Forum Post: Occupy LA Demonstrators Held for Days and $5,000 Bail
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 4, 2011, 12:24 a.m. EST by lisa
(425)
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The conditions they were held in were one notch below rendition. The only thing missing was the torture. After being pelted with rubber bullets, being held on busses for 48 hours, having to urinate on themselves, being denied any water (kidney damage and dehydration can occur), shackled for those same 48 hours.
is this how we want OUR police to treat our citizens?
They aren't our police anymore. Our police served and protected the public from criminals and danger. Shooting at unarmed protesters is not serving or protecting them. I don't think the protesters should be trying to live in outdoor parks, but the police should not be brutalizing them.
They were rubber bullets. I think the intent was not to kill.
O spot on... what happened to serve and protect the citizens, not the thief's from Washington and the banks
Welcome to Revolution weaklings
Everyone who gets arrested should demand a jury trial. It would be interesting to see just how long cities could afford this process.
When the police ask you to leave what should you do? think about it......No, wrong answer, you should leave then regroup later. Everyone is aware of the actions the police will take if you fail to comply, but you still bitch and moan when the expected happens. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
You may be right. When the Taliban saw how the war was gong to be played out in their country, they changed their strategy to hit and run, guerilla warfare. They don't try to fight over a stronghold and get decimated, they hit and run and return later, constantly moving around. Maybe that's what OWS needs to do, when asked to leave, don't think of it like the Battle of Little Bighorn, leave, disperse, then come back later. Guerilla protesting! Be in many places in a short amount of time.
http://www.lorenzohagerty.com/blog/?p=525
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/30/mayor-bloomberg-calls-the-nypd-my-own-army/
Well hell yeah! Treat all citizens like prisoners of war!!!!!
"The mayor of New York and his police commissioner reveal just how comfortable they are with autocracy . . . Billionaire New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg has his own army! No, it’s not a private security firm, like Blackwater. It’s actually, according to the mayor, the New York City Police Department. . . . “I have my own army in the NYPD, which is the seventh biggest army in the world. . . . Bloomberg, of course, is being a touch ironic, but he’s also not wrong. The NYPD has a 1,000-man army within its increasingly militarized ranks. It has tanks, combat rifles, anti-aircraft weaponry, non-lethal anti-terror sound cannons, and, supposedly, a submarine. And it’s all under the command of one guy, Ray Kelly, who answers solely to one other guy: Mike Bloomberg. . . . Bloomberg’s conception of the NYPD as “his army” explains a lot. Like why he thought it’d be OK to deploy them to Bermuda to help police his weekend home. "
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Good. The cops in LA doing their job. My favorite police force. You break the law and the law breaks you. You people fail to realize, you can't break the law, just because someone else has something you want, right?? When the city asks you to leave after being nice enough to let you stay for over a month, even though it's a law to be out of public parks after dark, and you say no, you are then breaking the law. When the law asks you multiple times to leave, and you say no, you're really messing up. This is what you get, so yes this is what should be expected, and will be repeated as cities and cops get tired of this stupid campaign.
cruel and unusual punishment like denying access to water and bathrooms is CONSTITUTIONALLY ILLEGAL. I don't care what the crime is, the police have showed there true colors if the reports are true, and I dont doubt it.
If I were reading this message in Nazi Germany, I wouldn't be surprised by the content. However, since this is America - once the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave - I have to be disappointed by the views expressed in this rather alarming opinion. I will say that at least some of us are still Brave, but that none of the 99% are Free of governmental oppression and even violence at this crucial period in our national experience. I, for one, am willing to give my life for this cause, and I hope that many more of you feel the same way, Living as slaves on our knees is not an option.
the term you are looking for is civil disobedience
It is a fine American Tradition, dating all the way back to our Revolution.
We have the right to assemble guaranteed by our Constitution.
Rubber Bullets have no place here -
Unless
The Plan is to Incite More Violence.
They do if you don't want to listen to direct orders. If you had a more professional way of doing things, the police and cities wouldn't react in such a fashion. You want the violence, because you think it will make your cause relevent. It won't. It only hurts it and you
I second question that. Unions have a history of using civil disobedience and don't came under the same scrutiny some give to OWS. And we can see where their civil disobedience has gotten them. Very little in the recent years, with Taft-Hartley and other laws setting a precedence on what they can actually do to make changes. I hear the same calls. When teachers go on strike, we should throw them in jail.
I don't buy one bit there is a more professional way of doing things. There may be a better way of doing things, but it still will be a form of civil disobedience.
And does the US really act more professional? The fact that we complain about terror and go to war and assault innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan?
I'm not bringing up the war. It has nothing to do with this. It is a law across the country that you have to be out of a city park by sundown. after that you get a fine. The cities are kind enough to let it go for so long. Now things are getting bad. ODs, a suicide, and a shooting, each were known protestors.Now the cities are starting to get tired of it. Now, because it's getting cold out you think, you can run in foreclosed houses, or build structures on government property-now you're breaking a couple laws. A better way would to have security, and some kind of waste management. But nobody wants to spend the money on that. I guess they really don't care who they are really impacting and don't give a shit
I think you hit the point on the fact that nobody does want to spend money on things like that. I don't really know if doing such would be a good thing or a bad thing. Allowing money to come in can be considered a form of control, even with strings attached. I tend to believe we need to find ways to keep money out of the picture. I think it is likely better if we keep our hands clean in that regard.
I am not sure if I agree with the use of that structure in the way they presented it or not. I do support efforts to occupy foreclosed houses, but not for selfish reasons - rather for the support of those whose homes were being foreclosed upon. I do support occupying vacant buildings, especially if such a building is going to be demolished for the purpose of a luxury condo. The structure thing seemed a bit odd to me, especially in the sense that they had to know that the police would order it taken down. I doubt if I would have taken part in that.
Secondly, not everyone in the movement is willing to engage in the more radical actions. Some are, and a bit of it is likely needed, but not for everyone. I am in a local and small GA in North Carolina, with little activity going on. Most are older folks and are not that willing to participate in stuff where they would be immediately arrested, but are willing to take part in a variety of street protest actions but are not entirely willing to camp out and things of that nature.
Entering a foreclosed home is a crime. It's not vacant, it is owned by the bank. It's up to the bank if they wanna keep it or sell it to a developer. Breaking into a house because you're cold is selfish. You think the families who stuff may still be in there want people going through it?? Don't you think they would break back in and live there if they thought no one would mind??
I don't support going into foreclosed homes if there is stuff in there. I have read some reports of protestors attempting to side with owners thrown out of their foreclosed homes, thus allowing the owners to go back in and the protestors standing outside to hold off the bank people. This is what I tend to think of when I support the occupation of foreclosed homes. I guess there are those that are now talking about simply breaking in for their own reasons, but is that really happening on a large scale?
Banks have shown the ability to write and change laws in their best interest, and as such should not be shown any credibility amongst the people. They have used unscrupulous means to engage in this foreclosure epidemic, by misleading the public and engaging in deceitful behavior. When corporate interests begin writing and dictating the law, then the law is no longer in the public arena. It takes a degree of civil disobedience to counter that kind of power.
Sell it to a developer? Or sell it at a lower price to a foreclosure auction? That should be seen as a legal form of corruption. Foreclosure auctions should be occupied. They should not be allowed to persist.
Or maybe a better way would be to engage the people who have lost their homes to foreclosure. Then, target a foreclosure auction that has yet to take place. Tell the people to make that their new homes, while the protestors occupy the surrounding grounds to keep the bank people at bay. Simply let the owners operate the homes as they see fit, determine a price rate for new houses to be bought in the future, and simply take control of the economics of the situation.
See above
no, they shouldn't be occupied. The houses or the auctions(you can get your stuff back cheaper at auction if you bid right, btw. The bank owns the house till the bill is paid. Same as if you bought a car with a bank loan. You don't pay, the bank repos it. Remember, these people also signed agreement they knew they couldn't pay. Should the banks have denied them, yes. But because stimulus money(both corporate and ta paying citizens, if you paid you taxes you got one) was being thrown around, rules loosened up to help the economy. There was irresponsibility on both sides. This is the fallout
There are a lot of economic factors involved. People who get laid off and can not afford to further payments for a while, and are still in debt due to getting a job that pays less than the original. Also, it has been estimated that about half of all foreclosures is due to medical debt.
Personally, I do not support home ownership. I believe it is linked to the tax system in negative ways that encourages further home ownership. I support rentals to compensate, but would rather see cooperative settings become a more common place.
it is a messy process, I agree.
There are laws and there are penalties for breaking laws, agreed. However, treating people like they are in military rendition is wrong and that is how they were treated. The only thing missing was putting pillowcases over their heads, snatching them at 3:30 am, then interrogating and torturing them. You don't shoot at unarmed protesters, leave them in handcuffs for 48 hrs., deny them water and a bathroom and food. That certainly is not proper police procedure.
No it's not. It's the LAPD. They are the police force in it's purist form and I love them for it. Do they take things to the extreme?? Hell yes. Do they have a lot extreme situations?? Yessir, they have a lot of ground to cover, and things get real tough. Are they great humans? Yup, they can be nice as hell, they'll even help you out(Y'know Protect and Serve?). If you act like a jerk to a cop, they will command the situation. If your nice, own up to what you did, they'll be way nicer-unless you do something where you do something really messed up. There were complaints, and the city is getting tired of it. When you disturb the LAPD to the point of national news, the local police follow suit. They are the brain of the long arm of the law.
the police have broken the law
No they Occupy protestors are breaking the law. Now they think they can build unsafe structures on city property. Which is also illegal. The cops even gave them a chance and sent in a building inspector and he officially codemned it. And they still refused to leave. So the cops now had to evict them.
So we should obey like good little dogs not questioning our masters authority? When laws are built around protecting the corrupt and thieves we must stand up for ourself. And protesting is not illegal.
If the law allows that, frankly it needs to be changed...
Why would you hold words on a page in such high esteem that you think they somehow justify those kind of actions against your fellow citizens? People speed, they get a fine; that's breaking a law too... yet many do it, but most people would agree that a Rodney King beating is a bit out of line.
The law doesn't allow that. The point I'm trying to make is the LAPD is like a thermostat. They let a situation build up(like antifreeze in your car, it gets hotter as you run it), act cool and nice about it. When they, the city and the citizens who have to put up with this stuff have had enough, the thermostat opens(thusly cooling the hot engine) and shit goes down. The local police see that they have had enough, and the call is made it time to clamp down. Expect repeat occurances across the country. These people are not my fellow citizens. I work for nothing a week, but I'm not mad. I have a job, while they abandon theirs for a cause that is rapidly losing steam. If the cops don't break it up, the winter will.
That's an unfortunate lack of compassion. You disagree with the views of other people, and they are no longer fellow citizens.
The law doesn't allow a lot of things, jaywalking is another... but just because someone breaks it, it does not give the police the license to do whatever they want to the person, especially if he is in custody and helpless.
Previous to reading this, I had thought LAPD did a good job peacefully disbursing them; but I guess they just didn't want to be bullies in front of the Cameras. Too bad.
I have compassion, but these movements are breaking the law. They are no longer "fellow"as in I do not think as you, I don't represent your cause, not you should be kicked out of the country. You're right. Jaywalking is a law. people break that one left and right-I bet you do too. You could do it right in front of a cop, and they wouldn't do anything. Does that mean that you can jaywalk in front of a cop doing drugs(they were called out by the citizen for that and disorderly)?? Nope. They'll get out of the car. If you're cool, they will(usually) be cool. If you're an ass, they might kick yours. And depending on how you want to start the situation is up to you(I've attempted and witnessed both ways, I know the better option). This is the wake up call. It's time to think up some kind of(viable) leadership and strategy or disperse. And as for them not wanting to looking like bullies(they aren't), they get entire TV shows, movies and merchandising about their exploits.
If this were a bunch of wife-beaters, thieves, murderers, rapists, child abusers, etc. then a little bit of police terror here and there isn't necessarily a bad thing and depending on what exactly they've done I might be quite interested in joining in. The fact is that nonviolent protesters are not criminals, and treating them as such is unacceptable. Raucous, dirty, etc. they may be, but if you want to lay hands on them that bad then go out there, do it yourself, and when it's your turn to piss yourself in the back of the bus we'll see whether you still endorse police brutality.
I agree to a point. The cities are tired of them. So are the cops. And let's face it, ask anyone what they know about LAPD. They will all tell you they take less crap than any PD in this country. OWS protestors think they have some kind of constitutional right to break laws, because they are protesting. These "camps" are getting out of control. There's drug use, raping(happened in Hartford, the piece of shit who did it wasn't even reported to the police for fear of making "the movement" look bad), and people dying. Not because they are being "oppressed", but because they are stupid enough to sleep in freezing temps, OD, or what have you(and yes, they have died from these reasons. Not like in the 1900's were people died from the cops beating them.) These people were held in jail. Unshackled. You got a problem with that, what will you say when I tell you when they raid gang territory, they do the same thing?? A lot of them were released that day or the next. Cops messing with you cause you're a different race(it has happened to me) is one thing. Taunting them by repeatedly breaking the law is another. You WarriorJoe says he doesn't doubt the claims, I bet he (maybe) only looked at the link, and not actually look somewhere where the info being put out is not biased. And to Restorefreedom. You can't end violence. Insects do it, and animals(humans are animals, too btw) do it. This has nothing to do with Nazi Germany(poor is not a race). Our government does not oppress us. You want to see real oppression, go to the Mid East.
I agree that tensions are high. The police are in the middle. They are not insanely rich, but they still receive their direction and pay from those that are. There is very little "serve and protect" policing happening in our country (I've had to try and chase down thieves myself when police officers refused to do it). They aren't making these calls themselves though. Following orders is not an excuse, but the real problems are coming from the top down. I don't think that drug use and rape (while this is a tremendous crime and not to be taken lightly) can be attributed to OWS. These are must bigger symptoms of our societal ills. We continue to pursue legislation and enforcement which escalates these problems rather than lessen them. I think recent news has shown us that not reporting crimes and standing up for fellow citizens is major issue (which seems to be worsening worldwide). People are becoming extremely disconnected from one another which has allowed these problems as well as permitted our government to run rampant. As for restoring freedoms without violence, I'll stick to cautious optimism at this point. Humans are only animals, but are still evolving. It is my hope we can overcome the obstacle of the inherent pack mentality that is still the bane of this Earth. While I agree that this is not an equivalent situation to that of Nazi Germany, it is a matter of human (and citizen) rights which are being infringed upon. The government does oppress us, but maybe not to the same degree as some areas of the Mid East.
You're only oppressed if you believe you are. If you set things up, you would have had some kind of security. Crime within your gates hurts your cause. Living in horrible conditions(at some, but most likely most), hurts your cause.Why would the cops help? All you do is yell at them, because, even though you aren't orderly, you are allow to assemble. If you yell at me all day, I wouldn't do anything either. Unless they started hurting you. That's different. It's not that they were given orders, they are people, too. You seem to forget that, and as people, they are getting tired of your shit. And yes the drug use(5 OD related deaths, a shooting, and a suicide) and rape(seriously not all like that, don't get me wrong) happens in all"Occupy blah, blah, blah" People are being disconnected, it's sad, but there are to many damn people. I live on a street that was nice and quiet. Now it takes me at least 45 minutes to get to the next town and back at worst, and 30 minutes at best. I don't wanna go to malls, because there's tons of people there(I mean standing room only during the holidays). I know it sounds crazy, but think about it. If there were less people everywhere you went, wouldn't you go out more??
Oppression can be a broad term and to some degree can be in the eye of the beholder. If you personally feel there is no oppression against you, that is your perspective and you are welcome to express that. Unfortunately, I think many people feel oppressed and could benefit from a reduction in the police state mentality. I agree that screaming at a police officer probably isn't the best way to dredge up a positive result. I would advise speaking to them like a sane person and trying to find common ground. One is more likely to educate another about their cause with that method. As for my personal role, I have not built any gates, lived in a camp, or caused any sh*t that would've caused the officers at #OWS any undue malaise. The protesters and officers both need to realize that they are dealing with fellow citizens. They are just on increasingly conflicted sides of the same fence. I am not saying that problems haven't happened in the camps, but I don't have the data to confirm they have happened at a higher rate there than at other similar concentrations of people. I do agree that the world is becoming overpopulated, but it also seems that improved education reduces birth rates. I have chosen not to have children (at least to date) because of escalating problems internal and external to our nation. Do I think we need to protect and restore people's rights? Yes. Do I think people need to be responsible and pay attention to the strained resources of an overpopulated world? Yes.
Thank you for having a more level head than a lot of people on here. If there were more people like you in this, I could honestly give it more credibility. I don't feel oppressed, because most of these people are suffering from(to be honest from world stage prospective) rich kid problems. Sure were broke. You can give allowance to 6 kids when you only make enough for 4. That's what's starting to happen. not just here, but everywhere. And what happens when molecules get too close together?? The incidents I mentioned were protestors, I wouldn't have brought it up otherwise. I don't need to smear what's going on out there, because to honest, I don't care. They are out there of their own free will, I just watch.
You are welcome and the same to you. To be honest, I'm more of a Centrist than a Leftist. I'm just keeping a watchful eye and putting my support wherever I see the possibility for positive change. Am I pushing for free college degrees, complete absolution from mortgages or any of those things? That's just a little too one-sided for me. Have our politicians gone awry? Yes. Have we been to apathetic? Yes. Now we have some hard work to do to fix things and it has to be top-down and bottom up if we're to meet in the middle (and hopefully fix our debt problems in the process). I'd think we all need to be realistic. If we want our politicians to pay attention to us, we'll need to keep a constant eye on them too.