Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: Noam Chomsky - How To Achieve Social Change

Posted 1 year ago on Oct. 14, 2013, 3:24 p.m. EST by struggleforfreedom80 (6584)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

103 Comments

103 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Noam Chomsky speaks three minutes of pure sense and is heartening, optimistic and forward looking in your short video. He urges us to educate, agitate and organise and learn the lessons of past struggles. Thanx 'A' & good to see you back :-) & in compliment of your forum-post, I append these 10 links :

solidaritet igjen ...

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Hi. Glad you liked it. Solidarity.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''The Folly of Empire'', by Chris Hedges :

''The final days of empire give ample employment and power to the feckless, the insane and the idiotic. These politicians and court propagandists, hired to be the public faces on the sinking ship, mask the real work of the crew, which is systematically robbing the passengers as the vessel goes down. The mandarins of power stand in the wheelhouse barking ridiculous orders and seeing how fast they can gun the engines. They fight like children over the ship’s wheel as the vessel heads full speed into a giant ice field. They wander the decks giving pompous speeches. They shout that the SS America is the greatest ship ever built. They insist that it has the most advanced technology and embodies the highest virtues. And then ... ''

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

I'll check it out. Thanks.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''The year 2011 marked the beginning of worldwide uprisings. Movements from abroad found resonance in North America. Inspired by people’s struggles overseas, the disfranchised American rose up, taking to the streets at the centers of wealth and corruption. Occupy Wall Street, which began in the fall of 2011, captured the imagination of the public. From Brazil to Turkey, Egypt to Bosnia and Bulgaria, new insurgencies are still rolling in, challenging the legitimacy of “representative” governments worldwide. What these movements from below reveal is how in virtually every corner of the globe, democracy — as we have known it so far — is in crisis.

''To overcome the crisis of democracy and reaffirm our autonomy, we first of all need to liberate our empty self from mindless consumerism and conformity.'' from :

The balance between the self and the community ; between the personal and the political ; between the private and the public - is something we all have to work out for ourselves, as we go along our lives but The Parasitic, Venal 0.01% rely on The 99% to remain alienated, atomised and apathetic and actually they seek to feed this with their wholly owned MSM. Thank goodness for the Inter-Web - which is why They are so desperate to control it of course. Finally, as a relevant aside here & fyi :

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''Subversion ain't what it used to be. Today it scarcely figures as a significant force. Nation states are threatened by something else. 'Superversion' : an attack from above.'' from this highly recommended article :

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by Devonshire (81) from Norwich, VT 1 year ago

It's so gratifying to see all the resistance that is building, and to know that Occupy had so much to do with actuating it.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''Viable left organizations and alliances with histories of developing critiques of capitalism and corresponding economic demands have thus been largely absent from recent US history. No trusted networks evolved among activists that could have mobilized a contemporary version of the New Deal coalition. When Republicans directed popular dissatisfaction after 2007 against the government, no comparable push-back came from the left.

''It took years until Occupy Wall Street (OWS) flashed onto the public consciousness. OWS was powerful, but not for long. The organizational foundation for sustained activity was lacking. OWS had to build organization from scratch and against great anxiety and skepticism.

''It made headway, was hurt by governmental repression, and now simmers over what to do next. The conditions for its resurgence are in place - waiting for OWS or successors to respond and build on them.''

Excerpted but with my paragraphing for emphasis, from :

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 3 points by Devonshire (81) from Norwich, VT 1 year ago

Let me put those great links into a concise little ryhming verse.

The seeds of Occupy have begun to sprout and no amount of Roundup will ever put them out.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''The obsessive opposition to the Affordable Care Act, (is) a law centered on free-market competition in the private sector and not at all like the kind of single-payer system that many on the Left would have preferred. A principled - and smart - opposition would have accused Democrats of stealing good ideas from Mitt Romney and the Republicans and would have urged voters, if they want to go straight to the source of good ideas and not to copy-cats, to vote Republican. But instead we have people who viscerally loathe Barack Obama and whatever he stands for and would rather destroy anything associated with him.'' excerpted from :

multum in parvo ...

[-] 2 points by Devonshire (81) from Norwich, VT 1 year ago

The government shut-down and much of the reactionary, nefarious agenda that has been pursued by those people to get us where we are now.... is another instance of the tail wagging the dog.

And to be specific, it is conservative, big money groups that have infected both parties in making this possible.

The fact is, this has been going on for many years as the electorate slept while the neocons gained control of the MSM and pushed their agenda upon us..

If anyone believes that the Republicans haven't moved far to the right dragging the Democrats along with them, they should think again and look at the link below.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/08/how-george-romney-championed-civil-rights-and-challenged-his-church/261073/

It's too bad that his son and so many D's & R's aren't of the same ilk.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

An angry reactionary stump is what the laws of demographics will leave The Republican Party, as they 'wither on the vine', like the strange and bitter fruit that they are ... but no one can wait that long ... can they ?!!! Maybe that'll happen quicker than we think and is why The Kochs & their ilk are so desperate to stack the decks and gerrymander and disillusion the electorate !! The really critical point is in your penultimate paragraph and excellent & recommended link, so thanx ! Also in compliment, I append :

verb. sat. sap. ...

[-] 2 points by Devonshire (81) from Norwich, VT 1 year ago

It's true, much of our early history was built on "myths," however we always seemed to have a system and a people who had the ability to right the injustices that crept up. Today that very capability to cleanse ourselves is questionable due to a people who feel powerless to do anything to change things for the better. But on the bright side, as you know there is a painstakingly slow, but positive transformation in people's thinking taking place that will only grow over time. It is only when enough people are willing to stand up and demand change... will we have the chance to be victors over the dark forces that have institutionalized, propagated and protected the corrupt World we live in. Is that scary? No not near as 'scary' as the alternative.

I wish I could argue a good case against "Bernie" the letter writer's state of my country, and your obvious agreement with him, but unfortunately, I can't. I do look forward to the day that I can be proud of the country and the World I live in. I guess that's one of the main reasons we are both here.

Edit: And I do agree with your implication that the Republican Party, given enough rope will hang itself...especially because of the changing demographics in this country,...the plutocrats' f..king arrogance, and lest we forget the beautiful neo-enlightenment of a people waking up.

Thanks for the thought provoking links.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''As Democrats, mainstream Republicans and the American public struggle to understand what's happening on Capitol Hill, a growing number of analysts point to the dangerous philosophy of Christian dominionism as a driving force. One of the most respected voices offering this analysis belongs to Chris Hedges, Pulitzer-prize winning journalist & author of 'The Christian Right & the War on America''' from :

Many thanx for your thoughtful reply. It is a numbers game and education is the key. Americans have acted for their collective well being before and can do again. TV's need to be switched off though ;-) but OWS is right at the heart of 'The New Awakening'. Onwards and Upwards - even when it's sideways ... 'cause wtf is the option ?! (& I shudder at the 'F' word !!)

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 2 points by Devonshire (81) from Norwich, VT 1 year ago

I have believed for a long time that the commandeering of the Republican Party by the religious zealots and other wing-nuts began in the Goldwater years, and at that time there were at least two well-known Republicans on the national level that opposed the right wing policies of Senator Goldwater. One as I pointed out in a previous post was Michigan's Governor George Romey (Mitt's dad) who worked hard on championing issues for the poor; marched in Civil rights demonstrations; challenged his Mormon church to discontinue their racist policies and refused to back Goldwater in his Presidential run. And another Republican was, New York's Governor Nelson Rockefeller who gave a wonderful Margaret Chase Smith-like speech...a warning at the 1964 Republican convention, and it would be a great speech for a ballsy Republican (if there are any) to give again today... as I believe that criticism from within that party carries more weight than from outside of it.

"During this year I have crisscrossed this nation [while running against Goldwater for the Presidential candidacy], fighting...to keep the Republican party the party of all the people....and warning of the extremist threat, its danger to the party and its danger to the nation," he said, pausing as the crowd cheered "We want Barry [Goldwater]!" "These extemist feed on fear, hate, and terror [they have] no program for America and the Republican party...[they] operate from dark shadows of secrecy..." my emphasis

And the man who helped Goldwater win the decisive California primary was none other than Ronald Reagan, and so began the neoliberal agenda, and....everyone lived un-happily ever after...

Note; I am no fan of Rockefeller, mostly because of the draconian drug laws that he had passed as Governor of New York, but I do believe as others do, that, that was his "finest hour." I wish we had another Republican like him speak out in the way that not only he did, but in the same way that Margaret Chase Smith R Maine did in speaking out against McCarthyism. "... I don't want to see the Republican Party ride to political victory on the Four Horsemen of Calumny - Fear, Ignorance, Bigotry and Smear." my emphasis again*

To predict the demise of the right-wing dominated Republican party might be premature, but the government shut-down has not helped them...at all, and we should all celebrate that tonight. However if we think that we will ever get the systemic change that we need by investing our hopes and energies in D or R politicians who have betrayed us time and again....especially in terms of our paramount need to put our environment as our first priority; having a more just system and a government that puts the people's interests before corporate and banking interests... we will be sadly disappointed.

Thanks, good links.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

With the benefit of memory, experience and judgement, your words are interesting and thoughtful and I quote you in repeating : ''However if we think that we will ever get the systemic change that we need by investing our hopes and energies in D or R politicians who have betrayed us time and again ...'' & so in addition and compliment, I append and recommend :

''Systemic change'' in mind, word and thought, connecting head, heart and action is what we all need.

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 1 points by Devonshire (81) from Norwich, VT 1 year ago

"With the benefit of memory, experence and....." Yes it does pay to be old...I guess...;-(...lol.

Last night on my way to friends for dinner, I stopped by the library to read the Sunday NY Times. I saw a piece on the opinion page that closely resembled my last post. It gives the history of the rise of the Republican right-wing extremism. See short vid too.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/20/us/fiscal-crisis-sounds-the-charge-in-gops-civil-war.html

From your link above in speaking about today's Republicans ; "Race is less the explicit target of their anxiety (issues such as affirmative action and civil rights no longer dominate) than the primary (if not exclusive prism) through which their political conciousness is being filtered."Race" writes Greenberg, "is central to their worldview."

Race has been insidiously used by the Republicans for some time, starting with Goldwater in my life-time, and it manifests itself in the wars we fight in xenophobic ways. If he is not an American or at least a Westerner...his life is worth nothing. The mere fact that we so blithely label people who resist us and the despotic leaders who we support as 'terrorists' shows to me that we have lost our ability to think clearly, as well as having lost our moral compass. Are we too 'terrorists' for resisting that same corrupt status quo that drives the neoliberal agenda?!

Thanks, good link.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''Are we too 'terrorists' for resisting that same corrupt status quo that drives the neoliberal agenda?!'' is a deeper question than many in the US can face let alone answer and it'd take a strong character to even ask the question.

'Business' picks the contenders for the US Presidential (S)Election as demonstrated from your link, by : ''The U.S. Chamber of Commerce will decide which candidates to support in the 2014 midterm elections based in part upon whether they voted for the deal on Wednesday to end the shutdown and raise the debt ceiling.'' Finally, in compliment of your interesting comment and link, I append :

''Capitalism is establishing new centers and withdrawing from many of the old. Indeed, “withdrawal” does not capture the extent of the movement. For example, Detroit, Michigan, was the center of the US automobile industry in 1960 with a population just under 2 million. Today it is a bankrupt city with a population of under 700,000. Its decline since the 1970s mirrors that of Cleveland, Ohio, Camden, New Jersey, and many other formerly thriving capitalist centers where “withdrawal” needs to be replaced by “abandoned.”

''Among the social effects of capitalism’s withdrawal from many old capitalist centers in the US are rapidly widening wealth and income inequalities there. These in turn provoke rising tensions within and between the two major political parties and a growing disaffection of the population with political leadership in general. The US government shutdown in October 2013, and the acrimony afflicting US politics reflect capitalism’s withdrawal and its social effects.'' Also please consider :

''Corporations, freed from all laws, government regulations and internal constraints, are stealing as much as they can, as fast as they can, on the way down. The managers of corporations no longer care about the effects of their pillage. Many expect the systems they are looting to fall apart. They are blinded by personal greed and hubris. They believe their obscene wealth can buy them security and protection. They should have spent a little less time studying management in business school and a little more time studying human nature and human history. They are digging their own graves.''

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] 5 points by beautifulworld (22295) 1 year ago

"We fight back.....you organize, first you have to educate...which includes educating yourself, then you have to try to organize, get people mobilized to do something, as say the Occupy movement did and has done and might continue to do. And, carry out actions of the kind that threaten power and require a response....."

Great little piece sff and glad to see you posting again. You were missed.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Glad you liked it. And thanks for those kind words:)

[-] 1 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

"We fight back.....you organize, first you have to educate...which includes educating yourself, then you have to try to organize, get people mobilized to do something, as say the Occupy movement did and has done and might continue to do. And, carry out actions of the kind that threaten power and require a response....."

BAM!!

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (22295) 1 year ago

POW! Go Occupy! And, thanks, Chomsky for all your contributions, and sff for posting them here.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Inter alia, here's 'Why Occupy' & why we need ''to achieve social change'' :

''Allied to the old abuses is a newer kind of superversion : the attempts by billionaires and their lieutenants to destroy the functions of the state. Note the current shutdown – and the debt-ceiling confrontation scheduled for Thursday – in the United States. The Republicans, propelled by a Tea Party movement created by the Koch brothers and financed by a gruesome collection of multimillionaires, have engineered what in other circumstances would be called a general strike. The difference is that the withdrawal of their labour has been imposed on the workers.''

ad iudicium ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (22295) 1 year ago

"One result is that those who call themselves conservatives and patriots appear to be deeply confused about what they are defending."

"These fake patriots proclaim a love for their country, while ensuring that there is nothing left to love. They are loyal to the pageantry – the flags, the coinage, the military parades – but intensely disloyal to the nation these symbols are supposed to represent. The greater the dissonance becomes, the louder the national anthem plays."

From Monbiot.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''An obsession with growth has eclipsed our concern for sustainability, justice and human dignity. But people are not disposable – the value of life lies outside economic development'' from :

ad iudicium ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (22295) 1 year ago

"Limitless growth is the fantasy of economists, businesses and politicians. It is seen as a measure of progress....However, economic growth hides the poverty it creates through the destruction of nature, which in turn leads to communities lacking the capacity to provide for themselves."

I recently visited a Permaculture farm that a friend took me to see. This is the way to go in the future, the way back to a life where economics meets ecology and where human beings and the earth are served well.

From Wikipedia: "The core tenets of permaculture are:

Care of the earth: Provision for all life systems to continue and multiply. This is the first principle, because without a healthy earth, humans cannot flourish.

Care of the people: Provision for people to access those resources necessary for their existence.

Return of surplus: Reinvesting surpluses back into the system to provide for the first two ethics. This includes returning waste back into the system to recycle into usefulness."

And, thanks for that excellent article by Shiva. Everyone should read it. She's spot on.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Re. 'Permaculture' - great excerpts from : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture and thanx.

Glad you got the Dr. Vandana Shiva piece, she's great and in compliment, please do consider :

Solidarity for a bw for us all everywhere & to u and yrs bw.

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (22295) 1 year ago

"There was one dynamic in the model, however, that offered some hope. Werner termed it “resistance” – movements of “people or groups of people” who “adopt a certain set of dynamics that does not fit within the capitalist culture”. According to the abstract for his presentation, this includes “environmental direct action, resistance taken from outside the dominant culture, as in protests, blockades and sabotage by indigenous peoples, workers, anarchists and other activist groups”.

It is increasingly becoming apparent that it is up to "we the people" to make the changes that our government refuses to make for us.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Almost all 'Western Democracies' are in various states of 'Democratic Deficit' as our governments have been infiltrated, corrupted and co-opted by The Corporations. True Change can only come from ''we the people'' and from a 'bottom up' organisation and mobilisation for a just and compassionate future for all.

Nothing that the 99% have was just given, it all had to be struggled for and so much of it is being rolled back, as The TTP and 'Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership' take hold. Resistance Is Fertile and if we really want a just and 'bw' for all ...wtf is the option ?!

per ardua as astra ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (22295) 1 year ago

"The world’s climate scientists tell us we’re facing a planetary emergency. They’ve been telling us since the 1990s that if we don’t cut global fossil fuel greenhouse gas emissions by 80-90% below 1990 levels by 2050 we will cross critical tipping points and global warming will accelerate beyond any human power to contain it. Yet despite all the ringing alarm bells, no corporation and no government can oppose growth and, instead, every capitalist government in the world is putting pedal to the metal to accelerate growth, to drive us full throttle off the cliff to collapse.

Marxists have never had a better argument against capitalism than this inescapable and apocalyptic “contradiction.” Solutions to the ecological crisis are blindingly obvious but we can’t take the necessary steps to prevent ecological collapse because, so long as we live under capitalism, economic growth has to take priority over ecological concerns.

We all know what we have to do: suppress greenhouse gas emissions. Stop over-consuming natural resources. Stop the senseless pollution of the earth, waters, and atmosphere with toxic chemicals. Stop producing waste that can’t be recycled by nature. Stop the destruction of biological diversity and ensure the rights of other species to flourish. We don’t need any new technological breakthroughs to solve these problems. Mostly, we just stop doing what we’re doing. But we can’t stop because we’re all locked into an economic system in which companies have to grow to compete and reward their shareholders and because we all need the jobs."

From the Smith article.

So, it's clear, what we need to do is change the economic system. It's the only overriding answer because as long as capitalism is at play, profits will be primary and profits will require the raping and pillaging of Mother Earth.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

'The Crisis of Civilization' is a remix documentary feature film investigating how global crises like ecological disaster, financial meltdown, our dwindling oil reserves, terrorism and food shortages are converging symptoms of a single, failed global system. I'll emphatically assure you and any and all readers that it will be time very well spent indeed and that you won't forget viewing it as it goes to the heart of your points above :

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (22295) 12 months ago

What a great documentary that gets to the heart of our problems.

"Recognizing that we need not just tinkering, but transformation of the system."

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 12 months ago

http://crisisofcivilization.com/ is the official site with many useful links. I recommend this film and book to everyone I meet & I append a link of the author's TED talk, entitled ''From Endless Growth To A New Form Of Democracy'' :

ad iudicium et caveat ...

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (22295) 12 months ago

"Arctic sea ice coverage is now at the lowest level it’s been for a million years. It will likely disappear in the summer by 2015. The loss of summer sea ice is linked to the accelerating melt of permafrost, releasing the vast underground stores of methane – about 30 times more potent as a greenhouse gas than carbon."

"By mid-century, if we fail to act, world crop yields could fall as much as 20-40 per cent due to global warming."

"The heart of the problem is the skewered structure of our current form of capitalism, which makes endless material growth at any cost a seemingly rational imperative. What is this structure? It comes down to who owns the Earth. Today’s capitalism is based on a completely natural condition where approximately 1-5 per cent of the world’s population, owns the entirety of the planet’s productive resources, as well as the technologies of production and distribution. This is the outcome of centuries of colonisation, imperialism and globalisation, which has centralised control of the earth’s resources and raw materials into the hands of a few."

"So how can we respond? We must first awaken to the reality that this is not the end, but the beginning. We are witnessing the collapse of the old paradigm, which hell-bent on planetary suicide, isn’t working. By the end of this century, whatever happens, civilization in its current form will not exist. The question we must therefore ask ourselves is this. What will we choose to take its place?"

"Our economies, rather than being assumed to exist in a vacuum of unlimited material expansion, are seen as embedded in wider society, such that economic activity for its own sake is recognised as the pathology that it is. Instead, economic enterprise becomes aligned with the deeper values that make us human – values like meeting our basic needs, education and discovery, arts and culture, sharing and giving: the values which psychologists say contribute to well-being and happiness, far more than mere money and things."

Nafeez Mosadeqq Ahmed is a big thinker with lots of specific ideas (and loads of facts) on how we can move forward to save ourselves and the environment. Bravo.

Thanks for the links, Shadz.

[-] 2 points by TheRoot (94) from New York, NY 1 year ago

The advocates of The Patriot Act argued that if we don't let the Government track all phone calls and electronic communications, then invasion of privacy is the least we'll have to worry about. Likewise, in his article, "Sleepwalking to Extinction - Capitalism and the destruction of life and earth", Richard Smith uses the same kind of argument. Smith argues for control over coal ("if we do not stop mining and burning coal, capitalist freedom and private property is the least we’ll have to worry about."). Private property and freedom are empty ideas; we haven't had either in a long, long time. Smith's fear mongering is lame. The powers to be (the elite) will or will not put a bullet in the head of coal. It just depends on their mood.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

The ''USA PATRIOT Act'' you mean ?! Do you know what the acronym stands for ?!! - ''Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism - an Orwellian piece of legislation over 1000 pages long, ready for 'Express Install'' within days of 9/!! !!! + :

Coal is just about the dirtiest and most Carbon Effusive fuel we have. AGW (Anthropomorphic Global Warming) is pretty much understood and the real scientific consensus on the matter is massive. The Corporations will wriggle like crazy and their puppet governments will drag their feet (as you imply) but personally I think that the 0.01% Parasitic Oligarch Class are all up for it if they think that billions of the rest of us will perish as they ; their progeny {clones ?!} & their 1% lackeys cruise the sees, dreaming of terra-forming Mars &/or inheriting a diminished Earth, with less of and for us [The 99%] & more for Them but sorry to share that dystopian vision with you, dude.

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] 3 points by TheRoot (94) from New York, NY 11 months ago

As you said, "personally I think that the 0.01% Parasitic Oligarch Class are all up for it [i.e., putting a bullet in the head of coal], if they think that billions of the rest of us will perish ".
But it is obvious and goes without saying that billions will perish, if coal is banned.

The supply chain from coal to the must-haves like electricity, steel, aluminum and synthetic fuels is so enormous that without it, we'd might as well bend over, put our heads between our legs and kiss our common asses goodbye. The elite-of-the-elites won't ban coal because if they tried, they'd be hunted down by the masses. Instead, the ",01% Parasitic Oligarch Class" will surreptitiously continue to encourage tactics to heighten concern over coal's uses in order to control prices and our lives as they want.

A parasite without its host is a dead parasite. The elite-of-elites without the masses is just as dead, right.

gotta go. will continue. later.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

''A parasite without its host is a dead parasite. The elite-of-elites without the masses is just as dead, right.'' Yes, very dead and they would try to convince us that we can't do without them too, LOL !

I'm not quite getting your coal point ... as you seem to imply that we can't do without it whereas I'm saying that it is the dirtiest fossil fuel we have and that it is a massive contributor to AGW !!

Personally I think that we already have the where-with-all to micro and macro generate all the power we need from a combination of renewables (wind, wave, hydro, geo-thermal, solar, photo-voltaic, alcohol / fermentation etc.) with possibly nuclear, so as to satisfy all our needs and for free ... but the mthrfkrs don't want that - as then howTF would they then charge us if that was the case ?!!!

ad iudicium ...

[-] 1 points by TheRoot (94) from New York, NY 11 months ago

In regards to my point on coal, I wasn't leaving anything implied; I was explicit about it when I said, "The supply chain from coal to the must-haves like electricity, steel, aluminum and synthetic fuels is so enormous that without it, we'd might as well bend over, put our heads between our legs and kiss our common asses goodbye."

~40% of the world's electricity is generated from coal but you said that you personally think that coal's replacement will come from a combination of renewables (with possibly nuclear) and this replacement will satisfy our needs. I don't see combined renewables getting us anywhere close. Let me know why you think that they will. -Thanks

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 months ago

I'm really thinking that 100 years of fucking about with 'The Carbon Cycle' & practically instantly (in geological time) releasing 'fossilised sunlight' and carbon into the thin film of fluids we call 'The Atmosphere' can NOT be conducted without some kind of payback.

I learnt that CO2 levels were 300 parts per million (0.03%) at school 25 years ago - now that stands at over 400 ppm (0.04%) ie. a 30%+ increase in one generation. It'd really be incredibly ignorant for us to think that that can happen without some major consequence. Humans can nott just stuff our faces or consume drugs and alcohol to our maximum desire without serious consequence and to assume that the bioshere can indefinitely handle our addictions is a stretch too far. Also fyi :

All the renewables may well have to be supplemented by nuclear but our Carbon-Crack habit can't go on without repercussions and indeed - these are now staring us right in the face with record temperature in Australia & an expanding Sahel already causing misery for millions & sea level rise on the doorstep too.

ad iudicium ...

[-] 1 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 11 months ago

They were cracking sea water for submarines in WWII, that was 70 years ago. Its very manageable to get the world off of combustion and hence remove the brown clouds over cities like LA, Phoenix and most others (though not as noticeable).

[+] -5 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

Don't forget the flying saucers at area 51, shortly after WWII.

Manageable, huh?

Even seen Shanghai?

[-] 1 points by meanjogreen (7) 1 year ago

TheRoot said Private property and freedom are empty ideas; we haven't had either in a long, long time.

How sad, but TRUE

[-] 2 points by Nevada1 (4835) 1 year ago

Good articles shadz. Incorporation and unreasonable consumers-----"The Perfect Storm".

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''The End of U.S. Capitalism - An Interview With America’s New Socialist Council Member'', by Josh Eidelson : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36895.htm .

Solidarity 'Nev1' & consider ... it's always darkest before dawn ~*~

per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''Fake patriots proclaim a love for their country, while ensuring that there is nothing left to love. They are loyal to the pageantry – the flags, the coinage, the military parades – but intensely disloyal to the nation these symbols are supposed to represent. The greater the dissonance becomes, the louder the national anthem plays.'' from :

fallaces sunt rerum species ...

[-] 0 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

Its why this constant blabbering from the 10% on each side of the establishment backers keeps getting louder and louder the more and more registered voters they lose.

MSNBC has brought back crossfire, what a joyous program that used to be. And hired the Baldwin hothead that called his own daughter a spoiled pig, for the late night idiots.

There is no critical thinking in politics in this country. Its recite, recite, recite.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Truth. And to corroborate your comment and for later perusal, as well as the above I also recommend :

multum in parvo ...

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, there are those that spend entirely to much time worrying about MSNBC, while ignoring what's happening in the community all around them.. ..

How's your PR work coming along. Is active avoidance part of the tactic?

Here's a guy who's spent a lot of time, money and effort to STOP people he doesn't like from voting.

http://www.rickscottwatch.blogspot.com/

( there's a guy who actually DOES pay attention to what's going on all around him.)

It's got absolutely NOTHING to do with MSNBC, although you will find a heavy dose of FLAKESnews involved.

Hmmm......You never say a word about FLAKESnews.

They must not broadcast in Florida.

[-] 0 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

No one was speaking to you. Go troll someone else.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

Says the the troll who keeps on coming back, and never answers a question with any degree of honesty.......Gets all pissed off and name calling, instead.

This is what your get when your shit hits the top comments.

I'll throw it right back at ya, ya troll. HATER of the 99%.

Did you have that on your sign? How everybody but you is an ass?

Hey?

Hows things over at the John Birch Society, and Alex Jones?

You never did say what you like about them.

But I did notice, that his links are the ones who have no FEAR of following.

You still haven't followed the money in N. Carolina, troll.

Why don't you try and do that now?

Keep attacking people the way you are now, and you will be in need of yet another puppet........

This I guarantee..

[-] 0 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

"This is what your get when your shit hits the top comments."

I'm being punished for people voting up my comments?

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

Just keep "thin ice" in mind.

Being up there makes you fair game, is all I'm sayin'.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

Fair game for what?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10............. whew.

I almost got pissed, there.

I really don't want to believe you weren't actually following the conversation, even though you've taken it across a few threads.

Please don't piss and moan about a response to a "top" comment, or anywhere else for that matter.

Respond to what was said in it, instead.

Now if you don't mind, I have some laundry to do.

Play nice.................................:)

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

Again, no one was talking to you to begin with. It was a reply to Shadz originally.

Go do your laundry.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

Gettin' thinner.

Just sayin'.

[Removed]

[Removed]

[Removed]

[Removed]

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

You can't jump on someones threads- three times in the matter of 5 minutes- attack them, and then threaten to ban them.

Thats called being a tyrant and abusive. Check yourself.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

Are you writing checks you can't cash again?

I fear you are.

If you would be so kind as to show me where that is written.

It's not you are innocent of that behavior anyway.

Did you follow that money yet???

In N. Carolina?

I doubt it.

Here's the latest.

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/north-carolina-first-cut-welfare-thousands-needy-children-and-families-due

[-] 4 points by Renneye (4147) 1 year ago

Hi 'sff'...just a quick line to say how much I followed your past work with interest, and it's great to see you here again!

Thanks for the Noam Chomsky clip.

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Thanks for the kind words. Glad you liked the clip.

[-] 2 points by Devonshire (81) from Norwich, VT 1 year ago

My opinion; Chomsky never spoke truer words.

We need to oganize, educate, and resist this corrupt aganda, and its beneficiaries.

[-] 1 points by greenanarchosyndicalist (85) 1 year ago

chris hedges is openly calling for revolution. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO5LxVUq8fU

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Thanks for the link. I'll watch the entire thing when I find the time.

[-] 0 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

"How to fight back and win?"

"Carry out actions"... This doubles off of what Hedges was saying in the video with the Green Party.

We dont need more movie nights, we dont need more meetings. We need actions.

The energy is there, the desire for change is there. But the platforms to express it are few and far in between. People want it, but they have to know about it to get involved. And to know about it and cut through the clutter, it needs to happen more than once.

Hence Occupy's 24/7 protest. Hence MAM already planning for May 2-14. Repetition.

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by rfinva2013 (0) 1 year ago

Actions that threaten power create a vacuum that self-interested people tend to fill. Be sure you know what the end game will be when trying to take down the world as it is today. Take away the jobs created today by striking against capitalism and jobs will be few. And workers will be plenty unless they are being supported by a government that is running out of money. Everyone will lose in this environment.

By the way, has anyone tallied up the wins that were accomplished by Occupy Wall Street over the last two years? What really changed in America? Or was the allowance to occupy everywhere by the Obama administration another example of creating a distraction from what was really happening in Washington DC and elsewhere in the country and the world before the presidential election.

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Our goal should be to establish a libertarian socialist society. That means that we should challenge and eventually dismantle all illegitimate hierarchies and undemocratic structures, and establish a solidaric society with a well organized participatory democracy with a co-operative economic system.

The Occupy Movement has contributed substantially to getting many important issues on the agenda. Things like inequality and corporate greed and dominance are now being discussed and talked about like never before. It has also created optimism and increased engagement and organizing. The movement has also brought attention to things that have been oppressed for a long time, but which are just basic human characteristics: feelings of solidarity and the care for others. The Occupy Movement has brought people together in the common struggle for a more free, just and democratic society. We also have to remember the long term perspective. It’s going to take time and hard work to dismantle this unsustainable system we have today.

[-] -1 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

Be prepared for various insults that involve unicorns, fairy tales and other assorted uneducated paraphernalia.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Hi, hchc. Last time we talked I asked you what you thought about Ron Paul and (right-wing) libertarians wanting huge tax cuts for the millionaires and billionaires, while at the same time wanting to cut welfare services for the poor and unemployed. You never answered.

Where do you stand on these issues?

[-] -2 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

I dont think any tax levels should be addressed until the loopholes are.

The tax rates are fine, its the loopholes that allow for the trillions to get off no taxes. I'd close every loophole, all of em.

Tying safety nets to education and public service could result in some incredibly beneficial aspects for society. As it is now, the establishment just tosses money at it, no real priority except to get as many people hooked on the system as possible.

40 million people, mostly children, relying on the government for food is terrifying.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

So you disagree with ultra right-wingers like Ron Paul and others when they suggest giving the wealthy huge tax cuts and cutting welfare programs for the poor?

the richest 1% own almost 50% of invested capital. So, when all the loopholes have been closed, how much do you think we should raise taxes on the financial elite?

I think we should work to better conditions and rights for workers, students, unemployed, seniors -- the 99 %, and weaken the power and influence of the non-elected financial elite. Raising taxes on the wealthy is one of many things that eventually should be done in order to create a more equal and just society. Do you agree?

[-] 0 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

With trillions in offshore accounts, bailouts and financial scams, closing the loopholes would be sufficient in my mind.

We want decent healthcare, and decent education. We can pay for these things very easily by doing that. Personally, Im not concerned with increasing my luxuries as much as I am making sure the basics for the less fortunate are taken care of, and they get a fair shake.

Thats really what I am about- a fair shake. Right now its a fascist/corporatist nightmare. Its not so much my lack of money that irritates me, its the fact that a certain group get to play by one set of rules, and I get another, and its those that get the perks that are making the rules that totally screw me and make my life less enjoyable.

Cameras everywhere, shit in my food, my money constantly being fucked with, taking my money for wars I dont approve of, taking away more and more of my rights, limiting my say in things at every opportunity, telling me theres no money for library at USF while giving the president a 500k+ salary, etc etc etc.

As of right now the game is rigged.

A 16 Trillion dollar economy taxed at 20% would be 3.2 Trillion. Balanced budget, done deal. End the wars and use it for higher education, now thats socialized in the system. Universal healthcare would actually lower the cost, the problem with getting that through is the lobby.

Its quite manageable to get the finances of the country straightened out, theres just no political will because theres not enough will from the populace.

I'd like to see some trust busting going on, some SERIOUS trust busting going on, decentralize the marketplace quite a bit.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Ok. I said earlier that I think we should work to establish a libertarian socialist / anarchist society, in which the economic institutions in society are democratized and controlled collectively by the participants -- the communities and the workforce. Then we would have a decentralized co-operative economic system without huge corporations buying politicians and so on. Do you agree with me ?

[-] 0 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

" Then we would have a decentralized co-operative economic system without huge corporations buying politicians and so on"

Yes. Everyone always gets afraid of democracy- the whole mob rule tendencies- but its actually hard hard work. Much harder than trolling to the polls once every 1000+ days.

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Time for that million march on the white house.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

So you're not going to stop insulting people?

This won't go well for you.

You're notoriety proceeds you.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

Who felt insulted by that?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 1 year ago

You'll find out.

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by FrenchFontes (23) 1 year ago

Capitalism is all about unicorn and rainbows. Communism/Socialism is the only realistic economic system.

[-] -1 points by FrenchFontes (23) 1 year ago

Social Change is about destroying the capitalist hierarchy. Noam is a great man!!

[-] -2 points by drinkbrondo (-71) 1 year ago

Oh yes...socialism is definitely the way to go. Look at how swell it is working around the globe. You fucking liberals are mind numb zombies..."please tell us what to do...run our lives Dear Leader".

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

What do you mean by "socialism"?

I (as well as NC) support real socialism: libertarian socialism. A LS society would be based on more direct democracy and a co-operative economy. This is perfectly feasible. We’ve seen many examples of societies and communities based on libertarian socialist, or at least libertarian socialist-like principles that have worked very well:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/workplace-democracy-and-workers-self-management/

[-] 0 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

People are much more open to socialist policies when it is local, as opposed to state capitols or DC taking the money and using it for war, bailouts and wall st boosters.

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Sure. But these policies are no laws of nature. Government can also be used to better conditions for workers, creating better social safety nets, and redistributing wealth, so that the power of the non-elected financial elite is weakened. But yeah, decentralized socialism (libertarian socialism) with a participatory democracy controlled form below, is what we should strive for.

[-] -2 points by nazihunter (215) 1 year ago

Yes, and where was he in the 70s? 80s? 90s? Chom is an opportunist. Nothing more.

[-] 2 points by Devonshire (81) from Norwich, VT 1 year ago

So you believe it's those dang poor people that are the problem...and not the likes... & lies of Larry Summers, Alan Greespan, Robert Rubin, Jamie Dimon and the rest of the corrupt crew?? That's funny.

[-] -3 points by Socrates451 (-15) 1 year ago

Kinda funny. Chomsky has dozens of books for sale on Amazon, that tax avoiding capitalistic monolith.

Some anti capitalist. NOT!

[-] 6 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

That made no sense. Capitalism is a system based on private ownership of the means of production and capitalists profiting on other people's labor, not whether people buy an author's books on Amazon or not. And being opposed to capitalism does not necessarily mean you're opposed to markets and money etc (cf market socialism etc)

Also, the fact that a writer has many fans who buy and enjoy his books, does not mean he's deprived his own principles and opinions.

[-] -2 points by Socrates451 (-15) 1 year ago

He markets his books thru Amazon.

Here is Amazon's wage structure;

Amazon wouldn't say how much it pays its workers. But according to data gathered by career website Glassdoor.com, Amazon pays its 20,000 warehouse workers an average hourly wage of about $12, which is below the national average.

He sounds like a true capitalist to me. His books are being marketed by folks making less than a living wage, $12/hr. He is a sham, a fraud.

Plus Amazon doesn't pay state sales taxes whenever they can get away with it, which is strongly to Chomsky's advantage. What a sucker a person is to follow this slimebag.

[-] 2 points by dadina (3) 1 year ago

Dumb comment.

[-] -2 points by Socrates451 (-15) 1 year ago

Opposition to capitalism absolutely means opposition to market economy. Capitalism means profits. Chomsky has a printer working for slave wages making his books.

[-] 4 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 1 year ago

Keep going. You're making a pretty good argument against Capitalism.

[-] -1 points by Socrates451 (-15) 1 year ago

I am not for or against capitalism. I am against hypocrites of which Chomsky is the worst.

[-] 4 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 1 year ago

Then, you must be against all mankind, because I never met anybody who wasn't a hypocrite to some degree or another. You must be a lonely person.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Rightwing politicians and their press and duped followers, use talk of patriotism to disguise where their true loyalty lies - with the wealthy elite. Good to see you back around these parts 'JC' & though a little from a UK perspective, as the issues therein are universal in our oligarchic sham demockerycies - I append and recommend the following to you wholeheartedly :

''Subversion ain't what it used to be. Today it scarcely figures as a significant force. Nation states are (now) threatened by something else. 'Superversion' : an attack from above.'' Hope all is well or at the very least least tolerable, with you and yours, 'JC'. Solidarity.

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 4 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 1 year ago

Great article. Sums up their nasty game exactly.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''While politician & banker salaries and pensions are protected and golden handshakes are the order of the day for retiring civil servants and financial regulators, extra taxes, cutbacks in services and attending the funerals of family members and friends who could no longer cope with the stress and strain is now common place for many Irish people.'' from :

at spes non fracta ...

[-] 3 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 1 year ago

Keep flinging justice at them, the bastards can't dodge forever.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''Keep flinging justice at them ... the bastards can't dodge forever'' is a lovely turn of phrase 'JC' & really warrants repeating - often :-) Also at a wee tangent but still related to current realities, please consider :

'credo ergo sum' ?

[Removed]