Forum Post: Jerusalem's missing voters
Posted 10 years ago on Dec. 20, 2013, 11:39 a.m. EST by GirlFriday
(17435)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
No one is courting Jerusalem’s Arab residents, many of whom do not even know they have the right to participate in municipal elections. Read the rest here
people often believe they have no power and so surrender control
I agree. Too, I think that for some, just as it is here, they just don't care. There is always going to be that population that would rather do something else. For many of them though I think it's an ideological struggle. For many others they just do not know what rights that they do have-similar to our own society. It makes it really hard because this isn't a society that you can go in and say "don't vote, it doesn't matter." They are already there and it really, really does matter.
By Noam Chomsky, www.Chomsky.info – 16 Aug 2013 …..The Israeli-Palestinian peace talks beginning in Jerusalem proceed within a framework of assumptions that merit careful thought. One prevailing assumption is that there are two options: either a two-state settlement will be reached, or there will be a “shift to a nearly inevitable outcome of the one remaining reality — a state ‘from the sea to the river’,” an outcome posing “an immediate existential threat of the erasure of the identity of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state” because of what is termed “the demographic problem,” a future Palestinian majority in the single state. This particular formulation is by former Israeli Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) chief Yuval Diskin, but the basic assumptions are near universal in political commentary and scholarship. They are, however, crucially incomplete. There is a third option, the most realistic one: Israel will carry forward its current policies with full U.S. economic, military, and diplomatic support, sprinkled with some mild phrases of disapproval. The policies are quite clear. Their roots go back to the 1967 war and they have been pursued with particular dedication since the Oslo Accords of September 1993. The Accords determined that Gaza and the West Bank are an indivisible territorial entity. Israel and the U.S. moved at once to separate them, which means that any autonomy Palestinians might gain in the West Bank will have no direct access to the outside world. A second step was to carry forward the creation of a vastly expanded Greater Jerusalem, incorporating it within Israel, as its capital. This is in direct violation of Security Council orders and is a serious blow to any hope for a viable Palestinian entity. A corridor to the east of the new Greater Jerusalem incorporates the settler town of Ma’aleh Adumim, established in the 1970s but built primarily after the Oslo Accords, virtually bisecting the West Bank. Corridors to the north including other settler towns divide what is to remain under some degree of Palestinian control — “Bantustans,” as they were called by one of the main architects of the policy, Ariel Sharon, in a reference to the territory set aside for black South Africans during the apartheid era. Meanwhile Israel is incorporating the territory on the Israeli side of the “separation wall” cutting through the West Bank, taking arable land and water resources and Palestinian villages. Included are the settlement blocs that “will remain part of Israel in any possible future peace agreement,” as stated by Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev as the current negotiations were announced. The International Court of Justice ruled that all of this is illegal, and the Security Council had already ruled that all of the settlements are illegal. The U.S. joined the world in accepting that conclusion in the early years of the occupation. But under Ronald Reagan, the position was changed to “harmful to peace,” and Barack Obama has weakened it further to “not helpful to peace.”
I am taking Massimo D'Alema's claim that Ariel Sharon said anything remotely close to Bantustans about as seriously as I am taking Nelson Mandela ‘received weapons training’ from Mossad. Not at all. I'm going to need some verification with that. Hold the cheese.
Further, you do realize that Sharon was pro settlement for years and years. Then he did an about face and orchestrated the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, in 2005. In fact, he dismantled four settlements in the West Bank and all of the ones in Gaza, like Kfar Darom. Had he not had the second stroke, he may very well have initiated a unilateral withdrawal from most of West Bank.
Ma’aleh Adumim was actually agreed to by the PA during the Clinton Peace plan.
Let me show you something.
Part of the peace process is the release of 106 Pals. They have murdered someone. This is why they were in prison.
"The High Court of Justice rejected a petition late Tuesday night by the Almagor Terror Victims Association to block the second round of Palestinian prisoner releases scheduled for the same night as part of the ongoing Israeli- Palestinian peace talks.
The petitioners also claimed that some of the prisoners due to be released violated the government’s own standards and were due to be released in error, as they had committed their crimes post-Oslo. One of the principles of the current prisoner release has been to release only prisoners whose crimes were committed pre-Oslo.
The state responded that the defining date for the government’s determination was not the 1993 signing of the Declaration of Principles which started the ball rolling on Oslo, but a 1994 agreement which formalized the 1993 framework, and that all of the crimes came before the 1994 signing.
The petitioners also claimed that the first round of prisoner releases was responsible for a recent uptick in terror emanating from the West Bank, and argued for a delay of the release until the issue could be further scrutinized.
The state responded that security issues and commitments to the US required the release to go forward Tuesday night as planned. link
So, many people are pissed and what does Netanyahu do? Netanyahu to advance east Jerusalem construction as 'compensation' for prisoner release
They don't want that. They want the people that murdered their families locked up.
Here is a little more history on Jerusalem Municipality approves infrastructure budget for Ramat Shlomo
Actually Ramat Shlomo drama goes back much further. Lot's of talk and nobody does anything
are you saying that the Palestinians in Israeli jails are murders? what I am reading is that since 1967 600,000 Palestinians have been held in Israeli jails. I am sure some of them are murderers but let's be real here. first of all it is not a crime to kill a soldier in occupied territory - not sure how that applies to settlers. here a small sample of the crimes of the settlers and the idf and how they are treated. - "Merely to mention one of innumerable cases, shortly before the outbreak of the Intifada a Palestinian girl, Intissar al-Atar, was shot and killed in a schoolyard by a resident of a nearby Jewish settlement. He was one of the several thousand Israelis settlers brought to Gaza in violation of international law and protected by a huge army presence, taking over much of the land and scarce water of the Strip and living “lavishly in twenty-two settlements in the midst of 1.4 million destitute Palestinians,” as the crime is described by Israeli scholar Avi Raz. The murderer of the schoolgirl, Shimon Yifrah, was arrested, but quickly released on bail when the Court determined that “the offense is not severe enough” to warrant detention. The judge commented that Yifrah only intended to shock the girl by firing his gun at her in a schoolyard, not to kill her, so “this is not a case of a criminal person who has to be punished, deterred, and taught a lesson by imprisoning him.” Yifrah was given a 7-month suspended sentence, while settlers in the courtroom broke out in song and dance. And the usual silence reigned. After all, it is routine. As Yifrah was freed, the Israeli press reported that an army patrol fired into the yard of a school for boys aged 6 to 12 in a West Bank refugee camp, wounding five children, allegedly intending only “to shock them.” There were no charges, and the event again attracted no attention. It was just another episode in the program of “illiteracy as punishment,” the Israeli press reported, including the closing of schools, use of gas bombs, beating of students with rifle butts, barring of medical aid for victims; and beyond the schools a reign of more severe brutality, becoming even more savage during the Intifada, under the orders of Defense Minister Yitzhak Rabin, another admired dove ....and as for the war criminal Sharon - wow now he is a peace maker - I won't go into his criminal record just leave you with a bit from noam on gaza - " The US and Israel have been acting in tandem to extend and deepen the occupation. Take the situation in Gaza. After its formal withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in 2005, Israel never relinquished its total control over the territory, often described as "the world's largest prison".
In January 2006, Palestine had an election that was recognised as free and fair by international observers. Palestinians, however, voted "the wrong way", electing Hamas. Instantly, the US and Israel intensified their assault against Gazans as punishment for this misdeed. The facts and the reasoning were not concealed; rather, they were published alongside reverential commentary on Washington's dedication to democracy. The US-backed Israeli assault against the Gazans has only intensified since, in the form of savage violence and economic strangulation. After Israel's 2008-2009 assault, Gaza has become a virtually unliveable place.
It cannot be stressed too often that Israel had no credible pretext for its attack on Gaza, with full US support and illegally using US weapons. Popular opinion asserts the contrary, claiming that Israel was acting in self-defence. That is utterly unsustainable, in light of Israel's flat rejection of peaceful means that were readily available, as Israel and its US partner in crime knew very well.
Full stop. Are you denying that the 106 being released are not murderers?
I would like to say that if you answer my questions I will answer yours - but I won't! really not trying to pick a fight here. this all started when I wondered about your position on the middle east since I had agreed with you on every subject up until that point.. I do not know who they are releasing or why - you may be right that they keep the non violent types because they are the real problem. the u.s. government does much the same. what I do know is how this terrible mess started and why - go back and read about the kissenger Rodgers debate during Nixon's time. also read "the fateful triangle" if you want to be serious. I also know that I do not like brutal occupying armies - especially when they do their work with my government money and support. what Israel does to the Palestinians cannot be justified by any true reading of the facts - there are only two countries in the world where this debate goes on in such a sad and nonsensical way. we live in one of them. the invasions of Lebanon were another terrible crime by our government and Israel - while I am not a great fan of Hezbollah I was happy to see them drive out the Israelis. we don't need to go on but now I am wondering what your position is on iran?? siding with our criminal government again?
Like those released in August in the first of four stages, all had been given life sentences for attacks that took the lives of Israeli citizens.
Are you denying that the 106 being released are not murderers?
did you read what I wrote? does this sound like a denial to you - I do not know who they are releasing or why? now how about you answering a question - those released - did they take the lives of Israeli soldiers in occupied territory? I do not know and do not care about who was released or why. I do care to know what your deal is - why so fired up here?
I just told you why flip. You have had ample time to look it over. You have links to the same.
no you did not and I do not have ample time. we don't need to continue. i still don't know at all what you think about this whole mess. it sounds like you support the government of Israel wholeheartedly - that would surprise me. my wife is jewish - we rarely talk about Israel because it is painful for her. she has trouble looking at the reality of the violence there. in the same way she has trouble with looking at the violence and flaws of the Obama administration. we can however talk about what an asshole rand paul is!
I gave you enough information to either read on the murderers released, the peace deal and you could have done your own research. You chose not to. That is not my problem. That is yours.
correct but that was not my question - where do you stand on the issue of peace in the middle east. do you stand with the government of Israel? that was my question and yours was do I deny that they were murders - I answered it. not sure why you are being so crabby - simple question - as I said from the beginning I did not mean to annoy you - seems I have - as you say that is not my problem.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/mandela-legislator-arabs-misappropriate-apartheid-/#comment-1015571
You will notice that my stance hasn't changed in two years.
well that is admirable - mine hasn't changed in 30 - so what - as slick willie said to my girl amy "you have been hostile and combative" - ok, well maybe that is a bit overplayed but it seemed like a fun place to go here.
no
if a mod wants to debate what I write
they can do it in the open
[-] 1 points by flip (4062) 4 minutes ago
yes you are ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
Not yet.
[-] 1 points by flip (4055) 11 minutes ago
well that is admirable - mine hasn't changed in 30 - so what - as slick willie said to my girl amy "you have been hostile and combative" - ok, well maybe that is a bit overplayed but it seemed like a fun place to go here. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
No, I haven't.
yes you are
I heard on PBS news that 106 murderers were release for the "peace" negotiations
why would the Palestinians want murderers released ?
the orchestrator is a hack
OK to talk to these people we need killers that they can relate too
release the murderers for peace
er cause we take peace seriously
violence is all those people understand
The problem here is the pretense of these people. There is no whole group operating as one. There is no whole group operating as one in Israel. And, no, violence is not all they understand.
The thing that needs to be understood is that you have two competing political groups: PA and Hamas and they have massive ego problems and both are scamming money and both aren't capable of getting their shit together to make progress. Then you have Palestinians that just want to live life without a bunch of bs. You aren't going to find a unified whole group in Israel either. You have Arab Israelis that get along perfectly fine with Jewish Israelis and Atheist Israelis and then you have these uber right wing Jewish groups.
Identify the problems, resolve the issues.
Because the goal was to kill Israelis. They are regarded as heros.
Had the orchestrator not had the stroke there would have been a withdrawal from the West Bank as well.
Ariel Sharon is a much maligned teddy bear ; Black is White ; War is Peace ; Wrong is Right ; Lies are Truths ; Day is Night & welcome to the world of hasbara [ http://baityehudi.org.il/englp/natali.htm ] sigh :
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2007/06/17/sharons-dream-gaza-as-bantustan/ and
http://www.globalresearch.ca/remembering-the-sabra-and-shatila-massacre/5350020 ;
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/12/the-gazan-state-and-the-west-bank-bantustans.html ;
https://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2012 ;
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/12635-noam-chomsky-my-visit-to-gaza-the-worlds-largest-open-air-prison ;
http://occupywallst.org/forum/mandela-legislator-arabs-misappropriate-apartheid-/#comment-1015304 .
Ever heard of the Hashomer ; the Haganah ; the Palmach ; the Irgun ; the Lehi Underground ; The Stern Gang and what was their raison d'etre & modus operandi ?!!! Shilling for Likud and The Neocons here on this OWS forum is really way off base and topic and will be exposed and opposed !! So much for Xmas !
ipsa scientia potestas est ...
This is what you are arguing against:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8BwqzzqcDs
Doesn't matter what you say, an agenda is an agenda.
That is a disturbing video and here's an equally revealing one where Ted Koppel is left ''paralysed'' by Nelson Mandela :
Given what is said by the Methodist Minister & what the contents of your video are, please further see :
fiat lux ...
Ssshhhh. The adults are talking.
Hmmm & http://jfjfp.com/ !
pax nunc ...
How is it that you intend to aid voting in Jerusalem?
Hmmm & http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/index.html ~*~
amor vincit omnia ...
How is it that you would address those being released from prison and the impact of victims families and should it have been apart of the peace process at all? Further considering that the agreement was a choice between settlements and the release of prisoners, what impact will this choice have in the future?
Hmmm & http://www.nkusa.org/ ~{~
e tenebris, lux ...
How is it that you would address those being released from prison and the impact of victims families and should it have been apart of the peace process at all? Further considering that the agreement was a choice between settlements and the release of prisoners, what impact will this choice have in the future?
Shadz, you're a blithering idiot. You aren't ready.
Hmmm & https://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2012 !!
ad iudicium ...
http://occupywallst.org/forum/mandela-legislator-arabs-misappropriate-apartheid-/#comment-1015571
How is it that you would address those being released from prison and the impact of victims families and should it have been apart of the peace process at all? Further considering that the agreement was a choice between settlements and the release of prisoners, what impact will this choice have in the future?
Ariel Sharon is a much maligned teddy bear ;
Full stop. Are you denying that Ariel Sharon orchestrated the withdrawal from Gaza? Are you denying that Ariel removed the settlements?
When he decided to go through with this, most of us said.....ya, sure, whatever I'll believe it when I see it and did so because of his history. Do you comprehend this?
Is this the "teddy bear" that you would like to cuddle with. How odd.
Ever since I read about this all those years ago, I have despised that fat f..king war monger, Ariel Sharon.
This is where he earned his title, Butcher of Beirut , but it is not the only massacre he presided over.
The forgotten massacre of Women and children in Sabra and Shatila
http://www.human-rights-in-islam.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56:the-forgotten-massacre-of-women-and-children-in-sabra-and-shatila&catid=48:human-rights&Itemid=53
If you need more graphic text and pictures, let me know.
A silly and desperate answer from a silly and desperate person, that actually warrants no engagement or links because it is really so very desperate and silly.
''Truth told with bad intent, beats all The Lies you can invent'' (Wm.Blake, 'Auguries Of Innocence')
verum ex absurdo ...
You got the snooze button...
Imagine the type of person that hits the snooze all morning long... There's your debater.
Hey, I can hit snooze a lot too ... especially on a Sunday, lol. Also fyi :
''Indeed, Israelis among themselves frequently describe the occupation of the West Bank as apartheid, a fact noted by former US President Jimmy Carter among others, but a characterization which is assiduously avoided in the US media.''
multum in parvo ...
zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
You got nothing. Again. How disappointing.
Full stop. Are you denying that Ariel Sharon orchestrated the withdrawal from Gaza? Are you denying that Ariel removed the settlements?
When he decided to go through with this, most of us said.....ya, sure, whatever I'll believe it when I see it and did so because of his history. Do you comprehend this?
We'll let readers decide who has got what here, shall we, lolol ?!!! Sharon did NOT orchestrate shit, that wasn't for reasons of Machiavellian real politik & he did not want to do ANY of the things you 'credit' him with and then when he was convinced to do so - he did the bare minimum and only for Israel's assumed strategic benefit and NOT for any other reason ffs !!
What you and I ''comprehend'' here is irrelevant - neither of us are going to convince the other of anything frankly and only the to and fro ; the balance of probabilities ; the quality of the arguments & the evidence matter here and I am resisting the temptation to utterly undermine your feelings for 'Teddy Bear Sharon' with all the available links for evidence of otherwise !
ad iudicium ...
"Apartheid" is simply the Afrikaans word for segregation, separate, or apart. So, of course it applies in the case of Israel because it matters not where segregation takes place, be it 1930's U.S., South Africa or Israel. Segregation is segregation.
Here is the Oxford English Dictionary definition:
apartheid SECOND EDITION 1989
({schwa}{sm}p{fata}{lm}the{shti}t) [Afrikaans, lit. ‘separateness’, f. Du. apart (ad. F. à part APART adv.) + heid -HOOD.]
"Name given in South Africa to the segregation of the inhabitants of European descent from the non-European (Coloured or mixed, Bantu, Indian, etc.); applied also to any similar movement elsewhere; also, to other forms of racial separation (social, educational, etc.)"
''Mandela Speaking on Palestine'' (Video) :
The international crime of apartheid and the subsequent 'Apartheid Convention' was modelled on - but not limited to, the South African apartheid system. Thanx for your 'terminological exactitude' and see :
http://legal.un.org/avl/ha/cspca/cspca.html ;
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/761C1063530766A7052566A2005B74D1 & finally perhaps
https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%201015/volume-1015-I-14861-English.pdf !
fiat lux ...
By that definition, would this indicate "apartheid" in the UK, or do we need new terms for the new millennium?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017166151
There's definitely a "separation" being used here.
Do you think we treat the hungry any differently here in the U.S.? Seems you like to shed light on the UK quite often. It's interesting that you do that.
Actually, I think the definition of apartheid is far reaching and can be applied to economic situations but mainly apartheid seems to mean physical separateness, so being forced to live within a certain boundary or being forbidden to enter certain spaces. I do, however, think a broader definition is possible.
The bottom line is that both of the "peoples" are considered Semites.
Oh, and please don't put words in my mouth.
I did not say what you accused me of, nor did I accuse you of anything.
I merely asked for clarification of the definition YOU provided.
I point out issues in parts of the World and the US, that more often than not, are ignored by people that claim to live there.
I will not stop doing that on the basis your attempt to insult me and/or insinuate otherwise.
In fact it now begs the question of where do you live?
Oh and what's your definition of the provided "event" in the UK?
Although the article doesn't say, it's my belief that most of those going unfed in the UK are "brown skinned", and that would make it an apartheid action, according to the definition you provided.
This is an anonymous forum. As a moderator you should not be asking me where I live. It's pretty rude and it has absolutely nothing to do with how I think. Where you are from may rule how you think, but quit putting your ideas on me and others.
And, I addressed what you said about the UK. Did you read what I said? I said I think a broader definition of apartheid is possible. And, no, I don't agree with you that the hungry in the UK are the minority population only.
[Removed]
I can ask you whatever I like.
Rude, is you pretending I can't.
Here's the gist of your response to my asking for clarification of your definition.
"Seems you like to shed light on the UK quite often"
More of a baiting accusation, than an actual comment.
Unlike so many here, I'm proud to shed light where ever I can.
Perhaps you're correct in your belief on who's going hungry in the UK, at this point, I'm unable to find definitive information on that.
There are those among us who should already know.
One has to wonder why that information isn't forthcoming.
(EDIT)
Further investigation, would appear to confirm my suspicions.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/dispossessed/in-2012-thousands-of-children-are-starving-on-the-streets-of-london-7621114.html
So, you think you can get away with nuanced insinuations, huh? Interesting. Where I live has nothing to do with anything.
Like I said before. Don't put words in my mouth.
Why did you do that again, instead of responding to what I said?
Truth in fact is, yes where you live might have EVERYTHING to do with it.
Information, as they say, yearns to be free.
You have caged it.
Interesting indeed.
Now about the definition of apartheid and how it applies to the UK?
''I can ask you whatever I like. Rude, is you pretending I can't.'' Do You Really Think That ?!!!
Well okay then, 'as what is sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose' - where shall we start ?!!
How about : What has your link (excellent and recommended, tho' from April'12) got to do with this thread ? OR - Is it a competition as to how poorly the 0.01% Parasite Class treat The 99% in USUK ?! OR perhaps more on topic what do u shooz, think of ''THE LOST OWS NEWS ARTICLE RE. GAZA'' :
Poor & petulant show tho' as per your to & fro here with bw btw but hey, seasons best wishes n' all dat.
vale ...
The ONLY thing I'm arguing here is the use of the word "apartheid".
I still think it's extremely misused in this case.
Sorry that such things have to go on in multiple threads, but that's the way it is around here.
Funny how I got downvoted so far over it, and no one figured that out.
Yeah, I do believe it's fucking rude of people to think that a mod shouldn't have an opinion, and should never ask questions and NEVER argue.
Rude as hell.
I didn't insult anyone, nor even make insinuations.
Unlike you.
Požádali jste telenovelu vrátit vám vaše duše ještě?
Very poor showing from you as well.
Debe ejecutar como el infierno de los imbéciles.
It doesn't have anything to do with what you say. It's all a bunch of idiocy they create to make sure that you don't say anything at all. You're dealing with a couple of pieces of shit.
Distraction, is all they have ever provided.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=dark-money-funds-climate-change-denial-effort
They often talk of community, yet demonstrate a lack of understanding of their own. Then they think they know the World.
They cannot.
Isn't there a forum rule against calling other occupiers pieces of shit? If not, I think there should be. We aren't enough left to start attacking each other that way. Don't you think we should concentrate on what unites us, instead of on our disagreements? How else can we grow our community?
That's right, we will. You got nuttin'.
If you can't stand the heat - stay out in the cold ; leave the kitchen to grown ups and we'll send for you when the cooking is done & go make a snow man now, modelled on your Uncle Ariel .. but make sure that it's laying on its back !!! You've got less than nothing btw !! So go work out how that is the case as you review your Neocon, Likudnik, Naftali Bennet etc. links [ http://baityehudi.org.il/englp/natali.htm ] !
multum in parvo ...
[-] 0 points by shadz66 (15893) 1 minute ago
http://mikopeled.com/ ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
http://occupywallst.org/forum/suspected-terror-attack-on-bat-yam-bus/
Hmmm & http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/ !!!
shalom ; salaam ; pax ; omm shaantii omm
You aren't ready for anything remotely close to critical thinking. Get back to me when you are.
Hmmm & http://mikopeled.com/ !!
pacem in terris - hic et ubique ...
http://occupywallst.org/forum/jerusalems-missing-voters/#comment-1015469
Get back to me when you have the capacity to utilize critical thinking skills.
Hmmm & http://anc.org.za/show.php?id=3384 !!
Lots of my thinking on this matter - ''critical'' or otherwise, can easily be found on your forum-post here :
One just has to peruse that thread, top to bottom to see your abject failure to engage there, as well as your highly revealing right-wing propaganda sources, which spoke volumes too, imo. Are you for real ?!
ad iudicium ..
they should vote publicly with their names
I voted for David Alvarez in the San Diego Mayoral race
That really stinks. The Dems in this country have hundreds of thousands non citizen voters. How can Israel get away with this crap?