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Forum Post: No CUTS to the safety net!!!! No AUSTERITY!!!!

Posted 7 years ago on Feb. 13, 2013, 11:07 a.m. EST by imagine40 (383)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

We oppose balancing the budget on the backs of the poor, sick, and old!

Join us in pressure all politicians who seek this unjust strategy.




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[-] 6 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 7 years ago

This austerity thing, it operates like fiscal cannibalism, and the fat cats are ready to feast some more.

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

We are the only ones standing between then and their meal.

Or are we the meal?

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

cuts to Legal aid, Headstart, childcare, housing & the right only squeal about White house tours, & airport delays.


Something is wrong with that picture.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Start here.

If you turn on or read the political news these days, everybody is talking about the budget. Why? Because budgets reflect priorities; they're the definitive version of putting your money where your mouth is...

This week, President Obama proposed his budget to Congress, which is 244 pages-- far too long to read, assuming you have a day job (which, at the current moment, too few have).

Nonetheless, OurTime.org is glad to brief you on the vital elements.

Read below and CLICK HERE to tell us what you think!

  1. Education—

    $1 billion for a new Race to the Top program for states to help colleges improve graduation rates without increasing tuition $300 million competitive-grant program to help prepare high school students for college/ job market, such as career and technical education training Preschool program for low- to moderate-income families paid for by new cigarette taxes Stops the doubling of student loan interest rates, but it also ties the rates to the market, which doesn’t provide students with protection from higher interest in the future

  2. Infrastructure—Invests $50 billion in job creation via highway, bridge, and airport projects this year

  3. Social Security—Changes the way benefits are adjusted for inflation by using a “chained consumer price index,” saving $230 billion over the next decade from our deficit

  4. Medicare—includes a means-tested increase in premiums so that wealthy seniors would pay more for their own health care, includes payment reductions to health-care providers in order to lower the prices of health care, saving $300 billion over the next decade

  5. Science—Invests $143 billion in research and development for clean energy, NASA, STEM education, cybersecurity, and weather and climate research this year

  6. Taxes—adds the “Buffet Rule” (higher taxes for households making over $1 million), limits tax deductions for top 2 percent, adjusts business tax codes to be more job creation friendly, saving $580 billion over the next decade

What do you think of the budget? Tell us on Facebook or Twitter, and be sure to LIKE our page so we can keep you on top of all the policy and news that we'll save you time by breaking down each week.



[-] -1 points by 99nproud (2697) 5 years ago

Stimulas, not Austerity!


"In fact, most of the world believes that Germany should adopt a more expansive fiscal policy. According to this view, austerity is counter-productive, because it induces slowdowns and recessions that make long-term fiscal consolidation more difficult."

Achtung baby!

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Here is the Assault on SS:






The Keating Five were five United States Senators accused of corruption in 1989, igniting a major political scandal as part of the larger Savings and Loan crisis of the late 1980s and early 1990s. The five senators – Alan Cranston (Democrat of California), Dennis DeConcini (Democrat of Arizona), John Glenn (Democrat of Ohio), John McCain (Republican of Arizona), and Donald W. Riegle, Jr. (Democrat of Michigan) – were accused of improperly intervening in 1987 on behalf of Charles H. Keating, Jr., Chairman of the Lincoln Savings and Loan Association, which was the target of a regulatory investigation by the Federal Home Loan Bank






On January 4, 1995, the new Chairman of the House Banking Committee, Representative James A. Leach (R-IA), introduced a bill to repeal Glass–Steagall Sections 20 and 32.[178] After being confirmed as Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin announced on February 28, 1995, that the Clinton Administration supported such Glass–Steagall repeal.[179] Repeating themes from the 1980s, Leach stated Glass–Steagall was “out of synch with reality”[180] and Rubin argued “it is now time for the laws to reflect changes in the world’s financial system.”[179]

1999 Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act


The financial sector in the U.S. has evolved a great deal in recent decades, during which there have been some regulatory changes and the creation of new financial products such as the securitization of loan obligations of various sorts and credit default swaps. Among the most important of the regulatory changes was the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act in 1999, which repealed the parts of the Glass–Steagall Act which had not already been repealed. This 1999 Act took down barriers to competition between traditional banks, investment banks, and insurance companies, in some cases allowing firms to participate in all three markets thus making distinctions between these categories less clear.[19]

Some believe that this deregulation contributed to the U.S. financial crisis of 2007-2009 and the Global financial crisis of 2008-2009.[20] However, others dispute this assertion, and a lively debate on the causes of financial crisis is still under way as of August, 2009.[21]


Related legislation
1976 - Hart-Scott-Rodino Antitrust Improvements Act PL 94-435
1977 - Emergency Natural Gas Act PL 95-2
1978 - Airline Deregulation Act PL 95-50
1978 - National Gas Policy Act PL 95-621
1980 - Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act PL 96-221
1980 - Motor Carrier Act PL 96-296
1980 - Regulatory Flexibility Act PL 96-354
1980 - Staggers Rail Act PL 96-448
1982 - Garn–St. Germain Depository Institutions Act PL 97-320
1982 - Bus Regulatory Reform Act PL 97-261
1989 - Natural Gas Wellhead Decontrol Act PL 101-60
1992 - National Energy Policy Act PL 102-486
1996 - Telecommunications Act PL 104-104
1999 - Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act PL 106-102

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

We should follow Bernies lead.


Please sign.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Tell politicians stop attacking Social Security.


Please sign

[+] -4 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

Or we could try simply voting them out. Seems a lot easier.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

So Libertarian austerity is doing exactly as the pols wanted it to do.


Squeeze the least among us.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Until we "vote 'em out" as you suggest. Let's hear what Richard Wolff has to say.


He's a smart progressive.

Whaddyathink? Can you join with Occupy for this approach?

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

We should definitely identify & vote 'em out in 2 years on the next election. Until then we must exercise a form of direct democrarcy and agitate for the change that benefits the 99%.

We must pressure any pol who would cut from the pgms that serve the middle/working class and insist on raising taxes on the corp 1% oligarchs.

The 1st pass (1st increase in the richs taxes in 20 years) was a paltry 4.6%. More increases on the plutocrats, no austerity on the workers.

[-] -3 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

I dont see any that are making a stand. Most are watching quietly. Thats not what leadership is about. 100% removal.

What are your views on the department of education?

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

No cuts to the Dept of education. More money for teacher salaries, more money for Pell grants, More oversight of states poor results. (especially in minority districts).

[-] -3 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

You realize the Dept of Education has nothing to do with salaries right?

You realize that most teachers hate all this centralized bullshit that comes out of the dept of education, right?

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Whatever you say boss. What do you think of dept of education?


[-] -2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

Thats not what I say. Thats what teachers say. Why dont you crawl out of your hole and go around and interview some of em. See what they think about teaching to tests.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

A lot of people object to US Dept of education because they help schools that serve low income children.


These people claim they just believe in small govt or balancing budgets but we are smart enough to know they want to "starve the beast" and cut specifically anything helping poor & minorities.

Is that you?

[-] -2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

So do you support teaching to the test or not?

Try to stick on point.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

I do not support teaching to the test. I already expressed a clear opinion about that.

And the point of this thread is no 'cuts, no austerity.' Certainly not cuts that hurt poor, minority children.

Is that what you want? "Starve the beast"? Balance the budget on the backs of the poor?

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

I know. it's horrible. "crawl out of your hole" ? Pickin a fight motherfucker?

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

Do you know? Because "whatever you say" is usually a blow off comment.


Do you know?

Do you know that the vast amount of teachers think teaching to the test is bullshit?

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

You are repeating yourself. I won't do the same.

Try again.

[-] -2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

So you do support it. Nice to know. Goes great with your dreams of a one world government as well.

Have a nice day.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Do not support teaching to test. Said 3rd time now. Haven't said anything about 'one world govt'

That's you blatantly lying because your position doesn't stand up to the truth.


Are you a 'cut the spending, balance the budget on the backs of the poor' tea partier? Is that why you haven't answered?

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Before we cut education lets chase down the millionaire tax cheats.


C'mon even you libertarians gotta support that.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago
[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Agreed, at election time. Support Bernies efforts. He knows best.



[-] -1 points by 99nproud (2697) 5 years ago

TURBO?!?! Shortsighted Cuts!


"Some cuts, however, not only damaged the economy, but also targeted sectors of the federal budget devoted to preventing wasteful spending or ensuring that the government collects revenues efficiently and fairly. In short, those spending cuts cannot even be described as penny-wise."

End austerity, Invest in the people, stop corp welfare

[+] -5 points by 99nproud (2697) 5 years ago

Repubs admit 'no jobs plan'


"Republicans, during this period, have consistently advocated the same jobs plan that Boehner laid out Tuesday. They opposed the stimulus, prompted the turn to austerity and criticized the Federal Reserve’s policies. All of the other policies Boehner suggests—reforming our regulatory, legal and education systems—are irrelevant to the demand problem facing the economy. In other words, Republicans have tried to make it harder for the government to fill the hole in demand and return the economy to full employment."

Retire ALL pols against stimulas/job creation.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Fight austerics, No chained CPI!!


FYI & bump to remind us

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

This is how to cut Defense

Here are three easy ways to save $163 billion by cutting the Pentagon budget:

  1. End the war in Afghanistan. A rough estimate of the cost of deploying U.S. troops to Afghanistan is a billion dollars per thousand troops per year. If we withdraw 16,300 troops from Afghanistan and keep them out, that would save $163 billion over ten years.

  2. Cut the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. A recent estimate of the long-term cost of purchasing, operating and maintaining 2,457 F-35s is $1.5 trillion. [1] That's $610 million per plane. If we cut 267 planes - a little over 10% - that would save $163 billion.

  3. Cut Pentagon contracting. Every year the Pentagon spends more than $360 billion purchasing goods and services from contractors. Service contractors can cost, on average, 2.94 times more than an average Pentagon civilian employee performing the same job. A crude estimate suggests that just by cutting Pentagon contracting by 7% and bringing the work in house, the Pentagon could save $163 billion over ten years. [2]

Cutting the Pentagon budget instead of Social Security and veterans' benefits isn't a wild idea - it's exactly what will happen if there there is no "grand bargain" budget deal. All we have to do to make sure the Pentagon budget is cut is prevent a deal that cuts Social Security and veterans' benefits.

Urge your representatives in Congress and President Obama to cut the Pentagon budget instead of cutting Social Security and veterans' benefits.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

True. BusinessIntellegence.com did a similar story. The cuts should go deeper... we are like at $650 Billion a year for Defense. It should go back to $400 Billion a year. We were at $300 Billion during Bill Clinton.

We have a weird situation where military people are getting really high wages as contractors ... when if they want to be in emergency services and in the military they would maybe get $80 - $100 K a year including benefits. Actually DOD Wages have also risen sharply. Not sure maybe other parts of the federal government have had big wage increases since 2001. But there are always people with big government wages in D.C and working as one of the many, many executive or upper level management positions. Actually we have too many leaders too. We should cut leadership positions, so that we have fewer people to blame and hold responsible. To me it should look like turning back time to the Clinton Days... including getting rid of DHS.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

& this is the wrong way to cut.


Save the White House tours, end flight delays, but fuck the poor?

Andafter whining about no Senate budget, Now corrupt pols House pols refuse to appoint standard budget negotiators.


Just so ya know

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Agree. Seems like TPTB have a plan to Cut Social Programs and they have a strategy that includes Austerity through the Sequesrations.

President Obama has become a Tool. Actions are the thing to Focus on not words. As your links show the GOP is laid bare. The Rich Interests, Wealthy Oligarchs, that go after stealing our money through con games, deceptive practices, Fraud, Insider Trading, and Lobbying.... are Obviously at work here.

People are Stealing Money on Wall Street & Washington DC as Fast as they Can.

  • US Capital Flight to Off Shore Production has decimated the US Job Market & Economy.

  • GDP Measurements Deceptively hide the loss of Production, Manufacturing, US Value, US Skills, US Intelligence, and the US Future.

  • Sequestration is Austerity and Recession is on the Way.

  • Notice that in Washington DC they can't stop spending on Drones, War, CIA, Weapons, Foreign bases, money to Foreign nations to influence their politics and Banking System, ... TSA & DHS spend what they want ... D.C. Airports operate without delays ... Banks still Get TARP, Subsidies, Tax Breaks, Low Interest Loans from the Federal Reserve, Protection from Prosecution on LIBOR, ISDAfix, Derivatives, Off balance Sheet transactions, & All Fraud. ... Our borders are wide open, but they want to militarize our Cities and enforce taking away rights from people with huge, expensive paramilitary Forces....

There are clearly 2 Classes of People. They pretend there is no such thing as Anti-Trust law and Class Action Law Suits. But we know the Rich have Armed Guards, Limos, Airplanes, and can do whatever they want no matter how many people get hurt.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Pretty bad situation we're in.

What to do?

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Educate, Regurgitate, Emasculate, and Stimulate.

Stimulate discussion through Education & Regurgitation. Emasculate Congress through proving they focus on the wrong problems and their Actions don't solve any of the Nations big problems with Jobs, Wages, Retirement, Energy, Banking, & Corruption.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Yesterday the Senate passed something to alleviate airport delays.

"wrong problem", & definitely unrelated to the "nations big problems"


[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

National Poll on the kinds of Jobs people want. Then couldn't we have a Federal Budget that worked toward what the people want. Wouldn't that be True Representation in Washington DC instead of Foreign Wars and Occupations.

Yes, it should be obvious that the Big Money Lobby wants Austerity, Wants to Terminate Social Security, Unemployment insurance, and Medicare....

Actions speak loudly here.

They don't even measure the "Real Economy with GDP. All of the Financial GDP from Wall Street is just taking money from consumers, municipalities, and States... Not to mention Pensions & Retirement Plans.

They don't even measure the Loss of Wealth in this Country.

They don't even measure the loss of Pensions which is now 84,000 Pension Plans that have been canceled.

They don't even Talk about the GINI Coefficient and what it means.

They don't talk about the people in Service Jobs without any Benefits and who have to work part time even though they would like a 9-5 Job with Benefits. (This really should be blown wide open, they should do a National Poll on the kinds of Jobs people want. Then couldn't we have a Federal Budget that worked toward what the people want. Wouldn't that be True Representation in Washington DC instead of Foreign Wars and Occupations.)

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Sounds like a plan.

You got me sold.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Or States Initiatives I suppose.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

States should have great say in what projects/how $ spent, but the feds need to serve the people and bankroll, loan, gaurantee, or grant new job investment.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Agree. I know there is some semantics that gets Tea PArty and GOP people up set. The fact is that in Recession and Off Shoring of Manufacturing Wall Street Investment Banks don't Invest in Small Businesses (the Core of America).

Federal Domestic Policy & Federal Banking Policy should Address Jobs, Wages, and Benefits with an Eye on unemployment insurance, social security programs, Food Stamp Growth, Temporary Assistance Programs, and Retirement & Pension plans (or loss there of).

The US Treasury is a total Slug. My Vision of the Treasury is that it can directly supply money & loans to people that need education assistance and business loans. Why pay high Interest to Bankers????

Many, Many things can be done to create an environment for Jobs. Like Direct Loans from the Treasury, Regional Banks, Local Banks, the Bank of North Dakota....

4-5 Years of Low Interest Rates from 2008.... on top of low interest rates in 1999 & 2001. This is Proof of failure in Economic Policy. Savers need to learn to save. Savers need Interest Rates for CDs & Safe Investments.

And really ... DHS & The Military Jobs created after 9-11 are a stimulus. So what is wrong with Federal Government Jobs programs to put in Sidewalks, Bike Paths, Safe walking along our roads, National Parks, Bridges, Road Work, Infrastructure, Alternative Energy....

Oh, but Congressmen spend all their time with Lobbyist not working on Policy.

We need to get Milton Freidman Out of the Federal Government (Plug for Shock Doctrine)

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

The fight to take back the peoples govt has begun, & must be escalated.

Current leaders are either bought off, or spineless. (most)

Years of hard work is necessary to replace them and succeed.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Congress fixed the airport delays. And in 1 day!

They serve the elites & themselves. Not the 99%

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Well we are not part of their coffee Klatch.

When they are in Washington, they lunch with the Lobby and Dine with the Billionaires.

The rest of us would be connecting trains, buses, and Metro Transpo wondering why it is $5 buck to get from Silverspring to Down to the Smithsonian on the Mall.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Definitely end the contractors just a scheme to funnel govt largess to red state military gung ho constituents. Maybe even raise wages a bit for the enlisted grunts.

But I agree with the $3-400Mil target, my comment above should be seen more as a 1st step.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

End the sequester. ALan Grayson knows better



[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

fight for the progressive budget even though house repubs will kill it anyway.


[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

I'm not sure I ever saw this, thanx.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

One guy says he know this group and says he tried to work with this group:

this group is actually part of the problem;
last I looked it was run by a Harvard lawyer who thinks saving social security requires both paying her 6figure salary PLUS raising FICA taxes on all salaried Americans;

exchanged several letters with Nancy Altman several years back, when she headed this group; she was hopeless

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

I'd be interested in seeing some evidence. In any event we do all support no cuts to Social Security, so maybe they've straightened up since your exposure years ago.

They certainly seem to on the right side of the issue. No?

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Seemed okay to me as written. I think most of us agree we don't want any cuts to the Social Safety Net. Getting the Rich to pay their share of FICA will solve the revenue problems.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

The wealthy need to pay their fair share of Fica, & cap gains, and income tax, and offshore sheltered wealth and more

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

MSM ignores the progressive movement.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

You have passed me to budget platforms to look at. Both are well written and have points I need to look into to make sure I understand. Maybe the Article above called the budget that is doomed is more of an article ... but I call it a platform.

You also sent a link to Congressional Progressive Party budget http://grijalva.house.gov/uploads/Executive%20Summary%20FINAL.pdf This I also think is a Budget Platform. Good stuff. I should know more about Individual taxes and other things, but have to look into it.

I have some idea of what a real federal budget looks like and have some idea of the process involved. Just want to point out that people like Ryan and others put forth Budget proposals or Budget Platforms ... but they are not budgets. They don't look at budgets and they don't look at the dollars on budget lines ... and they don't seem to let you know what the final budget lines will look like.

I can learn plenty from your two links on Budget Ideas, but in the end it is only part of the information that is needed to really work a budget... or vote on a budget ... or vote for a candidate.

Everyday we see this trend in the US of dumbing down the public, the voters, the media, ... we know less about the USA and where our Dollars go every month & year. We live in an Idiocracy. We know nothing of a nation at war or a nation that has been attacked in broad terms, our futures and dreams uncertain. We wage war, abuse our Veterans, make out people unlogical, prevent the eduation in Logic, prevent K-12 from knowing the true nature of the USA & abusive US Power and Politicians.

The AMT Tax, Alternative Minimum Tax is going to hit families with more than 2 kids in the coming years. The AMT should be abolished. AMT was intended to make rich people pay taxes. Why doesn't the Congressional Progressive party know this?

And personally if people are making money from Investments, tax that money at 15%-20% until their total Income exceeds $40K a year. You can use ceilings and Minimum/Maximums to help people in low income levels ... we already agree on this in previous post.

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

This seems like the right approach.



[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

I believe AMT was dealt with last year. However I agree it must apply only to the wealthy.

I am aware that the budget proposals are not actual budgets, unfortunately that is how we do it. In any event we are able to compare the priorities of each, and I am saying that only the progressive caucus budget proposal comes close to benefitting the 99%.

Thanks for you response.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Very thorough. I propose removing the capon payroll contributions so that the wealthy pay more to SS, Also add small tax on all passive income (over $100K), like cap gains, carried interest, rental, royalties, etc. and add that to Ss"trust fund".

With this I expect that we can reduce the payroll tax for people who make less than $50k. And even lower the retirementage.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Yes, that is all it takes.

I also like the use of minimums or maximums on certain kinds of taxes... like if someone is retired or doesn't work and has some investments ... like divididends or home rental income or capital gains ... if the total income for such a person is like $50K a year then ... let then write off the interest they pay on their 2-3 houses, and let their capital gains tax be 15-20% or 22% whatever we thinks is a low rate.

I mean if a low income person is supporting themselves don't tax them in a way that discourages financial independence ... really for anyone making less that $121K you should encourage them to have business investments in house rental, property, savings accounts that draw interest, CDs, Bonds, ... whatever.

Looking at the list of Deregulation ... I'm feeling kind of dumb. It is a long list. I guess I have to dig into it a little more. I'd like to look at Tax loopholes more too. Common people use tax credits or tax write offs that I don't get ... but these credits encourage home ownership, retirement planning, medical insurance, paying medical bills, charity donations, .... those seem to make sense. But the tax Credits for corporations and the wealthy, and Trust owners go way over the top.

But people with high income should pay into SS & Medicare just like everyone as a kind of citizenship or patriotism.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Action Alert: tax Wall st speculators!!


Please sign petition.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago


[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago


[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

i can live with the concepts you list. Anyone making hundreds of thousands of bucks in any way should pay taxes.

But people who make less than $50k should be keeping most of their money.

[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Don't support Dem Budget!!

Good budget comparison.


But remember the Progressive budget is better than even the Dems

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Okay, seems like the Green party and other thrid parties were more progressive than the Dems. All Thrid Parties were looking better than the Dems....

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

3rd parties look better than repubs too?

What about libertarian party do they look better than Dems.?

Let's stop these cuts


We need your help.

[-] 0 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

I don't think they were on the Ballet in my state, but the Liberatrians seemed to share good points with the Justice Party and Green party. I just question the Austerity that Libertarians seem set on.

Libertarians seem weak on Economics and Social Safety Nets. I sort of assumed that if Ron Paul got elected he could not get much of his cuts through congress and might be a kind of Jimmy Carter who didn't get along with Congress and wouldn't get much accomplished. Might be wrong about that since the "Third Way" is out there trying to cut SS and Medicare.

But not sure the Libertarians know Economics. They might be Chicago School of Economics which is really Neoliberal Deregulation of Banks and Privatization of Government Functions and Assets. I don't believe in the Chicago School, they are the problem.

Republicans live in a dream world of some kind. Trillion Dollar wars are nothing to them. A million Dead in Iraq is nothing to them. They probably are evil.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Isn't Ron Paul that old racist who had to apologize for his past racist newsletter?

I saw his Son (the libertarian) saying he did not support the civil rights amendments.

That's not good.

How exactly do you think the Libertarians are like the Green party?

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

The John Birch Society is an American political advocacy group that supports anti-communism, limited government, a constitutional republic[1][2] and personal freedom.[3][4][5] It has been described as radical right-wing.[6][7]

Founder Robert W. Welch Jr. (1899–1985) developed an elaborate organizational infrastructure in 1958 that enabled him to keep a very tight rein on the chapters.[8] Its main activity in the 1960s, says Rick Perlstein, comprised monthly meetings to watch a video by Welch, followed by writing postcards or letters to government officials linking specific policies to the Communist menace.[9] After an early rise in membership and influence, efforts by people like conservative William F. Buckley, Jr. and the National Review led the JBS to be identified as a fringe element of the conservative movement.[10][11]

Originally based in Belmont, Massachusetts, it is now headquartered in Grand Chute, Wisconsin,[12] with local chapters in all 50 states. The organization owns American Opinion Publishing, which publishes the journal The New American.[13]


Welch wrote in a widely circulated statement, The Politician, "Could Eisenhower really be simply a smart politician, entirely without principles and hungry for glory, who is only the tool of the Communists? The answer is yes." He went on. "With regard to ... Eisenhower, it is difficult to avoid raising the question of deliberate treason."[49]

In the late 1960s Welch insisted that the Johnson administration's fight against communism in Vietnam was part of a communist plot aimed at taking over the United States. Welch demanded that the United States get out of Vietnam, thus aligning the Society with the left.[37] The society opposed water fluoridation, which it called "mass medicine"[38] and saw as a communist plot to poison Americans.[39]

Former Eisenhower cabinet member Ezra Taft Benson — a leading Mormon — spoke in favor of the John Birch Society, but in January 1963 the LDS church issued a statement distancing itself from the Society.[42] Antisemitic, racist, anti-Mormon, anti-Masonic, and various religious groups criticized the group's acceptance of Jews, non-whites, Masons, and Mormons. These opponents accused Welch of harboring feminist, ecumenical, and evolutionary ideas.[43][44][45] Welch rejected these accusations by his detractors: "All we are interested in here is opposing the advance of the Communists, and eventually destroying the whole Communist conspiracy, so that Jews and Christians alike, and Mohammedans and Buddhists, can again have a decent world in which to live."[46]

The society was at the center of an important free-speech law case in the 1970s, after American Opinion accused a Chicago lawyer representing the family of a young man killed by a police officer of being part of a Communist conspiracy to merge all police agencies in the country into one large force.

Key society causes of the 1970s included opposition to both the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) and to the establishment of diplomatic ties with the People's Republic of China. The society claimed in 1973 that the regime of Mao Zedong had murdered 64 million Chinese as of that year and that it was the primary supplier of illicit heroin into the United States.

By the time of Welch's death in 1985, the society's membership and influence had dramatically declined, but the UN's role in the Gulf War and President George H.W. Bush's call for a 'New World Order' appeared to many society members to validate their claims about a "One World Government" conspiracy.

The Society has been active in supporting the auditing of, and aims to eventually dismantle, the Federal Reserve System.[56]

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

The Koch connection is left off.


This is why I hate wiki for this kind of info. Lack of accuracy.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Repeal the entire sequester. (not just the bit that delays the elites flights)



[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

Considering the reasoning behind has been proven disastrously wrong, you would think a repeal would be well under way by now.


Instead they are building denial of the truth.

This can only be deliberate.

The do nothing congress must go.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Airport delays take priority over a million meals on wheels & 70K headstart denials.

disgusting, outrageous.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago


[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

The Austerics must be identified, ridiculed, denounced, humiliated and shamed into submission so they do not emerge for another20 years. (100 would be better)

I'm ranting.

(But they must be stoped)

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

Like Santa Claus, they are everywhere, including your State.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

LOL. the oligarch Austerics have taken our govt.

The fight for control has begun.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 7 years ago

Making all the world a cesspool.


[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Thanks, I was sort of thinking there might be a link to Texas. Reading your link has me wondering maybe Ron Paul really did write that Racist Pamphlet he has denied being a part of. What do you think of this Ron Paul possible link to JBS?

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

"pamphlet"? Singular? It was many racist newsletters with Ron Pauls name on them. That is why he had to apologize.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

Of course he wrote and was fully aware of those letters.

Other ties can be found, but RP officially endorsed JBS in '08'.


[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Yes, those Texans know how to get attention ... endorsing JBS probably got some big air time in 2008.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Wow, you cut and paste really well. What is the point of posting so much on the racist Birchers?

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

It helps me to learn the stuff. I guess it is a way for me to take notes, but it forces me to read and then I remember better.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

UPD: Sanders delivers SS petition today at 12:30. Watch live.


[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

This is Austerity. Great Video Event. Great participation. Hope to find more videos of this event and see more news stories. I didn't see any coverage in a quick web search.

Chained CPI changes to cut Social Security and Cut Veteran Benefits ... and cut Disability ... This is a Direct Attack on the Middle Class by .... people who live in Palaces.

This is Proof of Politicians Attack on the Health and Well Being of all Americans. This is Austerity. It is here.

Great Job by Bernie Sanders ... and so many great Speakers and supports. I'm glad you sent out this link and thanks.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

We must agitate ALL pols on this critical mistake. Raise taxes on the wealthy, cut defense, & corp welfare.Taking money from the poor, sick, & elderly is immoral.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Cool. I guess in regards to this post we should note JBS would impose austerity and tank the economy.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

That makes sense. You know JBS sounds like Alex jones. I saw a connection, but had no idea the platform is really Alex jones' show.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

More right wing extremism. I'm not much interested in that side of the spectrum, other than to see them lose power, since it is their policies over the last 30 years that have screwed things up and hurt the middle class so much.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

They are anti war, anti foreign war, anti foreign policy that puts us all over the world like an Empire.... they are for Individual and Civil Rights as codified in the Constitution...

There are some weird conflicts that Libertarians have with some voter laws that might have come from the Southern States, Jim Crow Laws, ... the Laws curtail some rights, but the effect of the law was to franchise black voters back into US Politics or state politics.

The other weird thing you might be thinking about is ...John Birch Society members seem to be alive and well and probably in Libertarian party.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

No doubt about the racist Birchers being libertarian, "curtail some rights"? Sounds so innocuous and matter off act. I assure you the Greens don't agree with Libertarians on that or much at all.

Most of all Libertarians do not support govt investment in Alt energy (or anything else for that matter).

Now progressive parties agree on the anti war stand of the Green party, and also agree on racial equality, & investing in alternative energy.

Are you familiar with those 3rd parties, or just the Libertarians, & justice party.?

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

I voted Green party this year for President.

You probably are right about the Libertarians not supporting investment in Alt Energy. They probably oppose any new programs at all now that I think about it. It is in their nature to cut programs and never suggest new programs... It is possible that we would have riots within a year and civil war within 2 years if Libertarians took control of the Senate and House..... I'm sure people get upset when they lose food stamps, disability assistance, Temp assistance for the Needy, housing assistance, medical assistance, home heating tax credits, deductions for their dependence, etc.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

You mentioned many pgms for the poor & child deductions, but the more broad pain would be Libertarian destruction of Social Security/Medicare which are pgms for middle class people that have contributed and earned them.

They ain't taken over congress, and there ain't gonna be riots, & civil war.

Don't worry.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

I guess John Birch Society would fit well with the Tea party and Libertarians. But tea party types seem naïve to me and may not like JBS.

The link for Wikipedia is really comprehensive. Like you said, they didn't like the 1964 Civil Rights act...

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

I think TP loves JBS but I suppose it doesn't matter, neither support Occupy, or the progressive change we seek to benefit the 99%

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Too bad 3rd parties are frozen out of power.

[-] 2 points by agkaiser (2450) from Fredericksburg, TX 5 years ago

Render Unto Caesar

Should we render unto Caesar, what Caesar, in the fullness of hubris, demands of us or should we meet out justice to Caesar according to our common sense about what we need to survive?

Must we honor our debts to Caesar even if we must die to do so?

The elite class of parasites [Caesar] have outsourced our livelihoods, made us dependent on foreign producers and driven us into debt to them to get what we need to live instead of allowing us to work in our own country to produce our sustenance.

Will we be good capitalists until the day we die of debt and starvation or will we string up the billionaires and bankers and the politicians they own by the heels to draw and quarter them?

[-] 2 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 7 years ago

Debtors' Prison: The Politics of Austerity Versus Possibility

Buy: April 29, 2013 | Robert Kuttner

One of our foremost economic thinkers challenges a cherished tenet of today’s financial orthodoxy: that spending less, refusing to forgive debt, and shrinking government—“austerity”—is the solution to a persisting economic crisis like ours or Europe’s, now in its fifth year.

Since the collapse of September 2008, the conversation about economic recovery has centered on the question of debt: whether we have too much of it, whose debt to forgive, and how to cut the deficit. These questions dominated the sound bites of the 2012 U.S. presidential election, the fiscal-cliff debates, and the perverse policies of the European Union.

Robert Kuttner makes the most powerful argument to date that these are the wrong questions and that austerity is the wrong answer. Blending economics with historical contrasts of effective debt relief and punitive debt enforcement, he makes clear that universal belt-tightening, as a prescription for recession, defies economic logic. And while the public debt gets most of the attention, it is private debts that crashed the economy and are sandbagging the recovery—mortgages, student loans, consumer borrowing to make up for lagging wages, speculative shortfalls incurred by banks. As Kuttner observes, corporations get to use bankruptcy to walk away from debts. Homeowners and small nations don’t. Thus, we need more public borrowing and investment to revive a depressed economy, and more forgiveness and reform of the overhang of past debts.

In making his case, Kuttner uncovers the double standards in the politics of debt, from Robinson Crusoeauthor Daniel Defoe’s campaign for debt forgiveness in the seventeenth century to the two world wars and Bretton Woods. Just as debtors’ prisons once prevented individuals from surmounting their debts and resuming productive life, austerity measures shackle, rather than restore, economic growth—as the weight of past debt crushes the economy’s future potential. Above all, Kuttner shows how austerity serves only the interest of creditors—the very bankers and financial elites whose actions precipitated the collapse. Lucid, authoritative, provocative—a book that will shape the economic conversation and the search for new solutions.
Praise for Debtors' Prison “Kuttner (The Squandering of America), cofounder and co-editor of the American Prospect, pulls no punches in his latest full-throated defense of Keynesian economics and repudiation of the modern neoliberal system . . . Kuttner’s deft overview of economic history—most notably his coverage of the Marshall Plan—demonstrates that economic stimulus can be very effective at ending recessions.”

—Publishers Weekly

"A highly readable, thought provoking analysis of America's—and the world's—situation, a unique blend of history, economics, and politics that shows a clear way out of our morass, if only our politics would 'allow us to get from here to there.' Kuttner explains why we don't have to be doomed to a generation of depression, but that current debt, finance, and austerity policies make that a likely prospect. Even those who disagree with his conclusions will find his wealth of historical insights invaluable."

—Joseph Stiglitz, winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics and author of The Price of Inequality

“Robert Kuttner has a gift for clear and forceful explanations of the complex dealings that brought the economy to its knees. Debtors’ Prison takes an innovative approach to economic history, using the lens of credit and debt to explore past boom-and-bust cycles and to illuminate the central issues in current economic debates. Kuttner’s impressive history also catapults the reader into the future, providing critical insight on strengthening the financial system. A must-read for anyone interested our economic future.”

—Senator Elizabeth Warren

“Debtors’ Prison is more than a devastating brief against the trans-Atlantic pursuit of austerity. It is a magisterial retelling of our history through the prism of the struggle over credit and debt. Navigating between countries and eras with the authority of a scholar and the narrative skill of a journalist, Robert Kuttner has written the authoritative guide to economic recovery and financial reform.”

—Jacob S. Hacker, co-Author of Winner-Take-All Politics: How Washington Made the Rich Richer—And Turned Its Back on the Middle Class

“Robert Kuttner nails the missing piece in Barack Obama’s presidency—the reason the American economy is still stalled and sickly. Read this book, then send it to the White House. Kuttner has the plan. The president needs to see it."

—William Greider, author of Come Home, America

“No topics in modern political life have spawned more confusion, misdirected effort, and overall malarkey than ‘deficits’ and ‘debt.’ Robert Kuttner does us the enormous service of explaining which kinds of debt we should worry more about, and which kinds less—and how to manage public and private debt so as to sustain an age of broadly shared prosperity rather than of austere decline.”

—James Fallows, author of China Airborne

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 7 years ago


[-] 2 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 7 years ago

Involvement, organization and wielding of our power.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 7 years ago

Impeachment. I don't need a lobbyist.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 7 years ago

Then what, Tank Girl?

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 7 years ago

You dumb fucking idiot. I am not interested in your games.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 7 years ago

Just for clarity sake, what "games" would that be? You poor confused hysterical thing. Go ahead and let the whole world know all about the "games" you have busted the hell out of me playing. Do it, let 'em know all about the "games!" Impeach my "games" all over this board!!

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 7 years ago

Your begging is almost perfect, not quite, but almost.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 7 years ago

Impeach the "games"

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Progressives who haven't signed the commitment to not cut SS Medicare



[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

We need investments in job creating activities, not austerity that hurts the working/middle class.


[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago


[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

We've had austerity for the last 40 years but still don't realize it!


[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

This hoarding of cash by corps & rich 1%'rs is thereason we have budget problems.


Tax the rich, invest in job creation/economic growth.


[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

Certainly spending/investing in job creating activity WILL increase economic growth. And cutting taxes for the working/middle class will also increase economic growth.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

Economic growth has been fairly consistent over the last 40 years, but the increase has all went to the top 10%. The symptoms are low wages and high prices. The cause is that the majority of people don't know the dollars true value or their own, so they will continue to lose in the exchange of their labor for goods and services.

[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago
  • Raise wages,

  • cap exec salaries (end the obscenity of execs making 400% morethan their workers.

  • create progressive tax systen, cut working class, increase wealthy.

  • reward insourcing, punish outsourcing.

  • invest in greentech jobs, infrastructure jobs. manufacturing jobs.

That should improve the problem.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

What we need is knowledge. Without it we will continue being taken advantage of. If the people really understood what was going on both politically and economically in this country there would be a revolution.

[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

Revolution would be violent and bloody. Can we increase knowledge but avoid the death and destruction?

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

I meant a peaceful but forceful revolution where people would stand up, speak out and take action.

[-] 3 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

Aaaaah you left that out. I think we are in the midst of that. It is growing and will bring about economic equity/justice.

[-] -3 points by whaddyathink (-89) from Millville, NJ 7 years ago

Not if you're simply printing the money out of thin air or borrowing it from China. It's like a snake eating its tail.

There's not enough money in the world for the kind of "investing" you want.

[-] 3 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

Sure there is. We got enough for the banksters, and corp welfare, and oil co subsidies, but not enough to invest in growing the economy?

That's ridiculous.

[-] -2 points by whaddyathink (-89) from Millville, NJ 7 years ago

No, your premise is ridiculous. We don't have enough for ANY of that.

[-] 3 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

We do to. Just cut the bloated wasteful def budget.

[-] -1 points by whaddyathink (-89) from Millville, NJ 7 years ago

Try a class in basic math. It'll do wonders for you.

[-] 3 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

Stop pushing the decades old, libe(R)tarian, "starve the beast" strategy of blowing up the deficit/debt (by repub admins) then falsely claiming "oh well gotta cut pgms that help the poor, old, & sick, can't help it, sorry".

I don't buy that bullshit!!!

We got money to extend $70B in corp tax benefits in the fiscal cliff deal but the elderly will have eat cat food?

Wheres you fuckin soul?. You greedy, selfish fuck!!!!!

[-] -1 points by whaddyathink (-89) from Millville, NJ 7 years ago

Where's yer fuckin money asshole? Get off the internet and start EARNING a paycheck.

The elderly are in Harrahs throwing dollars into the slot machine while sucking on an oxygen tank, paid for by medicare.

You're a fuckin genius! On the one hand, you argue for no austerity - more gubment spending. On the other hand, you whine about corp benefits. WTF do you think social security and medicare are, huh? Subsidies to the providers of medicare, the companies that feed people for food stamps and the companies that benefit on everything the over 65 spend money on. Just STFU, you idiot. You don't even know WTF you're protesting against and what you support anymore. They're one in the same jackass.

[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

I disagree. And we just cut $760B from those medicare providers, and have a new plan to cut more money from big pharma costs.

So have heart our protests are slowly having an affect.

[-] 0 points by whaddyathink (-89) from Millville, NJ 7 years ago

Of course you disagree. You're unemployed and don't have a pot to piss in.

N E X T !

[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

You don't know what you're talkin about.

[-] -3 points by whaddyathink (-89) from Millville, NJ 7 years ago

OP-ED! It's a GD opinion and it isn't based in any fact, asshat. Wake the fook up!

The "financial transaction tax" would send more business to Singapore and Hong Kong than already is being sent offshore.

"So to summarize: Tax the banksters and speculators with 1 percent on all stocks and bond trades, 0.1 percent on all derivatives trades and 1 percent on all foreign exchange trades - and thereby raise $1 trillion in new revenue per year." That would mean the stocks and bonds worth is close to 100 Trillion. Where? In what U.S. capital market? What money are you talking about? It doesn't exist, shithead. The combined GDP is only about 14 trillion. WTF are you talking about?

How the hell do you hold down a job with such stupidity? Oh wait, YOU DON'T.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

You just don't want to tax the rich. No business will be lost. That's bullshit the plutocrats spew for ignorant fearful people like you to digest.

Tax the lazy, do nothing, greedy, selfish rich already!!!

[+] -4 points by whaddyathink (-89) from Millville, NJ 7 years ago

The lazy ARE those that ask others to pay taxes.

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

No the lazy are those who sit behind a desk, create nothing, make money through trading, CDS, using fraudulent ratings, fail to invest in job creating enterprise in America, abuse the tax system & pay little to nothing, and hoard their profits, all while stagnating our wages, outsourcing our jobs, cutting our benefits, stealing our pensions, taking our tax dollars for bailouts.

[+] -4 points by whaddyathink (-89) from Millville, NJ 7 years ago

Pay little to nothing? That would be YOU.

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

No need to get personal. I guess your substantial lucid arguments are spent?

Give up already?

That was too easy.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

You must mean the entire state of Mississippi.


[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

OIC....You're spamming this shit.

Are you a professional spammer or an amateur?

If you're really in Mississippi, can we have all of our tax money back?

[-] -1 points by whaddyathink (-89) from Millville, NJ 7 years ago

Nope. California, Illinois and New York are the worst. They're already hinting at asking the federal gubment to bail them out for the mess they've created.

So, you changed from repubsRtheprob to Shooz. You can't just post under one name?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 7 years ago

Not really.

Mississippi has NEVER paid in and anywhere near as much as it's gotten back. Ever.

It IS a welfare State.

[-] 0 points by whaddyathink (-89) from Millville, NJ 7 years ago

Moron Alert^^^ Anudder OP-ED with no facts.

Clapping seals!

[-] 0 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Facts are there, tax the rich, cut taxes on the working class, expand earned benefits.

[-] -3 points by whaddyathink (-89) from Millville, NJ 7 years ago

Fuck that. Kick people off the welfare rolls. Earn your way or die. I owe you nothing.

We're more progressive than just about any other country in the world and it isn't working well as evidenced by our current situation.

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Our current situation is a direct result of the lazy, do nothing wealthy who take subsidies, use tax loopholes, shelters, corp welfare, taxpayer bailouts, while outsourcing, cutting benefits, stealing pensions, stagnating our wages, & busting our unions.

The insignificant costs of welfare pales in comparison to the tax payer money going to the real takers, the selfish, greedy 1%'rs..

[-] -1 points by whaddyathink (-89) from Millville, NJ 7 years ago

Nope, our current situation is a result of gubment growing bigger and bigger beyond control and creating nothing but paper, policy and bureaucracy. Gubment is a leach on society at this point. It does nothing it's chartered to do and does everything it should keep it's nose out of.

It's time to radically cut it and for it to only do what is stated in the constitution. This was tried in Russia, Cuba, the Iron Curtain countries, and it always falls apart. 70% of the taxes are welfare and entitlements. That's has to stop and will stop, either by common sense or by collapse.

“The budget should be balanced, the treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.” -- Cicero , 55 B.C.

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Americans are the hardest workers on the entire planet.

We've cut more in recent years than any recent govt,

The problem is that wealthy continue getting away with not paying their fair share.

But I support cutting the defense budget in half,

cutting corp welfare,

cutting tax loopholes, shelters, for the wealthy.

cutting taxes for the working class.

You support those cuts, Mr Cutty Mccutinstuff?

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

This WILL resolve the deficit/debt problem, prevent the need to balance the budget on the backs of the poor/sick/elderly.


Transaction TAX!!!!!! I say be bolder make it 10% not 3%

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

We prefer cuts to defense budget, not from earned benefits.


[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

No cuts to the pgms that serve the 99% Goddam it! tax the rich end their loopholes.


[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 7 years ago

Austerity has many benefits:

Just ask Spain and France

More than 6 million without jobs in Mariano Rajoy's Spain while figure in François Hollande's France is 3.2 million

Phillip Inman and Giles Tremlett in Madrid
The Guardian, Thursday 25 April 2013 14.55 EDT

Unemployment in Spain raises to 27 percent in the first quarter People queue at an employment office in Madrid. Photograph: Ballesteros/EPA

Unemployment has soared to records in both France and Spain as the impact of government spending cuts and a collapse in consumer confidence forced employers to shed thousands of workers.

Spain's persistent rise in unemployment reached new heights over the first three month of this year, leaving a record 27% of the workforce jobless.

Spain now has 6.2 million unemployed after a 23-month run of falling employment figures, with the young and those living in the south of the country particularly hard hit as the economy continues to shrink.

Almost six out of every 10 people under the age of 25 who are not studying are now jobless, with the rate at 57%.

In France, the number of people out of work reached a record 3.2 million in March in a blow to socialist president François Hollande, who has struggled to stabilise the economy in the face of declining exports and a fall in domestic demand.

The figures triggered a heated debate about Europe's austerity drive with leading IMF and European Central Bank officials sharply at odds.

Some eurozone officials believe now is the time to ease back on debt-cutting drives because calmer financial markets are less easily panicked.

The IMF is also calling for a relaxation in austerity drives – for both the eurozone and Britain – but Germany and the ECB are opposed.

"There is … a risk that Europe could fall into stagnation, which would have very serious implications for households, companies [and] banks," IMF first deputy managing director David Lipton told a conference in London.

"To decisively avoid that dangerous downside, policymakers must act now to strengthen the prospects for growth," he said.

But ECB executive board member Jörg Asmussen urged governments to push on with budget consolidation and reforms.

"Delaying fiscal consolidation is not an easy way out. If it were, we would have taken it," Asmussen said.

"Delaying fiscal consolidation is no free lunch. It means higher debt levels. And this has real costs in the euro area where public debts are already very high."

The ECB is expected by many to cut interest rates next week, although a quarter-point reduction is unlikely to lift the eurozone economy out of recession.

"It will probably require additional unconventional measures from the ECB," Lipton said, while Asmussen said monetary policy was not an "all-purpose weapon".

But German chancellor Angela Merkel intervened in the debate yesterday saying the ECB was "in a difficult position,"

"For Germany it would actually have to raise rates slightly at the moment, but for other countries it would have to do even more for more liquidity to be made available."

Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy plans to announce measures on Friday designed to promote growth while keeping public spending cuts in place.

The economy shrank 1.9% over the last year and is not expected to return to growth until the end of this year or 2014.

Analysts agree new jobs will not be created until growth rises above 1%, which seems unlikely until well into next year – by which time 2 million people are likely to have been unemployed for more than three years.

Spain posted Europe's worst budget deficit last year and, although part of that was a one-off €41bn (£35bn) payment to rescue the country's banks, it will still struggle to meet the deficit targets set by Brussels without pushing even more people into unemployment.

This year's deficit target is currently 4.5% of GDP, though that looks likely to be relaxed amid the Europe-wide recession.

Household spending power has fallen to 2001 levels, thanks to a combination of unemployment, falling salaries and increased income and sales taxes, with almost one in three Spanish households now struggling to pay monthly bills.

"This has grown brutally in recent years," said Carlos Susías of the Network against Poverty and Social Exclusion.

In France, a wave of industrial layoffs sent unemployment soaring further over the 3 million level hit last August and the previous all-time record of 3,195,500 set in January 1997.

Hollande reaffirmed his goal to reverse the rising trend, calling on his government to combine with industry and other players to use all means possible to create jobs.

"Everything the government does, in every ministry, must be to continue to strengthen the battle for jobs," he said. "I want all the French people to unite behind this one national priority."

Carmakers headed a list of businesses laying off workers. PSA Peugeot Citroen is scrapping more than 10,000 domestic jobs and rival Renault aims to cut 7,500 posts in France by 2016.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 7 years ago

From The Other 98% :

I've got some super-exciting news.

We're teaming up with Senator Bernie Sanders TODAY to deliver millions of signatures to the White House and Congress with one message: hands off our Social Security.

And the best part? You can watch it live.

Join us, Bernie, and a broad coalition of progressive allied groups to make it clear that any member of Congress who votes to cut Social Security is voting to end their political career: the video will begin streaming at 12:45 eastern, and you can check for updates starting NOW.

Want to help us spread the word even more effectively? Click here to share the event on Twitter and on Facebook.

Thank you for all you do to make this movement real.


John Sellers, The Other 98%

BTW - what I added when I signed the petition:

I'm asking you, as my Representative in Congress, to support the one-sentence Cancel The Sequester Act, and get back to fixing actual longstanding problems we face back at home.

Get the corpoRAT tax loopholes closed and collect taxes from them - the wealthy successful businesses that are underpaying or even not paying 0r worst actually getting public/government money while not paying taxes.

Go after the 32 trillion hidden in tax havens.

Instead of public austerity - we should be looking into public prosperity.

End the fossil fuel subsidies and redirect into green energy development and implementation.

Get the "People's" government working for the People ALL of the People.



[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

GOP lies?


[-] 0 points by analystwanabe99 (153) 7 years ago

What a surprise . . . they ALL lie!

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

It is unethical to balance the budget on the backs of the sick.& elderly


Please sign the petition.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

It's immoral to balance budget on the acks of poor women and children.


[-] 0 points by analystwanabe99 (153) 7 years ago

No argument from me. Right on brother.

[-] 0 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

States rights? Like the confederates, and the segregationists?

No thanks we already rejected that lunacy.

i am not against govt. I am against bad govt. Our current debt was created by mostly repub govts. We don't have to knoweverything about debt to know the best way to deal with it isto have the more fiscally responsible party in power.

[-] -2 points by analystwanabe99 (153) 7 years ago

WOW!! Is there such a thing??? Any time you have trillions involved there will be graft and corruption. Now . . .what did you say?

[-] 0 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

"Back to the states" is just racist code words.

Did you hear that johny reb!

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

We can afford our safety nets. These federal programs are self funded and have Robust Revenue Streams. The numbers are big to look at. But you have to take a long view of things. The business cycles go up and down. There are boom times and recessions. we have lost wages and jobs, but that is what Social Safety Nets are for. And as I say these are Trust Funds which get revenue from tax deductions from payroll or income. SS would be great if we just made the Wealthy pay their share without a minumum or Ceiling maximum - Flat Rate on SS, FICA, Medicaid, everything just the way it was meant to be.

Now we should end the wars, force our soldiers and airmen to station in the USA, close down bases in South Korea, Japan, Spain, Italy, Germany, Etc. What we are in 170 countries or something. And we spend more on weapons ... it is all just a scheme, a financial scheme that MIC Lobby sets up wars and contracts with DOD & Congress. But look we have great funding for our people, so take a look at the numbers.

Defense Vendor Payments 1998 = $95.6 Billion
Defense Vendor Payments 2011 = $394 Billion

DOD Federal Outlays 1998 = $256 Billion
DOD Federal Outlays 2011 = $680 Billion

Department of Education outlays 1998 = $43.7 Billion
Department of Education outlays 2011 = $245.6 Billion (500% increase)

Federal Highway Administration 1998 = $19 Billion
Federal Highway Administration 2011 = $44.8 Billion

Health and Human Services Grants (misc) 1998 = $37.7 Billion
Health and Human Services Grants (misc) 2011 = $101.9 Billion
Food and Nutrition Service (misc) 1998 = $ 13.7 Billion
Food and Nutrition Service (misc) 2011 = $ 95.7 Billion
Supple. Nutrition Assist. Program (SNAP) 1998 = $20 Billion
Supple. Nutrition Assist. Program (SNAP) 2011 = $77.6 Billion
Total Food and Nutrician Services 1998 = $33 Billion
Total Food and Nutrician Services 2011 = $102 Billion

Temporary Assistance for Needy Families 1998 = $13 Billion
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families 2011 = $18.9 Billion
Total Administration for Children and Families (HHS) 1998 = $32.5 Billion
Total Administration for Children and Families (HHS) 2011 = $54 Billion

Unemployment Insurance Benefits 1998 = $23.4 Billion
Unemployment Insurance Benefits 2011 = $117 Billion

Medicare 1998 = $210 Billion
Medicare 2011 = $552 Billion (no price controls)
Medicaid 1998 = $ 100 Billion
Medicaid 2011 = $ 269 Billion
Total Centers Medicare & Medicaid Services 1998 = $380 Billion
Total Centers Medicare & Medicaid Services 2011 = $1.095 Trillion

Federal Salaries (EFT) 1998 = $87.5 Billion
Federal Salaries (EFT) 2011 = $178.4 Billion

https://www.fms.treas.gov/index.html (US Treasury data on Outlays)

[-] 1 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago


[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Personally Clintons defense budget was like $300 Billion and today we are like $650 Billion. We should cut back to like $400 Billion for DOD, but let them spend $50 Billion to build barracks in the USA for service members stationed overseas that have to come back to the USA. Then maybe $50 Billon for repairing war equipment over the next 5 years.

Not sure how much you know about budgeting.

But if we cut Defense that money can prevent austerity and help with the social safety net.

[-] 1 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

We MUST cut defense and do it in a way that minimizes layoffs.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23265) 7 years ago

The only austerity that should be imposed is on the wealthy and corporations. Their income has increased over 11% during the recovery while everyone else's is flat.


[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

Agreed, Excellent article. I saw something that states 93% of the wealth created recently went to the top 1%.

That is a structural problem that MUST be changed.

Best way would be to force the oligarch business owners to raise wages for the workers. And definitely increase revenue from the wealthy.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23265) 7 years ago

There is no reason why corporations can't share more of the profits with workers. We need a living wage. There is plenty of wealth to go around and the concentration to the 1% is immoral. The overarching reason for our government is to protect the general welfare of the people, as stated in the Preamble, and it needs to start doing that. No where in the Constitution does it say we need to have a capitalist economy that exploits 99% of people.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23265) 7 years ago

The only austerity that should be imposed is on the wealthy and corporations. Austerity on anyone else is immoral.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

The Rich are 'sitting' (hoarding) trillions of OUR wealth. They (& the recovery) can withstand some increased taxes forthesake of addressing the self destructive economic inequity.

In reality it is just to take back the wealth that the 1% have taken over the last 3 decades.

"It's the only way to be sure"

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23265) 7 years ago

They sure are. The party's over. Stealing proper wages from Americans is not cool.

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

I only hope we can grow the movement enough,& keep up the pressure long enough to get real change.

I think it will be years of hard work ahead.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23265) 7 years ago

Revolutions take a long time, many years, so don't give up, we are just planting the seeds now.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Oh not me. I've been waiting since the '70's for some glimmer of hope.

Clinton turned out to just a transitional moderate. Disappointment, Obama (moderate) is still hampered by obstruction.

But Occupy has lit a fire under many progressive groups and millions of people.

So I am must hopeful that real change CAN come.

Only large forceful protests will counter the massive amounts of money from the corp 1% oligarchs.

It's up to us.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

The 99% are not consuming (which I actually support) this is why our economy is still sluggish.


FYI (& a shameless bump for this post/subject)

[-] 6 points by beautifulworld (23265) 7 years ago

All we can hope for now is that the 1% falls with the 99%.

From the article re: the stock market which TPTB like to use as an economic barometer: "Yes, the stock market has rebounded. But only a small portion of Americans are affected by the rebound. The richest 1 percent own 35 percent of all shares of stock; the richest 10 percent own 90 percent."

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

What a scam the stock market is. The crash hurt the lowest income stockholders most.

My hope is that the 1% finally get all their hidden income taxed & fined.

They'll be ok even with that occurance.

[-] -1 points by RwOrn (-290) from Berkeley, CA 7 years ago

Union pension funds are invested in the stock market. The union employees are the 99%.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Yeah the crash was designed to hurt those pension investments most of all. While wall st banksters new of bad mtg/bad investments they still pushed them onto pension investors.

[-] -2 points by RwOrn (-290) from Berkeley, CA 7 years ago

Most working people do not belong to a union.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

So? Does that make it ok to swindle the decent hard working Americans who do belong to unions?

And I assure you the non union workers with 401K were also defrauded.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

They would be well served to form or join one. In any event ALL workers benefit from the victories of union sacrifices over the last 100 years.

[-] -3 points by RwOrn (-290) from Berkeley, CA 7 years ago

You have ADD

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

blatantly false personal attacks against me simply show your surrender to me on the issue.

Smoked again!!!

Raise taxes on the rich. invest in job creation!!!

Forget the phony deficit fear mongering being spewed by tea party/libertarians.

[-] -3 points by RwOrn (-290) from Berkeley, CA 7 years ago

You can't seem to follow a conversation,.....you go off on tangents that have nothing to do with my original post, hence, ADD.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 7 years ago

Funny thing about that stock market rebound ( any of them to this point in time ).

They have not mirrored recovery in the work/employment market.

All just smoke and mirrors. Smoke & Mirrors.


[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 7 years ago

A good starting place would be the continual waste of money being thrown at wallstreet - then - there are fossil fuel subsidies. How F'n sick.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (23265) 7 years ago

Notice the stock market going up? The wealthy and corporations absolutely love these austerity measures. They know their entitlements are not being cut, just those of the poor and middle class. They're delighted and can breathe a sigh of relief that the exploitation of the masses is being legislated to continue.

[-] 5 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 7 years ago

As corporations are enjoying record profits...the 99% are heading to new lows


[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 7 years ago

Yes it was good, but if we could curtail our military adventurism,

We would be less likely to have the 'blow-back' from it

Hence we would then need fewer HS & TSA employees, and that would be OK with me


[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

I agree with you 100%. Less war. cut the defense budget in half, cut DHS, TSA.

long overdue, Never truly needed. Always came from fear mongering.

years of hard work on our parts will be required.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 7 years ago

And some good old-fashioned luck. As Chris Hedges who covered the up-risings in Eastern Europe pointed out, there is no way to predict these things (revolutions).

It could be the cumulative negative effects, and our reaching out that trigger the critical mass we need, or unfortunately, it could also be an economic, human or environmental catastrophe


[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

I vote for the 'reaching out....trigger', Definitely not the 'catastrophe'

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 7 years ago

Thanks for the link below


[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

No prob, my pleasure.

[-] 2 points by windyacres (1197) 7 years ago

Hello friend. alterorabolish1 here. I apparently got banned.

Hope you and OTH are doing well. LOVE!

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 7 years ago

I'll second that...


[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

And yet the streets are empty... That fact is the key to why everything is happening and the reason why it will continue.

Occupy Social Outreach.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 7 years ago

"And yet the streets are empty." I know it's disheartening that this rev is not further along. Still though the cracks are expanding...

I see more and more people realizing what has, and still is going on

While talking to a 50-60 yr old woman at my credit union the other day, i was surprised at how aware she was, and how much she understood what the Occupy movement is about, and supported us in spirit anyway

Then just an hour ago, a guy in front of me, on the check-out line at my local super-market was trashing the government to the cashier when i chimed in and joined him, but went a little further

Anyway, he waited for me in the foyer as i asked him to, and I took from the sale paper bin Occucard #15... Republicrats, and handed it to him with a brief speal

I had put the cards in the bin on my way in so I knew that they were there..lol

And yes, you are the one who reminded me of those cards, as i had seen plenty of them in NY

Without wanting to pat myself on the back,,maybe a little..lol., this type of engaing people in conversation and educating them is something we should all do whenever the opportunity presents itself

"Nothing that is worthwhile is ever easy. Remember that [OTP]."...Nicholas Sparks...



[-] 3 points by gsw (3324) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 7 years ago

Good story. I hadn't seen this. I think the elders understand things aren't so great for the kids grandkids and great grandkids. Their parents lived in original great depression.


[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 7 years ago

Thanks, i felt good about reaching out to those people too, and i wonder what will become of the knowledge I gave them. I know that sounds pompous, sorry...but we have to put all that shit aside, as well as our egos, and share what we do and encourage each other to do more

There is a lot of love between the generations who are suffering, and this rotten system has played itself out in countless hurtful ways to their loved ones

A Dad who is out of work....a daughter who can't pay her college loans off working at Wallmart....a Grandma & Grandpa who lost most of their money, and hence their chance for a Golden Retirement. It goes on and on

The power of exponential growth is fantastic, and i hope the people that i reached out to go on to learn, and then educate more people, and they in turn........you get the picture

How we market ourselves is a controversial issue even in NY, perhaps mostly there because of the negative connotations with the word 'market', as it probably reminds people of how neoliberalism was dishonestly marketed to us

However, i believe how we market our message is important, and the big difference is; we can and should always be honest about it

Hence the hybrid flyer i made up ends with; Choose The World That Your Kids Grow Up In....Support Occupy Wall Street, ......or Don't Complain, .....and The Corrupt Status Quo Will Continue By Default....The Choice Is Yours

Also, I have been in touch with the Occucard guy, and he is interested in doing a similar-type card to my flyer, and I also sent him a bunch of stuff from OWSNY.

He in turn sent me some extra cards, Wells Fargo ones, but they would not be good advertising for WF...lol

Finally, I would like to try and link this forum, with both the administration here, and/or to him as well


[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

"The goal of leaders is to create more leaders, not more followers" -Nader.

Theres a saying called "Each one teach one"... I think that is a good way to look at activism in general. Another lifetime activist here said "Be active, but dont get too attached to the results".

Just little things like those cards are great. People always tell me "Ya, it looks like your stuff is doing a lot of good...not." I tell them that I am only one guy, I cannot change the world all alone. But I am doing MY part.

I always enjoy telling conservatives "Self governance is not a hand out. Its work"... that hits em right in one of their favorite talking points :)

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 7 years ago

Damn, I just had a longer thoughtful comment wiped out

For the most part there are no big egos in Occupy

Wherever and whatever you are best at is usually what you end up doing, but if you want to grow too, there is plenty of room for that, as most of us are new to the activism 'trade'

This is a collective world-wide effort, which was made even clearer to me when I complimented one of the people who works so hard for the success of this movement, and she replied back, "here's looking at you."

I would not have believed that this younger generation would be the one to wake us all up, and I feel nothing but respect and gratitude to them for having done so


[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

Here's lookin at you. :)

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 7 years ago



[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

UFPJ supports the progressive back to work budget.

This Tuesday, March 19, the House of Representatives is expected to vote on a budget for FY 2014.

Please call your Representative today at 877-429-0678. Urge them to vote YES on the Progressive Caucus "Back to Work Budget."

Back to Work Budget - Green JobsAs you already know, Rep. Paul Ryan's budget is beyond devastating-- dismembering Medicare, slashing Medicaid and dismantling other vitally important social programs If enacted, it will put the United States on a fast-track back to 1928.

Fortunately, the Congressional Progressive Caucus has proposed a "Back to Work" Budget which puts the emphasis back where it belongs: the creation of seven million jobs, the preservation of the "entitlements," and full funding for domestic social programs. Deficit reduction will be achieved by increasing the number of working Americans, by raising taxes on the rich and making reductions in the Pentagon budget. For more details: http://cpc.grijalva.house.gov/ back-to-work-budget/

Although we would prefer larger cuts from the Pentagon, the CPC Budget represents an immense step forward. It is already changing the terms of the national debate.

But to make a real difference, we need a large number of Representatives to vote YES on this "Back to Work Budget." National and local groups across the country are sponsoring call-in days in support of this budget.

When you read this message, help us swamp the House phones. Call toll free 877-429-0678. (Thanks to Friends Committee on National Legislation for the toll-free number!)

During this week, Progressive Democrats for America will be continuing its effort to personally deliver messages to local offices around the country. To get more information and get involved with a letter drop near you: http://www.pdacommunity.org/ issues/bblv-mission

Please let Rusti and Gael, co-conveners UFPJ Legislative Working Group, if you received any feedback on your calls: rustiandgael@unitedforpeace. org

  • UFPJ's Legislative Working Group and the Jobs Not Wars Campaign
[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23265) 7 years ago

How can anyone justify this economic system? It is an abject failure and if it isn't fixed soon, we're in big trouble.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 7 years ago

This system cannot be justified bw for the enviromental crisis that we are in alone

Any economic system that requires endless growth, hence the endless need to plunder and foul our planet, while putting its ihabitants at risk

Is ill-equipped to handle the problems of the 21st century and beyond


[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23265) 7 years ago

Exactly, Odin. You hit the nail on the head. For, while we treat humans poorly, this system also treats Mother Earth poorly. It is a requirement of a system that is never sated.

It does not have to be this way. The economy can and must change to meet the needs of the information revolution and globalization as this system we are currently in has become antiquated.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 7 years ago

Honestly bw, it took me a while after I first came here to realize all this, but it is oh so clear now

Other people here have undergone the same enlightening that I have, and it will be repeated by others over and over again as they understand the big picture


[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23265) 7 years ago

It is a learning process and our job is to educate more people because, as you now know, the truth is pretty clear.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Grayson is one the few honest fighters for the 99% you can hear him tomorrow.


[-] 0 points by Theeighthpieceuv8 (-32) from Seven Sisters, Wales 7 years ago

Bad time to buy? Some obviously don't think so. And I'd be willing to bet the brokers are all going holy shit right now.

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

I would back that in a second.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

How about Grayson? Will you support his efforts?


Please sign

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Time for the transaction tax.


Please sign the petition.

[-] 0 points by Theeighthpieceuv8 (-32) from Seven Sisters, Wales 7 years ago

Haha... sickies, sickies everywhere... tax the whitie, we want MORE. And you'll still be poverty stricken. Your vehemence and envy runneth over.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 7 years ago

When they get 85 billion in free money pumped into them on a regular basis by the government - well - they should be doing well - OH - That is until our National Debt is so absurd - that everyone jumps out and we finally experience the crash ( in full ) that has been staved off to this point in time - then the real fun will begin - can anyone say - HYPERINFLATION ???

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (23265) 7 years ago

Right. Where's the outrage???

And, you're being followed by trolls again, I see.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 7 years ago

Can't help it ( the following ) I am just a real popular guy. {:-])

There should be huge outrage - are there sedatives in the water?

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23265) 7 years ago

Don't bring up the water supply. It would not surprise me.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 7 years ago

Sad to actually have to consider that possibility - Hey?

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago
[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23265) 7 years ago

Thanks. They use the confusing Chained CPI, which no one understands, to slip in their cuts. Disgusting.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

I see this capitulation to conservative deficit reduction dogma as a betrayal of the progressive goals. Conservatives will not compromise and we will hurt the middle class.

We MUST agitate ALL pols against any destructive austerity and for good job creating/higher wages/debt abolishment stimulus.

Spending/deficits is conservative phony crises rhetoric designed to destroy the safety net. Unemployment/low wages/indentured servitude are the real problems.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (23265) 7 years ago

All true inclusionman. It is time for Democratic supporters to start standing up to the weakness that is the foundation of that party. Before it is too late.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

No doubt. We've lost so much ground over 3 decades already because of the abandonment of progressive principles by spineless or corrupt Dems, and heartless, corrupt pols the goals seems unattainable.

But I know the people united will NEVER be defeated.

Peace, & Solidarity.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

More MSM coverage that does not serve the 99%



[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Most people in blind test preferred the Dem approach to sequester/deficit law.


[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

"Austerity doesn't work. We cannot possibly pay off a $16 trillion debt by tightening our belts, slashing public services, and raising taxes.", from :

"It is also the duty of government to provide the public services necessary for a secure and prosperous life for its people. As Thomas Edison observed in the 1920s, if the government can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill. Both are backed by "the full faith and credit of the United States." Therefore, the government can pay for all the services its people need and eliminate budget crises permanently, simply by issuing the dollars to pay for them, debt-free and interest-free."

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

Sounds like a plan.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Yep & it's it a good plan too, especially : http://publicbankinginstitute.org/ !!!

fiat lux ...

[-] 3 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

Haven't seen that org.


Heres another good group (not banking but important)


[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Great link from a great guy !!! Thanx !! Me likey ! ergo ...

Financial Crime - of, by, and for our Predatory Capitalists

radix omnium malorum est cupuditas ...

[-] 3 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

A great explanation of the debacle that is capitalism.

[-] 1 points by whaddyathink (-89) from Millville, NJ 7 years ago

"Full faith and credit" is a joke. It's been stretched to the limit. U.S. dollars aren't worth the paper they're printed on because there are so many of them. Wake up!

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Tell Obama no cuts to Social Security & Medicare.


[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

I'm guessing that you didn't actually read Ellen Brown's article. So before I doze off again, I'll leave you with some choice excerpts :

"Money today is simply a legal agreement between parties. Nothing backs it but "the full faith and credit of the United States." The United States could issue its credit directly to fund its own budget, just as our forebears did in the American colonies and as Abraham Lincoln did in the Civil War.

" People and governments are drowning in debt because our money comes into existence only as a debt to banks at interest. As Robert Hemphill of the Atlanta Federal Reserve observed in the 1930s : "We are completely dependent on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money, we are prosperous; if not, we starve."

"In the US monetary system, the only money that is not borrowed from banks is the "base money" or "monetary base" created by the Treasury and the Federal Reserve (the Fed). The Treasury creates only the tiny portion consisting of coins. All of the rest is created by the Fed.

"Despite its name, the Fed is at best only quasi-federal and most of the money it creates is electronic rather than paper. We the people have no access to this money, which is not turned over to the government or the people but goes directly into the reserve accounts of private banks at the Fed."

I could excerpt the whole article but I really think that you'll gain from reading Ellen Brown. Ergo :

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by whaddyathink (-89) from Millville, NJ 7 years ago

I don't disagree with what you just cut and pasted.

Your OWN cut & paste...."Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money, we are prosperous; if not, we starve."


More spending of synthetic money.

Doesn't that strike you as f'n nutty???

Hello ???????????????????????????????????????

Do you even understand your own argument?

[-] -1 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

Careful there. Excessive money printing will lead to rampant inflation similar to what occurred in the confederacy and in the '30s in Germany.

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Join with La Raza in opposition to devastating cuts!!!


[+] -4 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

And that is in reply to what???? I was commenting on excessive money printing. Are you capable of staying on topic?

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

This thread is about no cuts, no austerity. My comment/link is all about no cuts.

I believe my comment is on topic, your money printing comment is NOT on topic, so I am simply responding in order to get you back on topic.

Please do not support cutting the programs that help the 99%. We MUST have investments in job creation to grow the economy.

Here is another petition to that end.


The 99% thank you in advance.

[-] -3 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

VQ. Do us a favor. Why don't you read the comments below from myself, shadz66 and dsamms. You might actually learn something rather than just jumping in to break the flow. It was a very good discussion from6 days ago, was competed, yet you just threw that comment in there for attention. I see you did not respond the same to dsamms or shadz66 to stay on topic. Why is that? Answer please.

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

I am an independent thinker. I do not do as other people do. I add comments to good threads when I find updated articles, and I find a comment to respond to.

I chose you because as I recall you brought up the phony "too much printing money" excuse used to justify more cuts to pgms for the 99%.

I thought perhaps you might be persuaded to see the light of your folly.

Is that ok?

[-] -2 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

VQ. How about you read the comments. Excess printing of money would be a real problem. That is simple fact of monetary policy. Nothing phony about that. It is not a good plan solving anything, only makes it worse, especially for the poor. Inflation impacts them the most. I was not using money printing to support a position for cuts. I was commenting on the negative effect of excessive money printing. You just don't listen.

So by your admittance, you like to add comments to good treads? Then do so rather than just insert something that breaks up the flow of some very good discussion. If you wish to join the discussion, then add comment about it. You want to be an independent thinker, then show us what you got instead of the usual rant, partisan nonsense and talking points.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Since I've done nothing wrong, I will continue commenting and contributing the progressive solutions I believe in as I see fit.

I don't acknowledge your authority over the way to add comments.

In this case that is fighting for no cuts/austerity, & for stimulus/spending. To hell with the phony issues of deficit/debt/excessive dollar printing. I reject that right wing excuse for fucking the 99%.

[+] -4 points by VQkag1 (-112) 7 years ago

You're such a phony. Start supporting 99% progressive solutions. Stop being anti-dem. Why are you even here? You enjoy trolling each and everyday from your conservative office?

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Stop harassing me!

[-] -3 points by VQkag1 (-112) 7 years ago

You are the one harassing everyone here with your anti-dem rhetoric. You should support Occupy and support 99% progressive solutions.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Please stop harassing me!

[-] -3 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

So instead of responding to my comment, you give a me a way to contact my congressma about cuts? Do you believe that just printing more money would be a responsible action, as based on Edison's comment?

[-] -3 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

Not sure your meaning. Do you believe that the treasury should just print all the money they want to? Do you understand what would be the result of that type of action? It is not a challenge of full faith and credit capability.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Theeffort is to prevent cutting the safety net, ( SS medicare) Do you wanna cut from the elderly and sick.

Nothing said about treasury printing. not necessary to print more money. I suppose that is you creating a straw man (false argument) to knock down.

Let's stick with the truth.

[-] -3 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

See my comment below. You posted the quote by Thomas Edison, not me. There is no straw man here, just your own words. The truth is how about you remembering what you wrote instead of accusing me of originating it. I do not "wanna" cut anyone's safety net.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

What quote? Couldn't find any Edison quote. Are you makin things up again?

[-] -3 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

Oops, my mistake, your right, that was shadz, not you.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

No problem, forget about it. but the issue still remains.

We must pressure all politicians NOT to cut Social Security, Medicare, & Medicaid.

Can we agree?

[+] -4 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

Yes. But we will need to alter the plan for future generations. Current seniors should not be affected by any possible changes. The politicians have made promises hey can not possibly keep.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Future? If we simply get the economy growing again all future financial responsibilities will be manageable.

Alter what plan? SS, Medicare? We should only expand the coverage, lower the age, etc. NO CUTS!!!

[-] -3 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

The math is not there VQ. Even the previous good economy did not cover the cost, especially as the average age lengthens, etc. we are spending a lot more to live longer than the plan was originally designed for. It needs changes. What expansion are you looking for? What age are you lowering to? Show me the math that covers what you are asking for rather than just making statements. Why not try tackling lower healthcare costs first.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

The math is fine. The economy will grow again and we stop giving away the middle class wealth to the 1%. Once we correct the obscene concentration of wealth among the 1%, and we force through the necessary investment in job creation. The money WILL be there.

The age requirement for medicare should be eliminated! single payer, public option )w/ corp tax & cuts to providers) is the cheapest way to provide healthcare. Age SS should be lowered to 58, by simply removing the payroll cap for contributions, and adding a SS tax to passive income. (cap gains, rental, royalties, etc).

[-] -3 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

Do you really think the few can support the many? So you are proposing what to remove the wealth from the 1%? And how are you doing that? how are you forcing the necessary investment in job creation.? Investment into what? So the government decides what to invest in? What jobs to create? Good luck with that.

you are proposing everyone eligible for Medicare? Not sure what you mean with corp tax and cuts to providers?

Lowering SS age? Using uncapped contributions? SS is a system where by your level of contribution, a determination for payout is made, depending when you start collecting benefits. Are you asking for full benefit at age 58? Show me the math to fund that. You are proposing to tax passive income? Tax, tax, tax. Sorry, that just is not what anyone would support. Anyone with any wealth would leave.

Your saying math is fine and then you add on additional taxes. You are not addressing the fundamental problem of a larger aging population coupled with a higher cost for maintaining quality life (depending on subjectivity) and a higher average life expectancy. Then your adding more cost, more eligible people, etc. The program just needs some major adjustments for future population.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

I think 'we are all in this together' and we can all support each other! We are stronger when we do. Right now the many (99%) are working for the 1%.

The 1% are hoarding trillions of wealth they took unethically from the 99%.

I'm not saying "remove the wealth", only that we get some of the wealth of the 99% back from the1% who got it in unscrupulous ways. They will still be wealthy. And if they threaten to leave we SHOULD take all the wealth they've made in THIS country from the 99% in THIS country.

The PEOPLES govt should decide on investments in job creation that will benefit the 99%. Obviously.

Medicare can insist on lower costs to big pharma, & hospitals, eliminating criminal private health care costs will also saving billions.

Aging populations are not "fundamental problems" Keeping people alive is a success!!! Cutting their med costs is what I am talkin about.

The math is fine. The will to help the 99%, and a recognition that for 30 years the1% have bought the peoples govt and rigged the system against the 99% is at the root of ALL our problems.

That is the fundamental problem!!!! trickle down, weak regs, low taxes on wealthy, outsourcing, stagnant wages! NOT aging population, or deficit/debt.

Fix the economic inequity, and stimulate rather than impose austerity and all the math will be fine.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Sign Graysons no cut petition


We need you.

[-] 0 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

VQ. Now what? Instead of these random inserts for attention and bumping, why not make a comment to what I wrote. So do you agree or disagree with excessive money printing would cause inflation?

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

I already told you I do not. I said further that the greedy, selfish, corrupt corp 1% create inflation.

Now I'm alerting you to action on the ground that Occupy the economy is taking. Can you be there to support us.?

Do you frequently ask stupid questions (that have already been answered) and have to have obvious things explained?

[-] -3 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

Just giving you an example of what you do here.

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

I ain't 'VQ', Can you read my motherfuckin username moron? Try to follow will you.

[-] -2 points by oldJanet (-14) 7 years ago

But, you are VQ. Your moronism is detectable a mile away.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

I can't be 2 users at once idiot. I AM repubsRtheprob. Period.

NOT 'VQ'. Say what you like. It is what it is. And I do not discuss these meaningless obvious issues. My attention is best used to discuss issues that affect the 99%.

The username I use does not rise to that level of importance.

So fuck off with meaninglessness.

[-] -2 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 7 years ago

Is moronism even a word?

[-] -2 points by Builder (4202) 7 years ago

Not sure. Moronosity is though.

As in, inclusionman and his band of merry upvoters are waaaaayy off the moronosity scale.

Dragging this forum into a pit of pitiful self-aggrandisement.

[-] -2 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 7 years ago

Excellent use of the word moronosity in a sentence, Builder.

Apparently moronism is a real word. My spellchecker highlighted it but I blew the dust of my trusty Funk & Wagnalls and it's in there.

But you're correct, the ridiculous self-bumping by VQ aka repub aka Imagine40, etc. is gotten way out of hand. And don't get me started about the points. Some of these guys are crack-addicted.

[-] -2 points by Builder (4202) 7 years ago

There certainly is a moronism problem.

I think he's trying to start a new one-man-many-hats religious cult.

We'll keep it simple and call it Moronism then.

[-] -2 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 7 years ago

I like. "The cult of Moronism."

It has a nice ring.

[-] -2 points by Builder (4202) 7 years ago

It does indeed.

The leader (and all of the cultists) come from the planet Lesbos. (No men there)

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Builders of anti gay bigotry


Some on this forum are filled with hate and ignorance they can't support civil rights for all. And spread anti gay "jokes" instead of support for our fellow 99%'rs.

No wonder there is so little support for this important issue/thread..


You said:

[-] -2 points by Builder (3885) 3 weeks ago

It does indeed.

The leader (and all of the cultists) come from the planet Lesbos. (No men there) ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

(figured you'll probably delete this like most cowardly bigots.)

[-] 0 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

You sure are busy digging up old posts. What are you trying to bury?

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

And how does pointing out one anti gay post amount to "posts"? or "a lot of posts" as you said on another thread? Stick to the truth.

I guess you most resort to lies to distract from the fact that you support anti gay, misogynistic "jokes"?

Lying, bigoted, piece of shit!!!

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Nothing. Why do you think I'm trying to bury something?

I'm only pointing out a homophobic, misogynistic "joke".

I guess you have no objection to that bogotry?

[-] -2 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 7 years ago

Damn, Builder, that was cold.

But funny.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

You ARE spending hours personally attacking me (instead of discussing OWS issues) along with your cabal of dishonest whiny friends who I presume are responsible for all my thousands of lost points, your comments and threads prove that.

I don't care about the points. You claim you are justified for this inappropriate personal attack because of some unfounded accusation that I have downvoted you.

You have offered NO PROOF! Are we not allowed to downvote certain people? Is your dishonest whiny cabals efforts at personally attacking me just an attempt to bully me? Yes!

Are you really simply against my politics? YES!

Are you simply trying to chase meaway? YES!!!

Are you trying to rally others to your anti OWS goals? Without a doubt..

Is it my anti racism posts? my anti banksters posts, anti foreclosure posts.? anti NRA posts?

I spend a couple of hours a day posting important info and actions.

You and your immature, dishonest, whiny friends have now spent the better part of 2 days polluting this good forum with innappropriate, unfounded personal attacks against an Occupy wall st supporter who has been steadfast in my progressive pro OWS posts.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Put aside your hate! Try to embrace the ideals of OWS, inform more people of our progressive solutions, And organize/join activities in support of issues that benefit the 99%.

I don't hate you, I use my time on this forum to inform, and encourage activism in support of the 99%.

I've never asked you or any one else to stop downvoting me because I DON'T CARE about the numbers. Please don't ask me to vote a certain way, I believe I vote responsibly and honestly. I am certainly NOT responsible for all the downvotes you and your cabal of whiny liars accuse me of.

I can't prevent you from dishonestly personally attacking me. That is up to your own moral compass.

I will continue posting important info, and valuable Occupy actions and voting responsibly. And you can spend you nights yukkin it up with the sophomoric, children with lies and schoolyards taunts.

Please grow up, & put aside your childish hate.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 7 years ago

That's exactly what I'd expect you to say, V. You grow the fuck up and stop your personal attack against me and I'll grow the fuck up and do the same. You and I both know you're doing it so stop with the lies. See, that argument goes both ways, man. By the way, I don't waste hours of my time downvoting you, I have better things to do with my time. You get downvoted because half the people on this forum don't particularly like you. I, on the other hand, only have one person here that constantly attacks me. And as we both know, that would be you. And I don't care about my cumulative point count, what pisses me off is seeing every one of my comments downvoted by you, even in older threads. Threads that are months old. You want to bury the hatchet and get along, cool, then quit fucking with my points. It's simple as that. I'll say it again; grow the fuck up.

By the way, I signed your petition on Trevor's Food is Power thread. See, V, I'm not that bad a guy.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Forget the personal attacks & comedy.!!! Support the 99% in the class!!


No cuts!! No Austerity!!


[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 7 years ago

I'll make a deal with you i'man. You stop the personal attacks by going thru old threads and downvoting every one of my comments and I'll stop the personal attacks against you. How's that sound?

And don't give me that tired old bullshit that you don't do that and that "points don't matter. Stick to the issues." We know full well that's exactly what you do almost on a daily basis. Sp spare me the bullshit lies. Your completely hollow denials don't fool anyone.

And maybe, just maybe, if you do that, I'll start checking out your links. Until then, I ignore just about everything you post here. Someone as blatantly dishonest and self-absorbed as you doesn't deserve the attention.

[-] -2 points by Builder (4202) 7 years ago

I'm having trouble believing it's a real person behind all those personas, gnomunny. I've worked on a forum where we had a "learning" bot that got smarter the more we interacted with "her".

That's the only thing that I'm having trouble understanding with imagine40 and co. He just doesn't get any smarter. Maybe it's not as recent a bot as the one we had.

Every single ID he creates is exactly the same as the one before. If there really are moderaters occasionally turning up here, then I am convinced that it's a bot of some primitive kind. The repetition is leaving me cold.

I hope something happens with this site, or move to another, like T is proposing. Things are moving in a circular motion on this site. I still drop by to read, but it's a pain having to wade through the garbage left lying around by the Moronists. ;-)

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Forget the meaningless subject of IDs/personas!!!

Support the 99% in this class war!!


No cuts!! No Austerity!!

[-] 0 points by oIdJanet (-94) 7 years ago

I don't think it's a bot. It could be, but I really don't think it is. Whatever it is, it's moronic. That we agree on.

[-] -1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 7 years ago

I never considered a bot. But I did read an article last year that talked about just what you said about a 'learning bot.' It's disturbing sometimes, how far technology has come.

I've noticed a big slowdown in this site recently, too. A dearth of new posts. If something doesn't happen soon, it's liable to die completely. And I kind of like T's idea. We had an extended conversation about it a few nights ago.

[-] -3 points by Builder (4202) 7 years ago

Don't worry. Inclusionman will be along to save the day

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

The Inflation Conundrum :

"The threat of price inflation is the excuse invariably used for discouraging (any) sort of "irresponsible" monetary policy today, based on the Milton Friedman dictum that "inflation is everywhere and always a monetary phenomenon." When the quantity of money goes up, says the theory, more money will be chasing fewer goods, driving prices up.

"What that theory overlooks is the supply side of the equation. As long as workers are sitting idle and materials are available, increased demand will put workers to work creating more supply. Supply will rise along with demand, and prices will remain stable."

"True, today these additional workers might be in China, or they might be robots. But the principle still holds: if we want the increased supply necessary to satisfy the needs of the people and the economy, more money must first be injected into the economy. Demand drives supply. People must have money in their pockets before they can shop, stimulating increased production. Production doesn't need as many human workers as it once did. To get enough money in the economy to drive the needed supply, it might be time to issue a national dividend divided equally among the people.

"Increased demand will drive up prices only when the economy hits full productive capacity. It is at that point, and not before, that taxes may need to be levied - not to fund the federal budget, but to prevent "overheating" and keep prices stable. Overheating in the current economy could be a long time coming, however, since according to the Fed's figures, $4 trillion needs to be added into the money supply just to get it back to where it was in 2008.

"Taxes might be avoided altogether if excess funds were pulled out with fees charged for various government services. A good place to start might be with banking services rendered by publicly owned banks that returned their profits to the public." from :

ad iudicium ...

[-] 0 points by DSamms (-294) 7 years ago

Problem is the demand and supply curves do not move simultaneously. Demand increases lowering supply, price increases, and then supply increases to meet demand at the new, higher, price. As supply increases, satisfying demand, prices then (should) decrease. It's an elastic relationship.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Economix is NOT a hard science !!! It fails to factor in the vagaries - both good and bad, of the human psyche !! Consider, what effect does 'greed and altruism' ; 'selfishness and compassion' ; 'meanness and magnanimity', have on your text book answer ?!

Anthropology, psychology and sociology are far better lenses through which to view human economic relations - but they of course do not provide trite, glib or easy 'pseudo-scientific' answers. Also, please perhaps consider :

ad iudicium ...

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

"Injustice on a medieval scale, served up with a medieval caste-privilege flavor. The only difference is that nowadays injustices are presented with spreadsheets and PowerPoints, rather than with scrolls and trumpets and kingly proclamations. And remember : The White House represents the liberal side of these negotiations.", from : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article34115.htm & re. your link - I hope the meeting well well.

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 1 points by DSamms (-294) 7 years ago

I agree that economics, sociology, psychology, anthropology and political science are arbitrary divisions and distinctions of human behavior. Thus, I do not consider economics a "hard science" either -- in many ways it oversimplifies human behavior, especially it's (always) "rational" actor assumption.

But it does offer a useful framework for discussion -- and yes, commonsense is a requirement.

Just posted the same link below, as a matter of fact.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

"Responding to Financial Crisis : Are Austerity and Suffering Inevitable ?", by Jayati Ghosh :

From which, I excerpt : "All too often people in countries experiencing financial crisis are told that the road to recovery necessarily involves pain, that fiscal austerity and cuts in spending that adversely affect the lives of ordinary citizens are necessary costs of correction of macroeconomic imbalances and the consequent adjustment that is considered essential for recovery. This is repeated so often that it is now taken as received wisdom by policy makers and civil society alike – yet in fact it is not true at all. It can actually be plausibly argued that in several situations the reverse is correct, that attempts to reverse economic downswings through cuts in public spending are counterproductive and makes matters much worse.". Finally, I can't recommend Ellen Brown's article enough, so once again :

Thanx for your comment and frankly, what validity can any 'Economic Theory' really have without some explanation of 'Money Creation' ?

minima maxima sunt ...

[-] 0 points by DSamms (-294) 7 years ago

Money, in its most basic sense, is merely a store of value, a container if you will, which enables someone to translate their goods or services into an easily transferable form thus allowing them to trade those goods and services without resort to barter with all its attendant difficulties and drawbacks (price setting, lack of necessary goods to trade, etc.).

The problem with money, however, is debt -- an exchange of money now for goods or services (or simply more money) at a later date -- and the profit on that debt, interest. This is strictly a financial transaction and the debtor-creditor relationship is nether value neutral, nor power neutral (i.e.: a creditor assumes a dominate role in the relationship and requires the debtor assent to the creditor's terms and conditions). (NOTE: Consider the implications of the relationship between the U.S. and its bondholders.)

Thus what we discuss is essentially an unequal power relationship.

As important, however, is the effect of debt (essentially money creation in the case of fractional banking) on prices. If a price for a good is stable, even if there are more willing buyers than goods, limitations on the money supply will tend to keep that price stable. If however, more money is made available to the buyers via debt, all other considerations being equal, prices will rise (because the "supply" of buyers and/or their money has increased rapidly).

And this can become a vicious circle, if the supply remains fixed or the sellers agree to eliminate price competition -- both of which are in the best interests of sellers and creditors as either provides not only a higher return on the sellers' investments but also more money lent at interest...

[-] -3 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

I have no real issues with what you mention on monetary and fiscal policies. My point was that "excessive" dollars will result in inflation, which ultimately hurts the lower class (wages never keep pace) and becomes a regressive policy. I would like to see policies which make it desirable for the companies with money to start investing again. That money is already there, just not in circulation as it could be. It circulates in the monetary markets, not in the public market where it is needed for real stimulation. The one issue with supply side is that today we do not have excess resources (materials and energy) as in previous times. A fast rise in demand, while good for jobs, etc. will stress the resources and may result in a quicker "overheating" effect. This remains to be seen. (I am not sure the supply and demand curves will both move simultaneously in this next economic growth period as you mention and keep the prices fixed.) Some of these past production / material cost stresses were resolved with the large productivity gains we had in the past growth period. But we have again reached the diminishing return point on the productivity curve and await the next technology leap forward (if there is one). Unfortunately, it may be in the form of high automation, which then impacts jobs. Our real hope is in new energy production from a environmental, sustainable and cost perspective. It may also depend on where the next cheap source of labor is (Africa). But that is only temporary in the long view. As more of the worlds population comes into the supply/demand equation, these theories may need some adjustment. It is much more complex to control our economy that is so connected on such a global scale vs how we attempted it within our own borders in the past. And the continuing rising debt, not just in this country but around the world will play another significant part in monetary and fiscal policies. I was fortunate to be around some notable economic minds while in school during some very dificult periods. The student of today will need to learn these new lessons well to be able to deal with the challenges ahead.

[-] -2 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

VQ You already said that above.....why the repeat? This is the third time you posted this within 3 minutes of each other? On the same post. Why? do you need the bump? Do you require that much attention? Such Childish behavior!

[-] 0 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Because it's important you fuckin moron. You can't figure that out.??

Stop asking stupid questions. Ask mommy before you bother me with your goddamn ignorance.

[-] -3 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

VQ Are you capable of mutual respect? Do you always resort to insulting and language in poor taste? You posted ths same response multiple times, to me twice. Did you realize that or does your keyboard have diarrhea? Calm down. Maybe you need a time out again. But then you could always respond with inclusionman or imagine40 and whatever else you use.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

All the dictums and shibolleths of Crapitalism are in now question, as what is needed is an economic system that works for the majority 99%, not the 'faux Trickle Down' which is actually clearly 'Hoover Up' for the 1%. As a cheeky aside, please may I commend paragraphing to you ;-) & finally I append fyi :

"If you want your economy to excel in the 21st century .... a big banking sector, even a very successful banking sector, is bad news. You could even argue that the bigger the banking sector is, the worse the news is for your economy... Europe is and should be more about democracy than about financial markets. Based with this choice, it was in the end, clear that I had to choose democracy.”

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 7 years ago

You are quite correct to observe that "we do not have excess resources (materials and energy) as in previous times. This factor seems to be largely unrecognized, particularly in the realm of energy. With all the hype about shale gas and oil, and the fantasy about the US becoming "energy independent" few seem to recognize that the excess wealth that has been available in the last couple of centuries has come from cheap energy from fossil fuels. That party is over.

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Spineless Dems must be told to keep SS, Medicare & Medicaid off the chopping block.


[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 7 years ago

support the party

be sure to use words like Demo and Repub, Liberal, conservative , left and right

raise the scepter of the Parties

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Parties suck! End the duopoly!!

Hands off the safety net!! No austerity!

ALL pols must be pressured regardless of party.

[-] -3 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

And that is where one must be careful about using the same S/D curves. The graphs are no longer just 2 dimensional. Now maybe if we get it right, the use of a sustainable energy source could be the next real adjustment (re: benefit) we get as both a productivity curve change, and as a cost curve change. But the resources issue will never go away. We will need to find better utility in materials with recycling, less one time use, etc. There will be an impact to end the "throw away" mentality, both in cost and in possibly jobs, but it will be worth it in the long term. It will be interesting to see how we accomplish that.

[-] -1 points by DSamms (-294) 7 years ago

"I would like to see policies which make it desirable for the companies with money to start investing again. That money is already there, just not in circulation as it could be. It circulates in the monetary markets, not in the public market where it is needed for real stimulation."

Welcome to Financial Capitalism, as distinct from, but also related to, Monopoly Capitalism (by way of mergers and acquisitions by financial holding companies) which gave it rise.

This is the difference between "productive" and "financial" investment and is one of the primary challenges we face (speaking both economically and politically). Why should I invest in a productive enterprise (anything which provides non-financial goods and services) when I can get a potentially (much) greater return faster and with less effort by simply betting on "the market"? What you are talking about is regulation of financial markets to discourage speculation, and the periodic "bubbles" which are created as a result of that speculation. Reinstating Glass-Stegal would be a good first step in my opinion.

Question is, who owns our national debt? Do our creditors have anything to say about our monetary and economic policies?


But none of these issues will be addressed until we gain control of the political system. There is no such thing as a "free market". All markets are politically controlled, to a greater or lesser degree.

"Wealth and Democracy: A Political History of the American Rich" (2002) ISBN 0-7679-0533-4

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Re. "Wealth and Democracy : A Political History of the American Rich", by Kevin Phillips - thanx for the interesting recommendation & I append the following for our information :

multum in parvo ...

[+] -4 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

good points in your response to me and also to shadz above. Have not looked at the link yet. And yes, politics has infiltrated / influenced the markets, as others have infiltrated / influenced politics. Removal of the influence into politics should result in the removal of politics from the markets. The creditors may eventually attempt to have a say in monetary policy, but only of things get real bad first, and they become threatened with real default.

[-] -2 points by DSamms (-294) 7 years ago

There is no such thing as a "free market". All markets are politically controlled, to a greater or lesser degree.


[-] -2 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

Yes, we will always have (or need) regulatory agency and requirements, but some of this is required when the market or market makers are not open, honest and fair (human nature always seems to get in the way).

[-] -2 points by auargent (-600) 7 years ago

how does spending money you have help the economy? you cant keep raising taxes, after a short while, there is no more to be had from the taxpayers,

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

The top 2% are hoarding trillions. Big corps also hoarding trillions.

They need to pay their fair share. They will still be the wealthiest people on earth. And taxing them will therefore not hurt the economic growth.

We must get money back to the middle/working class because they do not hoard it. They spend it, and therefore increase economic growth.

[-] -1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 7 years ago

and those not working middle class ?

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Get 'em working. Obviously.

[-] -1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 7 years ago

send 'em to the frack mines

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Not my 1st preference but if there are mines certainly the unemployed should be considered.

[-] -1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 7 years ago

everyone must work because the product is not important

only that they are working

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

If you say so.

[-] -1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 7 years ago

one cannot eat unless given money to work by someone that has money

I feel like cutting my throat

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Well I assure you cutting your throat is no answer. We would miss your valuable contributions here at least.

Things WILL get better.

[-] -1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 7 years ago

been scrapping all my life

things haven't gotten better

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Do not give up. Things can improve. You must find a way. You CAN find a way.

[-] -1 points by penguento (362) 7 years ago

So lessee . . . I've been in the top 2 or 3 percent at some points in my life. Not recently, I started a new business venture with some other folks a while back, and am nowhere near that right now, but I was. And I confess, I was hoarding money. It was called a "retirement fund." I'm near on to 60 years old, and getting tired of working 80 or 90 hours a week making all that money, and I thought it might be nice to cut back some day.

I do believe that you agree with the folks that think that social security ought to be means tested; which means that guys like me, who made all that money, ought not to get it, or ought not to get much (let's just leave aside the fact that I've paid in about 2 mil in taxes over the years, and am one of the few people who will actually pay in more than they get out).

Well great. In your scheme, I don't get social security because I made too much, and you want to take all the money I "hoarded" for my retirement. What the fuck do you expect me to live on when I can't work 80 hours a week? Or do I deserve to starve because I was willing to work 80 hours a week to make some honest money?

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

I never said take "ALL your money". (don't even know you) or all anyones money, so that is you creating a straw man (false argument), orat worst that is you outright lying.

And I never said you should not get SS if you've "made too much", I, never mentioned SS at all. So that is you again creating a straw man, to knock down easily, or at worst again blatantly lying.

If you must know I believe if you have millions of follars at retirement you should not need it and forgo the SS income. Many decent American elderly wealthy already do that.

So if you can stick with the truth perhaps I will entertain additional discussion, if you only have lies then whats the point.?


[-] 0 points by GypsyKing (8708) 7 years ago

Tr@shy, talking to itself . . . Again!

[-] -1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 7 years ago

Neither one of them is Trashy. penguento, if I recall, is a retired politician. And if you see this post (assuming you haven't already), well, it doesn't sound like Mr. T at all:


[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Tax the rich! Get our $$ back!


End corp welfare!!

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Repeal the sequester!!! No Austerity!!


[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 7 years ago

Rats Live On No Evil Star.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 7 years ago

I must humbly admit, you lost me GK. I don't get it.


[-] 0 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

Would you say it's healthy for a body to have all of it's resources diverted to the head? Or is it better to have blood flow through the lower limbs as well?

We're not talking about your personal retirement, but the economic health of an entire country. When the lower limbs are deprived of their basic supply of nourishment, a collapse is imminent. Once the legs go, the head follows.

[-] -1 points by penguento (362) 7 years ago

Seems to me like your answer begs the question. What do you do about me? The macro answer necessarily involves many people like me, You can't just pretend like that's not so.

[-] 0 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

The many people like you are just a few percent of this country's population. In order for them to maintain a high standard of living, is it fair to deprive others a reasonable one?

[-] -1 points by penguento (362) 7 years ago

Whom have I deprived of what? I earned everything I made with my own labor. Am I not entitled to the fruit of my own hard work? Is it wrong to profit from your own effort?

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago

Judging by the great disparity in income, the lower 90% have been denied the fruit of their own labor for the past 40 years.


The upper 10%, and especially the upper 1% haven't made their money solely by hard work, but also by trading their hour of labor for one hundred of the lower 90%'s.

[-] -3 points by auargent (-600) 7 years ago

hoarding? whats wrong with people keeping their own money? they already pay their " fair share", another p.c. phrase for redistribution.

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

We gotta have a growing economy so that everyone has an opportunity to have a decent life.

If they wanna sit on the wealth they got from the middle/working class we will have to introduce a wealth tax.

That'll motivate them to start investing (in job creating activities, (not crdefault swaps) in America (not china)),

[-] -1 points by auargent (-600) 7 years ago

everyone does have the opportunity, if they have drive and ambition.

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago


[-] -1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 7 years ago


So 90% of the people don't have the drive or ambition?

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 7 years ago

Trollin trollin trollin

And your ego's swollen

Keep them untruths rolling

[-] -2 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 7 years ago

Your statement is not true at this time.


[-] -2 points by cJessgo (729) from Port Jervis, PA 7 years ago

Perhaps we may entertain the strange idea of corporations like GE for example pay some sort of income tax.You know instead of their normal NONE!

[-] -3 points by auargent (-600) 7 years ago

immelt, head of ge, major obama money bundler and was the on the recently defunct obama jobs council

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Austerity/cuts don't work!


Europe is learning after 4 years.

WE must stimulate the economy.

[-] -1 points by cJessgo (729) from Port Jervis, PA 7 years ago

I have no doubt.Obama is not the liberal he paints himself as.None of them are what they try to project.I always heard what a liberal Clinton was.The numbers paint a very conservative picture.And let us not forget the grand boob of them all W Bush.Never seen another persons dollar he did not want to spend or give away.Such is life in a phoney system set up by and for elites.

[-] 4 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Clinton was obviously a blue dog Dem. Pres Obama has always seemed like a moderate to me. His recent speeches have seemed more liberal but he'll never get too much liberal policy through the right wing House so it would appear to be mainly talk.

Maybe if 'we the people' pressure all politicians to pass liberal policy we could finally resolve some of the problems we face, and takethe govt away from "the elites".

[-] -1 points by cJessgo (729) from Port Jervis, PA 7 years ago

I do not think they are too concerned with public pressure.The bank bailouts drove that point home very clearly. The country is fractured just as the elites wish it to be. The only hope is total solidarity of the populace against capatalism. And I do not see this coming about any time soon. Better to spend our time working in the communities,organizing.and building a strong base rather than looking to our represenatives for leadership.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Yeah those representatives are all bought off and useless. Better to just ignore them and start at the community level.

I'm with you. Go city council!!

[-] 0 points by cJessgo (729) from Port Jervis, PA 7 years ago

Start your own city conunsil.that way you cut out the middle men.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Good idea. I'll get started tomorrow. That sounds valuable and productive.

Have you started your yet?

[-] -3 points by derain (-178) 7 years ago

the problem is obama and his owners.

[-] 4 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Damn them! What are we gonna do now?

[-] -3 points by derain (-178) 7 years ago

You will continue on with your mental masturbation.

[+] -4 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

Blue Dog Dem = Globalist Maniac.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Pressure ALL pols to close tax loopholes for the rich instead of cutting job creating pgms that serve the 99%.


Please sign.

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Is that from the OTP dictionary? LOL

Thanx for the creative name calling you never disappoint.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Let's join together to tell that faux liberal (I always thought he was moderate) and ALL pols to close loopholes on the wealthy and NOT cut job creating pgms that serve the 99%.


Please sign

[+] -4 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

Austerity without addressing teh monetary problems is idiotic, go ask Europe.

No austerity and thinking the monetary problems will magically reverse is idiotic too. go ask the USA.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

2023 is the target date. Come back with something that is actually real.

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago
[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Apparently you are against doing anything except and until we deal with your pet issue.

Monetary policy! Qe3! End the Fed. Are you a RonPaulian?

Ok. What exactly are you proposing regarding the Fed, QE, monetary policy debacle.?

[+] -4 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

Im for solving the issue that caused the collapse- an out of control wall st/fed/banking cartel.

That cause goes across all political parties.

Glad to see you think OWS is a pet issue.

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

I'm with you. We MUST deal with the corrupt wall st criminals.

What exactly are you proposing we do about the FED, QE, Monetary policy.?

Are you proposing anything? Do you have any idea whatyou are talking about?

[+] -6 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

Well, voting for those who dont support it would be a good start, but clearly the public isnt interested in that.

Raising awareness could change it, so Occupy was good on that.

And no offense, Vkag, but a few of us here can run circles around you on this shit.

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Voting? Election is over. We gotta wait 2 years before we do anything?

Raising awareness is great. We're doing that all the time. Ofcourse we're actually working on many things while we raise awareness on the crimes of wall st.

You think you could join in the battles? Or would you rather tell us we are idiots, that it is a waste of time, and you can run circles.?

I agree with the importance of the monetary issue. I agree voting might improve that (but only if we change election/campaign laws to create fair access for 3rd parties)

But mostly I know that we can't wait for elections, we can't expect politicians to do anything for us. and we can't stop fighting for all the issues that matter to the working/middle class.

I just can't agree that we should do nothing except deal with monetary policy.

Especially since you offer no action/proposal to address monetary policy. Voting and raising awareness is an inadequate plan.

Seems more like a slow walk than running circles.

C'mon!!!!! What do you propose we DO to fix monetary policy.!!! I know you know this issue inside and out. How do we fix it?

[+] -5 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

Defund the Fed, move monetary policy to the treasury, make all finance appointments democratically elected by the people, defund any banks whom lobbyists have been previously involved with the FEd, thus propelingl the small banks to more positions of power and restoring a balance that is needed in any group., d have failed. Without the constant bailouts, they will STILL fail.

After t Basically, let things go how they are suppose to go. Those banks should fail, and still will without the constant bailouts, recreate in a horizontal manner that puts the power of the money into the people's hands through elected officials, which is only capable if the people are interested in being involved to begin with , and at this point they just arent.

Remove the dollar from reserve standing in the planet, get us the hell out of everyone else finances.

"I agree with the importance of the monetary issue. I agree voting might improve that (but only if we change election/campaign laws to create fair access for 3rd parties)"

They both depend on the same thing- an intelligent engaged population. With that, anything is possible. Without it, probably not. .

We hit the streets hard about the bailouts. They are still happening, and all the main power players in DC are still in control. Its going to take a hell of a lot more than just Occupy for any kind of decent change.

The people usually dont realize they had the power, until after everythingn has fallen apart.

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Alright. can we do any of that.? My experience has seen occupy sandy, strikethedebt, union support, protests on many things, but none of the specific proposals you mentioned.

I checked the Occupytampa (are you the official spokesman) website but they are focused on renting on Aarons walk some walmart worker stuff and there was an arrest issue I recall a couple of months ago.

They don't seem to be pushing your proposals. Are any occupies or offshoots working on this?. We have many working groups in NYC, The CU issue is big, the rent strike issue in sunset park, strikes at verizon, christies, walmart, fast food, carwashes, etc, environment

Many many important issues but nothing on your monetary issue.

I'm with you it is important. I don't agree we must stop everything else until that issue is resolved.

How do you propose we go about getting any of your ideas implemented.?

You know the issue so well. I'm sure you have a plan. Otherwise you would just be using this impossible issue to convince inaction on anything else.

You wouldn't do that. Because you are a true Occupier. Right.?

[-] -3 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

Pretty much most occupy pages are dead at this point, this one included.

Apparently you werent in with the crowds at the beginning. End the Fed signs everywhere, Fawkes masks, etc. Why do you think they broke us up, because of our "union support"...

Man, you must have missed almost all the good stuff:


Occupy Wall Street. When it was about corruption, bought out congress and the banks, and was bringing people of all persuasions out by the hundreds, that was the shit.

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

I was in Zuccotti at the very beginning. I didn't miss a thing. Been to meetings early on, and confronted police.

That was then. We still wanna break up the banks, Many still wanna end the fed. Our progress continues. Our goals remain. We are smart enough to know that TPTB are so powerful that the biggest things (end the fed, bank breakup) as you say will come only when enough people are educated (again as YOU said).

We work yet still on these goals, and in the meantime fight for every scrap of progress that brings us a little closer, another educated supporter, up another rung.

Our goals have not changed, much has, occupations have ended but we are stronger today than we've ever been. We are doing more and helping more of the 99%.

And every effort brings us closer to the big changes that created the outrage in us 17 months ago.

[+] -4 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

You do what you do, and Ill do what I do. Addressing shortcoming isnt negative, its necessary.

Just remember, actions are different than blog posts. Different mediums, and different approaches are needed.

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

" Addressing shortcoming isnt negative," What about calling people idiots (and other names) is that also necessary?

[-] -2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

If you arent pissed off, you arent ready for change. You will get there eventually. Most Americans will get there eventually.

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Who says I'm not pissed off? You??? When did you become MY spokesperson.?

Just because I don't engage in self defeating, disruptive, useless verbal violence does not mean I am not pissed.

Give it up. Stop trying to get into my personal feelings. We are different. We use different tactics. You seem to prefer the disruptive path, I prefer the respectful path.

You do what you do, I'll do what I do. I wise man said that recently.

Better we not interact, don't you think? Just too different in our methods I think.


[-] -2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

Calling someone who wants austerity, without addressing the issues that led to a massive amount of welfare, an idiot is appropriate (Europe)

Calling someone who doesnt want any austerity, and refuses to address the situation that has led to that point, an idiot, is appropriate (America).

These are stupid people running these things. They should be labeled as such.

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Disruptive, useless, argumentative, does not encourage understanding or compromise, Only creates anger, resentment, and further pushes the sides apart.

Discussing this obviousness with you is equally useless. Your justification for this self defeating verbal violence is weak and unimpressive.

As you've said you do as you do. I'm not telling you what to do. Just offering respectful alternative to the verbal violence you are defending.

[+] -6 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

Thats only a few of the options to radically shake it up. Ive heard people with all sorts of different ideas. Until people realize that every economic, and the majority of social problems, are all part of a grander scheme that is led by the planners, then theres no hope really. Globalizatino is a bitch, and if we dont smarten up and get going with some really really really big things, this place will go from the place people want to go to make something, to the biggest corporate shithole the planet has ever seen (if we arent already there).

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

I ain't so defeatist and apocalyptic.

I ain't given up yet. In fact I am positive we have begun to change things for the better. I know that we are at the beginning of a progressive move left.

We have changed the national dialogue, we have empowered many progressive groups, we are building a great center/left coalition that WILL address the corrupt criminal banking system.

I agree until enough people are made aware we will not be able to implement the biggest things. But we WILL educate enough eventually. It will take years of hard work, patience, and we will have to embrace and build on all small victories, expect slow progress, and difficult setbacks.

While we are fighting to educate enough people we will also push any changes that can improve the lives of the working/middle class, and that empowers people and/or diminishes the corp 1% plutocrats power.

Don't give up, have faith! Don't bring us down. You are an impediment for reaching your stated goal when you bring us down. Don't tell us why we can't do this, or we are idiots if we do that, or we are wasting our time if we don't do what you want.

That is not helpful. You will not create support for you monetary proposals. Join with us in our battles and you will surely gain support for yours.

Solidarity. Really, solidarity man. I am not your enemy, don't be mine.

[+] -4 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

Theres a time and a place for rah rah shit, like during protests or marches or what not.

This is a place for thought. And honestly, theres only about 20 of us on here now so its kind of pissing in the wind.

[-] 2 points by alldone (32) 7 years ago

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead.

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

more negativity. I do not share your defeatism. Have it your way. Wallow if you prefer. I see real progress on the street in the real world. This forum is just a great place to file away all the important data that we support.

All the great efforts being made. A great place to find others who agree, or the occasional new user who can be educated.

You did say we needed to educate more people.

Maybe you didn't really mean that? Do you educate people outside of this forum (that you denigrate)? And do you insult and put down people in your education efforts outside the forum like you do here?


[+] -6 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

Obviously in the streets and going door to door is a different method than blog posts. Blog posts are meant to get people to think, about all sorts of things on all sorts of levels. Thats what this forum is.

Like I said, theres more than enough rah rah nonsense going on. A dose of reality is needed from time to time. If you take it as negative, then perhaps you arent as well versed in teh trials and tribulations of organizing and whatnot.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

"rah rah nonsense"? So not only are you filled with, and spew nastiness and bile, you also attack positiveness.

Well guess what nasty boy positiveness is reality.

"dose of reality is needed"? Your nastiness is not reality, just gratuitous offensive, insults designed to discourage useful actiism.

"if you take it negative"? LOL, calling people idiots (& other names) putting down peoples efforts as "waste of time", is somehow not negative? Doublespeak much?

So are you saying your negative insults are needed reality, or are you saying they aren't negative?

I'm done with this silliness. You choose whatever tactic you think will garner the most support for your causes.

I believe to my core (as occupy states) that we must embrace all non violent tactics. Your offensive, insults are verbal violence.

Good luck

[+] -6 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

You do what you do. I do what I do.

Just remember, actions are actions. Blog posts are blog posts. Theres a difference in the two, on many levels.

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Wow. That is deep and profound.

"actions are actions, Blog posts are blog posts"

That needs to be on a T shirt man.


[+] -4 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

Thats only a few of the options to radically shake it up. Ive heard people with all sorts of different ideas.

Until people realize that every economic, and the majority of social problems, are all part of a grander scheme that is led by the planners, then theres no hope really.

Globalizatino is a bitch, and if we dont smarten up and get going with some really really really big things, this place will go from the place people want to go to make something, to the biggest corporate shithole the planet has ever seen (if we arent already there).

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

It's class war!!


Gotta call it what it is!

No Cuts!!! No Austerity!! More investments in education!!


[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Austerics give an inch.


We gotta take a mile.

No cuts. tax the rich!

[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago


[-] -2 points by auargent (-600) 7 years ago

the deficit has been cut???????????? please explain why it growing.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

It is NOT growing. It is shrinking. Didn't you read the article?. Here is some more data/articles.

2013 non partisan est of 2013 budget deficit is $840B,

The Last Bush Deficit we inherited was $1.4T

Deficit cut by almost $600B per year.


And there is more good news....


Unless you are republican and want to continue spewing the fallacy that Pres Obama is spending too. Then this good news is bad news.

This Admin is spending less than any inrecent history, and has succeeded in cutting Bushes $1.4T by 40% during the repub created great recession even while Congressional repubs have treasonously obstructed every effort to strengthen the recovery.

Whatta ya think of that.?

[-] -2 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

Unless we are having surplus, the deficit is growing. There is a difference between reducing the rate of growth and the reduction of the actual deficit. So please do not declare the deficit is shrinking when it is not.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

The annual deficit is shrinking. Thank you very much.

Bushs last annual deficit he left us was $1.4T for 2009.

The non partisan est of annual deficit is $845B for 2013.

So if you do math then you have to say it has been reduced! Can you say it has increased? Nope! Can you say it is the same? Nope!

[+] -4 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

VQ. You stated that "the deficit has been cut". You were not specific about annual deficit. The annual deficit has been reduced, but not the total. When one speaks of the "deficit", it usually is not referring to the annual number. Why the rant? You answered twice to the same response in two totally different tones. Why the nastiness. I see you have not changed much since your little break. and your cute little remark just confirms your uncivil, partisan tone continues. Why is that? Is there more than one of you again?

[-] 4 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

The annual deficit is added to and so part of the national debt. But stating deficit NEVER means national debt.

Stating deficit means the annual deficit. I believe I've been clear and respectful. I am stating facts that are not related to partisan politics. the numbers don't lie and they are what they are.

So let me reiterate the facts! The deficit (annual) has been cut by almost $600B.

Your personal comments are simply a distraction indicative of your inability to discuss the issue at hand.

[+] -4 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

Ok, so we were referring to a word but had some different meanings. But what is with the statement "....personal comments????" Do you read what you write? You were the one using the snide remarks, not me, I only asked you why you are acting in such a manner.

[-] 5 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

the 'deficit' has ONE meaning. I am not being snide so I can't answer your question.

[-] -2 points by derain (-178) 7 years ago

this person ( the old vqkag2) never reads, just types, and the spittle flies all over.

[+] -4 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

He has not changed at all. Can be somewhat impossible to discuss anything with. He has returned as the same Obama shrill as before. But now he adds "we" to everything.

[-] -3 points by derain (-178) 7 years ago

he was sent away for reprogramming,..........didnt work

[+] -5 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

I like your humor!

[-] -3 points by derain (-178) 7 years ago

programmed ows shills are not capable of critical thinking,.......they can only post talking points.

[+] -5 points by VQkag1 (-112) 7 years ago

Are you a replublican? You don't support progressive solutions? Solutions for the 99%?

[+] -5 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

Are we labeling now? If you are who your name says, you already know the answer to that question. How many names are you operating under now? What happened to #2? Did you violate the rules again and get banned?

[-] -1 points by freakzilla (-161) from Detroit, MI 7 years ago

He has four running on this page alone. Some of them are talking to each other.

[+] -4 points by engineer4 (331) 7 years ago

It is all over this forum: imagine40, repubsrtheproblem, inclusionman, and others. And yes, they are talking to each other, bumping old posts, flooding the forums with useless comments and partisan nonsense.

[+] -5 points by VQkag1 (-112) 7 years ago

People get banned for all kinds of reasons. I always follow the rules.

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Perhaps your confused by the fact that unless you have a surplus, the national DEBT is growing. I agree with that.

Is that what you mean? Do you understand the difference between the national debt, and the annual deficit?

[-] -3 points by auargent (-600) 7 years ago

i think you have been programmed quite well,.............all the dem talking points.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

The numbers don't lie man. You and your right wing talking points are the lies.

You have offered no data to back up your talking points.

Just wait until Obama is done beating the House repubs like an old salvation army drum over thesequester, and the coming budget negotiations.


Obama is gonna cut this annual deficit down to nothing.

Keep talkin man. The truth is the truth

[-] 0 points by freakzilla (-161) from Detroit, MI 7 years ago

He said this in March '09, so he still has a month to go

Defending his budget at a news conference on March 24, President Barack Obama repeated his claim that his plan would cut the deficit in half in five years.

"Both under our estimates and under the CBO estimates, both the most conservative estimates out there, we drive down the deficit over the first five years of our budget," Obama said. "The deficit is cut in half. And folks aren't disputing that."

[-] 5 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Well the deficit was $1.4T when he said that and it would need to cut to $700B. So since it is only estimated to be $840B he still has $140B.

I guess he would have kept that promise if not for republican obstruction in congress.

[-] 0 points by freakzilla (-161) from Detroit, MI 7 years ago

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry christmas. No more excuses.

[-] 5 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

No excuse necessary. Pres Obama cut $560B, The rest will come. When Repubs obstruct, the American people need to know, so we can retire their sorry asses.

[-] 0 points by freakzilla (-161) from Detroit, MI 7 years ago

When you say $560 B are you referring to what the fiscal cliff would have cut? Not sure where you are getting your numbers.

[-] 4 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

The annual deficit that Bush left was $1.4T in 2009, the current non partisan est for 2013 is $850B the difference is $560B which is what Pres Obama has been cut from the annual deficit.

[-] -3 points by auargent (-600) 7 years ago

numbers are manipulated to give the outcome that is sought.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

So where are your manipulated numbers.?

[+] -4 points by auargent (-600) 7 years ago

do you know what a push poll is?

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Sure. Not really related to our discussion but I do indeed know about them.


[-] -1 points by ganya4 (-10) 7 years ago

imagine says..."keep spending ..who cares if we are broke."

Spoken like a true economic ignorant OWS moron. Please tell your banker you refuse to pay your mortgage, or car payment. See how that works out for ya.

Oh wait...I forgot...You morons ride bicycles, and live in your mom's basement. Never-mind.

[-] 2 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

The govt just prints more money idiot. If I coulddo that I wouldn't worry either.

NO CUTS!!! Invest in job creation, raise wages, grow the economy, and tax revenue will increase.

We are in an unemployment crises, any cuts result in lost jobs, slower growth, and less tax revenue.

You fuckin moron!

[-] -1 points by nobnot (529) from Kapaa, HI 7 years ago

Fuck it.

[-] 4 points by inclusionman (7064) 7 years ago

Why? Have you given up?

Are you one of the thousands to be killed by the Ryan budget.?


[-] -1 points by highlander3 (-62) 7 years ago

Cannot afford the safety net that we have. No Welfare State

[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

We can afford it if we get our wealth back from the1% who have stolen it from us by buying the govt & rigging the system against the 99%.

The peoples govt MUST "promote for the general welfare" of the people.

Absolutely we WILL provide for those in need.

[-] -1 points by highlander3 (-62) 7 years ago

very broad, very open-ended, and very wrong. You need to have the 1% on your side, since the 1% pay by far the highest percentage of taxes of any economic bracket. Also, even promoting for the general welfare costs money and must be handled wisely. More bang for the buck and less waste.

[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

We got some 1%'rs who support fair taxes. (honest, fair, non greedy, non selfish ones) and that will grow.

So don't worry. The 1% will come around.


[-] -1 points by fanya9 (-2) 7 years ago

Yea...just keep spending more money that we have. how dare they tell us we are 16 trillion in debt. Just print more money. It's FREEEEEEE.

Yippeee. More FREE stuff for everyone

[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

nothing is free.

[-] -2 points by highlander (-163) 7 years ago

Balancing budgets on the backs of the rich, to submit the logical counterargument, would simply mean the rich would move their money out.

[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

Oh so if they can't play their gonna take their ball and go home?

If the people hoarding all the wealth they took dishonestly from the middle/working class we'll just have to pass laws that allows us to take it back. Or forbids moving American wealth out of the country.

I actually don't think they will, but if they really threaten us, we can deal with it.

[-] -3 points by peacehurricane (293) 7 years ago

It is Washington DC that is costing us and we need to close it down and get to making law in these United States. Sabotage is all that goes on in that other place whatever it was intended it is f-ing us.

[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

Yeah man.

[-] -2 points by peacehurricane (293) 7 years ago

Now how can you help make this so

[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

Beats me. Whats your plan.?

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 7 years ago

Trollin trollin trollin

And your ego's swollen

Keep them untruths rolling ...

[-] -3 points by auargent (-600) 7 years ago

keep giving those obama phones away,so far they have cost the taxpayers over 2 billion $

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

Cuts we've already made.


Face it Repub admins blow up the debt (Reagan, Bush) so they can attempt to justify gutting SS, & Medicare.

Dem Admin cut deficit/debt (Clinton, Obama) cause they are more fiscally responsible.

[-] -3 points by auargent (-600) 7 years ago

in his 4 years in office obama has doubled the debt/defict.

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

LOL. Perhaps you are confused. The annual $1.4T deficit Bush left us is on it's way down. Not doubled like your Tea party talking point, but cut by almost 50%.

The $16T national debt, was $900B when Reagan took office, by the time repubs turned it over to Clinton it was $4.3T!!!!! Repubs Quadrupled it.

When Clinton turned it over to Bush II, Clinton had cut the deficit and created 3 years of annual surpluses, the national debt was $5.6T.

Bush turned the 3 years of annual surpluses to an annual deficit of $1.4T, and left a national debt of $10T. Bush II almost doubled the national debt. And left $1.4T annual deficit that PresObama has cut.

So all the increase in the national debt during the last 4 years came from the annual deficit Bush left us.

Pres Obama would have cut the $1.4T annual deficit faster but treasonous congressional republicans obstructed every Dem proposal to strengthen the recovery.

That is the truth! Face up to it!

[-] -3 points by auargent (-600) 7 years ago

the truth is obama is purposely killing the usa,

[-] 3 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

That is tea party wackiness. Every year that Obama cuts Bushs massive annual deficit strengthens this country.

We are already much stronger than how Bush and his wall st cleptocrats left us.

[-] -3 points by auargent (-600) 7 years ago

you know so much about what you dont know.

[-] 2 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 7 years ago

And you don't. LOL

[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

That's funny. Y'know free phone service for the poor was introduced by Reagan right?

[-] -1 points by auargent (-600) 7 years ago

2 billion in free phones is an obama vote getter.

[-] 2 points by imagine40 (383) 7 years ago

LOL you're ridiculous. 2 billion free phones in a country of 320 million people?

2 billion free phones for 20 million poor people?

What a joke.