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Forum Post: Job creation requires easy entry into entrepeneurial efforts

Posted 1 year ago on Aug. 27, 2012, 1:32 p.m. EST by TheRazor (-329)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Clerks at Walmart or cooks at Burger King will never get paid much. They are easily substituted by either another worker or machine.

We need more Bill Gates and Larry Ellisons and Jeff Bezos. We need to make it easy for the gifted amongst us to invent and create.

48 Comments

48 Comments


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[-] 3 points by TitusMoans (2367) from Boulder City, NV 1 year ago

If the clerks at Walmart and the cooks at Burger King don't get paid much, it's because too many Americans have fallen hook, line, and sinker for the capitalist ploy that workers are nothing more than commodities. Shame on you.

[-] 1 points by TheRazor (-329) 1 year ago

In a global economy yes unskilled workers are hardly more valuable than a bolt in a car or one nail in a wood house. They are commodities to be used and discarded. You can try to wish and hope their lot will improve but it wont.

Your trying to feel good about posting how fry cooks at McDonalds should get $20/hr is stupid and foolish. Instead, rent a small restaurant and pay unskilled workers $20/hr to sling organic ground beef. That wouldnt even take much money. Give it a shot and then report back.

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2367) from Boulder City, NV 1 year ago

Your point apparently is that workers deserve their lot, while the corporate executives, who steal from the workers' labor, deserve their grotesquely unbalanced compensation, which amounts to simplistic acceptance of worker exploitation to further enrich the already rich. I have a suggestion; work as a line cook at a high-volume fast-food restaurant then report back about whether you deserve more than $7.25 an hour.

[-] -2 points by TheRazor (-329) 1 year ago

It isnt remotely about fairness. Its about replaceabilty and scarcity. Its also about what the market will bear. The number of people who can manage 1000s of employees is limited, the number that can work a deep fryer for french fries is large, very large. No one steals labor from anyone. If you dont want to work as a line cook for $7.25, figure out a career that leads to prosperity. There are lots of upwardly mobile career paths but they do involve sacrifice and ambition. They top dog at McDonalds just didnt fall into the job, although you seem to think so, he/she beat out a ton of mid level managers to get to the top.

No one is condemned to being a wage slave. However one does need to make good choices to elevate his station in life. Good auto mechanics are very hard to find. 100s of 1000s of people cant advance because they cant pass a drug test. Whose fault is that? OWS should renounce all forms of recreational drug use, because drug use lowers peoples chances at elevated careers. Why isnt OWS eschewing all drug use?

[-] 7 points by TitusMoans (2367) from Boulder City, NV 1 year ago

You've been dulled by capitalist propaganda. The only people who make workers' compensation proportional to replaceability and scarcity are the capitalists.

Without workers capitalism would instantly fail, but the hegemony exercised by the ruling class deceives workers into believing exactly what you believe: that workers are limited in compensation by relative skill and scarcity, which is nothing more than an outright fabrication. The workers of the Paris Commune proved that they could easily, successfully replace the so-called elite workers, the CEOs, etc, without any difficulty.

Every worker is a necessary part of the system; anything else is only profit-motiviated exploitation.

[-] -1 points by TheRazor (-329) 1 year ago

The Paris Commune of te 1700s is your metric? REALLY? If it were so great, why is simply a footnote? The thinking here is ever and ever more foolish.

if you dont that skill and scarcity are the drivers of compensation, you are certifiably nuts, along with DemandtheGoodlife and other wackos.

I notice you didnt comment on my very cogent point on condemnng drug use. Quite telling, really.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Yes - people working in the wallstreet business really should not be doing drugs. Especially meth or coke as the assholes are already way to wired and out of control - maybe some one could get them some medical marijuana - mellow them out a bit.

[-] 1 points by TheRazor (-329) 1 year ago

This is the sort of post that invalidates ANYTHING you might have written before. Its the sort of post that charactetizes the foolishness of OWS.

Recreational drug use has no value at all in a movement to purify morality.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2727) 1 year ago

This is the sort of Thread and commentary that invalidates ANYTHING you might have written before. Its the sort of post that charactetizes the foolishness of ESTABLISHMENTARIANS.

Recreational drug use has no value at all in a movement to purify morality.

Without all the laborers, how would the markets function? Ford said pay the worker well.

if we take your position and carry it out: "Pay Workers Less. Outlaw Unions" they are all expendable, maybe cats will serve you next time you eat out.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

single post invalidation makes no sense

saying it does is lazy

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Better have a talk with the liquor industry then - Hey?

Expand prohibition - it has done so much for crime.

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2367) from Boulder City, NV 1 year ago

Cogent, really?

I considered it nothing more than a straw man argument. By all means condemn all drug use including tobacco and alcohol as well as all prescription drugs. Your knowledge of history is as poor as your knowledge of economics if you consider the Paris Commune only a footnote.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2727) 1 year ago

Just like legal slaves, without the moral burdens.

"In this economy," I am fortunate that my wife can work at a burger joint.

Good thing I can sign her on my medical plan, or she'd be better off dead, according to you libertarian guys.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by gsw (2727) 1 year ago

good point.

how much did jesus or budda or ghandi make monitarily.

they contributed to humanity by improving their surroundings, and inspiring their people with ideals.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by gsw (2727) 1 year ago

some write for themselves, others to be heard. creativity is the common thread.

what was the value of work for a mother theresa? she was called to make the world a better place.

she worked to care for those who society forgot.

some work for ideals, or free--that is what the capitalist would like from everyone.

if I see TheRazor drowning, maybe he would want to negotiate the price for saving him. he might say 5 dollars, or something.

he may even say go away let him drown, as he was not skilled at swimming

in the good ol'e days, there was not huge differences in wages, except for the aristocracy, who had all the wealth, and sucked it from their feudal serfs.

similar to today except we call it global neoliberalsm

the worker will get paid for what they will settle for.

we do need for people to see not just the world as it is but as what it should be.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 1 year ago

Janice Fields started as a cashier at McDonalds. She is now the president.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

Any entrepreneur needs customers, that is, people with expendable income. So we need more people with expendable income. This can be accomplished through collective investment, via our government in infrastructure.

Infrastructure, both private, such as machine tools in factories, and public, such as transportation and energy systems, allow our workers to produce at higher levels. Of course the workers skills have to raised to higher levels as well.

Higher skill levels and higher productivity of the workers justifies higher pay which enables them to buy the products produced by entrepreneurs. As a result, everybody is happy.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

Nick Hanauer, self-described "super-rich" entrepreneur, gave a pretty compelling TED Talk about how the middle class—not the super-rich—are the real job creators. But TED, which has released over 100 different political videos in the past, thought this one was too partisan and chose not to release it. We didn't notice any flaming partisanship in it. We normally love TED, and were surprised they didn't think this talk was TEDworthy.

Under pressure from the Internets, TED finally relented and released the video. Watch it and decide for yourself if it's really all that controversial to say that the "super-rich are not job creators." Then share it like crazy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBx2Y5HhplI&feature=player_embedded

http://occupywallst.org/forum/breaking-you-know-that-ted-talk-you-werent-suppose/

[-] 1 points by shooz (26733) 1 year ago

You say that as if the folks that work for them get paid all that much better than the clerks and cooks.

They don't.

In fact, much has been written about how abusive the warehouses that serve Amazon really are.

I guess you missed that part.

[-] -1 points by TheRazor (-329) 1 year ago

Then we need more Gates and Ellisons. Microsoft, Apple, and Oracle pay well.

Unskilled labor has very little value in a global economy. That isnt ever going to change. Ever. If you think the order taker at McDonalds is going to make $20/hr, you are jousting at windmills. Retail clerks are now being eliminated by DIY check out. ATMs have killed lots of bank teller jobs. If you are trying to get poorly skilled people more income by legal fiat, it wont work. Never ever.

Forcing people to pay more for a burger will simply put people out of work.

[-] 2 points by shooz (26733) 1 year ago

All labor takes skill.

All laborers should be paid a living wage, not matter what country they are in.

DIY checkouts?? BS

Recent studies have shown that real live people are actually more efficient and some stores are now tearing them out.

Forcing people to pay more for hamburgers, and every damn thing else is what WallStreet has been doing all along and you not only don't BITCH about that, you actually seem to be encouraging it.

[-] 2 points by gsw (2727) 1 year ago

absolutely right.

everyone wants their cut, everyone charges their "fee"

i helped someone, with an issue, paid their lawyer. a burger flipper would be working years to pay such fees. now if these are the only jobs, being created in the system, or if you're in china and have to do what you can with what is available, to survive. Not everyone can end up being "king of the hill"

[-] 1 points by shooz (26733) 1 year ago

It would also help if there were more unionized manufacturing jobs around.

[-] 2 points by gsw (2727) 1 year ago

in this age we should celebrate unionism, but Chris Christi is getting wild cheers,

speaking against unions, on the RNC Podium, Tampa.

[-] 1 points by shooz (26733) 1 year ago

Yes we should, but you may or may not be surprised by the tepid response to unions there is around here.

It doesn't surprise me as I realized a while ago that the Paulie boys and libe(R)trians never went away, they just changed their monikers and started attacking anything and anyone in the least liberal.

[-] -1 points by Shayneh (-482) 1 year ago

What you are up against is that the vast majority of people on this site don't know the first thing about either owning a business or running one.

However they are experts in the field of telling businesses how to distribute their profits

If a person was making $20.00 an hour for slinging burgers - multiply that by at least 8 people slinging burgers a burger would cost $10.00 instead of $1.00 or $2.00.

What most everyone fails to understand is that slinging burgers is for kids coming out of high school. That's why they only get paid minimum wage or $10.00 at most.

It takes a person time to develope their occupational skills - it doesn't happen over a 4 year college degree program nor a 4 year apprenticeship program.

A lot of people have forgotten that to become valuable for an employee you have to have more then one job skill in todays market.

And in order to have more then one job skill in todays market means becoming more educated in the field of occupation.

An accountant is restricted in his search for a job. However a person with a degree in accounting, business management, employee relations, business law will have more opportunities for getting a job then just being an accountant.

In my field I started out as a pipefitter - moved on to learning pipe welding, welding inspection, and plumbing. As time went on I became a foreman and then moved up to supervisor.

From their I moved on to Superintendent and Project manager -

All these learned skills didn't happen overnight. Eventually I landed a job in an office doing estimating, Operations Manager and worked my way into a small business managing and running the business.

Never been without a job during my whole career - never. And to say that I am an exception to the rule is BS. People today are too damm lazy to even think about where they are going to be 10 yeas from now.

I had a plan and have continually looked 5 years down the road with a goal in mind. Never looked back and my income continually increased over the years.

Sure there were lots of times when I had to travel but when I traveled I improved my income and job.

Same approach can be done in any occupation - you pick one that has opportunities not one that doesn't - like being an art major or english major.

Obama made the comment recently that there are thousands of engineering jobs that need to be filled in this country - wonder why that is?

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

There are plenty of decent paying jobs for English majors, if they are willing to go to the right location. Lots of jobs for English majors, or anyone with a Bachelors degree really, teaching English in China making $20 and hour and up.

The schools charge around $50 an hour, and give the teacher around 40%. If you can market yourself, you can collect the whole $50 for an hour.

[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

Talk to anyone that talks to employers regularly - like those of employment agencies for example - and they will all tell you the same thing: over regulation on all fronts is killing entrepreneurial efforts to create and grow business. On the bright side, the Obama admin. has added some 500,000 new Federal jobs to the job market. And will soon be demanding free Federal housing for these employees under the auspices of containing corruption. Truth.

[-] 2 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 1 year ago

"Talk to anyone that talks to employers regularly..." I have a better idea. Talk to an actual employer. I am one. It is not regulation that is the big problem at all. It's lack of consumer demand. The reason for that is that the average incomes of customers, and potential customers has been driven down.

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2367) from Boulder City, NV 1 year ago

The so-called business experts choose to ignore that real wages for the lowest-income American workers have declined over the past thirty years, while real income for college graduates has stagnated or only notched up a point or two. As a matter of fact college graduates today face and unemployment rate and lower wages than their peers of just a few years back. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/business/economy/19grads.html

[-] 2 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 1 year ago

Exactly. I don't want to have to run my business in a third world country.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Consumers drive the market.

It would be nice to say "Buy American" but it's getting harder to do every day.

[-] 2 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 1 year ago

Yes,consumers do drive the market, and I don't seem to be getting a lot of business from those 60 cent an hour Asian workers.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

And they are raking in the big money ( in China ).

[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

Tell that to the little girl trying to open a lemonade stand in Oregon. Or a restaurant in Manhattan. Regulations created behind closed doors by "czars" absolved of all political accountability are killing industry everywhere. Without those jobs, there is no demand for your product.

[-] 2 points by gsw (2727) 1 year ago

well get your corporate buddies to lobby the government to free crony capitalism and allow more freedom for yourselves.

why can't all powerful business, who are worshiped as heroes, accomplish this.

maybe when the rules are relaxed they do as much stealing and hurting of their customer as they can get away with.

we need some health department to check up on TBell, and the selling of sick slimy beef that can't walk, and chickens with tumors, and lettuce with ecoli

what about jack in a box a few years ago

i still enjoy going to catch a fish in the ocean, ability to drink clean water and breathe fresh air

[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

While all of this may be true, we do not need a czar sitting behind closed doors making decisions that will effect 300 million people without recourse.

[-] 2 points by gsw (2727) 1 year ago

is this a drug czar? or a corporate czar?

the people got "the best" the system offered up that they selected at the time.

there is a term limit for president still.

one who wins prize pretending to be a czar was the one before this one, who, because he was so bad, made any other look like a good deal.

[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

We have them even at the local level; they sit behind closed doors to institute arbitrary regulations that all are bound by law to adhere to. Obama's choice of "Czar" is all too fitting and far too blatant an admission.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2727) 1 year ago

this i am really wondering about.

How is competition in the market place good

but in presidential poitics, we only have 2 major parties allowed.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 1 year ago

Well, honestly, i'd say that our political scene looks like our economic scene. When you go to any store, most of the different products are vertically and horizontally controlled by just a few companies, kinda like our political scene. Capitalism is good at consolidating competition. From monopolies of the past to holding companies of the present, the game has not changed much.

[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

It's not that we only permit two parties; it's that those in power have stacked the deck against the third or fourth party, making it virtually impossible for them to enter upon the stage of national debate.

[-] 2 points by gsw (2727) 1 year ago

well "those in power have stacked the deck" is correct.

at all levels, they have a virtual monopoly. which should be ileagle.

I thought "competition in the marketplace" of politics would be a good thing.

we need some more action and better work: from all the power poopers

the deck-stackers (those in power) should suck stinky socks.

will not ever happen because the people don't have power. only elites.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2727) 1 year ago

that's why I like to go live in Mexico. Not so much rules. just wild west.

nice for a bit. then nice to get back too.

sometimes i'm not sure what all the local bosses are doing. at least at that level they are more approachable, there is papers, etc. local pols, councils can do some stupid decisions.

what specifically is the problem?

i don't always like speed limits, but overall is useful. red light cameras also can be tricky.

i think they should fine people who drop gum on sidewalk, or better, have them scrape it off in work crew for 2 days.

[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

I don't blame you; in New York we're heading for our mountain compounds.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

The lack of regulation caused the GFC.

Globalisation, meaning levelling the playing field, and removing tariffs on imports, forced the market to look at third world workers for cheaper labor, and more profit.

[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

Yea, I'll buy that, 100%. But I don't particularity care for regulation that subjugates people to the bureaucrat.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Agree 100%.

So over hearing about austerity measures, while the 1% hand eachother millions and banksters give themselves "performance" bonuses for driving their banks into the ground.