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Forum Post: ✭ On why this forum is an utter failure and how it could instead become indispensible ✭

Posted 5 years ago on Aug. 26, 2012, 8:43 a.m. EST by electron (-492)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

We all agree, this forum is an utter failure. You might scream and say "No!", but deep down you know it's true. "Girl you know it's true... wohoo..." Some will say trolls destroyed it, some will say democrat plants destroyed it, some will say a small clique of aggressive posters destroyed it, etc... They are all wrong.

This forum has failed because it is detached from OWS reality. There is no bridge between the posters here and the protesters on the ground. When a group is fractured, it is not strong. "Together we stand, divided we fall. Together we can stand tall."

Remember mission impossible #1? Remember when they invade the highly fortified CIA headquarters in Langley? Remember the big black guy running the computer system from the van, Luther? That's you. That's right, you're the brains of Occupy. You're job is to hold everything together and to relay information to the people on the ground. Well, you are not doing your job, and it's up to you to change that.

Almost every Occupy protest has a website, but this is the one that is common to all. It's the hub. You guys need to take control and start helping Occupy. You have many talents and you have something the ground protesters don't have, time. Some of you are sick, some of you are far from Occupy protests, some of you are retired, etc... and that is why you aren't protesting. However, you have time, a computer, and you can write. You must use this.

Re-posting news articles here and discussing them doesn't go very far. You guys are turning in circles always talking about the same stuff, but doing nothing about it. On a positive note, you did get ride of conspiracy theorists so great job there.

Find out what various Occupy factions need. Email jart, zoe, etc... Ask them how you can help by writing articles or pamphlets or posters, perhaps you can keep track of various activities the democrats or the republicans are doing so you can tell people where to protest next, etc... Once you start doing that you'll contribute directly to Occupy and you'll be able to come on this forum and discuss strategies and what you have been doing. You'll be bridging he gap between the protesters and yourselves. You'll become active. It's a fallacy to think you can't help Occupy directly just because you're stuck in your home or you're too far from a protest. You have a computer and the Internet. Use it to help Occupy directly instead of repeating the same discussions on this forum.

If you haven't discussed issues with a protester on the ground lately, that means you are not doing your job. In mission impossible, Luther was constantly checking up on his team. How are they doing, what are they up to, what kind of help can he provide them.

You are the brain of Occupy operating from this forum, the hub. Start acting like the brain.

Your friendly neighborhood Thrasymaque, bringer of truth.

P.S. The forum users here, especially DKAtoday who is now a moderator, will be quick to ban this message even though it speaks the truth. They are not interested in ideas, but are, instead, only interested in making friends. They do not really care about OWS.

P.S.S. You can evict a user, but you can't evict an idea. What I say is truth and everyone here knows it even if DKAtoday, master democrat who has never occupied a building except for his bathroom, says otherwise.



Read the Rules


[-] -2 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

Read: http://occupywallst.org/forum/on-why-this-forum-is-an-utter-failure-and-how-it-c/#comment-815904

The user who posted porn was a user who imitated me. His that was thrasymoque. He got banned at the time, not I.

The iconography of OWS was horrible at the beginning. Full of violence. If I talked about it, it was in the hopes that it would be improved. I'm happy to say it's much less violent now.

I defaced only the threads of Truthards which were against the forum rules.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 5 years ago

So why not use your mad skills to help us rid this forum of the Dem shills? As you know, I agree completely with your assessment of this site. I also have to give you due credit in getting the admins to stop embracing violent imagery in their posters. You were correct, and apparently they agreed.

[-] -3 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

I don't have moderation power here. Although I can make bots, to moderate the site you would need admin access and I'm not about to hack my way in their database. That's illegal.

Either the admins take care of it, or people ask them to in a GA. My feeling is that the admins like jart and zoe simply don't care about this site. They have forum rules, but they don't care to enforce them. For example, political stuff is against the rules.


[-] -1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 5 years ago

people have been trained to reject being involved in politics


[-] -2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 5 years ago

that's the word

"never discuss religion and politics"


[-] -2 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

You fail to understand that Occupy is not a solution machine, it's a protest engine. It's main goal is to offer resistance and pressure, not solutions. As such, it functions much better under the umbrella of anarchy than some kind of political party.

This forum is disconnected from the reality of OWS. This is why people here talk about theoretical solutions, but never implement anything. You believe Occupy is a think tank for solutions. It is not. It's a protest. This site was originally created in order to help coordinate efforts of the protesters on the ground, but it was never used in that way. There are no protesters here.


[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 5 years ago

Yeah, I know the forum rules, I've been bitching about the shills for months now, to no avail. But, I put to you this question: if jart, et al aren't interested in this site, why is it still up?

[-] 1 points by gsw (3143) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 5 years ago

"Cause to have free speech you may bend rules, as I'm sure you would agree." G.

See Soc-rit-ese

Big tent theory

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 5 years ago

Hard to argue with that guy. But then, we should probably discuss priorities in regards to an internet forum with (what used to be) a specific purpose. 'Free speech' is not an inalienable right.

[-] 2 points by gsw (3143) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 5 years ago

well beyond more use of stinkles --for those not following our general norms,

who continually repeat MSM talking points (being negative),

--the unabashed partisan with many points, , who just repeats "must make a choice D or R",

maybe together show them the need to bring discussion back, to ows themes, or what clarified something for you. just get more people to lead them back.

Now if they don't get the hint. get one of their allies to send private message to tone it down, or give friendly reminder.

maybe someone with a gentle tone can approach with a message, maybe that is their role here

and if that fails, banishment., if it is shown over numerous threads and days same old line, bye bye

these are just some ideas. sure there is more. also, listen better to them. if none of these work inform ZD to give em positive messaging talking points.

[-] -1 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

That's a good question, and it's good because it's hard to answer. One of the reasons I came back to have a quick peek is that I'm interested in knowing if that question will be answered appropriately. Indeed, why are most of the very active posters democrat shills, and why are they left free to derail this site into a political discussion. I can only make guesses at this point.

First, let me say I don't know for sure if jart, zoe, etc... don't care about this site. I guess they don't because they seldom post here. When someone creates a website for a community they are part of, then never use that site it is strange. The other thing is that they don't enforce the forum rules, which, I imagine, if they really cared about this site they would. Why spend the time creating rules if they will not be enforced?

Jart wrote a few months back that the intentions of this site had not been met. She intended it to be a meeting ground for the protesters so that they could organize events in the street. I think those people are simply using another site. For example, the people in NYC most likely use the forums on the NYCGA site.

Odin wrote a few months ago that he thought the reason was that the anarchists wanted to keep the people inclined to politics out of their hair. This could be true. Perhaps if this site was shut down, the very active posters who are essentially addicted to this site and are pro-Obama supporters would start flocking to forums used by the anarchists and take over the conversations on those sites.

Another reason might be that this is jart and zoe's baby. They created the site over many months. Although jart doesn't code much for the site anymore, if you look at the github account you'll see that she still does add features here once in awhile. She hasn't given up on the programming side of the site, although she has given up on the idea of posting here and of using this site to help the protesters on the ground organize their activities. This might sound strange, but I think it's quite normal. When an artist, a programmer, an architect, a philosopher, etc... spends time thinking of an idea and implementing it, he becomes attached to that idea, or product. Even if he realizes the product has failed to meet its intentions, he will usually be the last person to acknowledge this and move on with something else. The attachment created by the time invested creates an illusion. The person might feel there is still hope somehow when there is none. This is the difference between a genius, and someone who's just good at what they do. The genius will not be the last person to let go, he'll be the first. He'll realize before everyone that what he created does not work as intended and he'll be the first to move on. When other people start realizing his idea isn't working, they'll find he's already hard at work cooking up something different.

A lot of people here talk about an "open" forum as if this was a good thing. They put freedom of speech on a high pedestal and say that this is a forum for everyone to speak their minds on everything. What they don't realize is that this forum has rules, and that some people here do get banned from time to time so it really isn't open anyhow. And, is open good? There's a difference between censoring freedom of speech and keeping a website on topic. If a teacher teaches a biology class and starts talking about music instead, the students will report him to the dean. The teacher won't be able to invoke freedom of speech, he's off topic. This is what happened to this site. People seem to believe it's supposed to be some sort of think tank for all the problems in the world. It's not. Occupy is not a solution engine, it's a protest and activist engine.

I stated a few weeks ago that I thought this site should be shut down, and I was aggressively attacked by those who believed this meant I was against Occupy. This couldn't be further from the truth. If I wrote that, it's because I think this site being off topic as it is is hurting Occupy more than it's helping it. It gives Occupy a bad imagine to those who come here for the first time. And, those people exist. I am one of those people. I read about Occupy in the newspaper, and after searching the web for a forum, this is where I ended up.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 5 years ago

Thanks, T. Unfortunately I've come away with no answer, which is understandable. It's apparently as much a mystery to you as it is me. If this site had the traffic it first had, and stayed true to its purpose, I'd suspect it could be used to study group dynamics of modern wannabe revolutionaries, but given the content and low participation numbers, it seems pretty much useless for that. I'm sure some good data is being gleaned from this site by someone, though. The lack of moderation is what's puzzled me since the early days. If a forum were viewed as a petri dish, moderation could be viewed as contamination. But perhaps I'm giving the forum too much credit.

[-] 4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 5 years ago

If it's such a failure?

What do you think you are doing here?

Why are you bothering to post anything at all?

[-] -1 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

Because it has great potential. It's one of the main forums of OWS, already has a good Google rating, and it's a great piece of software. I like simple forums, like this one, or systems like Vanilla. It could be a very useful tool for Occupy if the users here communicated with the protesters on the ground. I'm posting in the hope that it can be changed in this way.

Are you afraid of wanting to change something for the better? Do you feel scared because your little clique that's controlling the forum might lose their control one day? Is that why you want to suppress new ideas, so that you can live in your comfortable conservative world.

Read my post above again. You'll see that it's spot on truth.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 5 years ago

It's been said they don't post here.

Although I've met a few who claim they do.

Do you feel it's our fault they don't post here?

As far as I know they would be welcome, and in truth in the early days, many were chased by the likes of a poster known as thrasy.

[-] -3 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

There are no protesters that were chased away by me. There's only one poster I chased away, then I took over his body: TIOUAISE.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 5 years ago

In this case, I have to ask you ...who's "me", in your statement?

[-] 0 points by freewriterguy (882) 5 years ago

doesnt it seem fishy that every one of beautifulworld's post has 3 twinkles and everyone of yours has minus 3? hmmm very fishy indeed. Im thinking that 8047 would be only about 2047 if it wasnt for all her other names she twinkles herself with.

[-] -2 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

Team Twinkle. People don't twinkle good comments, they twinkle their friends.

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (22863) 5 years ago

I have always thought you were Tiouaise from the beginning. True? You were both Tiouaise's?

How many people do you owe points to here that you attacked with your bots? Surely you owe shooz several hundred. How about girlfriday?

[+] -4 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

I never attacked shooz. I attacked girlfriday and TIOUAISE. I destroyed the TIOUAISE character, then I made new TIOUAISE characters by using the "capital i looks like l trick." With all permutations, this gave me three TIOUAISE characters to play with. I also chased Renneye always, that's why you don't have Illuminati threads anymore. No need to thank me.

At the end, everyone got their points back. But, points don't matter much right? This ain't no Donkey Kong!

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (22863) 5 years ago

So you were not the original TIOUAISE? I came to think that that whole epic battle between the two of you was a staged event. I would be curious to know the truth if TIOUAISE was a real or not.

I could swear you attacked more people with your bot than just TIOUAISE and girlfriday, but I could be wrong.

Renneye is just fine. You haven't chased her away.

[+] -5 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

No, it was a real battle. I was not the original TIOUAISE. He was real, but I have no idea who he or she is. No, I really didn't attack many people with my bots. I sent a few messages to RKG and zendog, but that was just for a day. I really didn't do much stuff at all, it's just that people here are so paranoid that they blow everything up. Sometimes, I wouldn't do anything at all and some people thought I messed their computers and stuff.

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (22863) 5 years ago

Hmm. Okay. You did a lot, I witnessed it, but okay, you weren't the original TIOUAISE. It was just a theory of mine. You were a very busy guy, though, so don't give me that business that you didn't do much stuff at all. Please.

[-] -3 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

My biggest talent is to do without doing. Many many times, a troll would do something and I would be blamed, or I would take the blame for it. In this way, I was able to create an unforgettable name on the forum.

I'm imagining you, a beautiful girl, singing to me - "Unforgettable, that's what you are..."

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (22863) 5 years ago

Quite funny, but nah, I have someone else I sing to.

What were some of your other monikers? I'd like to know for sure that you are Thrasymaque. You never answered my question about your wife's name. I only wanted that to confirm your identity. Come on. Indulge me so I know it is really you.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 5 years ago

Ah, . . . . the wife!

heh heh heh.

Note to forum: inside joke. Please ignore.

[-] 1 points by Madinusa (77) from Queens, NY 5 years ago

No...let's get to the bottom of this one too!

You, and bw....husband, and wife..wow! lol

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 5 years ago

Okay, you talked me into it. We will get to the bottom of this RIGHT NOW!

In a PM, of course. ;-)

[-] 1 points by Madinusa (77) from Queens, NY 5 years ago

A PM...not out in the open...they have a word for that...but i cannot afford to be banned again. lol

[-] -2 points by beautifulworld (22863) 5 years ago


[-] -2 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

Sorry, it doesn't matter who you believe I am and this is something I have stressed here many times before. Care about the comments, the postings, the message. Stop caring about who posted them.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 5 years ago

For the 'record' again, 'Trashy', you have a clearly functional but rather twisted brain and even those of us who don't like your devious ways - have some kind of soft spot for you. I've been busy with my life most of this weekend but our brief interactions (your 'sandysterling' & 'electron' threads and LeoYo's thread about the teacher and her 5 priapic pupils) - as well my catch up read here, speak volumes.

You are not a radical or "socialist" (as April seems to believe) ; you are actually quite conservative and reactionary. You may be a 'social liberal' but you're are a conservative who will defend capitalism quite readily. You seem to say little about Banks, Banksterism, The Nature and Issuance of Money & the Corporate Capture of Every Day Life - but how could you if modern "crapitalism is ok", right ?

Your mendacious & manipulative ; devious & duplicitous, behaviour - past & present {and probably future}, is your own undoing. 'OWS' is a pro 99% movement whereas you are a 'neo-feudalist' of sorts & also probably a natural born 'Ayn Rand' archetype, in my opinion.

You are hung on your own petard 'Trashy' and many here know your nature. 'Truth' is Treason in The Empire of Lies' and you matey, are a wannabe Emperor !!

nosce te ipsum ...

[-] -1 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

Your mendacious & manipulative ; devious & duplicitous, behaviour - past & present {and probably future}, is your own undoing.

I don't feel undone one bit.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 5 years ago

You're 'undoing' yourself with every petulant key stroke alas and your de facto and implicit acceptance of your own poor behaviour is duly noted as is your usual lack of any contrition or humility.

To make better use if this comment, I append for your reflection :

"Ayn Rand, it was said, was one of the main inspirations for his particular philosophy. Since Ryan is being represented not as an ordinary, run-of-the-mill politician, like Mitt Romney - but as a profound political and economic thinker, the inspiration deserves some scrutiny. There is something in the teachings of this preacher of extreme egoism that appeals to the primitive American myths of rugged individualism, gun-toting Wild West self-reliance".

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (22863) 5 years ago

I do care if it is someone who damages the forum as much as you do. You see, electron, you have some good things to say, but you're a bully and that's a problem. Didn't anyone ever tell you that you catch more flies with honey?

[-] -2 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

You win for having the largest amount of hubris, too. Too bad, when people read your comments they vote you down.

I'm not here for points. If I want a high-score, then I play Donkey Kong.

[-] -3 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

I catch a lot of flies here. My modus operandi is all the honey I need. My postings are some of the most read and commented here. If I posted something right now, you would not be able to resist reading it.

[-] 1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 5 years ago

Just because your comments are read and responded to, doesn't mean you have persuaded anyone.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (22863) 5 years ago

You win for having the largest amount of hubris, too. Too bad, when people read your comments they vote you down.


[-] -3 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

I already participate in that change. This posting is one example of working to change things. Working to bridge the gap with protesters. First, the idea must be presented. I would be more than happy to work like Luther in mission impossible #1 and help the protesters on the ground from this higher ground.

Doubt in your heart clouds your judgment.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 5 years ago

It's all because threshy, just won't go away.

He's never happy with the amount of damage he does.

This thread is full of assumptions and even a personal attack.

It should never have stood. I think I'll talk to someone about that.


[-] 3 points by Proteus (141) from Quebec, QC 5 years ago

I'm tired of this shit, maybe we should all leave this forum and let it shut down.

There are all kind of way to support the spirit of OWS, there are all kind of supporters, I hope you quickly get banned, your attitude is negative, non constructive, you're full of hate, you're frustrated, you believe you should control the way this "public" forum work but you'd only make crap with it, you'd probably even destroy the movement. You are trying to put all the problems of OWS on the back of this forum, like if it didn't exist the movement would have grown to destroy capitalism.

[-] -1 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

"you'd probably even destroy the movement with your insignificance and manipulations."

If one man can destroy a protest by posting on a forum, then the problem is not with that man, it's with the protest.

What I say in the above post is truth, and if you followed my advice it would help OWS a great deal. We need to bridge the gap between protesters and the posters on this board. Or else, writing here becomes a pointless activity devoid of all OWS reality.

[-] 2 points by Proteus (141) from Quebec, QC 5 years ago

Yeah, yeah, twisted words.

[-] -2 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

They seem twisted because your judgement is clouded. When you sober up, you'll realize I speak the truth.

[-] 1 points by Proteus (141) from Quebec, QC 5 years ago

Twisted words in the sense that I didn't say "a man posting" I said if you controlled the ways of this forum.

[-] -2 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

I cannot control what does not wish to be controlled. If I always get a lot of comments on my postings it's because people like to read them, and post in them. It's because they are interesting whether you like it or not. If I posted something new right now, you would not be able to resist reading it. There's nothing stopping you from reading the other postings. I don't post all over the place.

[-] 1 points by Proteus (141) from Quebec, QC 5 years ago

I read you because you answer to my post, people read you because you seek their attention.

[-] -2 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

Part of a writer's job is to seek attention so that he is read. The reader is always free to ignore. Nobody's forcing you to discuss anything with me, or to read anything I write. Yet, you will.

Honestly, do you really want to spend your time reading what the circle of 7 democrat plants write about Obama? It's really boring.

[-] 2 points by Proteus (141) from Quebec, QC 5 years ago

I already answered your question before you asked it, just scroll up a little, it begins by "you are read..."

Bye now, I would ask you to never again answer my posts but I know you won't do it, so I abandon, go ahead write what you want.

[-] -3 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

You are too sensitive. This is anarchy, not an episode of Little House on the Prairie.

[-] 1 points by Proteus (141) from Quebec, QC 5 years ago

What you don't want to concede is that this is a public forum, it is for everybody to exchange, people on the street, supporters, idealists, whatever. It does exactly what you ask of it; "bridge the gap between protesters and the posters on this board"

[-] 1 points by Proteus (141) from Quebec, QC 5 years ago

Play the game like everybody else and I'll respect you, you can be an anarchist, i'm not, do we have to fight? no, I can skip it, you can skip it too. The forum is biased politically? so be it, you can mention it without attacking, you have all the intelligence to deal with it, you don't have to force things, you can get your point across without entering in a war. You want enemies to destroy? Then this is not a place for you, that's all. Can you skip confrontation? Then stop the hypocrisy, stop the superchery, stop the cheating, there are many here who will better appreciate you as a single proud entity. I had a few long exchanges with you, and I know you are capable of profound thinking, I know you make sense, I know you can change your mind, and I know divergent opinions can be settled with you. That's all I'll say to you unless you take the next step.

[-] -3 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

I'm not fighting you, you're fighting me.

[-] 1 points by Proteus (141) from Quebec, QC 5 years ago

That's a baby answer, but yes I do, and i'll do as long as you are not on the same ground as me, but don't worry, I won't do it eternally to fuel your desire for attention, I'll ignore you instead.

[-] -2 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

This is normal. Everyone here wants to be on the same ground giving each other high-fives and gaining big scores. I don't come here to get approval, I come here to post ideas. If you can ignore them, do that. I don't think you'll be able to ignore my postings. You'll find them too interesting.

[-] 2 points by Proteus (141) from Quebec, QC 5 years ago

You are read because you pollute the place all over, you answer to everybody on anything insignificant, people have no choice to read you because you answer their posts, you think yourself intelligent but you are a big baby seeking attention, get lost!

But yes you are a stupid distraction to the political babbling.

[-] -2 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

I don't pollute the place all over. 98% of my comments today were in this posting, which is one I published. Read the other postings. I didn't comment there very much at all.

You want me to get lost, but you're reply to me in my posting. You simply have to leave and read what others have written. Am I to blame if you spend your time reading what I write, and responding to what I write?

[-] 1 points by gsw (3143) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 5 years ago

Just curious,

Not to argue, but to reach understanding, and

to more clearly see what is the best path forwards

what specifically may we do, to better bridge the gap between this forum and ows; which would provide the best support to ows,

What is your opinion on voting in the election?

and how is the best means to get information to an greatly apolitical percent?

[-] -2 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

The important thing about voting and Occupy is that you shouldn't talk about it here. It has little to do with activism, especially in an anti-government protest. Vote as you please, but don't talk about it. Not here.

The best way to bridge the gap between protesters and forum users is to first understand what protesters are doing and what they are all about. Most people here have no idea what OWS is about, that includes the most active posters with big high scores. Ideally, you would attend some protests to get a feel for Occupy, if that's impossible, then you would go on some other Occupy forums and try to find real protesters to talk to. Once you start understanding what Occupy is, then you can start figuring out a way you can help directly from your computer at home. I'm sure Occupy could use many writers an researchers.

[-] 3 points by jph (2652) 5 years ago




This is one forum, their are others. Some more focused as you have outlined.

I for one see little utility in street protests,. they do raise some awareness and blow off steam however not a whole lot of actual change seems to come from this activity. These events are so easily spun on the MSM into "the police where attacked by nasty dirty protesters today",. bla bla bla,.

I am more interested in modifications to our culture. In debate around issues that can lead to real change, in building new social structures that simply forgo the current badly broken ones. Why fight against when we can just move forward? The solutions are growing every day,. we only need to feed the good and starve the bad. Support what works for you and your community!

Search; eco-village, permaculture, slowmoney, relocalize, degrowth, etc.

[-] 1 points by jbgramps (159) 5 years ago

My casual observation is only about 100 to 200 posters regularly post. The same people over and over. It looks like the same few posters are always on, 24/7. Seems a lot of regular posters use this as a social outlet. I don’t know if that’s good or bad, probably most internet forums have the same issue.

You can be sure this sight is monitored by those who oppose OWS, and probably even law enforcement. I don’t see this forum as a good place for planning or organization. Also not very good as a think tank.

I see this forum as a place to exchange ideas and discuss things with like minded folks. Unless you set up some real hard ass mods the trolls will always be here. Besides troll are not always bad, some even talk sense.

So, unless the forum drastically changes on who it allows to post and takes a harder line on trolls and posts just too off the wall. Personally I like it the way it is. It probably is one the most visible face OWS for the masses.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 5 years ago

I will trust Occupy.com when they disclose in the About section that the two people that started and operate the website also have made money doing PR work for WallSt.

[-] 0 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

Occupy is not just about protesting, it's also about using activism to build better communities. If you don't like the protest, then go to the building events. Even better, start a group in your community to help the needy, minorities, etc... What you mention at the end is part of occupy, creating eco-villages, permaculture, etc... Start building a better community by doing grassroots work. That's Occupy.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (22863) 5 years ago

Very well said, jph. Begin working within a new economic system.

[-] -2 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

I'm not sure I understand. How can we work within a new economic system? Is that economic system already built so that we can work within it? If it's not built, then don't we have to built it before working within it. There's been a vast amount of ludicrous economic system theories posted here, like those without money, is that what you're talking about?

In any case, couldn't we use this forum to help build this new economic system you mention in the way that I've described in this posting?

[-] 1 points by dreamingforward (394) from Gothenburg, NE 5 years ago

I have an economic system for you (and occupy). It just needs a little help. It's a comprehensive system gifted from agape itself. I encourage you to check it out: pangaia.sourceforge.net.

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 5 years ago

Research the terms I posted,. slowmoney specifically. It is not necessarily about creating a new 'money system',. (although that is a great idea, as the current system has many built-in skimming mechanism that simply TAKE money out of the system and give it to the 1%). People are already just using their money to support the building on new social systems and structures, If you invest your 401k in a giant corporate mutual fund as most people do,. it is used to support militarism, corporate farming, oil industry, etc., and so forth. If you use an approach in line with the slowmoney philosophy, where you research local organic food producers, and small scale energy production, in your community and you invest in them, gaining perhaps a smaller return on your investment, but a greater social impact in your own region, you are making actual change,. real substantive change to the structure of society and our beleaguered culture!

There are many people working to create positive change,. we only need to get with these folks and stop supporting the corporate systems,.

I would say no, we can not use THIS forum in any useful way as it is not properly moderated and the trolls run rampant,. however there are many others that are being used this way already, so again; instead of pushing this forum to change, just use the others as they are intended and use this one as it current works, people yelling ideas into a large crowd. ;)

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (22863) 5 years ago

There are organizations in place, not many, but if we utilize them, they will grow. For instance, I have my money at a credit union, not a bank. I also shop at a cooperative for my groceries.

[-] -2 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

Ah Ok, we agree about that. I wouldn't really call that another economic system as it is part of capitalism, but I see your point.

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (22863) 5 years ago

True, but maybe it can move in that direction.

[-] -2 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

Personally, I don't mind capitalism all that much. There are many advantages in a capitalist system. I just think it's paramount that money is removed from politics and that there are certain checks and balances placed on the economic system. Some will say a good or great system needs to be pure and shouldn't required checks and balances to fine tune it, but I'm still on the fence whether I agree with that or not. Possibly. Perhaps there is a much better system waiting around the corner. I think we will have a power revolution in a few decades when solar power forcefully takes over and generates much more power than we have now in the world. At that point, we will multiply our economic output by many orders of magnitude like it happened during the agricultural revolution.

[-] 2 points by jph (2652) 5 years ago

Capitalism need to be held down with regulations,. regulations rising from the communities where 'capitalists' operate, living is said community to be able to operate should be one such regulation! Simply limit earnings to fix capitalism; all income over 1 million (or some clearly generous level) should be taxed at 90%,. all people earning less that 20K, are then given 20K,. like that. This STABILIZES the economy and gives everyone a basic living. All the cries of, the poor 'job creators' will flee, or they will 'stop working' are asinine,. people do not work ONLY for money, they do so because the enjoy the endeavor. And want to do stuff for their families and friends and the community at large. The corpratists lie to themselves and to the rest of us through their twisted propaganda machine; the MSM, and culture that it manufactures,. we can change our culture, we create it every day. A culture where small-scale capitalism and socialism in communities are the mix is what will work.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (22863) 5 years ago

A capitalist system with no checks and balances to fine tune it would be Austrian libertarian economics and would be devastating to most people. So, no, I'm not for that at all. I'm not sure what the new system should look like, but I think it should value labor completely differently. The economic system should work for all people not just the wealthy and corporations. Everyone would not need to have equal wealth, but everyone would need to have enough to live decently. Maybe a living wage, maybe a basic guarantee income, more employee ownership, things like that.

[-] -1 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

Yes, but all those things can exist under capitalism. You have to remember that the capitalist system in US is particularly angled towards the right. It became that way because US positioned itself against communism. Socialist countries operate under a capitalist economy and there are all kinds of safety nets. For example, hospital is free in Canada and many European nations. It's mind boggling that US, a superpower not to say the The superpower, treats its citizens so badly.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (22863) 5 years ago

Right, but socialist countries operate under a capitalist economy with checks and balances. The safety nets are the checks and balances. We've eroded ours here, as you point out, to the point of a near collapse of our society.

[-] -1 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

Like I said above, I believe capitalism is viable with checks and balances. I'm not sure if US ever had checks and balances, at least proper ones. The problem with you guys is you love religion so much. Throw that in the garbage. Start loving science and real stuff and you'll do much better.

[-] 0 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 5 years ago

The free market system is pure, it's the impure members who need the controls.

[-] 1 points by Madinusa (77) from Queens, NY 5 years ago

No this forum is not an "utter failure" as it has been the place where many of us, including me have put together the big sordid picture. It continues to be that... place...., but the trouble now is you have to weed through a lot of bull shit. The rest of your synopsis about this forum is right on the money though.

[-] 0 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

You're right of course. I threw in the utter failure part for effect. It makes the text much punchier. It's good to put a bit of oil on the fire sometimes. It gets stronger reactions.

[-] 1 points by Madinusa (77) from Queens, NY 5 years ago

Oh I see. Well if you want to put a "a bit of oil on the fire" to get some "stronger reactions"....let's make it a more volatile naptha-like..... 'f**king utter failure'..... OK?

This is in the hopes though that this forum has the ability to change for the better, and live up to its potential.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8632) from Phoenix, AZ 5 years ago

A somewhat good start, thank god you have arrived!!!

I do agree that the street protest would be more effective if their guiding forces were developed within a competitive area of ideals.

I look forward to hearing yours and hope that whenever you can you help to convey the best ideals to all, even the people you at OWS gatherings I think we all should do that.

Now what do think the most effective thing to do over the next few months?

[-] 0 points by freewriterguy (882) 5 years ago

just dont start saying we need a leader or else Ill quit, i do not believe any man can lead me better than myself. A true expression of freedom.

[-] -2 points by electron (-492) 5 years ago

Having a leader would be the worst idea. I think the anarchic setup is the best idea. No leader, no demands, no dwelling into politics. At all.

[-] -2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 5 years ago

mission impossible movie had no respect for the TV show