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Forum Post: Left Forum 2015 Part 2

Posted 7 years ago on June 4, 2015, 2:50 p.m. EST by trashyharry (3084) from Waterville, NY
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Session 2(5/30/15):Democracy at Work:Achieving Social Change Through Worker Coops...Panelists included Maria Carnemolla,Richard D.Wolff,Carmen Huertas Noble,Michael Peck,Ted De Barbieri.This discussion was actually very informative as there were extensive remarks by the 2 lawyers,C.H.Noble&T.De Barbieri,along with interesting information provided by m.Peck,who is the N.A.Delagate for Mondragon.The Panelists proceeded with the theory that Worker's Cooperatives are actually a viable solution to Capitalism and its many problems,and the Self Directed Enterprise might well be the most profoundly corrective alternative of any known at this time for such problems as the continuously worsening income and wealth inequalities we are seeing.About a third of the available time was spent discussing the problems encountered when trying to set up or convert an enterprise from the old model of owners/board of directors to a model based on an enterprise that is managed by workers in a democratic manner.It was pointed out by the Mondragon Representative that one of the main obstacles in such endeavors is that workers themselves often are the main obstacle to the transition.What was done in such cases was a move to a non-profit model that is not exactly a democratic situation.So there was some discussion of whether or not it's desirable to utilize non-democratic methods in pursuit of democracy.All of the panelists had interesting and relevant presentations.There was a short q&a at the end.Summary:A good presentation with plenty of useful information.



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[-] 5 points by lugano (1221) 6 years ago

Read: ''Wall Street Parasites Have Devoured Their Hosts - Your Retirement Plan & the U.S. Economy'': http://wallstreetonparade.com/2015/08/michael-hudsons-new-book-wall-street-parasites-have-devoured-their-hosts-your-retirement-plan-and-the-u-s-economy/ Alarming - but Solidarity for #S17--#4 to you, th.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 6 years ago

Stock buybacks and all mergers and acquisitions are cursed in the Bible. Isaiah 5:8 "Woe to you who add house to house and join field to field till no space is left and you live alone in the land."

Reflect upon the sorry state of humanity around the holiest of holies for billions of peoples, Jerusalem. O! Daughters of Zion, that was the writing in "ihr Buch." Read and teach so we shall all live free in His Light and not die!

[-] 4 points by lugano (1221) 6 years ago

Wtf have "Daughters of Zion" to do with The Price Of Bacon? Und Ich nicht kaufen ihren Buch!

&: http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jan/20/oxfam-85-richest-people-half-of-the-world

[-] 3 points by grapes (5232) 6 years ago

Be culturally sensitive - bacon can be sacrilegious for Muslims. Daughters of Zion are the only ones who can make a difference there around Jerusalem so I address them. It may not make sense to you but it may work regardless of whether it is absurd or not.

What are you going to do about wealth inequality? There used to be land inequality between the Original Americans and the whites. Inheritance law took care of that distribution. As charity begins at home, will any of Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, Ben Carson, Carly Fiorina, etc. propose wealth inheritance reform for the U.S.? I await their response to this head-on challenge.

Why does everyone seem to be focusing on income but not wealth? Wrong target!

[-] 4 points by lugano (1221) 6 years ago

What do you mean by "Daughters of Zion" & did u see/get/read my previous reply?

Also perhaps consider: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article42777.htm

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 6 years ago

Daughters of Zion include Jerusalem so Israel belongs. So do other entities around there. Support for Israel exists in many different forms some of which your article had referred to.

You should know that the Camp David Accords struck between Israel and Egypt pretty much committed the U.S. to substantial military aids to both countries forever. It is cheaper to bribe than to clean up the mess afterwards. Anyone who has dealt with recalcitrant babies knows that.

[-] 3 points by lugano (1221) 6 years ago

You should know that Egypt is a US Client State & it's Top Military Brass, is essentially a long term CIA asset! Re. Israel, well .. ''Tail Wags Dog''?! + http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanley-kutler/israel-can-do-no-wrong-je_b_4521643.html & http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=oded_yinon Finally, I'm also obliged to recommend ... http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20831.htm

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 6 years ago

I read your Oxfam link but my browser crashed when I tried to reply to you. Anyway, wealth inequality is our major problem because it is garbling our political discourse and preventing catharsis for our political system's constipation. I think we are so stuffed up for so long that we are becoming brown and red in the face. This is unnatural!

[-] 3 points by lugano (1221) 6 years ago

Re. US Wealth Inequality, consider: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM

There ain't no hint of ''Trickle Down'' any more - it's straight out ''Hoover Up Crapitalism''!

[-] 2 points by grapes (5232) 6 years ago

I don't think that there was even any "Trickle Down" since 1973 Yom Kippur War. Ever since the eelites got the socially acceptable mandate of counterfeiting money to ease fiscal insanities, the U.S. has been sucking it back up. Well, decades later, our political system has extracted so much "moisture" that it has become severely constipated.

[-] 3 points by lugano (1221) 6 years ago

Re. ''Trickle Down'' & Yom Kippur - I'm not quite sure what the correlation is but I agree with your time frame. 40+ years of Neoliberal Hoover Up Crapitalism is rooted in the precepts and plans in The Lewis Powell Memo, which goes to The Root of The Corporate Take Over of the U$A. Thus fyi - please try to consider: http://reclaimdemocracy.org/powell_memo_lewis/ & - Resist Oligarchy and Corporatocracy!

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 6 years ago

The U.S. nearly got into a global thermonuclear war in the 1973 Arab/Israeli conflict of the Yom Kippur War. It became better to pay up to get Israel as bogeyman to Arab states than to get into total annihilation. Selling out our national interest was the standing order du jour. Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, oil, oil, oil, counterbalance of power, war, war, war, do you get it yet? Arab oil embargo caused crude oil prices to shoot way up. Massive inflation ensued. Then massive recession and unemployment followed. Print, print, print.

By the time in 1979, when Iran became ruled by religious fanatics, the eelites fell in love with the idea to print our way out of debts. Massive inflation, recession, and unemployment ensued. Print, print, print till the dollars that workers received as wages became nearly worthless. Now the orthodoxy is that persistent inflation is best for the economy. Fools never learn but they are very ingenious in exploring every possibility.

[-] 4 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

Crude Oil Prices were lower than that for an equivalent volume of Coca-Cola & we're back there right now too, so: a) What's your point? ; b) What is it that you think you know about Iran? & c), As High Finance Crapitalism is now a totally busted flush - what do you think our options are going forward?

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] 2 points by grapes (5232) 6 years ago

a) My point is that the best time to rein in inflation for good is when it is subdued as right now. When it is roaring and charging, most people will be preoccupied with earning enough money to stay ahead of it. There is the annual running of the bulls in Spain. Being number one, the U.S. stages the perennial running of the fools before inflation.

Crude prices will rebound as petroleum is a non-renewable resource. Disinvestment due to low prices and resource exhaustion (fracking can slow this down but cannot stop this, nor will any other tricks) will pump up crude prices.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 6 years ago

b) Iran has the technological capability to create nuclear weapons and mount them on long-range missiles. When combined with its inferiority complex coupled with its misplaced ancient pride and religious fanaticism, the world will see thermonuclear war eventually. There is some advantage to taking care of it earlier than later but my interest lies in joining the netherworld before then so peace in my time makes much sense.

Iran had great difficulty fighting Iraq for years. The U.S. defeated Iraq in two wars in astonishingly short time. Iraq was absolutely outclassed. If transitive property still holds somewhat in the future, the descendants of the U.S. will probably be able to vanquish Iran when the hour of destiny arrives. I am not leaving an insolvable problem to our descendants.

Iran is a very backward place as well as a very modern place depending on where. It had Cyrus the Great's religious tolerance which went through to the ancient Romans as well as to the U.S. Constitution's Bill of Rights so it had a principle which we revere but how much of that remains with the Islamic domination of Iran is now in question. Iran has a glorious culture from ancient times but I measure progress in creature comforts of the inhabitants, such as clean water, electricity, sanitation, etc. which Iran is still lacking for some of its people. Caspian Sea's natural gas deposits can provide rural electricity. After the 3/11/2011 nuclear meltdowns in Fukushima, Japan, the very smart Iranians should know that nuclear power does not fit well with any earthquake-prone country which Iran is no doubt one. For this very reason, I doubted very much Iran's claim that the tens of thousands of centrifuges were used for generating radionuclides to treat cancers. Iran had no qualms about losing human lives. Lives are cheap in Iran.

Iran's human rights' records leave much to be desired such as freedom of speech, journalism, criticisms, satires (due to a regime [or perhaps its frozen-in-time religion] with no sense of humor [young women love humor, don't they? ;) ]), women's rights, stonings, etc. Iran, while less barbaric when compared with some other Islamic countries has definitely backslid with the Islamic seizure of the political power. Cyrus the Great would not approve that!

[-] 4 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

Re. Iran, I'll be your huckleberry but some hard facts may bring some 'Light' to matters, rather than the unpleasant 'Heat' being generated by the ''Clash of Civilisations'' prejudice, fear and loathing in the USA:

a) Iran has The Worlds 2nd Largest Known Gas Reserves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_reserves_in_Iran ;

b) Iran has The World's 3rd Largest Known 'Total Aggregate' and the 2nd Largest 'Liquid' - Oil Reserves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Iran ;

c) Iran is now one of the most important mineral producers in the world. There are 68 different types of minerals in Iran. The most important mines in Iran include: zinc; copper; iron; lithium & uranium. Other mines include: coal; chemical minerals; salt; sand and gravel .. http://leaksource.info/2013/04/15/iran-owns-7-of-worlds-mineral-reserves/ ;

d) Further consider and cogitate upon the fact that in Feb. 2008, Iran opened a Hydro-Carbon Bourse at The Kish Mercantile Exchange (see - http://www.gold-eagle.com/article/proposed-iranian-oil-bourse and also http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28646.htm ) - trading in a wide basket of currencies, including Euros, Roubles, Yuan and Iranian Rial ... BUT NOT in U$ Dollar$ and thereby challenging both Reserve Currency, Dollar"HegeMoney"as well as the monopoly of the existing Oil & Petroleum Bourses.

e) The Iranian Central Bank Is State Controlled & Entirely Government Owned ie. NOT Privately Owned! { http://blogs.wsj.com/corruption-currents/2011/12/15/senate-passes-sanctions-on-irans-central-bank/?mod=google_news_blog & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Bank_of_the_Islamic_Republic_of_Iran } ;

f) The very same Neocon, Neo-Colonial, Paleo-Imperial, WARMONGERS ... who beat the drums for The Unconscionable, Illegal & Immoral WAR on Iraq [where The Only "WMD" = Words of Mass Deception!!!] are still beating the Drums of War for Iran. Please Try To Research Project for a New American Century: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNAC and fyi..

Do points 'a-e' abv., actually constitute the real casus belli for Neocon, Neoliberal US-MIC Imperialists?! And/or .. is it because this: http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=oded_yinon .. or even this: https://web.archive.org/web/20140125123844/http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm .. just can not work with a strong Iran still extant? Btw, who seeded Iran's early nuclear development during The Shah? This will be a good clue http://www.timesofisrael.com/a-generation-ago-israelis-found-paradise-in-iran/ for us maybe.

No country on earth is as surrounded by declared enemies as Iran - with the US/NATO & other allies all around yet you'd malign it .. with NO mention of the CIA's "Operation Ajax" against Mossadegh in 1953, a coup run right out of the US Embassy by Kermit Roosevelt,Jr.? That was what Revolutionary Students wanted to prevent a repeat of, with their ill-judged take over of The US Embassy in Tehran.Now consider has Iran interfered with the USA to any such degree? STOP - the US-MIC propaganda & work for peace, otherwise - you're in Bendyermind Nutjobyahoo's world of making Iran into an irrational existential threat! Now ask; just what are the implications of: RWNJ-Likud & RWNJ-KSA & US-MIC, being allied together?

fiat lux et fiat pax ...

[-] -1 points by grapes (5232) 6 years ago

c) Going forward, we focus on H.E.L.P. - Health, Education, Livelihood, and Passion in reverse order starting with Passion: Get the people who are of marriageable age coupled together to get some bonding, social mooring and stability, or at least some coital bliss. Support the passions that people engage in, such as various kinds of hobbies and examine whether we can help turn them into livelihoods.

For Livelihood, we match employers with passion/talent pools and start apprenticeships, mentorships, internships, traineeships, sponsorships, etc. with some governmental support for a basic income and some exemptions from minimum wage requirements on employers to be phased out as the skill and market-valuable level of the apprentice increases. Establish incubator centers like a dormitory surrounding a cafeteria, library, lounge/workplace areas, with prototyping workshop staffed by experienced personnel. We can emulate if weather permits or expand on an indoor greenhouse what Palo Alto has got - a good roadside cafe scene with close-by access to college/university/companies.

For Education, restructure S.T.E.M. programs to the order: Math starting Geometric Algebra early (absorbing trigonometry, geometry, and algebra bases), Computing Literacy/Coding, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Technology, Business Math including Probability and Statistics (no more pushing the most capable students to learn infinitesimal calculus), and Engineering with the last three areas pulled by industry sponsorships and teaching assistance. Compress curricula by reducing historical development of subjects to favor operational sequencing of subjects but leave pointers to chronological and historical contexts around as extra credits (perhaps as multidisciplinary study projects in language arts and history) . Every high school student should be conversant in quantum theory by the end of the sophomore year.

For Health, push for 100% immunization through school-based vaccinations. Build affordable housings with sanitation, clean water, and electricity, close to grocery markets, schools, libraries, and public transportations, preferably close to hospitals and workplaces. Break up the ghettos by teaching English, the lingua franca that opens up worldwide opportunities, to every child, and encourage everyone to be at least bilingual. We need the cultural understandings only obtainable through fluency and literacy of another culture, not to mention how we were caught with our pants down on Arabic language fluency so we were temporarily blindsided with no comprehension whatsoever after 9/11/2001 attack. Languages can be vital for national defence.

Conduct community surveys to determine propriety, efficacy, efficiency, priority of programs and hold town-hall discussions every three months to create quarterly agendas and longer term goals.

The reversed H.E.L.P. order is important because Libyans got H.E. well but L.P. not so well and that led to a disruptive revolution. Underutilized people can cause social disruptions.

Finland can perhaps link up more trade with its neighbors such as with Sweden.

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

Yet another front in the 21st century resource wars is Africa & Libya was just 'Chapter 1' - as AFRICOM ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7026197.stm ) is now in full swing. Therefore .. with reference to Libya and for some information from beyond the MSM veil - I will re-post some points and observations ..

a) Libya's offers to other African countries to trade, exchange and barter ... Libya's abundant gas and oil ( http://www.libyaoilgas.com/ ) in exchange for agricultural produce, raw materials & especially - Colonel Gaddaffi's rather radical thoughts, ideas and proposals for: A New Pan-Continental Africa GOLD Backed Currency ...... http://havacuppahemlock1.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/libyas-gold-dinar-oil-for-gold-killed.html and .... http://www.thenewamerican.com/economy/markets/item/4630-gadhafi-s-gold-money-plan-would-have-devastated-dollar .. which would thus have undermined existing notions of the "petro-dollar" and the demand for the U$D as The Global Reserve Currency ... Is Absolutely Critical To NATO's War On Libya!

b) An Ever Greedy Corporate eYe - has been cast upon Libya's unlikely but Very Real Water Resources (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Manmade_River ) ... which will now be available for future export to Malta, Sicily, Egypt & Tunisia etc. Etc. ETC. {http://www.waterpolitics.com/2011/07/31/water-big.... }.

c) Libya had almost no national debt & is NOT in hock to the Unholy & Usurious WTO/IMF/World Bank - Nexus. Libya's 2010 Debt - was less than $6.4 Billion and only 9% of GDP at a per capita debt of only $972/person. (See line 109, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt ).

d) With having a State Owned CentralBank, Libya wasn't a member of that Elitist Club of Private Central Bankers, the Bank of International Settlements. One of the first acts of "The Rebels" was to establish A New Private Central Bank of Libya ( http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27881.htm ) and this point can't be emphasised enough! You also need to ask: "What Happened To Libya's Gold Reserves"!!

e) Libya ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya ) has a very small population relative to its size (~6.5M) and thus, it seems ripe for de facto take over in the always ever avaricious eyes of The Empire & the Global Oligarchs, who with the help, blood & lives of "The Rebels", will now seek to turn Libya into yet another Imperial Fiefdom - as opposed to a truly free and democratic country.

f) The real modus operandi of Wars for Resources & Imperial Hegemony, like Libya, is now increasingly clear for us all to see. Today's Libyans, should be extremely wary about "throwing the baby out with the bath water" and of "jumping out of the frying pan & into the fire" .. as becoming indentured Wage-Slaves to the Oily-garchs & being in perpetual Debt-Bondage to The Infernal Banksters - will NEVER constitute Liberty, Prosperity or Dignity for Libyans .. OR Anyone Else Really!!! Furthermore - also try to consider:

Finally, if all the above is too much, consider: http://atimes.com/2015/11/paris-made-in-libya-not-syria/ ..

A detailed & intricate article from which I excerpt the following 3 paras: ''To sum up: the alleged and now reportedly deceased architect of the Paris attacks, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, did not fight “for IS.” He fought “with” Katibat al-Battar al-Libi - a Libyan outfit, whose presence in Syria predates that of ISIS. Even after Katibat al-Battar al-Libi decided to pledge allegiance to ISIS, it still retained an independent identity.And it would appear unlikely that Abaaoud, as a European of Moroccan descent, would be a central figure in the brigade, whose personnel, funding and mission seem to have largely emanated from Libya.

''Despite his seemingly junior status in an autonomous militia, it is possible that Abaaoud was recruited by al-Baghdadi to commit the Paris outrage but the foreign fighters flock to Syria not only to accumulate general jihadi merit, but also to acquire skills they could apply in their own struggles. And Abaaoud may have gone to the Syrian war zone to hook up with an extremely capable Libyan outfit & then acquire the experience and connections to fulfill his own ambitions for mayhem in Europe and so not necessarily to support the global or even local objectives of the IS Caliphate. And so - it is by no means axiomatic that Abaaoud returned to Europe with the mission to execute a high-level ISIS strategy.

''Instead, Abdelhamid Abaaoud might have been an angry guy with the skills, resources, and inclination to commit mass murder on his own kick. The police were already after him Big Time - after the Verviers raid in January (we are now told that Abaaoud was - “on” or a “candidate for”, his own spot on the drone assassination assignment list, but I wonder if this is just post-hoc ass-covering). So, maybe he and his friends decided to pull the pin and go out in a big way. I doubt we will ever get the full story. But, “Paris: Made in Libya” is an honest hook.'' Hmmmmmmmm!!

e tenebris, lux?!

I can agree with the gist of most of your points in your reply above but I can also better summarise my positions with reference to lessons learnable from .. Scandinavian Socialism / Democratic-Socialism / Social-Democracy .. by appending the following links for cool, calm, collected & careful consideration:

respice; adspice; prospice ...

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

''The ‘Anti-Imperialist’ Who Got Libya Wrong Serves Up The Same Failed Analysis on Syria'':

fallaces sunt rerum species ...

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

''Noam Chomsky has spoken for years and at length about the means by which entrenched power narrows the debate. "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient," he said, "is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum." Bernie Sanders scares the hell out of the Establishment, and the manner in which its media mouthpieces cover this sham of an election in order to shove him and his supporters into the woods is as obvious as it is filthy. Sanders is being shamed for what went down in Las Vegas, but Vegas will tell you all you need to know about how easy it is to run the table when the fix is in.'' from the end of ...

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

''Let's Drop Acid and Have a Presidential Race'', by William Rivers Pitt:

verum ex absurdo?

[-] 2 points by grapes (5232) 6 years ago

Who is having this dispute with you, stinkles you so fast? I seldom stinkle people.

[-] 4 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

Comments removed by parDisan so called 'mods', has always been an occupational hazard here on this forum in the past .. but especially with Bernie Sanders in the mix - we will soldier on for The99%! + fyi ..

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

''This “Rate Hike” Is A Fraud'', by Dr. Paul Craig Roberts:

Which starts with: ''The Federal Reserve raised the interbank borrowing rate today by one quarter of one percent or 25 basis points. Readers are asking, “what does that mean?”

''It means that the Fed has had time to figure out that the effect of the small “rate hike” would essentially be zero. In other words, the small increase in the target rate from a range of 0 to 0.25% to 0.25 to 0.50% is insufficient to set off problems in the interest-rate derivatives market or to send stock and bond prices into decline.''

And ends with: ''Look at it this way. The banking system as a whole does not need to borrow as it is sitting on $2.42 trillion in excess reserves. The negative impact of the “rate hike” affects only smaller banks that are lending to businesses and consumers. If these banks find themselves fully loaned up and in need of overnight reserves to meet their reserve requirements, they will need to borrow from a bank with excess reserves. Thus, the rate hike has the effect of making smaller banks pay higher interest expense to the mega-banks favored by the Federal Reserve.

''A different way of putting it is that the “rate hike” favors banks sitting on excess reserves over banks who are lending to businesses and consumers in their community.

''In other words, the rate hike just facilitates more looting by the One Percent.''

radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ...

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 6 years ago

The fed is running scared so it had to raise rates to preserve its credibility and prepare for the potential coming recession for which rate cuts will be needed.

Negative interest rates seem to have a very perverse effect in Switzerland, raising mortgage rates when the lenders can even shave some money from the depositors. Perhaps the fed does not want to go there. They can do a bail-in when the credit collapse comes. The Europeans used bail-ins before so it is charted territory deemed safe.

[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

Is there .. ''A New Opportunity in 2016''?!

''The fed'' is a FRAUD and there's sweet fk-all Federal about it as it's a conglomeration of local, national & international Banking Interests! They are engaged in a charade, to keep people in The U$A enslaved, debt peons!! However, I do agree with your ''bail-ins'' point tho', ergo see ...

with ..... ''The Dodd Frank Act and the Bankruptcy Reform Act both need a radical overhaul, and the Glass-Steagall Act (which put a fire wall between risky investments and bank deposits) needs to be reinstated.

''Meanwhile, local legislators would do well to set up some publicly-owned banks on the model of the state-owned Bank of North Dakota – banks that do NOT gamble in derivatives and are safe places to store our public and private funds.'' Also fyi ...

e tenebris, lux?

[-] 0 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

Bernie on ''Wall Street Reform and Financial Policy'':

From 5th Jan.'16 - when Wall Street shat its fancy pants!

fiat justitia ruat caelum ...

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

''Democratic Socialism in the United States'', by Sen. Bernie Sanders ... a fantastic Pro-99% speech - with Q&A @ Georgetown University:

''Socialism is love, it's fair, it's humane and it's liberating. Bernie's version of it isn't even all that radical. It's based on the very successful democratic socialist countries such as Canada, Denmark and Sweden that blend capitalism with socialist checks and balances. Why people are afraid of a system that gives humans protection from adversity is beyond me. I can only think that fear is based on a lack of knowledge and understanding.'' [Total repeat of bw from ... http://occupywallst.org/forum/left-forum-2015-part-1/#comment-1068815 ] but also try to reflect upon ..

ad iudicium ...

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago





[-] 4 points by lugano (1221) 6 years ago

Consider : ''The Secret Bank Bailouts'' .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=15&v=xu5sTyAXyAo

Maybe the best doc. about what happened to Greece but made in 2013 barely mentioning Greece!

[-] 4 points by lugano (1221) 7 years ago

Fyi: http://thischangeseverything.org/ & where you @ 'th'? Solidarity!

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

When Democracy is co-opted .. it is corrupted & then only demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy can prevail.

multum in parvo ...

[-] 3 points by lugano (1221) 7 years ago

''The Crucifixion of Greece is Killing the European Project'' by Seumas Milne:


''You couldn’t have had a clearer demonstration of what democracy now counts for in Europe than this week’s immolation of Greece. In January, after five years of grinding austerity imposed by the troika of creditors had shrunk its economy by a quarter and pushed millions into poverty, Greeks rebelled and elected an anti-austerity government.

''Following months of fruitless negotiations, the country voted last week to reject the latest cuts, tax rises and privatisations demanded to deal with the disastrous impact of the first phase of austerity. The response of the eurozone’s masters was immediately to ratchet up the pain still further. For the “breach of trust” of daring to put the terms to its people, Athens was to be punished.

''So on Monday – threatened with expulsion from the eurozone and economic collapse courtesy of the European Central Bank’s cash blockade – the Greek prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, bent the knee.''

We Are Greek Now!

[-] 5 points by windyacres (1197) 7 years ago

Finance is War! Force people to submit or suffer horribly.

[-] 4 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

Ever heard of ''The US School That Trains Dictators and Death Squads''? by Abby Martin (Video):

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 4 points by lugano (1221) 7 years ago

''All Hail Our Banking Overlords!'' ... by Chris Martenson: http://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/93588/all-hail-our-banking-overlords - "We work for them, plain & simple. You really have to be paying attention to see what’s truly going on these days. The keepers of the system, that is the banking elites, now openly control everything — though you’d never know that by listening to the media." Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!

[-] 2 points by lugano (1221) 7 years ago

''Dirty Energy vs. Clean Power: The Past Battles the Future at Seneca Lake'' ... http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/31791-dirty-energy-vs-clean-power-the-past-battles-the-future-at-seneca-lake

[-] 2 points by lugano (1221) 7 years ago

Solidarity to Greece's 99% & Syriza + by Yannis Varafoukis - ''Our NO is a Majestic, big YES to a Democratic, Rational Europe!'' http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article42308.htm 'mazi oxi'!

[-] 4 points by lugano (1221) 7 years ago

Re. Greece - absolutely essential viewing: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article42394.htm

[-] 2 points by lugano (1221) 7 years ago

''Ladydrawers: Cultivating Policy'': http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/31253-ladydrawers-cultivating-policy - by Anne Elizabeth Moore and Melissa Mendes and I thought this may be of interest to you.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23620) 7 years ago

So great that you attended and thank you so much for sharing, trashy, and for all that you do. You are a warrior for the 99%! Solidarity!

[-] 2 points by mdonelly (324) from Mineola, NY 7 years ago

You're Welcome bw. It was so nice to be amongst so many good people, like you and most people here, at the Left Forum, and the Unitarian church ....where Chris Hedges and Kshama Swant spoke at both places.The LF, as I told another poster was mobbed on Saturday in particular. And it was especially neat to meet trashharry, and for her take a picture of Ms Sawant and me together. Err... I did ask her not to mention any quirks I had on the forum, if she noticed any. lol ...It was a weekend that neither of us will ever forget, I'm sure

[-] 2 points by lugano (1221) 7 years ago

Consider ... ''Who Is On The Left?'' by Margaret Kimberley:


Short item speaks for itself, as do you with your excellent report back from ''The Left Forum'' NYC, 29th-31st May. Thanks + cross link to your earlier P1/2 http://occupywallst.org/forum/left-forum-2015-part-1/

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

''$52.6 billion - The Black Budget'' -

fiat lux ...

[-] 3 points by lugano (1221) 7 years ago

''From Marx to Goldman Sachs: The Fictions of Fictitious Capital'' by Prof. Michael Hudson - http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article26131.htm - from which:

''Finance capitalism has become a network of exponentially growing interest-bearing claims wrapped around the production economy. The internal contradiction is that its dynamic leads to debt deflation and asset stripping. The economy is turned into a Ponzi scheme by recycling debt service to make new loans to inflate property prices by enough to justify yet new lending. But a limit is imposed by the shrinking ability of surplus income to cover the debt service falling due. That is what the mathematics of compound interest are all about.

''Little is left for the tax collector after charging off interest, depreciation and amortization, managerial salaries and stock options. The resulting tax squeeze impoverishes economies, obliging governments either to cut back their spending or shift the fiscal burden onto labor and non-financialized industry. The resulting financial dynamic is more like what Marx described as usury-capital than industrial banking.''

[-] 3 points by lugano (1221) 7 years ago

''Flipping the Script: Rethinking Working-Class Resistance'' - http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/31238-flipping-the-script-rethinking-working-class-resistance An introspective, subtle and very insightful article.

[-] 2 points by windyacres (1197) 7 years ago

"Utilize non-democratic methods in pursuit of democracy", The answer is clearly yes to me, what do you guys think?

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

US Democracy has been rendered demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy and is almost moot now by, inter alia:

A wee disclaimer here - Susan George is a personal heroine of mine ... since I read her books about 3rd World Development & Debt in my early twenties. I think that she is fantastic. Solidarity to you and yours windy/aoa for Hanukka, Yule, Solstice, Xmas & New Year & please note that my original Twitter a/c has been hacked but here's my current incarnation: https://twitter.com/shadz6ty6 & Never Give Up The 99%!

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 3 points by windyacres (1197) 6 years ago

Appreciate the links, your new twitter incarnation, and you. Solidarity to you and keep in touch, I'll be around.

[-] 4 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

''The Occupy movement peaked with encampments in public spaces .. in more than 900 cities and 82 countries. But by early 2012, the encampments were mostly gone, in part due to mayors in places like New York City and Boston ordering brutal police crackdowns. Now .. years later, some look back at the movement as a failure - as it did not result in any immediate economic reforms, and The Movement has largely fizzled out. But one of the goals of Occupy, which did not make specific demands or specifically endorse any candidates or legislation - was to help the public see the world through The Lens Of Class: the "99%" (the working and middle classes) vs. the "1%" (the ownership class). In this sense, Occupy had a great deal of success.

''Anecdotally, there are many examples of this. Eg. During the 2012 GOP presidential primary season, Republicans seemed to genuinely see Occupy's message as a threat. "I'm so scared of this anti-Wall Street effort. I'm frightened to death," said Frank Luntz,a famous Republican strategist who focuses on political messaging. "They're having an impact on what the American people think of capitalism."Luntz advised the GOP candidates not to use the word "capitalism" because members of the public"think capitalism is immoral."! Hmmmmmmmmm!! Personally, I think that OWS Movement is yet "to peak"!!!

The above is excerpted (with my added emphasis) from this great article - by Michael Corcoran:

Solidarity and the Seasons' Best Wishes to you and yours windy & don't give up on this forum!

per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 7 points by Viking (417) 6 years ago

EDIT (the bottom link added). Occupy Wall Street may have peaked, but not before it gave a huge boost to activism and people knowing that they can make a difference for the better. Yesterday while in NY for other reasons, and only learning about this protest hours before, I came across this very dynamic rally outside the Trump International Hotel at Columbus Circle. So many good people, and good conversations including ones I had with a couple of the people in IVAW (Iraq Veterans Against War). I admire that group so much.

"Dump Trump!": Hundreds rally outside Trump Tower in NYC to slam his hate speech and welcome refugees


I did hear that they were going to take it to Trump again today outside the Plaza Hotel where he is giving a campaign speech. Kudos to those kindred spirits!

EDIT: They followed through the next day with their intentions of greeting Trump again at the Plaza Hotel. I missed this one though.

Donald Trump's $1,000-a-plate luncheon at New York City's ritzy Plaza Hotel is crashed by anti-racism protesters who are forcibly ejected from event


[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

IF Dumbo Trump becomes PotUS there'll be ''A Hell Toupee'' but the USA can ''Over Comb'' someday!!! I watched some of the Anti-Trump protests on 'LiveStream' & it looks like, that the vacuous fool can't walk the streets of NY or have any event without hundreds of peeps protesting his RWNJ-ass!! Good! Also fyi:

''I have made myself very rich,’ Trump says (over and over again). ‘I would make this country very rich.’ That’s why he should be president. He insists that he’s the ‘most successful man ever to run’, never mind the drafters of the constitution or the supreme commander of the allied forces. Bloomberg puts Trump’s current net worth at $2.9 billion, Forbes at $4.1 billion. The National Journal has worked out that if Trump had just put his father’s money in a mutual fund that tracked the S&P 500 and spent his career finger-painting, he’d have $8 billion.

''It’s not just vanity that requires Trump to claim that all his deals make gazillions: his current business requires it. Even when his projects fail – his golf course in Aberdeenshire, to take one example, has lost £3.5 million over the last two years – he makes money through letting other people put his name on their projects: no risk, little work, just a licensing fee upfront or a share of the profits. He doesn’t actually own the Trump Taj Mahal or Trump Palace or Trump Place or Trump Plaza or Trump Park Avenue or Trump Soho, or the many Trump buildings throughout South America, Turkey, South Korea and the Caucasus.

''Developers buy the use of his name because enough customers believe in it: ‘It’s not even a question of ego. It’s just that my name makes everything more successful,’ he says. And so there have been Trump board games and phone contracts, credit cards, mattresses, deodorants, chocolate bars that look like gold bars, cologne sold only by Macy’s (‘Success by Trump’). He made $200 million over 14 seasons by being the star of The Apprentice, playing ‘Donald Trump’, the richest, tycooniest man in the world.

''Between 2005 and 2010, Trump made more than $40 million from thousands of students who enrolled in entrepreneurship classes at ‘Trump University’. Some say it was a scam, and many of them have joined class action lawsuits to get their money back (one says that ‘for my $35,000+ all I got was books that I could have gotten from the library’). The attorney general of New York has filed a lawsuit against Trump for fraud.''

I could excerpt so much more from that excellent book review by Deborah Friedell but I'll encourage you & others to read it for yourselves instead. Seasons best wishes & Occupy Solidarity to you and yours :)

Btw, it is not accidental that we learn that Trump's proposal to bar Muslims from entering the US "rests on research from the Center for Security Policy - a neo-con think-tank run by Frank Gaffney, who has a long history of pro-Israel advocacy & has been called: ''one of US' most notorious Islamophobes'' by the Southern Poverty Law Center"! Ergo see - http://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/proposal-debunked-thinktank

e tenebris, lux!

[-] 3 points by Viking (417) 6 years ago

From my point of view, Trump has been an obnoxious ass for a long time. It wasn't until he ran for the Republican nomination for President, though did I realize that he was a bigot and a demagogue as well.

Trump lost a lot of other people's money, aside from his licensing agreements where he had little or nothing at stake (as you pointed out). There were many workers including sub-contractors who had to settle for pennies on the dollar, but he lost some of his own assets too including having to sell his 282 yacht and the Trump Shuttle, his airline that flew between Boston, NY and Washington. And his racist mouth is costing him current and future business partners as well, some of whom have already started bailing. Many people view him as being toxic, yoo hoo! That's another link though.

Everything you want to know about Donald Trump's bankruptcies


I also see Trump and his ilk.... at this time making a last gasp effort at trying to codify a corrupt system in opposition to good people who want a better World.... and a changing demographics where old bellicose white dudes will be becoming less relevant, and will have to take a back seat. They are encountering a lot of resistance from people who want justice. We on this forum are just a few of the many kindred spirits who make up that resistance.

[-] 4 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

''TV is the ultimate leveling phenomenon. It makes everyone, rich and poor, equally incapable of dealing with reality.

''That is why it is so ironic that some people think the solution to the Trump problem is - turning him off. What got us into this mess was the impulse to change the channel the moment we feel uncomfortable.

''Even if we take the man off the air, the problem he represents is still going to be there, just like poverty, corruption, mass incarceration, pollution and all of the other things we keep off the airwaves.'' -- from ...

From your great link:''Donald Trump brags about how well his businesses have fared in bankruptcy. And in fact, no major U.S. company has filed for Chapter 11 more than Trump's casino empire in the last 30 years. "I have used the laws of this country ... the [bankruptcy] chapter laws ... to do a great job for my company, for myself, for my employees, for my family," he said during the first Republican presidential debate on August 6.''

D-Trump is all talk & no trousers! He is a fraud & a narcissist!! I hope that it's Bernie v Trump next Nov!!!

spero meliora ...

[-] 4 points by Viking (417) 6 years ago

And you can add to that: Trump is a demagogue and a f..king liar! Like I have implied, he is just saying what many of his neocon buddies mask.

No, Donald Trump Real Muslims Haven't Applauded Your Fascist Plan To Ban Them


In the Dark Ages there was an omnipresent subjugation of the people, and science, culture, intellectualism and rational thought were discouraged.. to say the least. What is going on today seems reminiscent of that to me.

[-] 4 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

Is Trump a ''radicalized lone-wolf''?! Especially in light of the fact that .. ''Radicalized white resentment has been the biggest terror threat in the U.S. in the last decade, emboldened and intensifying through the state’s failure to contain it, while the underlying backlash politics fueling this violence has been mainstreamed – from the Tea Party to the cartoonish candidacy of Donald Trump.

''The outward violence of the disintegrating American empire is presently being matched by the internal political violence launched by a variety of militias, white nationalists, and an assortment of lone wolves wound up to the breaking point by Fox News, Republican politicians, and the demonstration effect of a litany of heavily-armed, self-conceived white victims putting rhetoric in to action and ‘taking back their country.

''The attack on Planned Parenthood in Colorado, like the attack on the Black Lives Matter movement (in Minneapolis) earlier that week, along with the murder of nine people in the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, South Carolina this past June, and the spate of arsons from North Carolina, Georgia, South Carolina, Florida, Ohio, and Tennessee to Saint Louis in recent months, was an act of terror – a violent act against a civilian target with the intent of political intimidation and manipulation.'' - From this excellent piece by Mike King ...

''Why does a terroristic act by a group of people who are (only nominally) Muslim produce an almost automatic, reflexive moral complicity throughout an entire generalized subaltern group while domestic white terrorism in the U.S. is neither considered terror, nor even placed within any broader political context of systemic racial inequality, material deprivation and cultural dehumanization? Why and how can these attacks continue to be seen as isolated, decontextualized tragedies rather than as public acts of war against Black people or against the fundamental human rights of women to have access to reproductive healthcare?

''The level of white resentment and backlash finds no clearer political manifestation, aside from the recent spate of anti-black violence, than in the caricatured vulgar bigotry of Donald Trump. From immigrant bashing to promoting false statistics about black-on-white crime, Trump has been brazenly and successfully riding this wave of white resentment and backlash politics towards the Republican nomination. In spite of his obvious limitations as a viable presidential candidate – epitomized by his reality-show, bully persona and vacant, eye-brow-shrugging braggadocio – Trump is the historical walking/talking embodiment of modern white resentment. All the better if his claims about immigrant rapists or Black crime are clearly fabricated, so long as he does not waver from that bad faith bigotry in his clear and simple pursuit of reinforcing the existing racial order.

''The millions of white Americans who were so quick to “Stand with France” and plaster a French flag over their Facebook profile, and the millions of Christian Conservatives that support an agenda that seeks to turn the U.S. into a reactionary theocratic state, need to be forced to recognize their own persistent failure to condemn the vigilante and state violence that systematically targets Black Americans and women for what it is – material support for terrorism.''

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 4 points by Viking (417) 6 years ago

Unaware, ignorant racist people, or people who benefit from the corrupt status quo are the ones who support these neocon politicians. Good insights, Thanks.

I never thought that I would ever like anything that this former National Security Adviser had to say, but I especially love the first couple of minutes of his epiphany.

Excerpts from the below link:

Brzezinski thinks that, "...in recent decades, world-wide social change has experienced unprecedented historical acceleration..."

And that there has been a "...universal awakening of mass political consciousness..."

He thinks that the "..wide-spread rise in world wide-populist activism..," is making it very difficult to carry out their [nefarious, colonial-like] agenda.

Zbigniew Brzezinski Still Admits The Global Political Awakening Proving Very Difficult For The Elite... [yoo hoo!]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHknL5z8f6k - a 6 min, 22 sec video

[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

I'm not sure about Zbigniev Brzezinski because he is an old con, neo-imperialist - who is totemised by ''The Western Foreign Policy Establishment'' but I do get (and have heard before) some of the (actually obvious) things that he later realises to be true .. even IF it is waaay after many of us on The Left have said so for a long time before he comes to his senses! Blowjob-Bill & Obomber just love this guy too!!

I don't like him or trust him but I get what you say though & when a very senior and long term advisor to Bankers, War-Hawks, Corporations & Imperialists, starts spouting self-evident, humanitarian(ish) truths, we should be ever surer of our ground/analysis. Here's a pdf-file of the entirety of his most famous book:

From which ... ''In fact, the CIA had been backing Afghan Islamists well before the Russians invaded the country in December 1979. Zbigniew Brzezinski, Jimmy Carter’s national-security adviser, later boasted to Le Nouvel Observateur that the president had “signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul” six months prior to the invasion. “And that very day,” Zbig. Brzezinski recalled, “I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was now going to induce a Soviet military intervention.” - The war that inevitably followed killed a million Afghans.''

e tenebris ...

[-] 3 points by Viking (417) 6 years ago

I am somewhat aware of Brzezinski's corrupt establishment ties, and I have no desire to invite him over for tea, or be his buddy... or vote for him for anything! While I am on the subject of voting; My lack of trust of him extends beyond him as I would not vote for anyone for President with a D or R after his name either.

My simple point is: Brzezinski's presentation in 2012 (I believe) in which he made those three points from my previous post, should be very encouraging to all of us. I especially like the one where he said, "... there has been a universal awakening of mass political consciousness...". Maybe his kids sat him down and clued him in.. lol. Anyway, that's not just 'us' that he is referring to, it's good people throughout the World who know that it does not have to be like this..

Good links, Thanks.

[-] 4 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

I agree. No tea for Zbig.! I've got every sympathy re.your feelings on the (s)election of The pResiDent of the U$A!! But what about .. https://secure.berniesanders.com/ though ... given what is now at stake?!!!

All the true ''Duopoly'' arguments - clearly still apply, but Sanders is closer to OWS positions than any possible POTUS candidate that I've ever heard from or of. Right now - it is all about April & him beating Hitlary Rancid Clinton ... because she is a: Neoliberal/Neocon; ''Goldwater Girl'' Republicrat; Corporate Bankers' stooge, whose 0.01% enabling positions, should always be absolutely opposed and resisted.

However - Bernie Sanders versus ANY of those idiotic Republicunt clowns from the other night, who all really want to ''Make America Hate Again'' .. is a Very Interesting state of affairs, from a US 99% p-o-v, imo! Just so long as The DNC & Corporates Asses don't meddle!! Re.Zbig., here's another perspective:

by none other than Michael C.Ruppert, who I was very privileged to hear on the excellent feature length documentary - ''Collapse'' very recently:

I will end by both re-recommending the {final} Harpers' link above and by wishing you and yours, peace and all the very best wishes of the season. Solidarity & fyi ..

fiat lux et fiat pax ...

[-] 3 points by Viking (417) 6 years ago

Another former National Security Adviser who seems to have had a Brzezinski-like epiphany.

The Empire Files: 'This Ship is Sinking' Says Former Bush Official


I'm not religious, but I believe in redemption. People who were a part of this corrupt system, and who now speak out against it... realizing how morally debased it is, have my admiration.

And yes, I would think about having him over for some shepherd's pie, but I would keep an eye on my silverware....:)

[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

@ Viking: Ditto. RIP Mike Ruppert :-( Clearly a person of intellect, integrity & intuition. The USA has lots of people like him (and you and your comrades) BUT 'power' excludes & marginalises them! Eg:

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 2 points by Viking (417) 6 years ago

Thanks for understanding my intransigence on that issue. Neither of us are alone in how we feel, but I suspect that most people who think that we need systemic change side with you.

Re. "Collapse". I appreciate people like Michael C Rupert who give up what could have been a cushy life if they had just 'went along,' and instead trek on the much more difficult path, of following their conscience. I see that quite a bit in young people in particular. As best as I can, I understand the deep, undoubtedly dismal feelings that Mr. Rupert had. I just wish that he could have found a better equilibrium in his life so that it didn't end so tragically.

[-] 2 points by MattHolck0 (3867) 6 years ago

Repugnant Mutt and Dramatic Jeff

ready for the two party interrogation ?

[-] 1 points by MattHolck0 (3867) 6 years ago

TO follow their Conscious

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (23620) 6 years ago

"Donald Trump would be richer if he'd have invested in index funds"



[-] 2 points by Viking (417) 6 years ago

You're right, Trump could have just concentrated on his hair piece.... invested in an index fund in 1988, and he would have been far better off.

Check out the second link on my previous edited comment. That young lady in the picture who is in front of the sign that reads, "TRUMP... Make America Hate Again," is a creative activist, and a friend who is very good at alerting media contacts that give our movement more publicity. Although her dress is... err kinda provocative, she in fact is very dedicated to our struggle, and is serious about it, and conservative in her everyday demeanor. At a previous demonstration, I did offer her an extra long sleeved, black shirt that I had to keep her warmer, but she smiled and declined saying that she would lose the effect. I agreed and smiled too, and we both laughed.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (23620) 6 years ago

"Trump: Make America Hate Again."

Pretty much says it all. It's great that there are so many good people out there working hard to free us from our society's insanity.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 6 years ago

My beloved flock, have no fear! Your fodder is here!

Trump needs to get the Retardican nomination first but if he does, he will surely trigger the national Repukedikan gag reflex. Frankly, I am very impressed by the passion that his rhetorics have already stirred up in even politically apathetic people. There will be higher voter participation and GOOP will be babysat for toilet training instructions on the bleechers. C'est la vie!

[-] 4 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

''Trump Is a Symptom Not the Disease'' http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article43697.htm

It makes for some interesting reading but I kind of agree with you & I too hope that D-Trump gets the Repugnant/GOP PotUS nomination because it will then galvanise every single person of Anti-Fascist conscience to come to vote against him ... HOWEVER this ONLY works IF Bernie Sanders gets the Democrap PotUS shot against him because then Sanders wins BUT IF it is HRC in April .. well good luck with that and Canada, Cuba and all points east - had better start preparing for US socio-political refugees!!! Also fyi - consider http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article43690.htm for the future!

verum ex absurdo ...

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 6 years ago

The [Non-]U.S. [Non-]Federal [No-]Reserve was created when the U.S. federal government traded away its monetary creative power for getting Prohibition of alcoholic drinks passed. Now that Prohibition of alcoholic drinks had long been repealed, Fairness(suspicious racial skintone bias) demands that the U.S. federal government take back its monetary creative power.

Here's an anomaly that needs the Islamic world to reconcile. Why is it that Jesus, whom Muslims revere as Prophet Issa and look forward to returning someday, seemed to be (according to the Bible, at least) a real lover of grapes, vines, wines, and alcoholic drinks but Islam prohibits alcoholic drinks?

It WAS the U.S. Constitution's First Amendment (defending Religious, Speech, Press freedom from the State) that had protected the alcoholic industry from becoming extinct during the Era of Prohibition. Churches supported the alcoholic industry through Jesus's requirement of the drinking of red wine as His blood in churches in remembrance of Him.

I think that Prohibition was creating bad fruits so God eventually willed it away. The First Amendment might have had God's authority imbued in it because it had helped the alcoholic industry withstand the onslaught of the banksters. Even Islam's Paradise promises to stock grapes (albeit white [suspicious skintone bias] ones). My experience with all kinds of grapes was that they all turned into wines or vinegars as if it was God's Will!

Perhaps Islam was editing the history of Jesus with grapes, vines, wines, alcoholic drinks, etc. to create a cultural prohibition to uplift Bedouin lifestyles just as the U.S. had tried and eventually given up.

When Prophet Issa, Jesus, returns, will He be drinking red wine again?

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

I have no idea what your allusion to viticulture has to do with anything here but I will leave you to while away some time with your wee whine about wine, weird/wonderful or otherwise - while u mull over this:

in vino veritas?!

[-] 5 points by windyacres (1197) 6 years ago

In the early days of the forum, I remember a Brit posting a response to me saying, it's up to you Yanks to make sure your leaders with their military and economic power awakens Americans to what's going down.

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

Really?! Well I am denying that it was me, lol!! But mostly because ''your leaders with their military and economic power ..'' are not going to be party to ANY awakening of The Great But Slumbering American People - as they, themselves are the root cause of so much of the sedation and departure from reality!!!

multum in parvo ...

[-] 1 points by lugano (1221) 7 years ago

''From Occupying Banks to City Hall - Meet Barcelona's New Mayor Ada Colau'' .. http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/31209-from-occupying-banks-to-city-hall-meet-barcelona-s-new-mayor-ada-colau (Video) Ada Colou attests to the truth of what you suggest + There are Many Paths to social shifts.

[-] 3 points by windyacres (1197) 7 years ago

Spain impresses me the most in their solidarity and resolve.

[-] 2 points by lugano (1221) 7 years ago

This lady http://kshamasawant.org/ cuts it in the US and Spain's ''Podemos'' shows what can happen and is necessary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podemos_%28Spanish_political_party%29 + fyi please consider .. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article41790.htm ... as important as it is uplifting.

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 6 years ago

''More Endless Art'' - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyBWXb2b9ho

ars longa, vita brevis ...