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Forum Post: No one wants health insurance unless its dead free

Posted 10 years ago on April 17, 2013, 5:55 p.m. EST by PerfectCast4 (-6)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I offered health insurance to all my staff, 15 in total. The premium was $460. I was required to cover $400, the employee had to cover the $60. How many signed up? ZERO. I then offered to pick up the entire premium. How many signed up, all 15. I offred it for a few years, but then one day in lieu of the Med Ins, I offered to give them $200 raise/per month. They all dropped the insurance for the raise. Saved me $300/ employee and put an additional $3600/monthly right in my bank account.

Young healthy people dont want insurance unless its utterly free. Obamacare is dead in the water.



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[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 10 years ago

Sounds like you gotta pay them more AND give them health insurance.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 10 years ago

Everyone wants healthcare! Absolutely!


We just gotta make it cheaper.

[-] 1 points by Shule (2638) 10 years ago

Yep, from talking to a lot of folks, not just young people, I get that sense too. I hear too many people saying "why do I need health care when there is the emergency room?"

Simply socially irresponsible.

Young people especially need to think. They eventually get old too. .. unless of course they die from some accident or illness first.

[-] 1 points by MsStacy (1035) 10 years ago

Most won't die or need an emergency room, that is exactly the point on which health insurance is based, most won't need it or the value of the premiums they pay in.

The lack of responsibility isn't much of a shock. People in general lack significant personal responsibility why would you expect them to have social responsibility?

[-] 1 points by Shule (2638) 10 years ago

Its like russian roulette. One never knows when one needs it, but when one does it is good to have some health care. My bet is that you are not over 50, or are very lucky. Anyone of any age will know; there are certain things that inevitably creep up on you that will require care from a health professional, and if you are not covered you're either screwed, or screwing somebody in getting fixed up. Take enlarged prostrate for example. No matter what all men will eventually get it. If you're lucky you will die first.

I know a lot of people lack social responsibility, but I do expect them to have it because that is the only socially responsible thing to do.If they don't have it, they need to be taught, or for the sake of the rest of society it needs to be administered upon them. We do have jails for people who can't behave.

[-] 1 points by MsStacy (1035) 10 years ago

The insurance industry profits from that game of russian roulette. The companies make a profit because the premiums paid by the average individual are greater then the cost of medical services rendered. I agree, none of the statistics matter if you are the one in many that get seriously ill. It's simply a fact that most people won't. Roughly one third of the population will face a hospital stay and the average cost of that is around $18000. That's about four or five years of premiums, if you're on an inexpensive plan with a high deductible.

People need to be taught personal responsibility and social responsibility because as a group they possess neither one. I can't blame an active healthy individual that resents paying an inflated premium because the government is calling a voluntary act like smoking a pre-existing condition. I see no reason to take care of individuals that refuse to take care of themselves. It's no secret that obesity, smoking, drinking, lack of physical activity all put you at risk.

The social responsibility is fairly easy to force. The ACA mandates we all by coverage, or at least pay a tax. Single payer health care is the only way to go and maybe someday we'll wake up and do health care right. However, I'd love to see some mechanism for forcing some personal responsibility on people.

[-] 2 points by Shule (2638) 10 years ago

Single payer would be nice.

I remember back in the '70s I got totally free health care from my employer; saw any doctor I wanted at anytime, was 100% covered, never paid a premium. Everybody in the company by mandate paid a certain proportion of their income into the company's health care plan. Then sometime in the mid '80s something started happening. These HMOs came in and started talking "everyone pay the same rates, families with kids pay extra, people need options, people have the option to opt out, yada, yada,...pay as you use." ( Of course a lot of young single people making lots of money bought into that.) Things started going south after that.

Obviously, taking out insurance is basically betting against oneself. At the same time it is what wise investors call "hedging your bet." Actually, because everyone eventually gets old, everyone will eventually get some kind of an ailment requiring health care, so one’s personnel health is something worth hedging on ( I might be preaching to the choir here.)

Anyway, as I'm sure you know, a well run health insurance plan should not really cost too much because as you point out not too many people get sick at anyone time, so collectively the medical costs when spread across a society are really not that much. ( Everyone would need to chip in though, and that is what the AMA seeks to establish. )

I surmise our health insurance system here in the U.S.A is seriously corrupted, and based on too many false assumptions (Otherwise rates would not be as high as they are), and that is what is driving people away.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 10 years ago

I don't know anything about Tribalism... I think you are pulled that way and maybe have some contacts in this. There is anthropology to support what you are saying here. I think you have some contact with older cultures or just contact with current politics.

So, ... I guess we are all waiting to see you references.

Have you only Studied:

a) One US Culture
b) Many US cultures in one Municipal Area
c) One US Culture in on specific Municipal area
d) Many US Cultures in many Municipal Areas
e) Many US Cultures in many Municipal & Rural areas through out the USA under the supervision of a university.

Or... are you something else.

I can follow some thoughts or proposals about people taking care of themselves. However I'm a little uninformed. I know there are many old people that no longer work. I know that there are many people that will lose funding/dollars if there is a total cut on disability categories.

Really there are many people disabled, ill, elderly, or who have benefits from military families who died/ My first impression is that military families lose benefits first.

It is hard to cut these benefits if they are kids. Even if these kids end up joining the military, it is hard.

[-] 1 points by MsStacy (1035) 10 years ago

I simply offered an opinion about why people and especially young healthy people don't get health insurance. any numbers I offered in support of my opinion were simply collected from a google search or two.

If I had the power to initiate a health plan, we'd have a single payer system with the bulk covered by the government but with everyone paying something.

I have not made a study of anthropology in particular, my field is education.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

It must be our morning Tea Party shyte.

[-] 1 points by MsStacy (1035) 10 years ago

Insurance is what it is, I'm not claiming the system is good, just pointing out why so many don't buy into it.

Single payer is the way to go and I don't think that's a tea party position. Lack of social and personal responsibility seems an obvious observation too, also nothing to do with your tea party.

[-] 1 points by PerfectCast4 (-6) 10 years ago

Sorry $4500 went into my bank account. Per month.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

You greedy bastard !!! Scurried off without a word, huh ?!! Cat got your tongue ?! So once again :

I'll bet your employees pay their taxes - but do you ? You claim on this thread to be $54,000 per annum better off in the pocket by getting your employees to take the cash money in the short term, but will you declare all of that ? What are you off-setting against any taxes you may pay ? What are your actual and marginal tax rates compared to that of your employees ? You smug, oafish, exploitative scumbag. Dolt !

radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ...


[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

Of course -
no young person ever gets cancer
no young person ever has a car accident
no young person turns down money
no young person makes the best decisions all of the time


like virtually all other "first world counties"
we should have Medicare for all
AND here is the part that brings out the nay-sayers:

we must vote against pro-corporate legislators
we must vote against pro-1% legislators
we must vote against R legislators
we must vote for pro-people legislators
we must vote for pro-99% legislators
we must vote for electable legislators
we must vote for D legislators

Education, convincing the people to join the side of sanity is NOT the answer

The recent background check is all of the proof we need -
90% of Americans wanted it passed,
but the elected Rs stopped what Americans wanted & what 20 dead children demanded

If you are one of the R=D people,
one of the anti-government league,
one of the no-voters
PLEASE add this all up & see if you can deduce a new approach

[-] 0 points by freewriterguy2 (3) 10 years ago

that was the original idea why people voted for Obama we wanted affordable health care for everyone, or have the government pay for it. Its not like they cant afford it cause they still give hundreds of billions of dollars away to other countries in aid.

[-] 0 points by Hardship (3) 10 years ago

Its all so crazy....

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 10 years ago

Health is completely in elastic, and there is too much technology needed for clinics for a small guy to afford it and only charge enough to make his $400 a day. Plus with the rate of technology changing, swapping out the tech is needed on a yearly basis, so taking out loans for the stuff isnt a reasonable expectation either.

Universal is the only way to go.

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

You big jack ass. I hope you lose every god damned thing.

[-] -2 points by justiceforzim (-17) 10 years ago

GF, glad to see you are as charming as ever. You are the poster child for liberal tolerance and understanding.

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

What happened there, pal? Too chickenshit to stick with one ID.

[-] -2 points by Nationwide (-93) 10 years ago

Yep, can't suspend the laws of economics as they are based on human nature.

[-] -3 points by beautifulworld (23760) 10 years ago

Sounds to me like they prefer eating to health insurance.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 10 years ago

Eating or insurance isn't the choice for me I have a good income. I will however be paying whichever is lower, a premium on the cheapest policy I can find or the tax penalty. I've been without insurance for a decade and would continue to go without if allowed to.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23760) 10 years ago

What you think is your "freedom" now will be your economic shackles if you have an accident or become seriously ill. Good luck with that. I think our education system has failed completely in teaching people about personal finance which is exactly how TPTB want it.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 10 years ago

If I have an accident, yes it may be, but that is my risk to take, not government's business to force on me. I'm probably not typical, I've actually got my own personal account with funds put away to cover the possibility of an accident. It would certainly hurt if I had to empty that account for an accident or heart attack, but it is my decision.

I refuse to pay ever increasing premiums because the overweight, the inactive, the smokers, the heavy drinkers all refuse to take care of themselves and force premiums up. The powers that be in the insurance business would prefer to charge high risk individuals higher premiums. That at least would be fair to the rest of us. I'm not talking about medical conditions that are out of our control.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23760) 10 years ago

"Free" to die on the sidewalk while Ron Paul and the like looks on. Woo hoo. Sounds great. You play right into the hands of the insurance profiteers.

Insurance should be NON-PROFIT. Our health and it's care should provide no one with profit, just fair payment.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 10 years ago

I don't play at all, I'm fortunate in that my health has always been good. I'll enroll in Medicare at some point most likely. I do see that as in my best interest. Cancer and death have been considered. I've seen friends die from cancer and others that actually died from the cure not the cancer. If I do get an aggressive cancer I plan to reject treatment. Maybe I can sell Ron Paul a ticket.

Insurance for profit or not I don't care either way. If the government can't or won't provide insurance then any that do are entitled to a fair return. I do believe that a single payer system would be best. I'd like to see everyone also required to actually pay something out of pocket for it. What I find distressing is the common belief that it could ever be free. It isn't and won't ever be.

There is also a difference between medical conditions suffered through little or no fault of your own and those that are self inflicted. Engage in a high risk behavior and that person should be required to pay more or give up the unhealthy habit. I get irritated with those people who claim to have difficulty paying for a single doctor visit, but come up with the money to buy cigarettes or alcohol each day.

[+] -4 points by Margey (-33) 10 years ago

Huh? How about people teach themselves personal finance? How about people take the initiative to pick up a book and read something once in a while?

Why is everything always someone else's fault? It's not TPTB. It's laziness by the individual.

[-] 3 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 10 years ago

Here's a fact about finance you must have forgotten to teach yourself. Real income adjusted for inflation hasn't increased for the lower 90% for the last four decades. Even you're getting screwed but don't realize it.


[+] -4 points by Margey (-33) 10 years ago

Here's another fact: start taking care of yourself instead of bemoaning your station in life all day.

Don't tell me what I realize. I know a helluva lot more than you about economics and it's you keynesian fools who are driving the economy into the tank.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 10 years ago

The top 10% taking 50% of all income has nothing to do with economic theory, it is economic fact. Care to dispute it?

Please provide evidence backing your statement "it's you keynesian fools who are driving the economy into the tank".

[-] -3 points by Builder (4202) 10 years ago

Poor choices in eating habits are known to cause health problems.

Just like tobacco gets taxed to cover future health issues, junk foods should be taxed on a sliding scale depending on their effects on health.

Our Micky D's have salads and light chicken wraps, as well as fruit salads and fruit smoothies.

If people choose to make themselves a burden on society through their eating/drinking habits, then they get to pay up front. It's called User Pays.

[-] -3 points by justiceforzim (-17) 10 years ago

Obama's new budget adds $1/pk for smokes and that money is not going to future health issues, it is to fund his 'free' pre school for all.

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 10 years ago

Aren't schools being closed in their thousands across some states?

[-] -2 points by justiceforzim (-17) 10 years ago

Well, the city of Chicago is closing a bunch of schools. I think there was a thread calling the move racist here. Am not aware of mass closings anywhere else. Am sure it makes sense to some extent since the boomers haven't reproduced at the rates of their parents.

[-] -3 points by beautifulworld (23760) 10 years ago

I get your point, but I was actually referring to how low their wages likely are. The fact that they choose not to buy health benefits for such a low amount (if this story is even true) is likely a function of how low their wages are in the first place. They'd prefer to have enough money to pay rent and to eat, etc. than to buy health insurance.

[-] -2 points by PerfectCast4 (-6) 10 years ago

Their average hourly was $17, ranging from $12-$29. I never start anyone at less than $12/hr. You cant get decent help for less. All were just high school graduates and none over 35 years old. $24000 a year for an 19 year old out of high school is pretty decent.

So you are wrong.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (23760) 10 years ago

Show the proof.

[-] -2 points by PerfectCast4 (-6) 10 years ago

How? there are confidentiality laws. It was the United Healthcare Plan 3 option designed for small groups.

UnitedHealthcare Options PPO PPO The freedom to choose any doctor for your health care needs. No referrals needed Cost savings by going to a network physician It is the member's responsibility to obtain approvals for both network and non-Network services If a non-network physician is chosen, out-of-pocket costs will be higher and it is the member's responsibility to submit claims 2-5,000 <<<

That was the plan. The premiums have fallen, as the owner/employer, I had to pay $1159/month but now that has fallen to $992. This is a small group plan. I originally paid their whole premium inorder to provide a solid core of healthy young employees so as to keep overall premiums down, however it got me nothing in terms of employee good will and it was cheaper to just give them raises and pocket the $4500. They were much happier with another $200 per month salary and I was happier with an extra $4500. Win/win. Who suffers? Older sicker enrollees because insurance absolutely depends on lots of healthy youngsters providing a premium base for sicker older folks.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23760) 10 years ago

If any of your story is true you prove why we need universal healthcare. It would be very simple to put everyone in Medicare. Make it universal by including all of us. Once the healthy and the young are mixed in with the old and the sickly, the costs of Medicare would lower. Having any health plan that just includes people over 65 is ridiculous and would of course, be very expensive. So, thanks for making that point.

[-] -2 points by PerfectCast4 (-6) 10 years ago

Naturally you miss the point entirely. We dont really need the young because they are healthy, we need them to PAY PREMIUMS AND NOT USE SERVICES. We need their money, not them. Just including them without their money would bankrupt Medicare. As it is, Medicare costs $13000 per retiree. Medicare isnt insurance. Fire protection for a house is insurance. Every one pays into a pot and the few that get a fire are protected. We needs 10s of 1000s of young people pay premiums so that 10s of elderly can be protected.

Where is the money for your plan coming from? If we create a VAT, regressive in nature, we can get a public option. The VAT tags everyone, young and old alike. Thats what we need.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23760) 10 years ago

You get my point. You just don't like my point. Obviously, placing the healthy and the young into Medicare would do just that. They'd pay premiums and NOT use services unless they had to. Young people do get sick and have accidents. They do need insurance. And, they'd pay premiums because they wouldn't have to get their health insurance from crappy employers like you. The entire thing would be fully funded and much cheaper to run. You just don't want to hear those truths. Those truths are too scary for f-khead employers like you that want to control people's lives.

[-] -3 points by PerfectCast5 (-7) 10 years ago

they wont pay premiums. I proved that. They have to be forced but how do you force them. And a fuckhead employer? I gave them free health insurance, FREE. They dumped it the river for a measly $200.

I guess you arent too bright. This was their choice: I will continue to pay ALL your healthcare premiums or do you want $200 salary increase? all took the $200. Their premium was $500!!

and people in this thread say they would do exactly the same so you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. What a dolt. You have no clue about human nature.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (23760) 10 years ago

You have proven absolutely nothing except that you want to prove that young people are bad and greedy and stupid, when in reality it is people like you that are dumb and greedy and stupid. You don't even understand the basic premise of insurance which is risk and sharing risk. Once everyone is in the same health plan, risk is shared to the maximum degree and the insurance is the cheapest for everyone. Everyone benefits.

Tell me why exactly is health insurance tied to employment? Why isn't our car insurance tied to employment? Do you think this is the only way that health insurance can be structured?

Health insurance should be wholly removed from the purview of the employer. Power to the workers!

[-] 1 points by MsStacy (1035) 10 years ago

Government intervention plus unintended and unforeseen consequences tied health insurance to the employer. Blame FDR, it was called the Stabilization Act, passed in 1942. The intent was to hold down inflation, it prevented businesses from offering higher pay to attract employees. Big corporations needed more employees for the production of war materials and it was illegal to offer higher wages. They began offering health insurance as a benefit and as a way around the law. The practice caught on and now everyone feels entitled to it.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (23760) 10 years ago

That is all interesting history, but today, in many states there is no way to get health insurance if it is not offered through an employer. So, somewhere along the way this became not only common practice, but law as well, that healthcare is tied to employment. This needs to be changed!

[-] 1 points by MsStacy (1035) 10 years ago

In what states can you not buy insurance? I don't think employer based insurance was law before the ACA, it was just expected of larger companies.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23760) 10 years ago

You cannot buy health insurance for comprehensive coverage only in any state as far as I know. The problem is that they force you to purchase very expensive polices that cover basic doctor visits and stuff you could pay out of pocket and that is the insurance that is very expensive. They, therefore, prevent people from being able to purchase insurance unless they set up their own corporation to create an employer sponsored plan which is much cheaper.

We need universal care, at least at the comprehensive level, for everyone regardless of whether or not they have a job. This would make the pool huge and would eliminate all the costs that can come out of a person's pocket. Then as the plan matured you could add more and more of the doctor visit type stuff. But we really need, as a society, to eliminate the huge risk of healthcare off the backs of every single person.

[-] -1 points by PerfectCast3 (-36) 10 years ago

Certainly they will take healthcare coverage if there is no cost to them. What hasn't been proved s their universal desire to pay for it. My example and the example of others is NO, they will not pay for it. Expanding the pool without money does not help.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

Must be time for our nightly Tea Party shyte.

[-] -1 points by PerfectCast3 (-36) 10 years ago

Yes bring in the young, they won't need any health services. However you cat just bring them in, they need to pay into the pool. How do you make them PAY if in fact as s many here ave stated young people do not see health care and its cost as valuable?

Where is the money for them?

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23760) 10 years ago

See Shadz' comment below. And, keep in mind, that when you bring the young people into the pool, all people under the age of 65, you bring down costs so much so, that everyone pays much much less for the insurance. It becomes affordable through general taxation as Shadz says.

They do this in almost every other developed nation. Why are we so stupid here that we pool the sickest and oldest people in one pool?!! And, leave the rest at risk and at the mercy of employers, who could give a crap about their employees, but for the desire to control them?

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

By General Taxation of course, numbnuts & how about Corporations pay their fair share of tax too ?!!!

I'll bet your employees pay their taxes - but do you ? You claim on this thread to be $54,000 per annum better off in the pocket by getting your employees to take the cash money in the short term, but will you declare all of that ? What are you off-setting against any taxes you may pay ? What are your actual and marginal tax rates compared to that of your employees ? You smug, oafish, baby-boomer halfwit ! Dolt !!

temet nosce ...

[-] -2 points by PerfectCast3 (-36) 10 years ago

Yes. FDR forced employers to give med ins because they couldn't raise pay. Another progressive fuck up.

[-] 0 points by MsStacy (1035) 10 years ago

That wasn't his intention, but that certainly was the result. Government didn't say anything one way or the other about health insurance, they simply froze wages.

Today we look at it as some kind of entitlement. People have no idea what health care costs and they don't care as long as someone else pays when they need it.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 10 years ago

Ah, the old "They were forced to" bullshit.

I suppose you think Obama is forcing this shit now, as opposed to just standing up there being their puppet?

[-] -2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 10 years ago

It's our daily dose of tea party shyte.

[+] -4 points by PerfectCast3 (-36) 10 years ago

How do you FORCE young people to pay into a plan they won't get much benefit? Please answer. I proposed a VAT of about 17-21%. That would work. It would be very regressive in nature but in fact any healthcare premium has to be very regressive in nature. That's how Europe does it.

Dumb and stupid? You the loser who has a shit $10/hr job. Hahahaha. That's dumb and stupid. Real stupid. I meet a payroll you meet a little fucking paycheck. how dumb is that!!?? Get some knee pads when I enter the room, you know what you will have to do to earn my praise.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

It’s a full time occupation trying to unravel the reasons Americans remain in the dark ! What seems to an outsider like sheer stupidity and arrogance is in reality an almost inescapable, deep indoctrination process that begins before you are born and ends some time after you're dead !! It's a system that is now so complex and so all encompassing that few can recognize any reality outside of it at all - and that of course is its intended purpose !!!

Face up to the health care crisis which is approaching 20% of the U.S. GDP. The United States has the most cost-inefficient health care system in the world. Other nations have succeeded in delivering quality health care at half the price paid in the U.S. To avert national bankruptcy the United States must put in place a publicly funded national health insurance plan as the clear basis for quality, universal access to health care. This would end dependence on the private health insurance industry which makes up one-third the health care cost with the overheads and the bureaucracy it creates.

A National Health Plan will also help the auto, airline, steel and other big businesses and will also make it easier for small and medium size businesses to start and expand. The Obama health reform will leave tens of millions without insurance, fails to control the rising cost of health care and really entrenches the insurance industry further in their dominance of U.S. health care and so we may agree there - but failure to control the costs of health care ensures a longer term increase in government deficits, the failure and stifling of small business & the continued bankruptcy of Americans - as healthcare costs are the single biggest reason for personal bankruptcy in The U$A !!

Real economic security demands a national health insurance plan. The United States needs to improve Medicare and provide it to all Americans. This will save money, provide health care to all, control costs and begin to improve health care in the United States which is faltering and producing worse outcomes.

You of course are an uncouth, offensive, ignorant, exploitative & arrogant oaf so I don't expect you to be able to compute the arguments being made here by me or others but nevertheless, I append :

You sum-up yourself, your attitude and your specious, self-absorbed B-S in your own words very well & I can and need do no more than simply quote you :

However, many thanx for this V.I.P - Very Important Post, 'cause it gives an important insight into the kind of mentality that is bringing The U$A to such depths of despair and the young and the youth to come, do and will get that - 'The Only Way Is Up' : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtKADQnjQmc !!

You should consider pulling your head out of your ass and doing something about your soft head and hard heart - like reversing your polarity 'cause it's you "That's dumb and stupid. Real stupid" & it's scum fuckers like you who could make peaceable folk reach for knobbly sticks, lol !! You'll breath your last soon enough but what thereafter ? My money is on the Camel heading for the eYe of that there Needle !

nosce te ipsum ...

[-] 4 points by factsrfun (8310) from Phoenix, AZ 10 years ago

This post is a fucking bunch of bullshit, and no doubt a pack of lies.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

This is O.W.S. and ... "You don't get a ... revolution by supporting the status quo." (bw) & ...

ad iudicium ...

[+] -5 points by PerfectCast3 (-36) 10 years ago

I will prove it. If there s a lib in Denver, I will take him to my insurance broker, and I will have that person read the documentation of my story.

Young people want healthcare but they don't want to PAY for it. The true cost.

[-] 3 points by Renneye (3874) 10 years ago

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ...We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society. ...In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons...who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind."

~ "Propaganda" by Edward L. Bernays (the father of modern advertising), 1928.


"I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology. ... It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda ... Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class (Elite). The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated."

~ Bertrand Russell, philosopher, educator and atheist


[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

"The Truth about Socialized Medicine", by Audrey Mayer :

Thanx for your very relevant quotes and rather eye opening link.

fiat lux ...

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 10 years ago

Thanks Renny. That was enlightening

Chomsky's little book Media Control is another good thing to read to understand why so many of us have not awoken


[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 10 years ago

Fear is definitely one of the techniques in the oligarchs' repertoire to control us,

And probably nowhere is that more evident in the physical sense than in the militarization of the police force, and in the heavy-handed way they broke up the Occupy encampments throughout the country

We're all disappointed that this rev is not further along than it is, but 'worrying' doesn't help

We just have to keep PERSEVERING. What else can we do?

The dynamic that is our strongest is we have young people whose future does not add up, and they have the most energy and determination to carry this through

Three or four times a week, i drop off Occupy lit at different places (totaling 10-20 copies), and i engage people in conversation whenever i can, and then go to NYC to take part in Occupy events about once a week

It's only a matter of time, but whether it is before or after an economic catastrophe is anyone's guess, and no matter what, that negative scenario may not be able to be averted

Chris Hedges who covered the up-risings in Eastern Europe said, there was no way of predicting these things (revolutions)

Ah ma cherie if i chose to be clear, for sure i would be banned. This Viking is trying his best to learn the fine art of double entendre which I have heard is essential in ~.^ -ing... & leave at least 'some' of those barbaric ways behind, but not all of 'em of course. What more could you possibly need than to have Swedeish in you?


[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 10 years ago

Replying here Renny. Many of those quotes are quite alarming for a person of good will.The other person to read about is Ivy Lee (an Edward Bernays' competitor), who is considered by some to be the father of public relations. He was hired by Rockefeller to improve his image after the Ludlowe Masacre in which several men, 2 women and 11 kids died at the hands of the Colorado National Guard who were in cahoots with Rockefeller

His son Jim Lee lived down the road from me in Vermont, and I always considered him to be a pompous ass


As for your sign-off Renny, i was going to call an elderly Swedish friend up for a tranlsation, but i feared it might send her into shock.... especially knowing of your ~.^ing rep & that Swedish is not considered the language of romance, but rather one of just getting down to 'business' ;-) Is it getting hot where you are too?


[-] 3 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 10 years ago

"It's a system that is now so complex and so all encompassing that few can recognize any reality outside of it at all - and that of course is its intended purpose !!!"


[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

A relevant pie chart re. the bigger picture :

fiat lux ; fiat pax ; fiat justitia ...

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 10 years ago

Replying here. The reasons we don't have single-pay universal health care

  • "Fearof losing what we already have, if we are consumers of health care, and of losing our (sometimes excessively high) incomes, if we are individual, or corporate providers of health care."

  • "Ignorance on the part of most Americans about how our health care system now works, that other nations have better health care systems than ours by almost all measurable outcome criteria, and that our health care system could be much better here if we had the political will to change it."

  • "Greed on the parts of lots of people (most of them corporate "people") who are enjoying wind fall profits and would like continue doing so from our present disorganized, poorly regulated and opaque system."

While figs can be a wonderful nutitious food to eat, the acronym FIG when applied to the causes we do not have single-pay universal health care rots


[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

Fear, Ignorance and Greed !!! So beloved of TPTB !! So fk 'em ! Also consider :

Thanx 'O' for your strong comment & Solidarity @ u, OTS, OWS & The 99% !!

timendi causa est nescire ...

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 10 years ago

"We are the many.... they are the few." I just had a little lapse of pessimism there..I should be able to get rid of it with some coconut custard pie & coffee ;-)

Although, it is difficult for me to revel in the death of any human being, the world would clearly have been a better place if there had been fewer people like Thatcher in it

While it is very important for us to know and understand the egregious way that 'they' carried out their 'class struggle against us, it is as equally as important that we do not regress into the same perverse machininations that they did, in the class struggle we are waging against them

Being on and staying on a noble trek is what will sustain us in our efforts to build COMMUNITY in our monumental task

Soliarity shadz...~Odin~

And btw, a bit late, but thanks for your support, "odinson" was not me

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

"Greed, Fear and Other Barriers to Health Care as a Human Right", by Phillip Caper :

"Of all the wealthy countries, only the United States has so far failed to treat health care as a human right. A human right to health care means that everybody receives the same health care whatever their age, gender, health or employment status, racial or religious background, sexual orientation, or wealth and income level.

"One reason I often hear cited for our failure to join all other wealthy nations in making health care a human right is that we can't afford it. Some argue, "We're already spending too much on health care and cannot afford to expand coverage to everybody." They have it backwards. Our failure to expand health care to everybody is a major cause for our high costs, not a reason for not doing more. Slicing and dicing our population into "risk categories" (the fundamental business of the commercial insurance industry), having thousands of different insurance companies (all with their own rules), then arguing about who pays what is very expensive.

"The Institute of Medicine recently reported that around 25 percent of the approximately $3 trillion we spend as a nation annually on health care is wasted."

Btw, of course ''odinson'' was not you - otherwise you'd be called 'Thor' right ?! Lol !! Solidarity.

fiat lux ...


[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 10 years ago

Thanks for those three informative links, although they kinda make me want to go live on a south sea island, & spear fish and eat coconuts, and forget about it all

Before people wake up, it is just a question of whether it will be the cumulative effect of all this bleak news, or a total financial collapse

In either event the latter may not be able to be averted


[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

No, never lose heart ! 'We are many .. they are few' !! Only look back so as to look far forward !!! Ergo :

nil desperandum ...

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 10 years ago

Shadz, that was very well said as you encapsulated the reasons for having universal healthcare in a very succinct way

Of course my compliment does not extend to your righteous chastizing of that "uncouth, offensive, ignorant, exploitive & arrogant oaf," but you do of course have my support there too


[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

Thanx & for further insights into the wider situation and possible solutions :

I may have copied one or more of these revealing articles to you already but am appending here as they sit well in the story of this thread. Solidarity.

multum in parvo ...

[-] 2 points by Renneye (3874) 10 years ago

Yes, some would even consider it fear mongering...and claim we need to stay slow and steady. But I think many here would agree that 'the awakening' isn't happening fast enough. Perhaps its time for people to feel more than just a little worry.

Fear isn't 'all' bad. Its what's kept people alive for a millenia when the inbred .01% marauding troglodytes hobble out of their dank dungeon castles and traverse the earth, sucking the lifeblood out of the peasants.

Sometimes I think its time to light a match under the collective populace. Or yell 'fire'...or...something.

I imagine Jim Lee didn't fall far from his father's apple tree. And thankfully, NO amount of PR could resurrect the reputation of that evil Rockefeller any more.

That may be so, Odin, but I have more in me than just Swedish. ~.^

Lol !! Hmmm...can you be a little more clear, Odin? I just can't make out what you mean with these ....'subtle' nuances! Tell me, mon chere...what ever 'shall' I do with you? ~.^

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2165) from Island Heights, NJ 1 day ago

Replying here Renny. Many of those quotes are quite alarming for a person of good will.The other person to read about is Ivy Lee (an Edward Bernays' competitor), who is considered by some to be the father of public relations. He was hired by Rockefeller to improve his image after the Ludlowe Masacre in which several men, 2 women and 11 kids died at the hands of the Colorado National Guard who were in cahoots with Rockefeller

His son Jim Lee lived down the road from me in Vermont, and I always considered him to be a pompous ass


As for your sign-off Renny, i was going to call an elderly Swedish friend up for a tranlation, but i feared it might send her into shock.... especially knowing of your ~.^ing rep & that Swedish is not considered the language of romance, but rather one of just getting down to 'business' ;-) Is it getting hot where you are too?


↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 1 points by Renneye (3874) 10 years ago

Thanks a bunch Odin! Every once in a while, when pertinent, I like to resurrect my .01% 'quote' threads...and thanks for the Chomsky recommendation! Here's to the 'awakening'.... Skål till uppvaknande av folket!

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2144) from Island Heights, NJ 16 hours ago

Thanks Renny. That was enlightening

Chomsky's little book Media Control is another good thing to read to understand why so many of us have not awoken


↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 10 years ago

Many thanks to the great people in the state of Vermont for helping me raise my three tenacious daughters, and for being a 'beacon of light' to the rest of us



[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 years ago

Thanx for the important & very relevant link. Solidarity @ you, 'the team tenacious' and OTS. Also see :

pax, amor et lux ...


[-] 0 points by PerfectCast3 (-36) 10 years ago

I think Sweden does a good job. What's the population of Sweden? 9 million. Comparing Sweden to the US (or Iceland or any tiny Scandinavian country) is silly. We have more undocumented aliens than Sweden has people. We have more obese people than Sweden has people.

It's an disingenuous comparison, and you know it.

[+] -4 points by PerfectCast3 (-36) 10 years ago

Green Mountain Healthcare of Vermont, the nations first single payer healthcare plan expects to impose an 11% tax to fund the plan. The will be an additional tax added onto other taxes. However more funding sources may be needed. Dr Hsiao reported this as the states administrator.

EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. Additional taxes must be implemented. I am never wrong. :))))))

[-] -3 points by PerfectCast3 (-36) 10 years ago

We have 2 national healthcare plans Medicaid and Medicare. Both are near bankruptcy. My PCP, a really excellent doctor, no longer accepts Medicare. If you go on Medicare, you need to find another MD. Why? Reimbursement rates are too low and the process too cumbersome.

Medicare is bankrupt. You liberal dolts refuse to understand the real cost of MC, it's $13000 per enrollee. The premium an enrollee pays isn't the true cost. $13 grand is the true cost. Medicare has no middleman and its BANKRUPT.

The reason most European countries have a single payer is that every single person is taxed with a VAT. These VATS range from 17-21%. You buy an IPhone for 400E and you get a national VAT of $84E. On top of local sales taxes. A VAT is very regressive. And those health plans are near bankruptcy.

So how do you force a 24 year old to pay into a healthcare plan?

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 10 years ago

Medicare has never had a better state of solvency (solvent through 2024!) NEVER!!

Not anywhere near bankruptcy. You are absolutely, blatantly lying.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 10 years ago

Replying here PC. Yes Sweden has about 9.5 million people, and they like most of the Scandinavian countries do a lot of things right

They are also known for being a kinda healthy outdoorsy people, but their longevity could also be linked to premptive healthcare too, and not having to worry about the cost of a doctor's visit

I also believe, like most of Europe that Swedes do not let food corps put all the shit in their food that we consume in ours on a regularl basis

Sweden has a very generous assylum program that has the support of most of the people. They have taken in many middle-eastern refugees (I believe the highest per capita, per centage in the world), including many Iraqis, and most recently Syrians

It is not a "disingenuous comparison" in comparing the Swedish success in 'single pay, universal healthcare' to what we could also have here

To say that is just being a 'defeatest', and considering you are a businessman, I find that somewhat surprising

I mean, didn't you have some obstacles to overcome in setting up, and maintaining your business? You didn't 'cave' the first time you had what seemed to be an unsurmountable hill to climb, did you?

Are you happy with the fact that people that desparately need it are denied healthcare, or that 60% of people go bankrupt because of an illness, and 80% of those people had insurance before getting sick? They simply could not afford the co-pays, deductibles, the meds, uncovered procedures, the premiums, etc, hence they often ended up losing everything that they worked so hard for all their lives

No person with even the least bit of humanity could be happy about that.

When you have good, altruistic, caring people working hard at setting up an accountable, cost effective system that will not let people be denied healthcare coverage...you should not underestimate their resolve...It will happen

And 'when' Vermont (poulation about 600,000) does it, there is no reason why it could not be implemented on a state by state basis at the very least, and that may even be preferrable


[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 10 years ago

Replying here PC. Assuming your 11% additional tax is correct, that would mean a family of four with a household income of say $50,000 (about the 'median' average in VT unfortunately) would have an additional $5,500 tax burden every year

OK, are you following me so far? Now compare that to the FACT that to insure a family of four today is approaching $20,000 per year....well need i do the math for you?

When you have New Englanders who are good, determined, intelligent, caring people... and who have a long history of going against the grain, and not taking much shit... dating back to the Revolutionary War; to being the home of the three people most responsible for having over-turned that ugly period in our history called McCarthysm; and today having one of the very few people in Congress who speaks for the people, Sen Sanders, well

Do not underestimate Vermont's ability to implement a universal healthcare system that works well, and serves as a prototype for the rest of the country

Now without double-checking your figures, let me take on your implication that countries that have universal healthcare are taxed exccessively

Once again, not knowing if your figures are correct or not because you did not out up a link, I won't bother to either...ok?

So let's take Sweden a country that i have many ties to, and which has universal healthcare as an example.....ok?

Let's start with the FACT, the people there have an almost 3 YEAR LONGER LIFE-SPAN than we do. From my travels throughout a good part of the world, I have found that i ran into far more Swedes than Americans. Then there is that other little thing where Swedes have the highest percentage of people in the world that have second homes. Then let's add yet another little thing; Swedes have a FAR,FAR smaller wage/wealth disparity than we do. My personal anecdote is true, and the rest are FACTS. We'll leave out their wild, crazy celebration of Midsummer where food & grog flow freely...ok...lol

Now those FACTS tell me that Swedes still have plenty of time and money to enjoy life without the worries of not being able to afford healthcare for themselves or their loved ones

My us Vikings have come a long way haven't we PC?


[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (23760) 10 years ago

You speak more of yourself with every word you say. You know nothing about me except for the fact that I bother you.

You still didn't answer my questions. Why is healthcare tied to employment? Okay. I'll answer. So capitalist greedy grubbers like yourself can try to control people. Young people want health insurance, they want universal healthcare! Ask them! I'm not talking about your little employer/employee personal sweet story. I'm talking about the masses of young people out there. They've had it with the way this country is run.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 10 years ago

childish, offensive, and absolutely wrong in your approach to financing health insurance, and view of decent working class people.

You may have more money (although I don't believe one thing you've claimed) but you have lost your humanity if you value/measure yourself and others that way.

So obviously since you treat people so poorly I assume you are a liar as well.

[+] -4 points by PerfectCast5 (-7) 10 years ago

And how are they gonna pay medicare premiums? Medicare costs $13000 per retiree.

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 10 years ago

That is not the cost to the individuals on medicare.

Stop the dishonesty.

[-] -3 points by Builder (4202) 10 years ago

It (insurance) is a low priority here in Oz as well.

Food choice has a lot to do with advertising, image, and status, in my opinion.

My son would choose a "happy meal" and just eat the fries. The fact that he had a rather useless toy seemed to be the raison d'etre behind his choice.

As for the penchant for having an oversized sugar drink with every meal is again, just advertising at work. Any nutritionist could tell you that the practise negates any good eating choices. Even worse if the drink is sugar-free.

[+] -8 points by Margey (-33) 10 years ago

Maybe if the government wasn't printing trillions of dollars for welfare and subsidies everytime we turn around, things wouldn't cost so much. The problem isn't how much people get paid, it's how the dollar is being systematically devalued for the welfare state which is causing rampant inflation.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23760) 10 years ago

No. It's about how workers are being exploited through low wages while the wealthy and corporations run off with all the profits and even hide them overseas, removing them completely from our economy. It's about how the government fails to promote the general welfare of all Americans by failing to requiring employers to pay a fair wage and by failing to provide universal healthcare.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 10 years ago

It is absolutely about how much people are paid (not enough!) Welfare costs are miniscule not trillions.

And inflation is at historic lows.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 10 years ago

Federal spending as a percentage of GDP over the last 30 years has varied between 18% and 23%. The great increase in federal spending you claim is occurring is not supported by any facts.


[-] -3 points by Narley (272) 10 years ago

Interesting. Your story supports my belief that young people think they are invincible.

[-] -1 points by PerfectCast4 (-6) 10 years ago

Now this is the right answer.