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Forum Post: Oppression due to Fear vs. Freedom due to Vigilence

Posted 2 years ago on March 9, 2012, 12:18 p.m. EST by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

About 2800 people died on 9/11. At least 10 times that amount or more die in traffic accidents every year. Yes, the first is murder and the second is accidental. But death is death no matter how it happens. Everyone will die someday. Some will die today.

Must we give up our precious freedoms for the whole nation because some people might die by terrorism? Everyone dies, whether by car wreck or terrorist bomb. But does everyone live, in the sense of having freedom to live, when their rights are stripped away?

Let the government do everything it can to prevent terrorism at home and abroad. But let it also stop short of curtailing the Bill of Rights to do so.



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[-] 4 points by GirlFriday (21780) 2 years ago

Great post. I agree.

We should not give up as much as we have.

[-] 3 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

Thanks GF. As you can probably tell, I am getting pretty worked up (aka pissed) about this whole removal of rights thing that is going on. As a matter of fact, for me personally, it is starting to take front-and-center over economic disparity (1% vs. 99%) because you can't do anything about wealth inequality if you don't even have the right to collectively come together to address it.

That is what I see the trend to be, and I am pretty f--king pissed off about it!!!

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20415) 2 years ago

I wonder what the statistics are, but I think we are as likely to be struck by lightening as we are to be killed by a terrorist act.

[-] 2 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

So let's look at some hypothetical statistics then. Let's say the US suffers another terrorist attack that results in 10 times the amount of deaths on 9/11, or about 28,000 deaths. 28,000 divided by 300 million total population is 0.0000933333333333, or about 9/1000ths of 1 percent.

Let's make the total death figure 100 times the number on 9/11. That's 280,000 killed. 280,000 divided by 300 million is 9/100ths of 1 percent.

Let's say 1 million people were killed. 1 million divided by 300 million is 0.0033333333333333, or about 3/10ths of 1 percent.

The National Lightening Safety Institute estimates approximately 1000 victims/year/average, with a then US population of 280,000,000. So chances are 1:280,000, or 0.0000035714285714, or about 3/10,000ths of 1 percent being a victim of lightening strike.

So, at 28,000 dead, you actually do have an infinitesimally greater chance of being killed by terrorism under this hypothetical than by lightening. But this just brings up the original point of whether it is worth removing the Bill of Rights just to attempt to protect this really, really tiny amount of potential terror victims.

Bottom Line: Terrorism gets a lot of media attention because that is the kind of story the media craves,that is, it will get them a good market share. But the actual numbers are ridiculously small in comparison to total population.

Not statistically valid to warrant removal of the Bill of Rights, as in Patriot Act, NDAA, HR 347, etc.

People overreact and behave irrationally.

The Power-Elite has seized upon this opportunity to curtail civil liberties in the name of counter-terrorism.

It is a PLOT.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20415) 2 years ago

Thanks, Underdog. Good work. Just what I thought.

[-] 0 points by Dost (315) 2 years ago

First of all, learn how to spell vigilance. Second of all, the Bill of Rights is not worth shit. If the authorities want to take it away, they do. Then you have to fight them. Most people do not have the money (to hire a lawyer), the time, and the patience. Literally, careers are ruined. Whistle Blowers get screwed ALL the TIME. A recent classic case was a NYPD office who revealed rampant corruption in the dept. He has not been paid for the past two years and is living with his father. This stuff goes on all the time. My niece was manhandled by the police in Tacoma , WA, thrown in jail and then the police lied, made up charges, charging her with a felony. It is 100 times worse for people of color. I just heard a story today of an innocent man jailed for five days because the police abused their powers. The courts typically defend these abuses. It happens every day everywhere. The people of this country are giving away their freedoms for security. The country is going fascist before our eyes. The plutocrats control the govt. You are totally naive. Do you ever get out? Have you EVER really put your body on the line. You must be a kid. Man, dude, talk to your elders who fought in the 1960s-1990s. You kids live in a total bubble. Get real.

[-] 2 points by ClearTarget (216) 2 years ago

Not everyone is willing to take abuse laying down. Regardless if people can afford a lawyer or not, people will fight. Even if all that crap happens everyday, we don't have to accept it. No one ever said fighting authorities would be easy.

I don't understand why you bash the topic starter in the last part of your commentary when you both share similar goals.

[-] 1 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

1) Thanks for the spelling correction

2) I am 56 years old, and I have been around the block. I know how bad the world is and how it is getting worse every day. I know about human rights abuses all over the world. Why do you think I am here spending all my spare time typing? Just to hear myself talk? There are LOTS of other things I could be doing, but I consider this to be very important.

3) How old are you? You sound like a teenager who just woke up to the harsh realities of the world and have adopted a negativistic, defeatist, whining attitude. Adults acknowledge the difficulties and challenges of life and resolve to work toward improving things. What words have you provided above that can inspire and move people to make positive changes? How far would Ghandi or King have gotten with such eloquence as you have expounded?

[-] 1 points by Dost (315) 2 years ago

Actually, I am a former activist who spent some twenty years involved in many causes from political to environmental to social. Besides teaching in the ghetto, Peace Corps, going to Nicaragua during the Sandinista Revolution, raising thousands of dollars for a variety of causes and helping to run a Green Party campaign, etc. etc., I have been a student of politics and history for some forty years. I say what I say because the OWS Movement is a massively disorganized phenomena and from what I have read and seen, I am NOT impressed. Some of the most basic lessons of organizing are apparent in their absence and there is a LOT of naivete and absurd idealism from too many folks who DO NOT know much about the American Political system. For example, YOU will never change things by simply voting. It is impossible. The system is so dysfunctional and corrupt, it is impossible. But I understand you have your own learning curve. It's just that it is apparent that VERY few are actually doing any REAL organizing. Perpetual mindless activity will get you nowhere fast. Believe me, I have been there.

[-] 1 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

I agree with a lot of what you have just said. I have advocated from day one (and still do) that Occupy needs some type of leader or spokesperson to represent it. Even an ant colony has a queen to rally around. But Occupy is committed to the new 21st Century paradigm of Internet-driven, leaderless, movement. They saw it work in the recent revolutions in Egypt and Libya and think it can be adapted to a economic revolution. I tend to have my doubts, but we will see.

If you read many of my Forum Posts, you will see that I am frequently "at odds" with many of the most frequent contributors. I passionately believe in what they are trying to do, but do not agree with a lot of how they are trying to do it. I advocate mass-media messaging via PSAs (because they are the cheapest way to do it) to educate the masses, a "war chest" of funding to use for lobbying efforts, etc., formulation of National Occupy Action Committee to bring reforms directly to Washington in the form of grievances, National Referendums, and so on. I have argued for the ascendancy of Coopertives to replace the Corporate model, adopting various aspects of Social Democracy as typified by various Scandinavian countries (particularly Sweden), abolishment of the Federal Reserve, and other things.

All of my Forum Posts can be viewed by going to my profile. Copy/paste any one of them into your browser URL, and read to your hearts content (or discontent).

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

About 42,000 die each year in traffic accidents in the US. 2.9 million are injured.

There are more than 6,240,000 accidents per year at a cost $230 billion.

Collision avoidance radar (CAR) for an auto costs $2100, and we buy about 11 million cars per year.

Cost of Accidents: $ 230 billion

Cost to add CAR to the yearly US fleet: $ 23 billion

Seems like a cheap solution.

[-] 1 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

Thanks for pointing that out. Good to know.

[-] -1 points by BlackSun (275) from Agua León, BC 2 years ago

100% agreement here. But Amerika is a nation made up of too many terrified pansies.

[-] 1 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

Unfortunately, fear rules the world. We just can't seem to rise above the whole preditor vs. prey reality. A few visionaries like Buddha, King, Jesus, Ghandi, and other lesser-knowns showed the way for us common folk, but there aren't enough people yet who really "get it" to make the global shift possible.

Real bummer, huh?