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Forum Post: Occupy Your Homes. Pay For It And You'll Have No Problem.

Posted 12 years ago on Jan. 14, 2012, 9:49 p.m. EST by DependentClass (19)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

What's so hard to understand? You borrow money. You buy something with it. To get someone to lend you the money, you agree upfront that if you stop paying, they can take the house. You stop paying. They take the house. Nothing is a surprise. But now you want to squat because it's a bad bank that lent the money?

You want to occupy? Pay for it, don't steal it. Then, you can occupy all you like.

266 Comments

266 Comments


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[-] 3 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 12 years ago

Based on a true story:

Borrower: "I'd like to pre-qualify for a mortgage. I have to add that I've never gone through this process before, so I'd sure appreciate your help and any input you might be able to offer""

Loan originator: "Why certainly! Sit right down!"

Borrower: "Here's my employment history and all you'll need to check my credit"

Loan originator: "We won't need any of that! Here's the application. You just write down whatever you want then I'll go over the app with you. Don't worry about anything on the app that you're not sure about or don't know. Just put whatever you want to write down. They're not really checking any of these details. You seem like an honest person. We're supposed to make affirmative action loans to disadvantaged folks and so details don't matter too much, really"

Borrower: "Well, lets see...I just moved here from back east when I started my new job last month. I looked at some houses in a new development in Maracopa. Beautiful homes - stucco with tile roofs. Even a pool! Someone said they sell for $300,000, but I only knock down about $70,000 a year"

Loan originator: "Don't be too concerned about that. I'm pretty confident we'll be able to get you into that beautiful home you want"

Borrower: "That would be just great! Let me know as soon as you can."

*10 days later*

Loan originator: " Hello, this is Countrywide Mortgage. You've been approved for your loan of $300,000. We can issue a check in yours and the realty company's name as soon as you come in with the sales agreement. Isn't that great?

Borrower: "Wait! Whoa! I need to know what my payments are going to be and for how long, just for starters. What's the interest rate?"

Loan originator: "OK. That's something that perfectly understandable and you're smart to ask those questions. The interest rate is variable, however it's been just rock-steady for so long and really, I don't see that changing. So there's nothing to really be concerned about as far as what your payment will be over the life of this loan. You're wise to buy a home that's only going to increase in value over time, even though it DOES SEEM like a good deal of money now. You'll be glad you did this in a couple of years."

Borrower: "It almost sounds too good to be true! I'll get with my realtor and get this thing rolling."

Never give a sucker an even break!

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[-] 3 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

you really don't get it at all ... do you ?..... the over whelming majority of the movement here.... don't have home loans....

and we are NOT concerned for ourselves.... (not like you greedy bankers) .... we are concerned for our parents and grand parents... who have had to refinance to pay for medical bills....

and are concerned for our children... and their children... who may never even have a chance to buy a house...

and believe it or not we are concerned for the honest bankers who are heading to bankruptcy themselves ... WAKE UP ... and help us

[-] -2 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

The last two words in your post, "help us." We have at the tune of $15 TRILLION in debt to help you. Help yourself now.

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[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

FU you're the crybaby.... "they won't pay their loans" ... hahahaha .... welcome to business in the real world ... dumb a**

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[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

It isn't a "movement", that was always just wild aspiration.

Doubtful. I've heard the same bitching about student loans from our supposed best and brightest. It's the same theme of a debt culture of dummies.

If you worry about younger people getting homes, then you should oppose the squatting. Let the market clear, end the squatting. End the government trying to prop up prices. Stop preventing younger people from getting the bargains the market would give them. It's wrong to use policy to protect the equity of older people; it just makes younger people fund it when they buy.

You wake up. You worry about older people? They worry about how stupid you are. Find the oldest person you can and have them explain debt to you.

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

I'm probably the oldest person I know... ass-hole.... you and your kind make me ashamed of what this once great nation has become

[-] 0 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

Its because of a failed liberal agenda.

[-] -3 points by WooHoo (15) 12 years ago

There's some world class irony right there. You're ashamed. Ha! I'm incredulous. Incredulous just like the 'movement' was when they were confronted with the fact that camping didn't result in sweeping societal change.

[+] -4 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Well then what can we say about you if you've made it that far in life, but still somehow can't seem to figure it out even the basics of debt? Not much.

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

the basics of debt... is... If you get too greedy... it will all collapse .... just watch...

[-] 3 points by 4TheHumanSocietyProject (504) 12 years ago

Hey hey hey! Guess what! I do not want to kill anyone... This is a free country right? Well I do not want to fund the government because they use my money to kill people! Why can I not do that??? Is it because you do not care about anything but your house? Do you even care about the people that die everyday because you probably take to much and give to little? What do you care about?

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

people need shelter

[-] -3 points by slammersworldisback (-217) 12 years ago

Need is not a value you can exchange with others.....if you need shelter you must provide something in exchange for it......it used to be simply the labor of gathering materials and constructing the shelter...now, society is different...more specialized....now you must exchange labor for money and money for shelter....that is how you meet the need for shelter...

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

needs will be sought after

[-] -3 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Sure, if I just paid more taxes, blah, blah, blah. Keep moving, panhandler.

[-] 1 points by 4TheHumanSocietyProject (504) 12 years ago

Please do not judge me. I did not judge you. Can you tell me why we even kill people? Can you tell me why you need money?

[+] -4 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Self-defense, dear child.

We need money to buy things. Using money is more efficient than running around town trying to find a mechanic to fix your car that happens to need his taxes done.

I'm guessing by your question that you can't be over 12. Shouldn't you be in bed?

[-] 1 points by 4TheHumanSocietyProject (504) 12 years ago

I am sorry but we do not need money for anything. We need food , we need clean air and we need water. We do not need money... Everything after that is a want. We need the idea of money. passing judgement on someone is not self defense but is what study considers as a illness. I am not 12 and even if I was 12 what scientific evidence would you have to back your idea that I needed to be in bed at 11:00pm? Is that a idea your parents taught you to be a good time to sleep? Who taught you that? Has the person that taught you that done any research what so ever on the sleep patterns of the human body? Do you care about science?

[-] 3 points by brightonsage (4494) 12 years ago

Even that is not true. Many people have been suckered into foreclosure who were making their payments by mortgage holders, banks or loan servicers who were supposed to be restructuring their loans who told them to stop making the payments and foreclosed and some foreclosed even though the loan was current.

I am sure it won't fit the narrative you are trying to spin but you should follow your friendly Google and find these cases for your own edification.

Otherwise people will think you are grinding an axe instead passing on valid information.

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[-] -1 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

That's urban legend. Sure, it's a huge country and anecdotes exist. But pay your mortgage and watch how nothing happens.

Borrow money, pay it back. If you don't, collateral gets repossessed. No surprises, nothing complicated. Read it again if you need to; I know it's kinda shocking.

[-] 2 points by brightonsage (4494) 12 years ago

That's they way it was supposed to work. It didn't and that is why Bank of America and some of the others are paying multi-hundred million dollar fines. Mozilo of Country wide personally paid a fine. "Angelo R. Mozilo, who as head of home-loan giant Countrywide was at the center of the housing boom and bust, agreed Friday to pay a record fine as part of a $73-million settlement of a government fraud lawsuit over the lender's near-collapse." and "B of A's Countrywide to Pay Massive $335M Fine for Alleged Discriminatory Lending Practices"

There is a couple of "anecdotes" for you. I am sure you can find all you need to stop embarrassing yourself.

It is well documented. And there are more on the way.

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

The discrimination thing was a shake-down. Like with cars, mortgages involve bargaining and therefore different pricing for different people. Our crazy race obsessed culture makes companies vulnerable. If people can be shown to have done below average, that's grounds. Look up the definition of average, think about blacks for a minute in a non-fantasy realistic way. Half of the people get below average deals.

The fines you mention aren't massive, they're nothing. You misunderstand the scale of the mortgage business and the race-based politics behind a suit like that.

It isn't just the way it's supposed to work, it's the way it does work. Borrow money, pay it back. If you don't, collateral gets repossessed. No surprises, nothing complicated. Borrowing money is a choice. How much you borrow and for what are other choices. Retards shouldn't sign things.

[-] 3 points by brightonsage (4494) 12 years ago

They were the largest there has ever been. Sort of a good conduct medal?

"Ongoing settlement talks between state attorneys general, the White House, banks and mortgage companies, and federal fraud regulators have reportedly led to a proposed $20 billion settlement that would absolve the financial institutions of further civil and criminal liability stemming from alleged fraudulent foreclosure practices.

Read more here: http://www.theolympian.com/2011/12/22/1922360/government-needs-to-take-it-slow.html#storylink=cpy

Stay tuned.

[-] -3 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

But that's the point, to grad a headline. It's race-based politics and little more.

The other issue is just politicians looking to effect transfer payments from the industry. It's true, they short-cut some foreclosure processes. They did. But the hilarious part about the indignant politicians is that they're defending squatters in default against banks that violated technicalities.

But there's greater damage. Politicians are creating a squatter nation. They're delaying the eventual sorting out of the housing market and that's delaying economic recovery. They're also trying to prop up prices, which is simply protecting the equity of older people at the expense of younger buyers that enter the market. So, our own government is taking generational sides protecting boomer equity and screwing some 27 year old young family out of a lower price. That's wrong.

[-] 3 points by brightonsage (4494) 12 years ago

So here is some more.

(MoneyWatch) COMMENTARY Revelations last year that many of the nation's biggest banks were illegally evicting homeowners by "robo-signing" foreclosure documents triggered a flurry of federal and state investigations. Now, as American Banker reports, the scandal may be widening to another common type of consumer debt -- credit cards: JPMorgan Chase & Co. has quietly ceased filing lawsuits to collect consumer debts around the nation, dismissing in-house attorneys and virtually shutting down a collections machine that as recently as nine months ago was racking up hundreds of millions of dollars in monthly judgments....Robo-signing, or the high-volume production of signed legal documents, has been a key element of the governmental and media foreclosure reviews. Chase's current pullback raises at least the possibility that at least some banks may have documentation problems in other business lines.

What is a meaningful fine? What would it take to get banks to actually behave properly?> And what would it take to get people to recognize that it wasn't ALL the home buyers fault? And what would it take to expose the bigotry of some people who are blaming minorities who qualified for premium loans, but were switched to sub-prime loans by the processors because they got higher commissions for them?

Choirboys all.

[-] -1 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Here's a secret: those little dears being foreclosure upon are in default.

Think too about what that means. They've stopped paying entirely, real estate taxes too. They're truly squatting. But they're the "victims". It's all pretty absurd. 60 minutes did a piece about the topic and not once mentioned that they're lead character was a deadbeat.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

quote..."They're delaying the eventual sorting out of the housing market and that's delaying economic recovery...."

who's economic recovery .... your's ?

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

No, the nation's. Politicians are gumming up the housing market. That's stalling a working through of who lives where and what losses need to be taken. Young people rightly hesitate to buy when they perceive that the government is price fixing and medicating the market. It's also wrong generationally to take sides.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

WRONG..... provide the needed capital to get small business working again... and people will be able to afford to pay their notes....

but big banks don't want that... they want to kill the middle class... at all our expense .. including your mid-sized bank...

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Squatting is a problem. People don't know what housing should go for given the backlog of foreclosures and government meddling. The market needs to clear, the losses need to be recognized, the pretending has to stop. Then it's easier for the economy to recover.

So, banks won't lend out of a social agenda that they hate the middle class. Ok, now it's time for your meds.

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

you don't read do you..... banks are not lending to small business ....

and... it's not about hate (even though they do) .... it's about business... the big banks are greedy ... they want it all ... they want to buy your bank for pennies .... and with a weak middle class... the economy will completely crash... and then they can own everything....

[-] -3 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Home-"owners" were greedy. Just get in! Prices are going up! I'm gonna make a bunch, like that other guy! Maybe I can flip this one! I can only buy the car I covet by borrowing against my house, where do I sign! I have a right to things I don't pay for because you lent me too much! All forms of greed.

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

yes... some & many were ... so ? I wouldn't lend to someone I knew couldn't pay it back ... why would you ?

because it was a sure deal... we will foreclose when they default ... we will bundle and sell the mortgages to some fool ... and we will make profit ....

no ?

this is all about fixing the system ... and the compassion of those in power

[-] -3 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

There was too much capital slogging around that made very risky loans. It was a big bet that prices wouldn't fall.

Wanna fix the system? Wanna be compassionate? Then tell someone younger about borrowing responsibly. Explain to them the stuff that was considered so friggin obvious only a generation ago that you didn't even think you had to say it.

The most stunning part of all this is just how far the debt culture ran and the complete abdication of responsibility. It's mortgages and student loans. Borrowers are in complete disbelief about repayment and consequences and their role in creating the situation.

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

".....Borrowers are in complete disbelief about repayment and consequences and their role in creating the situation. .....

agreed ... some are.... but so are the ....

banks in complete disbelief about consequences and their role in creating the situation. .....

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

don't misuse the word retard

retard means slow

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[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 12 years ago

Yes. And if you have a crappy mortgage, get the hell out of there. That is part of the deal too.

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[-] 2 points by WakeUpWorldTV (58) 12 years ago

Tell that to the Banks who stole $17.7 Trillion.

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

Stole $17.7 Trillion from whom? It has to exist in someone hands before it can be "stolen" by someone else.

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

That article says that the $7.77 trillion came from The Fed-NOT the Treasury Department.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

money inflates through fractional loaning

a bank holding $10,000

can loan out that money multiple times

creating $100,000 in unpaid loans

I'm not sure that answers this question

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

I'm asking WUW and no, it didn't.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

WUW?

[-] -1 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Nice rationalization. But still, if you pay for what you buy, it becomes yours and then you can "occupy" all you want. It's pretty straightforward. It's been this way for time eternal, really, it has been.

[-] 2 points by 4TheHumanSocietyProject (504) 12 years ago

Nothing is yours at all. Someone could come up and rob you at gun point. What will you do then? No one will bail you out? you cannot get a loan. What happens if you get raped on the side of the street because some guy grew up in a poverty stricken community and had no education, couldnt find his way so he stole and got drunk every day...

[-] 1 points by Rael (176) 12 years ago

Umm, yea, that is relevant to the discussion at hand...

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

no.... it's the REAL point of what the 1% don't get... capitalism w/o compassion fails ...

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

ideally

one should want to live in a society where people are educated

[-] 1 points by 4TheHumanSocietyProject (504) 12 years ago

Well that's what I a talking about.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

good idea

[-] 1 points by 4TheHumanSocietyProject (504) 12 years ago

Jacque Fresco?

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Because all things are possible doesn't mean all things are equally possible or that because of uncertainty, we abandon making ourselves resilient to what may come. Debt reduces resilience. Pretty obvious, except lately.

[-] 2 points by 4TheHumanSocietyProject (504) 12 years ago

Pretty obvious, except lately... that sounds contradicting. We have big problems in this world. I understand that some occupiers may not display the answers you seek. However, the current system we have will not work. We have out grown this government and monetary system. Science is the way to go. All the other stuff is unnecessary.

[-] -3 points by WooHoo (15) 12 years ago

Seek help.

[-] 1 points by 4TheHumanSocietyProject (504) 12 years ago

Please specify why you mean seek help?

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

unless one cannot pay for shelter

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Then you should get to work on that. If you want to live off your neighbor, go ahead and make your case.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

or shelter is over priced

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Stop with the nonsense. The country has countless options for housing. COUNTLESS. Houses, apartments, locations, sizes, quality, amenities. Don't you know that? If you can't find something that suits you, IT'S ABOUT YOU. Again, enough with the it's someone else's fault, it's someone else's responsibility.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

it's about everyone

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

You have an odd circle of acquaintances. LOL.

Come on, slugger. Wanna call yourself a grown up? Figure a few things out for yourself.

[-] 2 points by Gilbert (8) 12 years ago

Are you aware lenders would lend money to people fully knowing they would default. In fact they expected them to default because they would made a profit of it. I would recommend watching the documentary Inside Job, it does a great job (no pun intended) connecting the dots and explaining why we are in the situation we are in today.

[-] 1 points by Rael (176) 12 years ago

Did they do it at gunpoint or did people take loans they could not afford?

[-] -3 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

If you want a house, it's yours when you pay for it. Truly, it ain't that complicated. If you borrow, understand the terms. Wow, that too, not too complicated. Also if you borrow, the more you borrow, the harder it might be to pay it back. I feel like we're making progress. Can you understand any of this or are we back to stop paying and it becomes yours?

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

"Compound interest, is the most powerful force in the universe."

------Albert Einstein--------

[-] -3 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Mass stupidity is pretty powerful too. LOL.

In terms of borrowing money, we have the dumbest generation the country has ever produced.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

True-----------"mass stupidity" elected Bush----------------twice!!!

Followed by the election of teabaggers. VERY stupid, indeed.

Prices have never been higher, and wages are effectively lower.

Shall we all sell our children, and the elderly?

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Wow, good one.... he he. Typical fleabagger response.

No, no need to sell anyone. Just check to see if your IQ is above 70 before you borrow money. If so, use that IQ just a little and you'll be fine.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

And those below 70, should what?

Live under a bridge?

Yours was a typical, head in the sand, nonresponse.

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Be looked after by someone more responsible and not signing mortgage documents. Sadly, we had people above 70 merely acting under 70 when they "bought" a house.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

They had equitable jobs, when they signed.

Also consider, the value of the home dropped 50 to 75%.

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

When you sign, you might just might want to think about what might happen if you lose that job. Truly, I can't believe needing to type even the simple shit like that.

You should consider too how most people haven't lost their jobs. 9% UNemployment means 91%employment.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

You do type a lot shit.

You shouldn't do that.

You completely skipped that whole 75% drop and ignored stagnant or falling wages, and still found a way to be insulting.

One other simple fact you missed, is that in a capitalist economy, stagnation is death sentence.

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

No, I didn't. There's almost nothing that's happened to anyone that wouldn't have been made better or the bad thing been made less likely with just a little more sense about debt.

By-the-way, housing isn't off 50%-75%. It's about 1/3, of course, with some exceptions. Just because housing is off, doesn't force default. Default is either a choice itself or the result of something happening. But, again, back to debt basics, less debt would've increased resilience. Real fucking complicated, huh?

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

Yes, you did type shit, you said so. Denial much?

Someone in your position must surely find fucking complicated. Huh?

Denying facts must be a side line for you.

I HAVE a house that lost 75%-----------------Statistical BS is meaningless to me. Completely and totally, meaningless.

The home I'm living in, lost close to 50%.

You really do need to stop typing shit.

It reflects badly upon you.

[-] -1 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

If your house went down 75%, you're especially dumb. Congratulations, you win a prize.

There's no provision in the Constitution guaranteeing home appreciation.

The loss you're balling over is a young family's gain. Now they can buy homes at a lower multiple of income and that's good news for the future. The home bubble was always going to end badly. The silver lining is there for the next generation, if they aren't as dumb as this one.

[-] 2 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 12 years ago

"The silver lining is there for the next generation, if they aren't as dumb as this one." The creative destruction that you describe is something that i thought was a great thing until I heard that banks are destroying their inventories so as to stop home price depreciation. I think even Greenspan has suggested that banks demolish their inventories of homes. If the houses stay on the market at depreciated value than that is a good thing, but if they destroy those properties, then that tells me that all the assumptions and theories underpinning capitalism are just sweet little nothings that the investor class tells the others in the society to rationalize their existence.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

Au contraire.

You've proven it's you who are dumb for believing in, and posting illusions.

So great and holy predictor of everything......................................When's the next "bubble" going to burst?

Dates and exact time please.

[-] 1 points by Gilbert (8) 12 years ago

Actually, i very much agree that people need to live within their means. I never said i did not. Why are you arguing otherwise? My argument is that lenders would sell lies to home buyers and convince them they could afford a house with part time jobs. They would do so because they had nothing to lose if they defaulted. Do you understand why i disagree with you when you accuse people who borrowed money then foreclosed thieves? If you dont i HIGHLY recommend you watch the award winning documentary Inside Job

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

There needs to be at least some personal responsibility. It is not difficult by any means to figure out for yourself if you can fit a certain monthly payment into your budget. Why would you rely on a salesman to tell you if you can afford something or not?

[-] 1 points by Gilbert (8) 12 years ago

Living the "American Dream" is universal dream in this country, even the poor and working class. Hell if every lender kept telling me it was affordable to do so, i sure as hell would jump on the bandwagon. Wouldn't you?

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

No, I wouldn't. I can add a handful of numbers together and then compare it to my monthly income.

If you go to a BMW dealership and start looking around the salesman is going to tell you that you can afford it without even knowing anything about you. Are people really going to believe it?

[-] 1 points by Gilbert (8) 12 years ago

To me, a car is not the same as having a roof over your head. The promise of having a roof over my family is more important than a luxury car. You cant compare the two.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

The point is that people should be able to add their monthly expenses together and see if it is more or less than their monthly income before they buy a house. If they are having a difficult time doing it, they can try to find a 3rd grader or a smart 2nd grader.

[-] 1 points by Gilbert (8) 12 years ago

Lol i love your humor. I get your point though.

[-] 1 points by Gilbert (8) 12 years ago

Here is a syspnosis. "Academy Award winner Matt Damon narrates this unflinching look at the deep-rooted corruption that has left millions of middle-class Americans jobless and homeless as the major corporations get bailed out while paying millions in bonuses."

here a link to the trailer. Its extremely educational and i feel you will highly benefit from it. Watch it with your wife and kids tonight should be a nice bonding moment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzrBurlJUNk

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[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

The likelihood of a lender benefiting from foreclose is very small. People that sell things, sell things. People that buy things, if they insist on being utter hapless retards, should give power of attorney to the state, I guess. If you insist on trying to function as a complete incompetent, housing is just one of your problems.

The other hilarious thing is the no-money down or cash-out refi crowd. They too squeal about losing "their" home. No economic stake doesn't lessen the sense of ownership, as bizarre as that is.

[-] 1 points by Gilbert (8) 12 years ago

Unfortunately you are misinformed. YEs 30 years ago that was true but not today. Lenders are no longer at risk if a person fails to pay. This video beautifully explains how the housing market works today. I strongly urge you to watch it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-S6rZ18KKk

[-] -3 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

No, it really doesn't explain much of anything. Lenders may sell positions to another lender, but a lender exists nonetheless. Here's how to tell if there's a lender: look for a loan. If the loan recovers less than the principal amount of the loan plus interest, the lender has a loss. I strongly encourage you to consider the obvious.

[-] 1 points by Gilbert (8) 12 years ago

You said, "The likelihood of a lender benefiting from foreclose is very small." The video explains how that statement is false. It demonstrates how lenders, investment banks nor the rating agencies did not* cared if the borrowers could pay back. In doing so they would benefit from foreclosures because they would acquire zero losses. Explain to me how it does not explain much of anything. I have considered the obvious, that is why i occupy. Consider facts for once.

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Some underwriting lenders didn't incur losses if they sold the position to, guess what, another lender. But as long as you have a loan, you have a lender.

If you borrow money and fail to pay it back, no where, no where in the loan agreement does it say it's now yours. Pay your bills and occupy all you want. Otherwise, it's just a grand self-serving rationalization.

[-] 1 points by Gilbert (8) 12 years ago

Before i keep participating in this "discussion" i want to personally ask you a question. Can you envision anything that would change your mind on this topic?

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Gilbert. It isn't a matter of changing one's mind, it's a matter of the facts and one's view of personal responsibility. I really don't see myself adopting the view that it's reasonable to be hapless trigs that blow in the breeze and whatever comes is someone else's doing.

[-] 1 points by Gilbert (8) 12 years ago

Lenders would sell the mortgages to investment banks, investment banks would sell their CDO's to investors, and the rating agencies that were paid by the investment banks (conflict of interest if u ask me) had no liability if their rating of CDO's proved wrong. Those are the facts. Can you not see the obvious and connect the dots here? The people at fault here are not the millions of Americans who can no longer afford to make payments, but the corrupt system that put them in that position. How can you possibly still call them thieves after presented with these facts? Do you even understand my argument? These people who have no other option but to foreclose are victims. These families don't deserve to be left out in the cold at night because of predatory lending that lenders practice. You must be one hell of an ignorant, cold heart, asshole if you cannot sympathize with these people at all given the facts i just presented to you. This conversation is over. Its a shame how people can be incredibly ignorant in this day of age.

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Here's another bit of obvious for you: when you invest, even if you're the forth person in line to acquire the investment, you're still the investor. We can't and will never have a system where investors can be reckless sign-anything-buy-anything rubes without consequences.

Something else you don't understand: rating agencies are just giving an opinion. They aren't guarantors of the underlying investments. Everyone in investing knows that. The early "reforms" forced more liability on them and they simply refused to issue a rating. As a result, Ford Credit had a failed debt issuance. Policymakers immediately suspended the rule as a failure and something that was born out of ignorance of how markets work.

Same goes for individuals. Sorry, but you can't he a hapless idiot and expect everything to be cool in your life. You're also ignorant of how many people had NO EQUITY in "their" homes. We have "own" and "rent". So, even when people with no equity got foreclosed, it connoted them losing something and the political tears did flow. Oh the humanity, they lost "their" home, but in reality they were little more than renters with a call option of the underlying value.

You're all emotion and no brain. Now they're left in the cold and it's dark. Bullshit. Go back to renting. If you can't afford rent, then it's especially clear that you're just a squatter; you couldn't have paid ANY mortgage.

Borrowing money is a choice. How much you borrow is a choice. What you buy with it is a choice. The future is uncertain, use your fucking imagination a little. If you stop paying for what you bought, you might just lose what you bought. School's out, the remedial session has concluded.

[-] 2 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 12 years ago

T R O L L

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[-] -3 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Gosh, how is this possible when you're the 99%? Gosh, seems to be quite a lot of us for only 1%. LOL.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 12 years ago

There are some of the 99% that are so dumb they will shill for the guys taking them to the cleaners. That is why the rest of us are trying to protect them from themselves. Poor stupid babies.

[-] -3 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

More OWS self-importantance and condescension. But let it sink in. You have protests in NYC, the biggest city in the country, claiming to be the 99% and hardly anyone shows other than some emotionally needy 20-somethings. That's pretty funny.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 12 years ago

There, there, sweetie. Don't hurt yourself any more.

[-] 1 points by dreamingforward (394) from Gothenburg, NE 12 years ago

Hmmm. Did the original settlers and colonists pay for their property?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

This whole post is nothing but tag-team troll stupidity.

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[-] 1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 12 years ago

Burp!...But our bankers and politicians steal and get away with it, surely that makes it OK...

Let's join the big party..

[-] 1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 12 years ago

Follow the leader..

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 12 years ago

and do nothing about the fraud initiated by lending institutions like Countrywide . . .

why don't you do something useful - like occupy a casket . . .

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[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 12 years ago

I like how the narcissistic friends of banksters over-simplify problems when convenient ....

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[-] 1 points by dreamingforward (394) from Gothenburg, NE 12 years ago

Was the land the home is built on acquired justly?

[-] 1 points by Riley2011 (110) from New Britain, CT 12 years ago

Owning an apartment, water and heat included- The new American dream

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Heh, you start where you can. Better then borrow and pretend and then have no idea what went wrong.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

Are you kidding with this post? How many millions of Americans have lost their jobs in the past 4 years? How high has the unemployment rate been? How much have property values dropped across this country? How much have wages declined over the past decade? How much have property taxes increased? Forget all the bad loans that were made. Go ahead, blame the people for trying to have a slice of the American dream.

[-] 0 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

I don't blame anyone. All DependentClass and I agree on is that if you sign a legally binding contract to do something and then you don't, the bank has every right to execute whatever the contract said. No one is at blame for what losing a job but you still lose it and default on the payment nonetheless.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

buying a home should not be left to the chance of future employment

[-] 1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

How would you recommend it be done?

[-] -2 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

Why not? You sign knowing that if, for any reason, you can't pay you have to face the consequences. Have you ever been forced to buy something or take out a loan? Has anyone you've ever cared about ever been taken hostage and threatened with injury if you didn't take out a loan? No? Then you have nothing to complain about.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

one can't own property without taking a loan

[-] 0 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

You can buy the damn house with cash. Its not impossible and is a much more responsible thing to do. You aren't saying anything.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

I don't have that money

[-] -1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

You can rent the house until you've saved the money up. Most people don't actually own their house for 30 years at least. It would be the same thing with renting the house while you save the money. This way if you can't make the payment your credit isn't destroyed along with all the other negatives of defaulting on your loan payments.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

buying a house is all i need a credit rating for

the credit rating system itself seem like an invention to keep a few scorers employed in an economy where jobs have to be made up

[-] -1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

I don't see your point. But if you need to take a loan out for a car then you need a credit rating as well but I can see you won't even consider outside ideas. So I don't even know why I'm trying.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

Renting a house, more often than not, costs more per month than buying it.

[-] 0 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

So is it always someone else's fault? That doesn't seem very responsible to me.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

I'm just describing a basic fact.

One that's especially true in entry to mid level housing.

It's you who seems to want to place blame.

[-] 1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

I din't say anything about blame. All I said is when you sign a legally binding contract to make payments and you don't, for ANY reason, then you are responsible.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

Oh, excuse me, you said "fault".

I might believe you if the signers had ANY real input into writing that contract.

In truth, they don't.

[-] 1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

Yes you're right I'm sorry. I worded it poorly. Has any one made you sign a contract? I didn't think so. You have as long as you want to read over the damn contract and if you don't like it you can negotiate or go somewhere else.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

If you want the home?

You are very much "forced" to sign whatever contract is in front of you.

There is NO negotiating any of the important terms of that contract.

There is no "elsewhere".

All those contracts are almost identical, cookie cutter contracts.

You know this if you've ever bought a house..

[-] -1 points by Gimmeyours (-16) 12 years ago

Besides, here a flash, you're buying a fucking house, if you don't understand something, find someone to explain it to you. It's just the wholesale abdication of responsibility taking.

The left just can't bring itself to acknowledge that going around in life as a complete hapless idiot is a bad idea.

[-] -1 points by Gimmeyours (-16) 12 years ago

But they signed it. Every dope crying about their debts or why they can't keep what they bought even thought they've stopped paying for it, will find their name at the bottom of the loan agreement.

People knew the house, they knew the dollar amounts, they knew their downpayment, they could read the interest amount, they knew that non-payment meant foreclosure, they knew how much they made, they knew how much they had left in savings, they knew they could lose their job, they knew that job loss would make paying tougher, but yet it's all just a big surprise.

You simply can't be this ignorant and expect life to be OK. Government can protect you somewhat from others, but really can't protect you from yourself and your own complete incompetence.

For many of these people it was simply their own greed and ignorance that caused their problems.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

Please read the rest of what I posted, before you come in and post the same repetitious insulting narrow view, we've heard before.

It's not accurately descriptive, nor is it useful................................

[-] -3 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

Then go live with mom or something until you get the money to buy a house. I don't really care. The prices are the prices and you can't do much about that except for what OWS is doing now(I.e. bitching and moaning). If you can't pay then that is your problem.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

You're the one "pissing and moaning".

I'm trying to explain that things are not as simple as you've stated.

You're using fortune cookie logic.

[-] -1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

And all I'm saying is if you sign to pay something and you don't pay then you face the consequences.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

All I'm saying is the crashed economy wasn't the homeowners fault.........................!!!!!!!

Most "normal folks", don't consider the side effects of "bubble economics", in their day to day activities.

They realize, they have no effective way to control those "bursting bubbles".

They just try and live their lives.............................. and get caught in the burst.

A lot of bubbles "burst" in the crash.

You wish to place all blame and responsibility for the fix, squarely on their shoulders.

In the end, I'm saying that's wrong of you.

[-] 0 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

I didn't say it was anyone's fault for the bubbles. All I am saying is that how we live and you have to be responsible for what you promise someone. Or have we as a society gotten away from that?

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

Most of those people would have been happily paying those very bills,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,If the bubble hadn't burst.

They didn't sign those papers with he express desire to be foreclosed upon.

They genuinely believed it would all work out.

They were told by agents and realtors, that it would work out.

They were taught all their lives, that if you don't go for the ring, you don't get the prize.

Then.......................The "bubbles burst."

It was someone else that broke faith.

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[-] -3 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

So you pay a little more but at least the bank doesn't own you life until you've paid off the loan.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

No, but the landlord does.

[-] -1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

What's your point?

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

As long a wages remain artificially low, you're still owned.

[-] -2 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

Like I said above you don't have to take a loan or rent a house. No one forces you to do so, Therefore, you can't complain can you?

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

What is this "force" thing you're so hung up on.

Are you Jedi?

If you live, you need a place to do so.

[-] 0 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

Honestly I feel for all those people and understand that a lot of negative factors were at work, but if banks couldn't recover something (ie the house) on people who stop paying mortgages the rest of us who actually do pay the mortgage will suffer with higher interest rates to offset the losses. In the end it would be harder for people to buy homes because losses make loans more expensive and more selective.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

That's fine, Mooks. But to denigrate people for losing their homes is just wrong. There are people really suffering in this country. To point fingers and be all angry toward them is just ill. It is one of the most painful times they will ever have in their lives.

In the town I live in, and I don't know if this is true everywhere, if a home is foreclosed upon the bank is exempt from paying the property tax. So, even if someone had no mortgage and was foreclosed upon for not paying the property tax, the bank would take the house, and then, not have to pay the property tax.

[-] 0 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

Oh I am not pointing fingers at those who lost their homes, I am just not pointing my fingers at the banks either. People inherently don't trust car salesman, and for good reason. They should have the same caution when someone is selling them a mortgage.

I am not sure about the second part. Around me each individual town has its own mil rates and property tax rules but it is my understanding that when a house is foreclosed because property taxes aren't paid, it is foreclosed on by the city who the taxes are owed to, not the bank.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

More so than blaming the banks it was greed, overall, at the root of the real estate crisis.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

as housing prices increased

banks made a greater loan percentage from the rising numbers

without doing anymore work

[-] -2 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

they were irresponsible when they agreed to these loans. the buyers are not blameless. your thought process needs to be more than one dimensional.

[-] -2 points by boyFriday (-67) 12 years ago

they bought more than they could afford...not smart.. did not read fine print...not real smart..signed on the dotted line..not good. banks gave risky loans too fast...not smart.. both made bad decisions.. bad outcome...deal with it.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

property is more expensive than many can afford

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

And those people still manage to put roofs over their heads. "Owning" property is not required.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

nope

but everyone gotta work to pay fief

[-] 0 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

And?

[-] -2 points by boyFriday (-67) 12 years ago

bad choices...not our fault...I don't feel sorry for these people. I bought something modest..I could afford..

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

people need shelter

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

A tarp is "shelter". A trailer is shelter. An apartment is shelter. A home is shelter, the big ones AND the small ones.

What people NEED and what people WANT are often two different things.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

I want people have and have not are two different things

[-] -2 points by boyFriday (-67) 12 years ago

one should live within ones means. I live in Yonkers....Not Scarsdale.. I couldn't afford Scarsdale...not rocket science.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

then one is tied up to land

[-] -2 points by DiogenesTruth (108) 12 years ago

The big error people make is thinking their house is an investment. everyone is better off with declining home values.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

not those who own the property

[-] -2 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

word up boy...stupid people...making irresponsible choices.. The responsible are expected to pay.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

loose <> to increased prices

people pay for what they decide to pay

or what ever the market will bear

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

My husband lost his job 3 months ago. Our property value has tanked. His wages have increased over the past decade. So have our property taxes.

And you know what? NONE of these things were caused or affected by a "bad loan". The LAST person I'd even think to blame would be the people who sold us our home!!!! To me that's as insane as blaming the guy who sold us our cars! Or our washer and dryer!

And you know what else, we still HAVE our house and are still making the payments because we PLANNED AHEAD for a rainy day. We put money in savings-even a little bit-every time we could. We paid off ALL of our debts and tore up our credit cards BEFORE we moved into this house. We were blessed to have an employer who gave us a small, but incredibly welcomed severance package, and we BOTH have developed skills that we've used to earn extra "side" money that is for the time being no longer "side" money. OH...and the entire time we've STILL given to charity and done all we can for those who are in worse shape than we are.

And here's the thing about me that I think pisses you off the most. People like me...if we lose our house and end up hurting or suffering financially for a while....we will STILL believe in the American Dream and we will claw our way back up that slope AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN. Because we do not believe in defeat or being victims or allowing ANYONE else to tell us what our dreams are or should be or that those dreams are "dead". WE have never given people like you the ability to control our dreams OR our actions and we will fight you even to the death if we have to.

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

...."And here's the thing about me that I think pisses you off the most. '

justhefacts, why do you think that pisses any of us off?

we All believe in the American Dream... that's what this is all about... trying to save it.... do you not think that 99% of the people camping out in the occupations don't have other places they can stay... We are doing this to get the message heard.... and to build constituency...

We are the same.... truely.... we want the dream... we want freedom... both individual freedom and economic freedom...

[-] -3 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

I was talking specifically to beautifulworld, but all OWS in general whose soul desire is to be the champion of "victims". If there aren't any victims, then you can't so nobly fight for them. Which means that OWS is far more about "you" than it is about anyone else-including "the poor".

People like that regularly posts negative stats (and exaggerates them too) but refuse to acknowledge the positive ones, or even those that demonstrate that your negative ones aren't the whole picture. You only wants to talk about the "truth" if it paints those in the corporate or financial markets as dark and selfish and cruel. And you don't care how many innocent people you crush along the way to vanquishing your supposed "foe".

You don't represent the 99%. Maybe 20% if I'm generous. But stop pretending that you speak for everyone you think you do.

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

hmmm... well... many different people make up 99% of the population... personally... I would rather be in the casino sharpening my counting... or on a beach soaking up the sun...than spending all my time reading zillions of pages.... OWS... is about salvation... imo.... it is our only chance to make things right in our near future.... otherwise the American Dream is history for most.... I get angry at those that come here preaching & belittling ... and slinging garbage as though they know everything ... when is reality they might as well be blind.... I havn't seen you post anything like that... so I'm not sure why you group ypourself with DC ??... anyway I wish you the best justhefacts ... :)

[-] -3 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

I grouped myself with DC's comments in this thread-not he/she as a person. I agree with the fact that PEOPLE should not be allowed to "buy stuff on credit" (including mortgages) unless they can prove they UNDERSTAND those 2nd grade principles.

Of course "sharks" are going to attack the weak swimmers, but weak swimmers shouldn't be in the water in the first place-even if there were no sharks.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

I gave several other reasons for foreclosures besides the bad loans that were made. That was actually the last I gave as an afterthought.

I hope things work out for you and your husband. If his unemployment continues and you go through your savings and you have to foreclose would you want people to talk about you as if you are a low life?

[-] -3 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

I hope things work for you...dont drink the kool aid..don't trade freedom for what's behind door # 3.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

I've already tasted the poison and I'm spitting it out.

[-] -3 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

what poison?

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

The poison of right wing, fear mongering reactionaries.

[-] -3 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

Believe that you have that reversed. I think left wing anxiety is abundantly manifest in current reactionary discourse.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

No. Liberals are progressive. Conservatives are reactionary.

[-] -3 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

Progressives are the most reactionary. Conservatives are economically literate people, who know the unemployment rate decrease is due to people giving up looking for work. Conservatives do not make sweeping statements/ assumptions re. capitalism, wall street etc. But that is not how the Progressive Propaganda machine operates. Progressives, # 1 goals to perpetuate the regime of the False Messiah.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

Yeah. Damn that unemployment rate going down. Don't want that Barack Obama winning a second term. Conservatives are very transparent.

[-] -3 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

And conservatives outnumber those liberals 2-1 in this country. Which OWS needs to get through their heads, and stop offending and judging those conservatives or they'll never have a "majority" of people on their side.

[-] -3 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

I don't think they care about the majority opinion. They just want to cause anarchy and chaos...until they can help get Obama reelected in November....Hopefully they fail.

[-] -3 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

I don't give a rat's rear end about how people talk about me. Why should I? If their opinion that I am a low-life is true-then it's true. If it's not, it's not. YOU talk about people like me and DC as if we are already "low lifes" because we don't agree with you, what makes you any different than the people who might talk about me as a low life if I lose my house? Really? How are YOU any different? According to you, I'll just hear different voices trying to tell me who I am!

I appreciate, sincerely, your hope for us, but things WILL work out for my husband and myself AND our children. It's called life. They may not work out as I hope they do, but life won't end for us if we end up moving out of this house.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

You guys are the ones who come on here and hurl insults at us. Not vice versa.

And, things will work out for you and your family. I will keep you in my thoughts.

[-] -2 points by Kirby (104) 12 years ago

Who should pay the mortgage for a default?

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

Banks should take the hit for at least some of the loss in property value. How about in proportion to how much of the house is owned by the borrower, the borrower's equity, and how much of the house is still really owned by the bank? Is it fair that the banks make loans based on appraisals at one point in time and then all of the risk falls on the homeowner? Certainly the banks could sustain risk better than a single homeowner.

[-] -1 points by Kirby (104) 12 years ago

The banks had no risk. They sold the shit mortgages. The public took the risk. Ever heard of Fannie and Freddie?

[-] -2 points by oneAdam12 (-7) from Queens, NY 12 years ago

no I think it is a sensible explanation. don't purchase what you cant afford. even a child knows that.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

That is such a weak argument! They could afford their homes when they first bought them, duh.

[-] -1 points by oneAdam12 (-7) from Queens, NY 12 years ago

no they couldn't...they did not plan appropriately.. It is called financial irresponsibility. they did not read what they signed and agreed to.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

B.S. They didn't expect to lose their jobs in the Great Recession with 9 and 10% unemployment. They also didn't expect for their home values to drop an average of 30% and more in the areas where foreclosures are most prevalent. How do you plan for that kind of crap when the median wage in this country is $26,000 per year?

[-] -2 points by oneAdam12 (-7) from Queens, NY 12 years ago

That is nonsense...fiction.. You have created a story line to match your ows goals...and justify your hate and jealousy. Good luck...Think before you trade your freedom and liberty for what's behind door # 3.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

You think freedom and liberty is a government controlled by the wealthy and corporations that does nothing to promote the general welfare of the American people. I don't.

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

NOTHING? The government in this country (which according to you is controlled by the wealthy and corporations) has done NOTHING to promote the general welfare of the American people? NOTHING?

You have the freedom and the liberty to take or leave this country and the "control" of it's government. And yet the general welfare that exists in America seems to be worth enough to keep you here. Weird.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

You take things very literally, justthefacts. That shows simpleness.

[-] -2 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

It shows HONESTY. I shouldn't have to read between the lines or make assumptions in order to understand what you're saying. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Otherwise you have no credibility.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

Simple. If you can't understand hyperbole, I can't help you.

[-] -2 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

People who use exaggerated statements or claims are the reason this movement will NEVER appeal to honest, real, Americans. We have terms for that behavior-it's called RHETORIC by intellectuals. Regular people just call it LYING.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

No. It's called a figure of speech.

[-] -2 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

"You think freedom and liberty is a government controlled by the wealthy and corporations that does nothing to promote the general welfare of the American people. I don't."

Is this the common figure of speech that only simpletons would misunderstand that you are talking about? Because then doesn't it make the whole OWS sentiment nothing but hyperbole?

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

Right. The word "nothing" in that sentence is a figure of speech, a hyperbole. No one but yourself would take me literally.

[-] -2 points by oneAdam12 (-7) from Queens, NY 12 years ago

You are not making any sense... what r u talking about?

[-] -3 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

You plan for that kind of crap by reading HISTORY and realizing that recessions (and depressions) have happened REPEATEDLY in this country. You plan for it by asking yourself-how long could we afford this house if something happened and I lost my job? (You know...like accidents, death of a spouse, long term illness-the normal, regular, events that happen in life-not JUST a freak of nature economic earthquake)

The SAME questions you ask yourself when you move from a smaller, cheaper apartment into a larger, more expensive apartment. And losing your job is just as likely to end up with you moving out of an APARTMENT as it is a house.

The median wage in this country is $26,000. So a SMART median wage EARNER should make his/her purchases based on their current income, JUST LIKE the SMART higher wage earners do-and NOT on what they hope or think or expect to earn in the future! Someone who is SMART who earns $26,000 a year, and either knows basic math or owns a calculator, should be able to tell you what kind of payment they can or cannot afford AND how much economic turbulence it would take to upset their ability to pay...JUST LIKE smart "richer" people should.

Explain to me why a drop in my home's value matters at all in this discussion. The drop in value doesn't RAISE my house payment.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

A drop in the value of your home decreases your net worth. It also makes it difficult to sell your home to avoid foreclosure.

And, I don't care how smart a person is, where can you find a decent place to live that has decent schools for your kids on $26,000/year?

I guess everyone is not as smart as you, justthefacts. You seem to have all the answers. Maybe everyone should move to Appalachia to find cheap rent.

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[-] -2 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

SMART individuals who are making $26,000 a year don't HAVE children because they cannot afford to feed and shelter those children. SMART individuals who marry other SMART individuals who also make $26,000 CAN find a nice, modest place with decent schools for their kids because they are making $52,000 a year in combined income.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

Oh. The American Dream. I see.

[+] -4 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Gosh, it's just perplexing isn't it? Is this the dumbest generation ever?

Let's go remedial. Borrowing money is a choice. How much you borrow and what you buy is also a choice. The future has uncertainty. When buying shit and borrowing money, one thinks, gosh, a little about those things.

Funny your comment about people trying to "have a slice of the American dream". Sure, bankers are greedy, but never, oh never, people buying shit they can't afford or can't afford if anything goes wrong simply because they want it. That's greed.

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

well... honestly... back in the old days... we saved up our money to buy or build a house with cash... we didn't need to borrow anything....

but now because there are so many leaches out here trying to make a buck for not doing any real work ... just simply getting their greedy paws in the middle of it all...like you greedy money lenders.... that now no one can afford to buy a house w/o a 30 yr mortgage.... whose the real ass-holes... here ?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

property was cheaper

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

that's right.... and it was cheaper because... we didn't need to base our whole domestic economy on real estate.... and that's only because we are trying to fill the voids of jobs .... ever since Reagan.. we have been falsely (socialistic-ally controlling) boosting the construction related businesses in efforts to keep people employed... same thing for the healthcare industries...

it's all about jobs.... and things were actually moving forward... better than expected... until the greedy & powerful made their attack... now we need to recover.... but that takes capital to rebuild the middle class system.... and that capital is not available... mainly due to fear...and brain-washed political ideas...

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

there is a fear of inflation if more money is circulated

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

well .... there will certainly be inflation when all the businesses close...

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

remember the upper class do not buy simple goods... they already have them... the impoverished don't buy because they can't... only the middle class supports our retail and light manufacturing industries.... when the middle class completely falls into poverty... which it will if we don't start producing again.... most business in this country will fail.... which will also bring down most of the banks... why they don't see that ... is insanity ...

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

who would be able to afford anything?

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

that's right... our banks either need to take some of those windfalls... and start investing into small business... or we need to build our own bank..which we can do... as the 99%... or we can forget about dollar bills...they will be worthless..... and so will gold ...

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

change sounds painful

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

change sounds painfull

[-] -2 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

Wages were lower.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

proportionally wages have not kept up with inflation

and housing prices have rising higher than inflation

http://www.jparsons.net/housingbubble/

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

So, greedy people make you go into debt, in fact, too much debt. That's pretty funny. You can delay buying a house, buy something more modest or simply rent. And even within renting you have many choices. Yeah, bad bankers.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

why don't you bankers invest in the economy... like investing into small business ??? you know why?... because real estate is the sure bet.... easy pickings..... cowards

[-] -2 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

Where did DC say he was a banker? I missed that...

[-] 0 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

he didn't ... but it's pretty obvious he either is one or supports the greedy ones... the honest bankers understand and don't talk like him...

[-] -3 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

Pretty obvious? Why? Because he doesn't bow down to YOUR opinion on things?

I'm not a banker, nor do I even personally know any. But I don't support greed-either from bankers or people who think they deserve something they can't afford.

DC is talking common sense. Old fashioned values. Integrity. Why does that annoy the hell out of OWS so much?

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

"....Why does that annoy the hell out of OWS so much?

because he is telling us stupid simple shit we learned in 2nd grade..... and he is not listening to us... who have been studying this stuff for decades

[-] -3 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

It is stupid simple shit. But either people never learned the stupid simple shit, OR they chose to ignore it-which has led to even more stupid, more complex shit.

If you've studied this stuff for decades, you should be capable of representing the truth accurately.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

I'm working on it.... but through software.... there are many others here who know economics better than I.... and they speak much better than I do...

and btw.... people know they borrowed money... and do want to pay it... but it is also desparation ... and they feel fucked ... and they should ...they were fucked.... how many lost their jobs... dreams ... and homes ? all for nothing they did...

[-] -2 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

SOME people did yes. But not ALL people. Those who were abused by the system I feel great sympathy for. Those who ALLOWED the system to abuse them I feel for...just not with great sympathy. Those who tried to screw the system and lost and are screaming to high heaven that they were victims...make me SICK.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

justhefacts, it's not over yet... that was just round one.... more is to come if we don't fix it

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

I'm not saying it does not need to be fixed. I AGREE that the system needs fixing. I AGREE that there are certain "rich" people who do abuse and take advantage of "the system". But our LAWMAKERS are the ones who are responsible-either by direct manipulation or being so freaking stupid that they have no idea how it even works.

But that doesn't mean that ALL "rich" are evil or corrupt and it doesn't mean that ALL "poor" are totally innocent victims. I want the LAWS of this country to CHANGE so that in the future, people on BOTH ends of the spectrum who take advantage of everyone else for their OWN greedy purposes CAN and WILL be punished for their actions.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

I like that.... that sounds like you're a 99%er ;)

[-] -3 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

I swear, we need a national night in to explain to the country even the simplest concepts of borrowing money. It could televised across all channels with mandatory viewership. They'd cover the simple obvious shit that somehow this generation has utterly no clue about. Let's just start over kinda stuff.

Session 1: Borrowing money is a choice. Session 2: Borrowed money requires repayment Session 3: Borrowing money reduces future resilience. Etc.

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

Save your breath DC. They either are not capable of "getting it" or won't admit that they DO get it, because then they'd have to admit they are lying to forward their own cause rather than the actual truth.

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

It's just scary what they tell their kids. There's simply no connection between choices and outcomes. It's all exogenous and watch out for bankers, they're bad, very bad.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

people need shelter

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Wow, there's a brainstorm. So, head on out there and make it happen. Countless ways exist to meet your needs. Just don't count borrowing money, defaulting and then squatting as one of them.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

i'm getting that minimum wage job now

oh wait

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

I'm sure your parents look forward to you moving out of the basement.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

Most of them could afford the loans just fine before they lost their jobs, had their home values and 401k values crash, their wages decline, their property taxes rise, etc.

[-] -1 points by Kirby (104) 12 years ago

Lots of people bit off way more than they could chew. Prices were rising obscenely fast. People made dipshit decisions. Mortgage brokers got creative. People got greedy.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

I'll agree with you there. Many people got overly greedy. If I see one more McMansion, I'll spew. But, not everyone. Many people suffering foreclosure were not greedy, they were just good people who had unfortunate circumstances.

[+] -5 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Let's take a poll. Who thinks losing a job is impossible? Not me. Gosh, here's one: take that into consideration and understand what happens if you lose the bet. The house doesn't just become yours. Shocker.

Again, let's go back to the remedial session. Borrowing money is a choice. How much borrowed is a choice too. What you buy with borrowed money is a choice. Contemplating repayment is what grown-up non-retards do. Just seems this generation forgot even the simple shit.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

Your condescension is just unbelievable. Go hurl insults at someone else.

[-] -2 points by Kirby (104) 12 years ago

Facts suck. You should change your moniker to uglyworld.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

Yes. 10% unemployment. Home prices declining nationwide by 30%. Wages declining by 7% in the last decade. Those facts suck. I agree.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

I bet it's really closer to 20% unemployment

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

I know, right? Yet, I state the fact as it is reported and still get insults hurled at me. We need to keep at it, BradB.

[-] -3 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

A dose of the obvious. Painful as it is for the debt dummies that want someone to blame, it is what it is.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

"You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity."

Logic of the Empire - Robert A. Heinlein

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

the gambling house a;ways takes it cut

as housing prices increased

banks made a greater loan percentage from the rising numbers

without doing anymore work

[-] -2 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

bingo...seems like they do not want to claim any responsibility for entering into mortgages.... i know housing market went bust...but borrowers need to be held accountable for some of this mess.

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

We'll never have a society where it's OK to be that dumb.

As a valuable reform, I suggest setting up a Bureau of Big Decisions. You simply won't be allowed to borrow money without an official stamp from your government nanny. Truly, this is the dumbest generation in the country's history.

[-] -2 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

I LOVE IT!!! That would solve ALL of the problems! Can you imagine the peace and quiet we'd have! I'm joking...but at the same time...it's so freaking brilliant I can't believe it hasn't already been done!!!

But the OWS crowd won't go for that. They don't want the government controlling THEM-they want the government controlling everyone ELSE.

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Absolutely. They have bizarre ideas about the nature of rights. Take healthcare. They blather about a "right" to healthcare mindless of how that creates a healthcare negative right on someone else.

Rights are what government leaves for you to figure out for yourself, not what it agrees to take from someone else on your behalf. Remedial civics is right up there with remedial finance for the OWSers.

[-] -2 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

Good to hear from someone telling the truth. They will probably disable or mess up your ID/ ability to post, soon. Reason, truth or any opposition is not tolerated by the Orwellian OWS types. Party on...Have a great day!

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Thanks. It is the truth and it's a truth that was absolutely a part of basic common sense just a generation ago. The inability to comprehend even the simplest aspects of borrowing money is all over this thread. It's the same thing if you bring up student loans.

[-] -2 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

Yeah...It is horrifying to think if the masses of youth have been indoctrinated with this sort of 'no responsibility, you owe me', entitlement sort of thinking. We need to get Obama out in November..big time.

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 12 years ago

"You want to occupy? Pay for it, don't steal it. Then, you can occupy all you like."

I did and so I am :-)

[-] 0 points by USCitizenVoter (720) 12 years ago

Not one thing in life is free.

[-] -1 points by libtardsSuck (-69) 12 years ago

If people never tried to purchase for then they could afford then this would not have happened

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[-] -1 points by karenpoore (902) 12 years ago

Hey brainwashed ... WAKE UP!

[-] -1 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

Brilliant post. So informative. LOL.

[-] -2 points by boyFriday (-67) 12 years ago

sound pretty straight forward to me. thanks for the concise points...re the mortgage crisis. These folks need to take some personal responsibility for poor decisions. far to easy to blame everyone else...get's us nowhere too.

[-] -2 points by DependentClass (19) 12 years ago

And importantly also to teach their kids, nephews and anyone younger. There's something here worth passing on. Blaming as they do misses the reality and it misses the opportunity to have a next generation not as stupid as the current one.