Forum Post: Leader for the leaderless (poll)
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 8, 2011, 2:21 p.m. EST by wonder
(79)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Do you think occupy wall street needs a leader? Please pick one of the following Comments are welcome, please leave your vote!
[] Yes, we could use someone to rally us / unite us and our ideals
[] Yes, but not right now
[] No, this is a leaderless movement and needs to stay that way
[] I don't know
At this stage, no, OWS is and should remain a leaderless movement.
Now.. take a poll on whether or not we should have specific goals, and I bet that would turn up curious results.
Yeah... I can't remember if it was you or someone else, but they said leaderless or not you have to have demands
It could've been me, though it could've been someone else. There is a growing sentiment among us that we need to begin asserting clear, concise goals.
(Worded as goals because while synonymous with demands, demands imply entitlement, something our opponents have been using to divide us from the public)
See that's exactly what I'm trying to figure out... this movement is so scattered and diverse that there is no clear goal for the group. Only personal wants.
The reason for that is, the majority only see the symptoms as the problem. There is a gaping chasm between the cause and the effect, and most are simply ignorant of the mechanisms causing their pain. It starts with education. Leaderless or leader-it's democracy that has dismbered our REPUBLIC. Until people realize that the solution is already in place, that we can reassert our rights IF and ONLY IF we understand them.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/interesting-read-about-the-constitution-and-corpor/
good start at link above
you will hate me, but the solution has always been there. You can not serve 2 masters. So who do you serve? look inside, afraid to let go of money? then you serve money. The fear keeps you in bondage. God told you he would take care of you if you did certain things and lived a certain way. Why you ignore such advice? money bought you and told you not to listen. It is clear. You can not save a man who wants to die, as he will always find a way.
Why should I hate you? Let's go!
then you go and find other like minded people and share with them what you have learned, and have been given for free, and encourage them to share FREELY what you have given them. Let this be the beginning of the biggest wave ever formed.
DEMAND only fairness, accept no special privileges for self.
No, this is a leaderless movement and needs to stay that way
stay divided so you are easy to conquer.
Try again.
ok gather together everyone from all walks of life and every corner of the world and unite against Mammon. Together we will stand, divided we WILL FALL. They try daily thru the press and music to divide us. The best way join together in strength and good. Remove those that are evil from within your groups. Be ready to be judged, it is close. Ask for forgiveness for your past sins, now. Turn a new page and help your fellow man, ALL OF THEM, of any sub group that is created by evil dividers. And everyone work to find ways to get along and resist what those that are filled with evil tell you to do. And to know how to tell them apart, by their FRUITS you shall know them and judge them good or evil filled. Pray for both groups. One that they may stand strong against evil and the other that they may turn away from evil and serving mammon. Flame away
There isn't anything to flame as you haven't said anything. Both feet firmly planted on the ground not one foot in the grave.
I have said enough to be killed for
No, not really.
yes I have. Look spread the good word. Safely. There is much power in having the right attitudes towards things as them fear can not move in to rule your decisions. My time is also short it is clear. I need to say what I have been given while I still have time. Spread the word, resist evil, love others as self.
if you live in the United States, you aren't going to die because of your religious belief. That doesn't fly.
that may be true today but if tomorrow they change a law they can go to this discussion group and round up all the "problems", like me, quickly. FEMA camps look a lot like Natzi camps. What is the real reason they were built? Wake up Wake up. Leaders can change the constitution with the stroke of a pen and we do not stop them from doing it. There are powers that want to control us that can not until some very few laws get changed. They are changing quickly. Ready for your "number"??????
You are real paranoid aren't you?
i see reality and there is reason to fear for my body. I will protect my soul thou. There is no need to fear those that will destroy the body, mine is ruined already. Fear those that would destroy your soul.
What reason do you have to fear?
light leaks in thru a shut door sometimes.
Proceed with fear. :/
Proceed with LOVE for your fellow man. All of them, all colors all languages, all locations.
Of course we need a leader. This is anarchy.
Our current leaders are anarchists. We need to lose the anarchy and the direct democracy nonsense. Put in place an effective organizational structure with real leaders to address government corruption in a legitimate way, working with and through government for change.
This anarchy is holding this movement back. It is absurd and ridiculous.
First you should ask if we are truly leaderless right now. The NYCGA is the de-facto leader despite their repeated claims to the contrary. You know, tell a lie often enough and big enough. Is the NYCGA incompetent or infiltrated? Or do they simply like being the center of attention? So since they're UNELECTED, and you are here "electing" to possibly have a leader using a poll, you have to ask yourself why, when the oligarchs tell you in 'official' vision statements on an 'official' website that 'we' are leaderless and non political, why you believe them.
The solution is simple. NYCGA must insist on a National General Assembly whose delegates are elected by the people.
That is the one and only demand, and we demand it of OURSELVES.
You have to add this option to your poll:
[] the 876 delegates, duly elected from every congressional district, will be the voice of OWS99%. We are leaderful, however we reserve the right to duly elect two people should the National General Assembly feel the need to occupy the White House...
no leader ... makes it very difficult for TPTB to shut the movement down.
Well I mean then they prey on the smaller things that happen and then generalize the group based on whatever happens
they are trying hard to influence public opinion. Watch them carefully.
WE are the leaders. I think we could use recognized SPOKESPERSONS, though. Without them we get things like MoveOn claiming to represent us. Without a spokesperson that we can put forward to refute that, people will believe it and perhaps be pulled away in the confusion.
Wait, move on DOESN'T represent you?
Read some of the older posts bitching about them trying to co-opt the movement and then going on to try using our language to push their own campaigns. The comments in those threads are pretty illustrative of the disdain many of us have for their attempts to take control of the movement.
Right I suppose that's more what I'm getting at. I had used the word "representatives" in another conversation but others seemed to see that at leaders nonetheless. There is too much confusion. People get upset when we ask what you want, when there is nothing set in stone.
if you put forward a spokesman they will hang him on a cross like they did with the last one, to cause you to fear and lost your faith in what is right. Its the same group of money changers that killed him last time that will kill him again. The only time Jesus got angry and violent was when he went to the temple and turned over the tables of the money changers. THINK the money changers want you to forget your religions for a reason. So they can have full control of your life, and soul, and to have all they money a press could print. Now we need to prey for those money changers that they might see the evil of their ways and repent and be saved before it is too late for them. Yes I have lost my mind. That might be good.
as MScott Peck said, "A group of all leaders: Members harness the “flow of leadership” to make decisions and set a course of action. It is the spirit of community itself that leads and not any single individual."
MScott Peck speaks about this in The Different Drum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck
Characteristics of True Community Peck describes what he considers to be the most salient characteristics of a true community[8]:
Inclusivity, commitment and consensus: Members accept and embrace each other, celebrating their individuality and transcending their differences. They commit themselves to the effort and the people involved. They make decisions and reconcile their differences through consensus.
Realism: Members bring together multiple perspectives to better understand the whole context of the situation. Decisions are more well-rounded and humble, rather than one-sided and arrogant.
Contemplation: Members examine themselves. They are individually and collectively self-aware of the world outside themselves, the world inside themselves, and the relationship between the two.
A safe place: Members allow others to share their vulnerability, heal themselves, and express who they truly are. A laboratory for personal disarmament: Members experientially discover the rules for peacemaking and embrace its virtues. They feel and express compassion and respect for each other as fellow human beings.
A group that can fight gracefully: Members resolve conflicts with wisdom and grace. They listen and understand, respect each others' gifts, accept each others' limitations, celebrate their differences, bind each others’ wounds, and commit to a struggle together rather than against each other.
A group of all leaders: Members harness the “flow of leadership” to make decisions and set a course of action. It is the spirit of community itself that leads and not any single individual.
A spirit: The true spirit of community is the spirit of peace, love, wisdom and power. Members may view the source of this spirit as an outgrowth of the collective self or as the manifestation of a Higher Will.
Very good very good. But, I believe an organization needs to be put in to effect that will submit ideas to the whole that is by the whole. A "does everyone think this is a good idea?' kind of organization. Still that seems like it won't please everyone... and I don't think a majority vote would be fair since the minority wouldn't be included... problematic eh?
You cant please all the people all the time. This forum has a wide range of ideas. I may not agree to some, you may not agree with me etc....but we are all here for one reason.....OUR future, our childrens future, the future of the USA. The founding fathers are smiling down on us!
Well.. with no concise ideas, how does anything plan to get done? I feel a sense of entitlement from this group. A "The government needs to fix my problems because they are the government" kind of idea. I thought the idea of government was to govern, not to babysit...
There are some people here that feel that way. But a good majority are like me.....hard working people that just want a fair way to their own destiny. Fair so they may fail or succeed. But fair is MUST be.
Vote me I am a leader
Have you ever been to an occupation or a GA? What makes you think that OWS doesn't have any leaders? It has many, many leaders. It is simply the most ego free movement that has ever existed so while it has many great leaders, nobody is especially interested in selling themselves.
Why do you feel the need for a leader? What do you think a leader does? Don't you have any self confidence? Are you so insecure that you think that you won't know what to do, that you won't know what needs to be done unless somebody else tells you? Answer me that.
can a concept be a leader? like the bill of rights or the constitution are concepts of freedoms given by God. Can such a document lead? Can the reform of momentary policy be a leading concept for OWS?
Interesting point... I'll be sure to include that (hopefully) in my paper
I would like to get a copy of your paper, when done. please post it on .....http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-and-unjust-rulers/ when done thanks
is wonder a troll?
Nah I'm just WONDERING :D
hehe...jokes...
seems like u r, seems like u r using people, taking up their time
Using? In a sense I am, and in a sense I am taking up their time. Not with the negative connotations/denotations given with those statements, of course. I'm "using" them to find out information on occupy wall street ideals. I'm "taking up their time" because that's an unfortunate cost of research, but they seem willing enough to oblige.
perhaps they're sweet people and think ur innocent youth. guess they'll soon realize ...
Nah, jjuussttmmee is helping me with my paper! Wins for all!
anyone that WANTS to be leader is not qualified. The leader needs to be placed there by those to be lead. and to be leader you must not be able to be bought or controlled by evil, only good. Big problem who can be leader?.
NO! stop asking. This is not even an option. The second you have a leader you know start to polarize the group then you have someone to crucify when things go bad. This is by the people for the people. The moment you chose one person you have elected a politician. No NO no nO
Sorry, but you gotta fight politics with politics... beat them at their own game.
not always. if the rules are rigged it is silly to use them.
This has nothing to do with politics. we are not a political movement. We are not affiliated with left right or anything else, we are the voices of the 99% some of us are republicans who are pissed because our party is not representing us and some of us are democrats who are pissed because our party is not representing us. We are creating a forum where all voices can be heard, not drowned out by the billions of dollars corporations give to politics so they are the only ones heard. We fight them by not engaging in there flawed political system which forces 50% of americans to fight the other 50% We are united, we have much more in common than the two parties would like us to believe, we all want our voices heard. we need to focus on what we agree on and not on hot button politically divisive isuues that only serve to keep us fighting. yeah that works real good....just look at how much work a divided congress gets done.
Haha my paper is going to be so interesting. Thank you for your input
Oh I see you are writing a paper. Good for you. Gald you are interested, OWS is a very interesting topic. It is a type of movement that has never been tried that we know of in America. A leaderless movement. If you want a really interesting discussion for your paper you might post another question. "What are the pros and cons of a leaderless movement" That might get some more interesting debate. Having a decentralized movement that has virtually no hierarchy of leaders and managers makes for a real democracy. That is the main goal of the movement. Getting back to true democracy, where every single voice gets heard. People are uncomfortable with not having a leader because it means everyone becomes the leader. we all are responsible for leading this movement by voicing our opinions. A true democracy looks very messy from the outside, a lot of debating like in the days of Athens greece (the first democratic city over 2000 years ago.) Debate is not bad it helps bring important points to the surface and gives everyone the opportunity to have their voice heard. Today's representative democracy makes it so that those with the most money can influence the people who are supposed to be representing the masses. A direct democracy where everyone votes on every issue can get tedious but it really makes for a truer democracy. So we are trying to show that you can not represent the voices of such a diverse group by electing one leader. In fact I will post the question for you as I am also curious to start that thread and see peoples views on this revolutionary concept of a leaderless movement.
That's actually a really good idea... plus it could really easily eat up like, a quarter of what is required. I'm going to make another post... I'm really interested in objectivism by Ayn Rand and wonder what wall streeters will think of it.
This leaderless accusation is getting old. There are leaders, people who have been involved since the beginning, who are facilitating the process, gathering information, arguing amongst themselves, working things out.
They may not be leaders in the traditional way of thinking about it. But they are there, midwifing this movement. They are working, not to provide a specific agenda, but to ensure a fair process of arriving at an agenda.
As the movement matures, I am sure (or at least hopeful) that things will coalesce, and a course of action begun.
Occupy Wall Street is leaderless resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%. We are using the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic to achieve our ends and encourage the use of nonviolence to maximize the safety of all participants.
I suppose what confuses me is that statement. How is it an accusation? I'm simply reiterating what YOUR GROUP have already iterated.
It is leaderless in the traditional sense. That does not means there are no leaders as I described them.
BARACK OSAMA IS OUR LEADER
You dumb suckers! Don't you know we almost WON?
we be the 99% we has us a Leader!!!
why dont us wake up and say truth?
Barack Osama is GOD!
There are leaders everywhere in this movement, including those who initiated it, who were wise enough to invent the idea of "no leaders" and all the benefits that creates. This includes others being able to step in and lead in their own way all across the globe, and no particular person gaining attention at the expense of the ideas. No out front leader means the movement can't be squashed by taking out out one person, which also makes it safer for those taking active roles, who could otherwise be subject to character or even physical assassination.
The movement should be lead by ideas, which can not be silenced. It would be good if numerous individuals could act as spokespersons articulating those ideas, but first those ideas must rise to the surface where they can be recognized and defined. (See the post, "A Means of Reaching Consensus")
One man can not change the world alone, but one idea, shared by enough people, will have already changed the world.
As republicans come closer to choosing thier leader, this movement must do the same. We must save our country from the Plutocracy (government of the wealthy) that is trying to be imposed on us. We need to get back to a philisophical government with ethics and morals to our society and citizens
Yes. A clear, concise purpose needs to be articulated for this movement to be taken seriously! What happened to the philosophical government our forefathers founded? Where is the ethical and moral responsibility to our citizens? Our government is turning to Plutocracy (government of the wealthy). Leadership is imperative now to bring the message that we want fairness, a clear message must be sent to congress that we aren't going to lay down and take part in the political illness. Republicans are close to choosing thier leader to cut all social programs, this movement needs leadership that can save them!
I'm probably just old fashioned, but I say find a leader. At worst, keep it leaderless, but find a few specific things to rally around.
How long do you really think he will last before they "disappear" him with the Patriot Act?
see the problem with this is that everyones afraid a leader will be killed. With that logic, the patriot act basically entitles them to slaughter every protester.
no main leader now, but later, still, then, the leader will be attacked. We need a leader who can take the HUGE attacks that will follow against that leader. The only leader that can NOT BE PURCHASED is available ready willing and able to step in, AND WIN, but you must first ask him to do so, and believe he can do it, or it will fail. Perhaps everyone needs to begin a personal search for a leader we could put forward. We need a wise fair and UN-bribable leader we could put our souls behind, and TRUST!, and that ALL the world would follow, BECAUSE OF THE FAIRNESS INVOLVED.
Unfortunately there isn't a way to be perceivably fair to everyone
if you look there is a way. I am SURE of it. And there is a leader who would be more fair than any person or evil spirit could ever be. But his name is taboo today. So we can call him the leader with no name. How would they find and kill him then? You know they are waiting for him to arrive so they can do as they did last time to him. So lets say our new leader just has no name for now. But he is leading, OK?
So... you're making up a leader?
No not me I discovered he was already there, waiting to take charge. Look inside and you will know LUKE:17. 20 + 21 The coming of the Kingdom of God 20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "the kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation (my words science). 21 nor will people say. Here it is," or "There it is" because the kingdom of God is WITHIN you. ...... That being said when Jesus died he went and sat at the right hand of God in the kingdom of God (which is within you) Jesus is within you NOW. It is HIM WHICH WILL STAND AGAINST MAMMON if you allow it. It is you that must stand against money and its effects on civilization. Stop accepting it as payment of any debt. THINK or someone else that believes differently (slavery) will think for you. Give the state all your rights and they will protect you, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Satin talking, watch out, by his fruits you will know him.
So occupy wall street... is led by jesus?
no but it could be, and they would try to kill him again if he returned again. Mark my word. What leader do you have that can come against powerful mammon? and not just fall apart? or be bought? any man can be bought, any man can fall apart, the price to buy a man varies thou. But really if you print your own money who cares how much it costs to buy a soul?
This is great. You two claim to be in the same movement, but are completely disagree with eachother on this.
I made no claim except that a good just leader is needed and then suggested one. Tell me where the disagreement is. Are you a divider? or a gatherer? it is harvest time, time to gather. Do YOU WORSHIP MAMMON?
The disagreement is that you would willingly accept a religious leader, and he isn't having that. What's with this "either or" logic? The world doesn't work that way. And who's declaring harvest other than you? What is this harvest metaphor even about? And mammon? You seem to ask that as some sort of defense. "He doesn't agree, so he must worship mammon"
some will look without seeing, others will hear without perceiving, some will be called and not come. Free choice is yours. I WILL FOLLOW THE LAWS OF THE LAND and I WILL NOT BE VIOLENT or try to CAUSE THE DESTRUCTION of our Gov. If I see a leader worthy of leading me I will follow. Until then the new mammon leader can lead the parade any direction he wants, I might not even watch the "parade" let alone follow, as I have free choice, and intend to use it as long as I still have it. The world works the way it does BECAUSE OF MAMMON. nuf said.
[] We are all leaders..
Leadership, voted on by us. We need to organize better. Form a loose "leadership" voted by all of us. In order to vote, we should have a site to register at. Each applicant to join, and in turn, to vote, should be screened. Its a start.......
the problem is above our leaders, its the leaders of our (so called) leaders that is the problem that leader has both Republicans and Democrats as followers. Their leaders are the problem. who do they serve? everyone in real power all have more than a $1,000,000.00 (and consider those with trillions as totally sick and evil and in need of many many many many prayers from everyone else) so they must be those that serve mammon and thus their fruits can not be good, so reject the fruits they claim are good. Gold silver paper money are not good fruits, can you eat them? fruit should be able to be eaten to be good. If they did not serve mammon they would not have more than $1,000,000.00. Let alone trillions of our debt. The size of their bank accounts show how much they serve mammon. The more they got the higher they are in the mammon power structure. That can be a just rule of their level of serventship to mammon. If we only elected people with a net worth of less than 70% of the country, we could exclude some of the worse money worshipers from places of power OVER us. THINK HARD the time is short we need to do things that will have the most impact. Help others in need. Educate those who have been sleeping. Spread love.
Perhaps. Kind of discriminative. Term Limits. Two terms per elected official. That would stop big money from dominating. It would stop career politicians that can be bought and sold, or coersed to vote on a bill because they have been in power for 20 something years and have a special pork bone added in the bill for their district to vote yes on a bill they would otherwise have voted no.
if we only allow people to SERVE that are not from money. Then money can not control us. Why do we want rich people to go to gov?. that allows the rich to rule. How stupid. But we allowed it. And may never be able to change it back. Our election system is geared towards only electing those that have risen in Mammons power. How right is that?
We allowed it because its written in the constitution. Today we dont allow the rich, tomorrow we exclude people earning more than 100 grand, next week its the Italians......remember, the constitution states "for the prople, by the people".
but now it reads for the rich by the rich with those with no money for campaigns contributions ignored. How would you fix the problem of money in gov helping other money before citizens? If someone who had more wealth than 70% of the population and wanted to run for office to serve the people, he, or she still could. But only after he gave away enough money to lower his net worth to 70% of the nations average net worth. Give to the extra to the poor, what better way to begin public service for the very rich? Than to show your generosity to the masses?,
Many still believe this movement should be leaderless... often I perceive that leaderlessness is only because the site says it's a leaderless movement. A leader certainly makes more sense to me, but others say it's getting along fine without one.
It is for now. It will soon split off into numerous directions and dwindle out and an oppertunity wasted.
So this is going nowhere basically (to you) ?
Kinda like the wheels are stuck and spinning. Some ot he ideas hear are brilliant, and the people are behind it. I have been followin g this from day one with great interest and hope. But cant say its going to change the SYSTEM as it is now.
If it truly wishes to advance any realistic agenda, a movement will require a resonating message and effective leadership.
Russ Feingold.
[Removed]
this is a leaderless movement and needs to stay that way
I only recommended Russ Feingold because he is the cousin of my wife.
The concept of Leaders among primates comes from primitive penis worship.
So find the protester with the biggest weenie and make him the leader...?