Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: Lets develop a Perfect World.

Posted 2 years ago on Jan. 5, 2012, 6:54 a.m. EST by FriendlyObserverA (610)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

okay everyone lets all stop squabbling with one another ..for a moment.

With the freedoms we have of speech and the press , and with democracy , the sky is truly the limit.

Let's look to the future .. far far into the future , all the way to a time when mankind finally develops the " perfect civilization."

Can anyone see that far ?

What will it be like .. ? How will we govern ourselves .. our monetary system , what will it look like ?

Using everything we know now , through trials and experience how will we develop into that perfect world ?

Here is a chance to brainstorm .

I have suggested an " hour-coin " system . Which will remove the tax collecting system and provide an unlimited budget for anyone wanting to work. This will create a contentful feeling where we will no longer worry about tomorrows income. And with unlimited use of our labor source we can truly achieve the greatest dream imaginable.

All eductaion will be paid equally as will labor. there will never be inequality . fairness will be our guiding principle.

Would anyone like to share a thought?

I am sure this question will seperate the pessimists from the optimists.

214 Comments

214 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21588) 2 years ago

How about a world with no jerks in it? That, on its own, would solve a lot of problems.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

That indeed would be a beautiful world.

[-] 0 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 2 years ago

YES!!!!!!!!!

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

perhaps perfect is to strong of a word ? lol

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

brainstorming - goals - thoughts - visions - statements - b.......t
HOW LONG WILL OWS BE MIRED IN THIS SWAMP ?
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try.

When and how will OWS shift from "try" & intellectual masturbation
TO... DO?

[-] 2 points by dreamingforward (394) from Tacoma, WA 2 years ago

There can't be perfection without justice. So how about using the sacred land of the Native America's in the way they intended, or at least respecting the ways they wish.

Leave the great civilizations to Europe where it's more apropos and make the land of the Americas a Great Continental Park..

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

Okay, but explain how we do this?

[-] 2 points by Listof40 (233) 2 years ago

I like the idea of brainstorming, and maybe the idea of a hour-coin system is a little simplistic... but so what.... asking questions is ok, offering ideas with concern to discuss and be open-minded is a virtue... Period.

It can be easy to be cynical, but there can be way too much assumption in our hostilities to many of each other's ideas that can end up being somewhat unhealthy, and not in the spirit of discussion...

Not sure if the idea of perfection is really as relevant to this discussion as has been described, it could be seen in some ways as a rhetorical setup even...

The idea that we or society has to be dsyfunctional and unhealthy or 'we will be bored', is equivalent to saying we have to have cancer in order to enjoy our life... being physically healthy would be too 'boring'... like it would take the fun out of life to have healthy interaction and real concern for each other... this kind of characterization is fairly weak and actually itself is questionably simplistic...

We can not actually legitimately claim we are defending the free flow of ideas, when with the other hand we are hostile when people are honestly trying to come up with new ways of looking at things when it is good natured and has good intentions (naive or not is really irrelevant to this)...

There is an issue in society where we may often think it is somehow automatically reasonable to 'naysay' others or 'positive thinking' with recycled cynical assumptions.

Sometimes it is important when we can step back and say, what are we doing to the discussion and each other when we are hostile to people when they make attempts to look at new ideas and things in new ways... even if we don't agree with them, we should not discourage people when they are honestly trying...

I definitely do not want to discourage light banter or having a fun discussion, but it is also important that we see when may be harrassing people for just putting ideas out there in an innocent manner, asking us for ideas to brainstorm or just for discussion...

Dave

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

thank you for your comment.

[-] 1 points by Listof40 (233) 2 years ago

Not meaning to be too serious myself about this, we should be as light-hearted as we want, people should have a good time...

Just meant should also stand up for each other, because we have probably all been in situations where we maybe we may not have stuck up for others when we thought they meant well, which may be not so good a feeling either...

Maybe the hour-coin system could work too, there are of course a lot of other factors that could influence this, it is probably alot about how we choose to be open to ideas and approaches, and improving them as they are implemented, so there could be a lot of ways that could all help economically...

Dave

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

yes you're right. but reality is not always what we want it to be .

thanks for the kind thought

[-] 1 points by IslandActivist (191) from Keaau, HI 2 years ago

The Venus Project. Done.

[-] 1 points by jomojo (562) 2 years ago

Share a thought....with me, myself, and I. Dogs don't eat dogs there.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 2 years ago

LOL ! We're going to need perfect people first, and we're along way from having perfected the breed. I'm an optimist by the way because I believe we will do better. The pessimists have zero faith in people over any time span.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

To take a serious stab at creating a more 'perfect' civilization, we would have to start first by removing the utopian elements.

Brainstorming.....my perfect world....

We would use perfect in this sense; perfect, adj., highly suitable for someone or something; exactly right

How will we govern ourselves? Democracy through representation. With very strict guidelines and penalties against power concentration.

What will our monetary system look like? scaled equality pay by industry w/bonus systems for performance & specialization, also an overall meritocracy bonus system to draw people to necessary jobs - health care givers, emergency workers, teachers, etc.

A heavy investment in early career choice development and aptitudes. Quicker entry into industry schools for specialized learning taught alongside general education. Teachers would be highly essential & prized in this system and should attract best people. Should be an oath taken, akin to a doctor's oath.

and ....that's all I got....for now.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

It's no easy task to create a new system.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

It's no easy task living in a 'broken' system either. Lol.

[-] 1 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 2 years ago

Awesome comment jaded. Wish I penned it.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

it's not really broken .. it just had its day in the sun

[-] 1 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 2 years ago

It is absolutely broken down and rusting out in the back yard of a single-wide trailer with grass and weeds growing up through it. It can't get much more broken without completely collapsing.

[-] 1 points by Rouf (4) 2 years ago

I have developed a better system which most of you do not know about .But the government of USA knows as to how well would that work it is for that reason the government cracks down upon OWS fearing that if the masses came to know about that system then they shall overthrow the government any movement.However,some workers unions and a few universities know about that system.Further,USA encourages the rumor of conspiracy.Moreover,even my email account does not work as well.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

What is your system called, and where can I find your scholarly papers on it? What peer-reviewed journals have you published in? Or perhaps you have a book published by a reputable editor like all other economists who created revolutionary systems? What is the ISPN number of this book?

If your email no longer works, just create another one. Gmail and Hotmail are free.

[-] 1 points by Rouf (4) 2 years ago

Thanks,I am not allowed to create another email address,there is a lot of spying done by India and USA on me.However,my system is called humanistic system,where i have redefined the work and attempted to make a system which rewards every good deed of a person.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

where i have redefined the work and attempted to make a system which rewards every good deed of a person.

That idea stems from behaviorism and is a failed concept. It's only useful when training dogs. You give them a biscuit if they sit down.

It seems to me you are a mentally ill conspiracy theorist. You should seek the help of a doctor. You're most likely suffering from paranoid delusions often associated with schizophrenia.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Sure. As long as you scoop my poop.

[-] 1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 2 years ago

I think we'll be able to do this right after the next World War....I'm being the optimist, I hope you realize that?

[-] 2 points by nickhowdy (1104) 2 years ago

Through my crystal ball I see that after the war there would be no need for money...Because most of us will be dead or in a daze, stumbling about, glowing with a sort of green aura.

After the war there will be no need for labor or work..You'll just need to do what you will for basic survival...Yes there will be some raping and pillaging as may be required..and raping too.

There will be no need for food because you'll be able to live off the 6.X billion human carcases laying about (tastes just like chicken they say).

There will be no need for electricity or indoor plumbing because there won't be an indoors.

See if we kill off enough people everything will go back to normal and all will be right with the world..

I got this all from a pamphlet I found at the Bohemian Grove..

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 2 years ago

You need to read my next post! I poke fun at apocalypse using sexual references.

[-] 1 points by ediblescape (235) 2 years ago

Chinese did this in 60s and 70s without luck because they have a central power system. The system was easy to be corrupt.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by burningman2012 (187) 2 years ago

sounds like objectivist libertarian bullshit to me.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by NightShade (163) 2 years ago

When will people get it through their thick skull, democracy is not freedom but a political system design for a class society.

Democracy is garbage and only works to 3rd rate countries who have factions within their borders, The United States is not a democratic country.

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

You are correct. The United States is a Representative Republic based on democratic principles.

We would not want to be a democracy.

“Democracy destroys itself because it abuses its right to freedom and equality. Because it teaches its citizens to consider audacity as a right, lawlessness as a freedom, abrasive speech as equality, and anarchy as progress.”― Isocrates

I think FriendlyObserver was referring to our democratic principles as opposed to our political system.

[-] 0 points by NightShade (163) 2 years ago

Thank you for agreeing with me, I understand where the poster is coming from but I just wish to point that out for the observer who may be confused.

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I agree, which is why I wanted to add to your comment. I've talked to many people in the movement who want to end our Representative Republic to replace it with direct democracy. It always makes me a little nervous when someone uses the word democracy now. Even if it is meant in the general sense of the principles. At least I don't think Friendly Observer wants to end our form of government and replace it. I'll check.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

YEAH!

Real Americans don't need no stinkin' democracy.

We should more like China. Let the fearless leaders pick a leader.

You're a flake.

Were a democratic republic.

You've just been taught to hate the word democratic.

Too much FLAKESnews, perhaps?

Loony for Limbaugh?

[-] -1 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

your message is incoherent. but yes democracy is one person one vote , the best idea on the planet..

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

You mean "democratic" in the sense of underlying principles, and one person one vote - for our elected officials, right? Not in the sense of replacing our form of government with direct democracy. Just checkin'.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

I believe with freedom to express a new idea combined with democratic principles gives us our greatest ability to achieve success.

[-] 0 points by JohnMarsden (47) 2 years ago

Nobody works and everyone is a millionaire and all Republicans are jailed.

[-] 0 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

I like your post and will add my thoughts soon. But since everyone is on the topic of perfection, a friend of mine always says: Hopeless is the state where there is no possibility for improvement. Perfection also is the state where there is no possibility for improvement. Therefore, perfection = hopelessness. If we give up our hope for perfection, and therefore become hopeless, that would be the ultimate state of perfection.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

unless perfection includes possibility for improvement, which it does.. with unlimited budget the workforce is only limited to their imagination.. there is no limit to imagination.

thanks looking forward to hearing your thoughts

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

ah! agree, perfection must include that possibility - or it is not a perfect state..

I don't know all of the details behind hour coins. But I would be interested in hearing more.

The way I see it, right now our entire way of life seems to be entangled so deeply with money. A commonly held belief is that money is the motivating force behind labor. If there was no motivation to make money, the workforce would not produce, the country would be broke and could not afford a military complex, some dictator would be able to take over and freedom would perish.

So, how to dismantle this belief? I will have to think on it.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

The hour coin is also money .. performs the same function as the dollar bill .. I go to work to earn dollar bills , or I go to work to earn hour coins .. the motive is the same.

the basic advantage of an hour-coin, is it provides universal intrinsic value, it works together with the economy to remove the tax collecting system [which is a huge hinderence on the evolution of mankind] and it is designed to have an unlimited supply. As many hour coins as necessary will be created for as much as the labor force wants to work .. how do we prevent flooding the economy with hour -coins and causing inflation ? I can give you thew short answer, the coins will expire when spent. really could be called an hour-credit and it will simply be removed from your account. these are details .. but the main improvement of this , is how we now have an unlimited budget of hour-coins. .. never again will there be unemployment .

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Money only represents resources like food. If there was no money, the driving force of labor would be to harness resources so that we could survive. It's very much the same thing. Money is not a problem, it's a wonderful invention.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

In our culture, money also represents status, political power, happiness, and well being. The common belief is, money equals freedom. Do you believe this to be true?

[-] 1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Money only represents resources. It is used for convenience. If there was no money, resources would represent status, political power, happiness, and well being.

Money does bring about certain freedoms. That's obvious.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

The cultural "wisdom" that we inherit is likely along these lines: If you were rich you would not have to work. You would be free to do anything you wanted.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

It's not a cultural wisdom, it's a plain fact. If you already have all you need to survive, you can spend time doing activities that aren't crucial to your existence. This will always be true as long as we need external resources like food to remain alive.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

This is not a fact. It is a subjective belief. Here is a fact. We are always doing what we want. Otherwise, we wouldn't be doing it.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

It is a fact. You need external resources like food and water to survive. If you don't need to work to obtain these because you already have them or because you have the money to pay for them, it means more time for other activities.

Here is a fact. We are always doing what we want. Otherwise, we wouldn't be doing it.

I would enjoy seeing you debate this "fact" with a battered woman or a POW being tortured for information. Or with a poor child in Lombok who needs to work in the rice fields because his family can't afford to pay for him to go to school.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

It is an impossible situation. Our cultural mindset has put us all in a impossible situation.

These are easy:

If you were a woman being battered, you would likely WANT to get yourself out of harms way. You would likely be doing everything possible to get away from your oppressor.

If you were a poor child working the rice field, you might rather be doing something else, but would likely WANT to make sure you had something to eat.

Try this one.. I have a roof over my head, I have enough to eat, I have a loving family, but I want to be on a yacht in the south pacific sipping cocktails with my pretty girlfriend.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

OK. You're just playing around with definitions. This type of talk leads nowhere. You're relativizing and using a reductionist view point. You're just confusing the discussion. It's not productive.

There is a difference between wanting something to eat because you barely have enough food to survive, and wanting to go on a yacht cruise because you are bored. The child who "wants" to work in the rice fields because he doesn't have a choice wishes he wouldn't have to while the person who wants to go on a yacht cruise is perfectly content with his life situation. There is an important difference between necessities and luxuries. The definition of a luxury is something you don't really need.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

Ok, maybe I am just playing around with ideas here, but I am getting at something. Our cultural tendency to use money as a representation of happiness and freedom - puts us all in an impossible situation. An impossible situation is one that does not exist. If we are going to give our children any hope for the future, we need to take an extremely honest look at the beliefs we inherit due to social conditioning.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Iv'e run out of replies, so I'll respond to your post below up here.

I guess what's new for me is the idea that while it is easy to "step outside" the cultural norm - which I have always done when I did not agree.. and live our lives as we wish. It may not be the most responsible action.

Stepping outside the system is a bandaid type solution that only helps the individual stepping out. It doesn't cure the root cause of the problems, and is not permanent. We definitely need to look for permanent solutions that attack the very foundation of our societies and their problems.

We need to figure out how to make sure everyone has their needs met. We also need to work on waste and resource management. It has always bothered me that I can't use a car because I don't own one even though there are always hundreds of unused cars parked just outside my house. This makes absolutely no sense.

We will know we have reached a better society when everyone can eat enough food to be healthy, when everyone can have access to a doctor when they are sick, when everyone can live a decent life with a normal set of working hours, and when everyone will be able to access resources that are not being used and are on standby.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

I guess you are talking about materialism and consumerism. I'm not sure why you didn't say so from the start. Iv'e personally never been bothered by it. Iv'e always chosen time over money. Iv'e never worked a full time job in my life. But, it's true, many people fall in that trap and social conditioning plays a big part in this. Our whole economy runs by us buying useless gadgets and other useless stuff. We produce all kinds of luxuries, yet many people don't even have their basic needs met. It's quite sad.

That being said, this problem has nothing to do with wealth inequality. It has to do with what type of wealth our societies decide to produce and how we distribute the wealth we do produce. In a better society, we wouldn't have people wasting time making plastic toys and luxurious rims for car wheels when some people don't even have enough to eat. In a better society, stores wouldn't throw away tomatoes at the end of the day because nobody bought them and they don't look perfectly red anymore. They would give them to poor people who have barely anything to eat.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

I am just working through this as we are discussing this and I want to thank you for helping me dig further on it.

I wonder if in a better society, if people were not put in impossible situations, they would be able to deal more effectively with the situations that do exist.

I guess what's new for me is the idea that while it is easy to "step outside" the cultural norm - which I have always done when I did not agree.. and live our lives as we wish. It may not be the most responsible action. That somehow, and I do not know how, we have to get at the roots and pull out the weeds we do not want growing.

[-] -1 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

Yes I agree , money is a very useful .. to try to do away with money .. I have no desire to consider the possibility.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

Would you be willing to consider the possibility of re-constructing our beliefs about money?

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

money is a representation of our efforts [ except for the Back-Riders ] and this representation is a means of trading our efforts. I think there is great civilized need to maintain a monetary system.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

Do you feel that in our culture, having more money means having more freedom?

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

more than who?

I advocate equal pay.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

I will reword this. In general, do you think the predominately held belief in our culture is that if people had more money than they do currently, they would have more freedom? Do people in our country generally equate money with freedom?

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

somehow I don't think of money as freedom in its true sense. Freedom is about human rights .. free speech press , ability to make ones own decisions .. freedom with out an oppressor .. such as many other nations where freedom is absent .. We have freedom whether we are broke or rich ..

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

I agree and if most people stopped to think about they would likely as well. But, culturally speaking, our society does not reflect or nurture this idea. That we have freedom whether we are broke or rich. What about happiness? Culturally speaking, can broke people be happy?

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

honestly .. happiness comes from somewhere else.. true happiness .. the kind that makes your heart smile .. I believe happiness comes from our actions .. or as a result of our actions .. being kind will lead to happiness .. being mean .. how could that lead to happiness.. money is an object nothing more.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

Yes. Most people, if they thought about it, would know this to be true. But again, our cultural consciousness does not nurture or reflect this idea. What about intelligence? Culturally speaking, when you think of a poor person in America, do you imagine someone highly intelligent?

My point is, our culture, when it comes to money, does not reflect what we know to be true. It does not reflect who we really are.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

very right, happiness does take " nurturing.

does the amount of money reflect who we are? the culture certainly likes to think so .. especially the wealthy..

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21588) 2 years ago

Nice post.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

By definition, something that is perfect cannot be improved upon. Buy a dictionary.

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 2 years ago

Thus, it does not change, since change is what marks time, perfection is timeless.

Imperfection is inherent to the universe; particles and anti-particles, positive and negative charges, emission and absorption of photons, it's all imbalance seeking balance. It's the change from which time emerges as all these unbalanced forces seek balance, return to perfection, the null state.

Life itself is the gift of imperfection. It depends on the imbalance of forces and passage of time derived from change, and without sorrow there can be no joy, without pain no pleasure, without failure no success, without hate no love.

Perfection is antithetical to life.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

as in a perfect society you said yourself without the ability to develop it would die.. therefore through deduction perfection is the ability to develop.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

From Oxyford


perfection
noun
the condition, state, or quality of being free or as free as possible from all flaws or defects


[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Playing devil's advocate, the original sense of the word perfect was used as an adjective and not a noun - from Oxford

perfect, adj., highly suitable for someone or something; exactly right

The perfect conditions for civilization to develop?

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

yes , and so a perfect world free from flaw and defect has the ability to grow and develop without restraint.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

By definition, if there are no defects, there is nothing to improve. If you reach a perfect state, you would not want it to grow because with growing comes change. You would want it to remain as is. It's already perfect.

You don't understand basic definitions and that's why your comments on this forum make no sense. Graduate high school, then study for a few years, then come back and discuss politics. In the meantime, you should stick to observing.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

the definition says free from flaws or defects , it doesn't say anything about not having the ability to grow.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Playing devil's advocate, the original sense of the word perfect was used as an adjective and not a noun - from Oxford

perfect, adj., highly suitable for someone or something; exactly right

The perfect conditions for civilization to develop?

[-] -1 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

oh its and endless almost pointless debate I am having with Thrasymaque. she will just simply not allow a bit of truth in her life.. lol

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

You must be sexually deprived. You posted pornography here. You also told me I should get down on my knees and perform a sex act on you. Yes, I saw that before you deleted it. You are sexually deprived. Who does that?? What is wrong with you??

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

April , your taking that out of context. you were jerking me around ..so I made the statment of getting on your knees and teasing me with your mouth .. so I made a statement which I retracted.. I wasn't comfortable with.

As for Thrasy's accusations they are completely false. But how can I prove that ? All I can say this is my only username . I had previously started with FriendlyObserver without the A , but I made a post back than regarding something about feeling sorry for new york .. they had to go through 9/11 and now this ows protest .. and afterwards I could no longer log on using that name..

I am not sure about Thrasymaque , but I never accused her of posting those photos like others have .. I seen that the name was slightly different .. maky or mky ..

I don't know what exactly touched off this new round of accusations of hers .. she is always accusing me ..of something .. being in highschool or what ever ..

I merely suggested she use her little bot .. on another thread she said she was building one .. she got all excited and it nearly brought her to tears .. I almost apologized to her..

Thrasymaque just wrote this: There are serious discussions even though you try to avoid them.

and she has always been posting stuff like this : In the meantime, you should stick to observing.

so what is it maque , do you want to observe or join the discussion?

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I understand perfectly. Don't ever talk to me again.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

[-]April (1717) 1 points 1 day ago

lol. Oh come on, it was kinda funny. He's going to do what he does with or without encouragement. I actually think its good that he was being so humorous today. It's healthy. We can't all be so serious all the time. And he's usually always serious. I think it's good when we can make eachother laugh around here and laugh at our selves too. Its a good reminder that we're all human beings with feelings. Not just organized alphabets on a cold computer screen.

Your post below made me laugh also - " the dark side". He is a little dark sometimes. lol.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Yes, I am often dark. That's true.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

As for Thrasy's accusations they are completely false. But how can I prove that ?

You can easily prove this by asking the moderators to cross check your IP with other users on the forum. I already did.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

you are a moderator ..

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Read my comment. I said I asked the moderators to check your IP. I know who you are.

[-] 1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

You just couldn't hold back could you. I just had to push for a little while before you caved and admitted your were in deed thrasymkay, the one and only who used to post his crappy global thingy link, then the porn, and now these lame idiotic discussions.

Do you work for this site: http://unoccupywallstreet.zxq.net/HowToStop.html ?

Are you one of the TV spammers?

You can tell your boss it's not working. People are still posting on this site more than ever. There are serious discussions even though you try to avoid them. Your whole scheme is not working at all.

Pathetic.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

I like & accept the intent of the idea, but not the truth of it. How can we know the idea will truly work if it has not been fully tested, probed, & examined? You once asked, "What are the flaws of capitalism?".

In fairness, I ask, "What are the flaws of equal pay-ism?"

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

His whole idea rests on an unlimited budget, yet he hasn't yet explained where this unlimited budget comes from. It's the biggest hole in his argument and renders his idea absolutely useless because it's built on nothing but fantasy.

He's a high school student with no knowledge of economics or politics, hence his simplistic thinking.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

The case was not presented as an argument, rather a proposal to brainstorm on an idea.

[-] 1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Call it what you will. I would like to know where his unlimited budget comes from since it's the foundation upon which his whole idea is built. Unfortunately, he refuses or cannot explain this. My guess is that it has to do with magic, or that he doesn't understand the first thing about economics.

Where do you think his unlimited budget comes from?

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Everything has limits. There is no denying that criticism. It's a very raw idea. But I still like the intent of the idea - working toward more equality and fairness.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

Here Thrasy, I brought this down from a few posts above.. it was right next to one of yours.

[-]FriendlyObserverA (937) 1 points 1 day ago

The hour coin is also money .. performs the same function as the dollar bill .. I go to work to earn dollar bills , or I go to work to earn hour coins .. the motive is the same.

the basic advantage of an hour-coin, is it provides universal intrinsic value, it works together with the economy to remove the tax collecting system [which is a huge hinderence on the evolution of mankind] and it is designed to have an unlimited supply. As many hour coins as necessary will be created for as much as the labor force wants to work .. how do we prevent flooding the economy with hour -coins and causing inflation ? I can give you thew short answer, the coins will expire when spent. really could be called an hour-credit and it will simply be removed from your account. these are details .. but the main improvement of this , is how we now have an unlimited budget of hour-coins. .. never again will there be unemployment .

↥like↧dislikereplyeditdeletepermalink

[-]Thrasymaque (2777) 0 points 1 day ago

Money only represents resources like food. If there was no money, the driving force of labor would be to harness resources so that we could survive. It's very much the same thing. Money is not a problem, it's a wonderful invention.

↥like↧dislikereplypermalink

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

The unlimited budget would change the dynamics of the whole world , and yes it does exist. Thrasymaque use your little bot, I have posted bits and pieces ..go find them

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

The unlimited budget would change the dynamics of the whole world , and yes it does exist. Thrasymaque use your little bot, I have posted bits and pieces ..go find them

None other than my nemesis and poser thrasymkay, computer, and a host of other usernames. How many usernames do you have?

I should have known, you always post short badly written paragraphs filled with simplistic ideas.

Damn! You are nothing but a high school student.

Man! What a waste of my time. I'm posting to a stupid kid.

[-] 0 points by jbob (74) 2 years ago

why dont we start with a perfect country?

[-] 0 points by 666isMONEY (348) 2 years ago

I asked myself a similar question: "What will it be like in the Kingdom of God?" My conclusion was: there would be no money. (Modern machinery should make money obsolete . . . there are too many parasitical, unhealthy, unnecessary jobs.)

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

The concept of heaven makes no sense. After you die and spend a week in perfect heaven, you'll want to die instead of staying there for eternity. The problem is that you'll get extremely bored since there are no problems to solve up there in the clouds. Sure, you'll be able to have sex with the hottest angels in the sky, but even that will get boring after a few centuries. Eternity is a very long time to "live" without a single problem to solve.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

You probably don't have to worry about what will happen in heaven .. your destination will be in the opposite direction .. should keep you very happy .. with plenty of problems .. overwhelming problems ..

[-] -1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Again, are you a high-schooler?

[-] 1 points by 666isMONEY (348) 2 years ago

The Kingdom of God will be established on earth by a Messiah.

[Removed]

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Perfect is not sustainable. That is not a pessimistic view, nor an optimistic view, it is a realistic view.

Why is perfect not sustainable, you ask? Well, evolution itself prevents utopias, i.e., perfect civilizations. Even if you manage to capture it for a while, new situations & circumstances will eventually evolve and disrupt paradise. Look at the effects the worldwideweb and automation have had on our civilizations.

Now with that said. I think we can create a more 'perfect' world & I think it is wonderful to strive for greater equality and fairness. I would add respect & dignity to that list. I get where you're coming from.

I'm no economist. But I am trying to learn as much as I can. I'll provide a link to something I find very informative on breaking down the nature of capital, and how profit from derived from capital differs from profit derived from labor. It is a bit of reading, but I find it very helpful in providing some practical direction to go in toward achieving fairness, maybe it'll spark some more ideas.

http://www.progressiveliving.org/economics_frameset.htm

[-] -1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Perfection does not exist. If it did and a perfect society was somehow achieved, it would be the greatest poison ever conceived. With perfection comes the destruction of debate, the abolishment of various view points and opinions, and with this, the flood of boredom. As pointed out by Kierkegaard more than a century ago, the most dangerous enemy of the mind is boredom, and when the mind dies, there is nothing left but a wild untamed human. I guess we would become like cavemen again and find joy in endless sexual orgies. What else could we do, but to return to being unthinking grunters. After all, problems are what drive the thinking process.

It's also important to note that FriendlyObserverA's idea of equal wages throughout society is nonsensical. In such a system, nobody could hire anybody else.

[-] 1 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 2 years ago

You're right. We must move forward not backwards. I don't even want to imagine a world where I don't think about the world and question the status quo. This sounds like a horrible place. Perfection is a myth and is based on ones own opinion of what it might be. Perfection itself is imperfect.

[-] 1 points by Algee (182) 2 years ago

Please explain to me how equal pay is nonsensical.

[-] 1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago
  • It assumes all types of work have the same importance for society.
  • It assumes many people will still struggle to go through higher learning even though they could work easy jobs that pay the same from the age of 16.
  • It makes it impossible for anyone to hire anyone else because they have the same salary. I could not afford to pay FriendlyObserverA to walk my dogs and scoop their poop.
  • It assumes the problem is wealth inequality when it is not.
[-] 2 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 2 years ago

You don't really pay someone to walk your dog and clean its poop?

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

No.

[-] 1 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 2 years ago

I didn't think so.

[-] 1 points by Algee (182) 2 years ago

How is wealth inequality not a problem?

[-] 1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

It doesn't matter if some people are richer than others, what's important is that everyone has enough money to lead a decent life. Making more money should be an available option as it motivates those who want to work harder or take chances to make more money. If everyone has enough money for a decent shelter, food, and clothes, what does it matter if some have more and can afford to buy luxury items like private jets? This is only bothersome to those with an ego who easily become jealous of those who can lead more luxurious lives than them.

The problem is you believe wealth is static and finite, and not produceable. This is wrong. Wealth represent resources and we can always harvest more of those as long as our beautiful earth can withstand it.

Here's an example. Let's divide 10 tomatoes unequally between 5 people like so: 1 0 0 1 8. Let us assume that each person needs at least 2 tomatoes or they will die a horrible and tragic death. If resources were static as you believe, then there would be no other choice than to take some tomatoes away from the person who has 8 and to redistribute them to the others thusly: 2 2 2 2 2. The truth is more tomatoes can be grown so we don't need to take any away from anyone. By harvesting 6 more tomatoes we can make sure each person has at least 2 tomatoes like so: 2 2 2 2 8. Everyone lives happily and our richer person has tomatoes to spare. Who knows, he might even give some away to charity? For those with 2 tomatoes there is no difference except the knowledge that someone has more tomatoes. This only bothers the jealous.

You'll remark that if each of our persons had 1 tomato their wealth would be perfectly equal, but also perfect insufficient to keep their tragic and horrible death at bay since they need at least 2 tomatoes to survive. In this case, the unequal division of 2 2 2 2 8 is preferable.

Wealth equality is of no importance. I'd rather live in a nation where everyone has enough money to lead decent lives even if some of those people are richer than others, than live in a society where everyone is equally poor. And, a society where everyone is equally rich is not necessary because the only thing that matters is that everyone has enough money to lead a decent life.

[-] 2 points by NewEngIandPatriot (230) 2 years ago

You stated "For those with 2 tomatoes there is no difference except the knowledge that someone has more tomatoes. '

"This only bothers the jealous." This sums it all up - OWS

"a society where everyone is equally rich is not necessary because the only thing that matters is that everyone has enough money to lead a decent life."

Check and mate

[-] 1 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 2 years ago

Wow Thras I like this. It makes a great deal of sense. Bravo.

[-] 1 points by Algee (182) 2 years ago

I agree that what matters is that people can all live a decent life. But why is money the only incentive for people? And who said people would be equally poor? I think one great problem with all of this is that many people are addicted to the notion and object of money. People have gotten so used to using it, that they see no other way to make society work.

[-] 1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Money is a strong incentive because it translates into such things as the ability to buy food and feed ones family. Without money you would eventually die of starvation.

It really depends what you want to do in life. I personally don't care for money and that's why I never worked a full time job. I prefer to have time to read and to relax. Others prefer to have more wealth so they can buy themselves little luxuries like a trip in Thailand.

Money only represents resources. For example, if you want to go to Thailand you need a pilot to devote his time to you, you need engineers to make sure the planes are OK, you need someone in the control tower to spend time making sure the planes can land safely, etc... Whether money existed or not, you would need to motivate these people to somehow devote some of their time to help you go to Thailand. In a moneyless world, perhaps you could give them many eggs, or many tomatoes or some of your time in exchange for theirs. If I want to stay home and read, I don't need all these people to help so I don't need to give anyone eggs or my time.

It doesn't bother me if lawyers want to work hard so they can travel to Mexico and buy fast and beautiful cars. That's their business and it has no impact on my life. I'm happy with simple things. I always preferred time over money.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

making more money is an available option. If someone works two hours and goes home compared to someone works ten hours for the day .. the option to work longer allows one to earn more.

[-] 1 points by Algee (182) 2 years ago

This is not true in many cases, I'm sure many bosses work less hours than their employees and still get payed ten times more.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

I was referring to the equal pay scenario.. and just to mention money is not the only incentive . people find great satisfaction in work.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

And how, exactly, does that relate to the price of goods? If, say I want to but a quart of milk or loaf of bread? How does that factor in?

How does the dairy farmer get paid? Who pays for cattle feed and how?

If I earn one coin per hour, how do I pay a babysitter without working for nothing, since that babysitter gets my entire pay for every hour I work? Do I leave my infant child at home alone for two hours a day so that I can net two coins? How will I house and feed us both with only two coins to show for a day's work?

Pay scales exist for a reason, By themselves they are not evil. Making them equal does not make a perfect world. And Utopia for one is hell for another.

There will always be unequal income distribution. That's neither good nor bad. The degree to which that income is different does indeed have effects, some good, some very bad. One main point is that distribution cannot remain static from one generation to the next, that income mobility must be encouraged to be fluid, and that the income distribution is not so large that people are without basic necessities or equal opportunities for change. And the protections and basic incomes must also be guaranteed to those who are unable to work at all due to disability, lack of work, becoming new parents, taking care of sick relative or friend, and so on.

There is nothing inherently wrong with capitalism, except that if unchecked, it always leads to poverty and corruption. But balanced by regulation and a certain amount of socialism (as in social welfare and progressive taxes) it works amazingly well, spurring innovation and protecting people.

No one single system, by itself, no matter how idealistic, can work for the totality of human beings, simply because people are different and have different needs. Imposing any single system, again, no matter how altruistically it was conceived, is tyranny.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

you would not be the one paying the babysitter.

look at like this .. you own the world and you pay everyone an hour coin for an hour work . the babysitter , the , doctor , the plumber, everyone . and you have an infinite amount of hour -coins. everyone who wants to work will have opportuntiy .. now can you say that is true in this current system? are there opportunities for everyone ?

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

OK, I misunderstood your system. Sorry.

(I still don't understand how one can acquire anything, though, like food and shelter, let alone things like a larger house with a larger yard, or even a few luxuries once in a while.)

I still think it is Utopian, however, and we won't see anything close to it until we literally evolve into a different species.

For right now, I see the need for reform, not overthrow. And, with reality of human nature, - or more precisely, the various realties of various human natures - I am as certain as the bones in my body that no one system can work for everyone.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

The whole problem with FriendlyObserverA's proposed system is that he assumes his hour coins are unlimited. This assumption comes from the fact that he fails to understand that money is only a representation for resources. You can't just print more money to have more money. That floods the market and creates hyper inflation. Money is directly tied to human and natural resources. You can't solve the world's problems by simply printing a limitless amount of hour coins and distributing them throughout the population.

He doesn't understand that some types of work are more productive for society has a whole than others. Some types of work generate more of his hour coins.

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

"Money is directly tied to human and natural resources." In what world?

Money is (currently) a measure of debt, it is created when bankers get promises to pay back a debt. This system is a pyramid setup, as new borrowers are always needed to create more debt/money, and more and more are needed endlessly to keep the flow of interest rising to the top levels. This system is simple not workable in any useful way that promotes equity, nor does the money/debt have ANY connection to human or natural resources.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

A country's money is closely related to its resources. If the balance is not kept, you either have inflation or deflation.

Debt is a good and necessary aspect of a healthy economy. Stop watching Zeitgeist movies.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

it's not an assumtion, they are unlimited ..but not in the sense that they are given away freely" they are unlimited to be earned.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Nothing is unlimited. You're just playing with words. You could say the very same thing about the current economic system. Your type of talk leads nowhere.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

well I kinda think it is Utopian too :-]

of course there will be a lot of resistance from those with the most to lose if a fair system were implemented. currently many have taken advatage of the disadvantages we currently have and are prospering greatly .. they would be the most resistant I expect.. but fortunately for democracy not everyone has to agree .. just a majority ..

but you are right .. the leap is to great for any politician to take up on his platform .. USA could not even pass health care reform !

[-] -3 points by Jflynn64 (337) 2 years ago

"There is nothing inherently wrong with capitalism, except that if unchecked, it always leads to poverty and corruption. But balanced by regulation and a certain amount of socialism (as in social welfare and progressive taxes) it works amazingly well, spurring innovation and protecting people"

Why would there be any innovation in a government controlled economy? So incentives don't matter?

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Shut the fuck up.

[-] 0 points by Jflynn64 (337) 2 years ago

Testy? Don't like some one challenging your thinking.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

No, asswipe, your "question" has been asked and answered repeatedly. You are just trolling.

Go lick something stinky.

[-] 0 points by Jflynn64 (337) 2 years ago

You really have a sex problem. Are you married or have a girl friend. Maybe you should work on your language. She will like you better.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

it's not the work that has the same importance , it's the people .. that's why equal pay is fair.

As for schooling and training , since it also recieves equal pay.. so why wouldn't a student pursue their interests .. as you yourself had stated you like problem solving .. you would pursue that interest would you not ?

everyone has different interests ..

The important factor to consider , is that equal pay removes poverty from society.. and a host of other beneifits

[-] -1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Most people I met during my studies in music school were there because of their love for music. However, most people I met in other departments such as administration and law were only there because they wanted a job that pays well. You'd be surprised at how many people hate their jobs, especially lawyers and bankers. A huge percent of these people would have dropped out of school at the age of 16 had they been in a situation where 10 more years of study would not have provided a higher pay check.

The important factor to consider , is that equal pay removes poverty from society.. and a host of other beneifits

Equal pay does not remove poverty from society. It only makes it so that everyone has an equal amount of money. Nothing precludes them from being equally poor, and another society could be made up of people with unequal wealth but who are all richer than our society of the equally poor. It's not about wealth distribution, it's about wealth production. Wealth is not static.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/lets-develop-a-perfect-world/#comment-567992

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

well , you have to consider equal pay works in conjunction with an unlimited budget , thus provides opportunity for all willing .. where as currently many are willing [ billions ] but there is no money to provide them with opportunity .. so that was where I was going with that ..

as for tough jobs and deep study .. you need to ask this question: if with equal pay and paid training will their be more candidates willing to follow their interests ? currently those schooling for the tough high paying jobs are very limited by the cost of education .. so the selection is really misguided ?if I explained that right ?

[-] -1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

There is no such thing as an unlimited budget. Money doesn't come from thin air. It comes from resources.

currently those schooling for the tough high paying jobs are very limited by the cost of education .. so the selection is really misguided ?if I explained that right ?

It depends what country you are from. Education is not expensive in Canada and most European countries. This problem is particular to US. It has nothing to do with wealth equality.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

sure it does .. and also consider the people as you mentioned that want the high paying jobs ..are possibly struggling because they simply do not have the aptitude for it.. but since its the pay they are after they struggle at it .. but for many it would come easy .. this is where selection is important. and with equal pay we will select our careers based on our abilities and aptitudes and not struggle with something not suited to our natural talents..

and yes .. the whole message behind the hour-coin is that it provides unlimited access to our labor ! it is unlimited ..which completely changes the dynamics ..

I think for you to get a grasp at how this works you need to open up to the positiveness of this .. and that is the key to see its potential..

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

By and large, we do select our careers/jobs based on our skills and abilities now. You seem to suggest that there will be more freedom of choice with equal pay. How?

If a person is in a job they are not suited for, they need to make a career change. It happens all the time.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

currently student loans are quite a deterent for students to achieve their dreams and pursue the career of their choice . with the equal pay system and unlimited hour-coin, students will be paid .does that change anything in your mind ?

consider this : If I paid you to go to school and allowed you to choose the career of your choice , and in the end pay you the same pay for what ever career you choose, than your career would be based souly on your ability skill talent/ and desire .. not financial motive ..

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I think the high cost of of education can be fixed using other more conventional methods than establishing a whole new economic system. Seems like you are using an ax to fix a problem, when a butter knife will do.

Where would the money come from to pay me to go to school?

I made a career choice that I was happy with. Many many people are happy with their career choice and change careers if they are not.

I don't want to be paid the same. I like to be rewarded appropriately for my work. I want everyone to be rewarded financially, proportionate to the value of their work, their skills and abilities. I like a financial motive as part of a career choice. I can choose a career that is high paying, mid or low, within my skills and abilities. I have more choices. Obviously there are trade-offs and that is part of the choices we make.

I want the person who cures cancer to make alot of money. More money than the landscapers who take care of my trees, bushes, shrubs and grass cutting.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

well you could always leave things the way they are ..

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I don't want to completely leave things the way they are now. But I do believe that capitalism is the best economic system devised. It just needs to be restrained properly, with some additional rules and regulations. We got rid of certain rules like Glass-Steagall that enabled the financial crisis. We should bring that back. Our education system needs more investment. And the tax code is an abomination of itself and pretty much needs a total overhaul. And we should fix our political process so there isn't so much monied corruption.

These are big things to get fixed. But still realistic. It's nice to brainstorm new ideas too. But I think its important to focus our efforts on solutions that are realistic and achievable. Changing our entire economic system, at least in the relative short term, like 5-10 years, is probably not realistic. It could concievably take 5-10 years to achieve some of the other stuff, like campaign reform, fixing the tax code and re-instating Glass-Steagall. It's important to have short term goals and achieve them. Long term goals are great too, but we need to be applying the majority of our energy on the short term goals.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

Removing Glass seagal did not enable the financial crisis .. it in fact may have contributed to the boom but it was the existing free market that caused the crash. about the restrain you mention .. yes a cap on profits will oplace the restrainment in the proper place. this is achievable.

thanks for the discussion

[-] -1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Are you in high school?

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

you're getting tired ..

[-] -1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

No, I'm not tired. I'm just wondering why your ideas are so simplistic. I'd like to know if I'm wasting my time writing to a high school student.

[-] 2 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Do you realize that FriendlyObserverA is thrasymkay, the one who posted porn on this site a few weeks ago. He's also the "Donut" character, grapes, and a zillion others. He switches users every 15 minutes and always posts nonsensical idiotic and bane ideas only to waste everyone's time. Ask the moderators to cross check this guy's IP. You will be very surprised at who you've been discussion matters with.

I hate when that happens :(

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

you consider removing the tax system and replacing it with an unlimit budget a simplistic idea !

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

mix blue and rd .. I would never dream of such a thing .. but if you were to suggest equality in distribution of wealth and opportunity .. or decisions made based on fairness .. than lets continue the discussion

it isn't fairness that will take us in the right direction. It's whether it works or not. The current system is causing decline, that leads to welfare, that leads to higher taxes to pay for the welfare, an on and so forth until taxation begins destroying businesses and the demise of our country sets in. It boils down to basic economics. In capitalism, if there isn't enough capital to create the demand, there is no need for supply. The current system attempts to use all sorts of language and fancy math to deny this basic fact, but there is a reason this is the first thing you learn about economics. It is true on a micro and macro level. Our economy and indeed our plight will not improve until there is sufficient available capital to create ample demand, in turn requiring proportionate supply.

Wages. It boils down to wages. They can make all the excuses and try all the diversions they wish, but we have spent the last 30 years doing just that. We never recovered from the recession in the 90s, it just happened that the 1% spent enough to make the GDP and Wall Street look healthy, but the lack of circulating capital has caught up with them. This is why they demanded QE1-2 and now 3 but they aren't calling it QE. Basically giving the big dogs a handout because there is nothing left to drain from society, so they are just printing more as they go. The time to print our way out is coming to an end because inflation will begin kicking in this summer. at that point, we will finally see the real damage and the gov and the 1% will be forced to deal with reality, supply and demand.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Do you realize that FriendlyObserverA is thrasymkay, the one who posted porn on this site a few weeks ago. He's also the "Donut" character, grapes, and a zillion others. He switches users every 15 minutes and always posts nonsensical idiotic and bane ideas only to waste everyone's time.

Ask the moderators to cross check this guy's IP. You will be very surprised at who you've been discussing matters with.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

fairness is the deciding factor in any civilization as to whether it will stand or collapse.

the people at the top with all their concentrated wealth [ capital ],are not creating any demand. and thats where the problem is right now.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

the thing is Richard I am not trying to defend my case .. or label it .. And I am aware of most of the styles .. from monarchy to capitalism to dictatorship and even socialism .. I think they all may have something encouraging to consider .. but none of them in my opinion are perfect. I was just listening to a study of Marx capitalist.. seems Marx was very impressed with capitalism .. so even his mind was open .. which is what we all need .. and not try to place ourselves in a box.

I agree with that. On the flip side, If you decide that a blend of blue with the red would make a better purple, doesn't mean the red suddenly has no name to call it by. It's still red that you are adding to the mix.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

mix blue and rd .. I would never dream of such a thing .. but if you were to suggest equality in distribution of wealth and opportunity .. or decisions made based on fairness .. than lets continue the discussion

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Does socialism collect tax ?

That depends on what version. Please do not continue this course until you read the info in the link I gave you. It's a link to wikipedia.org and from there if you so choose you may do additional research. I would appreciate the offering of my time be reciprocated with the effort to be well armed (informed) for any debate. It would also help you to make your case, to know more about the topic at hand.

forms of socialism

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

the thing is Richard I am not trying to defend my case .. or label it .. And I am aware of most of the styles .. from monarchy to capitalism to dictatorship and even socialism .. I think they all may have something encouraging to consider .. but none of them in my opinion are perfect. I was just listening to a study of Marx capitalist.. seems Marx was very impressed with capitalism .. so even his mind was open .. which is what we all need .. and not try to place ourselves in a box.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Does socialism have an unlimited budget ?

That depends on what version.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

Does socialism collect tax ?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

the label doesn't quite fit.. none of them do ..

Yes it does. There are many forms of socialism. In the US we mistakenly define socialism by it's Marxist version but this is a false assumption especially when one considers Marxism was an extreme left ideology and other forms of socialism come very close to just left of center.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

Does socialism have an unlimited budget ?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

It's reworked socialism. period. If you want people to take you seriously, you need to not beat around the bush. Socialism has it's place but you undermine it's place if you are seemingly fearful of calling it what it is.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

the label doesn't quite fit.. none of them do ..

[-] -1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

I consider your whole idea nonsensical and the terms you use to define it unclear.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

Thrasymaque , you have a very corrosive attitude. I take back what I said . you will not be welcomed.

[-] 1 points by 666isMONEY (348) 2 years ago

If we abolished money, in a perfect society, we could build nice places to live and create art, music and etc.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Nonsense. Money is not the problem, it's a valuable part of modern societies. It's used to represent resources. If you removed money, tomatoes and egg would become the next form of money, and saving would become near impossible since eggs and tomatoes go bad if not consumed within a certain amount of time.

This idea that abolishing money would magically solve the world's problems is extremely simplistic, naïve, and becomes clearly illogical after even the tiniest bit of scrutiny.

We have real problems to solve, now is not the time to talk about fantasy. We have Playstations for that. Go play some Halo. It will put your mind to better work. And, please, stop watching Zeitgeist movies. Those nonsensical theories are dangerous for your brain.

[-] 1 points by 666isMONEY (348) 2 years ago

Simple solutions are the best. With abundance of tomatoes & eggs, there is no reason to divvy & hoard.

many famous ppl believed in eliminating money: http://666ismoney.com/MoneyQuotes.html

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Yes, I know, the process of evolution never really lets perfection develop; I guess I meant it from a more sentimental perspective. . like as in a perfect moment in time.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

Yes , I agree there needs to be room to grow . In a perfect world there will be room to grow , in fact the imagination and creativity will be completely unleashed .. what will mankind achieve !

If we look at todays world , we hav a somewhat unoppressed limit to grow and develop. Especially in the nations with freedom and democracy. But there still is a financial limit, as we see with the NASA project being mothballed due to budget restraints. The hour-coin system would not be mothballing NASA for it is an unlimited budget .. Mankind will grow continuously . Our greatest ambition is fueled by our desire to learn and explore .. develop new ideas .. this will go unlimited in a perfect world .. mankind will one day be traveling through the stars .. finding new worlds to explore ..

The idea that you will not be hiring anyone .. Well currently as they say , the rich provide jobs . which means if you have a job you are working for someone rich .. that won't happen in a perfect world of equal pay with unlimited budget .. Everyone will be equal , and yes there will be structure and job position and everyone will be at their own desired profession . without feeling lesser in any way.

In the Japan culture I have heard they decide at an early age what their children will become , what they have a best aptitude for . Something similiar will happen in a perfect world .. we will all be given tests and choices ..and guidance. not like today where most people have no clue what to pursue , and schools just shove them out without any direction ..

Yes this perfect world is attainable, MAKE NO MISTAKE.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

in fact the imagination and creativity will be completely unleashed

Imagination and creativity are unleashed when problems arise, not when everything is honky dory.

. that won't happen in a perfect world of equal pay with unlimited budget .. Everyone will be equal , and yes there will be structure and job position and everyone will be at their own desired profession .

Everyone won't be equal. Don't forget, you'll be scooping up my dogs' poo while I compose music. Sure, we'll have equal pay, but I'll have the better job.

Seriously, are you a high school student?

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

when you sit in your studio and compose music , is that out of problems , or simple desire ?

perfection is having the ability to grow.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Composing music is fun because it's all about solving problems. I like computer programming for the same reason, but there are far more problems to solve when composing music. It's not always easy, sometimes I pull my hair out because things aren't going the way I want them to.

On some days, I might let you compose while I scoop the poo. Only on some days though.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

why don't you give up ..?

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

As I said, I love to solve problems. Problems keep me from getting bored and they fuel my imagination and creativity. I program computers and discuss governmental problems on this forum for the very same reason. Problems are what make we want to get up in the morning. They must be solved so I can move on to the next ones.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

Perhaps I will ask you to solve a problem one day ?

Maybe that's why you have been so upset with me .. I am always offering solutions .. but you like problems to solve .. lol

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

I'm not upset with you. I just think your posts and comments are simplistic and that you should observe instead of typing. I think you need to spend a few years in a library.

I'm still wondering if you're in high-school?

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

It's easy to take a simple idea and make it complicated , but to take a complicated idea and simplify it is the real challenge.

trust me , what I propose is very complicated .. indeed.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

What you propose makes no sense. The fact that you cannot see that makes me believe you are a high-schooler.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

I have always been a little above average in abstract thinking. I don't expect you to fully understand .. but I was hoping someone would . as I am aware of the complexity .. but have been as you say simplifying greatly. what would help to clear up a path to understanding? perhaps we should start at the goal ?

[-] 1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

I think everyone on this forum pretty much agrees that you have a very simple mind. There's not much critical thought going on in there my friend. The fact that you don't understand this is particularly alarming.

Your only goal at the moment should be to read.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

I wrote this : And with unlimited use of our labor source we can truly achieve the greatest dream imaginable.

And you wrote this :With perfection comes the destruction of debate, the abolishment of various view points and opinions,

you are in error of understanding what I wrote.

[-] 0 points by DiogenesTruth (108) 2 years ago

"endless sexual orgies"

well, if you insist.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

It depends on who's in the room. I can put my brain on the shelf and become a grunter if the situation is promising.

[-] 0 points by DiogenesTruth (108) 2 years ago

inorder to have a perfectworld, you need perfect human beings. in first grade,were there kids who tried hard to get good grades and others who were lazy? answer is of course. were there kids who already cheated on tests and stole lunch money, yes. most, if not all kids need 2 parents, and i am ok with the parents being a committed man and woman or 2 lesbians or 2 gay men but it takes 2. so you need all couples to marry for life. no divorce. were there attractive kids and ugly kids, yes, so how do you stop that?

there s a reason we have had the 10 commandments for 1000s of years, they are needed. there is a reason we have the story of Adam and Eve.

human nature is set in our genes.

[-] -1 points by DiogenesTruth (108) 2 years ago

FOA, you have been asked a dozen times, please answer, where does your unlimited supply of coins come from? thrasymaque has asked quite falrly and you have not answered. please answer.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

quite fairly ! ?

you , thrashymaque and a few others have been insulting me with almost every message you wrote , and now you ask a question and expect an answer .. fyi your insults have not earned my respect. maybe your foul mouthed manners were accepted in the home you were raised , but they certainly were not in mine. respect is earned and you haven't earned any.

[-] 0 points by DiogenesTruth (108) 2 years ago

i will assume then you dont have an answer and your theory is useless. if you want respect, defend your ideas with honest answers. if not, you are lost.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

thats good enough for you.. keep that assumption..

[-] -1 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

I'm just gonna sit around in a park smokin' pot to earn my hour coins.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

can I ask ? are you wealthy now .. why I ask .. in past discussions it seemed to be the wealthy that were unwilling to do any actual work ..

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

I am very wealthy. I am doing much better than any OWS malcontent because I am happy. I know that it is not the people with money that are the barrier to my happiness, it is excessive governmental power. I am far more concerned about the differential in power than I am in the differential in money.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

Are you a back-rider ?

It was not the government that screwed up the economy , it was free markets.

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

What is a back-rider?

No, you are wrong. It is government control that screwed up the economy. Power is the problem.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

why are you so upset .. I thought you said you are happy

[-] 1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

He doesn't sound upset at all. I'm not sure where you got that idea. He's simply answering your simplistic questions.

Are you still in high-school? That's a serious question. Everything you post on this forum seems to be coming from an undeveloped naïve mind.

Is it OK if I call you Simplistico from now on?

[-] -1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Great! I'll work as a musician. While I spend time in my studio composing music, you'll walk my dogs and scoop up their crap. Your wife can take care of my garbage. We'll all have the same pay. Awesome setup! Great idea!

Your sir, are the most naïve and lame thinker on this forum.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

and I was just telling all my friends what a wonderful person you are ..

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I have a question about this. What happens if everyone wants to be a musician and nobody wants to be pooper scoopers? It doesn't have to be about poop. It can be anything really. I'm just using this as an example. Serious question. I envision a problem if too many people want to do one thing and not enough people want to do another. Society may not be able to function properly. Somebody has to pick up the poo ya know? Or we'll all be walking around in piles of dog crap. Rhetorically speaking.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

It's a good question. The obvious thing that comes to my mind is why do we automatically look down on the activity of picking up dog poo. If we really did have equal pay, would we interact in the same social manner as we do now. Or would we have different attitudes.

Do you currently look down on the activity of poop picker-upper? I love dogs and enjoy spending time with them. If I could pick up their poo and make equal money, why not? And I'm not talented musically, so I really wouldn't have much interest in pursuing that as a career.

One of the biggest problems with really extreme income equality is it erodes trust and empathy. It divides us into warring classes.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

Do you really think everyone will want to be musicians, and if so they will soon find out that most of them are not cut out for it but those that are will " bubble to the top and assume the position .. I consider this one method of selection , through ability and performance one achieves their place in life. and even though all positions will recieve an equal pay there will still be incentive to reach ones desired profession by applying the appropriate effort and proven ability. This method will truly see the best of the best at the top.. in all professions. there are other possibilities, certain jobs may be on a rotating schedule .. some jobs may be alotted for the elderly. the stages and cycles of life may be a determining factor to the choices we will have .. and as I mentioned earlier .. students will be evaluated and guided as per their appropriate skill and natural ability levels.. very good question April. We will constantly have to maintain a list of priorities and efficiency will always be an important factor .. it is interesting to see how mankind will develop with an unlimited budget and equal pay .. certainly there will be plenty of opportunity .. .. but as the old saying goes , you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. The rules of the game will be set , and it will be up to the players as how successful they play the game.

[-] 1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Where do you get your unlimited budget? This is the biggest hole in your argument.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

well no .. actually, you're the biggest hole in this argument.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

I guess you can't answer the question.

I'll ask again. Where in the world does your unlimited budget come from? You don't seem to understand that money simply represents natural resources and that these resources need to be harvested by human effort. Work precedes money, not the other way around. That's why the government can't just print an unlimited amount of hour coins. That would create hyper inflation. The number of your hour coins which are in circulation must represent the amount of resources in your country as closely as possible otherwise you have economic problems.

Economics certainly isn't the forte of high school students. You've made that clear.

Unless you can explain how this idea of unlimited budget actually works in practice, I'll assume you have no idea about what you are talking about.

[-] 1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Don't talk. Just pick up my dogs' poo. I'll send the check in the mail. Thanks.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

lol. You're in a funny mood today. I like that.

[-] -1 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

please don't encourage her.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

lol. Oh come on, it was kinda funny. He's going to do what he does with or without encouragement. I actually think its good that he was being so humorous today. It's healthy. We can't all be so serious all the time. And he's usually always serious. I think it's good when we can make eachother laugh around here and laugh at our selves too. Its a good reminder that we're all human beings with feelings. Not just organized alphabets on a cold computer screen.

Your post below made me laugh also - " the dark side". He is a little dark sometimes. lol.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

Thrasymaque, is a she .

[-] 1 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 2 years ago

How would you even know this?

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

obviously the question challenges you .

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Obviously.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverA (610) 2 years ago

Thrasymaque, whenever you decide to leave the dark side.. we will welcome you.

[-] -2 points by capella (199) 2 years ago

there is no perfect world, there can never be a utopia. it goes against human nature.