Forum Post: Let's Face it Folks. Jobs (Wage Slavery) are unnecessary. There is more than enuff for everyone...
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 20, 2011, 12:35 p.m. EST by Bomer
(58)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
But what happens is that industry in it's ever increasing pursuit of profit eliminates jobs through automation. This leads to a lack of jobs and then we are supposed to invent NEW jobs. This happened when farms became more automated causing people to move to cities. They then worked in factories but eventually those jobs became automated and were eliminated as with the auto industry. Etc etc etc...
They don't seem to have any new ideas for creating new jobs so whats the point?
Additionally almost ever country has surplus to sell to other countries. The market is saturated. We have too many goods yet people are starving...
I agree 100%. I think that OWS should talk more about this and bring attention to it. Several people on here spend a lot of time posting about it. Here's a thread I started recently: http://occupywallst.org/forum/jobs-are-becoming-obsolete-due-to-advances-in-tech/
Yes, your thread inspired me to say this on my cable TV show: http://youtu.be/J5n2GwzDadk?t=14m52s
Excellent! We need to get the word out to as many people as possible. What we're saying goes against what people are taught, but it is practical.
Ok, I think that things got a little confuzzled here and I'd like to point something out. Greed is not a human instinct, nor is it a virtue by any stretch. What you see in the animal kingdom is not greed, you don't see animals stockpiling food and not sharing with the pack/herd/whatever. Greed, by definition is the wanton need for all for me and none for you, that's a human thing, and it's only with those that have a severe case of meglomania when it comes to money.
We do have an instinct thought to "create". Whether it's life, or things, we have this drive to create something out of nothing, and there's a degree of satisfaction from it, especially when you see it in use. Someone further down on this thread used Thomas Edison as an example, yes, he held 1000 patents, and is most known for a few of them, but his satisfaction did not come from what he made from his invention, but from the fact that it was being used, and embraced by everyone.
That said, when you create something for the sake of "profit" and that's your driving force, there's the problem. Especially with the driving point by so many that your only as successful as how much you make. This entire thought process is part of the issue.
The old saying goes "they don't make em like they used to", and part of that reason is we have sacrificed quality. There's really no pride in workmanship anymore, it's all about the profit margin.
Why not try to develop a system where there's no focus on how much one makes, but at their workmanship? This has been an idea of mine for quite sometime, and although I've been called naive, I really think that there should be more focus on quality over quantity.
Let me use something simple that everyone can identify with. Take DVD players. They are all priced differently (and most times they are knockoffs of 'name brands' to market to lower incomes), and that's exactly it, we buy what we can afford. What if the focus was shifted to quality. All DVD players cost the same (regardless of who's name is on the label), people would gravitate to whichever one was the "better product".
Although, I will admit, my super naive/geeky side would love to see a world where money wasn't even used, and the drive to better onesself was the driving force of our world, but yeah, that only works for Star Trek :P Flame me all ya want, I don't care, but it would be nice to see.
You're on the right track. Thank you for this. There is hope as long as we remember why people think they need more than a certain amount of money, wealth, or power. These very few individuals have become self-righteous about their greed and justify it by claiming we would destroy incentives to work hard by depriving the very rich of their billions (the wealthiest 400 in America are collectively worth 1.7 trillion dollars, more than 50% of the entire American population combined). All people need health, safety, enough food, shelter, and a social safety net that works. This isn't asking for someone else to pay for my needs. It is asking for a standard of living which is already available but inaccessible by too many due to the greed of a few.
Materialism, greed, and hoarding are also known as affluenza.
I believe that this making as much as possible comes from Protestant work ethic roots. One was considered to be more devout by producing more. But now money has become god.
Agreed, but the saying got lost "money is the root of all evil" which I think is true. And current events being what they are is the proof of that.
That is a misquote the correct quote is "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil."
Hypocrisy has doomed America. Believing ridiculous lies.
Can hypocrites prosper? Are all Americans in a trance? Are they actually as stupid as they act? If any person is completely innocent of the allegation of a crime including child molesting would they pay a settlement to dispose of the charges, or would they welcome a trial in open court?
There are people who are guilty who also go to trial. Sometimes they win the trial. The best example are the 4 cops who attacked Rodney King and the jury acquitted those cops. They had a black prosecutor with Judge Stanley Weisberg who is not only a slimy creep who should give Jews a very bad name because Jews never shun Stanley Weisberg who managed starting a huge riot in LA. Jewish lawyers should know that Weisberg committed a vicious crime by presiding over the trial designed by him to acquit the cops.
Fifty-three people died during the riots including 10 shot dead by the army and police[23] with as many as 2,000 people injured. Estimates of the material losses vary between about $800 million and $1 billion. Approximately 3,600 fires were set, destroying 1,100 buildings, with fire calls coming once every minute at some points. Widespread looting also occurred. (Wikipdedia)
Only pure, rotten hypocrites would condone Weisberg. I watched Weisberg closely in the Menendez trial. Weisberg prevented the option of not guilty for the jury to decide. That is way beyond any constitutional right to a fair trial when the judge condemns the defendants making it impossible for any acquittal. When the SS had cattle cars come to pick up all the Jews, they jumped into them. When the government uses cattle cars to transport an entire group who they hate, they are not going to any place nice. Jumping into cattle cars means you believe any ridiculous lie.
For the Jews to not believe Jesus was the messiah God promised them, is a unique mistake by all the Jews. Being completely wrong about Jesus Christ is a monumental mistake by all the Jews. I once tried to discuss this with Rabbi Stein of Rodolph Sholem synagogue, but the Rabbi became very angry at me. When Jews are completely wrong they get angry. Why would that be insulting? Why can't the facts and reason be discussed with Jews?
Try discussing the evidence that proves Bush conspired with a huge group to rig explosives in the WTC towers and fire a missile into the Pentagon. All Americans go wild. They refuse to learn the president created 9/11. Why would Americans get angry and insulted? So its not only Jews, its 99.99% of all Americans.
When Americans who act weird they also refuse to discuss their weird behavior. Americans are as arrogant as the Jews. They brag they are better than all other people. While there have been wonderful Americans that have accomplished great things, as an entire nation America has become completely nuts. Their idea that they can create bogus trillions of dollars that will solve the economic collapse and refuse any sensible remedies to creating a $203 billion deficit in September. Now they openly talk about reneging on "the trigger" budget that doesn't begin until 2013. America is an openly dead beat country. There isn't 1 American economist who has any clue of the insane, moronic economic plan by the American government.
Slaves in China are fine with all Americans. Preventing any slave made goods to be imported is the constitution that was amended in 1865. The constitution is irrelevant to the United States Supreme Court. That's a proven fact hidden by non-published cases. Not only is the American nation buying most of its goods from slave owners, America has put 50,000,000 American workers out of work. Only weird arrogant hypocrites would ever do that to themselves.
Another know nothing airbag. Greed is definitely a part of the animal kingdom. Male mice will kill other male mice that invade their realm. Bull elk will fight other bull elk to keep their harems. Golden eagles won't tolerate other golden eagles in their territory. Male lions kill other lions babies.
Where'd you guys get all this nonsense?
We are possessed of a level of awareness called "reason." We live in the "Age of Reason." We are capable of using reason to be self-aware enough to live together in relative harmony, to have enough self-knowledge to have insight into our motivations, to make intelligent decisions, to plan, to see beyond religion, and to have a sense of humor. Animals don't do any of these things. Greed is a part of the animal kingdom, and as animals (though highly intelligent) we possess the propensity toward greed as you describe (we are territorial, and desire to expand our territory, etc.). But as highly intelligent creatures, we possess the ability to manage our greed in such a way as to create a sustainable society not only for ourselves, but also for our descendants. In this sense we must be better stewards of the environment, to accept what science reveals, and plan accordingly. Capitalism is built on these precepts.
Is there any species God created that doesn't kill their own kind. Fish don't Elephants don't. Monkeys don't. Bees don't. Fighting isn't killing.
Actually you are incorrect, predator fish eat other fish including their own young, Elephants will fight to the death over breeding rights, monkeys will hunt other monkeys, and bees often go to war and kill the drones when the weather turns cool.
Instinct tells animals to hoard food, bees, squirrels, ants are but three examples of animal hoarding.
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You are naive, hopelessly so, and not particularly well read.
Here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37830165/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/chimps-kill-chimps-land/#.TsyZwqN5mK0
Chimps kill chimps for land and females. Our closest genetic relatives except for bonobos and they kill for material wealth.
Please amend your previous posts. You were wrong.
Chimps do, and there are a few other species as well ... but they are vanishingly rare. Most species do not kill their own kind.
Moreover what chimps do ... what all animals do ... is not "greed". It is survival. There's a huge difference between doing what you have to do to feed yourself and your offspring and make sure you all survive, and one person acquiring more money than several thousand normal Joes. Sorry but there is nothing like that in the animal kingdom, anywhere. It's impossible; the laws of nature demand that an animal may only acquire that which it has personally taken action to acquire, there are no fiat games where you get to have other animals work for you because you own the forest and take a cut as the owner. In nature, you get what you earn by your own blood, sweat and tears, not an iota more.
Another poorly read individual. Worker bees live and die for a queen. Bull elk fight to the death to protect harems of 50 or more. Worker ants protect their queen with their lives and will not reproduce. Trout eat their own fry.
In fact ant and bee social structure replicate humans rather closely.
All you have done is give examples of mating instinct. How are greed and mating instinct even related?
Hive insects are nothing like human social structure at all. Human social structure is a much looser and ever-shifting hierarchy, more like wolves. The hierarchy in hive insects is biological. Worker ants don't reproduce because they can't, they don't have the equipment. That's not true of low-ranking wolves, they have all the necessary equipment, the hierarchy is based on psychology as much as anything. For this reason, the hierarchy of wolf packs changes often, with alphas being deposed fairly regularly. Ant and bee hierarchy isn't psychological at all, it is physical, what they do is governed by specialized forms. The hierarchy never changes: the queen is always the queen, until she dies, at which point the colony itself dies along with her. And actually the queen is not even a leader. She has no control of the colony. She is more like an organ with a specialized function, like a liver or gallbladder.
And none of this actually has anything to do with what I wrote. Ants live and die for a queen, but the queen doesn't kill her workers and eat them. Elk are one of the rare species alongside chimps that are notable for killing members of their own species. As far as trout, well, infanticide is a bit different (and far more widespread in the animal kingdom than adults killing each other).
Yes, it's true. For example, if a bee gets drunk too many times, the other workers tear off it's legs or worse.
I want you to go to this post. I want you to speak truth to power!. Say it once, say it twice. Say it loud. Say it proud. I'm down with the KTC. The Revolution starts here!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGaRtqrlGy8&feature=related
http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/
The Revolution starts here! No one can silence the Revolution!
In all of God's creation, only chimps. Are you a moron or an idiot?
I see monkeys groom each other. You're full of shit.
Here is another link
http://drbeetle.homestead.com/lion.html
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=male%20lions%20kill%20cubs&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDEQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D17hGhaE0YgU&ei=jZzMTq2TCeeQiAKR9aC7Cw&usg=AFQjCNElrp23hgQZ-Ktw1QvjmfNPSblZWQ
And there is a vid of lions killing cubs.
Admit it, you were wrong.
I love watching beautiful lions and I never saw them kill each other. they fight. They kill other animals for food. If you saw 1 oddball case, that makes you wrong.
Believe whatever you want.
Mr Oregon, I see where you're coming from, but is it really important where we came from? Shouldn't we be focusing on where we're going instead? Imagine a world where every child is raised to believe that greed is 100% wrong, and that your worth was determined by your workmanship like TaylaWolf said. Don't say it isn't possible. Anything is possible my friend. We came from jungles and deserts, where we butchered each other and lived under any shelter we could find. Now we have computers and cities and other wondrous modern marvels, and our ethics are constantly evolving as well. Don't shoot down an idea just because our past as a species had failed in doing so.
Again, pure naïveté about the instincts that drive humans. I think most children are raised to believe lying and stealing are wrong. Why then are there prisons? Most kidsvarevraised to believe murder is wrong. Still happens. Most people are raised to believe spousal cheating is wrong, still happens. If just training kids worked, society would have no ills. Why did Moses have to get the 10 commandments? We have known the 10 for 1000's of years and they get broken every day,even at Zuccotti Park. It's in our nature.
You obviously have no room for soul or spirit within yourself. You are trying to shove your own animal instincts down the throats of those who feel more spiritually evolved than you. It's more than obvious that you feel threatened by this because it would put an end to your dog eat do mentality.
Tell me my friend, what is it exactly that animates your pile of dirt?
But could it be possible that maybe we're going about it in the wrong way? Psychology has come a LONG way, and we're mapping out the underlying reasons for the actions of humans. I agree that simply being told that something is wrong will not help the issue. And with thousands of years of progress, people still can't see that there's way more to a criminal's mind than just "being crazy." What you're saying is that "people will ALWAYS be murderers, liars, thieves, etc. and you just gotta deal with it." I have one question for you. Why do we have to just accept it? Let's begin taking steps towards a more peaceful future. Let's put some money into research on criminal thought processes. Let's try to pinpoint the real causes for their actions, and lets put forth some REAL preventive measures. The world we live in right now simply wants to throw our crazies into a box and forget about them while we spend all our money on wars and other useless shit. I'm sorry Oregon, but if you want to see the world exactly as it is today in 1000 years, then you're hopeless. We need to move towards ethical revolution today!
Why do people cheat on their spouses? They took a solemn vow in front of their closest acquaintances and if religious, in front of God, and yet they broke it. they had the best of intentions but their human nature allowed them to break the most solemn heartfelt of vows. Why?
Because our society has somehow convinced everyone that too much love is a bad thing. It's natural to want to have sex. Who does it hurt? Nobody. Yet you've had it beaten into your head since birth that you're supposed to get upset if your girlfriend sleeps around. Monogamy goes against instinct. Sure, we need population control, but that can be achieved through proper education and now even through simple surgery for those who don't want children. Don't argue with me on that specific topic because I am dead-set in my beliefs that our civilization has been brainwashed to shun and condemn that which gives us some of the greatest pleasure in life. I've successfully freed my mind from the petty childish emotion "jealousy" and let me tell you, it's truly liberating to know that me and my future wife will one day share our love with other like minded people and live our short lives to the fullest.
Also, don't bring "God" into this. Another tool of the elite to control you. Just look at the crusades. Think things have changed at all? They haven't.
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Modern machinery was supposed to make life easier but we're slaves to 30-year mortgages for cheap sheet-rock & 2x4s. With abundance, barter, hoarding and money is unnecessary. I once figured out that 45% of American workers work at unnecessary jobs pushing papers (bankers, accountants, cashiers, junk food, etc. I made a video about it two days ago: http://youtu.be/J5n2GwzDadk?t=14m52s
I agree. Finance and tax related work is a total waste. It is absolutely unproductive and unnecessary. The system has created these overpaid non-productive clerks, and now they are the Masters.
Do you mind explaining?
People work to produce food, clothes, houses, roads, bridges. What are these Finance and Tax clerks producing??
A service. A service that keeps the world moving. Are you KIDDING me? You can't be serious. You're not serious.
They happen to be the brilliant students, and the brains of the society. But they have been lured by the glitter of money. If they worked as engineers, doctors, scientist, teachers...... the society would have been different.
The fucking brains that busted the entire banking system. USA United States of Assholes
Alright dude. When you can figure out how a single engineering firm, doctor's practice, research lab or school can operate without an accountant - let me know. Until then, think before you post.
If the system is improved, there will be no need for an accountant. These parasites have created a COMPLICATED system to make themselves all-important. They are brilliant people. Had they worked for the betterment of the society.......
You're blaming an italian monk from the 15th century for this? Really? You don't think accounting evolved out of necessity? You say "if the system was improved" - please, demonstrate how it could be improved. You will be a billionaire and you could start a million charities.
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I agree. They happen to be the brilliant students, and the brains of the society. But they have been lured by the glitter of money. Had they worked as engineers, doctors, scientist, teachers...... the society would have been different.
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I guess some get and some don't ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
This is a great, enlightened movie, a must watch. First time I saw a systemic approach to solving our problems.
People need to read Maslow,,, when all have what they need, productivity is natural, though not necessarily what we think of because it doesn't necessarily mean "making goods"which is a narrow modern view of what it is to be productive... but work is self-fulfillment. If money were gone and all were fed, people would still work.
IronPimp the Sirian gives a great presentation incorporating Maslow's theory of self realization, as the electromagnetic field shows signs of unzipping around him, here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWX3xNklTxs
Thanks, I saved it to watch later, especially after your intriguing preview and then the even more wonderful first minute :)
Glad you liked it, IronPimp's videos are unlisted while the 3rd dimensional physical reality administrator of his account is overseas, but here are some more for your enjoyment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYwdq7R9jIM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVKfEVWWvZ4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8a65b4lX64 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWX3xNklTxs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUslUm_HieI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp2NYBZSuO8
I've been turning down job offers left and right out here. Once I get a whiff at how they really operate their business, I want no part of those shenanigans.
I work for myself for the same reasons.... I'll work for non-profits, to profit communities. but I will never again lend or sell my labor to the profit of individuals. Personal choices are part of revolution too.
"Be the change" -Gandhi PandaMe73: I so completely agree. I've been a model 'top employee' for one too many large, privately owned companies in the past whose ownership 3 times in my work history literally ran the businesses into the ground because they refused to LISTEN to the constructive reason of employees. At others which were publicly held the work experience was simply one of devaluation for my standard 110% effort and I could never have a sense of loyalty for situations that mirror the insipid life of Dilbert the Cubicleized Cartoon character.
Thank You eversomuch!
I build those things that keep planes from colliding... we all decided to quit and eat bannanas on the beach .. someday you will be right hopefully soon
Sure "they" have new ideas for creating new jobs. The new job impetus is the service sector, oh wait "they" outsourced al, this jobs.
Yes I agree with this as well.
No one has to waste their time doing a 'joe job' like flipping burgers just to make ends meet. Buckminster Fuller suggested a 'Guaranteed Minimum income' in the 1960s that would replace the need for welfare, disability, social security, as well as working to make ends meet.
His idea was that every U.S. citizen gets paid a salary that matches or exceeds the poverty level. They have enough to buy groceries, pay bills, pay rent, buy clothes, and so forth. Enough to fulfill everyone's needs. If they want more than that, they can choose to work, and the money they make is for spending.
Actually we're in a food crisis. Admittedly this is partly because of bad land use (fertile soil being used for suburban lawns, but also things like growing cotton for export instead of food and so on) but even so, there is a finite limit to how much arable land is available and we're starting to bump up against it.
Not every country has an overall surplus. The US doesn't, it has a massive trade deficit. Every country has something to export, but that doesn't mean it doesn't import more than it exports.
As far as jobs. Yes, we need them, that is the whole problem. Unless you bring in slavery, some people will need to work and they will not willingly support everyone else - you will have to enslave them to get them to do that. The idea that jobs are obsolete is an illusion caused by our fake economies here in the developed world, where we produce nothing, taking it all from poor countries to feed our black hole of an economy. In Mexico or Thailand or Peru, nobody thinks jobs are obsolete - they are doing all the work to support us and the magical game we call an economy.
What we really need to do, and what will eventually come because there is no choice, is to get back to work and start producing our own goods again, and to produce goods that last instead of everything being disposable after a few years. This will be labour intensive, and there are going to be many more jobs in repair and maintenance to keep these long-lasting goods going as long as possible. Simply put resource scarcity will impose this on us, within the next century at the latest.
Thank all of you guys for protesting for the rights of all Americans some of us are people who can not be there becuase of our jobs or other issues. You guys are fighting for our pensions and the pensions of the police who are pepper spraying you. I hope these police realize the error in their judgment. Any way check out this movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eRooYZJL-E
I want you to go to this post. I want you to speak truth to power!. Say it once, say it twice. Say it loud. Say it proud. I'm down with the KTC. The Revolution starts here!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGaRtqrlGy8&feature=related
http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/
The Revolution starts here! No one can silence the Revolution!
We have the capability to create supercomputers the size of laptops but this poses a security threat to monetary interests. We have technologies that can completely replace oil, coal, and other fossil fuels for energy.
The limitation today is money. The price and profit mechanisms are completely detached from what we are capable of producing today.
Quite literally factories can produce more than we consume otherwise they'd be running all day. But if they produce abundance the price of their product drops. And if manufacturers make high quality products that last extremely long periods their customers will not return as frequently, hence lower profits.
So the issue is allowing money itself to become obsolete without restricting access to these goods that can now be produced in abundance.
this is a powerful song to the president..and to all people
http://macke.bandcamp.com/track/mr-president-prod-by-g-i-f-t
There's only way to make money worthless
It is immoral, risky and fun...
Massive counterfeiting.
Massive counterfeit of money to be more precise.
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Entrepreneurism is always key to serving under-served markets... In other words, if there is a need, fill it.
The goal of all business is always the same. Make profits at the expense of others. But when someone else starts making profit at their expense then they complain and want to return things to they way they were before. AKA: The Machine Breakers
We live in a system of exchange. You make or have something I want, so we negotiate or trade for it. This is a very simple axiom that applies to every human pursuit.
But there is surplus of everything... EVERYTHING!!! The market is saturated. The PC was the last thing everybody needed and reached saturation years ago. Except for just minor everyday crap what is there to keep worldwide economies loaded with surplus going? Emerging markets? Where are they? The world is a finite place.
Yet people are still going without....
You as a person hold unique skills, knowledge, creativity and preferences which make you valuable. No matter who you are, there is a way for you to take advantage of what you have to offer. It may not be easy, but it is always possible.
But you see I don't want to. I already have a good job. But my point is that why if many jobs have been eliminated by automation then why is there a need to create some new kind of job? It seems that that is our current problem. After we switched to service sector employment under Clinton we pretty much hit the end.
If everyone were to contribute their unique talent to the well being of the whole then NO ONE would want anything. Ants and bees have been doing it for quite a long time... We already have a surplus of goods. Wage slavery only serves one purpose... subservience.
Why is the garbage collector less important than the banker?
Hopefully their wages are determined by market forces, not politics. If so, their compensation reflects their value to consumers or the companies they work for.
They make profits by offering something of value in return, either goods or services. You make it sound like a one-sided game.
It is. Again, if there is more than enough for everyone then please explain why anything needs to have a value placed upon it. In the end "Who Benefits"? Not me... You?
I mean there is enough oil today for everyone who needs it. But it needs to be extracted from the ground, shipped to a refinery, refined, and then shipped to a gas station. That is a lot of work just to have something, even if it is something that there is more than enough of. Doesn't that create a value? I mean if gas had no value, why on earth would all those people do their job every step of the way?
These are just Business 101 theories. And they are just that Theories...
Look at it from another POV if you will. Instead of ever increasing profits which drive the entire machine .... Take out the greed factor.
Everyone contributing to the well being of everyone else without a profit motive. It has been proven that one cannot be altruistic and greedy at the same time.
You can't change human nature. We would never have the things we have today if it was not for greed. Altruism only gets you so far. I would take greed any day.
I love that story...
What do you think drives people to invent new things and make new discoveries? The vast majority of the time, the goal is to make a fortune, not help humanity.
Again... I love that story.
If that is the best you have, I would suggest you educate yourself.
Really? Tell that to Jonas Salk who refused to patent his Polio vaccine.
So you think more people create for altruism than greed? Really? Jonas Salk is the exception, not the rule. And it never will be the rule because greed is just human nature. Greed is a survival instinct, for humans and other animals, that has evolved over millions of years. It doesn't just go away.
The love of money is the root of all evil my friend. A spiritual circumcision of the heart is required to rise above our animal nature. THEN it does just go away.
Okay. So you have one guy. How about Thomas Edison. Holds over 1,000 patents. He was also one of the greatest businessmen ever. He didn't do what he did strictly for altruism. Yes, he wanted to make life better for us all, but he also wasn't just going to give it away for free either.
You are talking a pipe dream, and I think there's a hallucinogen in your pipe. There will always be a lazy slob who does not want to work, and who would still want the fruits of the work of others. The others, meanwhile, will not allow their work to be effectively stolen by a lazy slob. Thus your idea is made impossible by something known to many as "reality."
You need to research the native societies of those who were here before. Shunning has great power...
BTW, the lazy slobs are generally the ones who want cooperation without a profit motive for the work. This is because without others working on behalf of everybody, which includes them, they would be reduced to nothing because of their unwillingness to work for anybody, which includes themselves.
this explains your point to a tee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A
It's posts like this that turn people off of OWS.
New jobs ? The Keystone pipline would have provided thousands of hem , but 0bama said NO to it.
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You don't understand anything about economics. Jobs are necessary. If you think not, you can crawl into a hole and go to sleep, until you wake up in the morning to try to kill a gazelle with your teeth and eat it.
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"...we are supposed to invent new jobs"
Well welcome to the party. Are you FUCKING ME? This idea is like 200 years old and you're JUST catching on?
The automation is because of technological development. Are you suggesting that we halt technological development to save jobs that are redundant or irrelevant?
People moved to cities because they could make more money than they did in bumbfuck nowhere. Farm technology came after that to increase production. Innovation is always needed.
Should we go back to farming with our barehands so that we can have more jobs? More people would starve.
Did I not mention The Machine Breakers? I think I did...
Innovation should be used for the betterment of mankind not for the profit of a few. I have no illusions or delusions I might someday be like THEM.
Profit just means everybody in a firm got paid. A large corporation making a profit means people got paid.
Are tech innovations bad then? Should we not move forward by not eliminating redundancies?
This is a false statement. Everyone in a firm can get paid and the firm operated with a loss. Same with a large corporation - they can make no profit and everyone still gets paid.
Two types of profit.
Normal Profit - Breaking even with Total Costs
Economic Profit - Anything above Normal Profit
You can pay your employees and operate at a loss but if you operate at a loss, either you're in debt or you're digging into your savings.
So...I was right.
No, you weren't right. You are wrong. You literally typed it out yourself. You can pay your employees and operate at a loss. Businesses do it every single day.
Again, you are wrong.
But you eventually go out of business. I don't see what you're point is. You can't do it in the long run but in the short run you can.
So...what?
So is the intention of the business simply to make money or to create a higher quality of life for everyone?
A money centered business can not be an ethical business if they deliberately lower/suppress the quality of life of their employees and customers for profits.
In a more competitive market, you simply can't try to suppress your workers because they'll leave.
The goal of a business is to make money. But making money is what increases the standard of living.
Unbridled competition is part of the problem.
We already live in an extremely competitive market. Unfortunately for us the distribution of power has accumulated in the hands of the few. But that's the logical conclusion of competition. One group wins to the detriment of another or multiple groups.
If the goal of business is to accumulate money at all costs including ecological destruction, technological suppression, planned obsolescence, and health deterioration of employers then exactly how much does it truly benefit the public?
The GDP is a false indicator of economic growth because it doesn't subtract. It doesn't subtract all the things that lower a societies quality of life. The same can be said of blindly accumulating money and assets.
Affluenza: a painful, contagious, socially transmitted condition of overload, debt, anxiety and waste resulting from the dogged pursuit of more.
A truly ethical business is one that allows itself to lose money once productivity exceeds demand. And this is without artificially limiting their production capabilities, their technological capabilities, their employees wages, nor spiking their prices.
An ethical business exists to meet a need, not to perpetuate problems/demands.
You're thinking about competition wrong. The people that are supposed to win from it are the consumers. There seems to be some confusion that competition evil and it results in monopolies; it does the exact opposite.
Your definition of a truly ethical business makes little sense economically. Businesses should only produce until marginal cost equates to marginal benefit. Anything else makes them lose money.
"The people that are supposed to win from it are the consumers."
To accomplish that a tradeoff is made. That tradeoff is a businesses profit margins. If the business exists solely to meet a need for the people and not to accumulate wealth then it will naturally become less profitable and eventually unprofitable as it is no longer needed.
So as you said, things are kept marginal purposely to keep the business alive. (The corporations are people idea..) This intentional suppression of production capacities (and technologies for tech-industries) is done to the detriment of the consumers (the people).
Within the company itself, employees are laid off to maintain profits. Products are intentionally designed with cheaper quality materials, and designs. The safety standards and quality of the goods may drop. Jobs may be outsourced. etc.
As for monopolies. 'Human nature' as it's misinterpreted can be just as collaborative as many believe it is competitive. That's why we have corporations in government with the support of banks. Companies will collaborate to increase their profits as seen by lobby groups. So unintended collaboration within a competitive environment (monetary system) lead to monopolies where business shareholders win to the detriment of the consumers/public.
Finally ethical business and economics.
'Traditional Economists': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi7lz4dHlIM
We live in an anti-economy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w_uM8TfOwE&feature=related
In a theoretically perfectly competitive market, nobody can profit economically in the long run.
True, it also leads to outsourcing in order to keep costs of production low. But new industries and bubbles create jobs, better ones that pay higher.
Wouldn't it be great if production was largely machine based? Computers making computers, cars and toys while people are the ones that create and design those machines?
That's where we're headed. Its more efficient and potentially greener.
[No reply option on your post below]
"Competitive markets have nothing to do with playing fair. It means that companies keep each other honest price-wise.
Scarcity isn't artificial, it's real and tangible, and it's the reason that there will always be competition, no matter the economic system."
The pricing system will never be kept honest without enforced regulation. That's the point of 'fairness'. Companies form cartels to maximize profits or governments impose regulations on companies to make the product/service affordable to consumers. And even if the latter occurs successfully, the employees are the first to feel the impact as wages are lowered or jobs are laidoff.
artificial scarcity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ECIN0Niw88&feature=related
abundance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnRyVK7HqJE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPvgkZhrWUA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aghzpO_UZE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpv6aGTcCl8
http://www.youtube.com/user/khanacademy?blend=1&ob=4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIsHKrP-66s
Artificial scarcity is only really used for things that have extremely high prices like when the newest IPhone comes out.
"Fairness" is completely ill-defined and no one will agree on it unless you talk about the intersection of supply and demand. That is the "fair" price is, in economic terms, because it's where consumer and provider meet on a price.
The regulation needed is anti-monopoly or anti-trust laws that encourage competitive markets.
In a perfectly competitive market everyone plays fairly.
But when people's lives and families are at stake all bets are off. So everyone has to be able to keep up with the game (make a suitable wage/salary) or find another way to meet their needs. When too many are unable to keep up with the game (unemployed/underemployed/under paid) unrest develops. Of course, there are also those that don't care for fair play altogether, they just want to win the game. (accumulate all the wealth)
The newly created job sectors are moving further and further away from actual needs. Many occupations exist simply to circulate money around the system. Many other jobs are kept alive when they can easily be automated/mechanized.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQDArhWznjU
Unfortunately the technological unemployment resulting from automation also forces more people to concentrate on jobs which require specialized training. This becomes a problem especially as more people compete for fewer highly specialized jobs.
So yes, technology will continue shaping the world.
But people must have access to that abundance created otherwise more unrest will develop. Not just in our country, but throughout the world.
First thing's first. Remove all the artificial scarcity imposed by eliminating corrupt practices.
Competitive markets have nothing to do with playing fair. It means that companies keep each other honest price-wise.
Scarcity isn't artificial, it's real and tangible, and it's the reason that there will always be competition, no matter the economic system.