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Forum Post: OMG I can not believe this were we duped?

Posted 11 years ago on Nov. 28, 2011, 12:57 p.m. EST by MitchK (305)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

OWS started by adbusters,why would a canadian company get involved in american politics? Why would they want to change american laws especially those concerning corporate america? Why do they offer and sell products made oversees and not within their own country or america to support their people? Why do they take the PROFIT and funnel it back into "their campaigns"? Why do the pople who run it MAKE A LIVING OFF IT(meaning profit for them)? Why do they deal with retailers to sell their products and allow them to make profit off of their product(when it should be for the good not the profit)? WOW we need to look at whos behind all this ows we are fightin with REALLY look and see what their true agenda is. Sound like they are feeding their pockets off of others....wow like a corporation, HAVE WE BEEN DUPED? I am now scared to hear the answer lets just keep fighting and doing what they said,feeding their machine, I do not want to admit it or HEAR that we were duped if we were.

72 Comments

72 Comments


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[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 years ago

It is November 28, 2011, and Mitch still hasn't gotten beyond Adbusters. Here is your package of fail.

[-] 0 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

HUH, hey mrs. do not and will not EVER say you are a PART no matter how tiny, of the problem(s) in this country ,you must have been born and raised in an amish community than to think your not part of the problem but lets get pased that..lol.....I just do not get it ...we "americans" are being led around by a Canadian CORPORATION making profits on others and for self. I just never knew or realized that we were being paraded around by other FOREIGN corporation.

Wait Girl, I forgot can you or did you ever answer the point of egtrra/jgtrra the reason this is going and the abbreviations that started it all and helped coin the phrases "corrupted govt by corporations" "1%/rich/corporations are robbing the 99%" , "1% run the govt" "corporate greed run the country" you do knwo where this all comes from right? You did look up those abbreviations like I suggested,right

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 years ago

Yeah, "lol" I am aware of the abbreviations. But, you didn't ask me that. You asked someone else. You asked me to restate again "from the heart".

And when I am in the mood to say something from the heart. I will get back to you.

[-] 0 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

LOL....ok girl...are you though EVER gonna cave in to the fact that no matter how small, tiny, minute, you do as we all do have in this whole economical problem?? EVER?!?!?!?!?!....lol..and plese always keep i mind I NEVER say all the fault is us...MOST is them

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 years ago

No, I'm not. And as soon as I find my heart (it has been misplaced today), I'm going to tell you all about it.

[-] 0 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

Girl, you I will can can listen to anytime all day whenever you want or are ready to tell me all about it, about anything you want,even though you wont admit to "it"...lol..Though today I feel bad for her who has misplaced her heart I will offer her thoughts of love to help and hopefully brighten her day. :) any better?...lol...wow that was pretty good if my ego does say so itself...lol

[-] 2 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 11 years ago

Nobody should be afraid to stand up and SPEAK for what they believe in. FIGHT for what they believe in, or HELP others to do so.

[-] 0 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

So wait it took a canadian corporation making profit from sales of product a canadain corporation makeing profit from overseas labor,it took them to show us americans what we should fight for?

[-] 1 points by rascal (42) 11 years ago

So wait it took a canadian corporation making profit

It has nothing to do with Canadian or Canada. This phenomena exists worldwide. Read the following and and think "What does this describe?"

"It began as “peaceful protests” on the 17th day of September – the month of the Autumn Equinox (Sept. 21 ­ Mabron – a very special ritual day ordained by WICCA, Kaballa, and Pagan practitioners of Lucifer as the day of atonement and the “releasing of prisoners” ­ both political and economic.) The protest began at a specific city which was the financial heart of THE pre-eminent global capitalist “Republic” – a world-power center of wealth and influence unequalled in the entire world at that specific time. The nation, however, had been in a Great Recession for three years. Factories were closing their doors, and unemployment had reached 36%. The national debt to the world central bank was crippling in every way. Inflation had successful eroded the wages of the people by 50%. The future of this once great nation was bleak in every way."

"The message of the “protesters” was a simple one ­ the “working people” were the unwitting slaves of BIG BUSINESS and COPORATE GREED ­ a mere 1% (the “ruling class) were robbing the “people” (the remaining 99%) of their wealth and property. It was not just a single day of protests, but was scheduled to last for many months. Eventually, the “movement” spread to every other major city in the country ­ as well as other foreign nations."

Now visit this link and find out. http://rense.com/general95/red.htm

If that is not enough visit "The New Yorker" http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/11/28/111128fa_fact_schwartz?currentPage=all

And if one wants to know about how the groups got organized:

"When Graeber and his friends showed up on Aug. 2, however, they found out that the event wasn’t, in fact, a general assembly, but a traditional rally, to be followed by a short meeting and a march to Wall Street to deliver a set of predetermined demands (“A massive public-private jobs program” was one, “An end to oppression and war!” was another). In anarchist argot, the event was being run by “verticals”—top-down organizations—rather than “horizontals” such as Graeber and his friends. Sagri and Graeber felt they’d been had, and they were angry."

"What happened next sounds like an anarchist parable. Along with Kohso, the two recruited several other people disgruntled with the proceedings, then walked to the south end of the park and began to hold their own GA, getting down to the business of planning the Sept. 17 occupation. The original dozen or so people gradually swelled, despite the efforts of the event’s planners to bring them back to the rally. The tug of war lasted until late in the evening, but eventually all of the 50 or so people remaining at Bowling Green had joined the insurgent general assembly."

“The groups that were organizing the rally, they also came along,” recalls Kohso. “Then everyone stayed very, very late to organize what committees we needed.”

"While there were weeks of planning yet to go, the important battle had been won. The show would be run by horizontals, and the choices that would follow—the decision not to have leaders or even designated police liaisons, the daily GAs and myriad working-group meetings that still form the heart of the protests in Zuccotti Park—all flowed from that."

"Graeber is a 50-year-old anthropologist—among the brightest, some argue, of his generation"— (continue reading)

Meet the anthropologist, activist, and anarchist who helped transform a hapless rally into a global protest movement http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/david-graeber-the-antileader-of-occupy-wall-street-10262011.html

Control of this movement has moved beyond these people and their agenda.

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 11 years ago

Control of this movement has moved beyond. You think? Yes, into the hands of Otpor, a Serbian resistance organization. As if the anarchist element was not enough - they also brought some friends along to help, who are experts in staging revolutions and overthrowing governments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCrC6GL7430&feature=youtu.be

[-] 1 points by rascal (42) 11 years ago

As if the anarchist element was not enough - they also brought some friends along to help, who are experts in staging revolutions and overthrowing governments.

Excellent video and thanks for posting.

The herd mentality exists very strongly and the "smoke and mirrors" work very efficiently.

To counter this and move in a correct direction it is absolutely necessary to promote and publicize peoples attention to The 99% Declaration https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/

Continuing to mindlessly carry signs and fight for camping rights and nothing else, is to invite failure which plays into the sought out agenda by these people and our own government.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 11 years ago

Strongly agree! I'm all about the 99%Decl too.

I know you get it, but I forgot to include this link. Might be helpful to others. Post #5. http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?p=1333630

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 11 years ago

There has never been a leader in this movement. Events are organized all the time, but not all of them strike a spark. I believe this spark was a naturally occurring counter-push to the extreme conservatism that has swept the nation (here and abroad).

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 11 years ago

Again, Adbusters is non-profit organization and they not not make profit from overseas labor. Get your facts straight will you.

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 11 years ago

From what I understand Adbusters is concerned about the envirnoment, etc ? and since America is the biggest resource hog of the world maybe that is why they started all of this.

[-] 0 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

prof·it/ˈpräfit/

Noun:

A financial gain, esp. the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something.

Verb:

Obtain a financial advantage or benefit, esp. from an investment: "the only people to profit from the entire episode were the lawyers".

Synonyms:

noun. gain - benefit - advantage - avail - lucre - interest

verb. benefit - gain - avail

Yeah they make a profit and yeah its from overseas "fair" labor rate versus our or canadas "fair" labor rate

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 11 years ago

nonprofit |ˈnänˈpräfit| adjective [ attrib. ] not making or conducted primarily to make a profit : charities and other nonprofit organizations.

Do you understand how non-profit organizations work? They do not, and cannot make a profit by law.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 11 years ago

"primarly" being the key word. UnitedWay reinvests only 10% of their collections.

Salvation army is 90%.

Non-profit doesnt mean shit.

[-] 0 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

Number one what law(s)?They are based in canada and laws are much more laxed there when it comes to corporations charitable or not. Number two yes I do but guess what as the director,president,cahriman of that "non-profit" I can earn/pay myself an income based on what we/I think is fair.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 11 years ago

No, the laws in Canada are very tight for nonprofit organizations. I use to work at one. They do not and cannot make profit. The people working at nonprofits usually make small salaries in Canada. Instead of talking nonsense and assumptions, why don't you verify your claims before posting. It makes you look ridiculous. Hell, I can't believe you just found out about AdBusters being behind Occupy. Were you on vacation during September? Down south profiting from the low cost of life? In the sun? With a beer? And, possibly, a girl?

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

Oh I knew heard of but just wanted to know who else does cares to or understand them....let them saty in canada...they do not libe here and are not govenred by our and yes I say OUR amercais laws stay out of it,its just as bad as america getting involved in other countrys policys. To hell with adbusters...lol..and where was I in sept...well at one pioint down at zuccotti park questioning some "protesters" "voicers" and "movers" of the movment and was cracking up at some of the answers I was getting about what this was all about.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 11 years ago

They made one ad for the protest. The rest was all handled by Americans. Where have you been during these past two month? On vacation? Down south? With a beer? A beach ball? And, maybe, a girl?

The GA's are fun by bit fat Americans who sometimes watch Jerry Springer re-runs. You have nothing to worry about.

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

Glaucon where are you located? do you know what they are trying to change in america at all? well for that matter most protesters do not...they just like using terms like "1% robbing america 99%" , "corporations corrupt the govt", "1% change laws for themselves"....do you actually know what the change is about?

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 11 years ago

I'm in Bali, Indonesia. I'm on the beach waiting for you."

"do you actually know what the change is about?"

Let's put it this way. An hour ago, you posted asking if we knew that Adbusters was behind Occupy. A month, I was reading articles about AdBusters and Mr. Graeber.

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

"...a mere 1% (the “ruling class) were robbing the “people” (the remaining 99%) of their wealth and property..."

this statement,description of people who did nothing ILLEGALLY wrong morally yes, and others like it is a phrase to higlite an issue in an american law that YES I think DEFFINATELY needs to be changed: I will throw you a hint as to what it is: egtrra/jgtrra (those are the abrreviations as they are known) now as a good PROTESTER and one "voicing" for the 99% in america tha you like the thers should fully undertand what it means,how it affects us,how can you change it FAIRLY for EVERYONE 100% not just 99 or 1, and keep in mind what monetary effect it will have on the country,futhermore where the cahnges will not be looked at in 10 yeasr and we say oooops that was a mistake lets blame.....

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 11 years ago

Don't mind Glaucon. I think he's a musician or something, and he gets a little carried away sometimes!

I need to get back to your other post - I really liked it! I'll reply from there as soon as I can.

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

April I do not mind anyone I have no ill feelings towards ANYONE even the ones who use insults or curses from time to time...I have and will always keep an openmind to hear others out. Agree or disagree they still have the right to make their point as I have the right to argue with it. No ill will towards ANYONE on here, except for...lol..btw thank you glad you liked it and are "working" it

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 11 years ago

I know! Thats because you are such an awesome person! Glaucon isn't so bad once you get to know him though. He's actually quite smart. I think his sense of humor was coming out a little bit too. Protesting shouldn't be so serious all of the time. : )

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 11 years ago

I guess you're new here. I'm against Occupy. I'm not a supporter of the movement. You should read a few threads before posting. If feel like I went back in time two months ago when nobody new each other and nobody knew what was going on.

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

OHHHH sorry ,so you are just a supporter of adbusters site?I am for lets see...global warming or is that aginst? I am for animal cruelty UNLESS it is for profit(sarcasm people I love animals and for that matter global warming..I mean no global warming)...so if you are not here for OWS's mission statement than what for would you be on an OWS site,wait an adbuster site, I forgot?

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 11 years ago

You just got here it seems. There are not only OWS supporters here, and I don't particularly care for Adbusters.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 11 years ago

Please stop. You're killing me. : )

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

AAAAAPRILLLLLL hello there good morning/afternoon to ya(depending where you are 3:15 pm btw in brooklyn) glad you are amused....lol

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 11 years ago

Not exactly. Adbusters is not-for-profit organization. Where did you get the information about overseas labor? Are you reading conspiracy websites again MitchK?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adbusters

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

Thrasy...their own website..they say it clear as day with the production of their profitable shoes

[-] 1 points by Glaucon (296) 11 years ago

BTW - You do know they own this website don't you?

"Thrasy...their own website..they say it clear as day with the production of their profitable shoes"

Where? Show me a link. I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I would be extremely surprised because they are totally against these ideas. Again, it's a not-for-profit organization. It started from the heels of GreenPeace which was also started in Vancouver some years before. If they had overseas workers, they would have been criticized to no end. Can you direct me to some clear info about this?

OK. It's not what you think: http://www.adbusters.org/campaigns/blackspot/pakistan.html?width=910&height=740

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

Yes and i do know if they are serious about their "mission" they will not boot/ban/delete someone for an opinion for OR against them in a non violent, nonthreatening manner that does not involve cursing harrasment,racist or insults.

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

wait not what I think....3 minutes ago you said:

"...I would be extremely surprised because they are totally against these ideas." "...If they had overseas workers, they would have been criticized to no end..."

Now you are saying its not what I think..what i think is they are paying workers what is fair wage in that country...lol..why to increase profitability that is the ONLY reason you find a way to cut cost PROFITABILITY. Now why not use Canadian workers? Give to those we/they NEED to support,their own people. I can tell you why. GREED

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 11 years ago

They do not make profit from overseas factories like you claim. Read the link I gave you. Again, Adbuters is a not-for-profit organization they do not make profit. Their overseas factory in Pakistan is used to set an example for other companies. They DO NOT make profit from the products.

I don't have a problem with companies opening factories overseas if the employees are treated well. That's fine. You were making it look like it was a sweat shop, but it isn't.

You need to learn to read and start reading.

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

no no I did not and would never say it is a sweatshop enviornment maybe thats what you saw when you first seen it...not me...I am simply saying why would they not keep it in their own house? PROFITABILITY that is the ONLY reason to save cost on something, to make more...what they do with it after is up for discussion.What example is this for other comapnys? Hey to hell with americans/canadians whatever and go to china or pakistan wer the "fair" labor rates is a 75% less than that of americas( 75% less is not an exact I just made that up for example purposes) ?

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 11 years ago

If they wanted to save on cost they would have a sweat shop like everybody else. Instead, they are paying their employees normal wages and giving them benefits such as health-care and dental-care, etc... Again, the company is non-for-profit. They are doing this to set a good example.

If wish more organizations were like them. The example is needed in Indonesia where I live. There are many US companies here and they pay little peanuts; hey, that's funny, the word peanut made me think of your brain.

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

Glaucon...typical can not make a valid point cannot come up with an inteligent though or way to debate an issue so you do whats natural to an inept person ,try to and I say try cause it does not work just makes you sound more uninteligent,try to insult,curse or rant and rave at or to someone. When someone uses insults or curses they can not form an inteligent thought so they resort back to their basic instincts of protection like a scared child...its ok Glaucon nobody is tryin to hurt you ...go lay down with your babab and taake a nap come back when you can play like a big boy/girl thats does not try to insult people.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 11 years ago

The point is AdBusters is a non-profit organization. They do not make a profit. It seems hard for you to understand this. Your whole post is misinformation, sort of like conspiracy theorists? Are you a conspiracy theorists?

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

NO how dare you say that..are you a federal agent? Did you have something to do with kennedy? Did you use planes with the govt to start a war? I am just sayong lok deeper and stop being lead by those who are truly not any better than those they bitch about...investigate more,study more,learn who you "do business with"...profit is profit what you do with it is something else...if they are so people con...ehh I can not bother truth is I persoanlly like to knwo who I am getting into bed with....thats all. I would not like to get into bed with a girl only to find out its two midget guys...unless that was my whole intention.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 11 years ago

You are telling us to look deeper? Wait... you're the only one here who didn't know AdBusters made the call for Occupy? Aren't you the one who isn't looking deep at all? Where were you during the last two months? On vacation? Down south? With a beer? Perhaps a frisbee? And, who knows, a girl? Welcome back to the real world. We missed you.

[-] 1 points by beamerbikeclub (414) 11 years ago

Oh my god... Canada is taking over! (do we get health care now?)

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

LOL...now you know I just had to open up a can of worms .

[-] 1 points by beamerbikeclub (414) 11 years ago

yeah... everyone needs to calm down. cAAAm down.

[-] 1 points by Vooter (441) 11 years ago

LOL...don't take this personally, but you sound like a retard....

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

see you have NOTHING to add inteligently so you should also read above post

[-] 1 points by Vooter (441) 11 years ago

I can spell "intelligently," however...

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

well thank god that MIGHT get you far in life..I did not know I was here for a spelling bee or an essay writing contest..let me guess you are good at spelling cause you spent 10 years in college on the govt or mommy and daddys money, so you can be a phillosaphy major( or some other field that will get you know where as a productve memeber of society) or a ....spelling bee winner?

[-] 1 points by WeMustStandTogether (106) from Newark, NJ 11 years ago

I guess your daddy and mummy aren't known. I can teach you to spell. Peace.

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

um ok,later...btw I do like your "name" ,it is great name for someone who trys to insult people

[-] 1 points by Peretyatkov (241) from город Пенза, Пензенская область 11 years ago

I read about this already. So what? Spread the Truth, Change the World! And what a difference that was the start for the world revolution!

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

ok...do not care about the world I first have to worry about my own backyard. Than the world

[-] 1 points by pissedoffchurchlady (7) 11 years ago

How about a simple of answer that THEY are correct. 'Nuff said. From the millions of Americans who have been praying for such an uprising,,THANK YOU ADBUSTERS. We seniors really do appreciate it. ROCK ON PROTESTERS !!!!

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

church lady do you know what the cause of this problem is in reality? Do you have any idea? Or like everyone else you are being led around without looking into it and forming your own opinions and ideas from your heart and MIND. Do you know the root cause of SAYINGS the rich robbing the people and the rich corrupting the govt,if thats law is done away with the middle class taxes will go up from 1000.00-2000.00 at tax time. Do you know Obama who said thast what he will change DID not,he extended it and just added to it concerning employment. Loo kinto the root cause first than talk do not be a peson of no own ideas and opinions I have more faith in you and the rest of us.

[-] 1 points by WeMustStandTogether (106) from Newark, NJ 11 years ago

I think this aggressive early approach to confronting nonviolent protests - primarily ows - isnt coincidental. Merely practice drills compared to the scale of civil disobedience agencies are anticipating ahead. Peace.

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

civil disobedience huh? You do mean Illegal actions,correct? Than they will complain when the authorities force meets their force head on and they get a booboo or get arrested. Violence,threats and harrasment to others,disruption(illegally blocking streets for example)or anything that can cause the normal flow of citizens,society and productivity of those living their daily lives. That is illegal and when dealt with these protesters do no tlike it.

[-] 1 points by Glaucon (296) 11 years ago

At least the Canadians gave you a nice poster. The dancer on top of the bull was the most elegant poster of Occupy and it was made by AdBusters. After the American designers took over, it just became gory violence.

[-] 2 points by FrankieJ (86) 11 years ago

Yep, Lasn does very nice design work. Beyond that, not as well thought out. lol

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 11 years ago

The nice poster - another reason why I love the Canadians.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 11 years ago

who gives a shit?

the fact is, it's time for change.

and it's comin . . . ready or not

[-] 0 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

Ready or not huh, Zen the last electin did you vote? if so did you vote in ALL elections available to you? Have you personally wrote/email/phone your elected govt official? I know you did but I will ask anyway. Have you ever beena memebr of working society and held down a steady job for more than 5 years? If you can not answe these yes than change is not coming. Not the way you think. I feel BIG changes NEED to happen first and foremost starting with us we the people.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 11 years ago

yes, I can answer yes to all of those questions . . .

and I can go you one better -

I've been waiting for this day for a long, long time. When I stood in the protests against Royal Dutch Shell, we were small, but we made a difference!

There are those of us who have not forgotten the sacrifice of Ken Saro-Wiwa before the hangman's noose that the west might consume in comfort the excess of the Nigerian Delta.

Some of us see with clarity that much of the gridlock that has become Washington politics is over the future of our nation and how it will produce the energy needed to maintain our technological and military supremacy worldwide. We see that - and we know the oil industry votes every single day with expenditures to maintain their grip on power.

We will target the nerves and we will break that hand, and that grip upon the throat of the American public will be no more.

[-] 1 points by MitchK (305) 11 years ago

wow zen when did YOU write that or form that statement though I d on t fully agree with it YOU did a great job writing it and getting your POINT of todays problem out there and your passion for it..koodos

[-] 1 points by moediggity (646) from Houston, TX 11 years ago

Who cares how it got started. Its started.

[-] 1 points by thraysmaque (10) 11 years ago

the American government, hides the truth from the American people thru, disinformation campaign's- ------------------ like 9/11 where there are so many government created story's- we will never know the truth--- OWS has become a threat to the powers that be- the disinformation , campaign , against ows has just started- example- read the posts on this site-------- you can't believe anything, that one gets within the boarders of the usa. training web page http://vgdhi.cjb.net thrasymaque

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[-] 0 points by economicallydiscardedcitizen (761) 11 years ago

Don't feel bad about the source-what matters for those in the USA is the awakening of the population. Yes, while most will completely misunderstand the magnitude of the ongoing corruption in government,finance/banking and big business and our own FED (see www.occupytogether.org for discussion threads on The FED) the smaller percentage who do and the smaller percentage of those who are among the 1% on our side are motivated to effect change through their economic and legal means at local, national and global levels-don't give up hope by thinking OWS is for naught. How do you think US labor laws got started? People and children were pushed to the breaking point and eventually enough became involved to effect change-similarly if enough Americans choose to reread the Constitution, Bill of Rights, Federalist Papers and study the history and corruption of our monetary system pushing for a reversion to that which was prior to 1913(gold/silver backed) with a return of business and self sufficiency to our shores then we could be assured that the USA will continue to successfully exist in the manner the founders intended and which is historically one which would give each individual the most freedoms for it's citizenry.

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[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 11 years ago

OK. I checked and have the stuff you say is just plain lies.