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Forum Post: Noam Chomsky on Movements and Social Change

Posted 2 years ago on Jan. 12, 2012, 5:13 p.m. EST by struggleforfreedom80 (6584)
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69 Comments

69 Comments


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[-] 2 points by elephant (19) 2 years ago

About 50 of norms books- free

Noan Chomsky 12 nov 2011------------------------------------.7z (95.73 MB) http://www.multiupload.com/8IKIRADK8H

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (22137) 2 years ago

Great videos. Inspiring. Thank you.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

Glad you liked them. Yours s sff http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/

[-] 1 points by zoom6000 (430) from St Petersburg, FL 2 years ago

you nailed it with 2nd link!

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

Chomsky is one of the greatest philosophers of all time. He deserves much more attention.

struggleforfreedom

[-] 1 points by ThelardedOne (16) 2 years ago

Please see comments regarding Chimpsky and Leave it to Beaver

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

No way.

[-] 1 points by ThelardedOne (16) 2 years ago

The Deep Structure of leave It is profound, analyzing the power structure of male dominated kinship and social structures in a lucid, straighforward dialectic. Chimpsky is simply incoherent.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

What are you getting at?

[-] 1 points by ziobot (3) 2 years ago

Chomsky is just another dishonest jewish millionaire trying to brainwash the public with his twisted views on life and Israeli Policy...funny that he criticizes the USA and Israel yet lived in Israel, the welfare state some years back...just another criminal zionist shill, they are a dime a dozen...

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

So people who have lived or lives in Israel or USA can´t criticize the two countries?? You´re making no sense. This is just meaningless babble.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 2 years ago

Chomsky has stated that his "personal visions are fairly traditional anarchist ones, with origins in the Enlightenment and classical liberalism" and he has praised libertarian socialism

[-] 1 points by Fraqtive42 (87) from Herndon, VA 2 years ago

struggleforfreedom, are you an anarcho-syndicalist?

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

Yes.

[-] 1 points by Fraqtive42 (87) from Herndon, VA 2 years ago

Oh, okay. I was just wondering from the red and black flag on your blog.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

yeah, the flag pretty much gives you the answer to you question :)

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Anarcho-syndicalism is a great system implemented voluntarily on a small scale, such as individual companies that choose to structured that way. It cannot work on a macro scale, as in national government.

Chomsky himself does not advocate it as a short, or even medium term goal for OWS. He advocates reform of the current system, not replacement of it. Anarcho-syndicalism is as utopian on a national scale as is either Free Market Libertarianism or Communism, and is equally as unworkable, unreachable, and undesirable.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

An anarcho syndicalist society - macro scale - is the society we should strive for:

http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/1320873951_the_society_we_should.html

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

I don't share your view. There are too many structural problems inherent in it. I don't like absolutes of any sort. I don't like Capitalism unsupplemented by Socialism. I don't like Socialism without the economic drivers of Capitalism. I don't like blind submission to authority, nor do I like complete abdication of responsibility to social order.

Anarcho syndicalism may work for some people but not for others. Direct democracy is subject to as much, if not more, manipulation and corruption as representative democracy. And in a non-homogenous society such as the USA, no one system can work for everyone.

So I don;t see it as an idea on the macro level. It is, by its very nature, an opt-in, voluntary association. Those who cannot or will not opt-in would be left out in the cold, just as they are under laissez faire Capitalism.

I know of anarcho-syndicalism first hand, having participated for 7 years in a community set up largely along its lines when I was younger. And, although I found it to be a joyous experience, it was also a lot of work and responsibility. and every single little issue that came up had to be hashed out: it was incredibly time consuming and often draining. I was fine with that, and those others that participated were as well. But it was a community that many people simply could not thrive in. For a variety of reasons, it was not a good fit for them. But they had a choice: they could, and did, leave. And they had plenty of choices about where they could go. But if that system were applied to an entire nation, they would not have that choice, and their lives would be a never ending misery. It is not suitable on the macro scale.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

I honestly don´t see the the problem or controvercy with creating a system where people are in control of their own life, workplace, and community. If you share the view that people should a have a democratic say in the things that affect them, it would be reasonable that this would include workplaces and communities. Letting people be in control of their own life is not in any way controversial or impossible.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

On a local level it can work. But not on a national one. As I said, I have actually lived it. I know its strengths (and they are great!) but I also know its weaknesses, and they are real. For those issues that anarcho-syndicalism can't deal effectively with, (such as national defense and national infrastructure, and establishment of national civil liberties) a central government comprised of elected representatives, along with enforcement mechanisms and an efficient bureaucracy to make things happen, and an independent judiciary, is necessary.

Anarcho-syndicalism is based on a premise that all people, universally, are social, willing to take responsibility not only for themselves but for others, are able to be thoroughly informed about every economic and social issue in their society, and are, essentially, fundamentally, good. This premise is not only unsupported by any evidence in all of human history, but is, in fact, refuted by it.

The ideal is beautiful. But it is fundamentally utopian. And one man's utopia is another man's hell.

By the way, despite our disagreement here, I appreciate the support for OWS, and MUCH more importantly, the people in my country. Thank you. I hope someday to visit Norway. I have heard only good things about it.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

No, it´s voluntary to participate and be social. You´re free to not participate in your community in AS, but then you can´t expect to get to decide as much as others.

Being an advanced technological modern wealthy society, it would not be very hard to provide information needed. If Catalonia could create AS to a large extent in the mid 1930s, we could definately do it - on a larger scale - in the 21 cent..

It´s in our nature to be solidaric and caring:

http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/1323868733_human_nature_and_libe.html

But AS is all about local level.. Power decentralized to communities and workplaces cooperating with other communities and workplaces thru recallable delegates etc.

Please read and watch: http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/1320873951_the_society_we_should.html

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

I love your idealism. But I think it is naive.

As has been pointed out by another poster, Chomsky's assertion that we are, by nature, altruistic is neither based on history nor science, but is simply an appeal to emotion argument. Your assertion that Socialist libertarianism would encourage altruism is conjecture. Given all the variability of human nature, no single statement about it can be made with legitimacy. Then there is the rule of unintended consequences; whatever you think will happen in a meta-system, there are bound to be unforeseen elements to undermine it.

As I said, I like Aracho-syndicalism: I have lived it. I also know it is very specific and cannot work for everyone.

Indeed, I don't WANT to go backward to what would essentially be tribal life. Although local issues are best dealt with locally, national issues are best dealt with nationally, and local, direct democracy fails in that context. We have seen more local control here in our country before, and instead of fostering altruism, it allowed (and still allows) institutional racism and other evils to thrive. It took a national government to overthrow local Jim Crow laws and private, cooperative practices of bigotry.

Finally, technology does not translate to information, or more accurately, to one's being well informed. It did not inform Californians when they adopted the bigoted denial of civil rights to Gays and Lesbians last year by referendum. It did not inform Mississippians when they, through direct democracy (referendum) made sure more poor people and Blacks could not vote by passing a constitutional amendment requiring photo IDs for voting.

Your optimism is positive. But it is also unrealistic. People can be good, They can also be, and have been, monstrously evil. The altruism that necessarily is the foundation of socialist libertarianism is ephemera, at best. It is certainly not universal. No universal system can be based upon it.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

"Chomsky's assertion that we are, by nature, altruistic is neither based on history nor science"

You´re wrong. Look at Dawkins (1976), Kropotkin (1902), Trivers (1971), and Mauss (1923) among others

It would be a highly advanced technological society where people do what ought to be taken for granted: being in control of their own work and community.

Rightly claiming that some people are bad is in no way an argument for refusing people to be in control of their own life, work and community.

Again:


I honestly don´t see the problem or controvercy with creating a system where people are in control of their own life, workplace, and community. If you share the view that people should a have a democratic say in the things that affect them, it would be reasonable that this would include workplaces and communities. How can one disagree wih this??


[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

"How can one disagree wih this??"

I don't disagree that having a more democratic workplace would be a good things, AT TIMES. Nor do I object to greater democratic participation on a local level, as long as it adheres to the laws of the larger society, determined by representatives.

I simply don't think your system would expand freedom on a national level, and would not want it be mandatory for all workplaces. I think your system would have consequences you are not aware of, consequences that would actually reduce the freedom you so ardently support.

I don't object to freedom. I object to your system being universally applied on a macro level. I object to it precisely because it would diminish freedom. Direct democracy is very positive in some situations. But lynch mobs and witch hunts are examples of direct democracy, too. Direct democracy, by itself, is not a panacea.

By the way, Dawkins, Kropotkin, Trivers, and Mauss did NOT prove the universal altruism of Humanity. They merely posited it. HIstory shows us that slavery existed. That's not altruistic. Wars have been fought for greed. That's not altruistic. Genocide has occurred, in our own lifetime, based on religious, ethnic, and racial difference. That's not altruistic.

Theory is one thing, reality is another. No absolute system can work for people simply because people are not absolutes. We are relative beings, with an astonishing variety of different needs and wants and abilities.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

"AT TIMES"

Oh, so a system where people are in control of their own life, workplace, and community..at times... That´s not good enough!

"I think your system would have consequences you are not aware of, consequences that would actually reduce the freedom you so ardently support."

You´re wrong. Libertarian Socialism means democracy from the bottom up. Thats how a sustainable future society must look like.

Lynch mobs and witch hunts would not take place in a civilized Anarcho Syndicalist society in a network of democratic social and economic organizations.

Like I wrote in my article "Human Nature and Libertarian Socialism" which you should check out if youre interested in hearing what I have said on this issue, I wrote that human nature allows for different kinds of behavior and it can be shaped to a certain extent, but that there are certain things such as solidarity etc that are at our core. Yes, horrible things have been taking place but that was after the hierarchies had started forming. It is hierarchical structures that to a large extent gives way for things like those you mentioned.

Yes, we´re all individuals and different, and thats why we shuld have a system where one can contribute based on ones own capacity - Libertarian Socialism.

[-] -1 points by riethc (1149) 2 years ago

What did Noam Chomsky ever do? Write a book?

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

Actually, there have been about a 100 releases.

What did Chomsky ever do. Well, he has revolutionized the linguistics field, including contributing to scientific knowledge on human nature. He has also contributed to philosophy. And he has spent a lot of his spare time traveling all over the world for decades sharing his knowledge.

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 2 years ago

So he wrote many books?

I just find the admiration of Noam exaggerated. I've read one of his books. It was an academic resource at best. Didn't really tell me anything I didn't already know.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

hmm, that´s wierd. He usually provides lots of info that most people are not aware of. Which book did you read?

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 2 years ago

It was about Southeast Asia. The full title escapes me. I read it many years ago.

Someone who does a great job teaching in documentary-form is Adam Curtis. He created the Century of the Self and the Power of Nightmares, essentially dissecting propaganda and social movements, I believe he is someone on point who doesn't waste time explaining the obvious.

List of Adam Curtis documentaries: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/search/?results=adam+curtis

[-] -2 points by Zenqueerdog (-14) 2 years ago

Hey Norway, Fuck off from America.

[-] 6 points by lovebug (20) 2 years ago

Hey NORWAY- many thanks for supporting the American people against there unjust government. I wish we had your government-

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

Norway isn´t perfect. We also have been more and more introduced to capitalist principles, but you´re right, Norway - being a so called "Social Democracy" - has much better workers´ rights than in the US and most people have a decent life. However, you guys can get it too, and youll eventually achieve it by doing exactly what you´re doing right now: organizing and creating a wonderful growing engaged Occupy Movement activily working for a better society. yours s sff

http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/

[-] 5 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

It probably won't bother them very much, given their unemployment rate is remarkably low, wealth disparity isn't nearly as obscene as it is in the United States, they have a higher per capital GNP, better healthcare system, better quality of life, etc. etc.

[-] 2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

The North Sea oil is a big help to Norway's high standard of living. Many Swedes work in Norway because their economy is so vibrant now. Not that long ago, it was the other way around. Even in Sweden though, there are more people who have second (summer) homes on a per capita basis than any other country in the world.

When the economy was particularly bad in Sweden, Scania trucks chose to retrain their entire work force, rather than lay them off, paying their employees two thirds or more their average wage. So they do seem to have a different approach. When the economy picked up which it has in Sweden, they were ready.

Sweden is also very advanced in organic food production, and all new homes have to be built with heating systems where they get some of their heat from the ground...not exactly sure how that works but sff could fill us in, I'm sure. Anyway, I kind of get the feeling that we are falling behind, and that the big money interests from the fossil fuel industry is one of the main reasons.

I do appreciate sff's contribution to this forum, and will look for the doc's I haven't seen yet. The other good documentary is The Warning. It's about a very intelligent, courageous little woman named Brooksley Born who warned of the dangers of the Dark (derivatives) Market, and wanted to regulate it through her agency, The Commodities Furures Trading Commission. She went up against Alan Greenspan, Larry Summers, Robert Rubin, and Arthur Levitt and stood her ground until they defanged her agency and ran her out of town. Only Levitt admitted later that she was right and that he wished he had listened to her.

Gott Nytt Ar sff and solidarity.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Yeah, there was an excellent documentary on Brooksley Born on PBS (awesome lady).

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I originally saw it there, then got a copy of it at the library. Still the derivatives market goes unregulated for the most part.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Indeed ... and the worse thing is, if the economy adequately rebounds, there's a risk that most Americans will forget about all of this.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

Struggling poor and working people in the US have my deepest sympathy. You´re right - Norway has much better workers´ rights than in the US and most people have a decent life over here, but you guys can get it too, and youll eventually achieve it by doing exactly what you´re doing right now: organizing and creating a wonderful growing engaged Occupy Movement. yours s sff

http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

I´m sorry you feel that way. Best regards sff

[-] -3 points by FreedomsSpeech (-5) 2 years ago

Noam Chomsky is a simpleton, a demented idiot, and not nearly as smart as The Beaver.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

You sure had a lot of good arguments to back your claims..

[-] 2 points by computer (10) 2 years ago

noam chomsky, is the brightest and most educated American-- ever.

[-] 0 points by FreedomsSpeech (-5) 2 years ago

Lol.

Uhhh, he is a demented truther.

Regarding the death of Osama bin Laden, Chomsky stated: "We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush's compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic. Uncontroversially, his crimes vastly exceed bin Laden’s, and he is not a 'suspect' but uncontroversially the 'decider' who gave the orders to commit the 'supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole' (quoting the Nuremberg Tribunal) for which Nazi criminals were hanged: the hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of refugees, destruction of much of the country, [and] the bitter sectarian conflict that has now spread to the rest of the region."[

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 2 years ago

and your point is?

[+] -8 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

People don't hate you because you're foul. Don't get me wrong, you are fucking foul, that's just not why people hate you.

[-] -3 points by FreedomsSpeech (-5) 2 years ago

Yeah, I agree. Chomsky is foul. G-D-Fing foul. Thanks for your support.

[-] 1 points by 1169 (204) 2 years ago

do u guys have spell check?

[+] -5 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

It's the truth that hurts the mostest, amiright?

[-] -1 points by FreedomsSpeech (-5) 2 years ago

You betcha.

Smarts real hard, AEB certain posts. QED.

Thanks for your continued support and opposition to morons like Chomsky.

[+] -6 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

I don't support you at all, douchebag. :D

[-] 0 points by FreedomsSpeech (-5) 2 years ago

Yes you do. Just look at your posts, Beaver.

[+] -6 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Bahahaha, how many weeks have you been a ballsack?

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[-] -1 points by FreedomsSpeech (-5) 2 years ago

Thanks for your continued support.

[+] -5 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Great and timely videos, struggle!!

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

Glad you liked them. Yours s sff http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/

[+] -6 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

To accompany this excellent 'forum-post', please also see :

a) "The Manipulation of Fear", by Noam Chomsky : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30175.htm ;

b) "Elite Propaganda, The Myth of the Liberal Media & The Propaganda Model of News", by Noam Chomsky and Edward Herman (Video) : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6435.htm ;

c) "Noam Chomsky Addresses Occupy Boston Protesters" (Video) : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29505.htm ;

d) "Manufacturing Consent" (Video) : http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5631882395226827730

e) http://www.chomsky.info/ + "Unplug Yourself: How Advertising and Entertainment Shapes Your Subconscious", by Andre Evans : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30220.htm#idc-cover .

fiat lux ...

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

yes, these are important. Here is the entire Occupy Boston event, including Q&A:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZbNT62aprM

Also, check out "The Corporation" and "The Take":

http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/1323595118_documentaries.html

yours s sff

http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/

[+] -6 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Excellent !! The documentary films "The Corporation" and "The Take" are essential viewing for anyone who wishes to understand how and why we are all in the situation we are in.

In order to clarify OWS's 'raison d'etre', please watch The Documentary Film 'INSIDE JOB' :

a) Free Download : http://www.multiupload.com/7B46GXEHYZ ,

b) Latest Working Link : http://documentarystorm.com/inside-job/ &

c) Official Movie Site & Trailer ; http://www.sonyclassics.com/insidejob/ .

Narrated by Matt Damon ... "It's a powerhouse of a documentary that will leave you both thunderstruck and boiling with rage."

'Inside Job' provides a comprehensive analysis of the global financial crisis of 2008, which at a cost over $20 trillion, caused millions of people to lose their jobs and homes in the worst recession since the Great Depression, and nearly resulted in a global financial collapse. Through exhaustive research and extensive interviews with key financial insiders, politicians, journalists, and academics, the film traces the rise of a rogue industry which has corrupted politics, regulation, and academia. It was made on location in the United States, Iceland, England, France, Singapore, and China.

Further, in order to really get an insight into the nature, motivation and The Dark Forces of "the other side", please watch the documentary, "The Billionaires' Tea Party (Proof Tea Party Is Nothing But Astro Turf)" ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO_WC0FINmA !!

Finally, please consider that when 'LOVE' is the guiding animus, all sorts of "different kinds of wonderful" become possible ... and thus, with a touch of artistic license, please reflect on "The Greatest Speech Ever Made" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK2WJd5bXFg&feature=related by one Charlie Chaplain !!

Takk og Solidaritet Norge ;-)

per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

Tusen takk for det, Shadz66. Beste hilsner :)

[+] -6 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Gode ønsker for 2012 og utover og REVOLUJAH ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TZ_Qi0ehe8 ), baby !!! ~{:-)

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

takk, det samme.

make sure you catch this conversation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmRhboeF-kA

yours s sff

[+] -6 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Another Excellent Link !! I've book marked it and strongly recommend it to all readers.

Takk for det, 'sff', bo godt og farvel !! ;-)

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

No problem:)

[+] -6 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Adjø og en låt for deg : PIL, "Rise" ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzNjmIWbns4 !!

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

thanks. Keep up the good work. See you around.