Forum Post: Jubilee Now!
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 13, 2012, 10:18 a.m. EST by agkaiser
(2547)
from Fredericksburg, TX
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Public Forum
0 comments 2 hours ago by agkaiser
0 comments 3 days ago by agkaiser
1 comments 1 week ago by agkaiser
0 comments 3 weeks ago by agkaiser
1 comments 1 month ago by agkaiser
0 comments 2 months ago by factsrfun
7 comments 2 months ago by factsrfun
4 comments 2 months ago by factsrfun
4 comments 2 months ago by factsrfun
4 comments 3 months ago by gsw
7 comments 3 months ago by factsrfun
3 comments 3 months ago by agkaiser
0 comments 3 months ago by agkaiser
1 comments 4 months ago by grapes
2 comments 4 months ago by agkaiser
0 comments 4 months ago by agkaiser
4 comments 4 months ago by agkaiser
2 comments 5 months ago by rachelodell
2 comments 7 months ago by gsw
2 comments 11 months ago by factsrfun
5 comments 2 years ago by agkaiser
6 comments 2 years ago by grapes
15 comments 2 years ago by gsw
12 comments 2 years ago by BrentWeirick81
A liberal sees nothing wrong with the abstract operations of finance but just wants to minimize the harm it does to the community, while participating for his or her own enrichment. The problem is: it's not real work. It makes its percentages on the work of others. It's a skim like a casino on the games in which they don't really play. If such services are necessary, they must be done of by and for the people on a non profit basis, to minimize the harm they do (by their non productive nature) to the economy and the community that makes exchange of real goods possible.
'Occupy Jubilee !!! + Thanx for a GR8 'forum-post' and comment. I really dig http://strikedebt.org/ :-)
In brief, my reading of "Jubilee" is that the ancient OT Hebrew Elders understood that a son could perhaps be responsible for and pay his father's debts and/or a grandson could conceivably be a direct beneficiary of his grand-father's borrowing of money and could thus be morally responsible for paying of his grand-father's debts BUT that anything more would be 'generational debt bondage' (especially if one factored in 'interest') and this would have been understood to have been unfair, unreasonable and also unethical. Thus, every 49/50 years the Ancient Israelite Elders in their foresight and wisdom, declared that all debts were null and void. Thus, freed of their debt-burden and quite understandably - festivities, celebrations and much merry making - ensued !!
radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ...
You might find this interesting from today's NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/14/nyregion/occupy-offshoot-aims-to-erase-peoples-debts.html?ref=todayspaper
I extracted two links from that very interesting NY Times article :
http://rollingjubilee.org/ &
http://www.scribd.com/doc/105887484/Occupy-Wall-Street-Strike-Debt-The-Debt-Resistors-Operations-Manual .
From the article, "an offshoot of the Occupy Wall Street movement called Strike Debt, is trying to buy some of the debts that people have accrued — which lenders often sell for pennies on the dollar to third parties who either try to collect on it or bundle it up for resale. Strike Debt, however, is not looking to collect on them; instead it plans to give some debtors the surprise of a lifetime. “Basically what we’re going to do is exactly the same as what a regular debt buyer would do, with one big difference,” said Thomas Gokey, an artist and teacher. “Rather than collect the debt, we’re just going to abolish it.”
Further, "The group is holding a fund-raiser on Thursday at the Greenwich Village nightclub Le Poisson Rouge, and says it has already raised $129,000 through online donations — enough to buy $2.5 million worth of defaulted loans, thanks to their steep markdowns. The people who incurred the debt in the first place will get a certified letter informing them they are off the hook.
Finally, "This is a long-term thing,” said Christopher Casuccio, who graduated with about $100,000 in student debt. “We all know it’s going to take years to transform the economic system.”
Thanx again for this simply excellent link 'bw' and cross linking with :
http://occupywallst.org/article/help-abolish-debt-peoples-bailout-variety-show-tel/#comments ,
http://www.lepoissonrouge.com/lpr_events/peoples-bailout/ (re.Thursday 15th Nov. fundraiser),
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/jeff-mangum-plans-occupy-wall-street-fundraiser-20121024 .
fiat lux ...
Great links. That "Strike the Debt Resistors Operations Manual" is amazing. It is so great to see OWS doing real concrete things to help change the way our economy operates. And, the Rolling Jubilee is exactly what we need to do and I can't help but wonder why the government doesn't step in on this matter. Sort of laughing here, because we know that, technically, a lot of this debt can be forgiven, and we also know why the gov't won't do it. Do you happen to still have the article that addressed that? Thanks.
a) "Debt and Democracy – Has the Link Been Broken?", by Dr. Michael Hudson : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article32754.htm ;
b) "Your Money or Your Life: Humanity Nears a Deadline to Decide Which it Will Surrender", by Kellia Ramares-Watson : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29935.htm ;
c) "Odious Debt", by 'Washington's Blog' : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24662.htm ;
d) "Rescue for the Few, Debt Slavery for the Many", by Dr. Michael Hudson : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21004.htm &
e) "The Terrorism Of Debt", by 'Wanda Fish' : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4368.htm .
~
Re. your reply - you're right, http://strikedebt.org/ 's "Strike the Debt Resistors Operations Manual" - is an amazing resource, especially in conjunction with 'Rolling Jubilee', http://rollingjubilee.org/ .
I appended the articles above in response to your enquiry as I'm not 100% sure exactly sure which article you mean, though the first Prof. Michael Hudson article, may be the one. If the piece you have in mind is none of the above, then revert to me with a little more info. and I'll see what I can do. The articles above are all relevant either to your query or to the thread or both and btw bw, take it easy with all the reading, lol.
radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ....
Those are all great articles and they address exactly what I was talking about although my memory fails me as to the one I was thinking of in particular. I think it is really a positive sign that so much is being written about debt jubilees. Googling this topic today provides many many more articles than just a few months ago. So, yaay! Maybe we are getting somewhere!
"Socialism for the Rich - Capitalism for Everyone Else", by Mark Braund :
"Few people question current arrangements for money issue, but allowing privately owned banks to create money is like putting a three year old in charge of a sweet shop."
Understanding the nature of 'money and debt' is key to our future society ...
ipsa scientia potestas est ...
Fractional Reserve Banking, little understood, is a big part of our economic problem. So, toward comprehension, from the article:
"Nearly all money is created as debt, repayable at interest. This means that all loans have to be repaid with money also created as debt and loaned at interest. No wonder the economy struggles, when the system of money creation heaps cost upon unnecessary cost. And no wonder the banks generate such enormous profits."
"Economic stability, business efficiency and social justice all demand a complete overhaul of the monetary system. "
And, this is truly why a jubilee is possible. Most of the money owed in this country doesn't really exist, it is based solely on faith.
Definition of Fiat Money from Investopedia:
"Currency that a government has declared to be legal tender, despite the fact that it has no intrinsic value and is not backed by reserves. Historically, most currencies were based on physical commodities such as gold or silver, but fiat money is based solely on faith."
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fiatmoney.asp#ixzz2CW9lRMBA
All money is based on faith that it can be exchanged for real and often useful goods. Gold is just pretty metal that bird brains desire. It's intrinsic value as metal is less than iron or copper, except as highly sensitive electrical contacts. But normal people have faith that Au can be traded for the things they need or want. By now I think all intelligent people have realized that normal is not as bright as the gold that normal values so highly.
Btw: Crows like shiny things and carry them home to decorate their nests. What can be expected of bird brains?
Money is supposed to represent something of value, be it gold, wheat or whatever. It is supposed to make trading goods easier so that you don't have to trade said good for said good, but you can hold off on the trade and make it later. It is supposed to be a medium of exchange, a unit of account or a store of value and nothing more. We have gotten far away from the true meaning of money and we are suffering the consequences.
Yep! Too sad. What most people value I don't understand. They're all pumped up with media hype and corporatist propaganda.
Well, what has happened is that greed has taken over and the powers that be have figured out ways to dupe people with regard to money. Money, money, money. When, in reality it is not really about the money, it is about the goods it represents. We have a lot of people who have amassed phony "money" to an extent that it could never represent items or goods that they need or could even ever possibly consume. They have excess phony wealth.
Re. "a jubilee is possible. Most of the money owed in this country doesn't really exist, it is based solely on faith" - this is an absolutely essential and critical distillation of the situation so thank you deeply for expressing that so succinctly ( http://occupywallst.org/forum/jubilee-now/#comment-878199 ).
I know that you know what you wrote, lol - but I strongly recommend to any and all readers that they quietly reflect on your last three comments immediately above, in order to see and feel the clear love, light and logic therein. My apologies in my eulogy embarrasses you at all but to be honest, I think that an amalgam of your clear, cool and concise comments on this thread deserve consideration, cogitation and copying too ! Finally, I append :
fiat lux ...
Very interesting article by Hudson. You know, debt peonage seems to be just as bad a crime against humanity as any other. It rips the humanity and right to a decent life straight away from people. If we fail to fix this problem we will not make it as a civilization.
From the article, "In a nutshell, debt peonage is the other side of the coin in a rentier economy. The negative equity we are seeing today is a key component of debt peonage. It forces debt peons to spend their lives trying to work their way out of debt. The more desperate they get, the more risks they take, and the deeper they end up." It is a cycle of destruction, in my opinion, and one that is forced upon people.
Gold is more than just a shiny metal. It is a commodity just like wheat or oil or shells. But it has many more desirable properties beside it's beauty. First, it doesn't rust, so it won't gradually disappear. Second, it's rarity guarantees it's supply can't be increased rapidly. And third, because it requires many hours of labor to extract, the value it contains is high.
That's why gold is the most efficient form of barter used for centuries. Wheat is too bulky, oil is too heavy, and shells quantity can be increased too rapidly.
Unlike currency, gold isn't based on faith because it contains the real labor that it took to produce it. It's real money just like a bushel of wheat is real money. Gold is just incredibly more convenient.
Thanks BW. That was a very concise article on what this is about. We should all be gratified that so many intelligent, young people with financial backgrounds are a part of OWS.
~Odin~
It is great, and to see them taking action, even greater. Go Occupy!
"Strike Debt" did a presentation at the Judson Church near Washington Square Park on the evening of S16. The church is definitely not your typical type of church, as the pastor gave a fiery speech which ended in Occupy Wall Street! Unfortunately the sound system was not good, and there were people talking near me, so i did not hear a lot of what it was about. After a long day though, the dinner afterward was great :-). Anyway your link was very helpful to me in understanding this better. This OWS affinity group has also produced many debt manuals, and I meant to bring one with me to AK, but i forgot. However, I will look into this more. Thanks again.
~Odin~
Cool story. Here's a link to the "Strike Debt Resistors' Operation Manual." I'd like to get a hard copy of that myself. Enjoy your visit to AK, Odin.
Thanks, but the link didn't come through.
Geesh. Forgot to put the link. Here it is:
http://strikedebt.org/The-Debt-Resistors-Operations-Manual.pdf
Yeah. And Moses wasn't the only leader of those times to do so. Apparently all the old Mesopotamian kings and priests realized that the whole economy must stall when wealth becomes too concentrated and that interest and debt gaurantee concentration of wealth with the lenders.
From the Reference section at the end of my book:
"July 2010 Harper's; Notebook – Agrarian Anxiety, Steven Stoll, Associate Professor of History at Fordham. It starts with Cain and Able and moves on through the actual rise of power of agrarian culture and the continued attempts of ancient Judaism to moderate it's tendency to tyranny."
http://khackegm.tripod.com/volhtm/endgame/Research-docs.htm/HarpersMagazine-2010-07-Agrarian-Anxieties-Stoll
"Andy Gause : Federal Reserve note vs. US note" :
Thanx for your very interesting link and I further append :
e tenebris, lux ...
http://www.sovereignfellowship.com/tos/16.3/
Saint Thomas Aquinas:
He who takes usury for a loan of money acts unjustly for he sells what does not exist. It is wrong in itself to take a price (usury) for the use of money lent, and as in the case of other offences against justice, one is bound to make restitution of his unjustly acquired money. — The Church and Usury, by Rev. P. Cleary
Benjamin Franklin:
While visiting England in 1763, Benjamin Franklin was asked how he accounted for the prosperous condition of the Colonies. His reply was:
That is simple. It is only because in the Colonies we issue our own money. It is called “Colonial Scrip” — and we issue it in the proper proportion to the demands of trade and industry.
Soon that information was brought to the Rothschild’s bank which coerced the English Parliament to pass a Bill providing that no Colony could issue its own money. Franklin said: Within one year from that date the streets of the Colonies were filled with the unemployed. Franklin later said that this was the original cause of the Revolutionary War. In his own language:
The Colonies would gladly have borne the little tax on tea and other matters had it not been that England took away from the Colonies their money, which created unemployment and dissatisfaction. — Lightning Over The Treasury Building, by J.R. Elsom
Thanx for the very beautifully timed historical quotes, to which I'm happy to append :
History "is where a revolution in thinking should start. This is where the morally repugnant elite control structure should end."
respice, adspice, prospice ...
[Removed]
Yes, but I thought it was the Demand from England that colonies pay the Tax in Silver or Gold which was not plentiful ...that really maybe every colonist poor. I probably got that from VIdeo called "Money Masters".
Now the Rumor is that Sadam Hussein, Colonel Quadaffi, and Iran have all been working on getting out of the Euro & Dollars and that is why we hae been taking them down one at a time....
I'll take Franklin's word for it over your thought.
And rumors of the rising spirits of Arab or North African Boogeymen don't even make me curious.
Did you ever watch Bill Still or G. E. Griffin. I think there is some colaboration between them on projects. Bill Still is behind the series called "Money Masters". You are kind of cocky aint ya.
Cocky yes. I told my children when they said I should grow up that I am too old to grow anything but out. When my grandchildren, the oldest is almost 8, are old enough to ask, I'll tell them the same thing. As to S & G, I don't care what color the money is as long as it can serve its purpose of moving goods about to where they're needed. I'll repeat my comment from above:
Saint Thomas Aquinas:
He who takes usury for a loan of money acts unjustly for he sells what does not exist. It is wrong in itself to take a price (usury) for the use of money lent, and as in the case of other offences against justice, one is bound to make restitution of his unjustly acquired money.
— The Church and Usury, by Rev. P. Cleary
Benjamin Franklin:
While visiting England in 1763, Benjamin Franklin was asked how he accounted for the prosperous condition of the Colonies. His reply was:
That is simple. It is only because in the Colonies we issue our own money. It is called “Colonial Scrip” — and we issue it in the proper proportion to the demands of trade and industry.
Soon that information was brought to the Rothschild’s bank which coerced the English Parliament to pass a Bill providing that no Colony could issue its own money.
Franklin said:
Within one year from that date the streets of the Colonies were filled with the unemployed. Franklin later said that this was the original cause of the Revolutionary War.
In his own language:
The Colonies would gladly have borne the little tax on tea and other matters had it not been that England took away from the Colonies their money, which created unemployment and dissatisfaction.
— Lightning Over The Treasury Building, by J.R. Elsom
http://www.dinksfinance.com/2009/05/aristotle-on-usury/
There are two sorts of wealth-getting, as I have said; one is a part of household management, the other is retail trade: the former necessary and honorable, while that which consists in exchange is justly censured; for it is unnatural, and a mode by which men gain from one another. The most hated sort, and with the greatest reason, is usury, which makes a gain out of money itself, and not from the natural object of it. For money was intended to be used in exchange, but not to increase at interest. And this term interest, which means the birth of money from money, is applied to the breeding of money because the offspring resembles the parent. Wherefore of all modes of getting wealth this is the most unnatural. Aristotle – Politics, Book X.
Re. "The Theory of Money" and further to your comment / excerpt, please do try to catch this insightful and excellent video documentary & also review the very revealing pdf :
"97% Owned" (Director's Cut) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3mfkD6Ky5o &
"Modern Money Mechanics - A Workbook on Bank Reserves and Deposit Expansion ; from The Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago" (for some real insights into 'Fractional Reserve Banking') : http://www.rayservers.com/images/ModernMoneyMechanics.pdf .
e tenebris, lux ...
I thought it was every ten years
Re. 'Jubilee', here's the wiki Matt : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical) & 49/50 years does seem right, tho' I too seem to have some residual memory of 10 years too.
fiat lux ...
"Usurious Compound Interest" is the key to our enslavement and root of the problem. It is a mechanism of 'Capital and Wealth Extraction and Accumulation' and underpins The 'Hoover Up Crapitalism' which we now labour under and chaff against !!!
The FED should be an arm of The Democratic Nation and NOT 'The Cartel of Private Banking Corporations' - which is so clearly the case now !!
Further, 'Occupy The SEC' ( http://www.occupythesec.org/ ) is a critical, technical arm of "Occupy" and also really well worth consideration !
ad iudicium ...
Nice NY Times article today: "Occupy Wall St. Offshoot Aims to Erase People's Debt"
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/14/nyregion/occupy-offshoot-aims-to-erase-peoples-debts.html?ref=todayspaper
Great post, agkaiser! Go Occupy! We can transform this economic system.
Jesus threw the money lenders out of the temple.
There have been usury laws for thousands of years. There were mistakenly lifted (under Carter, no less). They should be reinstituted, with interest capped at or below 15%.
Write On! Much less than 15%. Non profit finance is the way to go.
all of FIRE should be done on a non profit basis of by and for the people. Like the FED, only enough interest to cover salaries and expenses. and the salaries should be under $250k.
It's insane to imagine that a FIRE economy (finance, insurance, real estate) is a real economy. Finance serves the larger economy. If it gets bigger in terms of money involved, a collapse will inevitably result.
How do you know that about the FED? They won't allow the U.S. government to audit them.
I know that the FED is a non profit private bank whose administrators are appointed by the president and approved by the senate, according to the 1913 (or thereabouts) law that established it to assure funding of federal debt.
Much info comes from the FED website. While I'm sure it's misleading like any advertisement, there's also knowledge to be gained there, if only by inference.
Question : The National Debt ( not talkin about budget deficit at the moment ) - the National Debt is something that the Nation owes to itself - Right?
Then: Why does the Nation not freeze the interest on the Debt? I mean all other considerations of budget shortfalls aside. How do you pay a Debt off - when you are not even able to pay the interest on the Debt? Is that not usury on a national scale?
The Treasury sells bonds. That way they can pay our tax money to mostly corporate and some Chinese lenders. The biggest single lender to our gov is the SS trust fund. When they say SS is insolvent they're confessing their intent to default on the money they borrowed to fatten MIC contractors.
An alternative to borrowing is to direct the FED, a non-profit private bank, to issue [electronic] currency to cover the expenses. Or so I think.
There's a great video with Hudson and Wray of U Missouri:
[I just checked the link. It's still good.]
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/09/modern-money-and-public-purpose-the-historical-evolution-of-money-and-debt.html
Modern Money and Public Purpose: The Historical Evolution of Money and Debt
L. Randall Wray and Michael Hudson present at the Modern Money and Public Purpose seminars. L. Randall Wray is a Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri-Kansas City. Michael Hudson Distinguished Research Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri (Kansas City), and President of the Institute for the Study of Long-term Economic Trends (ISLET).
This video is an hour and three-quarters long.
Thx - bookmarked for viewing later. = http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/09/modern-money-and-public-purpose-the-historical-evolution-of-money-and-debt.html
[Removed]
Ironically, it was repelicans who first abolished slavery for US. They later reneged by their support of corporate tyranny as early as the 1870s. It might even be said that the support of war profiteering of business/corporations by Lincoln was where the new bondage began.
Personally I think slavery never really ended, it has merely mutated from time to time since the beginning of civilization.
[Removed]
Yeah! They're worse enemies of the people than all the tyrants and terrorists since the beginning of civilization. They should be eliminated from the gene pool for the health of the Planet. But we'll never get the bill through congress.
[Removed]
Slavery? You mean not getting money for the work that you do? Sounds like you are an advocate for the abolition of taxes.
Is that deliberate or are you just obtuse?
It is the unfair burdensome debt that enslaves American working/middle class.
We must recognize the underhanded tactics of lenders who 'trap' decent unknowing people into life long debt.
Rolling Jubilee Now!
Give them your Mama's credit card number then, dummy
You immaturity reflects the impotence of your position.
I guess your opinion doesn't stand up to truth and civil discussion.
Usury??!! Home loans are 3%. Car loans are 1%. With a credit card, you bet to borrow money for 30 days, free.
What loans are too burdensome?
Cr card rates can be 30% & higher. Payday loans even worse.
There should be limits on that.
Thats only if you fail to pay them off. If used same as cash, they can really help manage expenses. If you buy something you really cant pay off in 30 days, you are foolish with your money.
" A fool and his money are soon parted."
So now you understand usury? And you know it has been a problem throughout history right.? Enough so that all the great religions and govts historically have outlawed it.
Regardless of your lack of sensitivity for the victims of this crime against the 99%. It HAS been a crime for most of history. And needs to be so again here.
look up usury in Leviticus
OK. However in the real world, with inflation, you cant lend money without charging interest. NO ONE, including a peoples coop bank can lend money without interest due to inflation. If you did, the bank would be insolvent in months, maybe weeks.
If you have enough money to lend, you have too much! When Americans wake up, we'll tax it instead of borrowing it!
Never happen. Try to live in reality. Mskes life so much easier.
Sadly that may be true. Most of you really are morons, aren't you?
Sure I will get right on it and give you my credit card info!!!! NOT