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Forum Post: Occupy And The Two Party System

Posted 2 years ago on April 20, 2012, 2:48 a.m. EST by GypsyKing (9780)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Since its inception, Occupy has focused (rightly, I think) upon Wall Street and the runaway excesses of cut-throat, deregulated, monopolized, capitalism of the criminal class, canabalizing our society and all the societies in which they opperate.

That was the original message of Occupy, and the message that has tied me to this movement

The great realization of Occupy has been the recognition that our democracy has been corrupted by an oligarchy; a combination of banking and corporate interests that have coerced our democracy to do their bidding, rather then the bidding of the people.

So it must be understood that Occupy sees those corrupting influences upon democracy as the problem, rather than our democratic heritage itself.

This fundamental realization sparates Occupy from the Tea Party, who see government as the problem, and unregulated corporate capitalism as the solution. Therefore, it was unrealistic from the begining to think that Occupy and the Tea Party could join forces.

I see democracy as our indespensible common heritage; as the thread that has bound this country together for over two centuries, and that those who stand for democracy are the true American patriots, no matter how the opposition tries to wrap itself in the flag.

And yet we are puzzled as to how we should proceed when we all know that both political parties are corrupted, to one degree or another, by the vast economic influence of the corporate/banking oligarchy.

This corrupted system has so far proved impervious to reform. If any one group splits from the party they see as representing their values, all they do is assure the election of the opposite party - and all the while the one party comes to be less and less different from the other. So the question becomes, "How can we actually achieve reform?"

Despite our hopes and wishes for an easily comprehended solution, the answer is very complex, because that nauture of the problem itself is very complex. Yet the essential issue remains - we must perserve democracy. If we lose this guiding light than we will fall into a dark age, and the answer lies in a re-affirmation of our first and underlying goal as a movement; to remove the stranglehold of vested-interest from the throat of true democracy.

That is the conundrum!

Given that the vast majority of Americans (who have any interest in politics or policy whatever) are alligned with one party or the other, and are therefore unlikely to form a vast new political movement in the near future, that is, before the next election, how shall we make reform a reality?

There is only one way. We need to recognize who our allies are and who they aren't within the existing political spectrum, and work with our allies - not be coopted by them - but rather push them in the direction of radical action. That those allies exist is opportunity knocking at our very door.

If we can't change the system with direct action, if that proves impossible, than we must form alliances with all those who believe in our essential goals. If we seize that opportunity, than we will be unstoppable.

Those who tell you we can go it alone are selling you an unrealistic panacea, a chimaera, a dream.

250 Comments

250 Comments


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[-] 6 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Before I went through and upvoted some comments here, virtually every comment had been voted down to 1 point. This is yet another (reatively small) way for the trolls to manipulate popular perception.

It is also a way to try to "train" people not to comment on my threads, and all of my comments are now voted down.

Well guess what, it ain't going to deter me one bit!

Ha, ha, ha, ha!!!

[-] 6 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You bet - it is a nasty compliment. They don't even engage as they then get burned - nope the old silent vote down.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

That's right, and their increasing efforts to silence us just makes me more determined to go forward! I have two very important projects on hold because I have been so drawn to this forum, but every day that goes by just re-confirms my belief in the necessity of this work.

[-] 5 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I agree and appreciate the dedication. I appreciate everyone who has come here to fight for our country to fight for our world and our way of life. This is still a beautiful world and we can save it and make it better. I can think of nothing finer to participate in.

[-] 5 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yes, you are right. This is our oportunity to reform the world in the shape we would have it in for future generations. Our technology and numbers have outpaced our realization that we are the stewards of this planet, and we must now step up to that challenge. It is now or never. There is nothing more important . . . nothing.

[-] 7 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

My days are waning but there are so many yet to see the sun it is unthinkable that greed could be allowed to destroy a world.

[-] 5 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yes, mine too, but those of us who have seen an unsheltered life in all it's catastrophic glory have a duty to preserve it, and to try to enrich the world for future generations, rather than impoverish it.

All of us are free to walk that path - the map of it is knowledge a-priori. It takes courage and stamina, but I would have walked no other road and I know you wouldn't either, regardless the obsticles and pitfalls strewn forever at our feet, because it is the only path with honor. At your side you will always have the truth, and also those who know that wealth isn't something you can hold in your pocket or leave behind when you die, and these are the best of companions.

Thanks for your great contibution here DKA.

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Wow again I am left speechless. All I know is that I am very fortunate in the company I have here and the awesome opportunity this movement represents. And I am honored by your support.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I know when I have encountered a kindred spirit. I am honored by your support, and by that of many others here as well.

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (6763) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

morning

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Good morning factsrfun. Actually, for me it's now good night. I'll catch up with you later:)

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (6763) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

banned for voting too much I'm a rookie

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Damn!

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6763) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

here's something I put on the new "troll" post but I like it and want to share it with you

"This is what I think abut this, all networks are living things, the power of the networks being created today can only be imagined in the minds of our very brightest. As people connect like neurons in the brain a new living creature of sorts emerges. Just as our weak and fragile individual human bodies need mechanisms that keep them safe from dissolving into ever “lower” forms of life, so it is with our networks. As we defend its principles (even as we discover what those are), we become a new living creature.

Will it be of the “higher” or “lower” form will depend on us and our willingness to care?

But this network will grow and like all living things it will find a way to protect itself, whether this site and its sister sites become a large or small voice will depend on the actions of each of us."

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Very well put. Our fate is in our own hands. No one will save us but us. We must chose whether we want to follow the light or descend into the darkness.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by Reneye (118) 2 years ago

Are the projects related to what's happening here and will you let us know when you have completed them so we can take part?

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Personally, I'm pinning my hopes on the Mayday strike. If it's effective enough we may not need either political party!

Check out the news page on this site.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

It gets voted down because we hate those that endorse the system and the wars......

We have other options now. But they still have everyone scared into the lesser two evils thing..... Like one that horribly evil is worse than the one thats just plain evil.

Shameful. I hate sheeple.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

The question is, who is we . . .? because I don't believe for one minute that you and all your Florida buddies belong to OWS.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

"We" I guess would be those that are tired of the D/R nonsense and want real, meaningful change.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Well if that's what you really want, then we don't have an argument. I am talking about strategey. Just wanting something to happen won't necessarily make it happen. Apathy got us into this horrible mess; only activism in all it's forms, other than violence, will get us out. Why should we not work with those who agree with us. The reality of the history of the two party system means that all those who have been politically active, and alligned with our cause, have been thrust to the margins of the Democatic Party. Many of these people are our closest allies. Why should we shun them?

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

No need to shun them. Just no need to cosponsor with them.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I'm not saying we should merge with them. I think we need to remain independent and radical, but we can't afford to be stupid either.

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[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

That's like saying ALEC doesn't work for a side.

Care to show me the equivalent on the other "side"?

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

ALEC works for a "side" alright: The corporate fascist "side". The "side" that controls the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, and our entire electoral system.

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Sure, and I've got a bridge to sell you.

Virtually ALL the legislation ALEC has written has been passed by Republican controlled state legislatures.

Of course, you must know that already, considering your PR business that you are using this site to promote and get paid handsomely for MUST do at least SOME research to remain profitable. Or is that only from your business accounts that are the 9//11 truthers and the End The Fed coalition?

Yup, they're all the same, and Sasquash blew of the World Trade Center.

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

We call you out:

We have seen no evidence from any reliable source that "Virtually ALL the legislation ALEC has written has been passed by Republican controlled state legislatures."

Put up, or shut up.

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

We? You or your PR firm's employees? Or is it just the Royal "we" you are using?

Sanctimonious shit.

Do some research.

Thank you for gracing us with you presence since YESTERDAY. Now THAT'S commitment!

You are a 9/11 Truther , EndTheFed conspiracy loon out to make a buck. You are a shill and a hypocrite.

Go fuck yourself.

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

You wrote, and I quote, "Virtually ALL the legislation ALEC has written has been passed by Republican controlled state legislatures."

I demand again that you provide links to substantial authoritative sources that specifically support that assertion, or that you retract it.

As I said, PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

You have the PR firm you are shilling for over here. Get one of your lackeys to look it up for you. (And please, pay him or her more than minimum wage.)

ALEC operates in red states. They have had no success in Blue ones.

Most of their legislation has to do with the following issues:

Undercutting Health Care Reform (right wing/libertarian)

Corporate Power and eliminating Workers’ Rights (Right wing/libertarian)

Tax Policy (increasing breaks to the 1%)

Private School Vouchers (Right wing/Libertarian)

Shoot First Laws (Right Wing/Libertarian)

Voter ID and Election Laws (Disenfranchising the poor and minorities who tend to vote Democratic)

Obstructing Environmental Protection (Pure right wing/libertarian)

These are not issues that Democratic legislators have ever voted in favor of. They are a purely right wing / Republican-Libertarian agenda.

Your firm must be going bankrupt if you do all your research so poorly.

[-] -3 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Without any supporting links, your post has no credibility. Put up or shut up, and stop blathering on as if your word alone might mean something to me.

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

http://www.pfaw.org/rww-in-focus/alec-the-voice-of-corporate-special-interests-state-legislatures

And you are a fucking, arrogant uninformed piece of shit for posting your divisive drivel here when not even knowing about the very organizations that curropt the political process. You just keep repeating you fucking bullshit with having a clue about who really votes what way, and who is really influencing those votes.

Go back to where you came from since before yesterday, under that bridge where the rest of you trolls live. See how well you can build your business, trying to profit off of OWS. And from from complete ignorance, to boot. You ARE the very corruption you so publicly decry.

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Your link does not support your specific contention. Besides, if ALEC didn't own Democrats as well as Republicans, then why would there be Progressive "Democrats, Dump ALEC!" campaigns like this one?

http://act.boldprogressives.org/survey/rsvp_mediacall_AlecLegis/

The question is rhetorical by the way. If you don't have facts to counter or clarify, I'm not interested in your opinions.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Reply to your post below:

9 Democrats? That's the massive colusion you accuse them of?

HAHAHA.

I am talking about HUNDREDS of state legislators, who have passed DOZENS of laws, and you come up with NINE names to "prove" that both parties have been equally bought, EIGHT of whom work in REPUBLICAN states?

Wow, some objective fact-finding there! NOT.

You really are a moron.

[-] -1 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Once more, Einstein:

You wrote, and I quote, "Virtually ALL the legislation ALEC has written has been passed by Republican controlled state legislatures."

I asked you to provide links to substantial authoritative sources supporting this contention. You posted one link that didn't. So one more time...

PUT UP, OR SHUT UP.

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

One More Thing, Einstein:

Read the link I posted again:

http://act.boldprogressives.org/survey/rsvp_mediacall_AlecLegis/

The 8 or 9 Democrats listed there are not the ones being called out for being in bed with ALEC - they are the ones making the call to HUNDREDS of other Democrats to get OUT of bed with ALEC!

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Moreover you should simply look for yourself.

If your alleged prowess for truth was real? You already would have.

[-] -1 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

This posting must be embarassing for you. We'll all understand if you delete it.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Yet they work almost exclusively with the (R)epelican'ts.

Plus they have deep roots in the neolibe(R)tarian community.

How does that fit your zeitgeist?

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

The Democrats and the Republicans work for the same people. Praising or panning one versus the other is a waste of my time, your time, any time.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

You didn't answer the question.

You didn't make it fit, in fact, you ignored it.

Now why would you do that?

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by OccNoVi (415) 2 years ago

Also, most likely, the process is automated.

"Shill" is a type of bot.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yeah, they're really trying to swarm the forum again. It's a good sign really:)

[-] 1 points by Reneye (118) 2 years ago

Very observant! I see this tactic used frequently on my threads as well. That's when you know that you've rattled someone's cage and that you are on the right track. I do my best to fix it when I see it, and then keep going strong on that same track.

[-] 5 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Conundrum ?

Let me help you with this.

The voice of the people have been very low tone for many years .. We the people were very complacent.. We would listen and watch .. but never say anything.. OWS changed that.

We the people are finding our voice thanks to OWS.

From the begining OWS was about the first amendment .. peacefully assmbly .. expressing grievance and petitioning the government. That hasn't changed.

Up until OWS we had elected representatives .. placed them in their chair and basically abandoned them.. where they sat.. with no further support from us , we the people". Corporations knew this and fully aware of the vulnerabilities in congress.. vulnerabilities which we the people were responsible for creating with our own complacency. That has all changed, or rather begining to change. Through the petitions we sign and grievances we express , we will give strength to the congress we elect.

We can turn this around. With the effort of democracy is all this will take.

Believe in the heart of the people and the heart of congress , and you will see the enemy is a small majority. A small majority that we have "let " rule over us . We had the power to stop this all along.

And last, Thank you again to all the efforts given by OWS and all its founders and supporters .. we wouldnot have come this far without their without all their hard work and determination to make this movement a reality. :-]

[-] 5 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Very nice.

[-] 3 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

We all have our moments. Mine was earlier today, when I said to one of the supervisors , "don't ever tell me what language to use when I speak to you!" as I pointed my finger at his chest/ head [ he was sitting down so hard to tell for sure .. it was waivering ]. We had spoken a few minutes earlier on the phone about something I felt he had offended me by. I had used a bit of vulgarity on him. So I actually drove down to the office and walked right over to his desk .. lol and did the deed. later his supervisor offered to look into it for me..

now there's a whole conumdrum !

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Good for you!!!

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Kicken ass and takin names. You did have fun today.

[-] 3 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

I may have some "anarchy-blood " in my veins.. pray-tell ?

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I'LL settle for the fact that you didn't take shit. That is the attitude we need to spread.

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I second and third that motion! It's high time we talked back in ways they won't forget!

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Thanks GK - we are on the right track - now we just got to keep up with what we are doing.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yes we are, my friend! Yes we are!

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Hence all of the demented trolls and their unbelievable BS.

[-] 3 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

suddenly it hit me .."fight -back" that's what they were referring too !

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I believe in fighting back but you lost me on the rest of the reference on the dawning moment. Sorry I am old, and also somewhat slow at times. Please give me some more detail on "they" and the talk it sounds like a good moment of self discovery/insight.

[-] 3 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

They being ows.. I once asked jart the purpose of this movement .. the reply. "to fight back"

..I now see it as opposed to "do nothing"

Fighting back takes courage .. I hope I don't have to do it again :-/

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

It gets easier as you go - but is always scary. You will get to like that feeling. Why? It lets you know that you are truly alive. Joy is also good for that as well. So I plan on experiencing joy with every success no matter how small.

[-] 2 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Alive .. and maybe without a job tomorrow ! :-//

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

There is always that - But ask your self this do you feel good about having stood up for yourself? Would you want to work somewhere that abused you? I know you need the income - we all do - but there are those who actually feel good about going to work - don't you want your place of business to be like that? And if you lost that job because of an asshole and the assholes boss - do you think that in the long run that might not be so bad? as it got you out of there and perhaps into a better situation?

[-] 2 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

..well since you put it that way..

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Hold off on the celebration for the moment - but if you were asked not to leave that is very good. One of My Sisters lives in Forest Lake, nice area.


[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1340) 2 minutes ago

Well, maybe I should go out and celebrate.. instead of moping around. lol

I am thinking of ordering some wooden jigsaw puzzles up from your neck of the woods.. forest lake.. peaceful puzzles .. always enjoyed doing them. ↥like ↧dislike permalink

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

That is the way to do it. New supers always or nearly always are a pain in the ass as they need to mark their territory - unfortunately many take that literally and piss on every thing. Sometimes though their boss sees it and recognize the error. Then that new super says bye bye. I hope this will be your case as you say it is a good job.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Well, maybe I should go out and celebrate.. instead of moping around. lol

I am thinking of ordering some wooden jigsaw puzzles up from your neck of the woods.. forest lake.. peaceful puzzles .. always enjoyed doing them.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Thing is always be aware, take note of what is going on around you and consider what you might contribute politely/considerately as input or feedback. Communication does not have to be confrontation. I hope you have not lost your job if it is a good one at a good company, I hope instead that your supervisors boss is a good and wise boss. There are some of those out there.

[-] 3 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Yes, it is a pretty good company.. the big boss asked me not to leave.

Recently a new supervisor was hired and promoted .. and is trying to make changes. He gave everyone a tiny monthly bonus, and a bunch of new hoops and hurdles to jump through.. I guess I am getting to old for hoops.[ or kiss @ss ]. I lost my bonus :-] .. a while ago he made everyone take anything personal off their desks.. ! the place looked like it went bankrupt .. so I don't think he has many friends left.. they may even be silently cheering me on ..

It's quite a thing when it comes to a confrontation .. which was why I refused to step into the office alone with him .. best someone else is present. So I said my piece and walked out.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Hey, it sounds like your supervisor is going DOWN BABY . . .DOWN!

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Very well said! Thanks.

[-] 5 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

We must now shift from protest alone to being alliance builders, to form the separate anti-establishment fingers in American society into a unified fist.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Alliance building with pro establishment groups is not a good idea then. Reach out to individuals, and you dont need groups.

Which city are you working in?

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6763) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

yeah keep us small, that's your plan

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

"us" and has probably never even been.

And if you had, you would realize that your pro Dem stuff has done nothing but hurt it. The numbers dont lie.

But you do.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6763) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

tell one lie I've told, but now you've told one liar

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

The numbers are down. Are you saying they aren't?

It was greater in Sept and Oct before mainstream idiots like you got involved.

Are you denying that too?

Because that is what you are insinuating by saying that partnering up will keep "us" small.

Partnering with pro establishment groups hurts, not helps.

And in order to be an "us" you have to actually support your local Occupy.

Which one is that again?

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6763) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

this sounds like a bunch of your lies, I don't see anything in there I have said, except maybe that fact that you spend all your time onsite putting out divisive stuff designed to weaken OWS that is true, if you want to prove a lie, you need to cut and paste, but your job is telling lies, keeping the movement from disloging your 1% buddies.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

"1% buddies".... Im going to go out on a limb and say that I am probably worse off financially than you are.

Im trying to get stuff going in the mess that your generation has created with your apathetic lesser of evils approach. Its a new day dude. Direct democracy, no parties, tons of parties, etc. Look at this structural mess your generation created. I hope you dont value your medicare and SS too much, because they are going to start slashing that soon too.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6763) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

hey don't leave out the Nader voters long as your blaming people don't forget the traitors

that's right your callin a consitutional convenation, guess you will run that all by yourself since nobody can meet your standers

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

My only standard is people think for themselves. I understand that you have been raised in a two party belief system for your whole life, and I understand that you will remain in that, regardless of what others may create as alternative options.

And that is ok. I just wish more were willing to do something different.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6763) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I wish you could understand I have both a mind and a memory

2000 NEVER AGAIN!!

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

The bottom line is the more people that are active, the better. We obviously disagree on how to move forward, but if more people were involved in general, we would be much better off.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I'm working in Biloxi, Mississippi.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

The number of comments on this thread tells me that the 1% are scared witless of the 99%, and are working double-time to divide us. Don't listen! If we can't even unite with our closest political allies then what chance do we have of really being the 99%? The thing about politics is that success creates converts, unity drives unity, Numbers build momentum.

That is what they are doing everything in their power here to prevent.

[-] 3 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

I'll say that any Con who dares to argue this, I'm ready to rumble!!

The damn RepubliCons have been fighting public welfare since forever. And fighting for Private Welfare all along!!

Right in front of us!!!! WTF!!!!

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

The right-wing conspiracy isn't hidden. It's right in front of our faces. All we need to do is become cognizant of what's actually going on.

[-] 3 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Hiding in plain sight, I think. It could be that many less discerning folks just think that RW is what all pols look like. Definitely what the anarchists perceive.

While we take their RW obviousness for granted. Another trick-the-masses victory for the RW. More work for us. Do you get the idea that there are a lot of lazy people out there?

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

The real conspiracy is this circle jerk that is happening right in front of MY face, where you are more concerned with attacking than you are holding the one you ACTUALLY VOTE FOR accountable.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6763) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

good post,

The GOP is a ticking time bomb, as soon as it goes off a new party will leap out within a year or two, I actually think this can be done.

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I aree with this also. About half of the Republican party is insane with greed. The other half is insane with Religion. These two forms of insanity make a volitile and not very unified explosive.

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (6763) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

If they lose some elections this fall they will trun on each other with their super pacs like in the primary look at how their ratings went down in every state they ran in, they will eat each other, we just need to sprinkle a little seasoning

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

They've really gone beyond an agenda that is palatable even to mainstream Americans, and we can take thorough advantage of that, and really flip American politics on it's head if we get organized. That was the whole point from the begining unless I'm mistaken. In other words, we can WIN!

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

"As soon as its gone"....

The D and R parties have been here for a century because of sheep like you. The other side is just as determined to ATTACK instead of hold the other accounbtable, as you are.

Thanks for playing their games and ruining the country. Have fun endorsing innocent people getting killed this year. You fuckin sell out.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6763) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

It's paid hacks like you that keep them alive, troll.

[-] -2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Says the one that vouching for more wars......

You are the troll, and those that are active in Occupy know this. Like I said before, please go to a GA and speak your pro Dem bullshit.

When are you going to a GA anyways?......

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6763) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I thought I had to buy a ticket from you before I could go.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Nope, its open to anyone who cares about getting the money out, ending the corruption and wars, and uniting the people from all views and spectrums.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6763) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

You see that's where you lose me, I don't need to unite with the supports of lower taxes for the rich and more for the 1%.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

There is a lot of brainwahsing that goes on both "sides" -think about that, how they pit each other against each other on every freakin issue- and hence leads to the continuing nonsense.

About 40% of the nation will either believe or disbelieve anything that FOX says, and thats a shame, because they barely scrape the edge of the real issues.

You will find at most tea party rallies that the main topic less taxation of the people, not the corporations. The stuff you posted is usually just media fluff, not representative of the voters.

Just like FOX likes to paint occupy as a bunch of lazy slugs that want everything for free.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6763) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

See that's why I keep it simple, look at the long term. Over the long term, the top tax rates have gone down; the rich have taken control of more and more of our country. Those that are willing to raise their taxes understand who’s been making out and who’s been paying the bill. So it really is simple get rid of all the no new taxes people and fix the problem. Simple really.

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 2 years ago

How do we recognise whom to trust?

Can you propose a simple test format/list option that we could use to confirm whether or not a politician of either party is what they say they are?

It's a tough one, I know.

[-] 5 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

There are a number of left-wing pressure groups that have focused upon pushing the Democrats back to representing the interests of the people, and these groups have largely been ignored by the center-right Democrats who currently control the party. One of these is moveon.org, which has over five million members. That is why I found it very ironic that while we were being courted by Ron Paul and the Tea Party (our clear opponents) people were worried about being coopted by moveon.org.

There are established left-wing organizations in America, and we should work with them. If we cannot cooperate with these groups, and push them further to the left, than I think our power will dwindle.

Furthermore, as far as individual politicians are concerned, we need to study the voting records of our representitives, and vote for the more progressive choice. If they are both terrible we should cast a protest vote, but only I think in the worst possible cases. This is what Americans should have been doing all along, but most opted for disengagement.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 2 years ago

When you say "push them further to the left" are you not concerned with being perceived as being too radical?

These days, anywhere left of centre seems to be considered to be a little too radical, for whatever reason the corporate media says (not that I agree personally), and centrism seems to be more like what is acceptable, more widely.

Are these labels (centre, left, and right) even valid in the current political climate? The left is swinging even further to the right, and only the exteme right seems to fit the category of the extremist these days; a handle that was usually reserved only for the far leftists.

I'll have to read up on this moveon.org group. I was of the opinion (formed from comment here) that they are not who they purport to be.

Will get back to you on this one, GypsyKing.

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I think the mood of the counrty is rapidly shifting to the radical, at least to the extent that sanity has come to be perceived as radical in America over the last 50 years.

In any case, thanks, I will be interested to hear your opinion.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

There is nothing radical about getting money out of politics, stopping the federal reserve and the banks, and getting the people to wake the fuck up.

That is why this was so popular in the beginning. Its not as much now because the pro Dems are shifting in and destroying what we have, which WAS a diverse crowd that supported the above.

Remember, the biggest voting bloc in America is the one that doesnt vote because they see them all as criminals, and rightly so.

Thats what happens when you put the same two parties in power for a century.

[-] 1 points by Misaki (893) 2 years ago

So the question becomes, "How can we actually achieve reform?"

Despite our hopes and wishes for an easily comprehended solution, the answer is very complex, because that nauture of the problem itself is very complex.

Wrong, the answer is incredibly simple, despite that the problem is complex. This is explains how to fix unemployment, and contains links that explain how it would also fix the other problems you mention: If you are poor, it's because you want to be or because you're stupid.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

This whole post has been too much! Since when did Occupy Wall St. become the attack dog for the Republican Party? That's exactly what these a--holes are trying to turn it into with their incessant focus on the "evils" of the Democratic Party! This is just unbelieveable sheer bullshit, and it's really beginning to piss me off!

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

somehow we must convince the American people to come out of their political isolation and face the reality that they have lost the ability to control their Democracy. It's restoration can't be based on politics, right or left, liberal or conservative. It must be based on a clear understanding of the root causes of it's theft and an effective remedy devised to once again put the people in charge. As long as they put their politics ahead of the most basic principles of Democracy, a government of the people, they will possess neither.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

We are trying to come up with an effective remedy, and that necessarily involves looking at reality and devising a process to get from here to there. I remember this same argument among people in 1968, when left-wing Democrats were disgusted with Humphry (and rightly so in my opinion). The left wing of the party didn't vote and the rest is history. We went from leaders like Roosevelt and Kennedy to leaders like Reagan and Bush.

For OWS to succed it needs a favorable political climate to do so, and a Republican win would put that out of reach.

[-] 1 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

I enjoy reading your posts and usually agree with you. You make many good points in this post but I disagree with the main premise of settling for voting for democrats. The time has come for us to awaken the world that our two party system is actually a one party system and non violent revolution is now necessary.

Realistically, you are probably right to assume that we may not be able to win elections this year, but we must at least set the stage for the future. We will be able to go it alone in the future because we will awaken enough people to the point that we will have the votes. We are the 99%!

[-] 0 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Really, I'm not saying we should "settle" for Democrats, I am saying that electing them, as many as possible, and as progressive as possible, is a necessary expiedency to prevent this movement from being crushed, and to give it time to develop. I remember Kent State, and our current Batch of Repubs. makes Nixon look like a social left-winger. We can thank Obama that the Army hasn't been called out, and if you don't believe that just look at Kent State, and the pension massacre in the 1930s. I am advocating it simply as a necessary measure out of self-defense because we can't form a viable third party in time and we can't afford to throw away our vote.

[-] 1 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

I don't believe we should consider it a necessary measure out of self defense. If democrats get our vote, they will just take advantage of it, and it will be more of the same. There is only one party.

We should encourage as many voters as possible to vote, but not for a democrat or republican. We will not be crushed because we are becoming the 99%.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I remember when they brought out the rifles in '72. Don't downplay the effect that has on people, how it feels to face down armed troops.

This is not a game. We are talking about power, who weilds it and who does not. This is no time for illusions. We need to recognize reality and use EVERY means available to turn the tide.

Do you think this is a game, and when it's over you can just go home again?

I wish I could slap you in the face with a wet towel.

[-] 1 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

I am not under any illusions that this is a game, and we are definitely talking about power being in hands other than the people. Focusing on the differences between democrats and republicans is over. There is only one party.

I remember Kent State. The power of the famous photograph touched Americans in a way that I'll never forget. It touched people in the military and the police forces also. For this revolution to succeed, we need Americans to feel this way again, without experiencing the tragedy of deaths.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I agree completely, with the thrust of what you are saying here, but what we need is a plan to reform the system, and I don't think that is possible without working both within and without of the existing political process.

[-] 2 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

Working within the existing political process eventually means confronting, "political realities". These political realities will not change until the 99% are recognized as powerful enough. I cherish the day in the future when politicians realize that they covet our support over the existing powers that be.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Well said. We are in complete agreement about goals at any rate. All I have been trying to communicate with this post is that we must use whatever means are available to reach that day, and that we must work from the point of what actually IS to get there.

I have been surprized that such a stance has proven so controversial.

[-] 1 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

We do agree about goals. You passionately feel that "progress" would be achieved by electing more democrats. I believe progress will only be reached when enough people wake up to the fact that there is only one party.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I am hoping people will do exactly that (wake up) and I think now that is a real possibility. This spring and summer should tell the tale, but I have been waiting for Americans to wake up for over 40 years, and so I think we need to have a backup plan, and that would be essentially to occupy the Democratic Party in the next election, and then create a third party.

That is what I have been advocating, and I think the only reason it's proven so controversial is because our opponents really don't like it.

[-] 1 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

Successful revolutions don't need backup plans.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yes, that's because things always go according to plan.

[-] 1 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

Any plan other than uniting the 99% is a distraction.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Wow, what a truely Orwellian response. And by uniting the 99% you mean excluding all those who now belong to a major political party? How much of the 99% do you expect to unite at that rate? Does what you just said even make ANY sense?

Just a few retorical questions.

[-] 2 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

My thoughts were uniting the 99% should be our primary goal. I'm not for excluding anyone! I believe distractions will delay the tipping point of awareness that will be necessary for a future goal we desire, (politicians coveting our support more than the current powers that be).

[-] -2 points by vvvpr (0) 2 years ago

It's controversial because it is the slimiest form of co-optation...

"Democrats and "99% Spring" listen carefully: One cannot simultaneously be the problem and solve the problem."

https://twitter.com/#!/Mike_Peake/status/193748509009256449

[-] -2 points by vvvpr (0) 2 years ago

Why would you be surprised [no z] your efforts to co-opt OWS into the Democratic Party and corrupt two-party politics by "boiling the frogs" in this forum would prove so controversial, poser?

[-] -2 points by vvvpr (0) 2 years ago

As a Democratic Party operative, of course you don't think anything is possible with working with the "existing political process", ie. the corporate controlled, corrupt and failed two-party system.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Wow, I have my own personal troll now. It's weird, but kind of flattering.

[-] 0 points by vvvpr (0) 2 years ago

ForumSpeak: The True Meanings of "Spam", "Troll" and "Karma":

spam : Any forum posting that (a) conflicts with either the forum moderators' agenda or groupthink consensus; or (b) any other forum member disagrees with, doesn't like, fears or otherwise does not wish to see posted.

troll : Any forum member who posts "spam" as defined above.

karma : A numerical measure of forum groupthink contribution, conformity and compliance that says nothing about the virtues of the poster or the veracity of their postings.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Who came up with these definitions? Could it perhaps be YOU? I find your little thing here to be a nice example of MIND CONTROL. In fact, I'm begining to wonder if you're not simply another reincarnation of Thrasymaque.

This comment is suspiciously thrasymaqueesque.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist that rediculous verbal conglomerate. LOL!

[-] -2 points by vvvpr (0) 2 years ago

Posers like you should take care using words and phrases you don't fully understand...

[-] -2 points by vvvpr (0) 2 years ago

And are you not the one who always complains about threats and fear-mongering? Hypocrite...

[-] 1 points by Johnw (44) 2 years ago

Here is an idea for a new third party based on surveys. Please read and understand that the idea fits exactly the concerns many have expressed on this forum and others. http://thenewthirdparty.blogspot.com

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Great, but it will have to wait till after November. Sorry, but I remember how Ralph Nadar inadvertantly screwed us in 2000. Anybody who thinks we'd be here now if Gore was elected couldn't see the broad side of a barn with bi-focals.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6763) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

you must be doing something right, cause man they hate you (too)

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Well, we'll just have to share that honor. LOL!!!

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6763) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

a good sunday morning read

[-] 0 points by bobgnote (-55) 2 years ago

We need an army of attorneys, who know how to litigate in both state and US Courts. These need to sue down the riot of profiteering government and corporate colluders, efficiently. Problem is, how to get an attorney to attack his own RICO-connected bar association, other agency, or corporate cartel.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Very good point. Maybe graduating law students who haven't already been bought.

[-] -1 points by bobgnote (-55) 2 years ago

Eventually, some lawyers will have to serve, to keep or regain the peace. We are on tighter and tighter timelines, in the US, as the riotw of profiteers will continue as the planet heats up, and as the planet heats up, we entertain risks, of simultaneous bouts of cyclonic storms, with volcanic events. And then, we might also eat some debacle, related to support for zionist organized crime, which started wars way back in 1886, related to the 1882 invasion of Palestine, see KHARTOUM, when Charlton Heston as "Gordon Pasha" gets his head lopped. He also plays a guy defending Vienna, during the Ottoman invasion, and darned if Chuck doesn't lose his noggin, in that movie, as well. Zionism is nasty organized crime, and don't think the world will tolerate this nuisance, then or now.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Wow, you're not wearing antenna, are you?

[-] 0 points by bobgnote (-55) 2 years ago

I watch Democracy Now! on PBS and Russia Today News, on alternative channels. As for my big ears, that's all they are, is big ears.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Good for you! First thing - turn off the tube!

[-] -3 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

You Demopublican regime plants will propose ANYTHING ... no matter how ridiculous ... so long as it kicks the can down the road long enough to postpone revolution and sucker OWS back into the corporate fascist-controlled two-party fold, won't you?

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Bold letters don't hide the fact that you haven't proposed a viable counter argument.

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Democrats and "99% Spring" listen carefully: One cannot simultaneously be the problem and solve the problem.

https://twitter.com/#!/Mike_Peake/status/193748509009256449

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Not if one is too stupid to understand political reality, anyway.

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

You see others as "too stupid to understand political reality" while others see you as too sick, scared or sold-out to change it.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I think "sick, scared or sold out" is a projection on your part.

[-] -1 points by vvvpr (0) 2 years ago

"Too stupid to understand political reality" certainly was on yours...

[-] 0 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

You guys confuse the hell out of me. From the home page of this website, and since October, when I joined this site, this is what I believed OWS was about:

"Occupy Wall Street is a leaderless resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%."

But since I have been participating on the forums here I find that in practice this is not so. You do not accept people of all political persuasions and push the Democratic Party.

Even being an left leaning Independent, has put me in hot water here, because of the strict partisanship that exists with some members here.... don't tow the Democratic Party line (which I don't, that's why I'm an Independent... I don't tow either party line) and you get labeled a troll by the more rabid here.

I have had interesting debates with members here, and have grown to increase my awareness on some political issues -

But which is it? Is OWS nonpartisan or not?

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

OWS is non partisan, it's members are welcome to be.

Modern man, is after all a political animal..................:)

At which point, being nonpolitical, is political.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

I tend to believe that one can be nonpartisan and political together. As you state man is a political animal, politics in its broadest definition is just the interaction between people.

If the primary goal is to eliminate corruption of the government, one does not need to be partisan to do this, actually being nonpartisan would be an asset.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Nonpartisan is still a political position.

In a political context, it's a cop out.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

No its not. I believe that OWS strongest tool is taking the issue to the streets. The powers that be both D and R fear that the most. We can put a lot of pressure on the existing system from the outside through civil unrest.

Government is reactionary by nature. With enough pressure, like the May 1 GS, huge demonstrations at the DNC and RNC, they will start to listen for ways to shut us up. That is political action without being partisan.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Like I said, OWS as an organization is nonpartisan, and as an organization, it acts in a nonpartisan way, as do the participants.

I like that about them.

Yet even the essential anarchists at the core are political and that makes them partisan.

It's not a bad thing, it just is. We, as individuals are political.

By the way, I say essential anarchists, because I believe their partisanship to anarchy will help keep us all honest.

We are all political, we are all partisan to our personal politics.

To limit partisanship to the two "parties", is to think inside their box.

I don't know if it's still true, but OWS at one time vowed to field political candidates by 2016.

Someday, that politic will need to be defined.

Seen through the currently accepted right/left paradigm, where do you think it will fall?

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I look at it this way ( I agree with your comment ).

America is the melting pot in a good way.

Occupy is the same it can be no other way and represent America.

Diversity makes us strong as we unite in common cause.

[-] 0 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

"I don't know if it's still true, but OWS at one time vowed to field political candidates by 2016. Someday, that politic will need to be defined. Seen through the currently accepted right/left paradigm, where do you think it will fall?"

If this forum is any indicator, then decidedly left.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I didn't ask for an opinion of the forum.

I asked what you think.

PS: If you've ever been here during hard troll invasion, you wouldn't know what to make of it..........:)

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

I think left, but I may be influenced with having only seen OWS-Charlotte.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I'm not towing any party line. I am saying that if the Republicans are elected we're fucked. That seems easy enough to see.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

I see the possibility of the converse as well, if the Dems are elected we are still fucked. It may be the lesser of two evils argument, but either way we are fucked.

[-] 0 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

If we can create a Democratic sweep in the next elections then Occupy will have a place within the political spectrum. If the Republicans win, well there's always the national guard, as in Kent State, only this time probably a lot more bullets. You think these guys are better than Nixon? They are even worse.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Turning Occupy into a pro Dem and anti tea thing will get you this reaction from those that are actually there.....

FUCK YOU, YOU WAR LOVING PIG.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Actually, I am a long time peace activist. Are you suggesting letting the Repubs. win will solve the war problem? Further, most peace activists I've known aren't quite so hostile as you are.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Sorry about that, I think that was intended for Epa or factsrfun.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Wow, an aplology. I'm speechless.

But still, I'm on their side:)

[-] -3 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Yes, "GypsyKing". You are obviously on the side of the Demopublicans and the greedy war profiteers who control them.

[-] -1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

What drives the Occupy movement is a widespread belief that direction is the only option open to us, that there is no realistic possibility of change through the electoral process. If you are now suggesting that we can't change the system through direct action you have basically closed off all options and are suggesting that the system cannot be changed. My own feeling is that to suggest that Occupy retreat to a position of electoralism is likely to be treated to a response of "been there done that."

We are not talking about going it alone. And we are not talking about reforming the system. We are talking about building a movement of the 99% and overthrowing the system. That's what revolution means after all. Of course this will probably take decades and perhaps several lifetimes, but for now we'll have to see where we stand after the International May Day General Strike.

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Once again, RedJazz, I have to take issue with you here.

As we have talked about before, engaging in the electoral process is not an abdication of direct action. One can do both.

As to reformers versus revolutionaries, you yourself have conceded that OWS has welcomed, from its inception, both. Chomsky himself, hardly a party partisan, has recommended reform and see it as being possible. Does he, too, betray the movement in your eyes?

I believe that OWS's greatest strength is its inclusiveness. Revolutionaries, reformers, liberals, anarchists, are ALL supporters and participants. Disparaging reformers does not advance the cause, but only serves to diminish its numbers. It is in uniting these various factions that OWS has any chance of either short or long term success.

[-] 0 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

What drove the Occupy movement, what was responsible for its early great successes, was broad general agreement that the electoral system had failed us and that direct action was the only avenue open to us. I agreed with that perspective then and I still agree with it. From that perspective, to go back to electoralism would not only be a retreat, it would be to go to a strategy about which there was already broad agreement that it was a failed strategy. That simply makes no sense. Why retreat to a strategy which we have advanced from precisely because we saw it as a failed strategy? Why engage in a strategy about which there is broad consensus in the movement is a failed strategy? That, is seems to me, would not only be an act of political cynicism, but totally irrationale. It makes no sense to try something that nearly every activist in Occupy agrees is a failed strategy.

I do think that Occupy has to be a movement that unites reformers and radicals, but I think the basis of that unity is broad agreement on the Occupy strategy of direct action.

[-] 5 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Again, I am not advocating for the elimination of direct action, not do I believe OWS exists for any other purpose.

But you accused someone here of advocating its REPLACEMENT with electoralism, and that's simply not true. It is not an accurate characterization of those who advocate direct action in OWS AND voting in ADDITION to their activity in OWS. Not GypsyKing, not DKAtoday, not Shooz, nor I advocate the retreat you describe. Not one of us (and many others) has even once suggested that OWS itself become involved in electoral politics. If it were otherwise, I would have no issue with your conclusion, but it is based on a flawed premise.

What we, or at least I, am saying is perhaps more nuanced. I am saying that given that OWS is a broad movement of the entire left, not limited to revolutionaries and anarchists, people coming here to shame others into not voting because it is not a "pure" enough thing to do are betraying the spirit of that movement and making it weaker. Trying actively to get people NOT to vote is hardly the same as simply advocating direct action. The latter is positive, the former is divisive. NO ONE should be made to feel "less than" if they choose to vote, NO ONE should be accused of being, as I have, a "war monger" for voting, and several posters on these fora have been busting their humps to try to inspire shame about voting. THAT'S what I object to.

If your argument was in opposition to those who want to turn OWS into a party organ of any sort, I would be standing right beside you shouting "STOP!" But no one is advocating that. Some of us, however, strongly object to the attempt to psychologically disenfranchise, shame and abuse those who choose to vote in addition to supporting OWS. They do so by declaring, spontaneously, that "both parties are the same, and voting for either one strengthens corruption and the war machine, and the 1%, etc." and "if you vote, you are corrupt".

It is nothing more that a form of bullying.

I know that you have not done so. Let me repeat that: I know you have not done so. But I sure wish you would stop defending those who do.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Thank you for that impassioned and intelligent defense of occupy and it's possible strategies for success. Yes we are not limited - We are like this country - a melting pot. The diversity of members and actions make the movement against corruption strong.

We move forward together in mixed diversity. This Is America!!!!!!!!!

[-] 2 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

I do not believe that sophisticated groups like MoveOn would be so crass as to propose Occupy replace direct action with electoralism. Rather, what it seeks to do is put the direct action ideology of Occupy in the service of the Democratic Party or particular Democratic campaigns. This is a first step toward eviserating the movement to the point where its direct actionism would become increasingly ritualized. The labor movement is of course a good example of this where picket lines today are highly symbolic and ritualized which was not the case before labor became so subordinated to the DP.

One does not have to be a revolutionary or an anarchist to believe that electoralism as currently organized has run its course as a vehicle of reform. Certainly that is exactly the position of Ralph Nader and Chris Hedges, who are hardly revolutionaries. It is the postion of Naomi Klein, who may be a revolutioanry, but she doesn't advertise it or bandy about that label. Michael Moore is essentially on the edge of such a position. Undoubtedly most Green Party activists would not characterize themselves as revolutionaries, yet they have given up on the two party system and in fact the whole mass base of Occupy which is variously liberal or without a well formed political ideology shares this skepticism about electoral politics. As a radical, I think this skepticism is healthy and to abandon it to return to electoralism in any way would, in my mind, constitute a retreat.

Of course many, perhaps most, Occupy activists will vote. Many of them will vote for Obams. Others will vote Green or for some other inconsequential third party candidate. That is not really the point. The point is what will Occupy do as a movement. Right now it sees itself as a direct action movement that takes no position on electoral politics. Given the level of political maturity of the movement as a movement, that is a position that I support and will fight to maintain.

I personally do not see attacks on voting or electoralism as attacks on individuals who choose to vote. I choose to vote and I don't feel personally threatened by such attacks. It seems to me that people who are choosing to interpret such attacks as attacks on their personal behavior are so bound up in the issue of voting themselves that they tend to view what is essentially a political attack as a personal attack. There are, for example many Green Party activists and to a lesser extent activists in tiny socialist sects who are running their own candidates for President who don't feel especiall put upon by a perspective that sees the two party system as corrupt. The real issue here is the historical tendency of the Democratic Party in particular to co-opt and eviserate social movements. Supporters of such a strategy tend to view such a evolution as the "maturing" of social movements, of a natural tendency to come to terms with the system over time. I don't see it that way. It is a constant challenge. There is no predicting how or when or even if a popular movement might be successfully co-opted by Democratic Party electoralism. All we know is that it has happened in different ways and in different tempos, to every movement since the Populists and as such constitutes the biggest internal threat to any social movement, certainly bigger than any direct threat from either the extreme right or from irresponsible and anarchist elements within the movement itself. Steering this course between sectarianism and opportunism is no easy task and not one that any social movement of the last 100 years has done successfully. Nevertheless, that is the challenge we face.

[-] 4 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Thank you for a well thought out response.

I would only say that perhaps you have not ben reading many comments on these fora. We who choose to vote are being subjected to attack on an ongoing basis. Being characterized, repeatedly, as a "war monger" for voting against Republicans, is not a discussion on the relative merits of electoralism.

I would disagree with one thing your wrote. Attacking voting per se is an attempt to disenfranchise. Whatever one's personal feeling about the efficacy of voting, disparaging the activity is disparaging the actor. Really, there is no way to get around this basic fact. If it is declared to be unethical (not ineffective, but morally wrong) to vote, what does that make the voter?

Nor is it necessary to do on any level in order to further the cause of direct action. The importance of direct action is not only self-evident (especially to those of us who are already here of their own accord), but also need not be justified by ridiculing the electoral process. It is possible to support both activities in good faith. One activity need not be put down in order for another to be propped up. Each has its relative merits and each has its relative weaknesses. You don't have hate apples in order to love oranges. And, once again, those of us who advocate voting are not advocating an abandonment of direct action.

Many here do not exhibit your equanimity, and refuse to acknowledge that the motivation behind our stance is to make things better, not worse. In fact, they actively disparage such efforts going so far as to label anyone who votes for a Democrat as a fascist. It doesn't get more personal than that. Much, MUCH more importantly, it doesn't get much more divisive than that. That divisiveness hurts the movement.

We will certainly also disagree about the issue of co-option, but I believe we know each other's positions about that enough that we need not rehash it.

Finally, let me repeat here what I wrote to you privately: although we have these disagreements with each other, I believe these are disagreements in good faith, and both of us are doing what we feel is the best we can do to help make a better world.

[-] 0 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

I think I have kept up fairly well with this debate. My own perception, which is of course based on my own point of view and my own biases is that the attacks on electoralism herein have not for the most part been attacks on the personal behavior of any movement activist, but rather are raised out of historically based political concerns and that people who take them as personal attacks are confusing a political attack with a challenge to personal behavior, which I do not believe is the case, or at least that is not how I have read the debate. In my experience this is quite consistent with an attachment to the Democratic Party which tends to consistently confuse the personal and the political which is yet another aspect of the mechanism of co-optation.

[-] 4 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

About someone who votes: "see you as too sick, scared or sold-out"

Another: "You Demopublican regime plants "

Another: "Have fun endorsing innocent people getting killed this year. You fuckin sell out."

There have been dozens upon dozens like these. The three I just listed are a fraction from this thread ALONE.

Still want to tell me that these are not personal attacks and are only a "historically based concerns"? Really?

[-] 3 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

I'm not defending this sort of thing, but in my experience the net and net list serves tend to lend themselves to this kind of hyperbole. I've seen it directed against me, and embarrassing to say, I've sometime decended into it myself. I find it troubling where ever it comes from. The odd thing is, it is certainly no way to win someone over, and that, it seems to me, is what we should be all about, a civil discourse intended to win people over. How in the world else can we expect to win a majority to our point of view? So there is always a lot of anger here directed at nearly everyone and anyone who disagrees with you at all. I've had this sort of thing directed at me. I always try to figure out what is driving the other guy's anger. None of us are the 1% after all, not even the most hostile of trolls. They wouldn't be wasting their time on a forum like this. So it's like George Carlin said about the 1%. They want us to keep fighting amongst ourselves so we don't direct our anger towaard them, That doesn't mean we are going to agree on everything, but it does mean we really need to respect each other's humanity. Unfortunately that is more easily said than done.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Imagine that. People dont like voters that endorse war criminals.

Shocking.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Imagine that, people don't like divisive ignorant snot nosed little shits who are themselves supporting war criminals, are too stupid to see it, and are arrogant enough to accuse others while letting themselves completely off the hook.

Shocking.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Just remember, you are endorsing this stuff when you cast it for the Duopoly...

Romney and Obama are not choices, they are punishments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phrXBQZg_AU

"Be the change you wish to see"

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Your inability to distinguish differences, your unwillingness to understand consequences is on the level of a pre-adolescent.

"Be the change you want to see" is a phrase coined by Ghandi, an activist who consistently negotiated with the British. He had no problem working within the system as well as from outside of it. He did not insist on the level false ideological purity you do. His goal was change, not hatred.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

You are arguing with people who have never even been. Its like arguing with a blind man about the color to paint your house.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

Struck me more as a discussion than an argument, which it is perfectly possible to carry on with one's self, so it really doesn't matter if they have never been or not.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

No, you are advocating a false dichotomy, and that is the only thing you have done here for months. You might be right, there may be enough people willing to participate in direct action that forming alliances and working both direct action and the political process is unnecessary. But if that fails to occurr, to just give up and go home - that isn't for me. We need to win this thing one way or the other!

[-] -1 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Democrats and "99% Spring" listen carefully: One cannot simultaneously be the problem and solve the problem.

Retweeted by #OccupyLA

https://twitter.com/#!/Mike_Peake/status/193748509009256449

[-] -3 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Still pitching for Bushbama, huh GypsyKing (6255)?

6255! Hope you're getting your 30 pieces of silver, Judas...

Whatever... Why don't you start selling Obama buttons online here like "99% Spring" does at their "training" sessions?

http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/04/15/is_99_spring_co-opting_ows_into_our_corrupt_2-party_system

I would ask you what part of this posting you didn't understand, GypsyKing, but I have every reason to believe you are not only part of the problem but paid for being so:

http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/01/04/american_elections_false_choices_hiding_other_false_choices

My informed estimation is that you're no more a "Gypsy King" than I am a Ballet Dancer. But keep pitching your intentionally dumbed-down propaganda. One way or another- shadow banned weekly, daily, hourly or by the post - we will counter with FACTS. Like these:

Obama signed NDAA 2012.

Obama signed HR658.

Obama signed HR347.

Obama signed HR3606.

United Technologies: Black Hawks for Brunei & Billions from a Boondoggle

http://veritasvirtualvengeance.com/2012/01/25/united-technologies-black-hawks-for-brunei-billions-from-a-boondoggle/

Chevron Oil: Big Boat for Condi, Big Bucks for Bushbama

http://veritasvirtualvengeance.com/2012/02/04/chevron-oil-big-boat-for-condi-big-bucks-for-bushbama/

Occupy Australia! Bushbama trades unearned Nobel Peace Prize for Salesman-of-the-Year Trophy from U.S. Defense Contractors

http://veritasvirtualvengeance.com/2012/01/21/occupy-australia-bushbama-trades-unearned-nobel-peace-prize-for-salesman-of-the-year-trophy-from-u-s-defense-contractors/

Mediagopoly: The Megacorps that Control Mainstream Media and Much More

http://veritasvirtualvengeance.com/2012/01/08/mediagopoly-the-megacorps-that-control-mainstream-media-and-much-more/

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

After we bury the Republicans in a landslide, then we can bury the Democrats. That's the only way we can do it, and furthermore you know it, Judas.

[+] -4 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

That's confession enough for me. You are an admitted Demopublican infiltrator attempting to sucker Occupy back in to the corrupt and failed two-puppet, one-puppetmaster system. You are agent of the fascists, and a representative of everything we are fighting against. I hope you and I meet personally at some point. In fact, I'll make a special effort to see that we do...

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yeah, I've been posting here since early October, where'd you come from? Joined today? Wow, way to show commitment!

I like it when trolls counter this argument, it just shows what the establishment doesn't want us to understand.

PS Just give me a fly-swatter and I'll meet you any time.

[-] -3 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

You know damn well who you're communicating with, "GypsyKing",

And you know damn well that what we call you out for will not be settled online in a forum or offline with a fly swatter. It WILL be settled in the real world, however. That much, you got right.

[-] 5 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Well for the rest of us who may be wondering - who did you used to be vvvpr2 (0)? Also are you that shallow and unable to defend yourself intellectually that you need to make stupid veiled physical threats?

[+] -4 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Another Demopublican plant promoting rigged elections with false choices and predetermined outcomes:

http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/01/04/american_elections_false_choices_hiding_other_false_choices

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (6055) from Coon Rapids, MN 14 hours ago

Well for the rest of us who may be wondering - who did you used to be vvvpr2 (0)? Also are you that shallow and unable to defend yourself intellectually that you need to make stupid veiled physical threats? ↥like ↧dislike reply edit delete permalink


Really?

Your not serious?

I would not have guessed that that was who you are.


[-] -1 points by vvvpr2 (4) 3 hours ago

Another Demopublican plant promoting rigged elections with false choices and predetermined outcomes:

http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/01/04/american_elections_false_choices_hiding_other_false_choices ↥like ↧dislike reply permalink

[-] -3 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Battle for the Soul of Occupy

Jump, jump, jump over the dead body of the old left!

http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/jump.html

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Battle is not needed Occupy is firmly in place all around the world - guess what? It is not about politics it is about issues. Don't worry about Occupy's soul as it is the soul of all good people who are working for a healthy and prosperous world for "ALL".

[-] -3 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Yes, The 99% Spring Is A Fraud:

http://thiscantbehappening.net/node/1126

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You see supporting a common (?) misconception. The only reason occupy and all of the movements against corruption are trying to be tied to promoting democrats is because of all of the very visible repub villans who are standing openly in the way of recovery and progress.

The misconception is that the movements are supporting the democratic party. They are not, there are major problems with them as well but currently "they" are not making open warfare on the public like the repubs in office and the corporations that they support.

NO No no..............Occupy "I" do believe supports the democratic "PROCESS" the process of the government of the people by the people for the people. This is what trolls and the corrupt would like to confuse the public about. Occupy is about positive growth and change through confronting crime and corruption in all of its forms that are tearing down our society and the world.

Occupy is about the people OWNING THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS, the peoples process as stated in the constitution.

[-] 4 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

Very well stated. I'd say the day that occupy openly and publicly, as if a leaderless moment could, support a candidate, that would be the day it'd lose its credibility. I believe it is people who have a vested interest in the 'qou who are the ones most upset that some supporters will vote for their president while being mindful that better things might evolve from this movement long after four years have expired. the way i see it this website and the images i see could all be electioneering. I believe i'll be less of a realist when this movement is still around after November.

[-] 4 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

While I agree with your assessment about endorsing a candidate completely and absolutely, one issue here is those select people, the zealots, who come here specifically to DISPARAGE one.

That is as partisan as an endorsement.

And, in its attempts to psychology disenfranchise the electorate, it serves the one party who would benefit most from that disenfranchisement. Bashing the Democrats is not party neutral, it is not non-partisan. It is its opposite. It is the very definition of partisan.

The second issue is those very same zealots are trying to paint both parties as absolutely indistinguishably identical and equally evil, and hurl insults at those who don't share their views for a VARIETY of reasons. NO ONE should be made to feel ashamed for wanting to vote, to act beyond the parameters of OWS. This movement was always a-political in that ALL revolutionaries, reformers, activists, anarchists, and ordinary liberals - EVERYONE on the left - would have a place to go and be heard and take collective action. It was always a place in which judgements about each other's positions would be suspended in favor of uniting. It was NEVER designed as a movement that would exclude one group because it was not radical enough, or work to make them believe they were "less pure than" the anarchic core. It never demanded anyone's adherence to an OWS party line. Indeed, OWS has no such line, and that is its greatest tactical strength.

It is the divisive, exclusionary, ELITIST zealots whom I and several others here object to. They work to make us weaker by dividing within ourselves, not stronger by bringing us together as OWS was inspired to do from its inception.

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (27725) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I don't think so it would depend on the candidate and the candidates pledge to support the people as the constitution would have it. I would venture to support someone like Bernie Sanders. Again this would be individual choice and support as is all of Occupy now. Show an issue and perhaps provide a course of action and let the public weigh-in, same thing with an individual to run for office - show the individual and their beliefs and what they want to see accomplished and perhaps ( no definitely ) how they would propose going forward - then again let the public weigh-in.

The key in all is issue's and public participation.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I think that simply supporting anything and everything outside of the corrupted D/R scam, along with challenging the people to start looking in the mirror, is a good tactic.

[-] 4 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

yes, brutal honesty is very effective. I know I learn when people challenge my beliefs, and politically correct jive just don't cut it as a learning tool.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Notice how someone actually down voted my post on creating other options and holding ourselves accountable?

That is the stupidity we are fighting.

[Removed]

[Removed]

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I hope you don't spend more than one day on this forum and you change your name again tomorrow. Then you will have the impact on things that you are entitled to. I can suggest a new one for you when people are on to this username. How about "bluebottle," or better yet "dungbeetle."

[-] 5 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

Just read the entire thread and you have it nailed, GK. I think the winnowing process on this site is obvious. And it is representative of what can happen of a national scale (some would say global). Soon after this started and there was the push for demands and a leader, I suggested that given a little time, the right (correct) strategy would come out of the process. The people running on adrenalin would come down from their high, and notice that cooler heads had been doing serious work to understand the problem and start articulating an appropriate strategy. Then and only then, can an apparently disorganized movement start to implement tactics from the grass roots.

As Yogi said, "If you don't know where you are going, when you get there you may be someplace else" (pretty close, I think)

With a direction, local folks can act together using the tactics they think will work and sometimes they will and some times they won't, but the rest of the movement can learn from it and double up on tactics that succeed.

I think we learned that violence, gets people discredited. People want to associate with groups and actions that they can be proud of. Groups that are committed and willing to sacrifice in ways that are smart, not by becoming thugs that are as bad as the ones we oppose.

In the movie "Viva Zapata" Brando says, "A weak people need a strong leader, a strong people don't need a leader." Strong people with an agreed upon objective are very tough to stop and they just keep getting stronger.

Your appraisal is spot on and much needed. This summer is the time for launching a barrage of home grown tactics, but we can't allow the Cons to win or our task gets immeasurably harder. (IMHO)

I think we have to split the 1% from the Tea Party. They are so dumb they are voting against their interests and are being played for suckers. When they finally realize that they will stay home. Encouraging the Paul crowd to run as a third party is a second important tactic, even if they don't do it staying home is very helpful. The third tactic I would suggest is to fan the flames on the War on Women and the Wars on every other group; the poor, the middle class, Latinos, blacks, LGBT, teachers, firefighters, cops, scientists, everybody but us old white guys.

I think the rest of what we need to do can start the day after the election. What do you think?

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I think this is a clear statement of where we are. I agree with all you say here except perhaps fanning the flames of right-wing hatred.

The Neo-cons are doing a disgustingly good job of that all by themselves, and I think that aside from this being their agenda in the first place, they are doing it to whip up support from their otherwise uninspired fundamentalist base. They may be trying to actually win votes this way, as nausiating as such a calculation may be.

Otherwise I think you hit the mark completely. Thanks!

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Is 99% Spring Co-Opting OWS Into Our Corrupt 2-Party System?

"I have not attended - and I refuse to attend - any 99% Spring or other Demopublican indoctrination sessions. I would never waste my time charging windmills with third parties, but neither will I allow them to sucker me back into the two-party fold. I have been actively supporting the Occupy Movement since day one (9/17/2011) ... Morpheus gave me the Red Pill in Washington DC two years before that (9/11/2009) ... and I've been waging a personal rebellion against the Kleptocracy empowered by 9/11 ever since. And based on what I've seen first-hand in venues like the OccupyWallSt.org Forum, if I still had any left I would bet my entire savings that Spring99% was not the first and will not be the last attempt by the corporate fascist elite and their puppet president Bushbama to co-opt OWS. AdBusters says much the same:"

http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/04/15/is_99_spring_co-opting_ows_into_our_corrupt_2-party_system

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Maybe your movement doesn't really include anyone but you.

[-] -1 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Yes, The 99% Spring Is A Fraud:

http://thiscantbehappening.net/node/1126

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Translation . . . "Please, please, please, please don't all get together and form a real power block!"

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Do you mean like the real power to manipulate the minds of voters?

http://www.openfilm.com/videos/psywar

Do you mean like the real power to rig voting machines?

http://www.hulu.com/watch/192687/hacking-democracy

Or do you mean like the real power to override election results?

http://www.hulu.com/watch/177439/peace

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

He's long winded. I'll give him credit for that. I guess that's what he's paid for.

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

There's no doubt what "GypsyKing" is paid to do in this forum. The mission is the same as that of "Skeletor100" over at Reddit Politics ... and no doubt similar regime plants and virtual personae in every significant political forum on the Web.

[-] -1 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Another Demopublican plant promoting rigged elections with false choices and predetermined outcomes:

http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/01/04/american_elections_false_choices_hiding_other_false_choices

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yawn . . . I've asked you many times to put forth your plan for how this movement can successfully go forward, but unsurprizingly you have never responded. That is because your only goal is division, thinly couched in some absurd holyer than thou retoric.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Are the Republicans coopting the Tea Party, or has the Tea Party coopted the Republican Party? Either way they are controling the political agenda, and frankly, I would rather see Occupy controling the political agenda, one way or the other.

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Your ridiculous statement both assumes and asserts that in the U.S. the "political agenda" and the corporate-controlled "Democrat/Republican two-party system" are synonymous. This need not and should not be, so we accept neither your premise nor your proposition.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

And you have no plan to go forward to actually attain our goals. Well, wishful thinking I guess, but nothing beyond that.

By the way, you seem to be slipping out of character. Now you're talking like a lawyer.

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Sure, he does. He owns a PR firm to make him money off of these issues. (Seriously.) If that's not a plan, what is?

He is simply trying to use OWS to make himself some profit. Perfect 1%er strategy. He is the very corruption he decries.

Notice he has been on this site since all of yesterday! Probably took him since last fall to arrive at his business plan.

(And don't you just love his use of the royal "we"? LOL)

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yeah, that's pretty clear, but even more clear is the underlying ridiculousness of his message. If he really thought voting made no difference, and that it didn't matter which party was in power, then why would he be busting a gut here to convince us of that?

It makes no sense, and I'm tired of his stupid, dictatorial, bold letters. Who does he think he is, Mousallini? I've had enough of this.

[-] -3 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

If you're going to give VVV PR a plug, you could at least give everyone our web address:

http://veritasvirtualvengeance.com/

:-)

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

You think the Democrats and Republicans answer to different masters, and that speaking intelligently is an ability reserved for attorneys? Do you also think wrestling is real, and the moon landings were faked?

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Until we eliminate representative government altogether, something only a tiny majority is dumb enough to want, something that at best won't happen in our, our children's, or their children's lifetime, political parties will be with us. We can certainly work to create newer, better, viable ones, but until we do, we must work to reform the only one that can still be reformed at least as much as possible. Once replaced, it can be dispensed with. Not until then. You have to build the new while dismantling he old.

It is not an either/or choice between real reform and incremental reform. No options should be off the table, no action to make things better should be discouraged.

And saying that is no betrayal. It is in uniting, not dividing, liberals and activists and anarchists and reformers and revolutionaries ALL that we grow strong enough to overturn half a century of decline and entrenched corruption.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

We are in total agreement. This is something I think we must all understand. There will almost certainly be no simple or immediate way to accomplish this. What you say here is spot on, in my opinion.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Thank you GK. That's very kind of you to say.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

No, thank you.

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Another Demopublican plant promoting rigged elections with false choices and predetermined outcomes:

http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/01/04/american_elections_false_choices_hiding_other_false_choices

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/17/is_obama_no_better_than_the_gop/

Your divisiveness is nothing more than trolling.

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Your support for Bushbama and the corporate fascist controlled two-party system is transparent:

MoveOn’s 99 Percent Spring, Obama and the Dems March in Lock-Step:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/04/12/moveons-99-percent-spring-obama-and-the-dems-march-in-lock-step/

[-] 4 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Your ignorance is transparent, as is your devisiveness.

It is not an either/or choice between real reform and incremental reform. No options should be off the table, no action to make things better should be discouraged.

It is in uniting, not dividing, liberals and activists and anarchists and reformers and revolutionaries ALL that we grow strong enough to overturn half a century of decline and entrenched corruption.

[-] 4 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

It is not an either/or choice between real reform and incremental reform. No options should be off the table, no action to make things better should be discouraged.

It is in uniting, not dividing, liberals and activists and anarchists and reformers and revolutionaries ALL that we grow strong enough to overturn half a century of decline and entrenched corruption.

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

99 Percent Spring: the Latest MoveOn Front for the Democratic Party:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/03/16/99-percent-spring-the-latest-moveon-front-for-the-democratic-party/

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

It is not an either/or choice between real reform and incremental reform. No options should be off the table, no action to make things better should be discouraged.

It is in uniting, not dividing, liberals and activists and anarchists and reformers and revolutionaries ALL that we grow strong enough to overturn half a century of decline and entrenched corruption.

Your thinking that the two parties are identical confuses overlap with equivalence. Not everyone is as blind to the differences as you are. Not everyone's anger about the system is as undifferentiated and inchoate as yours. Your divisiveness is more destructive to OWS than any enemies could possibly be.

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Democrats and "99% Spring" listen carefully: One cannot simultaneously be the problem and solve the problem.

https://twitter.com/#!/Mike_Peake/status/193748509009256449

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Your adherence to the "left/right" dichotomy is telling.

Have you never heard of an alliance?

Do you think such a thing is possible with what you view as the "right"?

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

This is straight from AdBusters.

http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/soul-of-occupy.html

We have all known this has been coming for quite some time. The establishment doesnt want a group going outside the D/R scam.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Here's the REAL heart of the fascist revolution.

Guess who backs them to the fullest?

http://alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Excellent link, Shooz. Goes right to the heart of the issue. Thanks.

Some people simply can't seem to differentiate. They are so enraged they simply swing their bats wildly and blindly, breaking everything, including the heads of their brothers and sisters.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

They swing so wildly as way to keep the truth from leaking through.

ALEC has been extremely active in the States for many years now, and can be found at the heart of most of our legislative problems there.

They also miss the the in of ALEC to the founders of modern libe(R)tarianism.

They just won't accept it. Then they swing their bat again.

[-] -3 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Why didn't you just post "Look! Over there! Something shiney!"

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Because, Bruce, I'm not a knee jerk like you.

Would you care to make your guess now?

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

That doesn't answer the question Bruce.

In fact your response feels more like a visit to the prisonplanet twilight zone.

Now would you care to answer the question?

[-] -1 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Democrats and "99% Spring" listen carefully: One cannot simultaneously be the problem and solve the problem.

https://twitter.com/#!/Mike_Peake/status/193748509009256449

[-] -1 points by rroll1951 (29) 2 years ago

your so "commie".....

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Ignore the trolls who dont want change.

They like things how they are, and will go and vote for the same people that fucked it up.

They are old, and there is no changing them. They have been brainwashed.

[-] 3 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

There is this ongoing "problem" with the understanding of a certain segment of people, which your reply really nicely defines. I'll call it zealotry.

IF you are sincere, your zealotry is well meaning. If you are not, then you are just a troll conducting deliberate sabotage. But sincerely your zealotry causes accidental sabotage, so does it make any difference? I often call the anarchists intellectual Typhoid Marys, unwitting (blind) carriers infecting the cause with destructiveness and recklessness.

I love the idealistic notion that a person or new administration or even a political party can sweep into our government and instantly reverse decades of entrenched RW corruption, cronyism, and 1% plutocracy. But it is a fantasy, just like having a perfect government is a fantasy. Not reality.

And it's not hard to see this. It's right there in front of your face.

So, has your zealotry blinded you, or are you deliberately ignoring the facts so that you can bash a moderate, black, Dem POTUS???

Zealot, real or pretend, NO ONE could reverse the war machine, the untethered greed, the poverty and injustice we have now instantly, especially with only a fickle and petulant electorate to back her or him up (like we saw in 2010). NO ONE! And this is beyond obvious.

So what we have are compromises, some good, some bad, some awful. And 2010 exacerbated the problem, letting in all those stupid ass Teabags.

If you really want things to reverse, and return to progress, we have to do more than vote once and walk away. We have to get involved and NEVER walk away!! Democracy is not a spectator sport!!

Open your zealotry-blinded eyes and see the reality that we have to work with. Then join hands and form a winning team to make this world a better place. Or just keep blindly bashing, but at least get some checks from the GOP! They have ALL the money! and share!

Unite and Win! Unite and Win! 2010 Never EVER Again!! Register and Vote! Register and Vote! "We the 1%" NOT What They Wrote!!

[-] -2 points by vvvpr2 (-2) 2 years ago

Another Demopublican plant promoting rigged elections with false choices and predetermined outcomes:

http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/01/04/american_elections_false_choices_hiding_other_false_choices