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Forum Post: MSNBC: “Is this just have nots against the haves?"

Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 5, 2011, 2:56 p.m. EST by fannneee (20)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

They really want to frame this that we are upset because we are lazy and want things handed to us. This is not haves against have nots. It is about the laws and tax structure all set up in a way to benefit the richest to get richer. People need to wake up and start voting in their own financial and environmental best interest. The “job creators” are not going to create us a job. The corporations will not do the right thing unless they are forced to, their only loyalty is to profit and shareholders. They don't have any loyalty to the US they are global now. They don't need us anymore. You will never be rich. Listen to George Carlin’s “American Dream.” It’s a club you don’t belong to and they don’t give a fuck about you. I know I am preaching to the choir. I try to tell this to everyone I know but they believe faux news. It's so sad.



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[-] 5 points by misterioso (86) 12 years ago

the only thing that matters right now is CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM, unless you get the big money out of politics, no change whatsoever will occur, this should be the focus of the protests, we need to have honest politicians that work for the public before any thing else can get done, campaign finance reform (ending corporate personhood, kicking the lobbyists out of the Washington) is the perfect starting point. It really is a no brainer that this should be the one thing we can all agree on. Because unless we do this, all those other demands that people have will never be addressed, not in a millions years.

[-] 1 points by Mike122333 (102) 12 years ago

OWS should lazer focus on that issue, get a constitutional convention going.

[-] 1 points by ss000kk (7) from Shakopee, MN 12 years ago


[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM's been a platform as long as I can remember

why should it work this time around?

[-] 1 points by misterioso (86) 12 years ago

im not sure it will, we are up against some very powerful people. The only chance we have is if we can get millions of people out in the streets rallying around this cause. Thats why its important to have a clear message that everyone can agree on. Anyone who believes in democracy should want to get money out of politics, obviously the government should not be for sale to the highest bidder, it belongs to the people.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

the people can bid with their time and vigilance

[-] 1 points by misterioso (86) 12 years ago

Yes, EVERYONE should bid with their time and vigilance and NOTHING MORE, that might lead to a system that works for the majority of Americans. Why should some people only get to bid only with time and vigilance while others get to hire full time lobbyists and spend millions to influence public policy, thats not fair, and thats not democratic. This is not a left-right issue, many conservatives and tea party people can get behind this. If you want to end crony-capitalism and have a real free market, you need to get the money out of politics.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

then they will have to hire everyone who doesn't have a job to lobby for them

[-] 1 points by misterioso (86) 12 years ago

What? who will have to hire? this is a grass roots, decentralized movement without any leaders, and I hope it stays that way. I would hate to see it get co-opted by the democrats and the liberal establishment. The tea party was basically corrupted and co-opted by the koch brothers and and establishment republicans. This movement is about using good old participatory democracy to end this money based political system that is corrupt to its core.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago


then the people that control the wealth will have to hire everyone who doesn't have a job to lobby for them

[-] 0 points by DSams (-71) 12 years ago

I agree up to a point -- we need those millions not only on the streets, but in the voting booths as well.

[-] 1 points by ConcernedEconomist (67) 12 years ago

Spot on!

[-] 1 points by tr289 (916) from Chicago, IL 12 years ago

I agree completely.

If we take the money, corporate and special interest influence out of Washington, we can then tackle the tough issues we don't all agree on... And do it with a fair government. One that is truly of the people.

[-] 1 points by WhyIsTheCouchAlwaysWet (316) from Lexington, KY 12 years ago

Hear, hear!

[-] 3 points by powertothepeople (1264) 12 years ago

"Yes, there is class warfare going on and my class is winning" - Warren Buffet

[-] 1 points by Rob (881) 12 years ago

Buffet is a disinigenuous douchebag. He can write a check to the IRS at any time for any amount and they will gladly accept it.

[-] 0 points by FuManchu (619) 12 years ago

He's just trying to help his pals in the democratic party.

[-] 2 points by seaglass (671) from Brigantine, NJ 12 years ago

They the rich and they're endless choir of cheerleaders always cry Class Warfare! when we fight back.

[-] 1 points by frankchurch1 (839) from Jersey City, NJ 12 years ago

Rachel Maddow didn't even mention the movement last night. She is a mere liberal democrat. So boring.

[-] 1 points by gagablogger (207) 12 years ago

There's no one to vote for in our financial and environmental best interest.

[-] 1 points by kilroy (58) from Orlando, FL 12 years ago

The problem is that wall street simply demands profit from corporations. Shareholders only seek capital as return. The system needs to be changed. A PUBLIC corporation should not be beholden to only shareholders but also to STAKEHOLDERS the employees and consumers after all it is a PUBLIC corporation. A Voice and Vote should be required on all PUBLIC corporations to the stakeholders as well as the shareholders.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 12 years ago

when they say all that shit, we need to be armed with this to hit them back hard. this is not about any of that BS. its about a criminal corrupt enterprise secret government which is only make believing capitalism or democracy.




According to a 2008 article by David Rothkopf, the world’s 1,100 richest people have almost twice the assets of the poorest 2.5 billion (Rothkopf, 2008). Aside from the obvious problem – that this global elite has their hands in everything from politics to financial institutions – …





To the extent that we, the people, are removed from control over our lands, marketplaces, central banks, and media we are no longer empowered. In practice, those few who do control the land, central bank, media and "free market" are the real rulers of our corrupt and declining "democracy."

Due to propaganda from a corporate-owned and edited media we are kept from knowing, much less debating, the nature of our system. Due to a central bank owned by bankers, media owned by a few global concerns, and trade regime controlled by global corporations (i.e., one designed to remove the people from control over their markets and environments) the vast majority have become little more than latter-day serfs and neo-slaves upon a corporate latifundia.

To restore a semblance of effective democracy and true freedom Americans, and people around the world, need to re-educate themselves as to the true nature of their political and economic systems. Toward this end, OligarchyUSA.com is dedicated to providing old and new information, books, links, reform ideas and debates not easily found or accessed today in establishment media.

OligarchyUSA.com is but one more site and sign of the times as ground-up counter-revolutions arise around the world... all in response to a forced and freedomless globalization courtesy of a ruling global elite perfecting their top-down plutocracy and revolutions of the rich against the poor. In short, democracy is no longer effective today. For this reason, it is toward a restoration of truly effective and representative democracies, and natural freedom, that this site is dedicated.

[-] 1 points by jjrousseau714 (59) 12 years ago

Stiglitz and Krugman know the way

[-] 1 points by jefftheben (4) 12 years ago

This is about who's country this is.

[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 12 years ago

If they weren't trying to frame this, after trying to ignore it, you'd know you weren't having an effect.

Take it as a compliment. And realize that the more of a threat you are to them, the more they will turn up the heat.

You need to tell THEM, "We Don't Need You".


[-] -1 points by SeparationOfCorpandState (81) from Muskegon, MI 12 years ago

WE HAVE A COMMONALITY: The Fair Tax. it address many of the same concerns listed in this list of demands. Please become familiar with this movement that need a new spark of life that has been going against the establishment.

It address all the following:

  1. Abolishes the IRS
  2. Closes all loopholes and brings fairness to taxation
  3. Enables workers to keep their entire paychecks
  4. Enables retirees to keep their entire pensions
  5. Refunds in advance the tax on purchases of basic necessities
  6. Allows American products to compete fairly
  7. Brings transparency and accountability to tax policy
  8. Ensures Social Security and Medicare funding

What is the FairTax Plan? The FairTax Plan is a comprehensive proposal that replaces all federal income and payroll based taxes with an integrated approach including a progressive national retail sales tax, a prebate to ensure no American pays federal taxes on spending up to the poverty level, dollar-for-dollar federal revenue replacement, and, through companion legislation, the repeal of the 16th Amendment. This nonpartisan legislation (HR 25/S 1025) abolishes all federal personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self-employment taxes and replaces them with one simple, visible, federal retail sales tax – administered primarily by existing state sales tax authorities. The IRS is disbanded and defunded. The FairTax taxes us only on what we choose to spend on new goods or services, not on what we earn. The FairTax is a fair, efficient, transparent, and intelligent solution to the frustration and inequity of our current tax system.

What is Americans For Fair Taxation (FairTax.org)? FairTax.org is a nonprofit, nonpartisan, grassroots organization solely dedicated to replacing the current tax system. The organization has hundreds of thousands of members and volunteers nationwide. Its plan supports sound economic research, education of citizens and community leaders, and grassroots mobilization efforts. For more information visit the Web page: www.FairTax.org or call 1-800-FAIRTAX.

[-] 1 points by looselyhuman (3117) 12 years ago

All sales taxes are regressive. Low income earners spend 100% of their income on purchasing necessities (therefore high taxable income). High income earners spend a much lower percent, and are therefore taxed far less.

The IRS is complicated because a.) it's full of loopholes that should be abolished, and b.) a progressive tax code, while necessary and fair, is somewhat complicated.

[-] 1 points by SeparationOfCorpandState (81) from Muskegon, MI 12 years ago

Thanks for your reply. Under the Fair Tax proposal. The low income earners (as well as everyone else) will not pay sales tax on necessities up to the current Government levels of poverty. This is fair. The higher your income the more you will buy more higher priced items that are taxed at the same rate as everyone else. This is fair, easier, less loopholes, No IRS, No filing tax returns, No audit, No income tax, and no corporate tax. This is a FAIR TAX. I challenge your to name something in the proposal that is not fair. If you have any other concern or questions. let me know and I'll try to address them asap.
Learn more at the web site. It is far better for all than our current system and will cost us less to maintain and govern.

[-] 1 points by jab714 (13) 12 years ago

The Fair Tax Act (H.R. 25/S. 1025) is a bill in the United States Congress for changing tax laws to replace the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and all federal income taxes (including Alternative Minimum Tax), payroll taxes (including Social Security and Medicare taxes), corporate taxes, capital gains taxes, gift taxes, and estate taxes with a national retail sales tax, to be levied once at the point of purchase on all new goods and services. The proposal also calls for a monthly payment to households of citizens and legal resident aliens (based on family size) as an advance rebate of tax on purchases up to the poverty level.

Those who have millions upon millions of dollars will not spend that money on goods, and why shouldn't it be taxed? Furthermore, this would obviously stagger spending. If income taxes go away, the sales tax will be MUCH higher for most individuals. Can you imagine paying a 20+ percent tax on say a television set or food? Overall, it is clearly a regressive system. You will literally be taxed like hell on food and goods if you spend over 10,000 dollars (slightly higher for a family) in a year. You will literally only benefit if you make over 200,000 dollars a year. Just another way to shift tax burdens from corporations and rich individuals to the lower classes.

Stats don't lie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NRST-percentile.png

[-] 1 points by SeparationOfCorpandState (81) from Muskegon, MI 12 years ago

Stats do lie. It depend on where the stats come from and the information that they were drawn on.

Also, a misconception is that corporations pay taxes. Wrong! People pay taxes. Corporation are required to pay taxes, BUT those taxes are just passed on to the cost of those good and services they sell to the consumer. Therefore, people pay taxes and no one else......Don't let anyone mislead you on that point.

Regarding the graph I see very little difference. With the Fair Tax we all pay the same percent on money spent on goods and service. If the wealthy don't use all there money to by these goods and services what do you think happens to all that money the Millionaires, and/or Billionaires don't spend? They donate it, someone inherits it, or whatever, it gets invested back into the system and eventuality it gets spent and taxes are collected. Besides the Fair Tax is much easier to understand. What is the reason for making Taxes so difficult to understand, control, collect, and follow? With the Fair Tax there are Less loopholes for the wealthy and it will create the same revenues as the current system. Just think of all those that are not paying taxes on income they don't claim. Those that are taking advantage of the system and taking of loopholes such as earned income credit and child tax credit. There are so many ways to avoid taxes that if you don't know the tax codes and laws that change annually you lose all the deduction from your taxes. So you need to hire a tax consultant to know the law and what is currently the law. There is a credit for student loans that if you make to much money you don't get to deduct your interest you pay on those loans. That's not much of an incentive to increase your income or get a job, is it? There is no incentives in the current tax system to earn more. Just incentive to evade taxes and go on welfare. Under the Fair Tax proposal everyone pays the same as the rest of us, even the gamblers, drug dealers, off shore wealth, and etc.

I'm sure the wealthy spend much more on goods and services than you and I and therefore will pay more. They're more likely to buy a new home, car, and etc than you or I. They will pay tax of about 24 to 26%. I have the choice to by a new or used home or car. If I choose used. I don't pay a sales tax. This percentage of tax is much less than most of the other countries in the world are paying to support their Governments. I've worked for 39 years paying income tax, sales tax. property tax, S.S. tax, Medicare tax, City tax, and State tax. I'm sure there is taxes paid I don't even know about, but the Fair tax has to be simpler and easier to understood than the current system. What's better, I can understand it. The rest is Bull shit and just a way to get money under the table, cover-up, and confuses the people that pay taxes, where the Money is coming, and were it is going.

What was you question anyway? I hope I've answered it.

[-] 1 points by distortion (196) 12 years ago

i've been toying around with the idea of this, it somewhat sounds like a good idea, but my question is, what stop people from just purchasing foreign goods at lower tax rates thus bankrupting our economy.

[-] -2 points by MikeInOhio (13) 12 years ago

What is more sad, in my opinion, is a bunch of people marching around Wall St who actually believe this nonsense. You don't think it's about class warfare? Of course it is. I'm certainly not rich, but I'm smart enough to realize that my relatively scarce resources are not the result of some Wall St. conspiracy. Finding scapegoats is much easier than assuming the personal responsibility for one's own failings.

[-] 1 points by seaglass (671) from Brigantine, NJ 12 years ago

Your not that smart dude. What do u think happened back in 2008? Was it all of our faults that Wall st. gambled away whole generations life savings on open swindles like CDO's backed by bad mortgages rated AAA by corrupt ratings agencies etc. You sound like Rick Santelli that day whining about losers. STFU! You guys in the Tea party have had your 15 mins. Its the rest of our turn!

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 12 years ago

Thanks, dude! What happened in 2008 was the result of Barney Frank, Maxine Waters, etc. fighting reform of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. They were handing out home loans like they were candy, if you will recall, because EVERYONE qualified. (As I recall, Barney Frank called it "class warfare" when republicans asked for stricter underwriting standards). This caused the real estate bubble. It's really not that complicated, dude.

[-] 1 points by seaglass (671) from Brigantine, NJ 12 years ago

No its not. Then the banks packaged ( CDO etc.) and sold these "bad" mortgages with AAA ratings from the corrupted rating agencies. It was the whole corrupt Corporatist crowd that caused it. I never said, the D's didn't help out did I?

[-] 1 points by bleedingsoul (134) from Youngstown, OH 12 years ago

Mike, Actually, in the Fall of 2004 the FBI was already announcing to the public about Mortgage Fraud. So I do question the financial institutes for not taking this into consideration a long time before the bubble bursting in 2008. But it sounds like you're still using Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as scapegoats...just like the banks did.

[-] 2 points by seaglass (671) from Brigantine, NJ 12 years ago

Standard GOP talking pt. Blame the victims is one of their favorite party games.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 12 years ago

Sorry for the long delay in responding. I like your questioning.

But Fannie and Freddie were, in my opinion, the root cause of the bubble. I hate sending links, so I won't do it. Our asset bubble was caused by faulty underwriting of loans prescribed by these two organizations.

[-] 1 points by bleedingsoul (134) from Youngstown, OH 12 years ago

Welcome back Mike. Just popped on and saw you reply.

Seriously believe financial marketing knew this wave was crashing not just from the September, 2004 FBI Investigation but also 13 months later (That's October, 2005), the new bankruptcy laws became law. These new laws protect more for the banks, not the people. Now, flash forward 2 1/2 years the we have the economic crash. Ironic?....I think not.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 12 years ago

I admit, the bankruptcy law-timing was interesting. I have a friend who is a bankruptcy attorney and he said it was brewing for some time. The change in the law certainly hasn't helped me, by the way

I just don't see conspiracies; they are too difficult to carry out.

[-] 1 points by fannneee (20) 12 years ago

Repug troll talking points. Mike, you are not for this movement so quit wasting our time and go talk your shit on a repug site. Typical right wing idiot enjoying stirring shit for the fun of it. creep

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 12 years ago

Thank you for the kind words and open mind. You are going places in life!

[-] 1 points by chigrl (94) 12 years ago

Thanks for trying to kill em with kindness Mike. Every time I attempt to question someones way of thinking on this site I am met with nothing but incoherent swearing and rambling. Maybe eventually they will understand that real debate requires rational thought.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 12 years ago

Thanks, chigrl. Yes, the name-calling gets old, but those aren't the ones we can do anything about. I've found that there are quite a few open-minded liberals here and I'd rather try to engage them in debate.


[-] 1 points by fannneee (20) 12 years ago

I have an open mind, I am mostly kind and I am working at going places in life. But I do recognize you and your ilk and call it as I see it.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 12 years ago

Just curious, what is my "ilk"? You are mostly kind? I guess that only applies to people who agree with you. Repug troll, creep, talking shit, those are all lovely sentiments.

[-] 1 points by fannneee (20) 12 years ago

Lovely and deserving. Put on your big boy undies Mike. If you've survived in this big bad tough world up to now what I have said here is nothing really. Your ilk? People that aren't smart enough to do thier homework so they get thier talking points from fox news.

[-] 1 points by BJS3D (95) from Eugene, OR 12 years ago

With all due respect, I think you should do a little research into how the government, in conjunction with Wall Street, caused our current economic crisis... starting with 2006, 2 years before the housing collapse.

I'm not going to argue the point of class war, not because I agree or disagree but because it's a point of debate based on perception that cannot be simply swayed. However, it's a matter of a system that protects the top 1% at the expense of the lower 99% that's in question. Your research will enlighten you to the magnitude of that last statement.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 12 years ago

Thanks, BJ. I touched on Fannie and Freddie in the above post.

[-] 1 points by BJS3D (95) from Eugene, OR 12 years ago

I understand how you can confuse these marches as being some sort of blame game. Certainly, it looks like the vast majority of 'us' are seeking some retribution for having lost something in all of this. Still, you'd have to ask yourself how regulating corporate lobbying would grant the average citizen even a remote sense of gaining retribution. Where's the connection?

The housing market tumble is just one aspect of a greater issue: financial irresponsibility. On one hand, you have the average citizen with a mortgage, which is the accepted norm en route to the American Dream, and, on the other hand, you have the federal gov printing money without backing, spending money it doesn't have, borrowing money to cover it all and an entire country of citizens, who's faith is in the federal government to regulate financial matters, taking the brunt of the fallout.

No, this is about Wall Street bailouts with tax-payer dollars and a list of other shady practices that need to be amended. By all means, though, call it what you will.

[-] 1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 12 years ago


I agree with you. I have no use for corporate lobbying either. I can also assure you that I did not support the banking bailout- I would have preferred that the bad banks fail. I also would have preferred an orderly bankruptcy of GM, rather than turning the company over to the UAW at the expense of bondholders. I also don't like the fact that Wall St. firms hold so much sway in the federal government, but the Democrats are at least as guilty as the Republicans in this regard. Unfortunately I hear no voices of reason from this movement, only voices of retribution.

[-] 1 points by BJS3D (95) from Eugene, OR 12 years ago

In all honesty, I think we're on the same page. There's fanatics here, as in every just movement, and there are those with fanatical views seemingly making the most noise.

Predominately, there's no true scapegoat beyond Congress. Wall Street merely exploits a system that's been firmly implemented by politics to ensure the stability of politics. Hand shakes in back alleys, suspicious proposals alongside the just on bills... all favors to gain favors that inevitably come as weight to bare by citizens.

I could point fingers at both parties because they have the extraordinary ability to cancel each other out whenever change has to be decided upon... yet both sides are standing ready and in sync to shake a corporate hand or two whenever the topic of "campaign donation" sparks.

The voice of reason is being downplayed by mainstream media at the moment, who are latching onto the fanatics and their 'proposed demands'. All we are striving for is a reconsideration of the legality of corporate influence on legislation, to break the circle of favors that encompass "strings-attached-campaign-donations" and tax-payer-funded corporate bailouts.

edit: btw, that's not so much to strive for, even though it doesn't solve the current state of the economy. It's considering the future with hopes that we may be able to see it come to fruition in our own lifetimes.

[-] 1 points by fannneee (20) 12 years ago

I don't think anyone should be exempt from morals or ethics, not Corporations, Congress or Wall Street. If one was to follow your logic to it's logical conclusion then I think you could say that it is "our" fault because Congress is elected by us and "we" have been lazy and alseep at the wheel. Unlike some people I do think there is a "conspiracy" by the powers that be or the powers that wanna be to have a stupid, easily manipulated electorate. They've accomplished it well. I'm not sure who you are calling a fanatic or which demands you think are wrong but I think what you mention is a good start. I think next revoking corporate personhood and then maybe the tax loopholes then make 'em clean up thier own messes.

[-] 1 points by BJS3D (95) from Eugene, OR 12 years ago

Sadly, it is our fault inevitably. At first, we put too much faith in a corruptible system. Times were good, jobs were plentiful and people just generally don't concern themselves with the slight-of-hand as long as it's not affecting them personally. We gave Congress the reigns and went about our lives in bliss.

Eventually, generations accepted the ideology of the all-powerful federal government and ceased to exercise rights. Congress grew more powerful, corporations recognized and started to buy that power and here we are today.

Now, everyone's feeling the crisis. People are starting to get to know their federal government again... and what they're discovering is the shocking truth that we've been content to turn away from for decades.

As far as any conspiracy, I couldn't begin to speculate. I can say this, though: if I'm telling the story via my multi-billion dollar media network and I had already invested a large sum of money in a particular candidate, I suppose I'd want to tell a biased story to ensure my investment isn't "lost". It isn't called a conspiracy so much as it's called 'politics'. Same difference in most cases.

The 'fanatics' I'm referencing are the one's marching Wall Street and yelling "Give back my house!" and the one's who are seriously entertaining the idea of government overthrow in favor of whatever regime they think will be the ultimate utopian society. This movement has simple, realistic objectives that don't include scrapping a perfectly good government.

But, I agree with you also that there are a lot of issues to address and fix. Shady practices that gamble with tax dollars, injecting mass quantities of cash into the economy that subsequently devalues the dollar, making deals with corporate lobbyists that lead to government-against-the-people-issues... stuff like that.