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Forum Post: Money as Debt

Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 26, 2011, 1:52 p.m. EST by RufusJFisk52 (259)
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[-] 1 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

I believe I posted that here. Thanks for posting a working link. This one is broken:


With Usura

With usura hath no man a house of good stone

each block cut smooth and well fitting

that design might cover their face,

with usura

hath no man a painted paradise on his church wall

harpes et luthes

or where virgin receiveth message

and halo projects from incision,

with usura

seeth no man Gonzaga his heirs and his concubines

no picture is made to endure nor to live with

but it is made to sell and sell quickly

with usura sin against nature,

is thy bread ever more of stale rags

is thy bread dry as paper,

with no mountain wheat, no strong flour

with usura the line grows thick

with usura is no clear demarcation

and no man can find site for his dwelling.

Stone cutter is kept from his stone

weaver is kept from his loom


wool comes not to market

sheep bringeth no gain with usura

Usura is a murrain, usura

blunteth the needle in the maid's hand

and stoppeth the spinner's cunning.

Pietro Lombardo

came not by usura

Duccio came not by usura

nor Pier della Francesca; Zuan Bellin' not by usura

nor was "La Calunnia" painted.

Came not by usura Angelico; came not Ambrogio Praedis,

Came no church of cut stone signed: Adamo me fecit.

Not by usura St Trophime

Not by usura Saint Hilaire,

Usura rusteth the chisel

It rusteth the craft and the craftsman

It gnaweth the thread in the loom

None learneth to weave gold in her pattern;

Azure hath a canker by usura; cramoisi is unbroiled

Emerald findeth no Memling

Usura slayeth the child in the womb

It stayeth the young man's courting

It hath brought palsey to bed, lyeth

between the young bride and her bridegroom


They have brought whores for Eleusis

Corpses are set to banquet

at behest of usura.

Canto XLV - Pound

[-] 1 points by MonetizingDiscontent (1257) 12 years ago

I liked money as debt, saw this some time ago, glad to see someone put that up here =) ....hey, speaking of debt...

::::THE RETURN OF DEBTORS PRISONS: Collection Agencies Now Want Deadbeats Arrested::::

((Video)) http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/return-debtors-prisons-collection-agencies-now-want-deadbeats-172417607.html?l=1

By Henry Blodget | Daily Ticker – Tue, Nov 22, 2011

As if life wasn't already tense enough for Americans who can't pay their debts, collection agencies are now taking advantage of archaic state laws to have some debtors arrested and sent to jail. http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-11-22/news/30427838_1_collection-agencies-big-house-debts

More than one-third of US states allow debtors to be arrested and jailed, says Jessica Silver-Greenberg in the Wall Street Journal. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203710704577052373900992432.html?mod=wsj_share_tweet

Judges typically grant arrest warrants when the debtors have failed to show up for court dates or failed to make court-ordered payments.

Of course, the reason debtors have failed to make court-ordered payments is often the same reason they didn't pay their debts in the first place: They don't have any money.

In September, a 53 year-old woman named Vivian Joy was stopped for a broken tail-light in Champaign, Illinois. And then, because the cops discovered that she still hadn't paid $2,200 to a collection agency, she was cuffed and carted off to jail.

Joy's excuse?

She doesn't have any money.

Jailing debtors for not paying their debts is apparently especially popular in Illinois.

(This practice, needless to say, is preposterous. If people can't pay their debts and have no prospect of being able to pay their debts, they should declare bankruptcy. And the debts should be written off. Companies don't go to jail when they default. Neither should people.)

[-] 1 points by whisper (212) 12 years ago

Not that I believe people should be sent to prison for not paying debts (that, of course, forces taxpayers to pay for the survival of the imprisoned and makes it more difficult for the imprisoned ever to sustain their own lives, which creates a self-sustaining pit of public expenditures to punish, then support, then punish, then support someone. It's absurd to suggest that someone who cannot pay their debts needs to be separated from society and absurd to force taxpayers to support the life of someone who (legally) cannot support their own), but what was she doing driving a car if she didn't have any money?

[-] 1 points by RufusJFisk52 (259) 12 years ago

we have credit agencies that replaced prisons for a reason....its more humane and still discourages others from doing dumb things without throwing them to rot in our prison indust complex

[-] 1 points by OccupyNews (1220) 12 years ago

I did not check out the video, however I do feel that the interest rates being charged on debt are enslaving, stealing, and forcing overconsumption of raw resources.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 12 years ago

That is silly the interest is paid to the people who hold the debt. Most of that is American citizens in the form of government bonds, retirement funds, the Social security Trust Fund, Government Pension funds. Are you saying that the 99% doesn't deserve interest on thir investment in the government?

The rates are actually very low. For example on treasury bills it is currently 0.086%.

[-] 2 points by economicsguy (16) 12 years ago

A few corrections:

First, the video talks about the interest charged by banks on loans.

Second, the "99%" are not getting interest any "investment" in the government.

The majority of the 99% does not own government bonds, and doesn't receive such yields. Unless you work for the government, your retirement funds will be subject to your employer's set up, not any interest from government. Also, social security has been mismanaged, and is close to insolvency unless it can be saved politically. The long term solvency of social security has been argued by politicians for years now, even though people have already paid into it for decades.

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 12 years ago

My bad,

I was not responding to the video I was responding to the post by OccupyNews. I thought we were talking about the national debt. There are so many topics here...

As far as bank loans go, you have to shop around for a loan. Rates are very low right now. You can find low interest student loans as well. Mortgage rates are at their lowest rate in 40 years. This week you can get a 0% 5 year loan for any Ford vehicle.

[-] 1 points by economicsguy (16) 12 years ago

Yes, you're right about rock bottom interest rates right now.

The reason it's like that is actually the subject of this video.

Currently, the Federal Reserve is doing everything it can to revive the economy. Unfortunately, since money comes from debt the only thing they can do is try to get people to take on more debt. But people are now strapped for cash and without jobs, so there is a problem with that plan... This is why we are in such economic trouble. The flaws with our monetary system are being exposed.

[-] 1 points by OccupyNews (1220) 12 years ago

Money may come from debt, but right now the debt is owned by the rich rich elite, and the only way they make profit is by charging interest.

Since it was the wall street elite and their digitally created home mortgage securitization fraud that helped bounce the economy into the mud, why should they continue to profit from excessive interest rates charges.

The 99% are presently enslaved by interest rate charges that prevent existing debts from ever decreasing in any noticeable amount.

Until justifiable debt restructure is implemented for the 99%, the rich will just get richer.

[-] 1 points by economicsguy (16) 12 years ago

I almost agree with you about those who are continuing to profit from the interest rates of the mortgage debacle, but at the same time the borrowers did agree to the terms... the problem is the market could not operate correctly allowing for the defaults to take place and punishing the risky behavior.

This video, however, explains a broader issue. It shows that the entire system we use is set up incorrectly, because people must be in debt for the economy to thrive... there is something obviously wrong with that.

[-] 1 points by OccupyNews (1220) 12 years ago

But you are excluding the digital investing fraud that has run rampant and may continue to.

Wall Street sets up a home securitization investment scheme that requires a "slice" of 10,000 homes. As that one fills up, another one is started using the same formula, but just changing the name of the investment scheme.

Since nothing is actually being made, the pressure to keep piling on more and more investments is too great to resist, the result is fraud that tanks everybody's wealth.

The problem is, people had debt based on a certain level of wealth, now the wealth is cut in half, but the debt remains, and the high interest rates remaining.

It's theft all the way around, and all against the 99%

[-] 1 points by economicsguy (16) 12 years ago

The reason it was allowed to become such a mess is two things:

  1. distorted and inflated markets due to the Federal Reserve since 1913
  2. government interference in the markets at the national level

Bad behavior is something the human race will always have, but the damage done by that would be limited if the system was set up correctly. We achieve that by having truly free markets where there is no such thing as bailouts, and sound money so there are not TRILLIONS of monetary units sloshing around magnifying the bad behavior.

[-] 1 points by OccupyNews (1220) 12 years ago

The federal reserve can be blamed if they helped cause either world war. I presume that the improvement in the assembly line of automobiles and the creation of the federal reserve around the same time were not a coincidence.

Henry Ford American car manufacturer, Henry Ford (1863-1947) invented an improved assembly line and installed the first conveyor belt-based assembly line in his car factory in Ford's Highland Park, Michigan plant, around 1913-14. The assembly line reduced production costs for cars by reducing assembly time.

It's not just all that money sloshing around, it's that it is a monster demanding the best rate of return. As it gets the best rate of return, it becomes more and more money not in main street's hand.

[-] 1 points by economicsguy (16) 12 years ago

I don't think you have a good understanding of the harmful effects of inflation, which is entirely due to the Federal Reserve.

I don't know what the assembly line of automobiles has to do with the Federal Reserve, or what point you're trying to make there.

This video, Money as Debt, gives a good background understanding of how our monetary system is set up, and why there is a problem.

[-] 1 points by OccupyNews (1220) 12 years ago

As these cars came off the assembly line, the workers could not afford to own one because the did not have the several hundred dollars needed, saved up.

In comes the federal reserve to create money so that loans can be taken out by the workers.

[-] 1 points by economicsguy (16) 12 years ago

So let me get this straight.

You think if there was never a Federal Reserve created all cars Henry Ford made would never be bought?

You do realize that people bought houses before 1913, and houses are usually more expensive than cars, right?

[-] 1 points by OccupyNews (1220) 12 years ago

I can't answer below because we've hit our quota of responding back and forth.

Yes cars would have been sold, but with the invention of the fastest assembly line ever created, getting those cars on the road was paramount to Edison not failing.

Unfortunately, the economic growth paradigm that worked very well back then is still being forced down everybody's throat almost a hundred years later.

[-] 1 points by OccupyNews (1220) 12 years ago

reply to below....

Fractional banking is not necessarily a bad thing when there is huge growth, or something will fail without huge growth, such as an assembly line.

The problem is it's now 100 years later and I think fractional banking has become outmoded. Too many people are either entirely for or entirely against fractional banking, I think it is an ebb and flow.

When fast growth is necessary and can be matched by actual production of a perceived necessary good or service, fractional banking is not necessarily a bad thing.

Nowadays, fractional banking appears to be problematical. It may just be problematical because of the interest rates being charged, or perhaps, we've just outgrown that mode of banking.

But I believe that fractional banking has had it's place and time where it worked, but that time is probably not until some new amazing paradigm energy related invention requires it.

[-] 1 points by economicsguy (16) 12 years ago

Your argument is in favor of loaning money.

That's fine. I don't have a problem with loaning money, or even charging interest for it. However, it can and should be done without the Federal Reserve.

The Federal Reserve, a non-government entity run by a private cartel, implements fractional reserve banking into our monetary system. If you understand that you understand where inflation (a hidden tax) comes from. The FED also makes big govt. spending on things like unconstitutional wars possible. We have spent 4 trillion dollars we couldn't afford over the last decade in these needless wars, which have enriched the military industrial complex, at the expense of common citizens. This financing at interest was possible because of the Fed, the govt. lender of last resort.

[-] 1 points by OccupyNews (1220) 12 years ago

Not the same thing. You can't drive a house away and disappear.

[-] 1 points by economicsguy (16) 12 years ago

You think no cars could have ever been sold if the Federal Reserve was not created?

[-] 1 points by economicsguy (16) 12 years ago

Charging interest is indeed something that can be abused. I don't like it, but interest alone is not a root cause of economic catastrophe. This is because defaults on loans/interest would self-correct the market, at least, if banks truly could be allowed to fail when making bad loans. Unfortunately, as we have seen that's not how our current system is set up, and this is part of the problem.

Money based on debt IS a possible cause of economic catastrophe, and this video explains how. This sort of education (and how the Federal Reserve works) should be taught in every school in America, but it's not...

[-] 1 points by OccupyNews (1220) 12 years ago

let me add that when i say interest rates are a root cause of our economic problems, I am not implying that interest rate charges always cause problems.

Economist rarely talk about this but there is a HUGE difference between interest rate charges on loans that actually create new modes of commerce and opportunity (aka the first 75 years of the last century), versus now, where infrastructure has been built up and anybody can communicate at the lowest cost in the history of the planet because of the internet.

Interest rate charges on existing debt is old school. However, I am not in favor of reducing interest rate charges so people can run up even more debt.

[-] 2 points by economicsguy (16) 12 years ago

I think we both agree here.

[-] 0 points by TomPaineII (0) from San Francisco, CA 12 years ago

In a lighter vein, on the same theme of debtless public money, here's an illustrated video/song, Treasured Notes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeUSFS2NnXk

[-] 0 points by OccupyNews (1220) 12 years ago

I have a suggestion for all youtube linkers. Could you please note the running time of the video below the link? This way we can make a better decision as to whether or not we have the time to check the video out.