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Forum Post: Lessons from the Early History of the Church of Latter Day Saints Beware the Mormon in the Grass

Posted 2 years ago on Oct. 20, 2012, 3 p.m. EST by bestevidence (170)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/10/19/beware-the-mormon-in-the-grass/

by CHRISTOPHER KETCHAM

In the beginning, as we know, was the Word of one Joseph Smith Jr., founder of the Mormon Church, finder of the so-called Golden Plates from which he was able to translate the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith today in Mormon theology is considered “the prophet, priest and king.” When Mitt Romney avows “My faith is the faith of my fathers—I will be true to them,” the father he invokes is Smith.

This should be highly troubling. In the few authoritative biographies of the prophet Smith – the ones not censored by the Mormon establishment – he comes off both as a good-natured grifter and a venomous sociopath. Kay Burningham, ex-Mormon and author of “An American Fraud: One Lawyer’s Case against Mormonism,” writes that Mormonism “was founded on deception, and continues to build upon that deception.” Its founders – Joseph Smith and family – “were opportunists, driven to create an organization where they could acquire the social status and financial resources that they lacked.” Historian and ex-Mormon Will Bagley, author of many books of Mormon history, says Mormonism can be interpreted critically as “a religious Ponzi scheme and swindle.”

The swindle starts in 1829, after Joe Smith claims to “find” the Golden Plates buried in a mound in upstate New York. According to Smith, the story on the plates had been carved in 421 A.D. by a lost tribe of white people living among Native Americans. Smith was mighty pleased: He had found God’s word, and he would bring the good news to the world. Smith, a semi-literate farm boy schooled in the soaring language of the Bible, had of course invented the Book of Mormon out of his perfervid imagination.

This was no small achievement. He was a smart guy – like most grifters. And he had a family schooling in the art of cheating the gullible: His father, Joseph Sr., had been repeatedly charged with currency counterfeiting in Vermont in the 1820s.

Joseph Jr. himself was hauled into court in the northeastern U.S. on multiple occasions, accused of confidence games and charged with fraud. He was described in a New York court proceeding, in 1826, as “a disorderly person and an impostor.” One of his preferred cons involved the help of his brother Hyrum. While visiting a neighboring household, Hyrum would secretly hide a valuable heirloom. When days later the victim complained that they could not find the prized object, Hyrum came to the rescue: He volunteered his brother Joe Jr. to show up, for a small fee, and put “magic stones” into a hat. Joe would then put the hat over his face, and stare into the stone-filled darkness to see where the lost object was – the location of which his faithful brother had already provided.

Smith said his ethical rule was, “When the Lord commands, do it.” This was convenient, as it was decreed, by Joseph Smith, that the Lord would only communicate with – you guessed it – Joseph Smith. Early on, he receives a message from the Lord about “plural marriage”: God commanded that all Mormon men, especially Joseph Smith, take multiple wives and establish the tradition of Mormon polygamy. Even his wife at the time, the first among many, was skeptical.

On and on it goes. The Mormon sect grows throughout the 1830s and 1840s, and so do the scams: Land theft, bank fraud, cattle rustling. Historian Will Bagley describes what happened when the Mormons, fleeing westward, settled in Missouri and Illinois: “After stirring up a religious civil war in Missouri and being exiled to Illinois, Smith founded a kingdom on the Mississippi at Nauvoo, Illinois. Having secured a charter that made him ruler of a city state and a wealthy land developer, Smith raised a private army, made himself America’s first lieutenant general since George Washington, and began seducing women and barely pubescent girls with an abandon that would make Bill Clinton blush.”

Other Mormon converts also began to look askance at sainted Joe, and today their accounts read like those of cult escapees. “When I embraced Mormonism, I conscientiously believed it to be of God,” wrote a disaffected convert in 1831. “I now know Mormonism to be a delusion.” Mostly what the church wanted, as with modern-day cults, was the property and cash of converts, along with their free labor. Joseph Smith’s own personal secretary watched the fleecing of those newly drawn into the fold and concluded that Smith and other church fathers were “confirmed Infidels, who have not the fear of God before their eyes. They lie by revelation, swindle by revelation, cheat and defraud by revelation.”

Smith ended up murdered by a lynch mob in Illinois in 1844. It’s not a surprising turn, given the level of animosity that Mormon criminality had evoked among non-Mormons – the “filthy Gentiles” who were Mormons’ preferred victims.

The Mormons fled still further west, looking for the Holy Land, the Zion of prophecy, where they could settle without interference from the Gentiles. They discovered Zion in the stony sunblasted wilderness of Utah, where the new prophet, Brigham Young, soon ordered the slaughter of 150 men, women and children traveling across Mormon territory in the southern part of the state. This was the infamous Mountain Meadows Massacre of 1857, prompted by an apocalyptic hysteria that the US government was planning to invade Utah and destroy Brigham Young’s people. The apocalypse never came to pass; the US government did not care to crush the Mormons. Meanwhile, 150 innocent people on a wagon train bound for California had been rounded up and murdered in cold blood, their bodies buried by Mormon authorities to cover up the evidence.

By the mid-1850s, W.A.F. Magraw, a personal friend of President Franklin Pierce, would conclude that civil law in the Mormon territory was “overshadowed and neutralized [by an] ecclesias­tical organization, as despotic, dangerous and damnable as has ever been known to exist in any country…all alike are set upon by the self-constituted theocracy, whose laws, or rather whose conspiracies, are framed in dark corners.” An early official historian of the Mormon theocracy, John Corrill, who would later repudiate the church, had also seen Mormonism from the inside. Corrill accused the Mormon leadership of “bad management, selfishness, seeking for riches, honor, and dominion, tyrannizing over the people, and striving constantly after power and property.”

Laws undermined by conspiracies; outrageous privilege coupled with unbounded greed and power-maddened mismanagement – this sounds a lot like a description of Corporate America today, which perhaps explains why our current Mormon moment is really about Mormonism’s engagement and success in the corporatocracy. In this context, think about Mitt Romney: Here is a man who, as head of the leveraged buy-out firm Bain Capital, got rich as an opportunistic “vulture capitalist,” exploiting and plundering the hard work of others. Romney indeed keeps the faith of his fathers.

Christopher Ketcham writes for Harper’s, the American Prospect, Orion, and many other magazines. He can be reached at cketcham99@mindspring.com

126 Comments

126 Comments


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[-] 3 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 1 year ago

Mitt Romney believes Jesus visited America

[-] 2 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

The one I like is the white Jewish Indians. A laugh riot.

[-] 3 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 1 year ago

I am an ex-mormon and I think the facts in the article are accurate, but I don't think it is very relevant to whether someone is a good choice for public office. I don't think Romney would be a good choice, but that's not because he's mormon.

A lot of very good people are born into, or join the church and they have no knowledge about the truth about Joseph Smith. The story we are taught in Sunday school is very different.

Even though I left that church, I have, and would, vote for a mormon for public office if I thought he or she were the best candidate. Romney should be rejected on his own merits, not because of what Joseph Smith did.

[-] 2 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 1 year ago

That sounds very reasonable.

[-] 1 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

We differ, because I believe that the growth of the Mormon cult, which would be spurred on and encouraged should Romney win, is a clear and present danger to many people and I will do what I can to stop that.

[-] 1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 1 year ago

That's an interesting perspective. I tend to think that Romney's nomination and resulting spotlight on the church, has hurt the religion far more than it has helped it.

[-] 1 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

Yes, perhaps. Because people are asking themselves what Mormonism is and with the internet at hand almost anyone can learn a whole lot more than the LDS would like to see. I hope to contribute too that process.

[-] -1 points by marvelpym (-184) 1 year ago

If they are such a danger, maybe we should start putting them in camps.

[-] 1 points by frogmanofborneo (602) from New York, NY 1 year ago

Considering the fact that the LDS Church in Nazi Germany assisted the Nazis in determining who did and who did not have Jewish ancestry through the use of their extensive geneology file your remark is grossly insensitive, don't you think so?

[-] -2 points by marvelpym (-184) 1 year ago

that was the point. the other moron (can't remember his screenname) would always try to redirect his own ignorance and bigotry by associating Mitt with the Nazis, ignoring the relation to his own irrational fear and hatred of the Mormons to what German politicians did to the Jews. what a mouth breathing waste of space that loser was.

[-] 2 points by frogmanofborneo (602) from New York, NY 1 year ago

The LDS deserves to be associated with the Nazis, as they did assist in helping them uncover people who had Jewish ancestors in order that those people be made to suffer, often to die. Mitt is linked to that association, and their white supremacist theology ices the cake.

[-] -2 points by marvelpym (-184) 1 year ago

Go get 'em. Start with Mia Love.

[-] 2 points by frogmanofborneo (602) from New York, NY 1 year ago

No, I'll start with Mitt Romney. In a cult like LDS there are only two kinds of people- manipulators and manipulated- I'll start with the big time manipulators, thank you very much.

[-] -1 points by marvelpym (-184) 1 year ago

David Koresh is lucky he's already dead then.

Good luck with that. When you are done, be a dear and go help Captain America defeat Hydra.

[-] 0 points by frogmanofborneo (602) from New York, NY 1 year ago

I agree with best on this one- the mass murder of the Koresh cultists was a crime that has yet to be answered for. I believe that murder has no statute of limitations.

[-] 0 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

I opposed what the US government did to the Koresh compund and the people who lived inside it. I still think that Bill Clinton should be put on trial for that.

[-] 1 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

I hope that that never becomes neccessary.

[-] -1 points by marvelpym (-184) 1 year ago

I'm sure we can count on you to lead the putsch and pogrom if it ever comes to that. what size brownshirt do you wear?

[-] 2 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

I'm an old guy with arthritis of the knees so I will leave that stuff to the younger. And given my place in this world is in sunset and not dawn I will leave the decision of when these folks have to be confronted physically to the young who have more at stake than I do.

[-] -2 points by marvelpym (-184) 1 year ago

And with you unable to step in, my brethren and I in the Esoteric Order of Dagon will be unstoppable and mighty Cthulhu will rise again! Bwah ha ha ha ha ha!

Seriously, you are out of your mind.

[-] 2 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

You've brought me to my senses. When a sane person (me) converses with a deluded person (you) the sane person appears to all who might observe to be as lost and deluded as his interlocutor. With this "aha moment" fully comprehended I bid you farewell and adieu.

[-] -2 points by marvelpym (-184) 1 year ago

Bwah ha ha ha ha ha!

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

There are so many great reasons to chastise and chase Romney out of town.... stick to those.

[-] 0 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

Well, yes, there are. Mormonism happens to be one of them, and one that the Obama campaign and the DNC for obvious reasons will not touch. Why shouldn't folks learn about the beliefs of the potential next president?

[-] 2 points by 2percent (0) 1 year ago

Let's try to keep discussing the candidates capabilities and their positions on real issues versus their religious backgrounds. I do not care about Rev. Wright or the Mormon religion. The ability to improve the economy is more important than where they go to church. I believe both of these men are diverse enough to separate the religion and the job as president.

[-] 2 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

If a candidate's beliefs are to lie and deceive and are racist it matters. Thus it matters to stop Mitt Romney. It maters also because a victory for Romney will almost inevitably be a boost for recruitment into the racist deceptive cult. Gotta try and stop that.

[-] 1 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

If a candidate's beliefs are to lie and deceive and are racist it matters. Thus it matters to stop Mitt Romney. It maters also because a victory for Romney will almost inevitably be a boost for recruitment into the racist deceptive cult. That creates danger in the political arena for black people and others as well. Gotta try and stop that.

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Meh, when Mormom missionaries came to Australia, we made sport out of them. Can't believe that such a beast was allowed to breed in the US. Were they part of the illuminati or some shit like that?

Roll these phukkers under if they have delusions of grandeur.

Screw that. If they can't accept the fact that we're all equal, then send them back to the maker.

[-] 2 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

"Screw that. If they can't accept the fact that we're all equal, then send them back to the maker." Strong words. I take it that's rhetorical, right?

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I have no idea what Mormons believe, but if they're anything like JW's, then they assume that they are the only people going to heaven. And that makes them the separatist, elitist phreaks.

It's people like that you should be questioning.

[-] 4 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

I very much do not like Mormonism. What I'm not going to be a part of is any implication that people ought to do physical harm to Mormons. I am not saying that and I don't advocate that and I am against that.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Joseph Smith was a Freemason, don't know if his lodge had been infiltrated by the Illuminati by that time though.

The British empire, which was completely infiltrated by Illuminati, later sponsored the Mormon movement to create division in the US.

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I'm still in favour of identifying this supremacist illuminati group, and hunting them down. There was no problem with tracking down supremacist nazis, and this group of plotting evil arseholes is clearly more dangerous to the rest of the population than the nazis ever were.

So where's the outcry? Where's the witch-hunt? Are people that cowed and beaten that they can recognise the enemy, but do nothing about them?

Grow some phukking balls, people.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Most people don't even know or believe that the Illuminati exist. But before you go calling everybody else cowards, what are you doing to "hunt these people down". Do you really expect an average citizen to walk into a banker's office and shoot him?

Benjamin Fulford, a past editor of Fortune Magazine in Japan has spoken the most about an Asian secret society planning to assassinate Illuminati, as well as US military and militia attempting to shut them down:

"The people in charge at the US agencies and military know the presidential election scheduled for November 8th will be a fraud and a sham no matter what the outcome. That is why many reliable sources are saying US militias and reserve troops were put on alert last week. They have either started to mobilize either to pre-empt the elections and put the Joint Chiefs of Staff in charge of an interim government or to get ready to act in anticipation of post-election violence and chaos, depending on who you talk to...

A lot of shadowy organizations have also now informed the White Dragon Society that, should they stand in the way, certain prominent individuals around the world are scheduled to die of stroke, heart attack, cancer or bullet wound over the coming weeks."

http://benjaminfulford.typepad.com/

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Excellent. Thanks for putting me in my place.

What am I doing to eliminate these arseholes? As you say, very little.

And then we have the possibility of a global pole shift on the 21st of December this year. Apparently it's already happening.

[-] 1 points by NVPHIL (664) 1 year ago

About that pole shift. It is supposed to be caused by an allignment of the earth, sun, and the center of the galaxy. The thing is that same allignment happens every year.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

There's a planet called Nubiru or something like that. It will be orbiting into our solar system in two months, and when it comes between the earth and the sun, all kinds of unknown things will possibly happen.

The inversion of the poles has happened before, and that's scientifically proven. It's not conspiracy. NASA would be aware of this. The reality is, nobody knows how quickly the poles will shift.

It could be catastrophic, and it could be kind and gentle. Nobody has any information about it.

[-] 1 points by NVPHIL (664) 1 year ago

I've heard about the planet but from what I read gravity models indicate no other gravitational influences on the sun. Before we found the outer planets those same models couldn't explain how the solar system held together. Since the same models show the solar system interacting how they predict with the known planets I find it unlikely another planet orbiting the sun unlikely. Sorry if I got a bit long winded but the subject is fascinating.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

It is fascinating.

The inversion of the poles has happened before, and it will happen again. Why it happens is still up for conjecture, but a gradual shift in magnetic north happens every calendar year. Last year, aviation authorities noticed a huge (several degrees) shift in the auto-pilot readings for robot landings of commercial jets.

Planes were running wide of landing strips all over the world. You might recall some of the incidents. Planes ending up in rivers, etc.

Auto-pilot operation of planes relies on a combination of compass bearings and satellite navigation systems. When weathe conditions are extreme, the sat-nav reverts to compass to more accurately assess positioning for landing.

Should the poles shift even twenty degrees (as NASA predictions assume) Australia will be moved into the tropics, and so will north America.

[-] 1 points by NVPHIL (664) 1 year ago

That will be a shock to the northern states. The questions this raises about changes to weather systems is interesting and a little scary. We keep thinking the world will stay the same for us and don't even think about the billions of years it took to reach this point and how delicate the whole eco system is.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

The worst scenario is that the polar shift will happen macro-scale, meaning the crust of the earth will rotate forty degrees in minutes. The atmosphere will take time to catch up, meaning there will be winds approaching mach 4 or five metres a second. Not much of our infrastructure will survive this. If it does, there will be five hundred metre high tsunamis to deal with.

Fun times. No wonder the Mayans said it was time to cash your chips in.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26863) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Don't worry too much about the wind in that scenario - No - be more concerned about the water displacement.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Yeah, I'm up in the mountains, and I have a deep well with a ladder.

I'm up for any kind of change. I seriously don't think it's armageddon.

If it is, I'm happy to have made your aquaintance. ;-)

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26863) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Does not help to worry about it - as at this point in time - everyone is guaranteed the experience ( guaranteed participant ) - so I always figured to do the best I could with whatever time I had. No loss if there is nothing to follow - just the fact of having lived ( or tried to live ) well.


[-] 2 points by Builder (2874) 14 minutes ago

I really like your optimism.

I'm a lover of radical weather conditions.

Bring it on, mother nature. Or Nubiru, or whatever your name is. LOL

Death is one thing we all must confront in our own way. I choose to smile at it. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26863) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Well - unlike many - I do not believe that Armageddon will be the end of all. So perhaps we will meet in the new system - that would be really outstanding/awesome/cool/far-out.

BTW - I do believe in a life after death. So - even if Armageddon is a nasty mess - there is still the possibility of much better to follow. {:-])

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I really like your optimism.

I'm a lover of radical weather conditions.

Bring it on, mother nature. Or Nubiru, or whatever your name is. LOL

Death is one thing we all must confront in our own way. I choose to smile at it.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26863) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

No - the north south magnetic shift is supposed to be due to changes in the configuration of the earths molten core.

[-] 1 points by NVPHIL (664) 1 year ago

That's the first that I heard that theory. I always hear the allignment will cause a gravity increase which will flip the earth. I looked it up and saw a video with dr. tyson which went over this. Just the way he said it was awesome and really stuck with me.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26863) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

There is a lot of conjecture/theories as to what will happen and how it will happen - some say catastrophic some say mild - though most say danger of loss of magnetic shield from solar wind for an unspecified period of time - so possible major loss of life from that.

[-] 1 points by NVPHIL (664) 1 year ago

I'll need to look into that. The shift would be bad enough but to lose protection from the solar radiation. Even relatively short term could cause cancer or even cellular mutations.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26863) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Exactly - depending on how long the shield was down - or how much of the earth's surface was left unprotected for a significant period of time. A major shift of the earth's crust might be better to experience instead. Look at the Nova web site - they have had some pretty good shows speculating on the magnetic field shift.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26863) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

NO - not the north south pole flip flop!!!!

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Yes, the world is in a very dangerous situation these days, and we'd all like to see something done about it.

I think that the situation is getting so bad, however, that it will either:

  1. Get worse, and we'll have global war followed by global dictatorship, or

  2. A revolution / civil war in which those attempting to establish a dictatorship will be overthrown.

[-] -1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 1 year ago

Are you advocating genocide for mormons? Do you think that my sisters and brother, nieces and nephews, aunts and uncles should be killed? You are talking about the people I love most in this world.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I just don't have any tolerance for people who assume superiority over anyone else, just because they've read some text, and then align themselves with a strict belief system (usually just for one day a week).

I'm not advocating genocide for anyone. I just think that all this religious garbage is a leftover from an age we should all have gotten past by now.

And the psyche of a nation that looks the other way, when real torture and real murder and real genocide is happening in the name of their pretend Christian leaders, is what I'm on about here.

Rant over.

[-] 1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 1 year ago

Thanks for clarifying. I agree that the arrogance of some mormons is pretty hard to take. It was just disturbing to me when you used terms like "send them back to the maker" and you can't believe they were "allowed to breed". Afterall, if mormons hadn't been allowed to breed, I wouldn't be here. :)

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Then I do apologise. A close friend watched his family disintegrate because mother adopted JW as a religion, and father didn't .

I was raised a protestant with a Catholic father. To my mind, it's all rhetoric from the minds of men.

[-] 3 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 1 year ago

Thank you Builder. I can understand your anger at the harm caused to relationships from these supposed "only true churches". It is truly tragic.

I am very fortunate, that my family has remained close despite our religious differences. I know that not everyone is as lucky.

[-] 1 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 1 year ago

Very interesting. On the other hand, maybe the HBO series 'Big Love' had more fans than anyone thought. Life immitates art much of the time.

[-] 1 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

Yeah, but a lot of conservative and moderate potential voters are turned off by that stuff - and people who might find that entertaining won't want that in the White House- now yeah the LDS says they've sworn off that stuff but the fact is they had to swear it off a couple of times before and Romney gramps went to Mexico in order to be a part of a polygamous community. Also many just don't trust either Romney or Mormonism or both. Given this election may be decided by a relative handful of votes I do my little part to add to this trend.

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[-] -2 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 2 years ago

God ZenDog! As much as I don't agree with you, I can't believe that YOU would stoop to even this level of stupidity. I'm starting to believe that you'd eat pure crap if someone claiming to be a Democrat handed it to you and called it chocolate pudding. siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh

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[-] 0 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Well, historically, it's basically true. But the something as perverse behavior that drove them west doesn't complete the story of Brigham Young, or persecution in Missouri and Illinois, by those who saw them as an economic and territorial threat. Which of course led to the Mormon wars.

And this is the reason very few would accept your lie of Romney and Ryan as liars.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

both candidates accuse each other of lying

is there really a choice when the polite can not be trusted?

[-] -2 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

The Left historically has had no mandate to truthfulness. That's why I vote right.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

don't believe in the political left/right paradigm

talk about religion

[-] 1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

See the above, honesty is my religion.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

I thought it was the allegiance to the left/right paradigm

[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Nah, somewhere we parted logic, cause that wasn't me; I consider myself a party of one.

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[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Well, let's face it, there are any number of tortured souls in this world. But it seems a clear choice between hope for a that which is proposed versus the lie to cover that which has already been enacted; this is what they call the "audacity" of hope.

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[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

I would prefer a responsible and rational approach; empowering insurance companies and robbing tax payers is not the correct approach. What we have is the rich promoting the rich, and everyone that is not in poverty, suffers.

Irrational, dysfunctional, government.

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[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Well one has to wonder about the inner machinations that would produce such an atrocity; the Republicans say it is not theirs and Democrats say they had nothing do with it. And working-class Americans are once again eating shit that is destined to cost them, next year, how much? Five, ten thousand dollars in higher healthcare costs and the loss of deductions?

[-] -1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 2 years ago

The FACT is that you believe what you choose to believe...whether it's based on actual facts or not.

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[-] 0 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

She's with us, why are you here?

As insane as it sounds, some of what Smith said regarding the indigenous as Israelites who arrived by canoe is partially true - we have indigenous remains that far predate the Bearing Straight migration. Which science has been ignoring because they can offer no explanation; they're very pigheaded people.

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[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

I don't find them to be holy hoaxes, at all. And what's even more interesting is that settlers to Jamestown encountered what they believed to be Europeans. In fact, many accounts describe the Native American in the northeast as of European descent; settlers had determined that they were immigrants and not wholly indigenous. Even if we were to apply just simple math to linguistics, 11,000 years is not possible. But, you know, science has a mandate to preserve their credibility and so they continue to shove the errors of their natural philosophy down our throats in many areas.

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[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

I didn't suggest Semitic migration, that was Joseph Smith; I suggested a possible European migration, so did the colonials, and so have our archeologists and our linguists.

Lest some get the wrong idea, I am the very last to suggest a violent political solution but I've been concerned about Obama, too. People are definitely not as fearful as you think they are.

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[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Fear of the other is the main line of both parties, as is seen in all of their tv commercials.

There is very little vision. Simply attacks. No going door to door, no townhall meetings. Just attacks. Attack..........attack........attack,,,,

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[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

No offense but its all generic crap that we said in 08. Lead the world in college grads? China?

Ive been on his site plenty. Its all bullshit. And if any of it was real, instead of beating around the Bush, we would see Congress presenting bills and a much different presidential debate.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I dont see either one using facts. I see one whose vision is totally a sell out of the entire country (R) and I see another who has really no plan to deal with antyhing (D).

Both lead to the bottom.

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[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

No.. fear is a word I injected. What I'm worried about are the exact same things every other working and middle class American is worried about; these are not a concern for the rich, and definitely not a concern for the poor.

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[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Those who strive to be old and wise are already old, and from the very day of my birth I was always the oldest... the oldest child, the oldest grandchild; I was always old, very old - just - plain - old.

And as you know, the elderly are known for being hyperopic; if their vision extends to the end of their nose they count themselves lucky.

Perspicacity, veracity... that is what we strive for. Because the entire future weighs in the balance. Or so we think.

Interrelationships don't account for much, don't amount to much; if you don't believe this you've never been seriously ill; if you have you've made the acquaintance, been introduced, to the precariousness of it all - confrontational, it confronts you, alone, or with family - right there, in your face, glad to meetcha and now I'm gonna beat-cha.

Yup, myopic...

Bu those who are aware have no visions - visionaries have no visions - and have little use of prophecy; it's about the ability to discern and that is a myopic function.


For those who haven't noticed, the mods here always get the last laugh: see below.

Behold: Dog Latin!

By any chance, Dog, could you say that again in Anglish, without all the anguish?

[Removed]

[-] -2 points by Grimreaper2 (-318) 2 years ago

As if "facts" have anything to do with the totalitarian agenda of the Left.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 1 year ago

amen

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

And what candidate would you accept on blind faith if the republican party handed it to you? Did you know that "Veterans Today" is beginning to investigate Romney's role in drug money laundering:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/10/17/la-times-romneys-a-drug-money-launderer/

Perhaps this is just the highest level of scamming, as Mormon's are recognized to engage in.

[-] -2 points by Grimreaper2 (-318) 2 years ago

You are just learning that?

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

I knew all about the planets as a very young child

my playmate had a rocket ship room with a steering wheel closet door

and the solar system strewn along the walls

[-] 1 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

how nice.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

Into The Woods part 16 - Your Fault / Last Midnight

  • you're so nice, you're just nice
  • you're not good, you're not bad
  • you're just nice
[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

I think everybody knows the story of Joseph Smith. And Brigham Young. The question becomes, can the Mormon faith, with its moral mandate to family and prosperity, bear the failure of a Romney? Or will his public presence as a church representative drive him above personal interest to improve the current dystopia which is us?

[-] 1 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

I'm someone who refuses to hold a conversation with you in particular especially on this forum and here is why:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/yobstreet-defender-of-the-mormons-is-not-your-frie/

So go eat shit and die, okay?

[-] -2 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Pretty interesting... what's even more interesting is that anything said in the forums can be googled; and everyone I know, knows who I am.

I stand by all earlier statements - your attack on the Mormons is partisan, demented, and despicable.

[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Equating Romney, as past governor of one of the most liberal states in the nation, with the Nazis is a little far out, don'tcha think?

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_know_if_someone_is_a_sociopath

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Romney joined because he feared the draft.

His father just wanted more than one wife.

[-] 0 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

I'd like more than one wife, and while you might label that as "perverse," I certainly would not; he's got my vote. There were a lot of draft dodgers then in the form of college student - they received deferments, while those that lacked the aptitude or the financial ability went to vietnam. These student fearfuls later vented their self angst to damn the less fortunate as "baby killers." And many of these idiots are with us still; such a shame... nothing good has ever come of them.

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

The point is, the religion aspect is bogus, just like it was with your last prez.

What you do with your girls is your choice, pimp.

[-] 1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Thank you for so generously permitting me to pursue my own life.

Yea it is bogus, but look at Obama, he's displaying his public god in any variety of forms these days. The Left drools because they know it isn't true; well, nothing about the guy is true.

I was a Huckabee supporter first, a Pawlenty supporter second. Even Rick Santorum would have been a better choice; albeit like Pawlenty, somewhat young. So I'm not happy, either.

We're going to have to fashion another president; we've had no luck with Obama.

[-] 3 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Who ever said I was pro-Obama?

If you took a short look at my posts from the last two days, you'll clearly see that I'm pro-independent.

Pay attention, ol' mate. Okay?

[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Yea but look - if you said nothing at all, I'd have nothing at all to respond to, would I?

Because it was there...

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Okay, so long as you're keeping notes.

It's not an overnight job ya know?

[-] -1 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 2 years ago

Sounds nuts. Must have something to do with religion.

[-] 1 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

Religious people have laid down their lives for the less fortunate in this world. Some religions though, hold poverty to be a self willed crime and Mormonism is one of those. A big problem with Mormonism is that it is an politically active cult and disciplined one, something akin to a political army and I'd like to stop their spread.

[+] -4 points by Grimreaper2 (-318) 2 years ago

Oh my god! The Mormons are going to kill all of us!

[-] 1 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

Actually if left unchecked Mormonism will make the lives of millions of people more miserable and the bellicosity of this cult will result in more people killed in war, so you are in part correct.

[-] 0 points by Grimreaper2 (-318) 1 year ago

You must be a great prophet!

Get a grip.

[-] 1 points by bestevidence (170) 1 year ago

Don't need to be a prophet. Just have to watch Mormonism and study it a bit to understand where they are going.

[-] -2 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 2 years ago

ROFL!!! How on earth have them blasted Marmons been able to hide the truth for so long?

Does Mr Ketcham mention that after the mob murdered Joseph Smith, US citizens drove thousands of men, women and children from their homes in the dead of winter, stole their land and homes and property and the Governor of Missouri issued an Extermination Order (Executive Order 44) that wasn't rescinded until 1976?

Mr. Ketcham is full of something, but it's not FACTS.

www.fairlds.org

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 1 year ago

They haven't been able to hide the truth and taht's going to be their undoing. If the Governor of Missouri wanted them shot on sight and was not impeached perhaps that was a popular feeling. Why would that be so? And wow! it took till the 1970's for Missouri to repeal tht order. Popular cult those Mormons are.

[+] -4 points by Grimreaper2 (-318) 2 years ago

You misunderstand something. If murder/rape/oppression/happens to so called Christian "cults" the liberal/left scum don't care. In fact most of them will approve. The Left has no true religion other than Marxism.

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 1 year ago

The US right now is assisting murder rape and repression against Christians in Syria. What would you say about that?

http://occupywallst.org/forum/living-as-a-christian-in-the-hell-of-aleppo-besieg/

[-] 0 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

I would say it was extremely stupid of the US to supply anyone with ties to Syria with guns. Would you agree?

[-] 2 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 1 year ago

Yes, but the two governing parties are in basic agreement about this matter. The "debate" last night was not so much content as about style. Agree?

[-] -1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 2 years ago

Yes I know. And they'll malign anyone and anything if they think it will drive their agenda another mile down the road. That is what kills the progressive/socialist/Marxist movements every time. The fact that they can no longer smell the crap they fling but everyone else can. History repeats itself over and over and....

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 1 year ago

The US right now is assisting murder rape and repression against Christians in Syria. What would you say about that?

http://occupywallst.org/forum/living-as-a-christian-in-the-hell-of-aleppo-besieg/

Liberal are not Marxists and anarchists are not Marxists. In fact Marx wasn't one either.

Marx-Engels Correspondence 1890

Engels to C. Schmidt In Berlin

Abstract

Transcription/Markup: Brian Baggins; Online Version: Marx/Engels Internet Archive (marxists.org) 2000.

London, August 5, 1890

[ ....]

I saw a review of Paul Barth's book [Die Geschichtsphilosophie Hegels und der Hegelianer bis auf Marx und Hartmann] by that bird of ill omen, Moritz Wirth, in the Vienna Deutsche Worte, and this book itself, as well. I will have a look at it, but I must say that if "little Moritz" is right when he quotes Barth as stating that the sole example of the dependence of philosophy, etc., on the material conditions of existence which he can find in all Marx's works is that Descartes declares animals to the machines, then I am sorry for the man who can write such a thing. And if this man has not yet discovered that while the material mode of existence is the primum agens [primary agent, prime cause] this does not preclude the ideological spheres from reacting upon it in their turn, though with a secondary effect, he cannot possibly have understood the subject he is writing about. However, as I said, all this is secondhand and little Moritz is a dangerous friend. The materialist conception of history has a lot of them nowadays, to whom it serves as an excuse for not studying history. Just as Marx used to say, commenting on the French "Marxists" of the late [18]70s: "All I know is that I am not a Marxist."