Forum Post: Outdated system
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 17, 2011, 12:36 p.m. EST by Humppeli
(23)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/
Not without fault but a hell of a lot better than our outdated monetary system.
Think about it. Uncontrolled population growth, uncontrolled greed. Infinite economic growth paradigm just doesn't work on a finite planet.
The debt isn't going anywhere, jobs are not coming back and eventually resources are running out.
@Hump - Check out http://www.thevenusproject.com/ too
Sure you might have heard of it, but I agree with you, we have seriously problems, which we need to address as a global community, not as a fractured little cells hell bent on destroying each other
The problem is nobody is going to address it because they are too busy blaming someone else for it.
Yeh. We should all work together. Whatever it is, venus project, zeitgeist movement, occupy movement, sustainability advocates, Ron Lawl, michael moore, you name it. Things won't get done until we all start talking to each other.
Talking is all thats being done mostly blaming the other guy while taking our money
In a sense you are right but i fear that when action is the only way then it means blood, destruction and death.
But if all the people would just decide that no more. I will not use banks, i will not support those wars. i will not work for those etc... Then it would be a non-violent revolution. I mean what could the powerful do when the cops wouldn't enforce their laws, soldiers wouldn't fight their wars?
@barb - There is nothing I can do for America, but there is something that I can do locally here in South Africa, and that is to spread knowledge about what is going on in the world, and to try and uplift education.
We are sitting with the same social and economical issues down here, and that is why I follow the OWS movement closely. I convey my thoughts on a regular basis back home, and I get involved in my small community, in the hope that it will someday encompass the whole country, so that we can works towards common goals, like finite resources, the lack of proper education, the loss of manufacturing capabilities, food shortages and living space.
You are absolutely right, spreading seeds (information) is how things can grow in ideas.
@bard - I hope we have enough time to spread information and education before everything comes to a grinding halt ... I shudder to think on the thought.
I hope so too.
Yes!
Jobs are becoming obsolete due to advances in technology. This should be a key issue with the OWS movement.
Check these links out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0Z8TR4ToNs
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired-success/201109/are-jobs-we-know-them-becoming-obsolete
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/09/07/rushkoff.jobs.obsolete/
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/24/technology/economists-see-more-jobs-for-machines-not-people.html?_r=1
Even moreso the social structure around our current population is not going to hold up as class dynamics change, as the environment of jobs and financial institutions change. The foundation this country was created upon is a good basis, but it's rigid interpretation cannot contain all that has come into existence today within the modern social sphere. Amendments to better suit our modern needs must be made, and must be made for the good of all if we are going to regulate ourselves and remain competent in global affairs on all levels.
Go change, go!
There is no such thing as exponential or uncontrolled. There is no possible way for the population to continue to grow as it has been.
Yes there is an exponential, try mathematics.
And yes it cannot go on but it will, which means more hunger, war, dying, suffering etc...
There are exponential equations but give me one example of exponential growth in nature anywhere and I will retract my statement.
Nothing lasts forever in nature...That's why infinite growth paradigm ideologies need to be dumped.
In that case there can be no exponential human growth right?
Correct...and that bubble is due to collapse in 5..4..3...2..
That's why currency used to be connected with something of value..Gold..It prevents The Money Makers from getting out of hand...It's way out of hand...
With a monetary standard we cannot do trade with countries that do not hold the same monetary standard
http://www.learner.org/interactives/dailymath/population.html
There is one example.
Oh well, gotta go now. Piu!
There is no way of knowing what the human population is going to do so try again big man.
Quick rebuttal, you asked, i gave you an answer. It has increased exponentially. We cannot know what it does in the future, but it is likely that it will slow down but still grows because people will not stop breeding all of a sudden.
So you are saying that population growth isn't a problem? Funny.
Yes I'm saying that population growth is not a problem because it cannot continue to be exponential.
Zeitgeist is 95% bullshit
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/articles/zeitgeist/
You could also argue that the whole article is 95% bullshit.
Hasn't Zeitgeist been debunked a zillion times over?
Nope. And zillion is quite a large number.
Hasn't the current social/economical structure been debunked gazillion times and it still goes on?
Sure it has, but that's a logical fallacy your pulling out of your hat mister: two wrongs don't make a right.
Sorry you were saying that Zeitgeist is like the social/economical structure, both debunked, but both still moving along? OK. We agree.
Nope, i am saying that while there might be faults in the ideas zeitgeist and the resource based economy has, it is definitely worth thinking about it and trying it.
We have never tried it. We have tried this old outdated system and it simply doesn't work.
It is easy to cause chaos and protest, and it is easy to post "cool" one-liner comments but i don't see you or any of the debunkers offering solutions.
You don't see me offering solutions? Hell, read my posts buddy! I offered plenty. And good ones, not like your Zeitgeist nonsense. Zeitgeist bad. Very very bad.
I'm saying you should drop Zeitgeist because it has been debunked and is crap. And you should instead promote the Venus Project. I agree we should try the idea, but not on an entire nation. The idea should be tried in a small village first. You can't try an untested idea nation wide. So, yeah, get with your friends and create a small village and start using that system. When you start fixing the problems it has in practice, and it will have problems because all theories aren't perfect in practice, then start a second village. When you have covered an area large enough, and showed it works, then you can try it on a whole nation. But first, drop Zeitgeist because it's pure conspiracy theory nonsense. Remember, Venus Project. http://www.thevenusproject.com/ Always Venus. Only Venus. Not Zeitgeist. Zeitgeist bad. Very very bad.
I promote and support both. They offer many of the same solutions. Erm... are you by chance talking about zeitgeist:the movie (first one in the series), and especially it's first and second part about religion and 9/11??
I'm talking about the movies and everything else. Zeitgeist is a conspiracy theory. The Venus Project is backed by a real intellectual: Jacque Fresno. Zeitgeist used some of his ideas and they worked together for a short time, but Jacque wasn't happy with Zeitgeist and how it ended up being unscientific and essentially conspiracy theory nonsense. The Venus Project is not associated with Zeitgeist anymore. Remember. Jacque Fresno and Venus Project good, but Zeitgeist bad. Very very bad. Zeitgeist give Fresno and the Venus Project a bad name. Don't associate them together please. Fresno is the real brains. Promote him. I visited him a few times, trust me, he's a really cool and very smart guy.
Yeah, The Venus Project has workable solutions
That is naive. Zeitgeist isn't a conspiracy theory and Fresco shares many of the ideas Joseph does. And conspiracies are everywhere. When two girls talk shit about some other girl, even that could labeled a conspiracy. Banks have conspiracies, corporations have conspiracies, governments have conspiracies.
How is it a conspiracy when Peter Joseph says that banks don't care about you, they only care about money. Corporations will pollute if they can, is that a conspiracy? Is population growth a conspiracy? Resources running out, a conspiracy?
Again, logical fallacy: Two wrongs don't make a right. (You really like that one ;)
Another logical fallacy: It's not because someone says one thing that is true that everything else is.
The conspiracy theory lies in the details. Read. He has been debunked time and time again.
Repeat after me: I will no longer use logical fallacies. I will no longer believe in Zeitgeist. I have read the arguments against them, and realize they have been debunked. I will now follow the Venus Project because Mr. Fresco is a very smart man. He is an intellectual, and if Joseph has similar ideas it is because he took them from Fresco. Fresco has since decided to stay away from Zeitgeist because it is nothing more than a conspiracy theory. It is bad. Very very bad.
Hehe, you really like to use your logical fallacy statements everywhere it seems. And in the wrong places :)
He says many things that are true, so does Fresco. I have read and listened a ton of material from both and a ton of material from other thinkers.
Being close minded. It is bad. Very very bad.
Who doesn't? My wife tells me things that are true everyday. What's important are things that are true, novel, and interesting. Stuff that's just true is boring as hell.
I also read through the materials of both men. But, unlike you, when I read a thinker like Peter Joseph, the next thing I do is read his critic. You should try that, it will open your mind.
I read critics of him and zeitgeist all the time. He is not perfect, and neither is Fresco. But both are right on many things. And who cares where the ideas come? We need to listen to both of them, and many others as well. It is idiotic to complain about who was first or who is more right. Both have their faults but the ideas are solid. Even Ron Lawl is right on many things, i don't agree with all of his politics but he would make a better president than any of the other candidates.
Do you mean Ron Paul? Who is Ron Lawl?
We can agree to disagree. I think the real intellectual and interesting fellow is Jacque Fresco. Peter Joseph, I put in the dumpster with my leftovers.
Well at least you are halfway on-board. Yes paul, i just typed a bit too fast, but then again Ron Lawl would be even better ;)
OK. Ron Paul then. Sorry, I don't like calling people names. I never figured out why so many people here call him Ron Lawl. Americans have a sense of humor I sometimes do not understand.
I don't think we are trading in our government vehicle for a new one.
just taking it to the 99% repair shop.
[Removed]
A resource based economy will send us back pre Middle Ages. No thank you.
No it doesn't. For starters middle ages didn't have advanced technology as we have today.
Eventually technology will replace almost all the workforce so technological unemployment will rise.
Uh huh............right...........someone's got to build, design, and maintain those machines you know.
Yes someone not everyone has to maintain but the machine has to be designed only once and it can be built with automation tech.
You have to keep redesigning, making more efficient, making more machine to fulfill ever expanding needs. Besides, who wants that kind of world anyways? It will be like Wall E where we all become fat asses with no ambitions and nothing to show for our lives.
I like to design automated machines and optimize already existent. If only I have time and resources for it...
And if you want to be "fat ass with no ambitions", that's your problem. No one likes "fat ass with no ambitions", but you will still want to find friends and a sole-mate.
Yes but redesigning would be done out of need, not consumerism. And it would be done in a sustainable way.
Aren't many americans fat asses already? You have to redefine your values. Mostly ambition means useless competition against others.
And trust me you would have a hell of a lot more to show in your life in a non-monetary system. What do many people have to show for their lives now? Endless consumption, useless existence, competing against each other and generally feeling bad and stressed out all the time.
I don't know who you're talking about but it's not me. Sure I'm stressed. But that's necessary for my good health. Me not stressed is a horrid sight to see. Me without goals and striving for them is a horrible waste of life.
@Daennera - Hehe, I know what you mean about not being stressed, but I seriously think the constant hurrying about and trying to secure money for food, housing, cars etc are halting our evolution and decimating our family structures as well as causing us to be apathetic towards others.
Then it's a personal problem. If you can't feel safe and OK once you have the basics, then maybe these people need a mental health professional and not a protest.
It is not the basics they are worried about, I am pretty sure more of your protesters have the basics, they don't look or sound like homeless people.
They are worried about those who have more than they can use in a life-time, for example, Carlos Slim, Warren Buffett, and Bill Gates. That is the ones we know about, trust me, there are far sinister people out there with more wealth who choose to remain behind the scenes.
They are not worried about those who have more then they can use in a lifetime, its the fact that they are all hoarding it and not building manufacturing jobs here in the US. The money used to circulate better then it does now.
And why do these people care what others have? Don't these people have better things to do with their time than even give a passing thought to people they've never met before?
I think this rises from our national obsession with celebrity and reality TV. The only people that matter are those who are in your house. (btw: I use the word "house" loosely. It includes everyone I care about, not just those related by blood or marriage)
[Removed]
I hear you but you don't need a monetary system to achieve your goals. And stress isn't good for your health. Just google it. :)
I love stress. And I'm quite healthy so far. When there's no mountains to climb and no wars to fight, THEN I get depressed. It's not cool to live in a world where it's all easy. It's my own worst nightmare.
As i said, in time you would want to do things that you wouldn't otherwise had done. And really, stress kills.
It is all about values of the individual and society. We need a new value system. Revolution of the mind! :)
I like to design automated machines and optimize already existent. If only I have time and resources for it...
@Daennera - Please read up on the Singularity moment pertaining to technology, we are creeping towards it already.
It is naive to think that technology in the form of AI will still need their engineers a 100 years from now, and even if it was the case, the machines will be able to build other machines and maintain them.
So, where does that leave the humans who used to do those tasks?
Machines replacing Humans, who would do such a thing, oh wait they already have been doing that since the technical age began.