Forum Post: Lets get something straight
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 10, 2011, 1:54 p.m. EST by Capitalist111
(59)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Its become increasingly obvious that these people are opposed to Capitalism and Free Speech. Some of these people do have a legitimate concern involving bailouts, however a lot of these people are showing what the movement is really about, anti-capitalism, myself I love capitalism because it gives me the freedom to make my own way, to become the best I can be using my abilities and talents. These people would take that away, for some reason they believe that because of my hard work they deserve some of the rewards to it, lets get something straight here, my hard work and what I earned from it, my property and everything else that I have accumulated as a result of that hard work is mine, not yours, you do not deserve a part of what I have earned, it is not yours for the taking and to make this even clearer the day you try to take it will be the day you will regret, I will defend what I have earned by ALL MEANS NECESSARY, once again "BY ALL MEANS NECESSARY".
You would not like capitalism in its rawest form, because there would be very few winners, and neither you nor I would likely be one of them. We had freer markets a hundred years ago -- we also had monopolies, sweat shops, and child labor. It was government regulation that leveled the playing field so that the wealthy did not simply get wealthier at the expense of everyone else.
I'm not talking about that.
No one is talking about taking your hard-earned money. Unless, that is, you are making it illegally, which I doubt. But we are talking about changing the rules of the game, so that instead of the richer getting richer, we can move to where hard working middle income people can flourish.
need to get rid of inflation raise federal wages return to the gold standard stop outsourcing job provide tax incentives for those who hire within the usa.
How are you going to change the system so that we all flourish? Could you explain to me how people who are rich such as Oprah and Bill Gates affect my ability to make money? If you tax all the rich, who decides who gets the money? Should I wait for the government to trickle that money down to me? Once you tax the rich and they no longer invest or make money, where do we turn to get more money to trickle down from the government?
I'm against unfairly taxing one group over others. There are enough conservatives here that a proposal like that will not fly in the long-term. You're going to see people with the own ideas and agendas. It doesn't mean it's something we all embrace.
Only the goals that we all embrace will move forward. That's why it is important for you to bring you and your friends and family into this. We want as many voices as we can, with as a diverse opinion as we can... all staying on the goals that we all can agree on.
For one, we could make it illegal for corporations to tamper with politics. The Supreme Court recently made the screwed-up ruling that corporations have free speech rights just as people do. Corporations are not even mentioned in the constitution and have no claim to constitutional rights, such as free speech. If corporate money was out of politics, then the system could proceed as it should, with input from everyone.
Right, and there is nothing in our constitution that gives our government the right to redistribute wealth.
Right, so because it isn't in the constitution, we should let the country revert to an oligarchy, ruled by a very few? The constitution gives congress the right to decide how to best promote the 'general welfare.'
What we need to do is vote out all the politicians who voted for the bailouts, who provide loopholes for their crony friends, who are corrupt and have been in Washington way to long and love, love, love the power that comes with it. It seems to me you like oligarchies. Your protest is being run by the oligarchy. The same people who are in power and voted for bailouts and are in bed with the banks and the corporations are marching with you and praising you. All the rich people are praising you. If the rich people really wanted to give up more money for taxes they wouldn't use the loopholes given to them by their crony political friends would they? So why are the politicians and the super rich for these protests? It's kinda creepy if you ask me.
I'll open with commenting that I do not have the answer to my own questions:
When I was a kid, I was the "Alex Keaton, of Family Ties" in my family - the Republican entrepreneur in a family of NeoCons. I was off to conquer the business world. I got my MBA from U of Chicago, the bastion of the free market philosophy.
I hated the corporate world, dropped out, created my own American Dream business, and doing very well, thank you.
But I find myself now at 56 finding myself to be a budding Socialist, and asking myself big questions, like "what da fck is it all about"? Don't we ALL just want a comfortable lifestyle? A certain amount of "stuff"? A good level of quality services like education, health care and entertainment?
Lately I believe it's only a theory that a capitalistic system grows to provide (good) jobs for everyone who wants one. And no, not everybody can go out there and create their own business/job. And we have this system that says "if you can't figure out "money", then you don't eat". And yes, we have the socialistic part of our society which works as a "safety net" to provide "stuff" and services to those who can't figure out "money".
Lastly I really don't think this OWS is about the relative distance between the 99% and the 1%. It's about the absolute value of the lower 20%. If the lowest income household in the USA were bringing in $40K per year, nobody would care if there were lots of $millionaires and a few $billionaires in the mix.
I am not a Socialist and never will be one and will fight to stop it even if it means giving up my life.
Really?
So when you are say 67, you won't take a Social Security check? How about sign up for Medicare?
well before you give up your life, do understand that the fire and police departments that save your life are part of our system that is socialistic. There are counties who have gone to "for pay" fire protection and a few instances where firefighters watched houses burn down because the owner was not paid up for their services. Is that what you want for police and fire departments?
if everyone made 40k per year then a trip to burger king would cost 100.00 for a family of 4. Forget Ruths Chris. You think Disney World is expensive now? wait until the person wearing the Winnie the Pooh costume is making 40k. Gonna cost a family of 4 10k to go. That is hard economic facts.
I was assuming "all other things being equal". The point of the story is nobody would be protesting the top 1% if the bottom 1% was at a higher level.
Capitalism now, is totally dependent on corruption, war, occupation and spoliation. so what will you do when you realize that this regime has always been steeling a noticeable portion of your hard work?
No it doesn't, there are still many many small independent owned business in the US who provide needed products and services to people.
Yes, but will those places ever be as rich as corporations, no.
And this isn't about capitalism. This is about the rich controlling the power so they can get richer. You can't make money off of lives and our country. I love capitalism for the same reasons, doesn't mean I support the lack of regulations big businesses have. They are destroying the foundations of out country.
Also, it is becoming "increasingly apparent" because Media are increasing their coverage of A FEW protestors who have some anti-capitalist ideas. Doesn't mean we all do.
Note: this poster joined today but gives the impression he has looked at many posts...no body reads that fast....this is a shill.
Idaltu : if u'r telling that about me, let me tell u that i really concerned . That made me to read about it all over before i joined here. i'm looking forward to strengthen my knowledge about the movement and the expectations as to help in the wide spread of its notification, and in anything else helpful that i can i can. i'm from Lebanon and i'm doing my best in protests all over the Arab countries, initiating from Sidi Bozaid Tunsia to the syrian revolution. It's a small world and capitalism makes life impossible worldwide!
There seems to be a huge misunderstanding about Occupy Wall Street being about ending capitalism. It's simply untrue...the movement is not about ending capitalism or taking someone else's wealth from them. It is about getting monied special interests out of our politics....in other words....ending the ability of the wealthy to buy off our elected officials...ending corruption of the political process...which...let's be honest...is common practice of rich wall street lobbyists. Also...it's about unrigging wall street.Restoring Glass-Steagel...ending crooked investment schemes and unfair trading advantages. Personally I am all for capitalism and would fight to the death to preserve it.....but is must be a game that everyone can play without unjust advantage over another.
I like capitalism, it works. I wish we had a capitalist system supported by a government for and by the people. Instead what we have is comparable to a monopoly board game where the rules can be changed by whoever has the most money. Why do we tax capital gains income at a lower rate? Here's how it works: If you own a company, you write off anything you buy (no tax). Your wealth increase though because the company is worth more. Then your stock appreciates and you sell your company at guess what, lower tax. When you have a job, you don't get to spend it tax free to increase your wealth. And your income gets taxed at a higher rate. Start a company you might say? Well try to start a company and run it out of your home (like a daycare) and see how the zoning laws stop you. Immigrants used to sell goods in the streets and start businesses. Good luck with that. Kids lemon-aid stands get shut down now. Rich make the laws to protect their wealth. It's not capitalism. Be careful and ask the French what eventually happens in a two class society.
............
نظام لا يولد سوى الحروب و الفقر و التهميش و دمار البيئة الطبيعية و الاجتماعية في كل البلدان، نظام يقوم على النهب و الفساد و التمييز و تسفيه القيم، يجب أن يسقط .. أيتها الشعوب المضطهدة توحدي و احتلي مدن العالم
A regime that only breeds to war, poverty, marginalization and destruction of the natural environment and social development in all countries, A regime which is based on plunder and corruption, discrimination and undermine the values, must fall .. O oppressed peoples unitive, and occupy the cities of the whole world
Un régime qui se reproduit uniquement à la guerre, la pauvreté, la marginalisation et la destruction de l'environnement naturel et le développement social dans tous les pays, un régime qui est basé sur le pillage et la corruption, la discrimination et de saper les valeurs, doit tomber .. O unitive des peuples opprimés, et occupent les villes du monde entier
All that matters for now is that we work to restore the democratic process back to the people, and out of the hands of the current plutocracy.
'Business as usual' will see your money becoming increasingly worthless through inflation whilst the cost of living and taxes continue to rise.
If you are a self made entrepreneur, your sales will decrease as more of the public become too poor to afford your services, as will happen to companies as they continue to outsource and automatize.
Supposing there is a revolution against capitalism, it's very unlikely that you will lose any of your property - the only case would be if you owned excessive amounts of land needed for a specific purpose such as agriculture.
You can try to defend what you have all you want. We are the 99% and we will overwhelm you. For some reason you have this old fashioned notion that wealth should be connected to merit and hard work. Ridiculous. Society creates the wealth, not individuals. It is society's wealth to do with as it pleases. You're just one member. Give it up now.
Nasty threats? "ALL MEANS NECESSARY" lol,. yes we are all scared of your words. We will see how you hold up against the torches and pitchforks..,
The table is tilted the game is rigged. If you get yours in a rigged game does that not make you a cheater,. lets level that playing field.
Which Capitalism? 1950's Capitalism with high marginal tax rates and high regulation and a flourishing, stable middle class?
Or, today's Capitalism with deregulation of the banks; deregulation or no regulation of Wall Street; and the loss of the high marginal tax and loss of the disincentive against paying out all of the corporate profits to the few at the top. Today's Capitalism which has made the economy and markets unstable and removed moral hazard from Capitalism. Today's Capitalism where Wall Street can make risky bets, buy insurance policies on the risky bets, companies sell the insurance policies without having any reserves to pay for them, and the government does not regulate them, and the taxpayers get stuck paying 100% on the dollar for the "insurance" policies.
Capitalism is much more complicated than you think. In unregulated Capitalism people immediately try to cheat to prevent their competitors. They try to create barriers to entry in the market, monopolies, and any other anti-competitive measure to gain an advantage. So, instead of having a superior product, they try to keep away competitors by being anti-competitive.
To have pure competitive Capitalism, you need a lot of regulation. Other wise, you will just end up with monopolies or oligarchies. Or, have taxpayer bailouts because there is no moral hazard and no regulation.
So, which Capitalism do you want -- there is a continuum -- there is no one "Capitalism."
There are communists here, just like there are anarchists. There are going to be people on all sides of the fringe. What we need to do is realize that this movement is bigger than our personal ideology and that we need to keep focused on the things we all agree on.
We need to eliminate corporate money's undue influence in our government.
If your agenda wouldn't be supported by 99% of Americans, then postpone it for now. We have more than enough on our plate right now.
Don't get dragged down by Trolls. Remember HBGary? They were designing social media weapons where they could control numerous sock puppets to cause dissension and spread propaganda.
Thumb up this comment if you agree.
Folks, before anything can be done about the nature of the social system itself, the political system needs to be revisited. Assuming that one prefers democracy then the first, and I would assume most obvious step, would be the creation on several new political parties - both on the right and on the left. One just needs to look at the "revolutions" starting to take place in countries like Germany where the left Green party has won heavily in a conservative state (the home to Daimler-Benz) by showing that leftist thinking is not necessarily in conflict with capitalism. There are ways to work together. In this country all issues are painted in black & white. The US should also look at the Swiss form of direct democracy which weakens the power of the political class in favor of the overall population. It means going to the polls a lot, but that´s a small price to pay to have a say.
Folks, before anything can be done about the nature of the social system itself, the political system needs to be revisited. Assuming that one prefers democracy then the first, and I would assume most obvious step, would be the creation on several new political parties - both on the right and on the left. One just needs to look at the "revolutions" starting to take place in countries like Germany where the left Green party has won heavily in a conservative state (the home to Daimler-Benz) by showing that leftist thinking is not necessarily in conflict with capitalism. There are ways to work together. In this country all issues are painted in black & white. The US should also look at the Swiss form of direct democracy which weakens the power of the political class in favor of the overall population. It means going to the polls a lot, but that´s a small price to pay to have a say.
and anti war
http://occupywallst.org/forum/no-war/
Again, someone misses the bigger picture and subtle nuances to this matter, by focusing instead on their own self interest and pretending that this is about them and their precious money.
You and all of us would be better off if these orthodox modes of thinking in regards to socio-economics, were done away with. Any prosperity you've enjoyed here was not solely due to your own hard work, but also relied on the hard work of others and the circumstances afforded to you which allowed you to prosper.
Every man is not an island, America is not a planet and there are far more important things in play that your ability to pat yourself on the back and roll around in your money.
I guess you should find some more crazies like you that think 1950s type capitalism and private industry magically creates freedom and jobs. The rest of us, some, who I might add grew up in Russia post-1990s, know that capitalism is only a system that promotes a vast disparity of wealth with a few on top accumulating and the rest begging for scraps.
We teach toddlers in preschool the value of sharing. Sad that lesson was so lost on you.
LOL. I love these threads where people threaten to kill us. Apparently our movement is gathering attention =)
Please tell me what is so "anti-capitalist" in the list of eight (8) demands.
Here is the list: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/
Thanks.
I do not have a problem with those, I have a problem with the far left radical element in your movement.
Please support those demands and STAY in this debate. We need YOUR point of view because you are in the 99% just as much as the "radical far left." . You are blessed that your business is not affected by large corporations. I am a bankruptcy lawyer. I represented small businesses that were wiped out by a Walmart that moved in. (Small local markets, small clothing shop, an electronics store, a car parts store, etc.) I represented a small store that was wiped out when two 7-11s moved in (one of which moved in across the street and the other which moved in down three blocks.) I also represented three small companies that supplied 7-11 and were wiped out when 7-11 filed bk and did not (ever) pay its bills.
. Business is important. Monopolies are not so great for business, especially when politicians are in their pockets - protecting them from competition.
Well, right now, this is the culmination of demands ATM. The list was much longer in the beginning. I wish I had copied it because there were a few demands that I thought were pretty good, but they were "left on the cutting room floor."
"Its become increasingly obvious that these people are opposed to Capitalism and Free Speech."
That's as far as I need to read.
Thousands of people holding open mic speeches to address public concern and using their Constitutional right to freely assemble are against "Free Speech"?
Would you like me to point out people who you movement has shouted down and would not allow to speak.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QZlp3eGMNI
I have more if you like.
You mean the man that the public voted that they didn't wish to hear him speak? Please, I'd like to see more.
that whole thing was very disturbing - the so-called leader wouldn't let anyone clap or speak out to address the group. grown adults were waving their hands, waiting to be acknowledged like their were in kindergarten. and the creepy leader kept saying that they had to 'have a consensus about our agenda'. Talk about groupthink or the hive mind. in the end, they didn't even allow the guy to speak, even though most of them wanted him to because the leader was trying to force everyone to have a 100% consensus. freaky. this is collectivism in action.
Turning the whole thing into a rich vs poor is a typical political move to divert attention from the real issues. I guess they are trying to do their best to do that. I hope OWS doesn't get hijacked by them.
What the hell are you talking about? This forum is a wide variety of people with many divergent ideas. You seem to focus on one particular brand. And what's with the attitude? Or are you trying to drive wedges between people and inflame emotions...sort of like a political shill.
I'm stating what I mean, what is mine is mine and you or your movement have no right to it.
Troll
Afraid not.
name calling is violent so lets keep it peaceful.
The slickest move the rich ever made was to fuck over poor people and convince the poor, to blame other poor people. 30 years of Tax Breaks made them Billionaires. Did it "Trickle Down"?. Have the SALARIES and BENEFITS of the labor force been improved proportionately to the increase in wealth of the super rich, who wouldn't have that wealth if it wasn't for the blood and sweat of their workers and the environment of the free market? #OURBAILOUT
I seriously doubt your poor, the poor don't use internet.
but they can steal your wi fi
No one is going after anyone who has earned anything legitimately. I don't know how people are getting this message. fox news? And why make threats at people who are holding peaceful protest to defend freedom and get money out of our political system? You sound so angry and I just don't get it.
I'll tell you how. Many of the posts here are about Marxism and socialism.
People without jobs are not the only ones that are angry and upset. You see only 50% of the US population pays any taxes. So the other 50% is pissed off. Forget about the so called 1% for a minute.
The average family having 2 wage earners, a couple of kids and a house in suburbia are getting crushed! They pretty much give away half their income to the govt.
So they are pissed off and want many of the same things this movement wants, but they are very leery of socialism and Marxism and rightfully so.
You best start looking at just who is attending your protest.
you are a fear based individual which is understandable. you are a product of this fear based culture. It's sad that you really think people are going to come after your things. It is also painfully apparent that you are incredibly right sited. You attack the left. I have not seen you attack the right. We support neither because they are both screwing us. I am glad that you have not had to feel the crushing pinch that most of the world is feeling right now. We wish for no one to have to suffer in poverty not to take things away from people. Maybe you should question your political party and research its corruption. Maybe you should start looking at who is attending the protest. There are over 1000 of them across the globe right now. And it is only 3 weeks old.
I'm in favor of a free and open economy also. I just want to put the crooks in jail. Who can be against that?
As long as you go after the crooks, no problem, but don't include those of us who have earned what we have legitimately.
I'm only after Alex Mozilo, Joseph Cassano, Lloyd Blankfein, and numerous others guilty of fraud.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-people-vs-goldman-sachs-20110511
it always comes back to threats
BTW if you are broke and starving, my I suggest you give up the internet and the computer or whatever is you are on at the movement and prioritize your needs instead of wants.
ill just come and eat at your house
Bud, this isn't a threat, this is a warning, you do not take from those who worked and earned what they have legitimately, if you want to view as a threat, so be it, I will not relinquish what I have earned without a fight.
That's what this movement is all about: fighting against those who dare steal the fruits of your hard earned labor, whether they are the banking powers, the bought government, etc. They steal from you by taxing you, regulating you, inflating your money, telling what to buy, what you can and cannot do with the money you worked hard for. It is my opinion that these protesters are against government tyranny as much they are against corporate tyranny. Have you seen a dime from these bank bailouts? The point is, the banks are getting rewarded for taking risk on your behalf and spending the money you, the taxpayer, gave them and using their riches to influence policy in Washington.
This is why I'm confused. You state have you seen a dime from these bank bailouts, but we have been repaid with interest. Most of the banks did not even want the bailouts, but were forced to take them. Look it up. The banks took risks they didn't want to take because of the American Dream Commitment. Then to totally confuse me, your protests are supported by the same people who voted for the bailouts.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/30/news/economy/tarp_program/index.htm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2001_May_7/ai_74223918/?tag=content;col1
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2003_March_18/ai_98885990/?tag=content;col1
CNN is a joke. The corporate media is the right arm of the elitist ruling class. The feds paid 100 cents on the dollar for the banks' worthless toxic assets, which Americans now own. Trust the Fraudulent Reserve at your own peril.
I don't trust the Federal Reserve and I don't trust the media and I don't trust the government. That is why I don't trust this protest. The White House and the democrats have given this protest their blessing. This is the strangest revolution. A revolution with the backing of the government. WTF?
they are taking it whether you are willing to give it or not sir
Then may god have mercy on this country because you just ushered in the second American Civil War.
It may come to that if the politicians do not respond to the People. The Tea Party and the Occupy movement are just just flip sides of the same coin, if you will. People are recognizing that the government is not for the People anymore. And whether its the government taxing and regulating you, or the banks inflating your dollars, it must end or your prediction will inevitably take place.
do you really have nothing in this world that you care about are you willing to give me your assets? can i sleep in your room can i eat your food...no well then how about i sit i your lawn whining like a baby instead of buying my own food or room or gun thats right guns,gunsgunsgunsgunsgunsguns i have a right to own one is that ok with you... we need live in a society of individuals we must govern our society with that in mind
weed is restricted but any fucknut can buy a firearm and a 40oz, sometimes at the same place, that is some backwards ass shit bro.
The slickest move the rich ever made was to fuck over poor people and convince the poor, to blame other poor people. 30 years of Tax Breaks made them Billionaires. Did it "Trickle Down"?. Have the SALARIES and BENEFITS of the labor force been improved proportionately to the increase in wealth of the super rich, who wouldn't have that wealth if it wasn't for the blood and sweat of their workers and the environment of the free market? #OURBAILOUT
we dont live in a free market society, in a free market society weed would be legal you could buy, i'm just saying i have the right to defend myself smoke weed get drunk as long as i pay for it
as an american taxpayer i HAVE been giving assistance to those who need it whether i want to or not....are you living on pluto?
ok as am i and that doesn't give me the right to your property
its about capitalism REFORM. no hand outs. no free ride for anybody....politicians too....imo.
Like I said if that reform means taking away from me and others who legitimately earned it, OWS, this Country, is going to have a really really big problem.
i agree. shit will hit the fan.... and ows will be blamed. i work and i have no prob supporting others "who can't". it happens. i just think it is unfair how if ONE thing goes wrong, your FUCKED. in DEBIT. downward spiral....no blame, just an observation....
Right on.
I want your stuff Capitalist111. I want ALL of it. And I'm going to take it right out from under your nose... while you are sleeping. And there is NOTHING you can do about it. And you'll be left with nothing... and I will have ALL your stuff. That is MY version of Capitalism.
The second amendment says otherwise.
Don't shoot! Don't shoot!
sounds like capitalism