchase direct control over our government. Propaganda is one thing, writing legislation and directing policy is another.
You don't trust the progressives?
I don't trust the system. I don't trust the political process in Washington.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you don't look for allies you won't find any.
Well don't look to Washington for any allies. They already have powerful allies, the 1%.
I simply don't agree. Bernie Sanders is not owned by the 1%. There are some honest progressives in Washington.
They all are. You just don't get to stick around if your not contributing to the greater cause. They all talk a mean game to their audience, then sign off on legislation that goes directly against their supposed values and ideals.
I think you're wrong. Maybe you should look at the voting records.
Voting records only tell a very small pat of the story. Take a look at what they are voting on, and not just the nice title but the actual legislation that never seems to do anything but serve the 1%.
'Indepat' in response to your last question you put to me , i think i have posted a perfectly sound topic that offers the Best Answer, and possibly a solution to those in need of some kind of ' OWS CRY'..
http://occupywallst.org/forum/who-says-the-ows-doesnt-have-demands/#comment-169030
Feel Free to comment to me there. Marlow
AGREED. But you're glossing over the other main message: The process. Direct democracy. Consensus (respect, minority voices heard; minority objections respected and included). We are the demands; we are the message, exactly because we take part in this process (but we aren't doing it on this forum, so your point stands). I'm doing this in my own community. I urge everyone here to do the same.
We can agree to disagree, I still feel that those are just symptoms. The root cause is the money used to purchase direct influence in Washington. Stop that and the rest will fall into place.
I actually believe that agreeing to disagree goes against this process, but okay =)
By doing direct democracy, we find solutions to the problem that you're describing. This is how we can get our government back, because I DO agree with you, moneyed influence in Washington is the problem. If you haven't been to a real general assembly, you should go. It might change your opinion.
Agree! There needs to be an official public statement of the #1 goal - equal and fair representation in government (while we reserve the right to add more demands later!).
We are going around in circles with the other topics here. All other relevant issues can be debated later after fair representation is enacted in our government.
We are stuck here, going in circles. We need to break through to the next level! This demand needs to go OFFICIAL and PUBLIC!
Exactly. There is a single issue here, a root cause, everything else is just a symptom. Going with any and all issues also serves to distract and divide us. Need a unified front, organized behind an issue everyone can get behind, getting the money and special interest out of Washington.
I wonder if there is a way we can force the issue, somehow inundate this board with this single message.
Inundate the board is the only thing I can come up with. I've been talking with therising about the same thing! If you see him out here, give him a shout out. He feels the same way.
Actually, here's a link you can find him with. http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-scenario-for-how-the-movement-might-successful/#comment-165363
He and I have been discussing this. I suggested we switch the order. 1 - Go public with Campaign Finance Reform. 2 - Demand direct Congressional action 3- Elect delegates to unseat those in Congress who vote no.
There is some SUPPORT already in Congress. I have to believe these people would help us. I'm not sure if all the details of this legislation are right, but it is a start.
http://fairelectionsnow.org/about-bill
Thanks, I'll go to that link. And yes, there needs to be an actual plan.
you have to develop a 'Thick Skin' when on any Board. Realizing there are going to be people with nothing to do but get negative attention, or hate everything from A to Z...and own a PC.
Unfortunately it comes with the Territory, and you learn what's what.. Dont Step in Shyt, ...Walk around it!.
Best to you.. Marlow
I don't care about people taking shots at me, or just general hating. I care about forcing real change, and the longer we sit around discussing the symptoms and not the root cause the greater the chance that this thing will fail.
Indepat.. i get that. However, try to look at it this way.. The more there ARE sitting around is 'Good'.. and the More they are Talking about the issues.. even better.. so Nothing is bad about 'Being there' , and Talking about it... The more we discuss, the bigger chance of agreement. Agree?
No One is more rooted in the 'Cause', nor more willing to make an effort than i and those who work with me..
My Web site (See my profile).. is Sponsoring a Petition to 'Stop the corruption from Wall street to the 'Hill'.. we have been fighting for the last full 4 years to get the Facts out there.. and attack those who would and have Denied us Justice...
Here is just another way to Fight.. and it is being Passed around the Camps by the OWS ... http://www.thepetitionsite.com/8/stop-the-corruption-on-wall-street/ TY, and have a wonderful weekend, Marlow
I agree, but I think the longer it lacks focus the quicker people will begin to lose interest. I just don't see this as being sustainable. A cause as important as this needs focus.
Your cause is great. It's the most important issue, but like you said you've been fighting for 4 years. This OWS and all the other ones that are popping up is unprecedented as far as numbers and focus. This is our one chance to really demand true and actual change. This is it, and if we fail to move forward, right now, then we will lose this momentum and this opportunity.
You can agree or not, but I truly feel this way. That this is the most important issue of our time and that the moment is right now and that we cannot let it slip away.
Great job on your efforts.
actually i have been fighting the Graft on Wall street for over 7.. just ..40 years on Political Issues of Human Rights.. and just 4 years with petitions... Which, with the OWS only Beginning, we have that fuel for change.
.. I have no idea how many Protests you have engaged in, but i would like to offer you this.. being that my first protest was in DC to change the voting Age from 21 to 18.. ( we won, obviously).. and all the Way to today's OWS Movement.. THIS is only the Second time the WORLD has sat up, and not only Taken Notice, but has put boots and shoes to Ground in Solidarity. ( the Last was for South African Civil Rights and their Independence.).. That went well too.
... 'Patience'.. is the Second thing to have when you take the time to make an effort towards Change.
TY for the opportunity to respond to your Interests here. Marlow
You obviously have more experience with this than I do, and I now have a little more optimism with this. This is an extraordinary moment in time. I'm just afraid we will let it slip away.
Can I ask you this question, don't most movements if not all needs a singular focus? And don't they need leadership. I can't think of one that worked with neither. If you look at these posts they are all over the place, and in my personal opinion serve only to divide and distract from the real issue.
( rely to you is in 'comment'.)
If enough signatures can be obtained, this could make a real difference - the Congress Reform Act 2011 (see below), then use the following link to sign the petition on the White House website - http://wh.gov/gpQ
We petition the obama administration to: Congress Reform Act 2011
No Tenure/No Pension. A Congressperson will collect a salary while in office and receive no pay when they leave office.Congress participates in Social Security. All funds in the Congressional retirement fund to be frozen/terminated immediately. Congress purchases own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. They will submit a report to their constituents. Upon citizen approval pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3% maximum. Congress participates in same healthcare system as the people.Congress must abide same laws as the people. *Only two terms allowed. Serving in Congress is an honor not a career.
It's a good idea, but you can't ask them to reform themselves. Sure, they might pass something, and it will have a nice shinny exterior and a catchy name, but it will be gutted, riddled with loop holes, allowing them to go on with business as usual, leaving the masses thinking something has actually changed.
We can't leave it up to them. We must change it our selves.
obviously needed a wiki as an emergency 3 weeks ago. obviously theadmin has given us the shaft on that. what else can be said?
Both the far right and far left will say that their solution (Radical Change) is the only solution to the fundamental issues causing what is wrong with the world, so as you can read in the responses to this post and your last one on this issue, it is very difficult to find consensus.
If OWS would actually present a coat of arms and give a list of demands, then debate could be focused and the radicals will go home and hate the world in the peace and quiet of their living rooms or around their camp fires. I want to be a part of a movement that actually supports resonable and directed change, and I'll even stand up beside both libertarians and communists in demanding that change, but I don't think they will stand will me in the middle.
Until OWS caucuses and presents actual solutions then like PlasmaStorm says, they are just trouble makers. I see the hate, now what is the solution.
You're exactly right. That's why this needs to become organized, focused, with a single, concise message. It needs structure, leadership and direction. without it you have chaos and anarchy.
I would argue that even money in politics is a symptom and they monetary system itself is the root cause. We can fight to remove the lobbying, coruption and corporate political contributions in Washington, but until we redefine what money is and who gets it the same shit will eventually happen again. I don't claim to have all of the answers and getting money out of Washington is absolutely a top priority, but we need to attack the source of wealth so no person or corporation can accumulate that much wealth to buy off poloticians i nthe first place. I propose reducing or eliminating our arbitrary tax system and start focusing on taxing the source of wealth through a land tax system. Currently out model of taxation is beased on nothing in reality and is only a collection of opinions. Land is the source of where all wealth is generated and it's no surprise that the ruling classes throughout history have owned a significant majority o the land. There is an infinite source of wealth from land through developing new technologies.
The theory of economic rent has been around for some time, but land taxation has seldom been implemented throughout history. It is well known that the factors of production are composed of land, labor and capital. Land, in the economic sense, can be explained as anything with a productive capacity that has not been created by men or women, but has value created by the community. Labor is any human energy spent , whether by the mind or through brute force, that contributes to a means of production. Capital is mainly what is spent from savings for future production. Under the current system, mainly labor and capital are taxed, while the landed elite make out like bandits with the rents that are created by the community! It is no surprise that civilizations have suffered from vast inequalities since the founding of the first governments.
What we need to fight for is a redistribution of these economic rents for the sake of the people, while at the same time reducing the tax rates on labor and capital. These rents from land are the source of all wealth and are presently held by a small number of wealthy people who will speculate and slow there productive capacity in order to increase profits.
This demand goes out to the people of OWS! If there is one thing we need to change in order to promote equality, environmental protection and job creation through increased productive capacity, this is the solution we need. Please read about economic rent and land taxation in order to fully grasp the concept.
This is something proven in theory and not based on anyone's personal opinion or ideology. While we are divided on many things, it's time to come together with some real demands to benefit the majority of unrepresented individuals of the world. Lets show the top 1% that we know where their unearned wealth is coming from and that we know exactly what is needed in order to bring them back to the real world!
I don't think that was the original intent, but allow too many hands in the pot and this could morph into anything and everything. Needs to get it's act together. Needs to get a clear vision, objective and it needs to remain peaceful.
This message board should be shut down.
It doesn't represent anything.
Follow some of the links at the top and go on Twitter or Facebook for a better online representation of what's really happening.
What links? please help. This is getting ridiculous.
there is also another forum at http://www.occupyr.com/
Is it a little more coherent than this site?
I don't see that happening. I see a wide diversity of opinions that represents the movement. Read through the forum constantly and you will be able to separate the wheat from the chaff.
your time would be better spent helping to connect and expand the network. it's still pretty fragmented and relies on forums that have been limited by geography for some reason. i have started by going to groups in my surrounding area and introducing them to forums that everyone can come together on. if you dare, i have a list of those forums on my blog http://blog.richardkentgates.com they are organized and lagit.
OWS is a process. Everyone knows that now! Through the process a party has formed, Dirt Baggers Party.
It needs to become more than just a process. Just because it's all over the place and disorganized doesn't mean there is a real issue here.
It starts with a party name.
It needs to start with the formation of a real organization with strong leadership, followed by a clear and concise message, visions and goal.
Indepat, how would you respond if I said that the original goal of the movement was to cause trouble? And I'll provide evidence. The original blog post from Adbusters about Occupy Wall Street said that they wanted "a change in revolutionary tactics" and especially a Tahrir moment. Tahrir is a reference to the violent standoff between Egyptian government and their protesters.
Now if you actually LOOK at what the OWS protesters have tried to do, it's provoke the police and try to claim, falsely, that they are being persecuted. They're trying to claim police brutality at every turn, but there is obviously no police brutality.
Doug Schoen, a democrat, released a poll yesterday showing that 31% of 200 actual OWS protesters he surveyed said they would support violence to advance their cause. This isn't a peace movement, it's about causing as much trouble as possible.
I'm calling bullshit.
Schoen works for a Murdoch media outlet, ergo he's a lying hack. Most of the so-called reporters in mainstream media are twofaced liars, and not to be trusted. Their only goal is to brainwash and confuse.
Plasma is a troll.
Yes he is. It's why I call bullshit on everything coming out of his keyboard.
Dude, he didn't make up those numbers. If anything, the "violence" number is higher than 30 percent because the question itself is scandalous. It suffers from a nay-say bias; people don't answer "yes" when doing so could make them look bad. So the actual response was 31% but it's probably closer to 45%.
Bullshit. 'nuff said.