Forum Post: Move on THIS!!!!!
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 4, 2011, 1:06 p.m. EST by Edpilani
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If we are the 99%, why is no action being demanded against the FEDERAL RESERVE? Scores of people are rallied around this issue and WE should do the same. I support the demands of OWS but the people are waiting to take on the Federal Reserve. We cannot omit this issue from our list of demands. Educate yourself, educate other about this debt based monetary system. .
I think we all are kinda coming to a consensus on corrupt politics, "Bankers" or the 1% and the Military Industrial complex
Go to the general assembly's bring people with you ... What action do you want against the FEDERAL RESERVE ? How should we proceed and what do we want to achieve ? If we remove the federal reserve does something need to replace it does the job go back to congress ? It needs to be broken down ... we all need a clarity, consensus and action plan We need to think it all through carefully
Because eliminating the Federal Reserve at this point would harm 100% of the people.
We might as well burn our homes to protest the mortgage crisis, burn our cash to protest the financial crisis, burn our employers to protest the unemployment crisis, burn our forests to protest the environmental crisis, and then burn our fire stations to protest the ensuing conflagration crisis.
We are not nihilists. We do not believe in tearing down institutions just because we're unhappy with their performance. We are reformers. We believe in holding Wall Street accountable. That means: (1) Tax the rich. (2) Regulate markets. (3) Prosecute white-collar crime.
Our demands are simple, readily comprehensible, and readily achievable. The are popular and they are sensible. They are just and they will be met.
Ending The Fed does not necessarily mean ending the central banking system. It can also mean nationalizing The Fed since it really wouldn't be the same entity after that. If The Fed was nationalized, the government would never have to borrow. There would be no national debt. And in times like these, the Congress could spend a whole lotta cash on infrastructure to get things moving again--with no interest or debt to be paid for by future generations.
Taxes would be turned upside down. Instead of the government collecting taxes to pay for things it would merely create money, spend it into society, and tax money out of the system to ward off inflation.
The way The Fed works now is really behind this economic problem we're in. They encouraged the end of Glass Stegall, the bailouts, etc. and they manipulated markets with private decisions that create the bubbles.
All of that Ron Paul stuff is correct. My problem with Paul is he doesn't seem to want central banking at all. He wants competing currencies and no central banking power. This seems like a path to chaos.
We need the money power in the hands of the people. Fractional reserve lending should be all but eliminated and the spoils from its continued use should go to the Treasury.
The higher the reserve requirements at the banks, the more the government could spend without causing any inflation at all. In fact, there would be times when they HAD to spend money for the sake of liquidity. This would be one of those times.
OK, so you don't want to end the Fed. You want to nationalize the Fed.
But a government seizure of the Fed would certainly rattle the markets now, causing much harm to everyone. And the purported gains to be made by this radical act? Complete nonsense.
You think we could just erase the debt we owe to the Chinese government, banks around the world, and private investors without consequence? There's a word for that: theft. You think the government could just create money at will? There's a word for that: delusion. We might as well invest in R&D to discover the philosopher's stone.
Alchemy and theft have no place in our movement's pursuit of a more just world.
Of course we'd still owe foreign governments and investors. And actually, that debt (which is roughly one half of the total) can be seen as a good thing since it makes others have a stake in the Dollar staying sound.
The Fed creates money at will for the benefit of the banking class. Why not for The People?
And thanks for telling me I don't have a place in your movement.
I didn't say that you don't have a place in our movement. I said that alchemy and theft have no place in our movement. Unless you're a dyed-in-the-wool alchemist or thief, there's hope for you yet!
Unfortunately, you do seem to have some seriously faith-based beliefs about the Federal Reserve. Here's the reality: If the Fed was nationalized, the government would still have to borrow. Just because the government can print dollars doesn't mean that it can create value where there is none. The government does things, it buys things, and that costs money. So long as the government does not collect enough money (primarily by collecting taxes) to meet its costs, it will still have to borrow to fill the budget gap. If the Fed was nationalized, there would still be a national debt. The Federal Reserve holds only 11% of the US debt. If the government seized control of the Federal Reserve, it would still owe 89% of what it currently owes. What's more is that such a move would rattle markets and shake confidence in the US government's credibility, meaning that the US would have to borrow at a far higher rate than it does now. The 11% of "savings" that came from nationalizing the Fed would instantly be restored to the US debt in the form of higher interest rates.
So your claims that nationalizing the Fed would mean that "the government would never have to borrow" and that "there would be no national debt" are simply false. As such, they ought to be discarded. False belief has no place in our movement's pursuit of a more just world. Since your entire case against the Fed is based on your false beliefs about it, this project will not be adopted by the movement to hold Wall Street accountable.
And protesting Wall Street does what? Hurt employees making 40-50k a year and middle and lower class people who have retirement and stock accounts? If you guys want a real revolution you need to redirect your efforts to the root cause and that is the government and fed. We do not live in a democracy. You guys are fools if you think Wall Street is made up of the top 1%.
Protesting Wall Street means nothing more than holding Wall Street accountable. Accountability harms no one.
Our demands are simple. End the Bush tax cuts for the rich. Re-regulate the markets. Prosecute white-collar crime.
The "root problem" is the erosion of accountability and the rule of law. We demand their restoration as the key to a more just world.
OK, but I'm still not understanding protesting Wall Street. Our country is in debt because of endless spending on wars based on lies. We killed the big bad boogie man Osama and we are still occupying and terrorizing foreign countries. Why is nobody protesting and holding the government accountable? After all, our government is what allows the Bush tax cuts, unregulated markets, and white-collar crime to occur. Going after Wall Street is pointless. Go after the real target and everything else will crumble.
The reason to protest Wall Street is that Wall Street is symbolic of the anti-taxation, anti-regulation, anti-accountability forces that have gotten their way for too long.
I agree that the change has to come from Washington: government must raise taxes on the rich, pass and enforce the regulations on the markets, and take white-collar criminals to court.
But to rally our movement to hold Wall Street accountable, we're protesting at Wall Street. Once we have grown our movement and popularized our demands, we expect government to represent us and do what is good for the country.
Doubtful when the majority of Americans want marijuana legalized and that isn't done. What makes you think they will suddenly give us a democracy? You need to attack the government. You think they will simply give into your demands? I'm sure they'd rather send our own troops out to murder you, so better get some militias involved.
I strongly disagree with you there. The government is the best institution we have for protecting the people against the powers of unrestrained markets and unaccountable corporations.
I believe the government will meet our demands because our demands are popular, practical, common sensical, and, most importantly, just. A more accountable Wall Street is in the interest of all.
In fact, every one of these demands has widespread support in both houses of Congress and in the White House. All it would take to get these demands turned into law is some organizing and focusing on getting the job done.
As for your paranoia concerning the possible use of the army against us and your promotion of citizen militias to oppose the US army, I will say this. We here are part of the reality-based community. Utopianism, paranoia, and violence have no place here. We see real problems and we propose real solutions. This is why our demands will be realized.
Good luck, cause here in PA, gas companies are drilling, polluting, and plundering the land (almost all state forests have been leased for drilling). There are more people protesting that than Wall Street and nothing has been done. Our own governor has received millions of dollars in contributions from drilling companies to do away with laws and regulations to let them rape the land. When the corruption is at the government level, there is no way the government is going to reason with silly protestors.
I am sorry to hear that you have such a pessimistic attitude. American history tells a different story.
The workers movement, the civil rights movement, the women's movement, the gay rights movement... all of these have achieved far more radical changes than what we're demanding, and against far more entrenched opposition. As MLK famously said: "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice."
What we're looking to accomplish is readily comprehensible and readily achievable. Our demands are just and they will be met, soon and in our time.
I don't think American history tells a different story. Most of those movements really didn't do much as racism, sexism, and oppression stil widely exist in the open. People are just more accepting and learn to deal with diversity, but the hatred and suffering is far from gone. We have relied on our government too long and all it has done is stripped us of more rights, gotten us into more wars, and more debt. If you can't see that our government has failed us and needs an overhaul, then you are protesting for no reason at all.
This is absurd. If you believe that no movement has ever accomplished anything of value -- a demonstrably false belief which I doubt you even really hold to be true -- then you have no reason to protest, since you wouldn't believe that protests accomplish anything.
Government is the greatest defender of rights that history has ever known. Try defending human rights in anarchical places and you'll see how dependent we are on government to defend our rights (just take a look at 1990s Somalia for an example of how far our rights go without government backing). Not to mention all the legal rights that wouldn't even exist were they not created by the government.
Government has failed us by irresponsibly cutting taxes on the rich, deregulating markets, and allowing white-collar crimes to be committed without consequences. We are protesting to force government to rectify these mistakes by restoring the rule of law so that Wall Street can be held accountable.
I didn't say they didn't accomplish anything of value. They just made little change in reality of the big picture. Open up any newspaper and I'm sure you can read about a hate crime or sexual discrimination in the work place. The KKK and Nazi's still hold their meetings. I am not suggesting our government be run on anarchy, but it does need to be overthrown as it is far too corrupt. Our government is run and funded by the very corporations you are protesting, so they have no reason to listen to your voice unless REAL action is taking. Our government has long ago reverted to a corporation. If you think our government is still for defending and making laws on what the people believe in (democracy) then you have blinders on. This isn't the 18th century. You want a REAL revolution, then the people need to revolt.
So while you fight for taxing the rich, regulating the markets, and punishing white collar crime, are you still for letting the government spend millions a day on endless and baseless wars?
Good. So you do believe that just protest movements can accomplish things. From the successes of these radical protest movements, we can infer that it's possible for this just protest movement to accomplish the comparatively easy goals that we are seeking.
It's not hard to imagine a world in which the Bush tax cuts for the rich are allowed to expire, markets are re-regulated, and white-collar crime is prosecuted. Even before the protest movement we have just initiated a few weeks ago, there was significant support for these proposals in both houses of Congress and the White House. To finally accomplish these goals, we don't need to dissolve the constitution; we just need a handful of votes from our elected representatives. It really is that easy.
I was never in favor of the government spending millions a day on endless and baseless wars. I'm glad to see that those wars are finally coming to an end.
I do not want a "REAL" revolution and I regard your "big picture" as a red herring. As I said before, we are part of the reality-based community. Utopianism, paranoia, and violence have no place here. We see real problems and we propose real solutions. This is why our demands will be realized.
OK, so basically you are just angry at the rich. I am for equal taxes. The rich should be taxed no more and no less than everyone else. I'm just trying to understand this movement's goals. Everyone seems to be on a different page with no clear mindset for a real movement. It seems like a good majority of people are just mad that they are in debt. I've personally never been in debt nor ever felt the need to live beyond my measly 30k yearly salary. People seem to be blaming the banks for giving out loans to people who couldn't pay them back, but personally I don't believe the banks are at 100% fault. If you know you can't pay back a loan, then you are just as at fault as the banks.
Some the proposed demands want free college education, debt forgiveness for all, and outlaw credit reporting agencies, $20/hr minium wage!? That's more than I make and I am doing perfectly fine. Seems like people behind this movement are living beyond their means and just forgot the value of the dollar and that nothing is free. Do the majority of the people in this movement work full time jobs, have they really set a career path and tried to succeed, or do they just continue to want things handed to them?
I wouldn't say I am "just angry at the rich." In fact, I wouldn't say I'm particularly angry at anyone, individually or collectively. I think that our country is facing problems with its long-term debt, and that the best solution to this is not to cut programs now for those who need them most but rather to allow tax breaks to expire for those who can afford it, i.e. ending the Bush tax cuts for the rich.
The movement's goals are clear. We seek to hold Wall Street accountable. That means re-regulating the markets and prosecuting white-collar criminals while returning tax rates to what they were during the Clinton boom years.
Wall Street did not create every problem on earth. Wall Street did not even create every problem that is currently plaguing our economy. But Wall Street played an incomparably large role in creating the financial crisis that is still dragging down our economy, and it must be held accountable.
There are many people proposing all sorts of outlandishly unrealistic things in these pages. The really out-there ones are not catching on -- and I hope, for the good of the movement, people continue to point out their undesirability and that they will be dropped, as they only serve to confuse the real message of this movement.
Our goal is simple: to hold Wall Street accountable. And we will continue our struggle until this has been accomplished.
But shouldn't the people who took out loans and didn't pay them back be held accountable first?
Many of them have been held accountable. They have lost the collateral they put up against those loans. The courts have had no problem evicting people from their homes if they haven't been able to make their mortgage payments.
This has created it's own problems, though, which is why I favor allowing some homeowners to renegotiate their mortgages so that they do not owe more than their homes are worth and so that they do not have to pay the usurious rates that some banks are charging.
I agree with this:
OCCUPY THE FEDERAL RESERVE!!! A movement with a defined objective..... The OVERWHELMING evidence is available for all. These 5 goals, once accomplished entirely, will change the course of human history for the benefit of ALL mankind.
YES!!! The Federal Reserve is the CORE issue. If we don't fix the fake money that we are using, then Ben will hyperinflate all of us into abject poverty!!!
It ain't federal, and there's no reserve!!! What a scam.
BURN ALL THE CASH