Forum Post: Occupy Wall street needs to take the next step!
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 20, 2011, 12:16 p.m. EST by Indepat
(924)
from Minneola, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
OWS needs to take this to the next level.
It’s time for OWS formalize into an actual organization, with a single, concise message, and with concrete leadership.
OWS needs to stick to the actual problem, the root cause, which is that the ruling elite, the 1%, has purchased direct influence over all government affairs at the rest of our expense. All other issues are merely symptoms of this reality.
Stay clear of Republican and democratic issues and ideals, and Liberal vs. Conservative arguments. This can only hurt our cause. These artificial categories only serve to divide and distract us from what’s really going on here. Remember, the 99% includes people of all walks of life.
Be in it for the long haul, because to force real change will take a considerable amount of time and effort.
Take the fight to Washington. All groups around the nation need to come together and organize a march on Washington, a march that would eclipse all marches that have come before.
If we don’t do these things soon then I fear OWS will lose momentum. We need to capitalize on this now, and we need to ensure that the ball keeps rolling in the right direction. If we stand still, if we don’t move forward then we will fall behind.
In my opinion, the heart of the issue is campaign finance reform. We need to have all political campaigns funded by the taxpayers from a separate fund. An amount would be designated say: 50 million dollars or 25 or whatever is a reasonable amount to actually travel and give speeches, and provide security for the candidates etc. And that NO OTHER MONEY be used, and that any contribution from ANY private donor big or small be made unlawful. AND REMOVE SPECIAL INTEREST LOBBIES from Washington. THEN we can begin to re-center American Democracy around the electoral process and the actual WILL of the people. Right now, politicians tell their "constituents" what they want to hear and make all of the promises they need to make, and then, newly elected (or re-elected) arrive in Washington and are immediately cornered and overwhelmed by all of the special interests that actually funded their campaign and dictate policy, and these politicians no longer connect "doing the will of the people" with "being a successful politician." Campaign financing and the lobbyists who OWN Washington, and every politician on both sides of the so-called “aisle” in their back pockets: THIS is the straw that is stirring this corrupt drink right now. Our leaders no longer need to act in the interests of the people they serve. Moreover, it is actually political suicide for them to do so. THAT, I feel, is a good "starting point" for one of this beautiful and exhilarating movement's central demands. REFORM CAMPAIGN FINANCE and ELIMINATE LOBBYISTS from Washington now...
nor should they be allowed to spend there own money except on room and board, and all political advertizing should be banned, except people who choose to wear shirts, sticker their cars or post on their lawns/out windows. No posting on public land.
spread it :)
http://wh.gov/2zR
Same message, different means.
Yes, I agree that that is the crux of the problem, but we cannot trust them to fix the problem, that would be like trusting criminals to police their own illegal activities. we must demand and fight for change, we need to take back our government.
This post is about 30 days too late my friend....a leaderless revolutionary movement without a leader is a rudderless ship adrift on the sea. All successful revolutions have had a leader and this is why OWS will and has failed. Saying your gonna change things is a far cry from actually doing it. Talk minus action equal zero.
You are exactly correct, about the rudderless ship, about actually getting something done, everything but that it's too late. There is still time, but that window is closing fast. This thing is in great danger of failing. And if it does fail it will be a great opportunity lost. There is a real issue here, the money in Washington, something everyone can get behind, but if some one doesn't take the bulls by the horn, it won't matter.
OWS would get WAY more support from everyone if they took the protest to where it really matters....Washington...hanging out in a park in NYC doesn't help people connect the dots that it's Washington that really is the problem. Wall Street is only part of the problem and not the part that will change unless changes come from Washington.
Yes, that is number 5 on my list. But first this thing needs leadership and to formally organize, and it needs to set forth a clear and concise message, vision and goals, and all of this must be apolitical in nature. Once we start to go political it will open up the door for either party to take over both sides of the argument, permanently fracturing this thing, which is what they want. To stop this there needs to the single message and it needs to be controlled.
But it doesn't look like this is going to happen. If you ask me, I'd be willing to bet that this thing will become the Democrats Tea Party, just another propaganda tool in their arsenal.
But yes, Washington is where the actual problem is. Can't blame Wall Street for acting in it's own best interest.
Very important steps indeed! We cannot not fix our governmental system without removing the money that corrupts & subverts the work that politicians are theoretically there to do.
I would add that we need to create some kind of way to circumvent the conflict of interests that we are seeing within the FDA, Federal Reserve and really every major arm of our of government. Lobbyists & former employees of major corporations who are appointed to high governmental positions should not be allowed to impact public policy at the expense of the people/earth!
Yes, I absolutely agree. I guess just saying, "money out of Washington" is too simplistic. It has to be an entire elimination of the direct influence that the ruling elite have over our government. The revolving door is definitely one.
One logical conclusion here is the tax revenue used directly or indirectly by each city to support OWS... If one teacher or firefighter or peace officer looses their job due to cutbacks from diminishing tax revenue in the "O" cities then OWS is doing a disservice to that city... Which flies in the face of the principals of a moral society. Which you are all here to uphold. Moving the party to DC will create a fresh media event [ keeping OWS on the radar ] and will relieve any city services now in place to support OWS in all of the major cities - You all now and are living the financial meltdown... OWS simply does not have the luxury to use the public money in this way. Collectively OWS relocation into DC [ not sure about this ] would be taping federal money... peace AtomicZ...
OWS needs to take the next step
Bring America Back to the People
Our country has been governed for too many years by corporate greed and the rich. Lobbyist spend millions on Congress to influence legislation and to use the Middle Class to shell out the cash. Let us change that. Let us Bring America Back to the People.
Occupy Wall Street should seek representatives, the average American, living in every city, town, community and street to organize and fight to win back America. Here are the steps.
FIRST: Let the first move be to demand that Congress make it illegal to be a Lobbyist for any corporation or commercial interest. The local community members of OccupyWallStreet would send a petition to their local Congressman telling them to create and pass legislation banning lobbyists. If the Congressman fails to move on this or vote on such a bill, the local people would file an immediate petition for a recall vote to remove the Congressman from office. If the members of Congress will not help the average person, then he/she does not belong in office.
The only exception would be for non-profit groups such as the Multiple Sclerosis Foundation or the American Association of the Deaf-Blind or the American Foundation for Disabled Children, to name a few. If corporations want to donate and support these groups with millions of dollars let them.
SECOND: Corporations would no longer be exempt from taxes. Every corporation in the U.S. would pay a tax based on the percentage of their profit. Any Congressman not in support of this measure would face an immediate recall petition. Any Corporation that wishes to do business in the U.S. will pay taxes no exceptions, even if they are foreign owned. If the average Middle Class family pays 25% tax rate then corporations making over $1,000,000 in profits would pay 50% tax rate.
THIRD: Members of Congress shall be banned for life from working for any corporation that has a government contract or hold any stock or interest in that corporation. Penalty for violating this ban would be loss of all Government benefits and minimum 25 years in jail.
FOURTH: Congress shall have benefits no greater then the average government worker. Benefits will end when that member of Congress fails to get re-elected or retires. Only those Congressmen in good standing for 20 years shall be granted life time pension and benefits.
FIFTH:
The FCC will mandate both local, state wide and national free access for candidates to appear on TV and radio. The FCC will set times, length of the program. Candidates may not accept funding from corporations.
Some stuff I agree with others not so much, but that's what this is about.
Don't think it would be constitutional to outlaw lobbyists. But we should regulate them better, and this regulating process should be done by some outside entity. Congress has proven time and time again, they are unable and unwilling to police their own activities.
I agree they have to close the loop holes, but I think stopping, or at l;east severely curbing the money flow in Washington would achieve this. As with 1, an outside entity would have to police this.
I love this one. Yes, members of congress should never, ever have the ability to get a job in an industry that they are, or were, in a position to influence.
I'm not so worried about their benefits, at least the ones that are on the table. I think we need to focus on the ones that are under the table.
I love the 5th one as well.
These should be added to an overall strategy whose sole purpose is to get the money, and the direct influence it purchases, out of Washington.
The internet is a valuable tool for political discussions, allowing large numbers of people to exchange ideas, as we are doing right here. It might appear that it could also be used for decision making, i.e., voting, as thevoiceofthepeople proposes. But, using the internet for voting would be even more dangerous than e-voting.
The possibilities for large scale cheating with e-voting machines are unlimited, and corrupting the results of votes cast via the internet would be even easier. The argument that "If we can make a secure purchase on Amazon.com, we can'' have secure elections using the internet, may seem persuasive at first, but it doesn't stand up under closer examination. When you make a purchase via the internet, you can verify directly that it went thru correctly: you know that you received the item you ordered, and you know that your credit card was charged with the amount you paid. If either of these is not correct, you will discover that easily and can take action. But when you vote electronically, either via an e-voting system, or the internet, you have no way to verify that your vote was correctly tabulated. The internet is worse because, in addition to computer fraud, the passage of data over the internet offers additional ways to corrupt the results.
In order to ensure that our elections produce valid results, we need to hold them openly, in a way that every step following the casting of votes is transparent to observers representing divergent interests. This necessitates using paper ballots, marked manually, and counted, out in the open, by people--not by machines. For a more detailed discussion, see: http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~unger/articles/manualCount.html Steve Unger 10/26/11
The next step? That would be the ninth step. Make direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. So now you need to say your sorry and clean up all the messes you made and all the naive young college kids you've head screwed. Say you're wrong. Say you're sorry. That's your next step.
So according to you, the next step should be to do what we've always done, to cover our eyes and pretend that everything is okay.
My question to you is, do you really think everything is okay?
HERE's one option that would result in real change for real people on the ground . Let's go to DC -- 300,000 of us --
Intro: http://occupywallst.org/forum/our-turn/
Action: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/
Eventually, we are all going to have to go, hopefully in numbers that will let them know this is serious.
This is it. It's time to start amassing in DC.
So long as we can get the numbers. would hate to have this great rally call and only have several thousand show up. Like I've stated many times before, this thing needs to bet more organized so that we can mobilize in force and then march on Washington with numbers that will scare the crap out of them.
That is happening as we speak. Start packing your camping gear. It's time.
Good steps.
More stuff. There is some good reading here about the Citizens United decision.
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/22/in_landmark_campaign_finance_ruling_supreme
Check this out. Very pro - OccupyWallSt Don't know if its causal, or just coinciding views. http://www.democracynow.org/about
Help
This movement is a waste of time and doomed to fail.
Just keeping tabs on this one.
Just making sure this thing stays near the top
Thanks Indepat for trying to focus people’s attention on these issues. I agree with you that if OWS stays apolitical and concentrates on finding the root causes of the problems that have finally brought people to the streets – this movement could accomplish something. I believe most of the 99% are sick and tired of the partisan mud slinging and if OWS sidesteps partisan politics and fights for principles this movement will gain more support. And it’s going to take a huge portion of the 99% to reign in the moneyed interests in Washington. I’ll repost a list I posted a few days ago ( it got lost in the noise). I would like to see a discussion on these issues. I think they’re tied together and are the reason for some of our major problems – number one that the voices of the 99% are increasingly (especially after the last 30 years) being crowded out by powerful moneyed interests.
They are sick of it, but are also conditioned to think along those lines, so that when they devise solutions, these solutions are filtered through this bias.
I agree with everything you state, but I think we should focus just on 1 and 2. While I agree with the other stuff, I firmly believe that 1 and 2 gets to the root causes, 3-6 are just symptoms of the root problem. Get the money out of Washington and politicians will be forced to do what is in our own national interest, which 3-6 fall under. These issue can also be viewed as leaning ne way or the other which we need to avoid to keep the 99% intact. Because if we don't remain intact we can't achieve anything.
I agree, all six of those issues at once is a huge bite. Any one of those issues would require a tremendous amount of discussion to solve. That's why the first two issues I numbered 1 and 2. Without 1 and 2 done first we would never know how the majority of the people would like to solve the others. I wish OWS realized just how radical it would be to push forward on 1 and 2.
Not only is it too much, not only do we need to sty focused on a single issue, but I truly believe that if you take care of the root cause, then the symptoms will fix themselves. when you finally have representatives working for us instead of them, they'll be more inclined to make the right decision.
Although my dream would be to someday have a third party with something similar to the six items above as a platform to run for election on.. but that's probably a long way off.
One step at a time.
Maybe we should consolidate items 1 and 2 into a single statement, corruption in lobbying and campaign finance have to be taken on together...I think anyway.
Sure, yes, we need to stay focused on that, on ending, or at least curbing the flow of money.
Perhaps you and I and anyone else interested in this issue should repackage and keep re posting items 1 and 2 for discussion.
Yes, that could gain some momentum. But I think the real solution is for leadership to take control of this thing, then design an entire campaign around this cause. This thing needs organization, leadership, a clear message, vision and set of goals, and a strategy for achieving those goals. without that it on't matter. They have to set the tone.
aaaaaagggghhhhh
Where the hell is the leadership!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you don't take control over this thing, it will either be taken over by the parties or simply die. You have to do this now
The point should not be to occupy wall street; the point should be to SHUT IT DOWN. When strikers want to shut down a factory they form a picket line around it; similarly OWS should form a picket line around Wall Street and SHUT IT DOWN. Then things would really begin to happen. Otherwise OWS risks turning into a circus (there are already signs of this), and eventually fizzling.
I don't think so. Wall street is just a symbol, and it's also a symptom of the true problem, which is the money and the influence it buys, in Washington. We need to take the fight there.
resolve to create a government that will address their grievances
Hell yeah
”TOCSFAE” IS TOXIC TO THE BANKERS
Your declaration needs back up, a barrier, a friend! tocsfae is that.
From the beginning when our country was formed we face many challenges and many opposing views
Just like today however, the peoples voices have been silence by special interest groups as well as the over whelming power grab by the bankers. Your demands/petitions will never be heard or taken seriously unless lobbyist/corporate have bless it for greedy reasons or Co-Opt it.
It is time for a fair hearing!
Wouldn’t it be great if you can be heard, fairly and equally? Wouldn’t it be worth your time to know there is a petition list, worth signing rather then getting involved in so many other worthy causes? Can be a drain, especially knowing many of lists of issues will mostly not be look at or simply be voted downed.
It can also be time consuming.
This is were the 7’step plan an ever growing list known as the “TOCSFAE” doctrine helps just about every cause, the cause that helps almost all other causes should be supported. These step plans, solves many of the roots of all our problems we face.
Whether you have protested at the gas pump or you are an Occupier and Tea Partier, for that matter any protest mover, make your protest have meaning, give it the teeth it needs beyond the gas pump and over the protest lines.
This petition will be a notification to congress of things yet to come and to properly prepare.
As of January 2012 we the people
We will not take the abuse anymore and neither should they walk around with there heads in the sand.
We will begin the process of phase one
Your petition will go to congress, informing them you support The “TOCS FAE” Doctrine and so should they, by making preparations for receiving and forwarding income Tax mail. Your petition will also go to the top corporations letting them know of our intentions and they too should support and act on the doctrine by sending their taxes directly to congress. They should also be informed if our demands are not met, protests will be under way the likes they have never seen.
After this is achieved and we have broken the back of a few select Corporations we will move on to Step1 Taxes which may take months or years
Step1) Send your TAXES to a trusted congressman or congresswoman which maybe hard to find in your state. Make a Petition with your neighbors. Phone, email, fax your congress your list and intentions. Prepare your taxes, made out to the I.R.S check and envelope, and a stamp. Fit it in inside of a bigger envelope, onto which you should write congress address, preferably your state congress.
Example
Washington, DC 203 Cannon House Office Building Washington, DC 20515 Phone Number: (202) 225-2831
Have congress unwrap the envelopes, state you want your taxes to be mailed to the I.R.S
If you are asking yourself, what will this achieve first it can be used as a bargain chip however, congress cannot spend it or over take the fed reserve and banks system over night, nonetheless this will indeed give teeth/meat, back to congress. You should include a sign return receipt so as to show proof you paid your taxes.
For the rest Click http://inkrumguardians.webs.com/
click http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/tocsfae
Occupy funny pix http://inkrumguardians.webs.com/apps/blog/
This post is about 30 days too late my friend....a leaderless revolutionary movement without a leader is a rudderless ship adrift on the sea. All successful revolutions have had a leader and this is why OWS will and has failed. Saying your gonna change things is a far cry from actually doing it. Talk minus action equal zero.
I thought I already responded to this, but I guess it didn't register. I agree totally with everything you say, accept that it's too late. Although I will admit, the window is closing fast, and if someone doesn't get a hold of this thing soon, this thing will fails and a great opportunity will be lost.
I've a few thoughts to share from my observations from afar (Seattle). First, I'm humbled by what Occupy Wall Street has achieved. I had a good feeling that it just might be the start of a movement, and it has exceeded that, having gone worldwide. I've only joined the Seattle group twice, being knocked back from a few health problems. So, I've been relegated to arm-chair/keyboard activism.
I think that the Movement should declare victory for having achieved the goal of global awakening and state the central issue that has brought the people together. And (stay with me please) quit the occupation of spaces and places. I say this for two reasons:
One, is to not run your/ourselves ragged through horrible weather and the chance of attrition from sickness and police arrests slowly whittling down the impact. Save the energy for specific days of action with impact of rested, healthy people. I believe the Movement to be established.
Two, change the name. Not to get caught up in trying to brand (gag) this thing, but for me the word "occupy" has a bad connotation, that being typically associated with oppressive acts of a nation (usually empires) against another nation or people. I think it was a useful turn of the phrase and action against the empire and their corporate/financial cronies who have oppressed the 99%.
That's my two cents worth. Nothing wrong with a name change. It can help in defining the mission. Heck, even the Tea Party started out as Tea Baggers - haha - and they had to change their name cause of their stupidity and changed it to something that still sucks (but not testicles, anyway). Conversely, a name change for the Occupy Movement would actually come from a place of strength, and show that the Movement knows how to make its message more concise and resonant.
Thank you all for being out there. Please don't take my comments as criticism of anyone's efforts or actions. I applaud you and hope to be joining you again, soon. Actually, maybe not. The Seattle site brings back so many bad memories of too many ignored actions against the illegal wars and criminal Bush administration. Westlake is just a space I don't view as worth the time to occupy. That said, I need to get down there and share that with the GA.
I agree, the name should change. I also think the location should change as well. all the occupy groups should band together and head to where the root of the problem actually exists and that's in Washington.
According to the organizer,
"Together we can ensure that these banking institutions will always remember the 5th of November!! If the 99% removes our funds from the major banking institutions to non-profit credit unions on or by this date, we will send a clear message to the 1% that conscious consumers won't support companies with unethical business practices.
• Research your local credit union options • Open an account with the one that best suits your needs • Cancel all automatic withdrawals & deposits • Transfer your funds to the new account • Follow your bank's procedures to close your account before 11/05" http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=281139538577206
Here is what I suggest:
Do not move all of your funds. To put this big of a strain on the system may be irresponsible. Move some of your money out. Just opening an account will send the signal we need.
To find a Credit Union: http://www.findacreditunion.com/ http://locator.cucentral.com/ http://www.findyourcreditunion.co.uk/
This is a great idea.
Where are the leaders of this movement?
This person is 100% right on. Others of us have been talking about this for a while. Need a basic Platform. For reference, I suggest people look at the Progressive Party platform of 1912. Many of those reforms were adopted. The group nominated Teddy Roosevelt who ran for Prez. Next year is the 100 anniversary of this run. Look up on wikipedia to get details. We need to create a Platform. I suggest the following as a starting point:
1) Reform Tax System (wealthy to pay more) 2) Reform Financial System (pass laws to regulate Wall Street, Banks, etc.) 3) Reform Electoral System (public financing, voting on Sundays, etc.) 4) Reform Legislative Process (ban filibuster, etc.)
This would be the essence to which we would seek agreement.
Other legislative reforms we wold seek: 1) public/private funded jobs program; 2) re-training and education programs; 3) limitation of military adventurism; 4) cuts to govt. bureaucracy maybe across the board; 5) system of universal health. We can hash out the details or even discuss these but we need a clear focus and the items need to deal with the essence of our MAJOR problems and abuses. There needs to be PRIORITIZATION.
Next, we have to develop a national organization with adherence to this program. A 1000 chapters with voting members, dues, education, development of communication channels and educational materials. Planning of actions to attract attention, membership and media coverage.
Finally, we can select/elect representatives to attend a Congress which represent this program (or somesuch). Ongoing are demonstrations and protests, all non-violent but also including boycotts of banks, corporations, a mass demonstration at the Capitol in Washington DC. Massive sit-down protests and other forms of non-cooperative, non-compliance. Hit the powers that me in their pocketbooks.
It is time to get serious and go beyond the current level of protest.
I agree with some of the issues, but others fall into the realm of political ideology, such as smaller government, universal health system, etc...
I agree that there should be a third party, but that is separate from this. I think this movement should remain apolitical, and just focus on the issue that everyone can get behind, regardless of party or ideology, and that's getting the money out of Washington.
But like I said, I would like to see the rise of a third party, want that operates in the center, a moderate party.
This still needs to happen. Does anyone know who even runs this web site?
Maybe all the different Occupy groups need to start forming committees
sure
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
This is a good organization of what needs to be done next. If the people would be so kind to help me in my academic research on OWS to show what the people that make up the 99% are. Have your voice heard. http://owsresearch.surveyanalytics.com
I agree. We need completely publicly funded elections. What we need first is an organized forum for constructive discourse about how best to proceed. Does anyone know how to create a group on the nycga website?
would love for an entire forum dedicated to strategy, planning etc... There's this themultitude.org this going around, but I checked it out and it looks just as unwieldy.
How is NYCGA? Also, if you create a group on that site please let me know. Thanks.
It's also pretty disorganized. Many people are posting ideas in different places, but there is no actual discourse. I emailed NYCGA about starting a group, but I don't know. I am engaging in discussions with people on a bunch of different threads. Could you post a comment reminding me to let you know about a group on my thread so I can find you again if I get something going? occupywallst.org/forum/get-the-money-out-of-politics/
bravo! marches may help but-
There are two keys to political success in America - MONEY & VOTES
If you have an extra $10,000,000 - please give it to Elizabeth Warren or the anti-Walker movement in Wisc. or the anti-Prop 5 in Ohio.
Kochs did it with their money - he created the TP with his money and his lies. OWS did it with no money and the truth.
But just as Koch would have failed without the TP VOTING,
we must vote - and write congress.
MONEY OUT NOW!
The capital of DEMOCRACY is the vote – your vote !
Public option & universal health care – medicare for all.
Corporations & rich must pay their fair share.
Corporations are not people & Money is not speech.
Stop oil company subsidies.
Eliminate recent restraints on collective bargaining.
Eliminate recent changes to restrict voting.
Restore banking regulations and regulators – regulate greed.
Break up the non-competitive, too big to fail banks.
Capital gains must be taxed as income.
Stop privatization of government.
Tax exported jobs.
Tax extra for ultra-fast stock trades ( <1 day )
Limit all campaign contributions to $100.
End the wars & Cut the military.
Create an FDR type WPA & CCC & a TVA for wind farms.
Hire & train returning vets.
Arrest and try the war criminals.
Stop using the Patriot Act to spy on Americans.
Arrest and try the bank/investment criminals.
Eliminate the filibuster.
Eliminate the Grover pledge.
FIND YOUR REPRESENTATIVE & SENATORs CONTACT:
https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml -
http://www.house.gov/ -
http://www.senate.gov/ -
Then, “grass roots” it: get at least 4 of your friends to also email their congressman & get them to “grass roots” this through repeated generations–till Washington is covered in grass! You can use www.whitepages.com/person
to look up people & addresses & zip codes. Important Note:
they will only pay attention to zip codes in their
<House> congressional district or
<Senate> state
DEMOCRACY IS FOR SALE ONLY IF YOUR
INACTION ALLOWS IT !
==================================================
THE MESSAGE IS:
VOTE THE WAY WE WANT OR WE WONT VOTE FOR YOU
==================================================
Three organizations (at least)– NRA and AARP and TP have been enormously successful and powerful – by using their votes-
WE MUST TOO !
That's the problem. Money has to be taken out of the equation or at least minimized to some degree. We will never be able to compete with the wealth of the 1%. And our vote no longer matters when they dictate all the options. They've purchased everyone, every single current politician, and every future one as well. Those who don't take these bribes and refuse to play by the rules don't ever make it to a ballot.
Money need to get out, so that our vote can matter again.
i believe that if Jose Oliva got 10,000 letters and emails demanding a bill to tax capital gains as income - and promising to vote against him - he would do it
I just don't trust congress to fix itself. They come up with complicated legislation, hundreds of pages long, with some flashy title, that amounts to nothing but an empty piece of legislation, riddled with loop holes that does nothing to correct the problem, only to maintain the status quo.
It's all for show.
with all respect- operating totally outside the corrupt system will not work imho
No, I agree. I just think that we have to change the system first. The rules of the game promote and reward those that work solely for the 1%. I think first we have to change the rules, so that they reward and promote those that do what's best for the country and it's people.
Now how exactly do we do that. I don't know, but this movement is a very good start.
how? please read my long above posts
changing the fundamental structure of the government and economic system would require a constitutional convention - and with all of the gridlock - probably take a decade. Just one amendment - corporations are not people and money is not speech would solve the supreme flaw. But if you want to wait for a home run - think just two words - president romney.
action especially before the 2011 election support Ohio prop 5 recall
we need a leader - buddy roemer is the ex gov of la - i've heard him many times. Hard to believe hes an r. but hes great. paul is one of the few honest men in dc but i disagree with him 80%. I would like to see one of our existing "leaders" become our Leader. I know none of them. For an outsider - I think it would be hard to beat Dylan Ratigan - MSNBC
We need a leader but I think it the leader needs to be totally and completely removed from the political system. A politician can't run this thing for a lot of reason, but most importantly we need to avoid being labeled as Dem or Reb, Lib or Con or Mod.
very well said but do look into dylan ratigan - he may fit the bill http://www.dylanratigan.com/
I think we should start by looking at the people who started this. They need to have the first shot at this. By the way, does anyone know who started this? We need to get to them, convince them.
Not sure I would trust anyone else.
I have been involved in other "movements" - especially anti vietnam war - and i have never seen anything like this. I respect the mind boggling achievement of numbers - but the process we are using is - TO ME - alienating and too slow.
tp took over the rp with action and votes.
nra keeps the murders coming with action and votes
In the sixties, we had huge marches - but nothing of this dimension.
But those movements - that were NOT monolithic - ACTED! and succeeded. Some of us wanted to impeach Nixon [ before watergate ] and they were listened to and they did their thing. And they helped us do ours.
Our lack of structure and formal leadership ( and "hidden starters" ) may have been a key element in getting us here - but it won't get us much further - especially in winter. Honestly, I dont care who the leader is along as we have one
Yes, I totally agree, with your firsts statement.
I think it's gone the other way, Reps have taken over TP, they just don't know it yet.
I absolutely agree with your final statement. Nice concept, nice idea, but it won't work. If this thing doesn't get organized and find true leadership, if it doesn't gain focus, it will die.
I think pressuring Congress is good. Pressure them more directly to pass Campaign Finance Reform.
http://fairelectionsnow.org/ I probably don't need to tell you this! Just throwing it out there again though for others to see!
Its a start. It's better than what we have now. It will focus attention, get rid of some of the diversions. We fix the rest of the stuff later.
Were you the person I was talking to before about checking out TheMultitude? Sorry, I have a bad memory for user id's!
Anything and everything we can do. This needs to be a full court press and nothing should be left on the table. Except for violence of course.
I posted something on the multitude, it's a little more refined, but I don't like the format. It's a little difficult to have a discussion. Or maybe I'm just using it incorrectly.
Check this out. I saw this guy on tv a few weeks ago. I even emailed him a question. I haven't gotten a response yet. But I totally forgot about him until JUST NOW. I think it was all of the discussions about getting a leader for the movement that triggered something in my brain!
Have you heard of him? What do you think?
http://www.buddyroemer.com/issues/
No, I haven't heard a single thing about him. He is a politician though, someone who is part of the system. I'd be curious to know who his contributors are. Then again, maybe the reason we haven't heard of him is because he doesn't have any. The question I would ask is, who is financing you? Who is paying for the web site etc...
Another one is Nader. Sure, he's crazy, but he's been screaming about this stuff for decades, about the corruption of both parties, how they are essentially the same etc...
I think the leader of this movement needs to be totally and completely unconnected to anything remotely close to government.
I think the question might be, what groups or interests were in opposition to the CU group.
google, Citizens United v FEC. , CU is a right wing interest group that challenged a Federal Election rule. Went all the way to the Supreme Ct in 2010 which decided 5-4 in favor of CU for unlimited ads before election on the grounds of free speech. CU has a website, I think they sound like nut jobs, but thats just ME!
Also, I heard something on the news that in the past 20 years there have been 5 Supreme Ct rulings that have essentially infringed on democracy, in favor of special interests like the CU case. There were no other detail givens. I'm going to see if I can find out more about that.
Okay, I googled those names but I didn't find any information that linked those 2 to this. I may just post the question.
I haven't heard those names before. I'll have to wiki them to check them out.
Something else I was thinking. It's been in the back of my mind from the beginning that this all seemed a reaction to the Citizens United decision. Perhaps it was started by a group that was opposing that decision.??
What is that? Please enlighten me? I'll google these names as well.
system glitch. I'm replying to your earlier comment, because I did not get a "reply" option on the last one.
I have NO idea who started this thing. I have heard rumors that it is George Soros. Something about the original startup was from a site called Adbusters, who is supposedly, partially, backed by Sorsos. Very early on- I think there was even a link to Adbusters here. Who knows?? One day, many years from now, when this is all over, someone will write a book and we'll find out! Until then, I think it will remain a mystery.
Maybe it was Buddy Roemer! Maybe he started this up to generate grass root support for himself in a clandestine way!! Maybe I'm just reading too many conspiracy theories out here! haha
I'm afraid that your hope for a leader from the inside will be a LONG time in coming. I read, saw, heard some other stuff about the protest electing delegates for a convention in Philadelphia, in July 2012 in order to nominate candidates for the mid-terms in 2014. THAT is a long time to wait!
That's happened to me before. The two names I have heard before are Beka Econolopolous and Jesse Myerson. But who ever it is we need to figure it out quick. I saw a poll on CNN that scared the heck out of m last night. It stated that 30% agreed with this movement, and 30% did not and the rest were on the fence. anytime I see numbers like that, means this thing is falling into the old trap of Dem vs. Rep, Lib vs. Con, with moderates on the fence. This is dangerous territory. If this devolves into that, then this movement will either die or betaken over by the left, and both will result in failure. If someone doesn't take control soon, and in my opinion it has to be those that started this, then this thing will fail, and a great opportunity will be lost.
I too heard about some convention, but by that time it will be too late. This needs to happen now. If they don't step up, then one of the parties will.
Yes, but Nader is not running. Is he?? You're right about asking all those questions though. But I think the best way to find out more about him is for the spotlight to be on him. If he had more support, he'd have the bright light turned on him. Maybe he needs to be taken slightly viral.
I'm just not confident any one person can make a difference, especially from the inside. Politicians will say anything to get elected. A lot of people don't like Paul, but he's always railing against the corruption of Washington.
I think a leadership group must form within this movement, one that is not attached to Washington.
Do you know who started this movement? Or who runs this web site? They need to take the initiative.
(1) --> OK (2) --> agree with diagnosis. Rather than fight to limit them why not fight to act upon the rights of 99% already given by constitution and expand by 2nd Bill of Rights. It's an irony that the need to maximize profits by non citizens (even if corporation is a person, it is not a citizen) is allowed to deny rights of human citizens. (3), (4) --> OK (5) all these changes would need constitutional amendment. Go to all capitals.
Agreed. Each Occupy Location should organize a committee to represent the group and take the consideration of the mass consensus. Each Occupy should follow guidelines to achieving the common goal of the movement but should operate independently without depending of central leadership. I am sure the elements I mentioned have been in practice but it should be clear that all groups in each occupy will be considered but should be in complete agreement of movement policies.
That would be a good start.
Amen
In my opinion, the next step that will keep the movement moving in the best way (and definitely before consolidating demands) should be a massive society-wide teach-in on the fundamental problem: that our societies and governments have become plutocracies – run by and for the wealthy – rather than democracies run (in one way or other) by and for the democratic majority. Once the problem of plutocracy is widely and clearly understood, then it would be appropriate for people to democratically discuss and decide at what level(s) of the problem the demands should aim.
great points...both of you
I actually think many people see things this way. They just accept it, they think they can't change it.
Read the Washington Blog called Who is to Blame. Great article!! Very informative to who is to blame Washington D.C. or Bankers. Both is to blame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Read the Washington Blog called Who is to Blame. Great article!! Very informative to who is to blame Washington D.C. or Bankers. Both is to blame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We are to blame for supporting them both till this point, and we will be to blame again if we don't demand change.
I agree, both are to blame, but to fix this change must occur in Washington. A Crack addict will always have the resources and desire to purchase crack, you can't stop the crack addict, but if you can stop the supplier and cut off the supply....
Absolutely, we need to organize in our churchs, union halls, city halls, facebook, twitter. We need to be active in the upcomming primaries to rid ourselves of corrupt politicians. Lift up. Organize. Set goals. Vote. Take our country back to we the people, and away from we the corp, we the bank, or we the political dynasty.
We need to change the system force. we can replace politicians but so long as the operate in a system that only rewards those that actively support the 1% it won't matter who we put in office. We need to change the rules of the game so that that they reward politicians that do right by us and what is in our best national interest.
Forget leadership as leaderships always get corrupted over time. And the message should be 'Get informed about debitism'. It is NOT a theory of a utopic system. It is just a theory about the real existing system from a different point of view.
I don't think it is the 1% which stay in our way. If you look at the system we have from a debitistic point of view you will realize that also the 1% are only slaves to the system.
Good point. If we don't wan't history to get repeated over and over again we need to forget all we heard about all kind of systems and should start crowdsourcing a new stable global system where everyone can live by his believes and where we all can freely care for our needs. And it will only work if we first forgive all debts and guilts, whatever sort they are, because we all are only humans who did what had to be done.
As the 'experts' always had problems of integrating new viewpoints, especially when they are too obvious (think of Gallileo), start educating the masses about the principles of debitism. Because for them they would be easyer to understand. And the more people start talking about debitism the quicker it will draw the attention of the experts. And the revolution will come faster and easyer as you can imagine.
Take the fight to the UN. Stop thinking local. This thing is getting global so start thinking global.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/maybe-this-will-get-the-support-of-mainstream-medi/
And don't believe anything someone tells you about something (including me) if you don't have the feeling that you understand what he is talking about. Instead get informed, think about it and if it seems to be logical, then think about it again, beeing the own 'advocatus diaboli'. And never take something for sure, because there is always something which has not been taken into account.
Yes, it's them. They are the ones that make the rules and maintain a system that benefits mostly themselves at the expense of the rest of us. They have purchased direct influence over our government, we need to curb that influence. I'm not saying no influence, but less.
It is not THEM. THEY only do what THEY think is the right thing.
What you think of are single persons which have no problem of killing someone if he stands in the way. But they usually don't kill the person personally. Instead they try to convince someone to do that for them and they can be very convincing. These persons, who hide behind the scenes, have to be identified and pulled from the back into the front for getting accused.
But to find these really bad guys, you must first dismantle the system, get THEM on your side (what THEY would love to do if THEY really understand the consequences of debitism) and then THEY will help you identify the guilty.
And the easiest way to get THEM on your side and turn THEIR influence into a positive power is START INFORMING YOURSELF (AND OTHERS) ABOUT DEBITISM.
Go to D.C. stop the corporate influence there! We need ethical candidates! Everyone march!
Marching in DC idea is shot down by special interest groups in OWS. We tried but never materialized
Before ethical candidates, we need to change the system. The system doesn't promote or reward ethical politicians, it promotes and rewards the ones that are willing to sell their soles for wealth and power. It's the system that must change and that system exists in Washington.
Corp America acts in it's own interest and you cant blame them for that.
David Howell Petraeus officially announced as Occupy Wall street Presidential Candidate.
Need to remove the ability of anyone to buy influence in washington, the corporations do it because they can. Make it a non option and were all on the same plane.
Please! Take the fight to Washington and let the good people of NY get back to their useful and productive lives!
Actually, the people that are in down town NY, and in all the other cities around the nation, should eventually end up in Washington.
Get em on a bus
I would also like the movement to nominate me as it's Ultimate Leader for Life. Fortunately, they're smart enough to ignore my demands and Hopefully yours as well.
What demands have I made?
I meant recommendations.
As for those, I personally think that's the way we have to go, leaders, organization, a vision, strategy, these things are essential to getting things done. without them, all you have is people talking about getting things done.
Ok, How about we do this we Incorporate. and call ourselves OccupyInc. and then we hire a CEO and let him raise $$ from a stock issue and use it to buy some DC pols and then... How's that for Org. leadership and vision. It works pretty good from what I can see cause the Fortune 500 have pretty much used all those tools and bought most of the Gov't everywhere. Oh and of course he will pay himself nicely have a Corp. Jet etc.
You got one thing right. It works. It actually works when you have structure, organization and a leadership group. It's why they are winning, and we are just sitting here talking about it.
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
Yes, the founding fathers had it right.
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