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Forum Post: OWS is a Social movement Not a Political one

Posted 11 years ago on Nov. 12, 2011, 5:31 a.m. EST by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Voting? Politics? Are you kidding? This is what the OWS is NOT about. Corporations control our government and our economy. Voting has done and will do nothing to change anything. The OWS should continue to do actions on the streets (and, in my opinion, in the homes of people that are facing foreclosure/eviction) to make real change. NOT to get involved in politics. OWS is a social movement, NOT a political movement.

309 Comments

309 Comments


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[-] 3 points by bsimon (5) 11 years ago

No wonder that this movement is disorganized, just look at some comments. Some of you may remember, in 80's there was something called Solidarity movement in Poland, it changed face of Europe and helped to end Soviet Empire. It worked because all citizens engaged in one country wide protest with all unions actively backing protesters. Remember this country is broken not only because lack of jobs, Wall Street deregulation or expensive tuition with "loan shark" rates, this country is broken because democracy stopped working in present form, money rules not only Wall Street but every elective office, we need to change only one law to fix majority of problems. Outlaw paid lobbying, our society have been effectively "castrated" by media and politicians, we do not pay attention to real sources of our problems and OWS, stop kidding yourself nothing will change unless it will have some organized structure.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 11 years ago

"Both parties are rotten - how could they not be, given the complete infestation of the political system by corporate money on a scale that now requires a presidential candidate to raise upwards of a billion dollars to be competitive in the general election?"

Agree to your comment, bsimon. I think Campaign Finance Reform is something everyone but the financiers can agree on. Problem is when you ask the people that agree if they will join, they just say "I don't really care all that much."

Apathy is a disease. Tyler Dirden in fight club once said

"It is only after we lose everything that we are free to do anything."

I fear that a lot of people have to lose everything before they are willing to fight for their rights.

I don't want to lose everything. I want my rights back. I want the rights our founding fathers fought in battle for so we could have a prosperous America.

Now all we have is a devaluing US dollar. Why do you think they keep giving themselves CEO bonuses? Even their US dollar is decreasing in value.

[-] 1 points by whisper (212) 11 years ago

This country is broken because the ideas of the Declaration of Independence (All humans are created with equal rights, among these rights are life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness; governments are instituted amongst men to protect these rights) were not incorporated into the constitution. The most important idea is that government exists to protect individual rights. A government with THIS as its sole purpose would require far less funding, run far more efficiently, and provide an environment in which people could improve the quality of their OWN lives, rather than demanding that someone else (government or 'the rich') do it for them.

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[-] 0 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

what are you smoking? same thing as me?

[-] -1 points by RexDiamond (585) from Idabel, OK 11 years ago

You will never be able to pull off a movement like that here. Never. We are historically very different than Europe - especially Poland.

[-] 1 points by skizzy (445) 11 years ago

Ha ha .... Keep watching or join

[-] 0 points by RexDiamond (585) from Idabel, OK 11 years ago

I've been watching. What's going to happen?

[-] 1 points by skizzy (445) 11 years ago

Dollar and euro go to real value ... 0 .... Followed by world currencies ... China .. Russia have been building gold silver reserves ... Whole world blams USA ... American People blam government ...

[-] 0 points by RexDiamond (585) from Idabel, OK 11 years ago

I am aware of the financial situation. What does this have to do with what OWS is going to do? What is OWS going to do about that?

[-] 1 points by skizzy (445) 11 years ago

What do you want them to do ? ...

[-] 0 points by RexDiamond (585) from Idabel, OK 11 years ago

What I want is irrelevant. What I want is a clear understanding of what OWS is going to do to help remedy this situation. I want a clear explanation besides some vague answer like "take action through the people, or get rid of money."

People want to know what that means. What steps is OWS going to take to save us from the economic meltdown

[-] 1 points by skizzy (445) 11 years ago

I don't think much can be done to save us now ... But it is much like the liberty trees befor the American revolution ... Places to meet and discuss and make decisions ... Right now OWS are exposing the police state and the corrupt system and how both political parties are the same...

[-] 0 points by RexDiamond (585) from Idabel, OK 11 years ago

I disagree. OWS is making the left look more and more unappealing. Thursday will be the final nail.

[-] 1 points by skizzy (445) 11 years ago

What about when OWS attacks democrates ?

[-] 1 points by skizzy (445) 11 years ago

K ... Whatever troll ... If it wasn't working you would be doing something else right now

[-] 0 points by RexDiamond (585) from Idabel, OK 11 years ago

This is one of the most interesting groups of people of our time. People don't want to miss it.

[-] 2 points by sinead (474) 11 years ago

Social movement??? For who? Certainly not the 99% in this country OWS claims to be standing up for. Not when 29,000$ is spent to send 20 people to "monitor" the Egypt elections......

Not when OWS rails about the money Wally St "steals" from the American citizens when so many are unemployed and losing everything, then turns around and approves over 4200$ so their Arts and Culture Working Group can build "monuments" and have costuming for their upcoming protest on the 17th.

Not when 5,000$ is approved for the Screen Printers Guild Working Group for supplies to make TShirts......

I could go on... All of this is just as bad as Congress and their 16$ muffins!

When MLK took the Civil Rights movement to the streets I wonder what his "budget" was? When the youth of the 60s and 70s protested the Vietnam war I wonder if they worried about "monuments" and costuming?

Nothing is being accomplished, this isn't Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen or Syria. You are not going to "overthrow" our government and establish your "direct democracy" for the "people". If you want to see change you have to actually do something other than "occupy" public spaces and carry signs.....This has become nothing more than a circus with the performers all clamoring for attention of their special interests.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

what did you say exactly?

[-] 1 points by sinead (474) 11 years ago

What do you mean ??

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[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 11 years ago

That is ridiculous.

The People's Right to Assemble was articulated and enshrined by Political Assembly.

WE Stand upon that right.

WE Exercise that right in ways those who would attempt to direct the future of this nation find inconvenient at best.

When communities are faced with the prospect of mass arrest - That is Political.

It Costs Taxpayer Money. That means municipal budgetary decisions previously made must be rethought.

That is Political.

You may have a certain difficulty - a cognitive dissonance if you will - with the term politics and everything associated with it today - but make no mistake.

Demanding an end to things like economic injustice IS political. We are already involved with politics - whether you accept that fact or not.

[-] 2 points by aahpat (1407) 11 years ago

I am incited and excited by the passion of OWS.

I am depressed and disconsolate about the ignorance and lack of focus of OWS.

Standing in the streets screaming for change without defining that change is fruitless. You can see that in Egypt. Nothing changed because the people did not define the change that they wanted. They simplistically screamed the word without any form or structure and so the military was able to fill the void with their power. Nothing changed but the faces in charge.

Wall Street controls our lives because they have corrupted Washington. They have corrupted our state houses.

If you want an end to the corruption of Wall Street that is victimizing you, your friends and families then you need to focus on and attack the achievements of Wall Street's corruption not simplistically its existence.

Attack the people in politics who are corrupted.

Attack the body politic that they have corrupted.

Attack the corrupt laws that they have imposed on us all.

OWs is a significant power. If it does not apply that power where it is most effective it will achieve nothing.

The OWS in Ohio proved this by focusing and joining their power with that of others.

The OWS in Iowa know this and are applying it to the Iowa caucuses with great effect. The parties fear their mass power. The parties will change motivated by that fear if the OWS defines what it wants them to change. If it demands specific and articulate change rather than simply screaming the word change for the sake of screaming the empty word change.

OWS is capable of being the greatest political and social force America has seen since the aCivil Rights and anti War movements of the 1960-70's. But it needs to understand its own power and apply it articulately to achieve real change.

[-] 2 points by HenryofPrussia (9) from North Bergen, NJ 11 years ago

Plutocrats fear the meme. They would be brought to justice by the 99%.

[-] 2 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

why are people talking anarchy? when the present system is replaced, Americans being the intelligent, pragmatic and resourceful can-do types will keep order. They will keep order not because its profitable, but, because its constructive and positive. when people talk of anarchy happening because of the end of the present system, they are assuming the worst of Americans - that Americans are greedy children who are selfish and self-centered. true, a lot of Americans are this - especially the ones who are angry at the occupy movement. but, most of America is different, the 99% are different than that. We have the capacity to do anything, if we want to.

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[-] -1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Did you know that the install script of this website uses the preset password "anarchy" for the admin section? Kinda strange for a movement that has nothing to do with anarchy. No?

Look near the end of the install instructions.

https://github.com/jart/occupywallst

"There's also a backend for modifying the database and writing articles. Go to http://occupywallst.dev/admin/ and log in as user "OccupyWallSt" with the password "anarchy"."

[-] -1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Do you know what anarchy means?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

a system of governance, at a nation state level that goes to lengths to avoid the use of coercion, violence, force and authority, while still producing a productive and desirable society.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Yes, that is an anarchy. It is actually a definition made by David Graeber that appears in one of his latest essays. I would give you some links, but I can tell you are not the type who likes to read and learn.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

really, ok then, I can tell that you are a gay male that likes to smoke pole and doesn't know shit. I mean, fair is fair. If you can label me, I can label you - if personal attacks somehow help us reach a logical conclusion. wow....

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

I just find it funny that some people support Occupy and don't even know it is an anarchy.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

i find it funny that some people think that the occupy movement is an anarchy.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Why it is funny? The person who started it is an anarchist, the symbol of the fist is an anarchist symbol, the color black is the anarchist color... Did you read the links I posted for you?

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 11 years ago

The problem is that your definition is British and not American. David Graeber is no longer American in the sense that a) he lives in London and b) he was denied a continued position at Yale. Why do you suppose he's pushing "anarchy"?

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Those are desperately poor arguments.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 11 years ago

Yea, you're right... what we need is a world in isolation where all things are possible. I don't like the direction, either. Many of his rants exactly duplicate my own.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

the term "anarchy" typically is meant to refer to a society which lacks publicly recognized government or violently enforced political authority... nothing in there about "leaders" go away dumb ass.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Here is an interesting set of posts send out from Occupy organizers who explain why the movement is an anarchy. Very interesting, and it's easy to read since it's just forum posts. You don't have to have experience reading books. Perfect.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/lghgf/dear_occupiers_a_letter_from_anarchists/

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

these posts in an anarchy forum are not from occupy organizers. " Dear Occupiers: A Letter from Anarchists (nefac.net)" is what it is called and its from the Libertarian Communist Federation / Federación Comunista Libertaria. This is how they describe themselves on their website:

"The Libertarian Communist Federation An Introduction to the Libertarian Communist Federation Common Struggle / Lucha Común is a bi-lingual (English and Spanish) organization of revolutionaries from the northeastern region of North America who identify with the communist tradition within anarchism. We oppose all forms of oppression and exploitation, and struggle for a classless, stateless, non-hierarchical society."

Being a true American Citizen and not a "consumer", it is the habit of those that are citizens to check everything out and not take other people's word for things. In other words, to think for ourselves.

All your "arguments" have just plunged to zero value.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

You know David Graeber right? He organized Occupy. He organized it in the anarchist-syndicalist tradition of anarchy in 1930's Spain. His father is from Spain. The direct democracy that you are using was his idea and it's an anarchist tool. Same with general strikes, and the idea of occupying. Occupying is a major tactic of anarchists and has been used for hundreds of years.

I'm not interested in winning an argument against you. You can believe what you want that's fine. I just think you should inform yourself about Occupy. It seems strange to me that you would participate in a protest that you don't even understand.

I think we don't have much more to argue. I'll leave you with a very good article that explains how OWS started. It's up to you if you want to read it. It's your life, your knowledge. Again, I don't think anarchy is bad and I think it's wonderful that you are protesting against the major problems of today's society.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/david-graeber-the-antileader-of-occupy-wall-street-10262011.html

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

jesus fucking christ. the link you posted has nothing to do with adbusters or the occupy movement. maybe you should go look at the link again. you are talking out of your ASS.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

no, I was talking out of my ass. I'm going through the article now. Good post Thrasymaque.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Here. The article linked from AdBusters own website. Perhaps that makes you happier. The link is just under the AdBuster Logo.

http://www.adbusters.org/content/businessweek-david-graeber-anti-leader-occupy

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

I see. You are missing the point. People like Mr. Graeber are involved in the occupy movement. There are many others besides Mr. Graeber, but, the point is he and the others are not important. the occupy movement doesn't need leaders. the people in consensus are the leaders. that is where the power is. I understand. You are looking for where the leadership, and therefore, "power" comes from. I think I can see that it is very disconcerting for you that there is no "seat of power" where the strategy and "battle plans" flow from. Well, there you have it. You have to be able to trust and share in a system based on how the occupy movement operates. It takes maturity and responsibility to make your own decisions and not to defer them to some higher intellect or power. I think I'm beginning to understand how this is really uncomfortable for you.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

and if I had first read the article, I would have seen that this is what its about.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

I am NOT looking for leaders or power. Iv'e been telling you since 100 posts ago that Occupy is an anarchy. That means it DOES NOT have leaders. That what an anarchy is. I DO NOT think anarchies are necessarily bad. The only thing I said is that Occupy is an anarchic movement that uses direct democracy to make decisions. This means IT DOES NOT HAVE leaders. David Graeber is the one who planned it this way. He designed the movement. He chose for it to use direct democracy.

Man, you are dense. Are you frozen in Zuccotti or something? You can't seem to understand an argument. You don't listen at all. I NEVER said Occupy had leaders. I said it was an ANARCHY. Anarchy means NO leaders.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

Actually, I've been re-reading the article. Its very compelling. I have no additional comments to make on it yet. I need to take the time. But, I promise you, I will (as I always do) approach it with no pre-conceptions OR approach it ready to have my pre-conceptions dashed on the rocks. Give me some time to absorb instead of talk. I won't be posting for a while as I do this. Maybe you have something here. But, for myself, I don't know yet. I need to look and dig. Thanks for your discussion. Hopefully, talk to you soon.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Did you read the article? It explains how Occupy started. I guess you are illiterate.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/lghgf/dear_occupiers_a_letter_from_anarchists/ this site is an anarchist site which i already spoke of in a previous post.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

"It would be wrong to call Graeber a leader of the protesters, since their insistently nonhierarchical philosophy makes such a concept heretical. Nor is he a spokesman, since they have refused thus far to outline specific demands. Even in Zuccotti Park, his name isn’t widely known." --Yes it would be wrong.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

the article is dated Oct. 26th. this is now Nov. 13. how many other articulate people have spoken ABOUT and not FOR the occupy movement? do you consider me the voice of the occupy movement? are you looking for a leader with faults and character flaws to shoot down? there is a reason that intelligent and pragmatic Americans have chosen a consensus based structure - one without leaders. the "flaws" of individuals are voted out and the strengths of individuals are voted in. this makes it very compelling and capable in regards to action and change.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

He's the architect of the protest. The one who decided to use anarchic methods like direct democracy. Adbusters were planning to use a normal style hierarchic protest, Graeber changed all that. He's the brains behind Occupy. The designer.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

no, he is not. where is that in the article? also, I notice the article does not have an author. how strange is that? is bloomberg corporation now considered a person?

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

The article is about 7 pages long. Did you read all of it? It explains the first meeting of Occupy and how he and is anarchist friend Sagri changed the plans for the protest so that it would be based on anarchy.

Tulak. I think we can stop the discussion. If you don't understand that Occupy is an anarchist movement, what can I say? Why don't you ask the people next time when you go to a general assembly. Gee whizz, don't you see the back fist on the top left of this page??? That's an anarchist logo.

[-] 1 points by fredastaire (203) 11 years ago

do you mean conceptually or literally anarchy?

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

The best would be to read the article for yourself. Here is a version on anarchistnews.org. It was originally published in Business week, but I prefer the layout on this site since it's in one page. It is a very interesting read.

http://anarchistnews.org/node/16624

You can also check out Graeber's essays at the anarchist library:

http://theanarchistlibrary.org/authors/David_Graeber.html

[-] 1 points by fredastaire (203) 11 years ago

Ok, that would make it conceptual anarchy. Conceptual anarchy is based more on chaos theory than the actual definition. right on.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Can you do me a favor and tell tulak once and for all that Occupy is based on anarchy. He doesn't believe me and he's freezing his balls in Zuccotti.

[-] 1 points by fredastaire (203) 11 years ago

LOL. most of these people are not anything like they say, where they say, or who they say they are. It's a waste of time talking directly to most of the users on this forum. That is why I continue to make threads and let those interested reply to it. Also why I set up citicommons. To separate those who have something to offer and a willingness to stand behind it from the many that just want to troll, or play house. I grant you, it's not as exciting as this forum yet, but once we have 30-50 writers, it will be.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

I see your point. If you need writers let me know.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

You are wrong. You simply don't know it. An anarchy is the antonym of hierarchy. It is a system without leaders where everyone is equal. Anarchy does not mean violence. There are many types of anarchies. Why don't you read articles about David Graeber and Occupy. You can checkout anarchy on Wikipedia. OWS is organized in the anarcho-syndicalist tradition of 1930 Spain.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

hierarchy? that's all that exists? top down? trickle down? have you ever heard of cooperation? that has nothing to do with hierarchy. are you such a corporate butt slave that you cannot imagine any other system? there are plenty of examples. you've just shut your eyes - I guess to block out the view of your own butt rape as a consumer.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Yes, cooperation would be an anarchy and that is what Occupy is about.

I made a little song for you:

  • When it's not hierarchy, it's anarchy

  • Let's work together you and me

  • Let's cooperate in anarchy

  • When it's not hierarchy, it's anarchy

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

oh, sorry, I get it. ok, goodbye.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

who cares? is the present system of government and economics working? is it? I don't care who is to blame. just answer the question. is the present system working?

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

I don't think it is working at all. I never said it was. Why the sudden change of subject?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

the sudden change of subject? you're a nut case. what do you think the occupy movement is all about? you're the one that changed the subject.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

The Occupy movement is about anarchy.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

no, its not

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

do you? it doesn't mean "leaderless". better edumacate yourself.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Oxford

ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: via medieval Latin from Greek anarkhia, from anarkhos, from an- ‘without’ + arkhos ‘chief, ruler.’

Anarchy means a system without hierarchy, without leader(s). It is the antonym or hierarchy.

You know, I have nothing against anarchies. I don't think they are necessarily bad. I find them quite interesting.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

the people are the leader. they lead themselves. we don't need an individual to lead us. by the way, from the 16th century? things have been pretty screwed up since then. what do you say we try something better? huh? cuz, things are pretty fucked up right now. or do you deny that?

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

That's the etymology of the word anarchy. When you say, the people are the leaders, they lead themselves. You are talking about an anarchy. Don't you know David Graeber started OWS? He's a famous anarchist. You are so funny.

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[-] 1 points by barb (835) 11 years ago

Is there any truth that the OWS movement's members has become detached from the people in the park protesting? Its on the news tonight.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 11 years ago

I don't see how you can just demonstrate for change, then expect it to happen without getting into the nuts and bolts of making it happen through political action. Strictly social actions are nothing more then temper tantrums.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

So, I guess the 1st amendment (bill of rights) is a temper tantrum?: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 11 years ago

The amendment itself isn't. It allows for us to express our dissatisfaction with government. All protests are a tantrum of sorts, if everyone was happy there wouldn't be any protest. Anger with a corrupt system should be expressed, but those with a grievance shouldn't just demonstrate and then leave change to others.

Marching alone isn't enough. At best the political establishment will throw you a few minor things to placate enough of your people into silence, so that they can comfortably ignore the rest. Demonstrate, definitely, but there should be a move to also co-opt a political party through elections. OWS isn't some one town group where this would be a dream, it's national and could exercise real power for change.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 11 years ago

All demonstrations are a tantrum of sorts, people don't usually go out when they are content. That wasn't the point. You can voice your political opinion any where you want for any reason. The point was about change, if you want it you should make it happen, not just demonstrate and cry for someone else to do it.

From the posts on here it would seem that people believe the career politicians are corrupt. Why expect change from them? Go out, find good people that haven't been corrupted yet and get them elected?

Change is possible but the massive changes being looked for won't happen in response to talk. It requires action, for me that means voting in addition to marching. Every member of the house comes up for reelection, run people in primaries, a few victories and close races can start making a difference.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

corporations control our government and our economy. its rather stupid to think we can change things through those. voting has made no changes in 30 years.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 11 years ago

That's a point on which we disagree, we change government all the time, but have allowed ourselves to be led to choose between two, often equally corrupt, candidates. I don't care what anyone thinks of the tea parties goals, they did however show that they could nominate and elect people that adhered to those goals. So it would seem to be possible to effect change through the system. It's just harder to do then gathering together and protesting. Just protesting will get you a few career politicians that try to co-opt your goals for a few extra votes. I am definitely "stupid" if that term defines someone that isn't ready to abandon our current system.

It's difficult to discuss this movement though because it seems to be unfocused. It has a general objective, but the method of achieving it varies from person to person. Good if all you want is numbers, not helpful if you want real change. Great for promoting a social awareness, but like wearing one of those awareness ribbons, it doesn't really accomplish much.

More people bring in more potential solutions and he movement begins to get bogged down. You get these internal battles, where process seems to take precedence over substance. Occupy Seattle's disruption of a town hall meeting to support the movement is a good example of this.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

yeah, we totally disagree. we need to disrupt business as usual in town hall meetings, in press conferences, in public places. why? because the people are being ignored. we can't allow that. business as usual is ignoring the American people. we need to change that permanently. and its only going to happen on the street - and its got to be disruptive, loud, inconvenient and its got to grow.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 11 years ago

The disruption I mentioned as an example came to mind because it looks like the Occupy movement disrupted itself for no real point. As you say business as usual needs to be challenged, as do politicians. Ordinarily political actions at meetings are taken to drive home a point. I read this article and came away feeling the disruption was pointless. You may disregard the article as propaganda, not being from Seattle, I don't know the political leaning of this outlet, but here is the link if you're interested. http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/11/13/occupy-seattle-interrupts-pro-occupy-wall-street-forum-drives-away-supporters

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

you don't know what the political slant of the article is? how does it feel to know that you are lying when you say that? how strong is your commitment to make a commitment for our own freedom? how much are you driven by fear and a mindset of corporate slavery?

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 11 years ago

Political slant of the paper, not the article, the article is obviously critical of the local occupy people disrupting but seemed sympathetic to the OWS group on stage. It makes the overall movement look childish, but If this weekly, The Stranger, is conservative then I'd give it little to no credence. I'm just being up front with you about it, the article was linked through FARK, not a hard news site, but one that gets a lot of traffic. It makes this movement look childish.

I see OWS as having potential to make changes, I'd like to see them get people to enter politics and make a difference. If all they do is continue to educate the public and draw attention to corruption, at least it's something. As far as actual revolution? It might happen but right now I don't think there are enough people truly worked up over things.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

the corporations don't need to be loud and disruptive to get anything they want. the 99% have been ignored for decades and continue to be ignored. The American people asked for action in 2008 and again in 2010. We were ignored. The only way to get those that are in power to listen is to be disruptive and loud. I really can't see why this is not self-evident.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

I guess you supported the patriot act as well?

[-] 1 points by skizzy (445) 11 years ago

sneak and peek , see something say something ... Warentless wiretapping ... Who ever wrote the patriot act should be one of the first hung

[-] 1 points by LiveAndLetLive (79) from Fort Lauderdale, FL 11 years ago

and who are you to decide what OWS is and what it is not? Its about the 99% and their problems...... it can be social, political, financial etc. etc. You can involve yourself in what matters to you, but don't decide what I should be doing. No wonder more and more people are calling it an anarchy!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

jesus! another one. As I told the first needle dick, I'm not telling you to do anything. you do what ever the fuck you want. And, I can involve myself in whatever I want. And if you don't like it, tough shit. now, get lost.

[-] 1 points by LiveAndLetLive (79) from Fort Lauderdale, FL 11 years ago

clearly you are not mature enough to have a meaningful conversation without trash talking! did you find anything offensive in my post? and what is "get lost" all about?

BTW when did your mom tell you about my "needle dick"? I remember she was disappointed..... she's used to bigger ones! #trashtalk

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

yes she did, but, she heard it from your mom.

[-] 1 points by julianzs (147) 11 years ago

There is a yearning in every person to build a better future. OWS movement is like a beacon that reveals the path. The progress such as in Ohio will follow spontaneously.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

right on!

[-] 1 points by zoom6000 (430) from St Petersburg, FL 11 years ago

Amen

[-] 1 points by Mindlikespace (2) 11 years ago

My sense is that Tulcak and Gypsy King is the same cat.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

oh FFS! now everybody knows!! why? why? why? did you have to reveal that. I had a good thing going here. thanks a lot - for nothing

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

In the latest pictures shown of police officers in Portland in the media, it doesn't look like those police officers want to be there. Americans against Americans? and, the officers are part of the 99%. I think this is where the change might happen. it could be that the police officer unions will decide to join and strike. then, we are talking federal troops. we will have local law enforcement against federal troops. the federal troops made up of national guard and others that are vets of the Iraq war (I and II). what will happen then? I can't see the troops being unsympathetic especially when there are Iraq war vets within the ranks of local law enforcement and the national guard. its gonna get real interesting. there will be a day when the local law enforcement and the federal troops refuse to obey orders against their fellow Americans in the occupy protests.

[-] 1 points by disgustedinfl (1) 11 years ago

Wall Street has their hands all in our political system, from positions of power, to advising our leaders, to the opinions we trust and base our financial opinions on. As long as the financial district remains unregulated, lobbying is allowed and there are no consequences for those who have caused the economic collapse we are currently experiencing, ther will be no change.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

the benefit of having a General Assembly is that the cognitive short-comings of individuals (i.e. leaders) are overcome with a consensus. And, the strengths of individuals are added to the whole while the negative (mostly) of individual character or personality are reduced. Those that demand that the occupy movement must have leaders are espousing that the movement must possess the same flaws as the present system.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

thanks for the link. I've got to spend some more time on it. looks interesting.

[-] 1 points by ediblescape (235) 11 years ago

OWS is de-politics movement.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

the discussion is not the action. the occupy movement is active around the country and around the world. people are motivated on a very deep level. its not going to go away because you have some trolls spouting off here.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

you don't know me. how do you know what I'm good for? btw: I've been a janitor. are you implying something negative about that? its good honest work which is all I've ever asked for. but, at this point, any action is better than the decades long inaction and delay. but, it doesn't take long to figure out what needs to be done. I've already mentioned a dozen at least - not so many considering how many things are broke dick

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 11 years ago

Yeah, you've been a janitor, a marine, a stevador, a farmer, a coal miner, an iron worker, a bricklayer, an oil-field worker, a transpatriot, and one hell of a big time bullshitter, and nobody else has ever done anything. And considering that resume I wouldn't take one damn thing you said as anything but sheer bragging because you're afraid something's too small! Where the fuck do you come off talking to people with such utterly unwarrented contempt! I don't give a shit what you think! Just Fuck OFF!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

you have anger issues. it was evident from the beginning you didn't care what I thought. I've also fucked off and bartended as well. never a marine, what's a stevador (dock worker?), I worked on my uncle's farm, never was a coal miner nor iron worker, did some bricklaying, worked on an oil rig, a transpatriot? don't know what that means. big time bullshiter? yeah. I've been told my dick is average, but very nice (her words not mine). the only thing I have contempt for is people who demand that others listen to how fucking smart they are and demand that we all nod our heads in agreement.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 11 years ago

I have anger issues! Man you dis everybody you talk to with absolute hostility and unmittigated contempt!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

Are you a Doer or a Windbag?

[-] 1 points by AMH (123) 11 years ago

we should boycott the corporations -- all except the cooperatives. Cooperative corporations are owned by their customers, not the 1%, so profits come back to the people.

[-] 1 points by number2 (914) 11 years ago

Does OWS want to be maximally effective? Then be both. The government, corporations, establishment can keep what they got if the people don't vote the incumbents out of office. If they're not worried about losing their jobs nothing will change.

You can ignore a protest. You can't ignore an election. The establishment won't be concerned about OWS until OWS starts an agenda and starts taking out the politicians who are in the way of that agenda. I really hope you can see this because otherwise this is all a big waste of time.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

corporations OWN our government and OWN our economy. how can you even think that politics is going to change anything? how can you? for real?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

you can't ignore an election? AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.... oh, HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.... BU HA HA HA HA HA HA... oh, I just wet myself.... ah HA HA HA HA... my god, you CAN NOT be serious.

[-] 1 points by number2 (914) 11 years ago

explain yourself. how and who ignores elections in this country?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

wow, I mean really, there is no kind way to put this, but, that is a question so stupid, it hits the bottom dregs of stupidity. maybe I'm missing the joke and I'm the one being stupid. if its a joke, you got me. if not, wow....

[-] 1 points by number2 (914) 11 years ago

maybe they do in prague but not here in the US. They do stack the deck but it is not ignored

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

oh, game's up. you have me figured out. but, what does that have to do with the topic? can you explain the link? or is a personal attack just a diversion? you tell me. I'm American. Other than that, you know nothing about me. and what the fuck does it matter? do your statements hold together? or do they collapse under the weight of scrutiny?

[-] 1 points by number2 (914) 11 years ago

I'm not talking about you sir. Don't take it personally. Elections may be a joke sometimes but they are not ignored. Why do corporations spend millions on elections if they are just ignored? The fact is they are not. Maybe you have been abroad.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

corporations spend millions on elections so that the real results are ignored. they spend millions to rig them and fool people into voting against their best interest. that's what I mean that they are ignored. obama ignored the platform that got him elected. the republicans ignored the voice of the American people in 2010 - they've done nothing except stonewall when the American people clearly mandated them to DO SOMETHING. Elections are ignored. They are jokes. The game is rigged.

[-] 1 points by number2 (914) 11 years ago

if that's what you mean then, yes.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

I have dug ditches, cleaned grease pits, done roofing in the summer in south texas, I've tested chain saws. I've been homeless and hungry, I've looked in garbage for food. I've been unemployed more than I've been employed since i got my first job at Arby's in El Paso, TX in 1976. I've served our nation and got called up for the first gulf war. My son did two tours in Iraq this last time. My dad went to 'Nam for two tours. My dad told me when I graduated from college (I worked two sometimes three jobs to help pay for it while I went to classes full-time) that he felt sorry for me because when he graduated it wasn't about whether he was gonna work, it was just a question of where. and the sky was the limit. that's my story and its probably a common story. for people to blame me and people like me for the economic problems that we are facing now is absurd and shows no compassion. people are locked into a corporate butt slave ideology where they view any other way of doing things as "anarchy". people, grow some balls and grab them. LIVE FREE OR DIE. Americans are a capable, pragmatic people that when they decide to do something, nothing can stop them. but, the crap I hear from the trolls is all negative, no can do shit that has nothing to do with the true and real American spirit. You can't pull us down, you can't stop us, because we are truly the 99%. We are America and we are gonna change things.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 11 years ago

Social and Political are one in the same!

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

That is the way they have become, which is a distortion caused by basing political powere in social fears. No matter, article 5 of the constitution is the solution.--

http://articlevmeeting.info/article11-13-2011.pdf

[-] 1 points by Mindlikespace (2) 11 years ago

Im just a guy who drives one old truck and rents a room with his ten year old son. I work 7 days a week really hard and pull it together and my life with my son is great. OWS started out very cool but if it is to continue the blame has got to end. Anyone can work hard and do fine in this system, it's just that though...you gotta really work hard and then the resources will arrive. I never worry about the one percent, I just stay creative, work hard and I find it's quite easy to make it work. We live in a time when people feel so mistreated by the rich and the government. I simply don't waste my energy tripping on the one percent because there will always be an elite class. It's great not being in the one percent because in my mind true freedom is having the opportunity to work really hard and with no garuntees other than you just gotta go for it. Life is good!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

I have dug ditches, cleaned grease pits, done roofing in the summer in south texas, I've tested chain saws. I've been homeless and hungry, I've looked in garbage for food. I've been unemployed more than I've been employed since i got my first job at Arby's in El Paso, TX in 1976. I've served our nation and got called up for the first gulf war. My son did two tours in Iraq this last time. My dad went to 'Nam for two tours. My dad told me when I graduated from college (I worked two sometimes three jobs to help pay for it while I went to classes full-time) that he felt sorry for me because when he graduated it wasn't about whether he was gonna work, it was just a question of where. and the sky was the limit. that's my story and its probably a common story. for people to blame me and people like me for the economic problems that we are facing now is absurd and shows no compassion. people are locked into a corporate butt slave ideology where they view any other way of doing things as "anarchy". people, grow some balls and grab them. LIVE FREE OR DIE. Americans are a capable, pragmatic people that when they decide to do something, nothing can stop them. but, the crap I hear from the trolls is all negative, no can do shit that has nothing to do with the true and real American spirit. You can't pull us down, you can't stop us, because we are truly the 99%. We are America and we are gonna change things.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 11 years ago

political, social and economical are the trifecta of our democracy. For this reason I Iaugh at those who want unregulated capitalism. what next, unregulated social order. maybe that is the reason people are talking about anarchy. what is good for the economy is good for the society. no regulations equals no politicians and police officers.

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 11 years ago

Hear hear!

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 11 years ago

hard to separate social from political don't you think. i agree that electoral politics is a mess right now it does not have to be - politics in the streets is still politics - political economy is what is being challenged right now by ows

[-] 1 points by cappylr (10) 11 years ago

So what is the objective to publicly announce what we already know? Then what? If this is just about walking the streets with signs exactly how does this make a difference? I agree with the majority of the complaints thats why I support the movement but please tell me this is going to be more than mass complaining.

[-] 1 points by cappylr (10) 11 years ago

So what is the objective to publicly announce what we already know? Then what? If this is just about walking the streets with signs exactly how does this make a difference? I agree with the majority of the complaints thats why I support the movement but please tell me this is going to be more than mass complaining.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

no. its just mass complaining. if you can't understand it, then, just go away.

[-] 1 points by USCitizenVoter (720) 11 years ago

You had better check out other occupy web sites in other cities like www.occupynashville.com you can get some other information from their site than this one. It's not just about wallstreet. Screaming voices of the protesters are being heard. Read the signs.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

no, its not.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

my original statement: "corporations control our government and our economy. If you are hoping to change things within the present system, your hope is an insane one." Its not gonna happen. The American people know that and that's why the Occupy movement is here. I can't make it any simpler than that. You can try and change the subject, but the reality doesn't change.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 11 years ago

Why is it so hard to see that, if you mean change through voting, that that is just one more tool in our arsenal for change. Why must we rule that out?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

because corporations control our government - which includes our votes. they even own the electronic voting machines. how can you be so F'n dense?!! man, I really don't get it. WAKE UP!!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

corporations control our government, they control the election process. they control the legislative process. they control the executive and judicial system. they control the media. what are you not understanding here? so you really think that WE, the American people can use the existing system to change things? really?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 11 years ago

Than those are things we must change through action both outside and within the system. Every method of governance is subject to corruption and manipulation. You confuse the mechanism (voting) with the problem (Corruption and human moral failing). If we cannot rid the voting system of corruption than we cannot rid any other system of corruption. "The fault lies not in our stars (or in the voting booth) but in ourselves that we are bondsmen." We will either marshal enough political leverage, through every means possible, to root out corruption or we will not. Your insistance on ruling out voting will in the short run probably just end in electing a Republican and killing this movement. Perhaps that's your objective. How can you be so F'n dense?!! Wake up and read history. 1968 might be a good place to start! PS anarchy is not just a demonstrated failure - it hasn't even ever existed in modern society, except maybe in Somalia, a place I would not want to emmulate. Ditto the communist notion of "The dwindling away of the state". States don't just dwindle away - you either fight for a just state, or you succomb to dictatorship, the worst legacy of an otherwise admirable Slavic culture.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

wow. what an amazing display of mental gymnastics. you can't have it both ways. either you accept the present system and its failure, or you are ready to act for change. you can't change things within the present system because it is designed to resist change. it controls you. YOU are the dense one.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 11 years ago

Really, it's not possible to understand that voting is not the problem, but that the corruption of voting which arrises from a human impulse can corrupt any system, and that is the problem? What do you intend to achieve by "acting for change" then, when it's the human spirit that must change before we can reform Any system? What uncorruptable system would you put in place of the vote, when we ourselves are the corrupting factor? Anarchy? That's essentially what we have now. The corporations have come to the fore in a state of anarchy called laissez faire capitolism. We must transcend these artificial limitations and strike a new path based on human, not systemic transformation. That was what King, Ghandi, Einstein and so many others have tried to help us see. Compassion must be at the core; not us or them compartmentalized, thinking.

By the way, I do not think you are dense, but given that I'm not a troll, or intentional obstructionist, I don't appreciate being called "so F'n dense by you. That itself is a sign to me that you yet have some way to go down the path of inner realization. Yet, I must say I applaud your passion, and your willingness to grapple with these questions, and I also apologise for my really unwarrented retort. Clearly you are really quite smart, and are with us in the struggle here, wich is what really matters:)

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

dude, I use to try and talk intelligent with big words. but, you know what, I learned from real people that intelligence has everything to do with seeing what's really happening and then being able to act with that knowledge. I don't care if your smart or I'm smart or whether we have a smart person smart circle jerk. and I really don't give a fuk who "wins" the argument. I think that the occupy movement is about action. on the streets. real life shit. but, to have endless discussion on terms and schools of thought doesn't do shit except make some people look oh so intelligent. are you a windbag or a doer?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 11 years ago

Once again, either/or. You're from Prague? I never heard anyone from Prague say "dude." That's thirty year old California surfer slang. Furthemore, you shift around a lot in your presentation of yourself. I'm starting to get the picture here.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 11 years ago

I am replying to tulcak here because there is no reply likk below

Everything about your dialogue with me has been filled with barely veiled hostility and contempt. It is you who are shifting me to fit your ideology, that is what is called projection. Your essential energy seems hostile and defensive. You may have valid reasons for this attitude, but you also seem to be primarily simply evasive. I see no point in carrying this discussion further. Fortunately the movement is largely made up of more level heads.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

no your not. you are shifting your image of me to fit your ideology. you have no idea at all who I am. it would shock the hell out of you and then you'd have to pretend it doesn't shock you and then come up with some lame ass excuse to explain me away. you are taking the word "Prague" and the word "dude" and slapping a label on me. how pathetic you are.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

The occupy movement is not an anarchy. It has a structure other than the one you are used to. a structure that has failed. the occupy is using another system because we don't want the same vulnerabilities as the present system has. leaders can be controlled or act for personal gain. there are no leaders in the occupy movement to be bought out, manipulated or controlled. there are no leaders who would have self-interests above the general good. the occupy movement would not be able to exist and be self-sustaining and continue to grow if was an anarchy.

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 11 years ago

You are describing anarchy. Non-hierarchical voluntary community organisation. Anarchy is NOT chaos. This is a lie of the corporate media to confuse and confound people. They are so afraid of Non-hierarchical voluntary community organisation or anarchy that they have been working to destroy the meaning of the word itself.

[-] 1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Do you know what anarchy means?

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 11 years ago

it is real grassroots democracy - it means no rulers - not - no rules - can be a very organized society but no chief - and what do you know?

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

It means one thing: no chief/leader. It's the opposite of hierarchy. There are many different types of anarchies, just like there are many different types of hierarchies.

So when tulcak says Occupy is not an anarchy, but then later says there are no leaders, he is contradicting himself.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

you're an idiot. you can have order without leaders you dumb shit.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Who said you couldn't? I never said anarchies weren't organized. What are you talking about?

Don't you find it strange that the install script for this website uses the password "anarchy"?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

wow, your mental gymnastics are amazing.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

I don't follow you at all. You seem to have no clue what an anarchy is, and what this movement is all about.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

i know you don't follow me at all. its because you can't imagine anything else that the present system. you think anything other than the present system is anarchy. I know what the movement is about. its very clear. its about the people taking back control of our government and our economy. we do it not that its profitable or that it fulfills some selfish need personally, we do it because its right. if you think that the people having the power is anarchy, then, you have to think that the constitution is about anarchy.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

You have no idea what Occupy is. You should read about the movement you are following. It's sad.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

no. YOU have no idea what the movement is about. you should go out to an occupy protest, camp out and talk to us. then, you would know what it is about. you are defining the movement in your own little construct of the universe and those who don't agree with you, you just kick out of your universe. you have no compassion. for example, yesterday was Veteran's Day. one day out of the year. next week you will have forgotten all about them. you won't remember that they make up the largest portion of the homeless. that they are forgotten, by people like you. because in your little universe, you consider yourself patriotic because you pay lip service one day out of the year. actually, that's the opposite of patriotic.

[-] 2 points by rayl (1007) 11 years ago

why are you two arguing? please focus on what you have in common. there are more important issues at hand.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

this is what the occupy movement is about. its about people. not about profit and selfishness.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 11 years ago

correct - i assume he is thinking the bomb throwing, chaos mainstream def - do you read chomsky

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

You must be right. I guess we could say that in popular speak anarchy is often understood to mean chaotic terrorism. I read some Chomsky, but it's been awhile. I'm re-reading Fear And Trembling from Kierkegaard at the moment.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 11 years ago

kierkegaard! sounds rough - i am a fan of anarchy but the term creates so much confusion that it is not worth it - radical democrat is my new favorite - chomsky has something new on znet (i think) explaining his views on anarchism - he is the best from my point of view

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Kierkegaard is actually surprisingly easy to read. He's not a pure philosopher. He oscillates between philosophy and literary writing. He's one of my favorite authors.

Thanks for the tip on Chomsky. I'll check it out.

[-] 1 points by buphiloman (840) 11 years ago

it is NOT anarchy...it's plurarchy...rule by plurality, everyone is a leader.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

I don't find the word plurarchy in my dictionary, and neither on the Internet. Can you provide a source, perhaps an essay that talks about this word? Perhaps you are confused with a plutocracy or a plutarchy?

Anyhow, anarchy is the opposite of an hierarchy. So, it's either or. You do realize that it makes no sense to say that everyone is a leader right? To lead you need followers, making it an hierarchy.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

hmm... lets see, we are creating something new and thrasmosque wants a historical reference. its new, see? like it hasn't been invented yet. all the systems before have failed. so.... we try something new, something other than anarchy. by the way, talking about kierkegaard and chomsky doesn't make you smart. I read and understood them long before you were born. it didn't make me smart either. you aren't here to change things, you are here to show people how smart you are. and how stupid the rest of us are for wanting to do what's right and change a corrupt system. you, on the other hand, are the worst sort. you're in this for your own selfish needs and desires. especially the desire to seem superior to the rest.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

its also a symbol for: arab spring movement, anti-facist movement, anti-war movement, War Resisters' International, Feminism, Industrial Workers of the world (1917). It is used by revolutionary social movements against oppression. It is appropriate because the occupy movement is a revolutionary social movement against oppression by corporations and the rich and powerful. It is not being used as a symbol for anarchy. you truly are an idiot.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

now, WHO needs educating? It seems you do. YOU need to take the time to educated yourself on what this movement is. Its not a few disgruntled protesters with nothing better to do. The system is broken and the people want to control a new system that works for them. Not for a few and not controlled by corporations.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Please read up on Occupy. You are missing so much. It's sad really.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

ha ha ha ha. you're an arrogant pompous windbag. you're the one who needs educating. you come to the OWS web site, not to learn or tho help, but, to try to tell people that if they only understood the present system better, they'd be ok with everything. the present system is controlled by corporations. we've seen the bankruptcy, both economically and morally. how you can defend this system is a mystery. what kind of mental gymnastics do you have to go through in order to not immediately see that you are terribly wrong.

[-] 1 points by PandaMe73 (303) from Oakland, CA 11 years ago

Actually, I've read every post of his I can find, and he is very smart. I disagree with him on many points, but I don't think he supports the present system just because he questions or debates supporters of OWS. I have not seen him act like a troll, or raise points counter to supporters posts simply to argue for the hell of it, quite the contrary actually, I have seen him stand up to anti-OWS forum members acting unreasonably or presenting weak arguments as well. He seems to have no greater agenda than to add to the marketplace of ideas going on here between all the noise, as many of us here do on all sides of the issues, and he argues well and supports his statements, which I respect whether I agree with his position or no. I understand your passion and the fact that the term "anarchy" has been so abused as to cause a kneejerk reaction in people from all over the spectrum, which leads me to think maybe feeling insulted has you so angry and not simply a stubborn refusal to be civil with people who disagree.

I'm not some right wing shill, I'm as crunchy and "left" as it gets in the US and I must say, he is looking far more reasonable than you are in this argument, which has less to do with his position than with your appalling presentation. You don't have to roll over and agree with everything to acknowledge where someone opposing you has valid points, and while I have tossed off my share of insults here, it's only in response to like insults and if they stop I do, and I keep it to a minimum in all cases when the topic is one where I want observers to actually consider my view, since excessive rudeness tends to erode credibility regardless of how correct the argument made is.

But you are beyond the pale in this thread, and are freaking out on as many supporters as on any truly opposing OWS, simply for having a different view than you of some aspect of the protests. Unlike you, I see @Thrasymaque staying remarkably unruffled and civil relative to your hostility. He has poked you with a few comments about not being able to read, since you opened yourself up to it by disregarding established facts (by which I don't mean not giving up your position in response to, but by ignoring/denying them rather than do the work of using logic to account for how those facts don't weaken your position). But you have in most cases been first to fire and fastest to escalate, including your reaction here, were you have called him everything under the sun, including a pole smoking homo, which I find completely uncool no matter what as a supporter of GBLT rights, but even more so coming from someone crowing about their egalitarian cred and the importance of being inclusive.

As an OWS supporter, I feel you come off as awfully dogmatic for someone from a leaderless movement, making me wonder "who made you the highest ranking OWS member that you can treat people with any differing ideas with such disregard?" Did I miss out on some sort of ideological purity test required in order to really be included, or are you just speaking for everybody when that's not your place?

I'm not saying you're a bad guy, we all have our moments when we don't represent ourselves well, and even though I disagree with some of your points, I'm not trying to say you aren't smart, I also disagree with some of the same points you have disagreed with. While I share your passion for demanding an end to the injustices the fester at so many levels in our society, I think you could have expressed most of your points, and even refused to budge in your position, in any number of ways that a reader might agree or disagree with without thinking "geezus who pooped in that guys Cherios?" Instead, you chose an more in your face approach without any real provocation, enough to distract me from troll smacking to feel I had to stop to check a fellow OWS supporter-- You are not coming off well with the track you are on, and for your blood pressure AND the well being of the movement's PR, I'm just saying please chill out, don't take disagreement so personally, and if you refuse to consider other viewpoints at least do so civilly, and without using comments disparaging to gay people or that assume that if someone doesn't think as you do, they are then anti-OWS or some corporate boot lick.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

:) I didn't get frustrated. I fought ideas with ideas. That is what we should be doing. But, when the day is over, we gotta take action! Ideas and thoughts do nothing. Action is what changes things. but, accepting things without tearing them down keeps us on the same path of failure. if I am frustrated, I'm frustrated at the lethargy and inaction of the American people over the past 30 years. It took desperation to get people into the streets and plain chance. What frustrates me is that people still want to work inside the same system! We've been doing that for 30 years and guess what? Its not working! Talking about banging your head over and over on the same ole wall. corporations control our government and our economy - the American people won't change things there.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

really, I'm not interested in winning anyone over. But, I definitely want to fire people up. Get them to think. The two non-trolls in this thread have gotten me to think. And, I wouldn't have done that unless they hadn't been passionate and unrelenting. The time for being nice, being patient is over. Long past. Rome is burning.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

but, I won't stop being blunt with my opinion when people are being so obviously dull (not referring to you or Thrasymaque)

[-] 1 points by PandaMe73 (303) from Oakland, CA 11 years ago

Blunt is fine :) Just take a breath first so you avoid shrill.... trust me, this is not coming from someone who doesn't sympathize with what it is like to be mouthy and have a hot temper... I just learned it makes you lose arguments in the eyes of observers even if your fundamental position is valid, and makes you look even worse if your premise has a few flaws you didn't account for.

I'm not a nicey-poo person by natural inclination by a long shot, for a long time I was confrontational and harsh and people without thick skins could GTFO. I didn't soften my position to be altruistic though, I learned diplomacy because it helps ME, the fact that it helps the other guy from having an BP and adrenaline spike too was simply gravy, LOL And I sensed you were someone that could listen and take advice or I wouldn't have wasted my time with it. I'm glad you proved me right.

So please, stay passionate and be blunt, just a little more calm :) You know the whole you catch more flies with honey cliche, it's actually got some truth to it!!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

well, actually, I have taken a second look at Thrasymaque's links, especially one nine page article. its intriguing and I'm reconsidering. its a very good article, but, I need time to really read it. It could be that I will become educated and change my mind. cheers.

[-] 1 points by PandaMe73 (303) from Oakland, CA 11 years ago

Or you could become educated and not change your mind, but instead discover important ways to strengthen the foundation of your position, which is just as honorable. :)

The only lose/lose reaction to the disagreements encountered among civil debaters it to get too frustrated be able to convince anyone because you start lashing out, and at the same time refuse to learn from the points raised against you to enable you to either adjust or strengthen your position for the next time.

Don't get me wrong, I take no stand on the points argued here, but I am glad you are reading the links he provided-- good information can only do your position good, whether you change it to reflect new information, or make it even more unshakable by gaining added knowledge to enable you to better defend it.

Thanks for not lashing out at my post, I am sorry if I was too scolding, but it frustrated me to see someone who cares so much as you get so frustrated with no need. I know there are so many trolls it's hard to see that not all the folks arguing are enemies, but try not to lose sight of the ways honorable opponents make you better for the competition, if you learn and grow from it.

Cheers and keep smiling, we will all need our sense of humor to keep on trucking, and this thing is not a short term thing, or if it is we are fucked..so I hope folks are in it for the long haul!!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

the present system is broken, its "fixed", it has destroyed our country our politics and a whole generation faces no future and has no hope. we are despondent as a nation. but, you, seem to think everythings just fine. tell me why you think everything is fine. don't tell me who you blame, but, things about our lives (the 99%) that show you that things are just fine.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

I think the current system sucks. I never said it was good. It's like you haven't read one word of my posts.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

no, its you chose to remember only the words in your own posts that you want to at the moment when its convenient. you are not the type that will ever admit they are wrong. you should try it sometime - but, do it sincerely. its very liberating.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Almost everybody here knows Occupy is an anarchy. The main logo on the site, the black fist on top, is an anarchy logo.

[-] 1 points by buphiloman (840) 11 years ago

It makes all the sense in the world to say everyone is a leader. People take turns performing "leadership" roles, and unlike the present system, EVERYONE can take a turn, and everyone's voice carries equal weight.

btw, you won't find plurarchy in a dictionary, it's a neologism. And I just defined it for you.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

cool! I'm with you! we need something new. thrashmosque is the epitome of the status quo. god, what a pompous airbag. but, the important thing is is that he appear superior and intelligent. its not about changing a corrupt system or anything as unimportant as that...

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

You don't need that neologism, what you are defining already has a name. It's called an anarchy. A system without hierarchy in which people use tools like direct democracy to make decisions. In an anarchy, everybody can participate in the decisional process, and their voices carry the same amount of weight. Neologisms are fine when you need a new word to define something new, but they become pleonasms when what you want to define already has a term.

That being said, it would be nice for you to tell us what you think anarchy means?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

that being said, no, because you're here to show us how incredibly smart you are. do you care about what the occupy movement is trying to accomplish? do you care what it has accomplished already? or, is this all about you? should we discuss the philosophical implications of a hair on my ass? are you really interested at all in the movement? what are you really here for?

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

The Occupy movement has accomplished great things already. I think it's wonderful. It has spread throughout the world. Extremely powerful. We need people to fight against corrupted government, and these protesters are doing it. I give them my thumbs up.

But, it is anarchy. And that's ok. I never said anarchy was necessarily bad. That's your opinion, not mine.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

you ask me what I've done, but, then you tell me that I don't understand the occupy movement. I'll tell you after you tell me what you have done. I've done a lot, so, it might seem I'm bragging - you'd probably think I've made it up anyways. I've asked you another question. what can you tell us about our lives that would show us that we don't understand the movement or we don't understand the present corrupt system we live under? not who you blame, or what we can do about it to change it, but the things in our lives that should show us that we are wrong about our present condition and that things are really not that bad.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

My only point is that Occupy is an anarchy. Nothing else. I don't think anarchies are bad at all. You need to educated yourself because you just end up sounding ignorant. I think most everybody on these boards, including the protesters and organizers, know it is an anarchy. Damn, one of the main symbols of anarchy is on this page as a logo. The black fist on top.

[-] 1 points by buphiloman (840) 11 years ago

I think most people in the public (the hoi polloi) conflate anarchy with antinomianism (or lawlessness). Thus, a neologism to prevent their confusion.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

I think most people think you are a pompous airbag who couldn't care less about changing anything.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Your neologism simply adds to the confusion. If people don't know what anarchy is, the best would be to explain it to them. The problem is lack of education, and you're trying to solve it by adding a new word which means more education is needed if we want to understand it. It's also very close to plutarchy and plutocracy so that will certainly confuse.

Another problem is that your neologism simply means a rule by many. It does not mean a rule by all. A hierarchy could certainly be ruled by many, and in a system ruled by many there could also be many subjects.

However, if you are really serious about it, you should write an academic essay and propose it to peer reviewed journals. That's the best way to get neologisms accepted in the field.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

education? really? I think the problem is a lack of individual thought and autonomy. A lack of the American spirit of "Live Free or Die". A lack of BALLS. You would talk until the end of all things, but would never actually have the spine to take action. You could complain, criticize, argue, and dissemble while the house burns down. But, its just not in your character to actually DO anything. What have you ever done? Can you tell me that? Just tell us all one thing, one real life ACTION that you've ever taken besides flapping your jaw?

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

What have you done? You're part of a movement you don't even understand for Pete's sake.

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[-] 0 points by turak (-812) 11 years ago

Correct> but how are you going to separate social issues from political ones?

Only when 99% of actual voters refuse to vote period will the charade of democracy be exposed and the ones in power be seen for what they are. Only if 99% of the people declare class warfare on the top1% will there be any social or political change, and right now, the people who claim to represent 99% of us are actually less than .01% of us... which is why this movement so far is harmless.

There are too many hundreds of millions of people who have not lost their homes and have not been fired and are not homeless and are not starving and poor for any social change to happen.

As long as the brainwashed majority can be effectively pacified by lowering the price of a pizza, a hamburger, a sub sandwich by a few bucks, as long as millions and 100's of millions of people are allowed to gamble online, as long as 100's of millions can watch sports, as long as billions can watch free mass media TV and spend their lives surfing the Internet, as long as the top cash industry in the world is porn, as long as 1 billion Indians worship their Ballywood idols and watch movies, as long as children can play with their X-box video games, as long as people and children can use cell phones, as long as Hollywood stars are worshiped and billions of imbeciles worship a god and believe in religion, as long as China is a police corporate fascist capitalist state that controls and oppresses 1.3 billion Chinese effectively by letting them slave away their lives for a few pennies or dollars, as long as the human species believes that greed and selfishness is good: the American OW movement will be a blip on the continuing downslide of civilization.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

tulcak wrote: no, yawn, you bore me.END-----

That is what the nwo love about you and how you refuse to acknowledge useful information for understanding HOW secrecy is created and maintained.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

http://wikileaks.org/ secrets are how the rich and powerful keep wealth and power. there should be no secrets. check out the wikileaks sites. Now THAT'S useful information. you should try providing some.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

If wikileaks was a distraction, and there were no way to use the information, would you know it?-----

I propose the states demand that congress convene an article 5 convention where the states have authority to USE the information you suggest might have use. OMG!-------

I propose that free speech has been abridged and it takes wealth to give it meaning, therefore there needs to be amendment that assures information useful to survival is shared and understood.-----

It is useful to know the full and accurate history of how American government got so far from the constitution. At lease comprehensive planning can be done.

http://algoxy.com/poly/emergency_powers_statutes.html

Lessig power point on article V http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gpbfY-atMk

Lots of facts here about Article V. http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html

Article V conference, harvard 9/25/11-video comments http://vimeo.com/31464745

All Americans can use their citizenship and agreement to demand their states enforce the constitution the states created and move for an article 5 convention NOW!

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[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

tulcak wrote: you are dellusional. I have no dellusions, I have no allegiances except with facts. facts are not blogs or articles on the internet. facts come from science. competent and educated people make observations of the world or of experiments. they test things, they sample things and then they publish their findings. other facts come from verifiable sources. obama is a U.S. citizen. the documents are there, the verifiable facts are also there (as in eye witnesses). If you are tired of denial, stop denying what is obviously the truth. or offer real evidence. not books and articles. and, here is a tip, use "facts" that actually directly support your statements/conclusions.END-----

I would like everyone to notice that tulcak has posted no facts of any kind and refuses to use information of scientific medical research and the product of courts of law which prove those courts are not constitutional.

Time for critical thinking and a review of what kinds of behaviors this government activity in our efforts pretending to be social activists would look like. Draw your own conclusions. BTW, I can prove that there are more than one way for the following link to be executed by people.

http://politics.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

I haven't posted any facts? You mean like, I didn't post these facts: 88% or real revenue went to corporate profit last year. only 1% went to salaries and wages. that's just one or two facts I have posted.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

You mean like the sun came up? Wow, impressive. Your criticism is unsupported where what I claim as fact IS supported and you are failing to notice that COURTS are making unconstitutional decisions.-----

Maybe you approve of America as a lawless, global gangster.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

maybe you approve of the patriot act.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

While I have the only site on the planet that has a detailed and feasible engineering explanation of how 2 towers went to the ground in 10 seconds, that is a very telling distortion of what I do considering I'm working for an Article 5 convention in order to end such fascist things.

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

Facts there which are supported by a Ph.D in physics, materials testing, Dr. Ron Larsen, coronell.

http://libertycalling.com/cbrowndemomodel.htm

Your distortion and selectivity expose you.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

something is wrong with your sentence structure. can't quite put my finger on it. oh, and Article 5, amending the constitution. what amendment do you suggest? you seem to be a conspiracy nut. I'm not saying there are no conspiracies, but, its not the government, its corporations. let's not try to get sidetracked here. the problem is corporate greed, therefore, the occupy movement. also, corporations control our government. ratifying an amendment would be a huge distraction and waste of time.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

Hmmm, you seem to act against Americans simply seeking to defend their constitution by seeing congress follow the constitution rather than simply realizing that congress has been in violation of the constitution for 100 years. Get it? We need to have a convention to propose amendments here in America.-

This man in the video on this page sued all members of congress for violation of the consitution. He learned they have the arrogance to not even count the applications properly or at all.

http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html

Corporate greed cannot be addressed outside of a convention to amend. Congress would have done it long ago if that were an intent. States ratifying amendment is the only way to stop corporations.----

Your position is not cognitively consistent. Your selectivity in not addressing this fact of congresses unconstitutionality, indicates an agenda attempting ad hominium with your cognitive distortions, upon those defending the constitution.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

blah blah blah. what amendment do you propose congress to ratify? YOU are the one who is vague. Be specific. Also, do you deny that corporations control our government?

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

Not the issue, the issue is the convention is mandated by the law of the constitution and you are trying to downplay that congress has been in violation of the constitution for 100 years. This places you against the constitution and for congress.

The military industrial complex controls the government, and it is a lot more than just corporations.

Your intents are clear by what you ignore, congresses unconstitutional failure to call an article 5 convention.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

What.... Amendment.... Are... You... Proposing... To.... Have... Congress.... Ratify?..... should I repeat the question Again?

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

No amendment to propose. Just seeking to defend and uphold the constitution. Sorry you have a problem with that.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

then, you have no plan to defend and uphold the constitution. just empty words. your comments are completely void of content.

[-] 0 points by figero (661) 11 years ago

oh - pardon me - a socialist movement - nothing to do with politics lol!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

oh pardon me. what do you mean? are you having trouble imagining a better way? no LOL here.

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[-] 0 points by vets74 (344) from New York, NY 11 years ago

We learned better during the Civil Rights Movement. Dr. King and others gave their lives and they changed the South. You would have had to go to grammar school there in the 1950s to understand the whole of what they accomplished.

The essentials:

-- Register and vote every time.

-- Never accept corruption.

-- Always support social justice.

Yes indeed, we have lost rounds for 30 years to 1%er class warfare. The basics do not change.

Voting is democracy.

Love democracy if you can.

Or hate democracy and screech that it is "government." Quote Ronnie Reagan and imagine that his message did not fit perfectly with Copperhead pro-slavery bigotry. Imagine that Reagan was not a supporter of Prescott Bush's native fascism.

"Democracy is not the solution to our problems.

Democracy is the problem!"

That is Reagan's message. Not hidden much.

Love democracy, or hate it.

Vote, or don't.

What would Dr. King would want you to do ?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

how has politics changed anything since? who controls the system now? the people? or the corporations? I love freedom. I love a free people who are free from leaders and personalities that taint the will of the people. the basics have changed. that is what caused this movement to form and gain strength. this movement is not about doing ANYTHING within the existing system, because we've learned historically over the past 30 years that nothing does. the actions and the change must happen outside of the corrupt system. this is a time for revolution, not a time for resurrecting the dead.

[-] 0 points by vets74 (344) from New York, NY 11 years ago

At least the drunken/ignorant Klan do not rule the night.

Now, almost no one knows that Wall Street and the mortgage brokers stole $7-trillion. That is an establish fact -- buried from media view.

Consider this.... Back during Vietnam and ever since, Americans do not know that the official US Army history of the war states that 2,600,000 Vietnamese were killed. Men counted for some of it, but mostly this was women and children and the elderly.

-- Information revolution - that's possible.

-- Non-violent revolution is what wins.

Smashing everything is what the provocateur gangs -- mostly out-of-staters with smarmy backgrounds -- inflicted on Oakland. They arrived at the protests at 11 P.M. and ended up burning all or parts of 40 buildings.

Those gangs were not OWS people.

It'll take us two or three months to sort out Oakland. Similar problem to the Air & Space Museum provocateur-incited riot on October 8th.

Helps that the people running these provocateurs are effin' stupid people. They're getting one-day leads in media by taking outrageous/felonious long term risks. Make 'em pay for it.

[-] 0 points by figero (661) 11 years ago

It's a childish temper tantrum - nothing more

[-] 0 points by DudleyE (94) 11 years ago

OWS is a SOCIAList movement. Not a political one! Yeah we can agree with you on that!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

yes we can. I'd rather have a SOCIAL movement than a political one controlled by corporations and the republicans - tea party.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 11 years ago

Yes, but you're only saying this because you've never known hunger.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

Hmmm, are you advocating abandoning legal authority to meet demands? Is it only defense actions you advocate? Do you know what cognitive distortions are?--

COGNITIVE DISTORTIONS

  1. All or nothing thinking: Things are placed in black or white categories. If things are less than perfect self is viewed as failure.
  2. Over generalization: Single event is viewed as continuous failure.
  3. Mental filter: Details in life (positive or negative) are amplified in importance while opposite is rejected.
  4. Minimizing: Perceiving one or opposite experiences (positive or negative) as absolute and maintaining singularity of belief to one or the other.
  5. Mind reading: One absolutely concludes that others are reacting positively or negatively without investigating reality.
  6. Fortune Telling: Based on previous 5 distortions, anticipation of negative or positive outcome of situations is established
  7. Catastrophizing: Exaggerated importance of self's failures and others successes.
  8. Emotional reasoning: One feels as though emotional state IS reality of situation. ie.
  9. "Should" statements: Self imposed rules about behavior creating guilt at self inability to adhere and anger at others in their inability to conform to self's rules.
  10. Labeling: Instead of understanding errors over generalization is applied.
  11. Personalization: Thinking that the actions or statements of others are a reaction to you.
  12. Entitlement: Believing that you deserve things you have not earned.-

These are things that cognitve therapists invented to diagnose disorders that cause behavioral issues. The same things used in communications create cognitive inconsistencies.---

Unfortunately, media has been teaching cognitive distortions through sitcoms, soap operas, game shows, reality shows, cartoons, for decades. Americans unconsciously rely on them for communications, and apparently they are used elesewhere in the world as well. Be aware!

BTW, I agree, just want to improve the delivery and effect, or get Occupy to understand they need to use article 5 as the pivot point for the authority to end the problems you count on:) ---

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

the benefit of having a General Assembly is that the cognitive short-comings of individuals (i.e. leaders) are overcome with a consensus. And, the strengths of individuals are added to the whole while the negative (mostly) of individual character or personality are reduced. Those that demand that the occupy movement must have leaders are espousing that the movement must possess the same flaws as the present system.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

I demand accountability and the OWS movement has none so far, particuarly relating to strategy and being sure they are not wasting protestors time and efforts. Leaders can do that and if such is done with consensus by the movement under them, with respect for all evidence and reason, then the chance of flaws is acceptably taken as removed. You need to study the removal of knowledge that America has undergone.-

www.realityzone.com/hiddenagenda2.html

And realize that "you do not know what you do not know." The dumbing down of America was for a very specific reason, to disable them from understanding HOW treason was going to be conducted.--

You know it is happening, but cannot define legally exactly how, therefore your assertions are dissmissed by the treasonous officials presiding over government and courts. Wise up. We do not know everything about the mind.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

oh, thank you so much for straightening us out. well, that's that. I guess we can all go home now, because god has spoken. man, you're also a pompous windbag.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

See #10. labeling, it really limits ability to use information. Which of course the nwo just loves.-----

Are you sure you want to be doing what you are doing?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

you know, if you keep this up, you may "cure" me. because, obviously, I need help.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

I've noticed that some modern political paradigms suffer from assimilation of patterned cognitive distortion as a part of social discourse which creates fairly heavily conditioned individuals. Of course in social circles this gets passed around gaining reinforcement, such is natural. Easily correctable with sincerity of purpose to reason.--

Such correction can even be contagious if the groups have the same levels of sincerity.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

all yo have to say is that the people are united in a common cause and they are motivated on the deepest level to take action to make change. this is what the occupy movement is. people realize that voting changes nothing. that the very political system they participate in is controlled by big business. The history of this is clear. whole generations have been decimated by the politics and the ideology of corporate greed. the 99% see very clearly. they have the life experience of it. they've lived the history. it makes it very clear about the cause and the action that needs to happen. your psycho-babble is appropriate for a status quo corporate butt slave - effusive and pointless and always placing the blame on the people that have suffered and are taking action. never on the immoral (unethical, if you like) corporations that caused the problems. if you support the present system, you are going to have to either admit that you share their morality and you don't care or you will have to say it doesn't exist which the 99% know exists - it has destroyed their lives.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

I do not support the present government, it is unconstitutional. Realize that the word "system" is separate from the word "constitution".

I can prove that the dumbing down relating to secrecy and how it is propagated has deprived those with passion for justice and constitutional government of the knowledge needed to understand how those in corporations collude with government secretly.-----

Below are some links that present treasonous behaviors by judges. Notice that women judges are the ones making these treasonous decisions.---

http://thejaghunter.wordpress.com/

http://www.safeguardourconstitution.com/news/bannedarticle.html

Okay, now, gather your wits and prepare for the red pill.----- http://algoxy.com/psych/2hypno1.html See what it says about "women and girls". Then answer a question, "Why are there so many "fraternal orders". Check the bottom right of that page and note what it says about "children under five".--

Okay, now realize that is the ONLY such statement I have found in 15 years of looking for info on the effects of hypnosis on children. Gee, if a secret society wanted to keep secrets, they could just make them unconscious and prevent medicine from publishing the truth. We know publishers are all corporations.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

ah ha, you're a birther. news flash: Obama has shown his official and real birth certificate. just because people close their eyes when its held up in front of their faces doesn't mean it goes away. This is just an excuse for the racists to kick a black man out of office. That's the bottom line. I think you've been hypnotised.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

Then why are courts violating the rights of Soldiers trying to establish that they are under lawful military authority?

http://www.safeguardourconstitution.com/news/bannedarticle.html

During a September 2, 2010 pretrial hearing held at Fort Meade, MD, Lakin’s previous defense team was denied a motion to compel the State of Hawaii to produce all of President Obama’s natal records. Additionally, the motion had asked for the court appearance and testimony of several State of Hawaii officials including the appropriate “custodian of records”.

You're labeling, using a cognitive distortion again. Which shows why you are using unverified information instead of the facts of this link ALREADY POSTED.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

your proof is an article from a birther site? this isn't even worth responding to. my replies to you are done. you're a total moron. and what does this have to do with the occupy movement or my post (see top of page)?

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

Hmmm, two more cognitve distortions of labeling in futile denial, blatently in error. safeguardourconstitution.com is not a "birther site". If you were against the constitution, you may try to term it that way however.

Ad hominium shows how weak your rational argument is, basically non existent.

The Occupy movement has no idea what it is about except making some quality demands. I happen to know for a fact that the demands will not be met unless the authority to do so is gained and that Article 5 of the US constitution is how it must be done.--

If that was not true, we would not be where we are because congress and presidents have been in control the entire time. Did you comment on cognitive infiltration yet? That should be interesting.

http://politics.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

no, yawn, you bore me.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

wow. I mean wow. I really don't know what to say to that. uh, wow.

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

Uh, red pill . . . remember?------

Weave all that into this.------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weSzkIB8184

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you. Do you always talk down to people. Actually, I think you sound like a nut case. But, I'll go check your links out in case I'm wrong. you are seriously strange (not a compliment)

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 11 years ago

I'm very tired of denial, it has cost at least million lives in the last ten years. I hope you are not advocating that denial continue.

People tend to forget truth can be difficult, this IS the red pill. I remind you of that, and inform you that what I share has massive fact behind it. These things are items that secret societies and the nwo do not want people to know or understand because it is how they maintain secrecy. They enforce their secrecy by social fears that include people thinking the info is strange and undesireable.---

Social fears can control us. Sexual abuse of children is a fearful social thing and that is used in the unconscious to create fears that cannot be reasoned, enforcing secrecy.

They love folks that slip into expressing and using social fears to repress knowledge in social setting rather than examining the facts and using them.

To show fact now, at the basis of my assertions, I present these scans of a 1964 book called "Emotions and Memory" by David Rappaport.

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/emomem175.jpeg http://algoxy.com/psych/images/emomem176.jpeg

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

The book sounds interesting. I will have to read it.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

you are dellusional. I have no dellusions, I have no allegiances except with facts. facts are not blogs or articles on the internet. facts come from science. competent and educated people make observations of the world or of experiments. they test things, they sample things and then they publish their findings. other facts come from verifiable sources. obama is a U.S. citizen. the documents are there, the verifiable facts are also there (as in eye witnesses). If you are tired of denial, stop denying what is obviously the truth. or offer real evidence. not books and articles. and, here is a tip, use "facts" that actually directly support your statements/conclusions.

[-] 0 points by ihateoccupiers (0) 11 years ago

OWS is not a social or political movement, it is a bunch of unemployed deadbeat losers who have nohing better to do. Please, please prove me wrong and let this group actually be a cult about to commit a mass suicide.

[-] 0 points by ihateoccupiers (0) 11 years ago

OWS is not a social or political movement, it is a bunch of unemployed deadbeat losers who have nohing better to do. Please, please prove me wrong and let this group actually be a cult about to commit a mass suicide.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

dear ihateoccupiers, santa is not bringing you any gifts this year. just coal in a holey sock (not holy). rudolph (the reindeer) is very disappointed in you. rudolph (Hess) says to keep up the good work. love, satan

[-] 0 points by owschico (295) 11 years ago

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by jay1975 (428) 11 years ago

Without leaders or true representation, you have mob rule. The majority are free to oppress the minority as their voice does not hold enough weight. Humans have always come together around strong leaders (for good and bad). Even simply cultures like those of the Native Americans in the 19th century had tribal leaders for a reason. A group without focus has no chance of achieving any significant goals as every voice drowns out the others.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

so, tell me what structure the occupy movement has. do you know?

[-] 0 points by cappylr (10) 11 years ago

So thats the master plan? marching through the streets with signs until our message gets across? we dont stand a chance if thats all we have in mind. I pray we have a plan B for the moment that comes when we realize they dont care how much we complain they have all the leverage to starve us out.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 11 years ago

Thank you, thank you, thank you. We must not tie our hands with these rediculous self-limitations. We must do everything we can to work for an end to this horrible, exploitative system. These guys act as though we were already in charge, and it smacks of a theoretical college discussion group, trying to impress one another with their "superior knowledge." I say Grow UP. This isn't a game here, it's deadly serious! What the heck do they mean by "Social Movement?" I don't see them defining that. It's so vague as to be meaningless!

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

that's because you haven't been out on the streets brother. out where the action is. where the occupying part of this occupy movement is. that's where its being defined. not on a blog where windbags talk about the ultimate definition of "anarchy" or about Chomsky. this here is bullshit. the real world is out where the protests are happening. out on the streets where an Iraq war vet got his skull smashed in with a tear gas canister. if you're getting all your ideas about the movement here, you'll never know what it is about and you'll always be a corporate butt slave (as we all have been).

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

what facts? you didn't give any. you are a pompous windbag that has nothing to offer but wind and bad breath. you are a bore. go away.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 11 years ago

As I said, you're not worth bothering with, nothing but ego, and tried and true avenues toward failure; contempt for everyone but yourself. It's people exactly like you that destroy idealistic movements, and are the reason a lot of people fear and despize the left. Black Bloc ? Maoist? perhaps, or maybe just division troll. It's you that are the stupifying bore.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

you think you know me? what a laugh. my god, your arrogance is mind-boggling. instead of telling me who I am or trying to impress people with your superior intellect, why don't you do something constructive, make suggestions for action (I have), go to a protest (I'm trying to help organize one here).

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 11 years ago

Eeyore is that you? "It will never work."

[-] 0 points by cappylr (10) 11 years ago

So thats the master plan? marching through the streets with signs until our message gets across? we dont stand a chance if thats all we have in mind. I pray we have a plan B for the moment that comes when we realize they dont care how much we complain they have all the leverage to starve us out.

[-] 0 points by Billtheciaagent (2) 11 years ago

Please do not write any truth about OWS.

[-] -1 points by journey4word (214) 11 years ago

I agree 100%

Q: What would you get if you crossed a Jackass with Barack Obama?

A: Barack Obama.

Of course the Obaminites will focus their attention away from their messiahs failures and towards corporations, business, industry, economic institutions, ANYTHING but obama

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

bush was and is an asshole, so, is obama. they are both flunkies for the corporations. this is the problem. you want to sweep all this under the rug and focus on anything but the real problem. you want to take politics (which is controlled by corporations) and say that this is who we should blame. how is that going to change a thing?

[-] 0 points by journey4word (214) 11 years ago

your right, voting out an idiot wont change a thing :). how about I take my ass and sit in a park for a month. that should fix it

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

do you really think that that is all that is happening? people just sitting on their asses? I really don't think you really believe that. It just sounded spiffy at the time.

[-] 0 points by journey4word (214) 11 years ago

I know it's not. I work, yes work, 2nd shift. after work I've been so bored I've walked Liberty Plaza Park at 2am .

granted I don't see most of the activity but I did see a few young men engaging in anal which made me want to puke.

Thus I can no longer support this, umnn. call it what you want but the REAL 99% of this country reject you involving them.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

ha, you're a fool.

[-] 0 points by journey4word (214) 11 years ago

yes I am :) and i will continue to vote for barack obama and soon he and me will rule the world!

[-] -1 points by YRUSoStupid (26) 11 years ago

The OWS represents ultra-left wing nutcases that should be locked away in a mental institution until they can think enough to not be a danger to society and themselves.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

unlike those that support the present system? like you?

[-] -1 points by stevo (314) 11 years ago

It's a fucking party..nothing more. Enjoy the fun...until you get tuberculosis that is.

[-] -2 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

It will be called entitlementism, the belief that you are owed something you have not earned

[-] 2 points by Frizzle (520) 11 years ago

So you basically live in the woods. Not using any technology at all. Because you didn't invent or create them yourself? And I have to say i'm impressed that you got through childhood without being handed anything you didn't earn.

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

Silly comment

[-] 1 points by Frizzle (520) 11 years ago

I know. but it's not less silly as yours. And that was the point.

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

Read all the posts on this blog and my post is absolutely on point. Some people want thoughtful reform, such as, getting money out of politics, others see it as a way to get a hand out.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

what? well, I've paid 34% payroll tax all my working life and I haven't seen SHIT. what you call a hand out, I call my government using that money for things I want or need. like health care. where's that? you mean, on top of the tax money I've spent, I have to pay for health care? if I'm not getting a "hand out" for my own tax money, the why should I pay taxes?

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

You left the USA so why are you in this discussion?

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

that's a stupid question. If I had stayed, you would have said something as stupid. Like, "If you don't like it, then leave." In other words, don't say anything. I've been told to just get a job. Well, the job was here, so, I took it. I couldn't find anything in the US, so, here I am. You know, it doesn't matter what I do, your type will never be satisfied unless people like me are dead or are quiet.

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

No i think you are an example of our global economy and how resources move around the globe like never before

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

soooo... why the question about "why are you in this discussion"? the immoral actions of goldman sachs has caused the collapse of the Greek economy. nothing happens in this world in a vacuum. that's why the occupy movement is worldwide and is here to stay.

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

My work has me traveling and working with major multinationals. My knowledge is from my direct experience working in greece specifically, euro zone, russia, china, brazil, mexico. I am not in financial services, i work with consumer and industrial companies. I have direct knowledge. You have the facts just wrong and i hope you do you homework better than you have. Best wishes to you.

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

I wish i did i would have retired already, bad joke. Again research more fully the greece default crisis and speak to friends who are greeks and you will add a new dimension to your understanding. Be well.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

its you that needs to research. I have Greek friends. I have a lot of friends from all over the world. I live in Prague. I live in the EU economy, well the edge of it. don't assume that if someone disagrees with you that its because of a lack of knowledge either academic or experiential. that might be perceived as arrogant. you be well also.

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

No i just stated that greece did not buy credit defaultswaps. The global collapse i covered in an earlier post which included many who were at fault including goldman and others. The global collapse quicken the greece debt crisis, but its down grade was a result of excessive borrowing and excessive social spending.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

and your assumption is wrong. do you live in Greece?

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

I wish i did i would have retired already. Again research more fully the greece default crisis and speak to friends who are greeks and you will add a new dimension to your understanding. Be well.

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

I have tried to provide you with the unvarnished truth, but you singleminedness will not allow the facts to help you gain a better understanding. Nothing i have said denies the need of reform, but to make reforms we have to know what happened. Its complex and requires research so you are not swayed by the rhetoric of one side or the other.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

and yet, you already deny goldman sachs involvement in the global collapse and the collapse of the Greek economy before the discussion even begins.

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

Please do some research into greece. They did not buy credit default swaps from goldman or anyone. Greece was impacted by the tighter global credit crunch and their downgrade tojunk bond status. Their ability to borrow has been hurt as they have to pay very high interest rates due to the risk of potential default. So the euro zone has reached a deal to forgive 50% of their debt if they agree to make spending cuts and reduce their social programs like requiring them to raise their retirement age fro 52 yes 52 to a normal age like every other country...say 62. This is one example of the entitlements that greece established.

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

Greece did not purchase credit default swaps. They ran up debt that eventually became junk bond status. greece was impacted by tighter credit following the credit meltdown due to the credit default swaps, especially by sovern wealth funds. Greece tried to borrow to feed their social program addiction and the interest rates became so high due to their junk bond status that they need a bailout. You need to due more homework of the facts or you will continue to reach faulty conclusions

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

you are incorrect. just about 100% incorrect.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

and what alternate parallel universe did this happen? you are making shit up. cart before the horse.

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

As you may know it was the Clinton Administration through HUD, that forced the banks to lower their lending standard to increase homeownership to low income families. Ibthink it was called the Fair Housing Act. Both freddie and fannie objected, but the Clinton won. Then the Fed's low interest rate policies, coupled with the low standards for required credit created the perfect storm. Then unregulated derivative instruments were created that bundled these non credit worthy mortgages together and the rating agencies that bare no accountablity to anyone nor are they independent gave them as younsay gold stars. Perfect storm and more than enough blame to go around. I am unaware that greece invested in these mortgage derivative instruments. I thinknthey just borrrowed to much and cannot make the required payments due to the decline in tax revenues due to the economic down turn. You must admit greece is no germany when it comes to generating productivity and gdp

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

you are unaware that the Greek government purchased these products from goldman sachs? you can't be serious. no, really, you can't be.

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

These product blew up a few years ago, so it seems the impact would of caused them to go downward then. You being unaware of the clinton administration forcing banks to lower the credit standars is far more unbelievable

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

I have to reply to you here. If a country racks up debt to pay for excessive social programs due to shortfalls in their tax revenues, that is what happened in greece. Eventually the piper has to be paid. I agree that goldman and many institutions were part of the global economic mess, but i must add that govt policy also added to it, and good people who spent beyond their means. The lack of regulation over derivitive instruments and hedge funds is also to blame.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

I agree with lack of government regulation over business. but, you cannot tell me that the Greek social programs caused their current crisis. the economic collapse is a direct result of the sub-prime products that goldman sachs was selling as a sure thing. After all, it got the stamp of approval from the clearinghouses as "five star" who were getting a kickback from goldman sachs. Possibly, I can't say and you can't say, that maybe the Greek social programs could have eventually caused economic problems. and maybe not. we will never know now. quite possibly, over the course of years, the Greeks would have seen trouble coming and made some changes in their social programs and maybe not. but, the huge worldwide collapse of economies WAS the direct result of unregulated and merged entities of bank/insurance that cooked up these sub-prime products of hundreds of sub-prime mortgages that were then sold as if they were gold. and please, don't blame the folks that went for the sub-prime mortgages. if a bank says you qualify, you should be able to rely on their expertise. just as you can rely on a lawyers or a doctor's expertise.

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

The greeks love for entitlements caused them to run up debt not Goldman. goldman and other lent them monies but the social policies of greece caused greece to get into their mess. Now they expect other countries to bail them out without expecting reforms to their insane social give aways!? And you think they should vote! That is laughable....the greeks are addicted to the social give aways, of course they will not vote end or curtail them.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

yeah, well, we will never know whether the Greek social system would have caused an economic collapse in Greece. but, what we do know is that goldman sachs and others DID cause the global economic crisis. goldman sachs beat the Greek people to it. The Greek people don't think its fair to pay a debt that the Greek government and goldman sachs cooked up (corporate and individual greed at the highest level) I guess you also believe that the people being foreclosed/evicted are the ones that caused the banking and insurance collapse. We should have used the TARP money to pay off everyone's mortgage and let the financial institutions responsible for the collapse FAIL. you are the one that is laughable.

[-] 1 points by Frizzle (520) 11 years ago

Nope. no one is asking for a hand out. not one single person. It is nothing more then a strawman to prevent talking about the flaws of capitalism.

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

The posts are filled with comments that would result in the redistributiion of wealth. Those are handouta

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

when you talk about redistribution of wealth, what you are talking about is where did our tax money go? straight to corporate profits and none of it to the people. in fact, it was OUR tax money that bailed the banks out, and now they are kicking us out of our homes. we should have used that TARP money to pay all our mortgages off - we'd still have money left over for,, oh, I don't know, stuff like health care and education!

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

The bank bailout monies were an infusion of liquidity into our banking system. Since they were disbursed the banks have repaid them 100%. thats a fact.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

no, its not a fact. But, here's a fact, I, as a voter wasn't asked if I wanted this done with MY tax money. I think it would have been much better for them to FAIL and end the present corrupt system that you love so much.

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

The monies were paid back, many of the banks did not want the money, but the fed believed iit would avert a deep depression. AIG is not a bank and they got bailout .I did not say i loved anything but i do love true facts.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

if you love facts, why do you insist on repeating the lie of "the money was paid back"? it has not been. and you still didn't address my fact that WE the voters were not asked if we think our TAX money should in fact be used for TARP. when I watch the G20 meeting, it seems to me very telling that one of the conditions forced upon the Greek people was to take away their right to VOTE on the referendum of austerity. why should the Greek people pay the debt that goldman sachs caused. not only does goldman sachs not have to pay the debt that they caused, the people bailed them out! the rich and powerful make the decisions while the people look on. this is why the occupy movement is not going away. the people demand to be heard and if they are not listened to, they will take action to tear down the present system.

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

I have to reply this way. The monies were paid back with a return. Only AIG owes money. greece incurred their own debt not Goldman. The Greeks lived the OWS dream of entitlements. They grew to love the expensive social give aways and it caused them to run up debt. There retirment age was in ones early 50's as an example. You cannot vote on this issue because the greeks will want the status quo which means other countries have to foot the bill of their excesses. One last point, the monies infused into the banks carried significant requirements to limit executive compensation. As long as the banks had the money the govt had a right to oversee executive comp. No bank wanted the govt involved in the decisions that their Board makes. That said the banks paid it back quickly. Its documented and i am not going to do research for you but google it. You can also look at audited financial statements of the major bank to see it was repaid.

[-] 1 points by Frizzle (520) 11 years ago

sigh Hand out would mean that one person or group has something they are entitled to that another person or group is given who is not entitled to it.

But what makes that one person or group more important that they are entitled to more? And don't say hard work. Because the top 1% do not work harder then the other 99% They aren't entitled to more. They simply take more because they can. Not because the earn it.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 11 years ago

No reply button down there again. I think this thread is too big. So, our convo will be a bit garbled!

I think we both agree that greed is not good. I personally believe that greed is a personal failure of morality. But I make a distinction between greed and individual pursuit of prosperity. Indiv pursuit of prosperity is good. It is strong motivating force and is necessary for capitalism. However, individual unrestrained greed, even if you believe its good for the individual (which I don't because I believe it is a moral failure), is harmful to society. But banning the individual pursuit of prosperity is also harmful to society. Example being the former Soviet Union and collective farming. The collective farms, which provided no individual incentives, did not produce enough food.

However, the individual pursuit of prosperity "can" lead to greed and other not so good traits (selfishness, lack of empathy). "Can", but not always! There are lots of wealthy people that are altruistic! And do great things for our world with their money.

So I think the answer is to find the right BALANCE between unrestrained greed, including the unrestrained approval of greed (too many people in our society think that greed is good - which is horrifying! A true and real problem in our society), and the individual pursuit of prosperity with restraints on greed.

I think socialism/collectivism are set up to fail because it lacks individual pursuit of prosperity. I think unrestrained capitalism is set up to fail because it encourages greed. The answer is somewhere in the middle. Finding the right balance. And finding that balance will be a CONSTANT struggle that we must endure.

Currently, we are in a place where the pendulum has swung too far toward unrestrained capitalism and greed. But I think this can be easily solved (not so easy to implement though!) with the proper government policies and regulation. Government policies and regulation is necessary to achieve the right balance.

Example - in the 1950s - 80 the top tax rates were close to 90%. This restrained greed. The government used this revenue to accomplish major infrastructure projects that benefitted all of society. Nobody batted an eye at those tax rates at that time. And the wealthy people that paid those rates still lived wonderfully comfortable lives and our economy flourished.

I believe a "sustainable" healthy society will always have to struggle for the right balance between collectivism and capitalism. And government is necessary to do that.

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

Level of education, skils and emotional intelligence is what drives the diference in wages. There are exceptions to this, but as a rule the difference in wages is driven by these factors. One's abilities and thus greater value holds true in sports, business, vocational careers. The highest GPA gets into the best schools or get the better jobs. Its quite clear. Now the American worker has to compete globally and this is the harsh reality we face. The chinese are not cheap labor anymore, no they want to be known as the best and most skilled worforce.

[-] 1 points by Frizzle (520) 11 years ago

How is that in any way a response to my post?

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 11 years ago

Hi again Frizzle! I'm responding to your post below but there was no reply option there. I wanted to jump in to agree with you!

You are right. Education does not explain the wealth disparity today. Skills that are in demand and education should provide for higher wages. Thats part of what drives motivation and success. And this is a key component to healthy capitalism.

But what we have today is unhealthy corporatism, as a result of money in the political system. The Financial sector is particularly unhealthy. Needs much stronger regulation. Glass-Stegall for the banks and perhaps even more for the derivitives market. As for hedge funds and market traders. Perhaps tax "each" trade. This has been debated in Washington before. This would cut down on volatility in the markets and make traders "work" a little harder for their money. They would have to put more thought into each trade that they make. Not just wildly and recklessly toss other peoples money around.

Back to wealth disparity. I think this could best be explained by saying that the system is rigged towards the 1%. Since the 1% have been making most of the rules for themselves the past 20 or so odd years, its little wonder that they make rules in their own favor. This is the result of the degradation of Campaign Finance laws over time. Certain Supreme Court decisions have eroded what little campaign finance rules that there are. Two fairly recent ones are Citizens United v FEC and Buckley v Valeo. Many many experts and scholars agree and predicted that these decisions would have a negative impact on our country and democracy.

And - here we are!

[-] 1 points by Frizzle (520) 11 years ago

Hey again :)

Sounds like we have the same end goal in mind. The big difference being that you seem to say it can be achieved by fixing capitalism. While i think capitalism will always fall back to corruption, since greed is the driving force of it.

However, having stronger regulation regulations as you described it would go a long way into making it livable for a now. I strongly believe we have to also move toward a more sustainable system not based on competition.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 11 years ago

how is that a response to my post? I mean, it is MY post.

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

You asked why certain people get more than other, and i did not say hard work as you requested, but instead explained why people are paid more than others

[-] 1 points by Frizzle (520) 11 years ago

can't seem to reply to your last post so i'll do it here

Hedge fund managers are the perfect example. They make tons of money but do nothing useful. In fact you could even argue that what they do is actually harmful to society. Their skills are gone to waste while they could be doing something productive instead. And most of them aren't doing it because they like it. But simply because it's easy money.

So sure, being rewarded for a good education is fine. But only if you actually do something useful with it. The way it is now just doesn't make sense.

[-] 1 points by Frizzle (520) 11 years ago

ok fair enough. But you agree that education can't explain the big differences we see today?

[-] 0 points by Fedup10 (228) 11 years ago

When i look at the hedge fund managers and they make a ton. Usually they are math wizards from univ of chicago and other schools that are real strong in quanatative analysis. It is their education that got them into theses mba programs. They make a bunch of money for people and get rewarded if they are good. That said dtheybshould not be taxed at cap gain rates but rather at corporate tax rates. They do not have overseas operations so they would have to pat the 35% rate.