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Forum Post: Occupy's Choices: Anarchism, Violence and Failure. Or Non-Violently and Creatively Addressing Core Issues

Posted 11 years ago on May 11, 2012, 2:23 p.m. EST by Endgame (535)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

If this movement is going to be about wasting time trying to bring people over to the side of Anarchism and this fantasy of over throwing the government then we might as well just pack up everything and go home.

Occupy is kidding itself if we think we are too abstract and cool too participate in politics and make changes in the current political system. This should not be about creating some fantasy of over throwing the government its about living in reality and fixing the system we have and weeding out corruption. The more talk of anarchism and NOT doing anything to affect politics makes the majority turn away from the movement.

I don't care who started this movement the bottom line is that Anarchism by the overwhelming majority of the public(of all political backgrounds) is associated with violence and terrorists. Even if the word use to mean something else the fact is that for well over a century Anarchy has taken on a strong negative meaning. So do we waist time with a battle of what Anarchy is or do we actually achieve things of substance?

If we are going to allow the few extremists that want to vandalize and cause violence to associate with Occupy then we are going to continue to get destroyed in the public eye and the movement will die.

We need to focus on non-violently achieving REAL goals(getting outside money out of politics, ending corruption and bribery, financial reform, education costs, income inequality, the wars, etc). Over throwing the government is NOT one of them. We can not achieve anything if we have this pompous attitude that we are beyond political. Everything that Occupy is about is political! We don't have to be about one party or another. But if we are going to affect real change WE MUST VOTE, we must and get involved. If we don't this entire movement is toothless. Occupy runs the risk of becoming more like an exclusive club rather than an inclusive movement.

So whats it going to be?

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145 Comments


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[-] 2 points by francismjenkins (3713) 11 years ago

You should take some time to understand the anarchist intellectual tradition. Speaking for myself, spending some time learning about this tradition has been enlightening for me. Hint: it has nothing to do with either violence or partisan political campaigning (but it's also not a tune in and drop out sort of thing). There's overlap with progressivism, but there's also distinctions. Anyway, it's really something one has to research and learn about independently (I couldn't do the concept justice in a single post).

[-] 2 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

All of what you say may be true francismjenkins, but do you really believe we should waist years trying to fight a battle to reclaim and redefine the almost collective perception of what Anarchism is? I think this movements time can be spent doing tons of other meaningful substantial things.

[-] 1 points by markpaddles (143) from Denver, CO 11 years ago

It's "waste"... not waist. Waist is a part of the human body. Waste is to cause to lose energy.

What Francis says is true... and not "may be true"... and you would know that if you spent 1 hour reading anarchist theory.

[-] 0 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Thanks for the grammar lesson.

So I guess you're in the camp of the few that feel we should spend all of Occupy's efforts to fight the battle of the public perception of Anarchism instead of fighting battles of substance.

Im not saying francis is wrong. But I don't think you can say im wrong either. Try having this movement vocally be in favor of Anarchism and see what happens. This movement would die a quick death. 99% of the people at the rallies do not consider themselves Anarchists. They see themselves as participating in civil disobedience to achieve practical goals. Not to overthrow the government.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 11 years ago

The battle is of substance. Only you keep harping on the whole anarchism thing. OWS does not exist to promote anarchism. It exists to make change. It uses anarchist principles - aka direct democracy and decision making by consensus - as its organizational framework.

What should they do, adopt dictatorship instead to satisfy your misperceptions?

The Tea party, hardly a leftist group, in its very brief existence before being taken over by the republican party, was also anarchist in its organization. You don't hear any conservatives, or mainstream folks either objecting to that structure.

Finally, who, other than YOU, is talking about "overthrowing" anything? The founders of OWS have always talked about growing inside the empty shell of the current system until it outgrows it and the system breaks up of its own accord, like a chick growing in an egg. That is a process that could take a century or more. It is not, and never has been, about storming the Bastille.

In fact, it is specifically that goal of organic growth that is the reason behind its officially shunning party politics. That form of politics is the shell rather than the chick. It is also why many of the many "hard core" anarchists also cast their votes on election day; OWS is separate and apart from party politics. It neither encourages NOR discourages voting. It simply has nothing to do with it.

Sadly, you are not the only one who doesn't understand that. There are some misguided and brain dead zealots here who actively discourage voting. That is not, nor has it ever been a part of OWS's position, since OWS is not about party politics one way or the other. It is an entirely different animal.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

lol so I guess all the rallies i've been to when I have ran across people literally talking about Anarchy and over throwing the government were just joking? And some of the comments i've read on this board didn't actually happen. Thanks for clearing that up epa1nter.

And you say "OWS does not exist to promote anarchism". THATS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING! But I guess when I make that point somehow im wrong?

Like i've been saying these few people I am referring to do NOT represent the overwhelming majority of the movement and nor did I ever claim the did.

And you say many of the hardcore Anarchists cast their vote on election day? I hope thats true. I hope all of the comments i've come across of these people constantly saying they aren't going to vote is just nonsense.

And about the Tea Party, have you never heard a Tea Party describe the Occupy movement as a bunch of Anarchists and using the term as a negative term? They do it all the time lol. Seriously take a look in the right wing mega bubble and that is all you hear. Hell just tune into Faux News and everytime Occupy comes up they use Anarchism to paint us all in a negative light. And it works. I am not even disagreeing with you on the real meaning of the word(which I can tell is your primary problem with me) all im saying is Anarchy is seen as a negative thing in society and has been for a really long time whether its wrong or right. Am I wrong?

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 11 years ago

There are always a few who really don't get it, even at Occupations. BUt if you read interviews with David Graeber and some of the other select founders of the movement, they are talking about what I described. In fact, that's where I got the ideas from.

The Tea Partiers are mostly a bunch of complete morons. The very inception of that movement was based on complete economic and political ignorance. The fact that they don't even understand that prior to their own co-option, they were structured as a specifically anarchist, leaderless, direct democracy movement is a case on point. They are too historically dumb to even know what their own structure was, and prefer easy meaningless labels to smear their opponents with instead of understanding what they themselves were.

Again, that's not to say it is understood by some self-proclaimed, but completely misguided, faux anarchists here. "NoDemCooptation" (his 30th or 40th different username, since he keeps getting banned) is one of several people here who just don't understand that OWS is NOT against OR for party politics. It is neither against nor for voting. It was never intended to take a position on the matter, since it exists OUTSIDE of party politics.

People like them are tied to anarchism as an ego-position, secular from of cultist religious zealotry, (and for many of the same reasons as cultists - the stance gives them false certainties and reduces the world to black and white simplicities) not a social/political movement. The excoriate anyone who suggests that voting is one more form of action. Not the main one, for sure, but a small one nonetheless.

Personally, i feel these fake anarchist zealots harm the movement more than anyone on the right wing could ever hope to in their wildest fantasies.

Some background might help:

I attended and mostly lived in an anarchist school for 7 years. I was a practicing anarchist before I even knew what the word was, and remained one until I was 20 years old. This was back in the 1960s and 70s, and such places were not too uncommon. I was trained in, ate, slept and breathed an anarchist structured life. And when anybody asked me what the school was really about, I had one single answer: responsibility.

Anarchism is not for everyone. It takes a tremendous amount of work, It takes someone willing to be fully responsible for his own actions and fully responsible to his community's well being. But if one can accept the work, be fully one's own person, and willing to share communal aims - its struggles and celebrations - there is nothing as beautiful in the world. .

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

Anarchy: A Definition Stuart Christie What is anarchism?

Anarchism is the movement for social justice through freedom. It is concrete, democratic and egalitarian. It has existed and developed since the seventeenth century, with a philosophy and a defined outlook that have evolved and grown with time and circumstance. Anarchism began as what it remains today: a direct challenge by the underprivileged to their oppression and exploitation. It opposes both the insidious growth of state power and the pernicious ethos of possessive individualism, which, together or separately, ultimately serve only the interests of the few at the expense of the rest.

Anarchism promotes mutual aid, harmony and human solidarity, to achieve a free, classless society - a cooperative commonwealth. Anarchism is both a theory and practice of life. Philosophically, it aims for perfect accord between the individual, society and nature. In an anarchist society, mutually respectful sovereign individuals would be organised in non-coercive relationships within naturally defined communities in which the means of production and distribution are held in common.

Anarchists, are not simply dreamers obsessed with abstract principles. We know that events are ruled by chance, and that people’s actions depend much on long-held habits and on psychological and emotional factors that are often anti-social and usually unpredictable. We are well aware that a perfect society cannot be won tomorrow. Indeed, the struggle could last forever! However, it is the vision that provides the spur to struggle against things as they are, and for things that might be.

Whatever the immediate prospects of achieving a free society, and however remote the ideal, if we value our common humanity then we must never cease to strive to realise our vision. If we settle for anything less, then we are little more than beasts of burden at the service of the privileged few, without much to gain from life other than a lighter load, better feed and a cosier berth.

Ultimately, only struggle determines outcome, and progress towards a more meaningful community must begin with the will to resist every form of injustice.

In general terms, this means challenging all exploitation and defying the legitimacy of all coercive authority. If anarchists have one article of unshakeable faith then it is that, once the habit of deferring to politicians or ideologues is lost, and that of resistance to domination and exploitation acquired, then ordinary people have a capacity to organise every aspect of their lives in their own interests, anywhere and at any time, both freely and fairly.

Anarchism encompasses such a broad view of the world that it cannot easily be distilled into a formal definition. Michael Bakunin, the man whose writings and example over a century ago did most to transform anarchism from an abstract critique of political power into a theory of practical social action, defined its fundamental tenet thus: In a word, we reject all privileged, licensed, official, and legal legislation and authority, even though it arise from universal suffrage, convinced that it could only turn to the benefit of a dominant and exploiting minority, and against the interests of the vast enslaved majority.

Anarchists do not stand aside from popular struggle, nor do they attempt to dominate it. They seek to contribute to it practically whatever they can, and also to assist within it the highest possible levels both of individual self-development and of group solidarity. It is possible to recognise anarchist ideas concerning voluntary relationships, egalitarian participation in decision-making processes, mutual aid and a related critique of all forms of domination in philosophical, social and revolutionary movements in all times and places.

Elsewhere, the less formal practices and struggles of the more indomitable among the propertyless and disadvantaged victims of the authority system have found articulation in the writings of those who on brief acquaintance would appear to be mere millenarian dreamers. Far from being abstract speculations conjured out of thin air, such works have, like all social theories, been derived from sensitive observation. They reflect the fundamental and uncontainable conviction nourished by a conscious minority throughout history that social power held over people is a usurpation of natural rights: power originates in the people, and they alone have, together, the right to wield it.

[-] -2 points by ICantSpellShoesCorrectly (-1) 11 years ago

Did you support the Tea Party before it was co-opted?

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 11 years ago

No.

[-] 1 points by markpaddles (143) from Denver, CO 11 years ago

"So I guess you're in the camp of the few that feel we should spend all of Occupy's efforts to fight the battle of the public perception of Anarchism instead of fighting battles of substance. "

Nope. And I addressed this "issue" in my main reply to your post.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Just read it. And I had some disagreements with what you said.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

Those people at those rallies for the most part also believe that we need a sea change in the way our country is run, and that will not come about only by the methods you prescribe.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Odin, so what methods are you prescribing?

And based on your previous baseless attack on me on a previous post I made I have a feeling that you don't even completely know what methods I am talking about.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

First, i was contrite in my reply to you, as I did not intend to be impolite. OK, most of my answer is also found in my last post, but I'll go over it again with a different slant. This struggle has to be fought at every level possible, but the thrust of it has to be outside the system. That means out in the streets. When enough people educate themselves with our help, we then have the chance to demand change, not ask for it. All along the way though, their will be set-backs, as well as victories that will put more pressure on this corrupt system. Since the change that we need is so sweeping...and the financial and political elite have so much to lose....i know it will be easy, but I think that I can talk for most people here and say... that is what is necessary.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you think this can be done by the traditional petitioning the government for 'redress of grievances' (or something similar) process, and/or voting only. I would venture to say that most OWS people would find that amusing, as many of them have been in political campaigns as volunteers, and with one OWS young person i know who was a paid consultant. More of us, including me have belonged to good altruistic government groups like Common Cause, and Public Citizen. MY point is, we have learned by experience just how futile going through the political system alone is at this point in our country's history, especially since we have seen OWS do more in 7-8 months, than those groups have done in all their years of existence.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Of course im not advocating for Occupy to stop protesting and to abandon the civil disobedience tactics. Those are part of what make Occupy so unique and appealing. If I came off suggesting otherwise that was not my intention.

I do not believe in JUST the traditional methods of voting and petitioning the government officials to fix the problems. In a corrupt political system that has become more based on bribery than actually fixing problems we can't just go at this from a traditional stand point.

So you're basically preaching to the choir. I am also apart of groups like Common Cause.

When I speak about the flaws in the Occupy movement im talking about core messaging, PR mistakes, not letting the fringe sour our name, etc. But by no means does that mean I think we go about this in just the traditional sense.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

Wow...we're on a roll here, lots of agreement! For sure Occupy might not be doing everything right. No revolution has not made mistakes.. We are a young movement, and we are learning as we go. I know that they get advice from people who have led past struggles both in this country, and abroad. I met one of these people from Egypt. This movement, as I think you may have pointed out in another post is unlike any other, but there are things you can learn from all of them.

As i may have pointed out earlier, there are many OWS affinity groups that I know of that are popping up in all five of NYC's boroughs, and on college campuses as well both in NY and NJ. Some of them take on a regional perspective, some ethnic or cultural, and others are more specialized yet. As I found out at the big GA, and get together in Central Park in mid April they have been very busy over the winter. The group that I help out with is Occupy Town Square. Their main purpose like most of the groups is to reach out to the mainstream. They collaborate with these other groups to do pop-up events in NY's parks, and even a church once.

My role is small, as I just send out invitations to their events to nearby university poly sci, and economics depts. I am going to expand that to sociology, and anthropology depts. though. I do give them some suggestions as i have a different perspective, since i am about twice as old as most of them, but i fully realize it is their show. They do all the hard work, and i have witnessed them emailing each other, and different groups from morning until night. They also meet in a park usually for their weekly meetings, after many of them have worked or gone to school all day. It is very impressive to see. Other than that, on the day of the event, i just lug tables around, talk to people, and i have even cleaned up dog shit once. I did feel bad about that though as someone had circled it, and labeled it Occupoop. It was funny. There are no big egos in this affinity group...whoever is best at something, or whatever works best is what goes, and that horizontal BS :-) does not seem to be as cumbersome as it sometimes is with OWS. Anyway, you will not hear about all this, I know from the corporate owned news media, so i felt compelled to let you know that this revolution is in good hands.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

I think we were quick to prejudge each other. The types of things that you are doing is exactly what this movement is about at its core. Creatively coming up with solutions to our problems and a non violent inclusive way.

I wish I could experience the New York Occupy but unfortunately I don't have the means to right now. But im doing my part unfortunately where I am (conservative state) its hard sometimes to keep up the spirit. But seeing your story and hearing about whats happening at the epicenter of this movement in the background is an uplifting thing to hear.

I would still argue that if this movement had better structure(not in the traditional sense though) we would find ways to handle the media better and better control the perception of our movement and shut down the lies of the Faux New's of the world.

Keep up the great work man. "Occupoop" LOL.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

I was reading all of our exchanges over again, and found this one i did not respond to. Yes we were quick to prejudge each other, and i am glad neither of us escalated our tensions before sorting out our misunderstanding. Our discussion last night was one of the best i have had on here.

While I do live in a swing state, NJ that is fairly liberal or progressive, I live in a very conservative county, so I know what you are going through. lol People are hurting here economically as housing/real estate was a big part of the economy for a long time. The ordinary joe here cannot see the big picture, and they are so accustomed to fighting the left/right battle that they continue to do so, blaming everything on Obama. Don't get me wrong, I am not defending him, but as we both obviously know, he is not the main problem.

I am trying to educate people down here on the Shore (65 mi. south of NYC) on what Occupy is about by dropping off flyers at super-markets, libraries, convenience stores, and laundry mats. Some of the lit is just stuff i pick up in NYC, but then I made a custom one up that had OWS stuff on the outside, and my own spiel on the inside.... where to look for good info including docs...web sites...libraries..., etc....one page folded like a book...printed on bright green paper. Considering my lack of computer skills, it turned out quite good with different size lettering, etc. The inside ended with, Choose The World That Your Kids Will Grow Up In-Support Occupy Wall Street, or Don't Complain- Do Nothing And- The Corrupt Status Quo Will Continue By Default.' Before that, I wrote, 'There are many good sources for information at the library, and different web sites, but you will not find the whole truth in the corporate-owned news media, that i can guarantee.' Anyway, i drop off 2-4 of these flyers, in the sale paper bins when I go to these places, and I know which days some of the sale papers get replenished, so I know pretty well that they will not be thrown out, before people pick them up.

I do feel fortunate living close enough to NYC, and to have lucked out in meeting people close to the core of this movement. One of the first persons i met was a young lady from France. She introduced me to a guy, who was from Egypt, and was advising Occupy. Several of us, including her were working for a while on trying to set up a web site called occupy4seachange. When that did not work out, she very graciously dragged me along to Occupy Town Square without missing a beat. I tease her, and call her the Lafayette of the Occupy movement, but i am not sure if she likes it. ;-) What is amazing about her is that she is from a prominent family in France, and graduated from what I believe is a very prestigious university in London. She is also one of the people that would greet protesters (sometimes traumatized) coming out of jail. She is truly a remarkable young lady, and she is not alone in being so.

The first demonstration I was in, was when we delivered letters to the banks from forclosed home-owners. I was asked to hold this long pole with this other guy with a huge letter to the bank in between. the guy who asked me was one of the stars of The Yes Men, which although it is presented in a funny way, the content is anything but funny. It really is worth seeing. Anyway he gave us a DVD of the movie when we brought the poles back to the original place where we started. I have not seen him since, though.

It is difficult to "handle", or control the media. Their interests are solid with the corrupt status quo. When the mainstream realize that the media is not covering this movement, and/or not responding to the people's angst...they may then be embarrassed into giving it better coverage. I would not count on it though.

I am on the whole an optimistic person, but i do not see things getting better, as far as the economy goes. Of course that is not good for the people who will be suffering, but it may be the impetus that causes OWS to take off.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

You deserve your screen name because you've really been putting in work. I bow to thee Odin of Occupy New York from House of Jersey lol. But seriously you've been doing great work.

Unfortunately I do agree with you about the economy. The economy going the way its going could be the impetus that causes OWS to take off but it could also due the same for part of the corrupt media. Its going to be interesting to see how we are able to get the truth out over all the noise.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

Lol...never mind that bowing shit. I've got the time, and more importantly i have my good health back. As i have pointed out in another comment, us Vikings (my dad was from Sweden) have become much more civilized. We now eat with forks...say please, and thank you, etc., but we still enjoy a good rumble like this. Seriously though, I just want my granddaughter to grow up in a better world. It is that simple.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 11 years ago

We could always just invent a new word I suppose :)

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 11 years ago

Shadow banned. Way to go Cupcake!

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

If so - shouldn't your comments not show up on the comment board?

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 11 years ago

The post is shadow banned.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

Address the site and the moderators. Use their e-mail addresses too.

Perhaps they need to have a meeting about moderators and moderating and then address the Forum.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 11 years ago

link it up

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 11 years ago

Has this been shadow banned? Just checkin.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Noticed how this thread doesn't show up anymore unless you're signed in. Sign out and see what happens to the thread.

I think that is cheap and shady as hell.

[-] 1 points by markpaddles (143) from Denver, CO 11 years ago

Endgame wrote... "If this movement is going to be about wasting time trying to bring people over to the side of Anarchism and this fantasy of over throwing the government then we might as well just pack up everything and go home."

Who said that this is all that Occupy is about? The only fantasy that is being peddled is the one you are propagating. Let me relate my experience: Right now, today, on streets, and in the meetings, Occupy Denver has three separate things going on: 1) Organizing and building coalitions to help foreclosure victims - which then uses its strength to pressure politicians and banks. 2) Organizing and discussing how to start a CO campaign to help stop the wars, and the possible upcoming war with Iran. 3) And organizing, discussing and engaging in direct action to stop a local bill that will criminalize homelessness. This is the reality on the ground! I will be joining the Generally assembly at 3PM, and the discussions are NOT about how to bring people to the side of anarchism.

Endgame wrote... "Occupy is kidding itself if we think we are too abstract and cool too participate in politics and make changes in the current political system."

Please speak for yourself. The people I work with at occupy ARE participating in politics, and ARE trying to make changes to the current political situation. What exactly do you think organizing groups, building coalitions, raising awareness, and using these groups to pressure politicians and the political system is?

Endgame wrote... "I don't care who started this movement.."

Then don't care, but you should, at the very least, respect that what they created is the very thing you supposedly care about.

Endgame wrote... "If we are going to allow the few extremists that want to vandalize and cause violence to associate with Occupy then we are going to continue to get destroyed in the public eye and the movement will die."

Out of the 100 plus marches on Mayday only a few had vandalism issues... why do you continue to help propagate that vandalism and violence is the issue when this "issue" has been manufactured and framed by the corporate news?

Endgame wrote.. "We need to focus on non-violently achieving REAL goals..."

OCCUPY IS FOCUSING ON NON-VIOLENCE!!!!!

Endgame wrote... "But if we are going to affect real change WE MUST VOTE, we must and get involved."

The civil rights activists effected real change by pressuring the political system through acts of non-violent civil disobedience and direct actions. Here is a profound thought: We can do BOTH! Spend 1 hour deciding who to vote for, and 5 minutes voting, and then use the rest of your free time helping to organize, build coalition groups, and raise awareness to pressure the political system. It worked for the civil rights movement! And it can work here too! And occupy IS involved - EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. as they organize and build coalitions that help to raise awareness through education and then by using these groups to pressure the current politicians. That IS a part of politics (and if you disagree might I suggest picking up a book from any brilliant political philosopher and getting educated - I'll even help you out and suggest a book by Prof. Sheldon Wolin, "Politics and Vision") And so few of the people that I have meet in these groups think they are "beyond politics". What you write is just utter bullshit, and you need to stop propagating it - at least if you want to continue pretending that you actually care about this movement.

Endgame wrote... "Occupy runs the risk of becoming more like an exclusive club rather than an inclusive movement. " Occupy's doors are wide open and accepting of EVERYONE and their ideas.

Please stop propagating your shallow understanding of what is happening in our Occupy communities across this nation.

[-] 2 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Dude chill the hell out. I never said that the things that this movement hasn't done or is attempting to do is not important. I have never said that the majority of the movement is not non violent. In fact I said 99% of it is.

And mark, have you not been paying attention to some of the very people that run this site? Some of them say that we should NOT get involved in the political system. You even have some of the Anarchists here saying we should over throw the government and NOT just work to fix the problems. You've even had apologists of the vandalizers and excuse violence. Im sure the vast majority of other Occupiers you have been around(and in my experience too) are non-violent and are working to achieve real and practical goals but you can not deny that there are a small amount of others from within the movement that do not abide by those values. So please stop acting like im talking out of my ass. Maybe you're comments should be more directed at people like jart than myself.

But if you are paying attention to the direction of the perception the country has of the Occupy movement its been getting worse. The lack of structure is allowing the enemies of the movement to characterize the entire movement as extremist, anarchists(the public has a really negative perception of anarchism). And when Occupy does not have the PR structure to immediately condemn the few that vandalize and cause damage to property and business, Occupy just falls right into the negative picture that is being painted of us.

And talking with people I can tell you that its working. People see our movement and think "whats the point" or "whats the endgame, what specifically are they asking for". The fact that people are STILL asking these questions this many months into the movement shows that PR wise we are doing a horrible job. No matter what good the movement is doing you have to have the proper PR to let people know in a positive light.

And about civil rights. What make the civil rights movement different from this movement is that people were literally dieing and visibly being mistreated due to the color of their skin. Its a much more tangible and literal situation. Do I think Occupy can learn something from the Civil Rights movement and the tactics of the activists in it, absolutely. But you can't expect the same literal result because the movements are so different from each other. The reason those tactics ended up working is because it was decided the basic rights of a person should not be put up to a vote. The Occupy movement is potentially the most important movement in my lifetime but it is largely dealing with political and economy issues. Civil Rights was dealing with basic human rights. So I don't think you can use ONLY those tactics and expect the same outcomes. That is why we can not neglect voting and getting involved in the political system.

So in the end of the day I don't think you want to hear anything anyone has to say that is critical of the movement or the FACT of how Anarchism is viewed across this country and if touted by the movement can and will hurt the movements progress. You can call that "utter bullshit" all you want but it doesn't make it any less true.

[-] 0 points by markpaddles (143) from Denver, CO 11 years ago

Please don’t project emotions onto my comment. I wrote my comment in a calm and rational way, and I don’t appreciate your false projections.

Look, I am not going to speak for all of occupy movements throughout this country, like you really love to do. Each one has a distinct flavor (that much is obvious if you take a little time to read through each of their websites). My issue with your message is that you are painting with too broad of a brushstroke, trying to speak for the occupy as a whole, and are blurring the line between what is happening in this particular online forum and what is happening in all of the occupy movements across this country. By doing so you falsely propagate the idea that all occupy movements are as you suggest in your post. And the reason I can rebut your post with full confidence is because what I am experiencing here in Denver is anything but what you are trying to propagate.

I mean, check out your first paragraph, “If this movement is going to be about wasting time trying to bring people over to the side of Anarchism and this fantasy of over throwing the government then we might as well just pack up everything and go home.”

Again, I can only speak for what I am seeing here in Denver, but this is NOT happening here. We are NOT wasting time trying to “bring people over to the side of Anarchism.” They are involved in the items I wrote about in my reply to you. So I take issue with this statement of yours because it doesn’t speak for the reality on the ground – put simply, it’s an false statement.

Endgame wrote… “And mark, have you not been paying attention to some of the very people that run this site? Some of them say that we should NOT get involved in the political system. You even have some of the Anarchists here saying we should over throw the government and NOT just work to fix the problems. You've even had apologists of the vandalizers and excuse violence.

No, I don’t pay attention to the people who run this site. And as to the other people who comment here… just because they say they represent Occupy doesn’t mean that they actually do in reality. All political online forums are a breeding ground for false personas pushing false persuasions. Here is what I do pay close attention to when I visit this site, or any political forum: the message that is being propagated. And that is specifically what I did when I decided to address your erroneous message.

One last thing:

You wrote: “So I don't think you can use ONLY those tactics [of civil rights movement] and expect the same outcomes. That is why we can not neglect voting and getting involved in the political system.”

I never stated that Occupy should “only” use those tactics. In fact, I said: Here is a profound thought: We can do both! Spend 1 hour deciding who to vote for, and 5 minutes voting, and then use the rest of your free time helping to organize, build coalition groups, raise awareness, and engaging in direct actions to pressure the political system.

Alright, you take care of yourself. I’m done conversing with you.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

I think i've pinned down your problem. This whole time you've just been looking at the movement from whats going on in your state. But do you think the people from the outside looking in are thinking things like "oh man I may not agree with whats going on in my local Occupy but I really love the one in Oregon"? lol of course they aren't. When they look at the news or read the paper or however they get their news and they see the reported actions of an Occupy in another state, those actions are a reflection on Occupy as a whole in their eyes.

You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. Im sure things are going great for Occupy in your state of Denver but just because that may be the case doesn't mean that everything is peachy everywhere else. Some bs happens in Occupy Florida you best believe the average person equates that to all of Occupy. It would be wise for everyone in the movement no matter what state you're in to not fall into the trap of living in a bubble. OWS falls the whole thing falls.

And I wasn't painting everyone in the movement with a broad brush. Im talking from a recruitment/PR standpoint. I've made that clear from the very beginning. And I would suggest that you do pay at least some of the fringe characters on this site. Because they are the ones that claim to be spokesman for the movement while doing the worst jobs ever doing so in national interviews. The fringe lets overthrow the government crowd may be the tiny minority but when they go unchecked they can destroy the whole movement. Perception is everything.

But since you're done conversing with with me I don't expect you to read any of this. But seeing your arrogant attitude in display I can kind of understand how you can lose focus on the movement as a whole and just focus on whats going on around you. Have fun in your bubble.

[-] 1 points by markpaddles (143) from Denver, CO 11 years ago

I stated what my problem was - your erroneous message. The only thing you've pinned down is your shady use of straw man arguments, ad hominems, and the propagation of false messages.

Endgame wrote... "This whole time you've just been looking at the movement from whats going on in your state."

No, not at all, and actually I visit many of the bigger occupy cities websites on a regular basis to see what is going on. It is more accurate to say that this whole time I have been using my personal experience with occupy here in Denver to explain why your message is not the truth.

It is really very simple: If your message was true... then the GA I was just at would have been all about "how we could bring people over to the side of anarchism" and "how to over throw the gov't." But it wasn't! And that is why your message is FALSE. Do you care to address this point? I don't think you do...

And let's not forget that the burden of proof lies with you. If you are going to make a claim then you need to back that up with evidence. And the only evidence you have provided so far is that a few "fringe characters" who post here anonymously say that this is how it is. Here is the thing, Sherlock... almost all of the occupy movements across the country have a dedicated website that openly shows what they are doing, discussing and the proposals they have created.

Let's use Occupy Austin as an example: http://occupyaustin.org/ga/ This link openly shows what they discussed at their GA's, and their proposals. Go read through this and show me specifically where they are "wasting energy on bringing people over to the side of anarchism."

Do you get how that works? On top of using my personal experience... I also just provided evidence for why your message is not true. Now, go show why your claim is true by providing real evidence. Giddy'up, I'm anxiously awaiting...

"But seeing your arrogant attitude in display..."

Hilarious! Now I'm arrogant because I called out your erroneous message? Good stuff.

[-] 0 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

lol I thought you were done conversing with me. I must of struck a nerve. But im glad you decided to continue to grace me with your presents my liege.

You say: [["this whole time I have been using my personal experience with occupy here in Denver to explain why your message is not the truth". ]]

Again, im not saying that you haven't had good experiences with Occupy. Hell I've had good experiences at the rallies in my state and my state unfortunately leans right(I certainly do not). But to base only YOUR experiences with the movement with what the national "outsider looking in" perspective is, is just not wise. Its like you're only paying attention to the positive(which there are a lot of) but you refuse to focus on ANY flaws of the movement. But I guess because I am focusing on both and also taking into account the perception of the movement from different angles and talking about it...that makes me a troll?

You say: [["If your message was true... then the GA I was just at would have been all about "how we could bring people over to the side of anarchism" and "how to over throw the gov't." But it wasn't! And that is why your message is FALSE. Do you care to address this point? I don't think you do..."]]

How did anything I say suggest that I think its the same EVERYWHERE?! I never said or suggested that. But do some of those people exist in the movement? They absolutely do. I had my run in with them at some of the rallies that I have attended in my own state on multiple occasions. And I can tell you that the majority of the Occupiers there did not agree with these fringe characters. But I guess this is where you paint me as covering all Occupiers with a broad brush. Even though I have not. But I guess that fits into your narrative of me. So whatever works for you.

I will also say that when you take into account of how we allow ourselves to be butchered in the media(yeah you may not care about that but that is something this movement HAS to take into account) by letting fringe members make us look bad by vandalizing during protests, etc and claiming to be spokesmen for all of us while giving national interviews. Did you see that horrible interview some "Occupy spokesman" gave on Faux news a few weeks back? Shit like that should NOT happen. And if falls right into the shady and deceitful narrative that entities like Faux News are creating for us. To deny that is to be short sighted and in denial of any errors of this movement.

You say: [[Let's use Occupy Austin as an example: http://occupyaustin.org/ga/ This link openly shows what they discussed at their GA's, and their proposals. Go read through this and show me specifically where they are "wasting energy on bringing people over to the side of anarchism."]]

See you would have a point IF I was actually painting every Occupier under the same light. But I never have. So I don't see how you linking to another Occupy forum proves any point that counters what im saying.

You say: [[ "I also just provided evidence for why your message is not true." ]] lol no you haven't.

You say: [[ "Do you get how that works? On top of using my personal experience..." ]] And the exact same thing can be said about my personal experiences. But unlike you seem to be doing, im also focusing on whats wrong with the movement not just whats right. And there is a lot of good things about it. Like i've said many times here this movement has the potential of being the biggest and most important movement in my lifetime. But if we don't fix some of the problems there is a real risk of us losing the PR battle and message battle. We lose those fights this movement won't make it. And it will become more like a club than anything that achieve anything substantial.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

Not to worry real supporters will not call out those trying to make a contribution in their own way as long as it is non-violent. Nothing is written in stone as to how you can or can not confront the Ill's of this world. Fight the good fight as best you can.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

Markpaddles could easily have been talking for OWSNY too, and I did not think he was arrogant at all, nor do I believe that he has lost focus.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

Another great reply. :):)

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

Dude - FYI - you were responding to a troll.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

Excellent reply. Yoo hoo Occupy Denver! The affinity group that i am involved with in NYC, Occupy Town Square is doing the same sort of things that you guys are doing. The dedication of these bright young people is remarkable. They all know that being in the streets though is an integral part of this movement.

[-] 1 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 11 years ago

Raise the minimum wage to $10 an hour.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

This is not a, "...pompous attitude that we are beyond political," as you define it. Rather, at this point, from thirty years of experience in which our downward slide took place, OWS has a 'realistic attitude.' That does not mean that we want to achieve our goals violently though, but it does mean using peaceful civil disobedienc, or direct action....with a dash of traditional politics thrown in.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

I think the majority of Occupy completely agrees with using peaceful civil disobedience to achieve realist goals(as do I). But to deny there are a small few that have completely unrealistic fantasy goals of Occupy(overthrowing the government) and are willing to achieve that in other means than civil disobedience, would be a huge mistake.

And of course our political system is in a downward spiral. Thats because at its core its become basically a system of bribery that the extremely powerful and rich can manipulate. So yes we need to change that. But we do that with FOCUSED goals.

So I don't see what it is I said exactly that you are disagreeing with.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

First i do not completely understand anarchists the way that francis does, so i will not condemn them for now, anyway. It is on my list of things to have a better knowledge of. That being said, i think that you too might be in the same boat as me. On a side note though, i do know this adorable little anarchist, but have not talked to her much. She does not look evil to me, though. :-)

For what I even might have viewed as fantasy at one time, i do not so much anymore. This is a world revolution, something that has come to light only recently for many people ....to even some people here on this forum. People all over the world are feeling the effects of crony capitalism, and neoliberalism which puts corporate and banking interests ahead of people. In this country the detrimental effects are being felt only fairly recently. That is not so in many other countries where they have experienced a lifetime of it, and/or where the effects have been far more severe. Many of the people in this country want a new paradigm which we operate within, and so do the people of the world. This is no "fantasy." This is a reality that is shared by mostly people half my age. Finally, I will humbly say that i have learned to look at the world....at life... through their eyes, and I would ask you to do the same.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

But every single person that is apart of this movement wants a better political system. So that isn't the problem. The problem comes when you have people that are trying to completely over throw the government and not fix it. THAT is a fantasy.

And for a revolution to be successful (in this sense of the economy and the political system) you need the majority on your side. If we don't form a clear core message and squash the fringe rhetoric of overthrowing government(even though the fringe are a very small group. Dare I say 1% of the 99%ers) there won't be enough of the public on board for any revolution.

For the most part I think we agree. I don't want this to seem like I am not for this movement. Live i've said many times here, I think this movement has the potential to be the most important event in my lifetime. I just don't want to see it squandered away.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

I am not sure what you mean by "overthrow the government." I am talking about getting rid of the crony capitalism, and neoliberalism that is in place today, and replacing it with a return to a democratic system, where the rule of law is applied fairly across the board, and I think we can both agree on that, right? I do not believe that this can be accomplished in the way that...'I think'... you believe though, as the corrupt system has too much to lose if these changes take place, so that resistance on their part will have to be met with a strong opposite force (not violence) on our part.

I do not want this movement to be "squandered away" either, but i also don't want to settle for a few little reforms that can easily be watered down, and even over-turned by smart lobbyists. I know personally how hard they work as I have one of them in my extended family who is a partner in one of Washington's most powerful law/lobbying firms.

I realize that by wanting so much, we may be jeopardizing our chances for getting anything, but i feel that is a risk worth taking, as I truly believe...without wanting to sound melo-dramatic... that we are at a turning point in our civilization. And if we do not address our problems including the economy..wars...civil liberties... and our enviroment, we will just be putting off a disaster on one or more of these fronts.

I realize that for the most part we have enjoyed a very good life with capitalism, but yes I do question whether it can accomodate the changes we need to make at this time in the world's history. Is that scary? Yes, for me too.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

When I am talking about some of the few fringe people that believe in overthrowing the government, I was not referring to you or what you were saying.

And by no means do I think we should settle for little reforms. I just think at the core of getting to any real reforms we have to deal with the root of the problem. The root of the problems is the bribery. The outside money. As long as that core issue is not dealt with the powerful corporations and special interests will be able to continue to buy politicians and use the corrupt system to screw us all over.

If we want to have an honest debate on Capitalism and ALL other matters without lies and misinformation, we have to fix the problem that is stopping us from being able to do that. Outside money.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

Yes before we can do anything, we have to get the corrupt money..."bribes".. out of politics. To use a nautical metaphor, that should be our first port of call. From there we can decide whether we want to go to what some of us might believe is a better place, or a different form of government. But that does not mean that we should not be preparing for the possible longer voyage on the way to that first POC. A good seaman should always ready for the unforseen, as I know from my thirty plus years on the 'boats.'

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Agree on all account.

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[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 11 years ago

I agree with francismjenkins that you should take some time to learn about the anarchist intellectual tradition. You might want to start with this article by David Graeber, one of the founders of OWS.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-wall-streets-anarchist-roots/

[-] 2 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

I have already begun doing that. But the real question is does this movement spend years trying to change the public's opinion of Anarchism?

I honestly don't think its worth it. There are so many other things we need to be doing.

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 11 years ago

This has become a huge dividing issue. Here's where I personally stand. I think OWS must ultimately represent and never give up on the huge watershed change to society that will be necessary to get us past the ravages of capitalism and the legacy of the Protestant Reformation. This big change requires a new economic and possibly political system, altogether. This will take a long time. This, in my mind, is the ultimate goal of this movement. If we move away from this we are become no different than moveon.org, unions, or the Democratic Party itself. We just become another group following and working within the same old political structure.

In the meantime, however, there are shorter term issues that can and should be addressed such as getting money out of politics, instituting a living wage, universal healthcare, etc. etc. We have so many problems, the list can go on and on.

I believe Occupy can succeed at both these long term and short term goals. I do not understand why we are having so much division. These goals are not mutually exclusive.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 years ago

Your wise words above are an excellent 'bridge building' comment encouraging a longer term perspective and asking us here to prioritise and see things 'in the round' and over time !

It was once at +5 and the fact that your important comment has been 'concertedly down-voted' and off 'Best Comments Today' to deprive it of an audience, really only speaks volumes of 'The Reactionary Opposition' desperate to infiltrate and subvert this forum !!

Keep up the good work. It it wasn't hurting 'Them' and their agenda 'They' and their agents would ignore you & leave us alone. 'The Bell tolls for Them' !!!

nil desperandum et caveat ...

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 11 years ago

Thanks for your kind words. I noticed the down voting. Oh well. The points mean nothing to me, but I would like us all to come to some sort of agreement on this. We are the 99%, after-all.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 years ago

You are welcome and I merely expressed the truth as I saw it. 'JadedCitizen' too is at the receiving end of similar 'concerted down-voting' treatment !

Someone once said that "The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance" and tho' I can't quite recall exactly who said it right now, it does seem apt !!

The more threatening that we and our ideas become to The Corporate Banking Oligarchs - the more determined and concerted will be their invidious and insidious response because 'They' clearly can NOT confront us in open debate !!!

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (23769) 11 years ago

Very well said.

[-] 1 points by JenLynn (692) 11 years ago

I think it's because it's impossible to accomplish the short term goals without using the current system. The anarchists see that as a betrayal of their ideals perhaps.

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 11 years ago

Yes, that's it, but, I think we can do both.

[-] 2 points by JenLynn (692) 11 years ago

The problem is there are enough people that disagree with you to block any attempt to use the current political system to make any progressive changes. You've got your own version of gridlock.

My own opinion is that the anarchists need the entire system to collapse before their vision can advance. It needs a lot more suffering then there is now, fixing anything through the system hurts their goal.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 11 years ago

I'm not happy at all about the divisions we're experiencing right now. It is very difficult because both arguments have merit. Both are right!

Do you have any advice, JenLynn? We need brainpower on this one. Everyone needs to come together on this.

[-] 3 points by JenLynn (692) 11 years ago

Sorry I don't see a solution to the problem. I see the divisions as just the natural result of too many causes and everyone defending their favorite one. Anarchy is great on paper but people have too much ego. Leaders do develop, cliques develop, the wrong opinion gets someone mad at you and working against your idea because it wasn't theirs.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 11 years ago

This is not as black and white as people would like to make it out to be. I guess only time will tell.

[-] 1 points by JenLynn (692) 11 years ago

Very true, no one knows what is going to happen, everyone builds some story in his mind for himself, about what he believes will happen. No one know what the actions we're doing is going to result in. Occupy will cause some changes, some might be the opposite of what they want. I read that the police commissioner has become so popular the repubs would like to run him for mayor. That's irony i think. there will be good changes too.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

JenLynn that is a GREAT point and part of what I was trying to get at. Well said.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

I am with you on almost everything you said. We absolutely need to use tactics of peaceful civil disobedience to seek big changes. But what I would say about Occupy is that we do NOT need to get away from all organizations and the political system as a whole. Its important to not be co-opted by corrupt entities but instead of shunning everything away we should be bringing in unions, and things like movingon.org and any members of any political party. But the key is that we change them and bring them on board with us and not the other way around.

We need to be careful not to turn Occupy into a club and keep it as an inclusive movement. That is part of how we grow.

[-] -2 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 11 years ago

There are only three camps.

No change to the system || Reform the system || Transform the system.

OWS is in the third camp because it knows Capitalism is flawed and needs to be replaced with something better.

You are not on board with this because you are in the 'reform' camp. Have at it, reforms can help, but understand the underlying mechanisms of the system which produced the powerful elites f**king up your life and causing all this corruption will still remain. THIS MEANS, at some point in the future, your kids or grandkids will be back in the same spot with another oligarchy, plutocracy, aristocracy, or whatever -archy you want to name this corrupt ruling system. So replacing corrupt-archy with an-archy (an- means without) is worth spending years and years on if necessary.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

But let me ask you something. Is it easier to completely Transform the system we have now or to drastically Reform the system so that we THEN actually have a change of Transforming it?

I think it is much harder and may even be unrealistic to make some of the extreme changes some of the members in Occupy want immediately due to two things.

Problem 1. Due to the outside money in politics and the bribery that is allowed in our corrupt political system its going to be nearly impossible to make those kinds of changes to it. That is why we need to focus on realistic Reforms first like ending the bribery in our political system. Achieve that along with some other key issues(alot of which you named off) THEN we will have a chance and will be able to have honest discussions about completely Transforming the system.

Problem 2. The power of this movement relies on the amount of people we are able to bring into it. Talking about some of the extreme Transformations will and has turned alot of people off. Mainly because of the corrupt media but mainly because of the money in politics that allows for the powerful to create a phony narrative and stop all genuine conversations of Transformation.

We have to walk before we can run. We can achieve HUGE things by reforming the system. We need to focus on that. Then we have a shot at Transforming it.

But I would argue that getting outside money out of politics IS part of the transformation of the system. Its the one transformative thing that is truly achievable and necessary. And it will lead to more transformation of the system.

[-] -1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 11 years ago

Problem 1. Have at it. Most will help. No one is saying reforms are useless. But you are deluding yourself if you think it is a cure and not merely a step towards the cure.

Problem 2. Simply. TRUTH=TRUTH. Deceit and dishonesty erode goodwill. Yes, talk of anarchy and transformation are hard to deal with. They were for me. Blew my mind when I first heard about those things. Yet, how can Occupy be a great rampway for revolution by practicing deceit and hiding what it really is. Isn't that the politicians game that we hate so much?

It is chickenshit to suggest Occupy hide their true agenda to spare the truth from the poor little masses. Of course, the poor little masses will make up their own minds. I for one have a lot more faith in the power of TRUTH to win people over than I do in falsehoods.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Its not about hiding a true agenda. I think when you talk about some of the other things like ending Capitalism, etc there are even divides within Occupy about those issues. If we are divided on core issues do you honestly think people are going to jump on board the movement?

Its not about falsehoods or hiding agendas. Its about tackling core issues like getting outside money out of politics so we CAN have honest discussions about some of the more divisive issues. If we go with the thought of its either EVERYTHING or nothing then we won't get anywhere. The root of all the problems is money. We fix that we will be on the road to fixing everything else.

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 11 years ago

Yes, I honestly think TRUTH is more important than delusion, even if it makes things harder to swallow and divides people on core issues. I thought I made that point perfectly clear - I do not favor sugarcoating problems as a way to finding solutions.

oh...c'mon guys.....If we just get the money out of the broken political system, all will be hunky dory......

No! Getting the money out does nothing to get people to accept the truth - the system is rigged so that capitalists can exploit labor.

You can repeat the mantra of 'get the money out' all day and every day - but it amounts to a half truth - slightly similar to telling villagers to build houses with safer material after the volcano goes off as a way to make them feel safe living next to the volcano. The lesson here is ignore the true source of the problem at your own peril, or "it ain't the buildings, stupid, it's where your building them at."

Sure, it will make things easier to pass some socialist reform policies to stop the bleeding for a period of time....but make no mistake...at some point the robber barons will return....because that is the way the capitalist system is rigged.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

What is delusional about being practical and realistic? My point is that if we are trying to bring people on board the Occupy movement on issues that even we are split on you can't expect those things to happen. In fact it will probably turn people away.

Thats the problem with some Occupiers, some of us think we can go about achieving everything unrealistically. Its like saying to reach the top of a tall building we are some how going defy all logic and just teleport up there. But realistically the way up is either taking the stair or an elevator.

And I never said getting outside money out of politics would fix ALL the problems but it is the biggest and arguably THE most important step to achieving all of the other goals of Occupy and fixing the problems of this country.

Why do you think the public is so divided by lies and why there is so much misinformation out there? Its because of the money that is used by corporations and special interests to pay off politicians and officials to spread the bs. Take the money out and the truth begins to spread.

Of course the system is rigged. Its rigged because of THE MONEY!

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 11 years ago

You already made your point about trying to make the movement more appealing and attractive. And I still disagree with the ends justify the means approach you favor. Politicians use these tactics all the time to pander to the people. You should run for office, you would fit right in.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Nice attempt trying to paint me as someone im not. I don't see any politicians attempting to do what I just layed out. And you didn't really prove your point you just proved you're good at being passive aggressive.

Guess we will agree to disagree.

But I still don't see how you don't see how money and bribery is at the root of the problem. The fact that you don't seem interested in dealing with the problem says a lot.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 11 years ago

your words, "We can not achieve anything if we have this pompous attitude that we are beyond political".

Burns you that Occupy dares to stick to its principles and not sell out their image to pander to you, doesn't it? Oh, those pompous Occupy bastards, how dare they stay principled. If they would only engage in politics everything will be hunky dory...and then we can all have a coke and a smile and ....live happily ever after....

I will say it one last time. If your way is political reform, have at it. Transformation will require more than being political, it will require alternative solutions.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Occupy advertised itself as not being tied to any specific party. Which is a great thing. It did not advertise itself as not being political. Occupy absolutely is political.

If there are to many people in the movement like you that feel that we can achieve anything without showcasing any type of power electorally and not run Occupy candidates or something of that nature, yes I think this will become a toothless movement. Because..wait for it...MONEY. As long as the rich are able to bribe our political system they will always have the upper hand. In policy, media, everything.

And of course transformation will require more than just being political in the traditional sense. When have I said otherwise? I've been saying all this time Occupy should do both.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 11 years ago

You contradict yourself. You first say Occupy is pompous for being beyond political and now you tell me Occupy is absolutely political. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

from the front page, "Occupy Wall Street is a leaderless resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%. We are using the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic to achieve our ends and encourage the use of nonviolence to maximize the safety of all participants.This #ows movement empowers real people to create real change from the bottom up. We want to see a general assembly in every backyard, on every street corner because we don't need Wall Street and we don't need politicians to build a better society."

Final time, you want reform, have at it. Most will help you. I will certainly do what I can. But...wait for it....anarchism and transformation will not be pushed out just to please you or anyone else. This movement is inclusive, not exclusive. Your way and the anarchy way will just have to find a way to get along.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Jaded I think you completely misunderstood what I meant when I said "We can not achieve anything if we have this pompous attitude that we are beyond political".

When I said that I meant that Occupy can not just sit on the sidelines and pretend its to cool to not be involved in the political system even if its endgame is to completely change it. But you have to get involved to do so. Hence "beyond" political. So I did not contradict myself at all. It goes along with what i've been saying this whole time.

And you quoting the front page does nothing to counter what i've said. I completely agree with that quote. But no where does it say we don't get involved in the political system. When I said that quote I was referring to some of the people around here that says the movement should not get involved in voting or running candidates, etc.

Either you completely misunderstood the meaning of what I said or you're taking what I said out of context. There was nothing contradictory about anything i've said thus far. So...im not quite understanding what you're saying.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Thank you Jaded, I think.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 11 years ago

You have a way with words.

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 11 years ago

Very clearly and well put, JadedCitizen. This is a difficult concept to explain and that is why we are all arguing about it. However, when put like that I think it is clear that both reform and transformation are doable at the same time, but that transformation is paramount to this movement.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Fixing the root of the problem isn't transformative? So I guess because we can't do EVERYTHING at once we don't do anything?

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 11 years ago

I think we can work on both reform and transformation at the same time.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

I agree. But I think there are people in this movement that thinks its all or nothing. Meaning we don't achieve one thing we might as well not achieve anything.

Its okay to have successes in huge steps instead of attempting to fly and failing.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 11 years ago

Let's try not to be divisive and too critical of people we don't agree with, especially when everyone's argument has merit to some degree. And if we do divide and we don't work together, we will lose.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Of course.

Its important to be inclusive even when we disagree. Its also important to be realistic.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 11 years ago

Realistic works both ways. Those who push for short-term reform must realize how important the long-term transformation is and those who push for long-term transformation must realize how important short-term reform is.

[-] 2 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Ending the monetary bribery in our political system is not short term reform. Its the best way to lead to MORE long term transformative changes.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 11 years ago

It's definitely a good place to start.

[-] 2 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Thats all im saying. In no way am I saying Occupy shouldn't fight for anything else or have any other goals. But getting the money and corruption out of our political system is what ties everything together. Its the platform in which we really achieve monumental things.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 11 years ago

I agree that getting money out of politics is huge, maybe the number one issue. I also think we can do that without joining forces with any political party.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

I agree with that. But I do think that any party or organization that wants to join us should be able to. We need to be careful not to turn Occupy into a club.

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 11 years ago

Sure. My issue is some people think reform and transform mean the same thing.

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 11 years ago

Exactly. They are two different things that we can work on at the same time.

[-] -2 points by EuroBoy (4) 11 years ago

Sounds like you have nothing to do with Occupy. Why don't you start your own movement? OWS never was and never will be about playing into politics. It's the complete opposite!

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

I have been with Occupy since a few months after it had begun. And I think that the majority of Occupiers and the rest of the public agree that you can't just stand on the outside of the political system and expect Occupy to truly make any real change happen.

And from the very beginning Occupy made it clear that it is not part of any one political party. But Occupy NEVER said it wasn't here to affect politics or our political system. So either there were some false advertising going on or there are people that are trying to use word play to rewrite history.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 11 years ago

Founders vs members. Should be interesting, no?

[-] 2 points by RoughKarma (122) 11 years ago

Leaders who betray me through inaction. I am told "Love it or leave it." If I have "other" ideas, they are ridiculed and shouted down. Leaders who care more about perpetuating their ideology than fixing the social and economic injustices.

Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

We won't get fooled again.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 11 years ago

Not again. Never again. My family was the victim of an oligarchy in Hingham MA in 1636.

[-] 1 points by RoughKarma (122) 11 years ago

You do know that I was taking about OWS, right?

[-] 3 points by brightonsage (4494) 11 years ago

Yep, I got it. I was just pointing out everything new is old again. We have been here, and been here, and been here....

Getting a little sick of it but we still have to cope with it.

The issue is, was and will always be: governance. And the choice some want is yes or no. But most want the choice of good or bad.

Not much question that what we have is bad governance.

Is no governance a step up or a step down? This choice is available at every, every level, from OWS, to home owners associations, to school boards, to unions, to towns, to cities, to counties, to states to, countries and yes, regions or the planet. There are a zillion flavors to examine as potential models and rate according to criteria that may be considered.

Of course if you don't believe in truth, or science or logic or a process of thought and cause and effect there is little prospect for a convergence or a consensus. But that is what I believe is going on.

Organized crime is just another name for our current system which is an oligarchy. People with a vested interest in the continued control of much of the modern world by a relatively few crime families and they will defend it and subvert and oppose every effort to change it I see this subversion of efforts to find ways to fix that system on this site and I don't think it is my personal paranoia.

I have researched my family and was surprised to find this occurring that early in the history of European settlement of this continent. Small pox wasn't the only epidemic that they brought.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

Well said - so very well said. Some do not stop to consider - do not take the time to understand processes and what is going on right now to make their world function. This is being aware and this is true examination. This is understanding issues - a necessity prior to making change.

[-] 2 points by brightonsage (4494) 11 years ago

Different strokes, however they do determine the outcomes that affect all of our lives. You can claim your own facts but that doesn't make people believe them.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

That is the beauty of weighing an argument - look for opinion and look for facts. Are all opinions bad/good (?) depends on whether they are bound by facts. Are all facts good/bad (?) depends on how they are used. This is awareness the ability to examine fully.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 11 years ago

Couldn't disagree with you facts or your opinion about opinions.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

Thanks.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

If some of the founders false advertised in anyway then they are going to find themselves in the less than 1% of the 99%.

[-] 2 points by brightonsage (4494) 11 years ago

I had started keeping a rogues list of those who are more in love with the problems than with the solutions.

People in love with the problems are never alone, but always lonely.

[-] 0 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Smart move. It would be nice to know who these fringe minority are compared to the rest of the practical Occupiers that actually want to accomplish real tangible things.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

From my seven month, once a week trips to NYC to take part in Occupy protests, organizing, and reaching out, I believe most of the Occupiers would regard you as the "fringe." And among those that would view you this way are some of the brightest and best educated youths in this country.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Please explain how I am fringe. I have always railed against any violence or any talk of "over throwing the government". If you are going to make statements like that you really should give examples as to why I belong in this category.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

I did not mean to be obnoxious. Rather I was just trying to say that your views are in the minority from most all of the people that I know in OWS that are working hard to see this movement succeed. I am also not asking you to change your views, i am just stating what I believe to be a fact.

I know people that are approaching this from a political level during the day, and from a street level at night, waiting for people to get out of jail, arranging bail, organizing protests, etc. Some of these people have been educated in some of the best schools in this country, and even abroad as well. So i guess what i am trying to say is what you call the "fringe," and the "practical Occupiers," are often one in the same people, as they know this struggle has to be fought at every level possible.That's all.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

You misunderstand who I am calling fringe. I think the overwhelming majority of the people in Occupy and at the rallies are NOT fringe. I believe in what we stand for(even though I think we need to message better and have a simple core message to easily bring in more people).

When I refer to fringe im referring to the small amounts of people that condone violence and want to abolish government as a whole with no desire to fix it. By no means am I referring to the majority (the real 99%).

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

OK, we can agree again on the term "fringe," as I believe that we should never condone violence either. I think we should understand it though, as some people have been so hurt by this corrupt system, they are as angry as hell.

This is the quandary for OWS. How much do you give up in your goals, or demands to make yourself more attractive to the more conservative mainstream, that you so desparately need on your side? The answer as far as I can see is less and less as we help more, and more people educate themselves to the big corrupt picture, and how it has worked so detrimentally for most of us.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

That is exactly the types of questions we should be asking ourselves within the movement. And not be afraid to admit to mistakes or flaws so we can grow.

I agree with your conclusion about the conservative mainstream since the right continues to become more far right. But I do believe there are tons of people out there that consider themselves Democrats, Independents and even moderate Republicans that we can bring to our side if we go about it the right way while doing more to control our PR and confronting the lies and false context some media outlets try to paint the Occupy movement in.

If we have the truth on our side and the structure to get that truth out there we will get the public completely on our side while being able to call out the corrupt media that protect a corrupt political system.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

Yes, i too think we can reach out into the middle-right on the political spectrum for support. The key i believe, and as i have said many times here is not to make this a partisan struggle, even though most people here have voted democratic, and still do. The issues we face are not about left-right, or dems-repubs..... they are about right and wrong, and what has been going on in this country for the past thirty years or more is terribly wrong. Even some of the posters here that I regard highly disagree with me on this tactic.

One of our initiatives has to be to get people off of the corrupt corporate-owned news media, and onto other sources of information. It is difficult to control our PR if we don't achieve this goal. Even though the CO media is absent in its duties, you can usually get letter to the editor in the newspapers, as I have found out quite a long time ago. As valuable as this forum is, i often think that many of the threads here would be more effective in newspapers as LTTEditor, as they would reach out to the people we need on our side.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

I couldn't agree more. And i've had people on this site disagree with me as well on the point that this needs to be not left vs right but right vs wrong. I believe we can get a lot of moderate Republicans on board with the right core messaging but I think alot of the far right are to far gone. But they aren't needed. As long as we get the vast majority on our side we will be fine.

I also agree with you about the media. Its going to be a hard challenge to win but I believe if anyone can do it its Occupy.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

OK, see ya.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

Good, i was surprised how long it got to be, and figured i might be telling your more than you wanted to know. lol I was also introduced to Phil Rockstroh recently who is a well know political writer, and maybe philosopher. googable He had a essay up on the OWS site here several months ago. I told him that i needed a dictionary when I read it. Both him and his wife laughed, and she said, her too. There were other people who wanted to talk to him, so I didn't talk much to him. I did end up talking to his wife most of the time. She was into migratory birds as an interest, but she did not know about the bird that they tracked that flew from Alaska to New Zealand, non-stop..over 7,000 miles. She is a real sweet-heart, and we got on really well.

This link below is a CSpan interview with Chris Hedges who covered the up-risings in Eastern Europe. I remember him saying that it is impossible to predict how long these things will take. I think it was in Germany, yes, where he was with a group of people that were saying that maybe within a year, we will be able to travel across the border. That night, the wall came down. I also remember a caller asking him something like, "what can an older dispensable man do to see that his indispensable granddaughter grows up in a better world?"

Hedges has also been arrested on Wall St. (never met him though) at an OWS sit-in, and he was part of a team that won the Pullitzer Prize at the NY Times. It is three hours long, but it is well worth watching. I highly recommend it. I do not usually watch things that come 'recommmended' to me because of my recalcitrant nature, ;-) but I made an exception here, and I am glad i did.

I'm going to watch it for an hour, then hit the rack. Good Night

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zotYU21qcU

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Hopefully Occupy with have a Chris Hedges moment. Interesting stories.

And i'll definitely be checking out the video. Thanks.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

I take much better care of myself once I realized I was not indestructible, thanks. I'll let you catch up with my long-winded response. ;-)

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

LOL it was a very informative long winded response. I like hearing peoples stories of their experiences at the rallies and all the interesting people they meet.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

I had to respond here. Thank You, but I do understand that people have other obligations.... work, raising a family, etc., and not too long ago i had some real health issues that would have prevented me from paricipating in the movement like I can now, so i am celebrating the time that I can put into it. I always feel physically tired when I come home, as i am usually up in the city 8-14 hours with another 3 hours traveling back and forth, but I feel rejuvenated in spirit after being with those mostly young, bright, optimistic people.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Absolutely. You have to do what you can. And I understand that people have other obligations in life and it makes it harder for some to support the movement in terms of rallies, etc as much as they like.

Hope your health issues improve. :)

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

No I do not believe we will ever get anyone on the far right on our side either, nor would we want to! lol Like you said though, we don't need them. I would like to see political discourse greatly improve in this country, and for that to happen, we as a people have to reject other people that spew out vile political dialogue. These people, even if they espouse like-minded views should not be celebrated as they are now. It is difficult, even for me at times, not to get down in the gutter with them, but i do try not to. I never initiate it though.

I have enjoyed our exchanges which went into the wee hours of this morning, and will respond to the next one, if there is one there, but it is a beautiful day here, and I want to get out to enjoy it, so i will pick it up tonight again.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 11 years ago

Likewise. We need more people like you on the forum. But more importantly we need more people like you involved in the movement.

Good talking to you.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

Thank you for speaking up for the much troll maligned youth.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

You're welcome. I sometimes feel like Papa Bear when I do. :-)

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

Nothing wrong with defending our kids. {:-]) They are the future and often times can see more clearly as they have not been bombarded with BS as long as us elders.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 11 years ago

That was very humble of you, and it was very true too. I gotta practice my growling now.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

I imagine that growl is already pretty impressive. No humility required - but thanks for extending the compliment.