Forum Post: ONE OF THE WORLD'S GREATEST AUTHORS gets to the heart of the message of the Occupy movement
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 1, 2012, 10:41 p.m. EST by therising
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"Today, everyone asserts his own personality and strives to live a full life as an individual. But these efforts lead not to a full life but to suicide, because instead of realizing his personality, man only slips into total isolation. For in our age, man has been broken up into self-contained individuals, each of whom retreats into his lair, trying to stay away from the rest, hiding himself and his belongings from the rest of mankind, and finally isolating himself from people and people from him.
And while he accumulates material wealth in his isolation, he thinks with satisfaction how mighty and secure he has become, because he is mad and cannot see that the more goods he accumulates, the deeper he sinks into suicidal impotence. The reason for this is that he has become accustomed to relying only on himself; he has split off from the whole and become an isolated unit; he has trained his soul not to rely on human help, not to believe in man and mankind, and only to worry that the wealth and privileges he has accumulated may get lost.
Everywhere men today are turning scornfully away from the truth that the security of the individual cannot be achieved by his isolated efforts but only by mankind as a whole.
BUT AN END to this fearful isolation is bound to come and all men will understand how unnatural it was for them to have isolated themselves from one another. This will be the spirit of the new era and people will look in amazement at the past when they sat in darkness and refused to see the light. . . . . . Until that day, we must keep hope alive, and now and then a man must set an example, even if only an isolated one, by trying to lift his soul out of its isolation and offering it up in an act of brotherly communion, even if he is taken for one of God's fools.
This is necessary to keep the great idea alive."
~ Dostoevsky
Those are brilliant and self-evidently truthful words. Yet how many conservatives have I read on this forum who relentlessly advocate rugged John Wayne individualism as some sacred cow of ideology, as if testosterone were the only basis for survival. Delusional. Our problems are now so great that they can only be solved (if in fact they can be solved at this late point) through deep cooperation. Rugged individualism is a concept for simpler and more primitive times.
That is an excellent way to put it. Beautifully said. If more people understood this in their bones and used it as a template for problem solving (no matter what the front), we'd be in a great position to beat back so many of the challenges that are preventing us humans from reaching our potential. Even out of blind patriotism, this would be the arrest course of action for Americans.
So how to we get this word to sink in? We all have a story of how we discovered this truth. What's your short version in a sentence or two? I'd like to ask a lot of people on this forum that question. My short version is this: I read James Baldwin's book "Another Country". I was never the same after that. I looked at the world with new eyes. It confirmed / uncovered experiences and intuitions whose significance had apparently laid dormant for years. This doesn't mean the book did it. But it does mean that book turned a key to unlock a whole different perspective. Reading king and Gandhi soon after that sealed the deal. It felt natural and familiar ---- meaning that it felt human. So, by the time I got the the paragraphs above in Dostevsky's "Brothers Karamazov", I was sort of nodding my head.
Not suggesting books are the vehicle of awakening for all. That was just my experience. What was yours? What woke you up from the dream of blind faith to individualism / mindless sleepwalking in consumerism? Most of us were born into that world and something shook us awake to the deeper potential of further fulfilling ourselves in community with others.
I love Martin King, Jr's quote: I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. And you can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. All of us are inextricably linked."
What a great discovery. We need to uncover ways to spread that wisdom of a community perspective. It has so many real benefits for us as individuals. And it doesn't preclude us also fulfilling ourselves individually. Iit's both, and. Not either or.
I didn't learn it out of books. I think it just came to me as "common sense" when I reached a certain age. I looked around and realized we are in the Age of Specialization, when each person must become expertly knowledgeable in one field, and has perhaps a passing layman's knowledge in everything else. In such a complex society, we cannot possibly survive seperate from others. In a pre-industrial one perhaps, but not now.
But there are Enterprisers on this forum, who perhaps own their own businesses, who advocate for the "spirit of individualism", and truly believe they have achieved success all on their own, all by themselves. They are delusional. Unless one has succeeded in a solitary profession like professional writer/novelist or something similar, those who have built up a business have done so, one way or another, with the assistance of others. But they do not acknowledge this fact, as they tend to view their accomplishments as solitary feats of willpower, where they are ruling their kingdoms issuing orders and rising up on the backs of others. The world of business, being a competitive battlefield, tends to warp minds over time into believing they are all righteous John Galt heros, and that without them the modern world would collapse (the central theme of Rand's Atlas Shrugged). Such is the nature of the mentality of capitalism and what it does to the human mind. It is the perfect vehicle for producing lovers of power and wealth...and it is self-perpetuating. It is destroying this planet through its relentless exploitation of human and natural resources as it seeks to achieve its impossible goal of infinite growth in a finite world. It elevates money and power as the supreme goal, and relegates humanity to mere cogs in the machine.
Don't know if you've seen this video or not, but this is the sobering truth I just detailed above.
You nailed it. That is an excellent description of what it does to the mind of the 1% and the resulting harm. It's in such plain sight and yet most Americans are completely oblivious. How to get through to them..... How do OWS and similar group get to a wider audience?
I have stated this elsewhere, but I believe Occupy needs to evolve to include a Legal arm and a Propaganda arm. Mere protesting is not enough. Also, efforts should be made to figure out a way to increase funding dramatically to pay for those arms I just mentioned. Strategies for attacking bad law in court and getting the core messages on television (public service announcements, idk????) should be developed. How many people consider themselves Occupy? Millions? If each sent in $10 that could go a long way to helping with those things.
You're definitely onto something here. We need the message to reach a larger audience and this will take resources, strategy, tenacity and lots of time and energy. The good news is that there are in fact millions and millions of Americans who agree with the message already. The key is mobilizing that energy into transformative productive action.
Hey, i'm sorry about jumping to conclusions before. I felt like you kept trying to contradict me about bringing people together in our emergencies, and maybe that wasn't your point. I'm not sure what the miscommunication was but i'm sure we can get over it.
What do you think about this as a strategy. For the mass to understand something is has to be simple, and for something to catch on it needs to be consistently distributed. What if occupy had an internet space like this, and what if we used our network of activism to get the world paying attention to it? Any thoughts?
You said: "For the mass to understand something is has to be simple, and for something to catch on it needs to be consistently distributed. What if occupy had an internet space like this, and what if we used our network of activism to get the world paying attention to it?"
What are you referring to when you say "what if Occupy had an Internet space like this.". Do you mean www.occupywallst.org? Or did you mean to post another link in there. Not sure what website you are suggesting be promoted and what you are suggesting should be on it.
I agree with concise clear consistent messaging. Tough to control in a leaderless movement but I suppose there are ways to achieve.
By "this" i meant something simple and consistently distributed.
Spreading various things are great to do but they get lost to a huge number of people, being more stuff in the super storm of information running around on the net. We're segregated like this, and it provides no beacon of organisation, lost among various propaganda, there's no way to be sure of anything. For most people that is overwhelming enough to discurage them.
If we could take the best of our information and package it with a plan into one thing designed simple and well enough for the mass to get a firm grip on, one site that the occupy movement could spread and maintain focus upon, it could actually reach all people.
And this is why occupy can't reach all people. It takes very real marketing practices. A company will use the most generic shapes for a logo with good reason, because when you make it say something that's an opinion, and if you have an opinion you're going to loose most people. People want their own opinions, even if they're the same. Occupy is seen as a protest, that the government is a bad thing, which people don't really want to believe. We have to come from the place that appeals to everyone, an extreme lack of opinion, treating the government as a good thing, not to humiliate it for being so bad but to provide a plan that creates good.
Apparently the group call anonymous tried to tell occupy the same thing, in much fewer words then i've been able to. I've been trying to talk about all of this here. I was hoping other people would have some thoughts or ideas. If we could reach everyone, why not? And before it's too late?
Maybe the site www.occupy.com is something along the lines of what you're talking about. I know one might say "where are the specific lists" but actually the message is loud and clear through example which a sophisticated marketing person might say works better. It's the "show, don't tell" principal.
Yeah, that could be good. It needs a lot more work though. The main thing upfront is too big for my screen, making if confusing. It appears to be news, and when i hit the read button i'm given a choice of 593 different things which all appear to be news. Unless you're interested in random news there is nothing simple for a generic person to adapt to and learn. The upfront page is simple but messy because those pictures dominate your attention with a view of random human chaos. It's really not good to have a lot of pictures because they're distracting and clutter the mind.
I feel like the name occupy and its association with protesting will turn off a lot of people too, but i suppose it's all how you shed the light on something. I think the most important things are to have something well designed for the sake of the dumbfounded human condition and that it be consistently the main voice and organisation of the entire movement for the sake of consistent distribution. That's how it can reach all people, give them the opportunity to understand our situation, and potentially provide an effortless way for them to participate.
There's some good stuff on that list of goals you have. If we can flesh out and create a functional package there's no reason that occupy couldn't reach out to the mass and deliver it. If we understand the problem well enough to start solving it (Citizens United, etc), and all we have to do is unite the mass to force that hand, we really should. Otherwise the mass is content to sit back and watch what happens ... as if anything good will accidently happen.
I agree with quite a bit of what you said here. But here's a question: You said: "There's some good stuff on that list of goals you have. If we can flesh out and create a functional package there's no reason that occupy couldn't reach out to the mass and deliver it. If we understand the problem well enough to start solving it (Citizens United, etc), and all we have to do is unite the mass to force that hand, we really should. Otherwise the mass is content to sit back and watch what happens ... as if anything good will accidently happen."
When you say "if we can flesh out a functional package..." who do you mean "we"? I agree a functional package would be beneficial. But this is a leaderless movement so I'm not sure that's possible for any one person or committee to speak for the group. It may be that Occupy is a fleet of ships instead of one larger tanker and we may be better off for it. Pls see this link: http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-is-a-fleet-of-ships-and-there-is-no-they-in/
Yes i've seen that post, and i'm not saying to pull people off their ships. Think of it like ships discovering land. When a ship discovers land it reports that. The collection of reports is beneficial to everyone. Have a fleet of ships and a tanker is what i'm saying. The mass can't comprehend every ship, but they can keep an eye on the tanker. I've seen so many people wondering how occupy can reach more people, and this is how. Take it from the practices of every single big name company, appeal to the mass as effortlessly as possible.
Jesus bullfrogma, you're asking a lot! :). A fleet of ships and a tanker! Well, who wouldn't want that. It sounds good to me but practically speaking this is a leaderless movement so getting that tanker built and launched is going to be tough. It would be good. But tough.
You said: "Jesus bullfrogma, you're asking a lot! :). A fleet of ships and a tanker! Well, who wouldn't want that. It sounds good to me but practically speaking this is a leaderless movement so getting that tanker built and launched is going to be tough. It would be good. But tough."
Now wait a minute, i know we're at the end of the comment limit but just ask yourself something. If you think "the solution may all come down to waking up enough people" then why do you have no interest in talking about how it could be done? Why blow me off and insinuate that it isn't practical? If this is just about ego then i'll leave you alone. Unified power rather than divided weakness? I'd just like to understand, when you're out here preaching that this is something we need, why you keep putting me down for trying.
Think about it. You can't just say the mass should unite and they will, because they're not even listening. They're playing video games, raising families, and putting all their faith in the government to know what's best. They feel safe under this razor wing. They don't trust uncertainty and they'll watch anything with morbid facination, including their own molestation. If you're going to get through to them you absolutely have to appreciate the condition they're in.
Now if you actually want to talk about this anymore go here.
I don't think so. We can pick out something that has to happen, Citizens United for example, then we can make it happen, using a single website and then utilizing the network of activism we already have to help showcase it. Anonymous is suggesting this same exact thing. It's not hard and it would work.
If somebody can make these nice websites for occupy why not a tanker? We could at least reach the mass and give them the chance to decide about things, which they are not otherwise given (i never even heard of Citizens United before coming here).
Are you going to deny that individualists exist in the world? If not... historically speaking... who wins?
You're proposition is a false choice. It's not one or the other with community and individualism. It's both.
Yes Thx therising - in the very basic - everyone is an individual - with each their own interests strengths weaknesses talents etc. Being an individual however has never required solitude or with drawing away from others/community/society. Being an individual is being one's self. That can be done while being a member of society.
I disagree.
Who wins? How do you define winning? Is the guy who dies with the most stuff the winner, and if so, what did he win?
If there is something to have won, how does he collect?
The guy who survives our destiny with disaster "wins." And it's always been that way. But today's agenda cannot go forward indefinitely without certain disaster; I want to survive it.
So survival alone defines winning? Does it matter what we have to do to survive? Should we be willing to transgress any moral boundary for survival's sake. Should we be willing to murder for it? Should we be willing to live out our lives in a wasteland, with nothing to accompany us but regrets - all because we are so afraid of death?
And if we were willing, what would make us think that we were even worthy of survival, or that there wouldn't just be some bigger preditor out there to carve our flanks?
No, there are worse things than death - far, far worse things - like being a vicious, anti-social thing, a mere shade of a human being - less worthy of consciousness than a reptile, because a reptile doesn't know any better.
You want to survive! And you think you are in control of that destiny?
The mystery here is so much farther out of your control than you could ever realize, so much more mysterious, and glorious, and noble - be it in life or death - then your kill or be killed ethic could ever encompass.
Your "ethic" is nothing but the Dawinian order - and you think you can "win" in That jungle?
Ha.
Survival alone defines winning, yes. Morality, ethics, are but self serving tools, tools of self preservation; there is a very real possibility they will find no application here.
I really don't think you understand the full scope of this "destiny."
We disagree. I think it is you who don't understand the full scope of destiny.
Winning, survival. Is that how far we've sunk that Red above defines these as prime human goals? What happened to the renaissance?
The neo-con agenda is blatantly Darwinian. It is about the survival of the fittest, or in this case simply the most venal; and yes, it is really sad that some of us have sunk to that small measure! What is even more craven though, in my opinion, is that so many of them try to pass off this neolithic view of life as somehow being Christian.
Nothing could more clearly show their actual distain for divinity, their gut level atheism than that hypocricy.
Actually, there are many religions-Christian as well as other-whose dogma relates that there is a hierarchy among both the angels and humanity and that in the end, certain people shall obtain higher levels of divine reward than others will. The Christian scriptures are filled with the idea if one reads them accurately.
So to say that YOUR view of Christianity doesn't gel with theirs and therefore their agenda is Darwinian is nothing more than showing disdain for their interpretation of divinity.
No, their view doesn't "gel" with that of Jesus. I don't have anything to do with it.
American values, Jeffersonian values, are diametrically opposed to the values of modern neo-cons. That they have been able to wrap those views in the flag, and in Christianity, has been their greatest con.
Excellent. Well said!
Unless you're old enough to have met and known Jesus personally, then the only way anyone can determine the views of Jesus is to read His words and teachings. That all people do not interpret those words/teachings in the same manner is obvious to everyone, so the idea that YOU can speak for or accurately represent the personal beliefs of ALL Christians as if they ARE the same is ridiculous.
Of course we might not be using the same definition of neo-con either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism
What's your plan? If it's just a dream, did Bob Dylan have the answer? No! I don't think I want you in my dream.
Why? Why would you deny that a person fulfills him or herself both by being an individual and participating in a community? Would you prefer to live in a walled off gated community with security keeping the have nots out or living in a a thriving dynamic community with good schools, grocery stores, good roads, a nice theater etc.? Are you suggesting that you've given up on living in a community and you've accepted that you're going to side with the 1% who are on the scary end of the widening wealth gap (the 1% who keep pushing their luck taking more and more and more)? The gated community then is really your future if you can afford to be inside its walls. Is that really any way to live?
If we don't address our present dystopia we're all going to be living in gated communities. Well, except for me that is... I've never lived in a "neighborhood" and I don't believe I ever will.
But how do you propose addressing that dystopia you refer to?
They aren't here to further this process of trying to save humanity, they are here to disrupt it.
Sad, but true.
But to what end?
$$$.
Man, that's not much of a reward. So many things so much more rewarding. Like knowing youve left the world better than you found it. Like knowing your children and grandchildren won't have to deal with effects of globał warming. Etc.
Strange isn't it, this propensity to sacrifice all honor and genuine human connection for gain, for stuff, for the inanimate, unresponsive, mute, products of the material world?
What it is really, I think, is that the natural human need of acceptance has been withheld, an thus warped into this loveless illusion of power, which in itself is nothing . . . which becomes the road that leads nowhere except round and round . . . ending in the same old despair.
It's sad really. All that can be done is to try to find a torch and carry it as far as we are able, that we might all find our way.
We need to rediscover the meaning of life ( not you and not I and not the supporters of OWS or Occupy so much - as this is where the kindling of awareness happens ) - LIFE - Family - Friends - Neighbors - A sunny day - time on your hands and a pick-up softball game and bar-b-q. Life and appreciation of the day and of everyone in it.
So true. in passing our lives in an endless quest for material wealth and staus, all we will find when we are old is that our lives have passed. How many rich people have discovered this too late - that when all is said and done the persuit of wealth will not buy you one more minute of earthly life with loved ones, or happiness in open fields; nor will it fortify you in the face of eternity.
It is an hollow substitute for the things of the spirit.
You seem (to me) to think that no one, especially those outside of OWS, does this any more-"take time to have a pick up softball game and bar-b-q-to appreciate the day and everyone in it."
People DO this all the time, at least where I live now, and in all the places I have lived before! We connect with family, friends and neighbors in block parties, celebrations. A few examples:
*We have a neighborhood pool and everyone gets together and talks and connects while their kids swim.
*We have a neighborhood Facebook page where all neighbors share news and concerns and even ask to borrow everything from a "cup of sugar" to an extension ladder. They alert us all to illnesses or misfortune of other neighbors and everyone either offers emotional support or physical support for each other.
Our incomes don't matter. Our religions don't matter. Our political leanings don't matter. We meet and play as neighbors and appreciate each other. If you don't live in a place that does such things, then perhaps you can/should initiate them yourself. We did. And it's wonderful.
I think that's a damn good description of what's going on here. Now if only more could see it...
Attachment is the hardest thing to let go of . . . LOL
Very true :)
How do you define "winning"? Must there be "winners" and "losers"? Have you never heard of the "win-win" paradigm? Individuals competing in a "law of the jungle" mentality by slavishly obeying animalistic impulses has culminated in a high-tech world capable of nuclear armageddon. Is that something desirable under Darwinistic principles? The plain truth is, mankind has reached a point where cooperation of all is a necessity for survival. The day of the individual selfishly concerned for him/her self MUST end. We are reaching a point in time where that view of approaching life will possibly/likely result in such destruction that humanity and animals may not be able to recover from it. There MUST be a paradigm shift away from thinking about individual selfishness and a focus on humanity as a whole. Any other option will result in collective suicide.
Hi Undie, How have you been? So glad that you are addressing competition in your posts. I remember during the election debates that Romney made a comment about how he's a strong competitor ( insinuating that Obama was not) and that competition is exactly what is needed to improve the economy and make America the most successful country in the world. The majority of people- especially in America- have been trained to compete for everything and when losing anything becomes a threat, they become violent, aggressive, deceitful bullies. We have bullies everywhere now- in the workplace, schools, in families, neighborhoods and of course, shopping malls as we saw on black Friday.
Humans are social animals but we were meant to be social in a supportive way that supported success of our species. We were not meant to compete against one another. If that were true, then humanity would become extinct. Once the one percent have destroyed the 99, they will then begin to devour each other at the top until 'one' , the winner is left and then what? This behavior is counter-productive to species success. Why can't more people realize this?
I have noticed that more and more Americans are providing support to those in need in all sorts of creative ways. OWS has been a very proactive resource. However, I've also noticed that there are some folks who becoming even more aggressive and agitated as if people reaching out to one another is threatening their survival. It's as if some people fear human interaction and feeling.
Hi there Gillian. Good to hear from you and hope you are well.
Why can't more people realize the absurdity of anti-social behaviors? That is a question that totally eludes me, because it ought to be so clear and self-evident to every person on this planet. Yet look at the horrors we see going on and that have gone on for time immemorial. I am coming to the conclusion that there are two forces at work on this planet...the Love force and the Hate force. I don't know why those forces exist. Eastern thought says you have to have opposing forces in the world...Yin and Yang. I don't know. But it is beyond my comprehension as to why there are so many people that seem to support the Hate force, the Power force, the Destruction force. It doesn't make any sense why people support tearing down instead of building up. None to me at all. You'll have to ask them why their minds work like that. Mine doesn't.
I believe that you are right and as a spiritual person, I thought I understood the reason why evil exists. However, in the past year, I have grappled with this understanding on a different level and come to conclusion that there isn't going to be a rainbow at the end of this tunnel. As sad and cynical as this sounds, I really believe that this is hell and that we are truly in our final days. Beowulf was a force of good against evil and he died trying to save the world- killed by the evil dragon in the end even though he did manage to kill the dragon before his own death. This I fear is our current reality. We , the good peace-makers may inherit eternity somewhere more pleasant but probably not going to be here. Even so, we must continue to live a compassionate and righteous life. This is the definition of good character. But, we must also defend what is right and by not doing so in the past, the good folks are now reaping their own harvest. If enough of us could unite all at once, we could change the world. But, unfortunately, there are too many small fringe groups that don't make enough impact. I was thinking the other day how the news rarely even reports of Sandy anymore. The holidays are more important to people and wouldn't you feel guilty buying a new Barbie when others are starving, cold and sick?
FYI, in addition to all the other SH## I've been dealing with, I have been dealing with a horribly abusive and bullying neighbor and a lesser bully neighbor on the other side. Talk about being surrounded by evil. I've been really suffering a major spiritual catharsis. I don't get it Undie. It makes no sense. For the first time in my life, I went out and purchased a .38. I cried all the way home from the shooting range. I'm not a violent person, I'm a loving and respectful person but I've been forced to protect my dogs and myself with a gun that I carry on my body at all times. Yes, the police have been involved but even they told me that the man is a psychopath and he's dangerous. THEY advised me to carry a gun and set up a surveillance system ( which I did). Would you mind sharing your thoughts on this with me? I'm really feeling like I've been manipulated into becoming 'one of them'.
Well, the first question I have to ask is, are you an experienced gun handler? Do you really feel comfortable with the weapon in your hands as to being able to handle it with confidence if a situation did arise? That is critical, because a great deal of tragic gun accidents happen due to inexperience. I don't know how many rounds you have fired with it, but I would recommend at least 200 at a firing range initially, then maybe 25 to 50 rounds every 2 or 3 months just to keep your mechanics up. Also make sure no one else can get to the weapon when it is not on your person. I'm sure they went over all of this in your CC class, but I'm just asking to verify that all the basics of gun safety/ownership have been covered.
Next, you need to realize that pulling a weapon on someone is a very serious matter, only to be taken when you are certain that your life is in true danger. In Florida, if you pull a gun on someone, even if it is not loaded or is even a toy, it is an automatic 3-year sentence if you are found guily of improper use of a firearm. So it is a really, really serious thing.
As for feeling like you are being manipulated into becoming one of them, I can't really advise on that one. Everyone has to make up their own mind as to what stance they will take on something like that. Some people are complete pacifists, would not own a firearm, and would choose death in a situation like that rather than exchange potential "death-for-life" by defending themselves with a gun. Other people are hawks and are all "gung-ho" 2nd Amendment maniacs, etc. Of course, there is an entire range of possibilities between those two extremes. I really can't advise you on this or offer my opinion. You have to decide what you are going to do, and it sounds like you already have to some degree.
I hear you and this is why I hate owning a gun. If it were just me here at the house, I would not be quite as defensive but I fear this man will harm my dogs and the little girl that lives with him. You would just cringe if you could view the videos I have of him making the little girl bow to him. The man was convicted of attempting to murder his wife ( he crushed her skull and beat her horribly) but was allowed to plea bargain down to serving only 9 months. I only found this out after my encounters with him and notifying the police. I completely freaked and was terrified. I knew he was nuts but now it's confirmed.
I practice shooting every week. There are a few of my customers who do this now for the same reason ( neighborhood bully sociopath) and it's truly a sorry shame that we've been reduced to living this way. Anyway, they have been going with me to the range. I live in an old 'hood whereas my customers live in upscale gated communities....trash is everywhere now it seems. I'm not a gun toting hot head. I don't even like the NRA but I wouldn't hesitate to use this gun against my neighbor. He's abusing the little girl living there too and I had to let that go of that worry even though I feel absolutely horrible that I cannot help her. The police would love nothing more than to hang him. One of the cops said, ' This is what I don't like about our justice system..."
I was advised that when I leave my house to carry one of those spy pens ( which I do) on my shirt and always leave the surveillance running ( which I do) but this man truly has no sense of boundaries when it comes to the law. He even told me that he can do whatever he wants after all, that's what lawyers are for, right? He's so immature and psychologically impaired. Anyway, it's all so depressing to me and I wish I could move but I can't even pay my rent as it is. I keep wondering if evil is just pushing back so hard right now in it's last attempt and that maybe the Mayans were right, that the world would change this month and we would never be the same again ( that things will be better?). I'm grasping for any hope that I can.
haha... well, good luck with that.
I will take Jefferson, Adams, Paine, over some Ruskie.
Were they selfish, or did they work for the betterment of all Americans? What was their focus?
Have I advocated Communism, simply because I have asserted that selfishness is ultimately destructive?
Their focus was freedom, free enterprise AND individual effort. lets use a simple but forthright example. Couple A raises 3 kids. the kids go on to be a petroleum engineer, a medical researcher, and a aeronautical engineer. Couple B have 5 kids, no one really knows who all the fathers of the children may be, there is no parental supwrvision and all the kids are welfare deadbeats.
What does A owe B or vice versa?
It depends on where Couple A live and where Couple B lives. Where do they live?
Society owes Child A and Child B the same educational opportunity. But there is a huge disparity of educational opportunity. As wealth disparity has risen, so too has education disparity.
So it depends increasingly, and to a large extent, on where Child A and Child B live. Because schools are funded by property taxes. And most communities are highly segregrated by income. This gives a permanent educational advantage to those in the higher income brackets and zip codes.
Perhaps Child B lives in a lower socio-economic zip code. Maybe a school district that was not funded and supported as well as Kids A school district. Perhaps Child B lacked proper healthcare and nutritional security as well, which are crucial for educational success. Maybe even something so simple as an alarm clock to be woken up by to get to school on time.
If you want to avoid the children of Couple B from becoming the next generation of 'welfare deadbeats', these children need all the support they can get from society. And if you think there is anywhere near a level of equal educational opportunity, you are either absurdly naive or totally ignorant.
Unless the children of Couple A and Couple B are living in the same school district going to the same school, you cannot even begin to compare these situations and their outcomes. It's your hypothetical. But it's likely that these children are worlds apart in terms of educational opportunity. And that is why the children from Couple B ended up as 'welfare deadbeats' as you so kindly refer to them.
Ignore the inequalities of education that Children B face, at society's own peril.
This is a brilliant comment:) I wonder if I can ask you to peruse if not comment on, this thread - http://occupywallst.org/forum/charter-school-studies-that-have-been-under-report/ ?
Also fyi - http://www.nationofchange.org/turning-college-students-commodity-1344266531 from - http://www.nationofchange.org/education .
Thanks again 'teacher' and I would never have seen your excellent comment if we happened not to be on here at the same time again! Even if I can't quite work out who you are replying to, your very insightful comment stands on its own merits. You rock :) Never Give Up! Keep Occupying The Issues! Solidarity.
Read this quote: Many Vietnamese labor in menial jobs so that their children can attend University. SO MINIMUM WAGE DOES NOT PRECLUDE COLLEGE!!
So everything Ihave said s a proven fact and all you have is socialist opinion.
read this. http://www.vietamericanvets.com/Page-Diaspora-BestOutcomeofVNWar.htm
I haveva control group in my prof of inner city laziness, what do you have?
Sorry, that wont fly. Its a fact that kids in a one room schoolhouse in 1870 Kansas could pass tests thst todays kids cant. You are forgetting that Italian, Polish, German, jewish kids from 100 years ago, who did not speak English, were mired in poverty, climbed the ladder of success and had it far more difficult than todays kids, FAR MORE! The District of Columbia spends $23000 per student for virtually no improvement in academic skills. $23000!!!!!!!!!!!! So it isnt money, and it never was money. EVERY school district in America, in inflation adjusted dollars has far more money than they did 40 years ago. It deadbeat laziness and if you can prove otherwise, do so, with links.
My you really are a simple "black and white" reductionist aren't you. The world is massively complex, and there are extremely complex social and economic reasons why A and B exist. You stand in righteous judgement of B, with no idea of what it is like to be in that family. If you were from B and not A, you would be singing a different tune. And I assert that the problems I have been refering to require all of the A people of the world to help the B people wherever possible, under the principle of the greatest good for the greatest number (and not the smallest number). Ideally, the (R)ich need to move toward the middle and the poor need to move toward the middle. This country was at its height when the middle-class was at its peak. But just look at the mess it's in now because the middle-class has been decimated.
A's kid should not go into petroleum and perpetuate the evils of carbon spew. He/she should learn to engineer clean, renewable energies, and here is why.
Great points
I suppose TheRazor is acting as a predictable Political point of view here ...
1) You may have hurt the debate with the indroduction of a separate idea ... the carbon issue.
2) Good point about the Black and White Thinking. I have posted about Cognitive Errors before. Nothing today in politics is Black or White. The world is very connected and very complex... and polticians are acting for some interest of course.
3) Those that are already rich will not care if consumers stop spending or don't have money to spend
4) Those that are busiensses should fear they are too young to retire while consumers have less spending power ... but they are in it for the short term compensation anyway ... I don't see business executives cutting slack to consumers unless consumers have an advocate group. Like insurrance groups... or maybe an AMWAY group or DISCOUNT CLUB ... without spending power as leverage ... not sure how to cut the legs out from under executives.
Good comments, thx.
Lets post about Discount clubs ... or coops ... or maybe we should advocate a business club for OWS in local communities.
I suppose I would inviest in that. Maybe I shoudl invst in local coops right now. Agriculture doesn't seem primary to me though. I'm working on research to leave the US. But investing locally... in ag, or crafts seems undeveloped. Walmart is the competition, followed by Target, Kmart, and many others...In Europe a CO-OP would be important, I think. They have cheese, produce, meat markets outdoors...
Sorry I should say I don't read many posts these day .... I'm out of the loop
If you have followed my comments/posts for any time at all you'll know that I am all about cooperatives. I would like to see all corporations replaced with worker-owned co-ops. That is the only way I can see for democracy to enter the workplace. Corporations are feudal dictatorships. Co-ops are democracies where the workers themselves determine their own fate and are not subject to the whim of corporate owners. The co-op can still go under, this is true, but at least the workers have input to decide what actions will be taken. With the corporation they have none.
Thank you. I now know I have to take the time to read posts and get educated a bit from you. I am not a great reader. I am in-between a good poster, some what of a researcher, something of an experience man, but have lots to be desired in this case.
I am falling behind in the reading or even watching videos. My email inbox is total hell, man. lol I'm drowning. Kind of a constant problem. I have to face myself.
Hi there - If you haven't seen the award winning documentaries "Inside Job", "The Corporation" and "Why We Fight" I encourage you check them out. If I knew how to boldface this and star and asterisk it I would. It's hard to explain why but you'll be glad you checked them out. They're enjoyable to watch, clear and concise and solidly researched. I think they tell in precise terms what's really going on here. Add "Capitalism a Love Story" and the short film to that mix too. Make it a quadruple feature next weekend and you'll blow your mind in a good way :)
Yes, I have all 4 of those films. I'm sort of a movie collector I guess. Now sort of wonder where the corpoation film got to. I get more out of these movies when I watch them over again. Inside job was good with naming names.... 2nd disk has interviews, but you have to play them one at a time.
Cool. Glad you've seen. Great stuff. It's great to see such thoroughly researched high quality documentaries. They really nail it. "Manufacturing Consent" is also excellent.
Below is a post I put up recently that didn't generate any comments on my views of cooperatives.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/if-corporate-capitalism-is-a-virus-then-cooperativ/
Where is Bs responsibilty to help themselves?
Do you honestly believe that it is impossible that B might remain stuck in an unfortunate situation despite enormous effort on B's part to get out of it? The system that exists today is making it increasingly difficult for many to get ahead despite courageous and strenuous efforts. Hard work isn't always a guarentee of success.
But, of course, people deny that because to acknowledge it means that their whole belief system would come crashing down. And they have to feel good about themselves by rationalizing that they have succeeded where others have failed due to their own hard work, and not the fact that there could have been other/additional factors at play to account for it.
I do believe there are some that need some help, but not nearly as many as just simply are lazy.
Lets use a concrete, statistically verifiable example: more than 50% of women who get abortions have multiple abortions. I am good with society helping for the first abortion. Screw the whore who asks for me to pay for the second, she needs to be responsible.
Ok I'm glad to see that you are opening up a little, but regarding "the lazy", can you provide some truthful objective data to support that, or is it just some biased/prejudiced hunch on your part?
Regarding abortions, I am not in a position to comment on that since I am male, and will not pretend to understand what would lead any given woman to make that obviously serious decision.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_American
Here is concrete, incontrovertible proof that motivated, determined people, coming from a background of war, with an appearance markedly different than blonde or blue eyed, with a mother language markedly different than English, can become affluent and self sufficient in less than 40 years, using he gifts of freedom that America has. Read bout Vietnamese American economic success and tell it isnt about hard work. And prove it with links, not your socialist opinion. And tell me why I should pay for children born out of wedlock, particularly in the black and Latino communities, when a condom costs 25c?
B can move to A by hard work and education. I am happy to teach people to fish, but I wont give them my fish.
You are hilarious about the evils of carbon. Get off the internet if you hate carbon. Dont get in a bus. Dont take a cab. Dont heat your house. If you do one ofthose, you are the worst sort of hypocrit.
The worst sort of hypocrit? Any person today who lives with a conscience and awareness of their behavior and it's consequences, will strive to make the best choices in any given situation. There are some things we simply cannot avoid but for too many, life is spent living like water- always choosing the path of least resistance without any concern for the consequences. When we view ourselves as separate from the rest of humanity or the global ecology, we are choosing to ignore the consequences of our actions which include how we spend our money, what we purchase, where we shop, our consumption of fuel and other natural resources, etc.. We are choosing to be ignorant and ignorance and denial are nothing less than selfish since they only serve the individual.
Most people who are successful are so because of being in the right place, the right family or simply by luck. Hard work rarely ever pays off anymore and in actuality, it only ever did WHEN the opportunities were there for those who had a skill or trade to offer. If you take the time to study American history in depth, you will discover that America was built on the backs of immigrants and slaves and by bullying natives to leave their homes. Americans would have nothing if it were not for greedy opportunists who were able to oppress others. I am a member of one of the most successful families in the south, including a famous democrat governor. I was told that they were hard-working men who came from nothing and managed to build their empire in this great land and I actually believed that until a few years ago. My family would have had nothing had they not been able to take land from the Cherokee ( Trail of Tears) and buy thousands of slaves for their plantations. They were some of the most heinous and evil wealthy slave owners of this country's history. Much of the land still exists in our family. Thousands of acres bought and sold to family members, given to children at weddings and some sold for cash to invest in other businesses that still practice slavery today by a different name. I'm not proud of those hard working men because they took the path of least resistance by capitalizing on the weakness of others. I myself am a poor penniless mongrel. I struggle to survive every day. Some might think that I'm just a loser and stupid because I refused to accept any money from my family. But, I would rather be who I am today and go to my grave knowing that my success never came from family money that originated from harming others. I don't accept welfare even though I could probably benefit from some but I don't seem to qualify for any since I'm unemployed. Lately, I've been truly blessed by a few people who were more than willing to barter with me for services in order to keep a roof over my head. Maybe I am stupid. I admit that there are times when I wish I had some of that money but it's mostly so I could help others.
Yes, land was taken by force from Native Americans. I cant change that. And many Native Americans were not the noble red man of lore. And slavery was an evil that 1000s of Americans eradicated with their lives. But hard work andrugged individualism is ABSOLUTELY the American story. I hike the Rocky Mountains, i see gold mines at 13000 ft dug out by some hardy soul trying for his fortune.
Like I said, there was once an opportunity in this country to make something of yourself, to be a successful farmer, tailor, carpenter, fisherman, etc... but those days are long gone and the only opportunities out there are those that involve working for greedy shysters that pride themselves as opportunists capitalizing on those in need or perhaps you can catch the next boat to China. Where's the gold today? And besides, even those who flooded the gold rush were just those seeking the easy way to wealth. Read about all the homicides that occurred during the gold rush as a result of greed. There was nothing romantic about the gold rush and many families never saw their fathers and husbands ever again.
And FYI, it is not for us to decide who is more noble or not. Indians were not wrong for defending themselves against tyranny and oppression. We destroyed not only THEIR land but once we owned it, we continued to destroy it for ourselves. Americans are the most ungrateful people in the world who value nothing, consider everything expendable- including family and friends and want a quick fix for everything that ails them. We are a country of the nouveau cheap riche that have absolutely not an ounce of class.
Thank you for your obviously heartfelt and very good comments here on this thread. I concur with much of what you say. America will go even further to the dogs unless Plutocracy is removed & some sort of semblance of Democracy is restored. Wealth Worship and Mindless Materialism will be the downfall of this country unless the 99% come together and wise up. Never Give Up! http://www.nationofchange.org/
Thank you. Does it never end? Now even Dr. Oz has joined the mindless media doctors? ( I read your page link). I can't take much more of this nonsense. I can't even sleep at night because I'm so full of concern.
Bless you G. I'm no spring chicken and need to go attend to my spring chickens now, lol but your comment below to which I'm replying here, moved me deeply. You are a veteran of the 99% Struggle and have been struggling a long time. You are completely allowed to recuperate but because you care so much, you feel guilty about it. No need. Rest, share your experience and insights but persevere sister. You are NOT alone! There are millions and millions of us across this country and the world and please take some time to reflect on beautifulworld's comments on that thread I linked to. Many people are noticing. I used to just read here and there must be many, many thousands here like that. Have a great holiday and ... We'll Never Give Up! Go Occupy!
Have faith and take strength from your fellow good citizens. May I sincerely recommend this post and thread - http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-the-wealthy-really-fear-the-truth/ - with particular emphasis on beautifulworld's numerous comments there as you will feel uplifted and encouraged, I promise you.
My page link was really for the whole 'Nation Of Change' website and not really a particular pointer to Dr. Oz - though, I went back there and read it and I get what you mean, so I'm sorry to add to your despair.
Try to hook up with any local right thinking, compassionate, progressive group and read here and elsewhere and try to keep sharing your thoughts. Your comments on this thread were very moving. You have much wisdom and fire in your belly and I wish you and yours my very best wishes for the forthcoming Christmas and New Year holidays. Never Give Up! Occupy The Issues! Solidarity :)
As I read your post, I smile because I see so much of myself at one time in you and am reminded of how truly in need I am of hope. I'm just tired..REALLY tired. Back in 2005 I was working night and day to bring about awareness of what was about to come and it seemed like no one cared. Maybe they were all drugged into apathy. I didn't have a forum like this one and I had to spend every free minute I had on the pavement, in stores, etc... and I did it and I had a lot of good support from other activists. But, I think that after Obama got elected the first term and ended in so much disappointment, something died in me and hopelessness replaced hope and I lost my faith in my country, lost my faith in humanity. Although I haven't rebounded , I must tell you that your post means the world to me and I realized that it's ok for me to have a down time when there are folks like you sharing and carrying the load for awhile. Every single one of you is a blessing and I thank you. In all this darkness, the one glimmer of light has been realizing how aware and proactive so many young folks are today. Thank goodness someone is noticing!!! You have a wonderful holiday too. G.
I like America, you dont. You are free to leave.
We survived because we came together as a community.
To survive the 1st winters (pilgrims)
To defeat the British, (UNITED States)
To defeat the traitorous Confederates.
To create fair/safe labor practices.
And many many examples.
So besides getting free land (stolen from indians) free labor (stolen from African Americans), and all the community actions listed (& not listed) above, yeah sure it was rugged individualism. LOL
Don't believe the hype boss, Those John Wayne hollywood movies are not real depictions.
No one succeeds alone in a vacuum. The community is more valuable and stronger than an individual.
Ain't that obvious to you.?
Ain'tcha' never heard the millennial old truism "there is strength in numbers"? or "We will hang separately if we don't hang together"? "United we stand, divided we fall"?
BTW I love John Wayne, but he was a wanna be. He never went to war, but could have. He played it safe, but became a hero to the common man ...who saw him as a man of action.
I have many problems from watching MSM Movies. I am a movie addict. I love action movies and all the violence. I should proably change ... It is probably time for me to stop glamerizing Violence.
But I want to keep my DVDs... Maybe there is a compromise to keep movies but limit time and limit alcohol.
I'm with you. Love action films, and the duke. I have successfully separated that love from reality.
It is ok. YOU are ok. As long as we do not get hypnotized and start believing the hype.
It's just a movie. LOL.
Thanks. I'd like to say we are together in the making of a new nation.
And indeed we are.
"Yipee ki yay Motherf%$ka'" JM
born in 1907 . told old for active duty.
May 26, 1907 – June 11, 1979... Let see how many wars were there...
1) WWI (1914 - 1918)
2) WWII ( 1939 - 1945)
3) Korean War ( 1950 – 27 July 1953)
4) Vietnam War (1963 - 1975)
WWI and WWII were consider very patriaotic wars by the way... every guy volunteered almost.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Wars#1950.E2.80.931959
Throughout most of his life, Wayne was a vocally prominent conservative Republican according to wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne#Politics "....rallying support for the Vietnam War..."
o.k .you listed wars, to young for WW I , too old for combat duty for WWII and the others that followed.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-of-the-worlds-greatest-authors-gets-to-the-hea/#comment-887155
And of course people are stuck with oil/carbon right now. But is that any reason to continue to advocate/perpetuate it by encouraging people to go into the oil industry? Where is the logic in that? Did you read that article in my last comment?
Yes, as long as YOU USE OIL, you need to support those who help find it or you are a loser hypocrit.
How so? Just because I use oil does not mean I support the use of it, since it is destroying the planet, especially if alternative clean energies can and should be developed/encouraged. If I am addicted to cigarettes, is it hypocritical of me to advocate people not contribute to the tobacco industry if I know I am likely to die from lung cancer?
People can try to change the system while working within it. People who claim that those who want less pollution need to walk everywhere.
Yes, Al Gore's lifestyle is a bit hypocritical. Along with many others in the spotlight. And his "carbon credits" scheme is total BS, and really just shifts things around.
But those of us that are average people can say that its bullshit that 60 years later everything else around us has advanced beyond man's wildest dreams, yet our cars are still combustion and getting 25-35 mpg.
Attacking Al Gore personally is childish. Especially since he has done more than anyone to educate people, & pressure govt & business.
Divest from fossil fuel corps, xfer fossil fuel subs to greentech now!
Someone should hang Gore by his nutsack at the North Pole so he can monitor the "no Global warming" more closely
You resort to these immature personal attacks on the strongest soldier speaking out on this important issue because you can't argue the facts!
You're position is impotent and dishonest.
Ever since "climate gate" broke open (and thank God it did) Poor ole Gore stopped construction on mansion #5
Non sense. "Climate gate" was proven to be a phony, meaningless distraction.
The great Al Gores personal actions are irrelevant and you pre occupation with them betrays the weakness of you position.
Your comments are empty, inaccurate, and unimportant.
Interesting how the "strongest soldier" (which is an insult to real soldiers) is one of the people that crafted the legislation to offshore all our jobs to 3rd world nations with no environmental regs.
It ain't an insult to real soldiers in the military because it is unrelated. That's just your weak attempt at distraction from the real issues surrounding the devastation we have caused our planet/people with our continued burning of fossil fuels.
No one has done more than the great Al Gore. Personally attacking him is just another weak distraction and an attempt to avoid the important issues/steps we must take.
xfer all fossil fuel subs to greentech! Divest from all fossil fuel corps.
No it wasn't. You don't know the first thing about Jefferson and Paine.
Sure
You wont answer a direct question except wuth a nebulous platitude. I thouhgt you might be serious.
Thanks for posting this. The Brothers Karamazov is, I think, the greatest novel ever written.
That book in some ways kind of says it all :)
Yes it does.
Good food for thought - the growth of individualism = the death of society = a regression in time to a place where individuals ALL struggled for the day to day survival.
I hope in compliment - to add some more food for thought - On Being:
Why Cheaters And Liars Think They're Honest, Wonderful People
Cool video. Very revealing.
Thx - found it in my e-mail - nothing earth shattering - just a commonsense look at actions - reasoning and results.
Individuals working together of their own good while helping the group is the way to go. Individual and group cannot be on opposite ends