Forum Post: Let’s just say it: The Republicans are the problem.
Posted 11 years ago on April 28, 2012, 1:22 p.m. EST by shoozTroll
(17632)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
By Thomas E. Mann and Norman J. Ornstein, Published: April 27
Rep. Allen West, a Florida Republican, was recently captured on video asserting that there are “78 to 81” Democrats in Congress who are members of the Communist Party. Of course, it’s not unusual for some renegade lawmaker from either side of the aisle to say something outrageous. What made West’s comment — right out of the McCarthyite playbook of the 1950s — so striking was the almost complete lack of condemnation from Republican congressional leaders or other major party figures, including the remaining presidential candidates.
It’s not that the GOP leadership agrees with West; it is that such extreme remarks and views are now taken for granted.
Yes Virginia, there is a difference.
Well, it is about time.
Of course, when you get over a skull fracture, and several other broken bones, you may notice that you have a head ache. So, after the Republicans (broken bones) are gone, then we will notice that we still have the headache (Dems). Then we will have to fix the Dems. An easier problem, but it still must be fixed.
That's a very good way to put it Shooz. I hope for the day when the truth about what decisions are best for ALL Americans is known by most, a clear majority, and then, our elected congressman may act in our interest. Then and only then, we may even REALLY hold them accountable if they don't do what is right by ALL Americans.
BUT-----------So far, we have reaped what we sowed. Every time we vote, we sow a seed. Unfortunately, many folks wouldn't know a lie from the truth and don't care to figure it out. They just don't give a damn. This is where the breakdown begins. And, not surprisingly, they vote for clowns, jugglers, and money grubs. Sadly, the Tea Party does exist and continues to defy all sense of rationality, so that most us just have to shake our head at it and say, no wonder we're standing in the middle of this mud puddle. They help us understand why generally we're screwed but also why to maintain any measure of sanity we have to at least try to stop their desire to destroy the world around us.
It's amazing how many people wouldn't know the evident truth even if it hit them between the eyes.
Puzzlin
It really isn't so much a matter of recognizing truth It is a matter of not valuing or being interested in, truth. If you believe that ALL evidence presented to you is suspect because it is ALL being manipulated by the "other" people to mislead you. And/or by a higher power(s), also, in order to accomplish ends that they don't know, can't know, and wouldn't be able to understand if they did know.
Who are you going to believe? The book, the folks who clam not just to have read and memorized the book, and claim to be the the unique authorities for interpreting a document which was written by many people in several languages over the span of many years who report on events they didn't actually witness or as the comedy line goes, "your lying eyes." Even contradictions don't seem to matter.
Once you have given up your personal self confidence in making decisions for yourself, based on the evidence your "lying eyes" see, you are a mark for every charlatan out there and there are a whole lot of them.
The truth becomes, by definition, "what I believe." Nothing presented from any source matters because there is no process of logic, rationality, or testing that can overturn what they believe. "It is true because I believe it to be true." is the bottom line. It is a very short step to doing the same thing in politics, Rush said so. Sean said so. __ said so. We frequently see it in this site.
I don't know what you can do when people voluntarily give up their minds. I move on.
Very good point. Well said. I think your right that people sometimes go out of their way to ignore the truth. For them they tend towards emotion more and the truth less. They believe that which they wish for earnestly. Brainwashing dependent on how long it's been happening is very hard to overcome. By default we always tend towards the easiest way and if your mind is overloaded with crap, guess what comes out. Examples of it are plentiful especially in forums like these and involving politics. The brain farts do get repulsive at times by it's never a mystery where they come from.
Good Luck! You and I both know the work is never done uncovering the truth behind all this blathering but well I have at least a reason why I put some skin in the game. My life does mean something. I have act upon it the best way I can learning from those who plowed the path before me. I carry on where they left off. We still need that age of reason or enlightenment, it's not complete.
Thanks for the interesting discourse.
The Puzzler
Thanks, pay it forward.
I love that saying and the concept it presents.
I just read the string on the PR question. Revealing, not in a good way.
The attacks occasionally get a little more sophisticated. Problem for them is - when they do that? They generally step in it quicker.
Wasn't Maggie Smith from your neck of the woods brighton. Now there was a woman.
This isn't Brighton England, New Brighton MN , Brighton, Boston, Brighton UT, Brighton MI, nor Brighton Beach NY.
She was, in fact, a woman. Not one that I was close to, but still, a woman in every sense of the word, as far as I know.
Didn't know that there were that many Brightons. There was a Polish guy living in Brighton Beach, and this other guy said to him, "What's wrong with you? You have been here four years, and you still can't talk a word of Russian." Yes Senator Smith stood out when few others did.
You have to know Brighton Beach to appreciate that one. I am sure there are more Brightons. Try CO.
Yes, you're right. A Russian friend who was living in Odessa, in the Ukraine told me that joke while we were both in Guantanamo Bay.
I once, inadvisedly, told an ethnic joke in Paris. I told them there were ethnic towns where I came from. One was French. We like to tell Polish jokes but in that town we had to tell them very slowly. Big laughs in a series as the translators finished the punch line in each language, except in French, of course.
One of many bad Ideas I have had.
Yes, we have all had some bad ideas. Some of the best decisions I have made in my life were to keep my mouth shut. I did go into a restaurant before our invasion of Iraq, when France was criticizing our planned invasion. The guy asked me if i wanted 'freedom fries' with my sandwich. I said no, I wanted FRENCH fries. He did not like that. And I have noticed that my kids have done better not listening to my advice, at least some of the time. I do enjoy walking the line though, between what is acceptable, an what is not, just to keep life interesting, and you are obviously of the same ilk. :-)
A Commonwealth joke: Why do the Aussies drink out of saucers? Because the Kiwis have all the cups. Of course you can tell that any way you like for the countries that compete for the Cup in cricket or rugby.
Hey Odin. Get some sleep yet today? I know you had a full day goin on yesterday into the wee hours of this AM.
Yes, i got to sleep around 0730 after gearing down, and woke around 2:00-2:30 feeling sore from carrying the banner all day yesterday, so i had one of my rare epsom salts bath. I must have walked close to ten miles. That did the trick. I am still sore, but it is a good sore. I still have not seen any of the news reporting, on yesterday, but I have heard there was violence or vandalism in some cities. That is not good.
Like I told GK, it was one of the more memorable days in my life, and I still am basking in it and reflecting on it.
Good deal I saw your comment telling GK about some of your day. Sounds like you had a very good day.
I am going to share an email from one of the leaders in the leaderless (:-) affinity group OTS sent me. "Occupy Town Square meeting canceled tonight.The Occupiers are recovering from our wonderful, magical, massive day of action yesterday." That says it all.
Rest relax recharge. Did you see my notice I put out yesterday(?) that the gatherings across the country got prime-time mention on the Twin Cities local ABC 5:00 news cast? They did not say a whole lot but did say that the NY gathering was the largest gathering in NY so far since OWS began.
You have me pegged correctly, for sure. I enjoyed a Commonwealth event, the Tattoo in Edinburgh. They are seemed to be getting along well. Of course you could get your fill of whiskey shots from vendors in the stands. Very civilized and good for avoiding the chill, you see. It was very inspirational.
I went to a military tatoo once at Fort Ticonderoga, NY. That fort is actually owned by the Pell family, which is a very old money family in America. The kids' fourth grade teacher in Vermont was a Pell (his Mom), a first cousin of Sen. Pell (the Pell grants) of Rhode island. I felt very honored that we were the only people in our little town that he invited (or maybe he wasn't thinking straight...heee) to go to that, and a beautiful reception..... complete with beautiful white tents, and great food that I did not recognize..... afterwards at his Mom's house. His Mom was a real sweety. I endeared myself to her when I told her, the apple did not fall far from the tree. My three daughters all agree that he was the best teacher that they had in grade school. He simply wanted them to work up to their full potential. They also had a Black Watch bag piper from Montreal who played a solo Amazing Grace. WOW! Earlier the barge I worked on had passed by the fort on its way to Plattsburg Air Force base. These memories as you know are very valuable, and avoiding the "chill" is important too. :-)
Forgot, there are a lot of Scots in 'Dunedin' New Zealand (wonder how many of them there are?), and hence a lot of bag pipers. I played a combo of cricket, and soft ball there one day. that was interesting. I hate when people have me pegged, You? Might be time to throw me a curveball brighton. lol
Most impressive were the units from Singapore and Hong Kong. White uniforms and pith helmets, white "dirt" bikes, high speed (loud) maneuvers, and suddenly the lone piper spot lighted on the top of the wall and "Grace" was truly amazing.
Thought the brightonsage was a curve: brighton's age, brighton sage, bright on sage. Oh, well
Sounds really cool. I was in a military fort in India once where you could eat lunch, and when the British were there, Indians were not welcome, but now that they were gone, everyone was welcome. Good traditional food there, but after a couple of weeks of that, I began searching for good old bland American-like food. What i would have given for a jar of Skippys. Yep you got that one by me without me even seeing it. I'll be more alert next time.
You're on the same lines as some of those old Vermonters I eventually befriended. It does take about ten years for them to warm up to you, but when they do, you have a very good friend. They just want to make sure that you have all the crap out of your system first.
Sounds really cool. I was in a military fort in India once where you could eat lunch, and when the British were there, Indians were not welcome, but now that they were gone, everyone was welcome. Good traditional food there, but after a couple of weeks of that, I began searching for good old bland American-like food. What i would have given for a jar of Skippys. Yep you got that one by me without me even seeing it. I'll be more alert next time.
You're on the same lines as some of those old Vermonters I eventually befriended. It does take about ten years for them to warm up to you, but when they do, you have a very good friend. They just want to make sure that you have all the crap out of your sytem first.
At this stage it's the most viable path available.
Until OWS grows it's political wings, it's all we really have.
3rd party stuff sounds nice, but like I asked someone before, be aware of who they're going to caucus with, as it's still very much a 2 party system, and a third party President will need support from 2 houses to get anything done..
You are totally correct.
[Removed]
http://occupywallst.org/forum/party-breakdown-better-options-are-possible/
I get it.
The numbers actually don't add up.
You are probably right but I think the principle is, I think that in the present level of disenchantment much smaller numbers, relative to the total population, can start to turn the boat around. So, as we are working on getting to what turns out to be critical mass, we need to stabilize the patient. That means Dems control of Congress and the Pale House.
Agreed completely.
I think American voters are more ready for an independent than ever. A video on http://independentvoting.org/ shows how many of those who voted for Obama were actually independents. The popularity of Ron Paul is another indicator that people are less afraid of coloring outside the lines than in years past. They just had the wrong candidate. Also what may help and what many may not realize there is a phenomenal movement going on right now by the Christian Left to give sane progressive moderate Christians a voice. I think many religious people will jump ship and distance themselves from the religious right- and will vote independent. Agree, we need to vote out all Republicans - finish them off. But get a viable independent out there NOW- ready for 2016. Who will it be?
I wish a 3rd party could be viable. And I agree we should work towards one. I also agree Republicans should be voted out because they are too far gone. I think the dems can be made to serve the 99%. voters should put massive pressure (like ows) on all candidates, whatever party to support the issues they believe in. and vote for the best choice until we have viable 3rd party. support OWS!! Support pro ows politicians!! Vote out big corp loving republicans
As some people have pointed out to me it doesn't really have to be a third party, just an independent that people trust. If only someone like Bernie Sanders who people already know and love would run. Maybe there are some being talked about that I don't know. But we have to vote Obama in if for no other reason than a better environment for an independent to grow in. Obama would probably even vote for him or her :)
Agreed! love Sanders! We have keep massive pressure on Prez & all Pols to correct the system and allow for ind. to flourish.
I like sanders too, you can draft him on AmericansElect.org
You should like this:
Your Letter to Congress
http://letters2congress.rallycongress.com/1377/tell-congress-to-take-a-pay-cut/
I believe that communication is essential and that it is part of the process of owning the democratic process, that it is part of the people participating in their government.
Agree and signed. Thanks. And btw your posts are always welcome. I usually have deal with nasty, hateful, even threatening people. Good work.
Thank you. I like the spirit in your comments supporting OWS and all of the movements against greed corruption crime.
Yes you will be attacked by the blind marching supporters of the status-quo ( greedy corrupt criminals ) more so as you support unity in common cause to defeat the criminals. It is kind of like a very nasty fan-club. The more truth you share the larger your nasty trollaratzi crowd will get.
People are waking up and leaving the Republican and Democrat parties at record numbers.
The biggest bloc of voters is those that dont vote, because thats all they see is criminals. Give them something to believe in, and we are on our way to change.
Even at the inception of the George W. Bush presidency, we saw conflict and deception. The voting machines were determined to have programmable chips installed in them. So, the election results were challenged, and the 1% paid to have the challenge neutralised. Move foward to Enron, the war with Iraq, the categorical destruction of jobs and the middle class, and who can forget the wall street bailout ---all of these attributable to the republican party! America, remember these things in November.
"Move foward to Enron...." http://www.laborers.org/Nation_EnronDemocrats_.htm
"...the war with Iraq.." The vote to invade Iraq by the DEMS 82 yes 126 no's. The Democratic party is not unified. There is a strong 'blue dog' element. So in practice what we wind up with is one party on issues.
"the categorical destruction of jobs and the middle class,"
This has all come about due to Free Trade.
""Remember NAFTA?," they tell me. "Clinton was a Democrat, and he pushed the free-trade agenda forward."
Yes, but let's look at how he did it. The 1993 roll call vote in the House found 132 Republicans in favor of NAFTA, 43 against. Among House Democrats, there were 102 in favor, 156 against.
In the Senate, the same story. Among Republican senators, there were 34 in favor of NAFTA, 10 against. Among Democratic senators, 27 were in favor, 28 against."
Do these sound like major differences in voting?
I am not focused on party line votes; rather, the President in the oval office at the time. If you want to talk about Clinton/Bush on the economy,remember that when Bill left office, we were enjoying a huge budget surplus, which GW Bush promptly converted into a disastrous deficit.- Vis a Vis a war for the financial benefit of the military industrial complex. Fast foward to 2009, Obama had to bail out wall street with taxpayer money; primarily because of the unfunded war in Iraq(800 billion). At the time, GW laid claim to the republican battle cry: no tax increase. When it came time to pay the bill, Obama had to step up to the plate and pay the bill generated by the dead-beat republicans.
Budget surplus and deficit have different meanings in todays economy. We are no longer tied to gold. Quite frankly a budget surplus may have been responsible for the economic downturn in the late 90's - '00. A balanced budget means no private sector savings, a surplus means negative private sector savings.
The President does not make law. Congress does.
Mumbo-jumbo. Trying to raise the level of discussion into the twilight zone doesn't fly. A surplus is a surplus; a deficit is a deficit. Quite frankly, we didn't have an economic downturn in the late 90's. At that time, I was watching my 401k increasing at an annual rate of 32%. Enron launched the downturn, while GWB sat with his finger up his judah. Incidentally, the president can and does make law with executive directives.
Congress controls the purse strings and makes law. Executive directives play a very small role if you check whats on the books in the Federal Register.
Understanding our monetary system is extremely important and misunderstanding it has been the source of great errors. In 1971 Nixon closed the gold window. The implications of that is huge. Ignore them at not only your risk but our nations risk. I suggest you read up on MMT.
This isn't 'mumbo jumbo':
http://pragcap.com/understand-the-modern-monetary-system/understanding-modern-monetary-system
Remember that TARP was Bush's. Try defunding Afghanistan as a single issue.
That will be ugly.
Also remember Bill repealed Glass Steagall, which was enacted after the last depression, on his way out the door.
Without repealing that, there would be no housing bubble and bust. Geo is right, there are two parties to blame, and we are programmed to only attack one,
We attack the one which has an unqualified predilection for undermining the best efforts of america's middle class to survive.
I would say crushing the American dream- the nice house with the white picket fence- certainly qualifies for it. Problem is, the other side is just as worse.
Wake up.
hchc
The human animal is highly adapted to seeing even the smallest differences. It is how we evolved, survived.
You failure to see any difference between a democrat or a republican is so flawed it is DELUSIONAL.
DO understand what a fact is? Please tell me your definition? Maybe some day you'll see how irrational and silly you've been. You words are captured here and all other this forum. We do know you by these words but they all seem baseless.
Do you know what evident truth is?
If your still in high and learning then forgive me, I apologize for maybe seeming a little rough. But we do seek truth, and it needs no support from emotional people, it stands solely on the printed word.
Here some words that may sound familiar:
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
TJ
Seek the truth hchc and turn off hannity, O'Lielly, Rushboy, and Beck. They are lairs and distort the truth.
The Puzzler
I dont watch any of those hacks, and your assumption I would is very telling of where your baseline is for political discussion.
Of course there are differences. Minor differences. When it comes to the actual voting records and legislation, its always more of the same corrupted bailouts for hte top.
Do you ever win?
another political hack that assumes because I dont agree with some of his naive statements, it means I must be part of the other half of this problem.....this country is drowning in ignorance.
I guess that would be a NO.
Thought so. Thanks for taking the survey hchc.
I got you down for one big NO.
The Puzzler
No one wins in this ignorant mess we have made ourselves here....
Good ideas never die, they just get ignored.
Certainly not on that issue, but you need to have the names. There are RINO's and DINO's and votes on issues matter. How many citizens have any idea how their Senators and Congressmen actually vote? I read their record for the week, every week in my local newspaper. I frequently send them emails that they don't read, when they do it wrong.
Although, as the article shows, since the Repubs vote in lock step, all you need to know is how one voted, then you will know that is the wrong side and that they all voted that way.
I never forgot those things, nor all the other things that happened.
So many seem to have forgotten, or dismiss their impact 3 1/2 years later.
This isn't my first recession, but it is the deepest, and the others took 5 to 6 years to approach stability.
This post goes to the top again, because the trolls will work this forum overtime in the next 36 hours, and we need to blunt that barrage!
ONE - JUST ONE!
OK- so what are we sane Americans going to do about this?
We are all furious with the lies and theft and murder - we are all furious.
Here is your REAL assignment for May - convince just ONE Rs
that the truth is the truth.
It has to be done DELICATELY - without the justifiable rage that we feel at the lemmings who followed Nixon, Powell, Reagan, Rove, Bush, Cheney
not an easy task - but imagine the results!
A delicate task indeed..........:)
The hardest part is weaning them away from Limbaugh and FLAKESnews.
"It has to be done DELICATELY - without the justifiable rage that we feel at the lemmings who followed Nixon, Powell, Reagan, Rove, Bush, Cheney..."
...And Obama. You forgot Obama.
These four men REQUIRE that you vote for Obama
If you don’t believe them,
…….ask Newt Gingrich or John McCain about Citizens United
OR
…….ask the family of any soldier killed in Iraq about bush v Gore
OR
Are you afraid to answer these simple question -
……tell me why supreme court appointments make no difference ?
……tell me why ( roberts + alito ) = ( sotomayor + kagan ) ?
Can you see the difference between the democrats and the Rs ?
.……Do you believe that President Gore would invade Iraq?
…….or that President Gore would NOT read his PDBs?
Are you intelligent enough to answer these questions without using the scariest word in your head – “Obama”
Just because Scalia and Thomas take koch brothers money – you don’t have to
Republicans are only part of the problem. I may believe that they're a bigger problem than democrats, but using that logic to vote for democrats is playing into their game. When large numbers vote, and vote against both parties, the people will take notice.
They will take notice when the GOP lose in great numbers, you have no plan or ability to do the other there is hardly any seats that can be won in Nov. by a third party and every time people vote for one they help those that oppose them the most.
Absolute nonsense. Are you saying that voting for Democrats is playing into Republican hands?
Next you'll be saying:
"War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, and Ignorance is Strength."
Vote for Obama and I'm corroborating to continue the corruption that exists because I am afraid of the dangers of an even worse Romney presidency.
Vote third party and I'm conspiring with other like-minded people to end the corruption, but doing so greatly increases the dangers of getting the Romney presidency I fear.
When one grabs a protest sign and heads into the street, does it not increase one's dangers greatly relative to doing nothing at all. Are these dangers not braved because the message is so important that a person must make a stand - to send a statement to the policy makers that we are the people and you work for us - and encourage others to join so the number of voices will grow. If enough voices speak together they grow louder and louder and louder.
If we are willing to brave the dangers of pepper spray, arrest, or other harm to do an actual protest, should we be any less brave wearing our convictions when facing the dangers of voting?
The point is we can and should do both - vote for the Democrats to kick the Republicans out, allign ourselves with all groups who have a compatable agenda, AND continue to pressure for change with protest and noncooperation.
Nothing less than all of these approaches combined can effectively dislodge the stranglehold on our democracy. I've said this so many times that I should have a way to just hit a button rather then having to write it out again, and noone has yet effectively contradicted it.
I've given this a lot of thought. Ran it in my mind every which way but Sunday. And cooperation does not seem to be the way to go.
Consider the viewpoint from the following article (it is dated, but relevant)
"While Ross Perot's showing in 1992 amounted to the best finish by a non-major party candidate in a presidential election since Teddy Roosevelt won 27.5% of the vote in 1912, Perot's Reform Party has failed to emerge as a unified, viable contender. As noted in the table, Perot finished a with a disappointing 8.4% of the vote in 1996. Things have declined so badly for the Reform Party in 2000 that the candidate authorized to call himself the "real" Reform Party presidential candidate is the subject of bitter internal party strife. Pat Buchanan, the best known Reform Party candidate, is unlikely to win more than two or three percent of the vote in November. In fact, polls suggest that Green Party candidate Ralph Nader is likely to win more votes than Buchanan.
What does the future hold for the Reform Party, the Green Party and other "third parties" in the American system? Quite probably, the same fate that has befallen third parties that have come before them. One or both of the two major parties is bound to "steal" their issues, incorporate them into their platforms and absorb their supporters into their ranks. In fact, the declining success of the Reform Party is due in large part to the fact that both the Republicans and Democrats have taken up the core issues championed by Ross Perot in 1992--balancing the budget and reforming the federal government. The Reform Party, consequently, no longer holds an obviously unique position on the issues that attracted so many voters in 1992.
If the Green Party manages to win a significant number of votes in November, history (including the recent history of the Reform Party) tells us the most likely outcome will be for one of the two major parties (almost certainly the Democratic Party) to adopt the Greens' policy positions to win the support of Green Party voters.
In American political history, third parties have served the important purpose of refocusing the two major political parties on issues they have ignored or dealt with ineffectively. Rarely, however, does a third party manage to emerge as one of the major parties by knocking an existing one off its roost. The prospects of that happening in 2000 are almost non-existent."
Voting third party has long term consequences, if the vote is large enough and loud enough to make the parties pander for our votes. I would be willing to endure Romney to realign the parties by sending them a loud message of where the public really stands on issues.
Thank you for that well thought out comment. I'm afraid we will just have to disagree:)
I understand completely. Any choice we make concerning this election has more downside than upside.
That article has an interesting perspective. This is starting to piss me off. The more I read up on this, the more obvious it becomes that there are no good choices. No real answers. The best option is to eliminate all parties, and that option is an absolute impossibility.
The impossible can be accomplished. They said the same thing before we threw out the monarchy.
That's true. I have no intention of voting for Obama or Romney, but the choice of what to actually do is far less clear. With NO alternatives, what to do?
What to do is the question. I have thought about uniting support around a single third party/independent candidate.
Say Obama and Romney both have just under 50% of the vote each. All it takes for a 3rd party candidate to be in contention is to siphon 15% from each major candidate. That would be 35% to 35% to 30%. A very close race.
By splitting Obamas and Romney's vote, and combining the 3rd party vote there is a chance. People are fed up with the two fronrunners and many here only support them to keep the other from winning.
How to put this in motion is the next step.
You can always do what Im doing, which is just supporting raising awareness of alternative options, let people know we dont have ONLY evil choices.
Give a hand to all alternative candidates that need it.
That is what I'm doing as well. But the lesser of two evils thought permeates the thoughts of many, when in fact it is the same evil.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/party-breakdown-better-options-are-possible/
See what you think about this?
The numbers are against the big two if they can be mobilized to vote. You would think the financial crisis woke up a few people. We'll see this November when everyone gets a chance to vote.
There was a post on here (had the link but lost it) last year that showed, using an actual local election somewhere, what a surprisingly small percentage of voters it takes to get an unpopular candidate elected. It's far less than what one would automatically assume. Couple that with the fact that somewhere between 35% and 45% (by some estimates) of Americans didn't vote in the 2008 Presidential election is pretty compelling evidence that the numbers could be there.
Please study the 1968 election and it's consequences. I think you will come away knowing what to do.
Here's my take. I absolutely will not vote for Obama or Romney. I also believe Obama's a shoe-in (almost, anyway) in November. Based on the numbers I saw last night, there's 42 million registered Democrats and 30 million registered Republicans. Romney has a steep uphill battle. So, from my viewpoint anyway, that leaves vote Independent or not vote at all. What would you do? Although we won't see eye to eye on this (you're voting Dem., I think), don't let this affect our other conversations. The last thing this forum should do at this point is let political differences divide us.
Thanks for this response. From it I know two things immediately.
You are not a troll.
Gven that your intentions are sincere, we can disagree and still be on the best of terms.
When I advocate a plan of action, I simply assume that people reserve the right to make their own decisions based upon the situation to the best of their understanding, as I have done. I understand completely your frustration, and I know that electing as many Demoreats as possible in the next election will not solve the problem. The problem is far more systemic then that.
Having said that, I have no patience for those who are here to disrupt or promote a hidden agenda.
Thanks for the reply.
It is very frustrating. I've been nothing but a casual observer of politics since getting completely disgusted during the Reagan years. I'd given up on it altogether until I found this site accidentally last October, so, I've had to go from completely ignorant as to what's been going on politically, to basically a crash-course here (and elsewhere on the web) in eight months. First, one of you more knowledgeable ones will say something that makes complete sense. Then, someone else comes along with a completely logical counterpoint. (ARRGHHH). Frustration is an understatement. I want to do the right thing but what I'm seeing is, there may not be one.
I hope you don't think I have a hidden agenda. I do not. In fact, I almost regret getting on one side of this debate rather than sticking to the threads that are more up my alley, knowledge-wise. But, ah well, the cat's out of the bag.
You already have done the right thing, and that is to get engaged in the process. That is called activsm. In a way it's really that simple.
More than anything what the 1% don't want is for people to become active rather than passive. And so what you have already done is VERY important.
We are faced with a Gordian knot of a problem. But don't give up. We will win, in the long run, if only we persevere.
We don't have all the answers. That is why we are here; to work together in good faith to find them.
The numbers are there. It just takes effort.
The numbers ARE there. Its the dirty little secret the establishment doesnt want you to realize.
The people are starving for it.
I wish I had that link or could remember the guy that posted it. If I'm not mistaken it was in the single digits if you factored in the percentage of people that didn't vote. I'm sure it was less than 20%. It was a local election but I don't see why it wouldn't scale.
This is how I see it:
50% dont vote. Many arent allowed to vote, due to idiotic laws. Of the remaining 50%:
(Here is a link to some good info)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/story/2011-12-22/voters-political-parties/52171688/1
21% are registered Dems, 15% are registered Reps, and 12% (give or take a few each way, depending on your sources).
Of the 50% that dont vote, if only 15% of them rally around an indie that can draw from all three, and you have an easy victory.
See, this is why I wish I had that link. The math you lay out is exactly what anyone with average math skills would assume. By average, I mean, what your typical high school student (not the math whiz) would know by graduation. But the way this guy laid it out, with the real numbers mind you, it was actually less. I know it doesn't make sense on the surface, that's why I wish I had that link. Almost like some of those physics examples where the answer is the opposite of what you'd think. But the math worked.
Perhaps you should create your own document and start posting it around place like this? You would then be one of the few internet posters that actually can affect change.
It's going to take us all to keep hammering away. A year ago I had no intention of ever voting in a Presidential election again. Coming onto this site and reading the myriad comments from the people that have been following politics all these years is what made me reconsider. Like a lot of people apparently, I'm just starting to put the pieces together, largely thanks to the net. I bet a lot of people automatically assume you have to get half the population to get someone elected. The numbers show its a whole lot less. I think people are starting to realize this.
Querying the future seldom yields answers, only possible outcomes.
That is a worthy quote. Yours?
As far as I know
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Vote for third party and help people like Bush take office that really worked out good didn't it? It is even worst to encvourage third party voteing, it is why the planet will one day burn.
Not necessarily, you could vote for a third party Republican candidate, an example would be Buddy Roemer, and actually hurt Romney's chances. If the planet burns one day, it will be because we continue to repeat history and not change it.
voting for the D is the only way to hurt Romeny's chances, that is the kind of thinking that put Bush in the White instead of Gore, and continuing that thinking will allow people like Bush continue to win
I understand the thinking you propose, and have not ruled that out. And I am not encouraging anyone to do anything other than to think for themselves. Personally, I'm searching for alternative perspectives before making up my mind. Anyway, It could be a moot point, M O N E Y may very well be the determining factor this November.
Here’s the thing I think, the two parties love it when a third comes along, the D’s in 92, with Perot then the R’s in 2000 with Nader, they love it when they get away with being so far out there that people really get pissed then spend their energy, helping them solidify the two big parties. The only way to really make a difference is to get rid of one, and the R’s could fall if we do our job, then bam a new party will spring forth because that’s how the system is set up. Now this will take a few elections and getting the R’s to below 40 in the Senate will not be easy, but once that happens everything else goes pretty quickly.
Sorry, I don't care so much about speculative thinking on what the parties love or don't love. An argument of that nature isn't going to sway me one way or the other. I'm simply looking to weigh the pros and cons of the effects of voting for a third party candidate.
From what I've learned, a viable third party has only served two purposes historically.........1) raising issues being ignored by the two major parties 2) providing a spoiler effect in the elections
My main sticking point for keeping my mind open about third parties has been pinned on the idea of raising the right issues....In retrospect, I see something obvious I had missed before - the role of raising issues has already been played out in this election and should no longer concern me. In other words, I now believe Occupy has already filled the shoes of a third party candidate by forcing issues being ignored onto the national stage.
As I see no reason to waste a vote solely to play spoiler. The choice is easy.
I'm with you. Let's make the R's fall.
That's sort of how I get here, too, I think the GOP is so out of touch and have their heads stuck so far that with a little help they will implode, then, the constitution being what it is, a real chance will emerge, not for a third party but for a new party.
You have such a romantic, rosy view of the world.
well it's really just survial either the GOP goes or the country does, so either way things change
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I'm with you. The lesser evil is still evil. Vote 3rd party. Remember - Ross Perot got 19% of the popular vote, even AFTER he dropped out of the race because of threats on his family. He was a contender though, had he stayed in.
Another option is Americans Elect
http://www.americanselect.org/
The only problem is:
"It's not the vote that counts. It's who counts the votes." - Josef Stalin
Cheers
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You realize, of course that's not the way it's going to go. At least not in this election cycle.
You will need to make up your mind.
You should read the whole thing. Very interesting.
I'm not giving up on this election cycle, because there are enough people that don't bother to vote or settle for the lessor evil, that could be swayed to a form of protest vote.
When you feel as I do, which I can describe as a two party system that is actually one party giving the voters two options, I don't worry that Romney will "hurt" us any more than Obama. We still have work to do awakening people.
Remove your religious filter.
To accept that they are both evil. is to accept that we are evil.
It's a question of who is attempting to put us on the correct path and who is attempting to prevent it.
It's the (R) trying to prevent it. Just look at what they are doing in the States and their relationship to ALEC.
Strongly disagree with your statement, "To accept that they are both evil. is to accept that we are evil." We can change the word evil to something else if you like. I lived most of my 55 years believing in a two party system, now it seems clear that politics in America are manipulated to give advantages to certain people, and that the two "choices" are a form of deceit designed to prevent us from revolting.
Really? Show me 916 anti women's right bills passed by Democrats.
The (R)epelican'ts have passed those bills.
Show me Democrats usurping legally elected representatives.
(R)epelican'ts are doing that.
Show me Democrats breaking historical records for stonewalling.
(R)epelican'ts are doing that.
Yes Virginia, there IS a difference.
It's not about evil. It's about Anti-American policy.
(R)epelican'ts are doing that.
The game is designed to give us false hope that the democrats would solve these and other problems. I no longer believe that. Democrats may talk and even act differently but they have the same puppet masters as the republicans.
That may be, but you haven't shown it.
No one has proven it, because the proof isn't there..
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This doesn't show me. It's repeat of what you already said.
Now please, show me.
Why didn't problems like you mentioned get solved when the democrats had control of the Presidency, the Senate and the House? Oh wait, it must have been because of the filibuster game.
I would like to have the hopes you have for the democratic party, but I don't
You're still not answering the question.
I will attempt to answer yours, after you answer mine.
He's a political hack, possibly a politician himself. You are wasting your time.
Yes, Republicons are quite the cancer of society nowadays.
I can remember years ago when I first saw a conversation between these two guys. I was very impressed, they were having a discussion, very civil, but heated, passionate you could say. And they dug into the workings (or not) of Congress at a depth of detail I had never heard. I said to myself, these guys should be the prototype legislators. They know all of the issues and they understand the rules, all of the players and their personalities, and where all of the bones are buried. The ultimate insiders with consciences. They have done a lot for this country, and could have done so much more.
Totally Agree
Stephen King: Tax Me, for F@%&'s Sake!
I love this guy. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/30/stephen-king-tax-me-for-f-s-sake.html?fb_ref=article&fb_source=home_oneline
In spite of his unhinged writing, Stephen has always been a standup guy.
A modern day Poe, or Lovecraft, without all the opium.......:)
http://coalitionofsocialmovements.blogspot.com http://coalitionforsocialchange.wordpress.com
http://www.esquire.com/features/young-people-in-the-recession-0412
The reason that no republicans came out to denounce Mr. West is because there are no Senator Margaret Chase Smiths (R Maine) in the republican party anymore. In 1950, she was the first to speak out against McCarthy's reign of terror when she said, "..I do not want to see the republican party ride to political victory on the Four Horsemen of Calumny--Fear, Ignorance, Bigotry, and Smear."
The actual reason, I believe, is that they have become dedicated followers of Ayn Rand.
They are in effect libertarians, or as I prefer to call them in their World wide range. Neolibertarians
They ceased to be republicans, long ago.
Add to that, the neoliberals, or ....tarians are in the democratic party too. Still though the repubs have no one like Margaret Chase Smith who put her humanity ahead of party, or ideology. She is one of my heroes for having done so.
Yes, there are Dems pushing neoliberal economics, yet the loins share is to be found on the other "side".
The real Neolibertarians are in the corporate "community" and they are steadfast in their belief in Rand.
An excellent article should be enough to make anyone who truly cares about our goals, pluck their heads from the sand and realize we must remove all republicans to the very best of our ability; it really is our only hope.
It's not the only hope, but it is the best place to start.
Keep pointing out to everyone who will listen, the nefarious activities of ALEC, and those that fund it.
ALEC is starting to show cracks, I would like to raise the concept that money should not be allowed to purchase anything it wants, because some things are degraded and cheapened by allowing them to be purchased, like education and government.
ALEC is still plenty powerful, don't kid yourself, they will not go down easy, not with 2,000 (R)epelican'ts signed in.
You are the problem for shifting the problem to the party..
Democrats, republicans...they are fill with scumbags.
Yeah, except that ain't the case.
Republicans are half of the 99%. Does Occupy represent the 99%? Or is Occupy a club for Democrats?
This has nothing to do with the thread.
Read the article.
It's an opinion column, not an article, and only half of it is available online for free. And in the first half, it says that "they", Republicans, have moved outside of the mainstream. So then how do you explain this?
Nothing I can about the WPs greed, but you are hung up on a single point and it has little do with gist of op ed.
Care to comment on that?
I did. If Republicans have moved so far out of the mainstream then why do they control the house and why do about as many people identify as Republicans as identify as Democrats? I know that you, specifically, think that Republicans are your enemy. But half of Americans don't agree.
According to whom?
Do you really believe in polls?
We can round and round, about the reasons. In fact I have many times .
You still didn't address the gist of commentary.
What gist? You haven't even read the whole article. Half of it is behind a pay wall. If you mean that Republicans suck, I'm already aware that you think so.
That's because they do suck.
916 anti rights bills and counting. And so much more.
And yet, about as many people identify with the Republican party as with the Democrat party. You hate half of the 99%.
No.....That's not what I said.
I hate (R)epelican'ts.
You still didn't answer the question.
Are you going to play the usual game of never answer until the thread runs out?
His is a valid charge. Why don't you stop squirming and answer it?
Do the research on 7 months of my posts, and you'll find I already did.
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Do a search on 7 months of his occupy appearances and you wont find shit
So now you're turning to personal attacks?
I've been to my local occupy, and guess what?
Liberals abound. Actual union folks too.
Some dyed in the wool anarchists too, but yeah, lot's of (R)epelican't hating dems.
So now everybody but you is an ass?
Which city are you from again?
Up here in snow country, where (R)epelican't activity is cutting another wide swath of destruction.
A lot like Florida, except we notice.
Now, would you kindly answer my questions?
You tease - you know you are gona drive him crazy.
I'm sorry....:-)
Liar {:-])
He's the one teasing for another chance to insult me and where I live.
I've addressed most of his issues, explained myself clearly and he's chosen not to respond and let those comments drop off the list.
I just think he likes you and like a kid in grade school is expressing it poorly.
You demonstrate a lot of patience.
Nice of you to play a game of hot potato - I think he is lonely.
It's just a game of chase the truth..........:)
He's ill prepared, but it takes time to learn the game.
You are so patient. Good man.
He'll just drop it and start another thread.
Chickenman, bwack, bwack, bwack, bwaaack.
Rinse, lather, repeat. Kind of like Karl Rove.
Betrayal sucks the brown spot. Yes it is good to be trusting but it is ok to be careful as well.
You think he ever considered the fact that you might not want to advertise to freely and place a target on your back?
I once told a guy here some very personal stuff, and he attacked it.
Lesson learned.
I did hound him the hell out of here though.
I didnt know Snow Country was a city.
What city again?
I'm sorry, you're penchant for insulting people keeps me from saying it yet again.
You've made clear your feelings for those that don't go along with everything you say.
Besides, if you'd been paying attention, you'd already know. It's not like I'm new here.
So now would you please answer at some of my questions? I did after all ask you first and you have a penchant for refusing to answer questions.
You don't even have the balls to say which spot you go to, do you?
I smell a rat....
Get your nose out of your armpit.
It was YOU who didn't respond to my post about Neolibe(R)tarians.
It is you who lacked the balls to accept the truth.
It's you who rarely comments on threads about (R)epelican't malfeasance, and even then it's a quick FU and off to your repetitive commentary.
It's you who calls the 99% asses, not me.
And it is you who cannot say where he goes.....What are you hiding?
People like you without the courage to state the most obvious things always get used by the corrupted at the top.
What are you hiding? The truth?...
I ain't hiding a damn thing. I do get tired of repeating myself though, and that's pretty much all you do.
Like I said, if you'd been paying attention, you'd already know.
It's not my fault you don't.
So for you, it's now rinse, lather, repeat?
You're fraud, and an establishment hack.
You dont support Occupy X or you would say you do, because you would be proud.
And you clearly arent. If you had any balls you would just say it. You dont'. You sure you arent a politician?
Which camp Shooz?
Why should I respond to a fraudulent hack that calls the 99% asses?
That would make you the fraud, along with your love of austerity.
But what the hell, I'll give you a big ol' clue.
Teabaggers raised my taxes.
Now, if your powers of political observation are as good as you claim, you already know the answer.
Would please explain your purpose in calling the 99% asses?
Do you, or do you not, consider yourself one of the 99%?
PS, You've been avoiding answering this simple question ever since you posted that thread.
One word, shooz, the name of the place, thats all.
You've been dodging this one since Ive been here, and thats longer than you (but I do realize you are older than I am).
One word shooz- city is .................. (insert camp).
Cant do it, can you?
You just failed to do the research.
Why should I answer your foolish question, when you've failed to answer any of mine?
Now go ahead. Rinse, lather, repeat.
You still posting? I thought they arrested you in Cleveland.
Your check ain't never gonna clear.
Give up Mike, you know not what you say.
You know not what you do.
How'd you get out? Did the teamsters spring you?
Spring me? What the hell are you talking about?
Have you finished that fifth yet?
Not yet. Still working on it.
To "spring" someone means to get them out of jail. I assumed the Feds were still holding you. They should have moved you to the psych ward.
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Lets just say it. Obama is the problem along with the Senate. OWS is a fake cowardly movement that has gotten smaller with each GA decision not to go after the source for fear of pissing off Soros and the SEIU. Bunch of losers!! Go back to mommy's house and take a bath!! Hahaha
It's the (R)epelican'ts, silly.
They don't want it in the news.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/09/gop-rep-we-cant-allow-more-coverage-of-occupy-wall-street/
Ain't they a slimy bunch?
The liberal Democrats control the Media. Where the hell have you been?
Except, they don't. Unless you are FLAKESnews.
Let's just say SHooz is a problem
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SLIGHT CORRECTION...
Let’s just say it: The Democrats and the Republicans are the problem:
http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/01/13/freedom_to_fascism_redux_a_timeline_of_recent_us_history
http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/01/04/american_elections_false_choices_hiding_other_false_choices
Very slight indeed and lacking in facts.
Find me all the anti-union legislation dems have enacted, compared those of the (R)epelican'ts.
I dare ya.
My Favorite Tweets About The Corporate Controlled Demopublican Puppets:
About the Republicans:
The point of the #GOP is to make the elitist #Democratic party seem like a desirable alternative to would-be radicals.
https://twitter.com/#!/RadicalLeftist/status/193929148547338241
About the Democrats:
Democrats and "99% Spring" listen carefully: One cannot simultaneously be the problem and solve the problem.
https://twitter.com/#!/Mike_Peake/status/193748509009256449
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All great American movements go to the democratic party and DIE.Beware Occupy.
That's because the (R)epelican'ts work so hard to kill anything at all progressive.
They spend billions in corporate dollars to kill all progressive bills.
Both are complicite in crimes against the American people.I think it is called Treason.
Yeah sure, but Nixon was the first to get away with blatant treason.
And now a days?
Please show me 916 anti women's rights bills enacted by Dems?
Please show me 2,000 Dems that rely on a single entity, like ALEC to write legislation.
Please show me Dems who have "forced" duly elected representatives from office and replaced them with cronies.
You can trash talk all you want, but there are still very real differences.
Ask someone in Afganistan about your very real differences.
Whatever, you didn't show me.
You just tried to change the subject.
Democrats and Republicans are the two sides of the same corporate-controlled and totally corrupt coin. Forget Obama and Romney. Forget voting in rigged elections with predetermined outcomes: The only real change will come with REGIME CHANGE.
You didn't prove a thing. You didn't show a thing.
C'mon big mouth. Show something besides repetition.
You got nothing punk, nothing.
YOU are complaining about repetition? What a (D)umbocrat.
Whatever, it won't mean a thing to WallStreet.
That's where the "regime change" needs to take place.
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Democrats and Republicans are the two sides of the same corporate-controlled and totally corrupt coin. Forget voting in rigged elections with predetermined outcomes: The only real change will come with REGIME CHANGE.
You can't prove a thing. You didn't prove a thing.
You didn't show any understanding.
PS Regime change happens every election. that's what they're for.
You are an idiot, shooz. A complete and total idiot.
That may be, but I'm still correct, and you aren't.
You just enjoy (R)epelican't treason.
Democrats and Republicans are the two sides of the same corporate-controlled and totally corrupt coin. Forget Obama and Romney. Forget voting in rigged elections with predetermined outcomes: The only real change will come with REGIME CHANGE.
I'm still correct and you're not.
The REGIME CHANGE, is what you "right wingers" have been bitching about, and bitching about.
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You are a racist.
Based on what, from how many days ago?
You aren't very lucid.
The only reason you don't like Allen West is that he is black.
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Liberals/Democrats home of the open minded, unless you disagree with them
Just because you disagree, doesn't mean you are correct.
(R)epelican'ts are the MAIN problem. the lions share of it.
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I find it astonishing that this is even being raised the day before May Day when undoubtedly we will see the police departments of municipal Democratic administrations come down on us like a ton of bricks. They will undoubtedly be advised by officials from the Department of Homeland Security and the Justice Department both administered by a Democratic Administration, a Democratic Adminstration that continues to expand the American empire abroad, that continues foreign wars, that continues Guantanamo, that continues to keep Bradley Manning in solitary confinement for two years now. These are just off the top of my head and this is what a Democratic Adminstration is doing right now. As the expression goes, "with friends like these...." Of course in no way do I support the Republican Party nor does any other Occupy activist of whom I am aware, but to see the Republican party as the main problem when in fact it is the Democrats who control the Administration, half of Congress and many municipal administrations is simply not looking at the facts. The strongest such argument that can be made is that the Republicans would be worse, a counterfactual that can't ever be proved one way or the other, but even given that, it ignores exactly how bad things are right now where the Democratic Party controls significant portions of the political process especially at the municipal and foreign policy level.
That sounds good on paper, but one more time now, show me 916 anti women's right bills enacted by dems.
Show me the 2,000 dems taking marching orders from ALEC.
Good luck with that.
This is not a useful pissing contest. How many busted heads and Occupiers in jail are worth how many marginal legislative improvements? Ultimately it comes down to the old labor question, which side are you on? And that's not about which side are you on in some genteel legislative debate. It's about which side are you on facing down cops in the street.
I'm on the side of labor and always was.
Card carrying as a matter of fact.
But whatever, it still doesn't address the ALEC question.
What it addresses is what Occupy is all about. I was at the May Day events in New York. I talked to dozens of Occupiers. Right or wrong the fact is that none of them had any affinity for the Democratic Party. It should go without saying that they don't see the Republican Party as an alternative. The point is, Occupy is very self consciously, for better or for worse, a direct action movement. I personally happen to agree with that and believe that any efforts to move Occupy as a movement in an electoral direction at this moment would be catestrophic to the movement. It may be prepared to take an electoral stance in the next election, or perhaps not. The point is, now, in my evaluation, it is not. What is more important is that, for better or for worse, this is the general consensus among Occupy activists. I suspect most Occupy activists will vote and many if not most of them will vote Democratic, the rest will probably vote for some third party. More importantly no Occupy activist that I know of will do anything in the electoral arena this cycle except vote and who they vote for will be an individual choice, not a movement decision. Anyone who is distressed by this would probably be more comfortable at a MoveOn forum or something similar.
So you didn't notice any of the union people around?
The participating unions claimed that 30,000 of their members participated, which seems like a reasonable estimate to me, though most of the union participants did tend to be activists and more left wing than the average member. Of course that is a very unscientific observation, but I did talk to a number of unionists on the march. I personally marched with the New Jersey Industrial Union Council. My glib observation about that is, first, while many unionist support Occupy, Occupy and the labor movement are anything but co-terminous. Also, having said that, it is my observation as a retiree who frequently talks to union activists that union members themselves are becoming increasingly embittered and cyncial about the Democratic Party, a perspective, which is no doubt helped along by the existence of Occupy as an independent forces clearly to the left of existing dominant electoral alternatives.
Most of the union folk that have moved away from Democrats have done so due to the lies told by entities like the NRA. This is not a new phenomenon.
Most solid union folk are still very much Democrats.
democrats need to be union members
democrats need to stop war
That was not my experience after several days in NYC in OWS. I am by no means suggesting that any significant number of union leaders are prepared to start a labor party, but there is support and support. I can't speak of what was going on beyond the demonstrations, though I would suspect that what you say is true, though not with the enthusiasm you suggest. That is, the vast majority of passive union members undoubtedly vote Democratic, but not with all that much enthusiasm.
For the activists, though, the sort of people who showed up on May 1, it is a different matter. First of all, while they are a clear minority, virtually ALL the radical unionists showed up and they have been for independent political action for the last hundred years. But leaving aside a few hundred extremely active sectarians, even ordinary union militants seemed to me to be far more skeptical of the Democratic Party than was the case in the past and this was not because they were iching to go deer hunting in the Poconos. They had a comprehensive set of beefs whichg go all the way up to the top of the union leadership. The Obama administration has basically done nothing on labor's own political agenda. This retreat on the part of neoliberal Democrats goes back at least as far as Clinton's passage of NAFTA and really back to Carter who basically iced labor out of the White House, or at least that is what I have been told by various national union presidents.
Of course official labor will endorse the Democrats. My point is there is a definite change in mood. Of course a labor party is not on the agenda for next week or next month or even next year. But increasingly labor supports Democrats with increasing anguish, because it lacks both the guts and the imagination to do otherwise.
All that said, while I do find this an interesting discourse. I also find it irrelevant to what this forum should be about and I am clearly at fault for continuing to participate in it. Occupy is a direct action movement. As such electoral politics, any electoral politics, are irrelevant to its activities and people who draw us into such discussions I think are trolls intent on disrupting the central organizing ethos of Occupy in terms of both what I read on its web site and the typical Occupy activist that I have interacted with at Occupy events. Having done that recently I find most of the contributions on this forum absolutely poisonous to the movement.
My point, if I may be succinct, is that supporters of OWS are by and large liberals.
Liberals, by and large vote Democratic.
This forum, is by and large, for supporters. Therefore there are a lot of Democrats involved.
So many seem to have a problem with that.
I don't.
Indeed, if you want to see this movement fail, continue to alienate as many co-operative aligned groups as possible.
Those groups are legion and the "right" fears that alignment more than anything you can imagine.
Anything.
First of all a distinction needs to be made between Occupiers and supporters. In my experience most Occupiers are politically unformed and as such tend to be strongly influenced by the anarchist currents that initiated the movement. Occupy "supporters" on the other hand tend to be liberal dilletantes that inappropriately hang out on this forum and for the most part don't know shit from shinola about what it is they thing they support. They don't even bother to read the home page of this fucking web site for christ's sake which very clearly says that Occupy is a revolutionary movement. If that is the case, then what the fuck are a bunch of liberals doing fucking around on this site except to act as trolls when they should be over on MoveOn with their liberal buddies.
I have a lot of criticisms of the tiny minority of anarchists and people influenced by the anarchist intellectual tradition who tend to dominate the movement, especially with regard to their consciously sloppy decision making processes. That said they remain the best organizers in the movement and in fact are responsible for recruiting most of the liberals who carp about the sectarianism of anarchist leadership.
Occupy has energized virtually every other social movement, but it is not the same as those movements and it was able to energize them precisely because it was both independent of them and to their left.
Occupy faces 57 varieties of dangers to its continued independent existence and growth, but the greatest of these in my opinion is the probablility of being captured by the Democratic Party.
Succinct, isn't your forte.
If you want to say fuck your supporters, you've already failed.
You did say that didn't you!!
And to think this "conversation" , started out being about (R)epelican'ts passing anti womens rights legislation, and you were supposed to show me the equivalent from the left.
You couldn't do that.
So now you say ? FUCK ME
Because I'm a liberal?
You're a fool, or a plant.
Your "choice".
As such electoral politics, any electoral politics, are irrelevant to its activities and people who draw us into such discussions I think are trolls intent on disrupting the central organizing ethos of Occupy in terms of both what I read on its web site and the typical Occupy activist that I have interacted with at Occupy events. Having done that recently I find most of the contributions on this forum absolutely poisonous to the movement.
100% on the money
Thats true but I have no idea why the democrats have been pissing all over the unions for decades.
That ain't nothing compared to the tremendous dump the (R)epelican'ts are still taking on them, and have been for many more decades
It's apples and oranges.
The lesser of two evils is still evil. Why would you continue to vote for the same people when this is what it has got you? At least the Republicans are honest about it. The Democrats demand campaign cash and then pass free trade agreements.
Huh?
Now you drag religion into it?
WTF does that have to do with the (R)epelican'ts dedicated union busting?
May I ask how old you are?
I'll tell you. After you tell me, what difference it would make.
Besides, if I recall correctly, and I do, I asked YOU 2 questions that went unanswered.
That seems to be a disease particular to (R)epelican'ts.
And what about all those free trade agreements he passed and the claim that he would renegotiate nafta?
I'm not a republican a democrat or what passes for liberatarian in this country. I'm in my mid thirties. I dont believe anything in my previous post has any religious connetations and I myself am not particularly religous. The republicans are dedicated to union busting but what have the democrats done to thwart this recently? I know Obama streamlined union elections or something like that or at least thats what I have heard but was'nt he supposed to march wiith workers if their rights were ever in jeporedy and what happened to employee free choice act?
I'm pushing for making election national and state holidays
so what? Why is that at all important? It seems like a rather trivial issue to me given the levels of American imperialism, the disparities of wealth, unemployment, homelessness and indebtedness. We will solve these problems in the streets, not in sedate legislative chambers.
Can't argue with that guy. He is to genius what hipsters are to social evolution, a wannabee.
You can argue with anyone. You choose not to and there is a difference. Occupy is a direct action movement. As such regardless of how important they are to individuals or even in the scheme of things, matters relating to electoral politics and the legislative process are really outside the purview of Occupy.
because more people will vote
and when the vote they care more about the actions of their government
Voting for what? One of the two parties of the 1%? Fuck that. If you actually participated in Occupy you would see just how pointless and irrelevant most Occupy activists think voting is.
I didn't get that from the crowd
You actually saw people who were openly talking about supporting Democrats in November? I suspect there are more than some. But I didn't see anyone actually talking about it, much less wearing Democratic Party buttons.
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I am coming around to believe this perspective. This is institutional corruption. Supporting democrats simply because the republicans are worse won't get rid of the corruption. The focus must be on changing the process and not just the players.
Man, the trolls are working this don't vote, or throw away your vote on a third party thing doubletime!
Look, its the three Democratic politicians, all lined up at one time!!
Three war loving, vote for the establisment suckers, all patting each other on their backs....
How cute.
And how sad.
Look! It's the Neolibertarian sympathizer.
We should have austerity, especially the older people.
You seem to even want WallStreet to crash their pensions.
Because videos of walmart show that the 99% is made up of ( in your own words) asses.
Like the rest of the libe(R)tarians in here. You lack empathy for your fellow men, and women.
And you've never come up with a damn thing the (R)epelican'ts are doing in Florida.
You a Jim Norman fan too?
He's real winner. The guy that made certain photographs a felony.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/jim-norman-the-mud-spattered-white-knight/1216940
http://www.vegsource.com/news/2011/03/florida-law-would-make-it-a-felony-to-photograph-factory-farms-even-if-not-trespassing.html
Show me the Dem in Florida that did something like that.
Real muckraker you are.
Looks like Norman is a real shit head. Im not suprised, seems how he swears his loyalty to one of two pro war parties.
What do you expect?
Bill Nelson has list of bullshit a mile long, including his enthusiastic signing of the most recent NDAA piece. Rubio is just another shit head in the making, total "yes-man" man. Kathy Kastor hasnt made a stand on anything substantial since Ive been here. Charlie Christ was registered R, but they all called him a D, and the D all hated him, so he obviously doesnt have any fans. And dont even get me started on that fuckin loon Allen West.
There's really no need for me to go into too much Republican bashing on this site, its OWS. But I do need to check sheep like you in your tracks from poisoning the public that they dont have any real choices.
Check my post on party support breakdowns. Its very doable. And it wont be done like older guys like you who have been doing the same thing your entire lives, only to look around now and realize, regardless of who is to blame, that IT FAILED.
What did I expect?
I want you to show me, the legislative equivalent in the "other" party.
I asked for it. You couldn't do it. Then you repeated yourself for the umpteenth time, ad nausium.
It makes really, really hard to take you with ANY degree of seriousness.
Yes Virginia, there are very real and verifiable differences.
You just refuse to see them.
Do you really want me to go and dig up a bunch of shit on Dems? Its the equivalent of digging up research on why the sky is blue.
You keep on attacking the two parties in existence. Some of us are trying to figure out how to change the shit, you are free to join us.
And go to Occupy Detroit with your "Vote Out the Republicans" line. See how warmly you are received. Ive seen many old tired trolls come through Occupy Tampa with the same crap, vote out the Dems, vote out the Reps, and they usually leave shortly afterwards.
I've asked you for very specific things.
You have been unable to provide them.
Plus, like I said before, with you it's not so much what you say, as it is what you don't say and which threads you ":choose" to contribute to.
Here in Detroit, we know all about what the (R)epelican'ts have done, here and in the rest of our State.
We also like our unions and don't mind them helping out. We're not worried about being co-opted, as we know that's just a (R)epelican't talking point.. Not so much in Florida, eh? .
Are they even legal in Florida?
After all, the (R)epelican'ts in Florida have made taking a photograph a felony, and you didn't notice, you didn't even care.
I guess you like that sort of thing.
Take your blinders off son.
Now, back to you and I'm sure it'll be....rinse, lather, repeat.
Nothing has been more destructive to to Detroit than NAFTA. At least thats what a few have told me.
Go contribute to a thread on original solutions, and stop defending one side of a corrupted system.
Your love of cute sayings and sound bites just shows what a media pawn you are. Its infected your mind. Go take a vacation.
So, was that rinse, lather, or repeat?
It was definitely low info.
Low info is what you blind Republican and Democratic supporters love. You certainly dont want to focus on the bigger issue- the two of you's have fucked an entire generation....Your own kids, to boot. Fuckin morons.
Are we going to blindly vote for one party of the other? Only a fuckin moron would do that. Are any young liberals going to support a party that endorses war? No, thats for sick fucks like you, selfish bastards that just dont care.
If I paid attention to every piece of idiotic legislation, I wouldnt have to for much else, like actually participating....something you internet frauds dont understand.
You didn't answer the question.
You didn't answer most of them.
Now you want to play insult games?
You're the fraud. A libe(R)tarian fraud.
You just loved that libe(R)tarian video that was posted the other day.
That makes YOU partisan too, Bubba. So STFU.
You're a fuckin moron shooz. Your entire generation has fucked everything up with your selfish bullshit, so go fuck yourself.
Aw poor little partisan hack.
Just can't swear fast enough at supporters.
Keep it up dim wit. You'll get banned for that sooner or later.
They arent going to ban someone like me because I represent the central concept of this entire thing- REAL CHANGE, CHANGE THE SYSTEMS.
You contribute nothing to the countless posts that look for brainstorming and ideas on how to do that.
You only come in with cute little names for Republicans, and if you have ever been on a conservative site, you will see plenty of idiot republicans with cute little names for democrats.
Your a media pawn, and nothing will EVER change as long as blindly loyal people like you continue to dominate the conversation. Times are changing, and one of our biggest hurdles is beating the media pundits like you.
Your record proves your positions, and your position is keep falling for a divided, 2 party diversion. Just like every other gov does.
You wont get banned, because you arent too passionate about it to lose your temper, but you certainly wont ever be responsible for bringing about change.
That will be your legacy- champion of tired, old ways that gots us in this mess to begin with.
Its played out. Youre so far in last you think youre in first.
You insult supporters at a high rate of speed.
I also recall your anti old folks thread.
You have no empathy.
You've bared your libe(R)tarian soul.
Seems to me a lot of insulting Mr. P supporters got banned.
You could be next.
blue light waves are shorter and reflect off particles in the sky
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Why not just admit you are working for the Republicans. In the Fall either Mitt Romney or Barak Obama will become the President for the next four years. If you can't change that equasion - which is the POINT of OWS and what we ALL want at some point down the line - then you had better make CERTAIN it isn't Romney that's elected AND that the Republicans are thrown out of Congress.
If you really wanted to see this movement survive and thrive, you would see that as plain as day, and you kinow it.
But you don't really want this movement to succeed, do you?
Establishment coverage 24/, just like you like it.
Sorry, but the people I know arent about either one of those candidates.
If you are going to proclaim things, at least go once in a while so you know what the hell you are talking about.
Why are the numbers down again? Oh yeah, because some of you brainwashed sheep actually started going to them, and spreading your tired bullshit. - Im not talking about you, because all you do is post online.
Yeah, the self proclaimed voice of the "actual" movement. Well let me tell you something - whatever you guys are doing down there in South Florida I don't know, but from what I've seen you seem to be forming some sort of right-wing splinter group. Don't tell us that your expierence in South Florida is somehow representitive of Occupy in general.
Half the obvious and undisputed trolls I've seen on this site are coming from South Florida. What's that about?
"right wing splinter group"...
You are too funny. You really are incapable of thinking outside of r vs l terms, aren't you? Dont worry, you arent alone. Theres plenty out there that vote for war candidates like good lemmings.
If Obama, the Dems and Reps decided to bomb the USA, would that FINALLY get you to stop supporting them? What city you in again?
Where do you live again, GypsyKing?
Outer Mongolia, on the extreme Western Border of the Himalayas. I used to live the nomadic life in a yurt, following endless pastures on horseback with a herd of yaks, but my three wives and 27 children converted to Buddhism while I was sleeping, and now we follow a splinter sect of Tibetan Buddhists, who have been lost for seven hundred years from every trace of civilization.
In the evenings, when the stars come out and the wind dies down to a bracing draft as clear as springwater, I light the incense, spin the prayer wheel, and thank the stars above me, sharp as pinpoints, for their whispered knowledge of a celestial harmony beyond the deepest offerings of Walmart.
To funny. Thank you.
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Then you will like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMc8CR6dppc
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Veritat (latin for truth killer?) score (0) zero, got here probably just now, as a new incarnation of some other discredited troll, posts tweets and then uses them as evidence for own argument. Slanders Democrats and will not put forward any LOGICAL reason to vote against Republicans.
Say no more.
Yeah please - no more. Like that's gonna happen - but it was nice to ask(?).
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If you think so little of "karma scores," as I do, then why are all of you trolls now "managing" them with bots and sock puppets. Yes, we are onto that.
I think your tactics are becoming blatantly desperate at this point.
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It's been a major thing for about 3 months, but it has gotten stronger and more vehement.
That's why I always refer them to the States, where the differences are much easier to see.
Thank you. I see a huge Democratic landslide as absolutely necessary, simply to check the long march towards the hegemony of the 0.1111%. This is OBVIOUS to any thinking person, and to say that if you want it, it means you aren't a genuine participant in Occupy, is a damned slander, an outrage, and a see through ploy to support the oligarchy!
I see a democratic landslide as inevitable - what sane person would vote republican at this point in time.
Oh my God, I've asked that question before, and watched them elect a puppet with Alzheimers!
Yeah yeah but when has the opposing party been so blatantly open in their derision of the population?
I really think you're right. I'm just saying I've been surprized in the past, and we can't afford to get complacent - which of course I know that you know.
I do pray and try to do my best to make sure others are also aware. We do what we can and it is making a difference.
It is making a difference. As we engage in this process of seeking out the truth we will bring others down that path with us. If I didn't know that I wouldn't be here:)
Yep it is a good feeling.
Throwing the teabaggers and the ALEC supporters out of the States is extremely important, as that's where support to the feds originates.
Absolutely, we must engage the battle on all fronts.
I don't have any problem saying it. The Republicans are the problem. Anyone who denies it hasn't done their homework. Just let these fascists get voted in this time and you will know what oppression feels like.
You said it! Those trying to tell us that there's no difference between the parties might find themselves licking their wounds if the Damned Republicans get in again. Are our memories that short??
There are differences, sure. But if we're strictly talking corruption and wall street influence, there is little difference. It is fact that Obama kept a number of top people from Bush's administration, most notably Fed Chief Ben Bernanke. New president, different party, pretty much the same corruption.
I understand and agree about Obama. He appeared to be in the hip pocket of Wall St, from the get-go. I would vastly prefer to have a far better candidate than Obama. He is far to the right of me.
And yet, under the Bush Administration, Ted Kennedy was put on a no-fly list as a suspected terrorist. When I say that electing another R. Administration is flirting with fascism, I am NOT exaggerating.
If you had a choice, and were not told to choose between Obama or Romney, who would you pick for president?
To be perfectly honest, I don't know of anyone of sufficient courage, moral character, stamina, and intellectual abilities to hold off the VERY DEEP problems we have incurred by allowing George W. Bush to steal two elections.
That cowardly neglect was so bad, I really think we need something along the lines of a divine being to get us out of the mess we're in now.
We got us into this mess, and we will have to get ourselves out. (We were easily conned by Johnson, Nixon and Reagan, and as the old saying about con-artistry goes, you can't cheat an honest man. In other words, the con artist has to apppeal to the part in most of us that has unexamined, dishonest motives.)
Mitt Romney is another con-man.
Within your comment resides the honest answer to why many feel there is no real difference to the parties. Neither produces what we need. What's the difference.
Need?! Need?! How much do people really want it? They will only produce when we get up off our asses and MAKE them produce. They (the Democrats) will respond and produce when we MAKE them respond and produce. The Republicans will respond as well, but when we really engage in the battle, the Republicans will respond in a way that's adversarial.
This is a BATTLE. That's the whole point. We have to get into the fight.
Sounds like a warmongering speech coming from the right, maybe you have more in common with them than you think.
Don't be absured. I've reiterated my absolute non-violent stance here a hundred times, and it's interesting that you took eight full hours to come up with this lame reply.
Whatever. You can justify your so called peaceful nature however you wish (reread your own words). I won't be losing eight hours of sleep over it anytime soon.
You think politics isn't a battle? I love it when right-wingers use every type of scullduggery and nastiness imaginable in their quest for hegemony, without any scruples whatsoever, and then cry like babys when someone calls them at their game. It's equally amusing and pathetic.
No, politics is not a battle. It is that which precedes battle. Politics is the effort to prevent things from escalating into battles and wars. Please try to understand the distinction.
You are misunderstanding the subtlties of semantics, intentionally I believe.
To JadedCitizen below:
This is becoming a tightwire act. People need to declare where they stand; or to put it another way, as Hamlet said, "When the wind is North by Northwest, I know a hawk from a handsaw."
Why so defensive? I just offered my perspective, which happened to be different than yours. There is no intent beyond that.
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We are already there, what country are you in?
No we're not.
He asked you what country you are in. Why don't you answer him?
Because it's meaningless question.
It's not just National either. I find it's even worse in the States.
Look at what they are doing in Michigan.
My Favorite Tweets About The Corporate Controlled Demopublican Puppets:
About the Republicans:
The point of the #GOP is to make the elitist #Democratic party seem like a desirable alternative to would-be radicals.
https://twitter.com/#!/RadicalLeftist/status/193929148547338241
About the Democrats:
Democrats and "99% Spring" listen carefully: One cannot simultaneously be the problem and solve the problem.
https://twitter.com/#!/Mike_Peake/status/193748509009256449