Forum Post: Jealousy & class envy - that's what this is all about.
Posted 11 years ago on Oct. 23, 2011, 5:26 p.m. EST by figero
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
No one is holding you back. It takes hard work & determination. No one owes you a living. Get over it.
Are you a miner that spends all your shift, day after day, week after week, underground with a pick in your hands, digging and shovelling? Then you are a hard worker. If you spend your day sitting in an office with air cond. then don't tell anyone that you are a hard worker. Sounds ridiculous. You have no idea what hard work is all about. Before you criticise anyone, spend a day on his shoes.
What you suggest is ownership of ones situation. Yet, we are all born into certain circumstance sans divine intervention (progressive take). So, when one looks to place blame, where shall we look?
Ever since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, and especially since the beginning of the Information Revolution, jobs have been moving from low-skilled jobs like the miner, to high-skilled jobs like the guy who sits in an air-conditioned office. Pretending otherwise isn't going to reverse the trend. Telling us that you value manual labor over intellectual work is not going to reverse the trend.
Doesn't really answer the question. Don't claim that poor people aren't hard workers and that's why they are poor and or unemployed. That is the mantra of the capitalists.
Try to read previous posts..helps eliminate repetitive posts.
I did answer your question about the miner, actually. You can value the manual laborer more than the intellectual worker if you like, but that doesn't affect how society values the two. Society places a lot more value in the intellectual worker. I didn't personally say anything about poor people, you did.
the environmentalist left wants to eliminate all those hard working mining jobs...
Working with your brain is just as hard as working with your hands. It's just a lot harder to find skilled brains than it is to train skilled hands. I can and do work hard, and I can safely say this much. If pay were the same, and we were given opportunity to switch; many of us would rather work with a shovel. The same can not be said for the shoveler staring down the barrel of complex problem solving. It's like saying an ER doctors job is easy because they work inside, but the Janitor who maybe works 40 hours, never on call, never spends personal time doing work, nor spent 10 years and a quarter mil getting there, works so much harder than the doc for one quarter of the pay. Hard work is rewarded in this country. If you haven't experienced that reward, well.........
You spend a day too before you cry for him without him asking you to. Not many people are coal miners, or log cutters, or shrimp fisherman, or oil drillers... but the ones that are? They do it willingly.
It may come as some surprise to you, but some people take pride in working their asses off. For some people it's generational. Hard work is underrated anymore.
I know some miners. You make a good wage and don't need college expenses. Even non union guys might make a few dollars/hr more but 401k instead of pension. Don't knock it until you've tried it
Doesn't really answer the question. Don't claim that poor people aren't hard workers and that's why they are poor and or unemployed. That is the mantra of the capitalists.
Well I don't see it that way. Most people work hard and are happy with their lives and don't want a handout from anyone
Out of the 300m ++ Americans, how many do you know that are happy as they are? Who is asking handouts in any case? Another mantra.
About 50% say they are happy and that's been stable number for decades. Happiest people polled on earth are from Mali
Here are the facts, Republican Economic and Political Policies have destroyed this country and anyone that supports Republicans and their policies are a participant in the destruction of America and the world. This crap has gone on far, far, far too long. Democrat's have put in place programs that have protected young and especially the elderly and Republicans are always trying to find a way to dissolve these very helpful programs that keep people alive. If Republicans got their way, many more of us would be dead.
The Occupy Wall St. movement should be in DC and primarily geared toward the Republican Congress, the people truly responsible for the destruction of America. Here is a history of economic disasters, intentionally and repeatedly caused by Republican Economic and Political Policies and Republican politicians who protect Wall St Execs and Corporate criminals.
1 - Recession of 2008 George W. Bush (R) Greatest downturn since 1929, blamed on lack of regulation of financial markets and collapse of credit markets.
2 - Recession of 2001 George W. Bush (R) Began in April of 2001, marked the beginning of greatest deficit spending in all of recorded human history.
3 - Recession of 1990-1991 George H.W. Bush (R) Deregulation of Savings and Loan industry.
4 - Recession of 1981-1982 Ronald Reagan (R) Massive deficit spending/deregulation of markets.
5 - Recession of 1973-1975 Richard M Nixon (R) OPEC's increase in oil prices and massive spending in the escalation of war in Vietnam led to stagflation, the second economic crash of Nixon's administration.
6 - Recession of 1969-1970 Richard M. Nixon (R) Credited to Nixon's escalation of and massive spending.
7 - Recession of 1960 -1961 Dwight D. Eisenhower (R) Noted for high unemployment, low GDP, high inflation. JFK ended the recession by stimulating the economy 10 days after taking office.
8 - Recession of 1957-1958 Dwight D. Eisenhower (R) Eisenhower achieved the dubious distinction of achieving a second economic downturn on his watch, a record later matched by Richard M. Nixon, and George W. Bush.
9 - Recession of 1953 Dwight D. Eisenhower (R) Increased outlays to National defense and restrictive credit policies blamed for this downturn.
10 - The Great Depression of 1929 Herbert Hoover (R) Lasted for 10 years- Blamed on Hoover's economic policy and lack of regulation of financial markets.
The facts are abundantly clear Figaro, Democrat's want to serve the people, Republicans want to destroy the people. The solutions are so simple, serve the people, that's it........
The democrats are also to blame. Pres Clinton participated in deregulation of banks and telecom. He and Barney Frank pressured Freddie and Fannie to make mortgages available to folks who could not afford them. To blame this economic mess on one party is just more of the same partisan bickering that is ruining the country.
This entire movement is about serving the people, that is it, period. Over 70 years republicans have slowly destroyed the fabric of this country with their sick and twisted ideologies. History, the facts are very clear. Here are the facts, Republican Economic and Political Policies have destroyed this country and anyone that supports Republicans and their policies are a participant in the destruction of America and the world. This crap has gone on far, far, far too long. Democrat's have put in place programs that have protected young and especially the elderly and Republicans are always trying to find a way to dissolve these very helpful programs that keep people alive. If Republicans got their way, many more of us would be dead. That's a FACT.
Anyone who thinks their view of the world "is fact", they are part of the problem. The two extremes, left and right, are ruining the country and since you speak "the facts" you are part of the problem.
Billny, Your view of the world forgot to mention president Carter who drove the economy into as big a ditch as we have today. Taxes were high, interest rates were in the high teens and Americans were held hostaget. Under Clinton we had the dot com crash, Enron, which the SEC turned a blind eye to under Clinton. There is blame on both to blame for the last 25 years that got us to where we are.
Your information is no doubt mis-information, typical republican response, no doubt found on a reich wing forum. Fact, 10 Recessions under Republican Administrations. 80 years of destruction. Creators and prime contributors to the 1%. Steal from the poor and give to the rich. Slow and utter suffering and destruction of the 99%. This fight is about taking back what belongs to the people, most of all, shut down the Racist Reich wing propaganda machine.
I am not a republican and your picture showing our first Black President as a puppet or monster created by Bush is a racist picture. Obama is his own person. You like to label people and bark liberal slogans at them. Unbelievable.
I think you have posted a reply that does not refer to my response, doesn't make sense. WHAT PICTURE? I see only 1 party causing damage to our country, THE RACIST REICH WING and its many supporters.....It's common knowledge. Your postings give the impression that you're a right wing supporter, or you don't know who to support. In my field the facts (the truth) are what wins fights. Most of the country will agree and approve of these facts, the Dems are working hard to help families, help the people. For starters, finally bringing our troops home from a war that the Reich wing started on a lie. For a second time providing relief for home owners whos homes are worth less than what they bought them for, and now our fine President has no choice but to declare executive orders to put people back to work. At the same time the Racist Reich Wing is working hard and going far far out of their way to block every move Obama makes, to hurt the people as much as they possibly can. I see only 1 party causing damage to our country, THE RACIST REICH WING and its many supporters..... Always remember, 10 Recessions under Republican Administrations. 80 years of destruction. Creators and prime contributors to the 1%. As long as Republicans are in power this country will never prosper and never move forward.
Your view of history is so partisan it is distorted. I try to look at history as an American. Their is no question President Reagan and President Clinton governed at times of economic expansion. The cooperation Reagan had with Tip O'Neill and Clinton had with the republican congress (Newt was one) were reasons that they were able to compromise and move the country forward. You are a one party person who believes only democrats have the answer. Well that is not true. You and I will never agree that is certain.
Of course all these politicians are somewhat responsible but what I am currently seeing is Democrats trying to provide solutions that seem to be positive progress forward and Republicans pulling the country backwards into a deeper recession all to spite Obama. Typical actions of the Racist Reich Wing. Remember this quote "The single most important thing is for Obama to be a one-term president" Words of Republican Senator Mitch McConnell and the worse thing is all Republicans are on board with this. So all I see at this very moment is the same crap that has been going on for over 80 years, Republicans in control and decimating and intentionally destroying the country and the people and Democrats trying really hard to provide for the people and progress forward. These are the facts.... I am for anyone trying their hardest to help and provide for the people, right now that is the DEMS......
Spend 7.5 years working hard, building a solid reputation, increasing the standard of performance, and then pow, lose your job when the Fortune 500 company you work for loses a couple of billion dollars to a bunch of loan sharks and market manipulators masquerading as bankers. Nothing personal, no one owes you a living, or hell, even severance pay.
Thanks for playing, and good luck ... in some other town.
We're not holding anyone back, we're just oblivious to the idea of karma, and don't believe in this old Greek thing about justice. Just the bottom line. Life in the shark tank, it's what the founding fathers fought for.
Anti-social darwinism. Fun philosophy. Good luck with that.
Why must trolls try to deflect attention from the real issue: massive corruption and fraud in our political and financial system--with irrelevant talk of the work ethic?
Yes, it takes hard work and determination. No, no one owes you a living. So what?
Let's talk about naked short selling, rating agency fraud and crooked lobbyists.
Greed is good, but not jealousy. Isn't it the same thing?
If there is anybody left on this Site who want to affect Real Change read this http://algoxy.com/ows/strategyofamerica.html We can genuinely do this people this IS possible we need to spread this message and let people know we HAVE some Legal options available to us NOW
Thats true pal! But the system is corrupt and evil has infected the whole process!
It's not about hard work and determination. Working hard doesn't really mean squat. It's what you accomplish through your work that has meaning. That's why we as a society give greater rewards to scientists who create life saving drugs than we do ditch diggers. It's way more likely you're going to find someone capable of wielding a shovel than discovering cures for cancer.
You've got to have a skill that is marketable. Just going out there and saying you'll work hard doesn't really cut it, unless you want to dig ditches for minimum wage. Work smart, not hard, and you'll do all right.
Lots of people do word hard and have tons of determination, and still can't find a job, or are working tons of overtime at minimum wage jobs and still can't cover their basic cost of living, much less a college education, unless they want to go into debt (which is the choice a lot of people make, and end up still not finding more than a minimum-wage job). Everyone makes a big deal over the American Dream, that if you work hard you can have your house with its white picket fence. But those rags-to-riches stories are the exception that proves the rule. Hard work and determination CAN net you a happy life... about 1% of the time. For the rest of us, it results in despair, constant stress and worry, poor health, inability to get medical care, and death with only medical debt to pass on to loved ones. In the last 20 years, the lower class has grown, the middle class has shrunk, and the upper class has gotten richer. This has been proven in more than one economical study. The result is that our country is nearly bankrupt, medical costs are through the roof, and our recession has caused a global economic recession. These things are FACTS. If you refuse to acknowledge them, you're the one fighting the 1%'s battles for them instead of your own!
no, this is about social economic injustice, this is about the simple fact that our government is a corporate oligarchy, and its about the simple fact that the game is rigged, so hard work and determination won't usually amount to squat.
you don't know what you are talking about. obvious troll is obvious.
I don't really think it has anything to do with class envy. What about hard working people who work 3 jobs just to get by for their family? It's hard and still prices are inflating while our dollar is losing vale, so no, it has nothing to do with envy but straight up facts.
you need better skills to do things other people cant do. thats how you get higher pay, Not by force
Well think of it this way....I know a few people who have graduated and have degrees and can't find a job in that field so they find themselves doing something completely different. It has to do with the job market and economy.
true - but if you keep at it - you will get something.
And the difference is.....? Even you find difficulty to differentiate: "" Miners so hard work through hard labor. "".And you, like him, prefer to divert from the question which was ARE YOU A MINER?? The answer is YES, NO or maybe.
you need to work smart not hard. It's a matter of supply & demand. I was a Union Carpenter before I became a Banker.
Dodging the question.
what is the question?
LOL it's funny how many of the folks opposing what OWS is doing assume they know nothing about hard work and determination. Polls have shown they are employed at rates in line with the national average. Not to mention that fighting for what you believe in takes hard work and determination, and OWS folks to my eyes have shown an abundance of both.
So what did you do to cause your home value drop? What did you do to cause the decline in the US dollar? What did you do to cause the company you work for go bankrupt? What did you do to encourage our government to cover the losses of banks and Wall Street due to greed and corruption? What did you do to encourage lobbyist to take your voice away? You are right figero, no one owns anyone a living....but this is not even about that. This is about giving the government back to its people.
so take it back - lobby your rep and throw them out tea party style
Well said fig...and I agree with you. But to do this Americans need to wake up and educate themselves and stop drinking the cool aid. To me, this is what OWS does. It brings awareness and foster discussion which in effect will lead to action.
Nothing to do with class envy has everything to do with that fact i am PISSED. I am pissed about not being given the chance to work hard because the 1% are SITTING on enough money to employe me and every single person on this forum for the rest of our lives. I am PISSED because the money they are sitting on has partially come from tax cuts that they never needed in the first place, and was supposed to go toward creating jobs.
and they are sitting on the money why?
Because there was no regulations in place when they got the tax cuts forcing them to hire so they are keeping it in there grubby little hands until they can find a way of making more money off it. The tax cuts or so they claim were given in good faith that these people would use it to hire people...they haven't. If they had we would have less unemployment which would lead to a larger circulation and higher demand for goods resulting in a better economy.
what is the Dodd Frank law ?
Keynesian failure demand side economics. tell me where that has worked in history
It doesn't take hard work anymore. Hard work is for suckers. I just manage my and my client's money, watch the short-term and medium term market trends, jump on a trend for a few minutes, put in a stop and, poof, I just made a 1% return on his $500,000. I take my cut and hit the bars. I'm doing God's work.
Wrong. This is not about jealousy and class envy. This is about fairness. It is about companies with huge profits paying their employees a living wage to represent their fair share of their labor productivity. Insinuating that poor people don't work hard and don't have determination is arrogant and condescending. Be careful about thinking you are better than anyone else.
fair - define fair
The average CEO today earns 343 times the wage of the average worker. Twenty/thirty years ago it was about 40 times the wage of the average worker. Greed has taken over. The income of the top 1% has risen enormously in the past decade while the average worker's wage has decreased by 7%. 1 in 7 Americans are on food stamps (many of these are working Americans whose wages are so low that they qualify for food stamps). I think that anyone who works at a job full-time should earn a living wage to pay for the basic things needed to live in this great country. Also, many American workers who have jobs live below the poverty line. 22% of American children live in poverty and 40% of African American children live in poverty. Surely, we can do better than that. I mean, I could go on and on but I'm tired and I'm getting punchy. How about higher education? How about some fairness there? The average private school costs $35,000 per year!
so you want equality. so the more I make and increase the divide between between myself and the general population, you expect me to fork over even more than 35% to reduce the divide. why? what does my activity have to do with the activity or lack there of of everybody else? rediculous.
Nope. I don't want equality. I want fairness. The 1% can make as much money as they want as long as those at the bottom earn a living wage. That's it.
It is wrong to say that low wage workers lack "activity." That is so arrogant. They work as hard, and in most cases, much harder, than executives. They should at least earn enough money to not qualify for food stamps. How can you argue against that?
fair (dictionary definition)
I work as a physician. I cannot get over the injustice of healthcare access, economic access, and education.
healthcare is not a right
Damn right it is!!!
what else is a right? Is it a right to have a car? Where in the constitution does it say that healthcare is a right? If the government provides healthcare and then denies you a medical procedure becaue you are too old is the government denying you your rights? Access to a waiting list is not healthcare
Let him Die!
Better not to pay for healthcare for the poor, then wait until they get really sick, THEN pay for the super expensive treatments for their advanced diseases? Thinking like yours will keep you in the back office of a bank!
LOL! I am thrilled to be were I am. Thank you .
You are hard working AND complacent at the same time? Interesting mix...
What do you Figaro?
I work in a bank - back office - client service very modest salary
... This again. Look you're missing the point. There is currently unhealthy concentration of power and money in american society (a trend that is also present around much of the world, and in the global corporate landscape). That's bad for the economy, it's bad for the free market, it's bad for social mobility (which is, regardless of all the wishful thinking, steadily going down), it's bad for social peace.
And beyond all that it's painfully obvious that the current economic model, and/or the current economic leaders, are not doing their fucking job and need some serious fixing. It's doesn't even have to be a question of justice, or morality, or civic responsibility : the financial institutions and their leaders messed up bad. Our political leaders, through collusion or incompetence allowed us to be in a position where that failure could bring us all down. And nothing has changed. Nothing has happened to punish those who put us in this mess. Nothing has happened to prevent it from happening again. Nothing has happened to prevent those responsible from profiting and the rest from suffering. And, unsurprisingly, but sooner than might have been expected, thanks to the situation in Europe, the same thing is looking to happen again.
It's nice and all to patronize those less fortunate about responsibility, but traditionally, the ones with power and money were those who needed that virtue the most, and right now, they haven't shown a hint of it. Those people in the streets though? Yea, they're the ones finally taking responsibility for our future, and you should be thankful they picked up a burden you can't or won't carry.
I dont know - it just doesnt seem that difficult to me to make a middle class life for myself & my family. I dont waste my time protesting in the park. Time is better spent bettering yourself and lookinf for a job. Some guy said "I'm not leaving the park until I get a job". Really? How does that work lol!
The problem isn't about poor people wanting a handout. That is the cop out that conservatives use to shoot down progressives without adding any substance to the conversation. It's a conversation ender like telling a child "Because I said so."
The Issue is that the wealthy have used their wealth to generate more wealth without any concern for where that wealth comes from, or any ethical consideration of the means with which they attain that wealth. If I have enough money to buy, say a television network, than I have the power to influence what people think and can sell them on ideas that are perhaps not in their own best interest. This can be made analogous to a brokerage account manager, or really anyone who can afford to blanket congress with lobbyists.
People are not asking for a hand out from the rich. People are asking the rich to stop lying to and steeling from them. If you want to cry class warfare than I say, "Bring it on". The class war has been going on for decades and we, the people have been loosing. It's about time we fight back instead of sitting by hoping to win the figurative lottery.
I dont know - I dont concern myself with what other people have or how much of it they have. Good for them. I think about How I can make my life better. No one is holding me back except the tax man.
Right. So if "you don't concern yourself with what other people have, etc..", but "no one is holding you back except the tax man", then why are you not backing a group of people who are trying get the governing body currently ruling the masses to make the super rich pay more in taxes??!!! Wouldn't it be great to live in a world where multi-billion dollar corporations at the very least paid for the environmental destruction they wrecked on the people of the world? If the super rich don't want to pay taxes on their exorbitant incomes then I suggest they go live on another continent, like China or how about Dubai.
You mean companies like General Electric?
Just a bunch of envious crybabies blaming the world for the choices they made. Actually the fact that the rich have gotten richer" over the past 40 years should be celebrated. It meansour opportunitiess are endless. But I guess that job at WAWA makes one deserve the "high life".
another appeal to the wealthy
Nobody owes them a corporation either
I work very hard. You don't know what I do. Troll quit insulting people you don't know
Any work should pay here and everywhere - a (hu)man working 8 hours a day 5 days a week has the right to be well paid. And please stop talking about these millionaires - billionaires - they are the only group on this planet who earns a lot without moving a hand - e.g at an interest rate of 1% a billionaire would earn just about 20 $ a minute even when he sleeps - with my work I earn just 1/100 of that amount - of course by work and only if I work - and I am already well paid. I don't want to know how bad the relation is compared to some poor workers.
Do you really think its okay that corporations shovel money to politicians who shovel YOUR tax dollars right back at them?
If this movement is going to accomplish anything, changing the Constitution to keep money out of politics has to be the first step.
This link details the process of amending the US Constitution
Here is one example of the proposed language.
"" If this movement is going to accomplish anything, changing the Constitution to keep money out of politics has to be the first step. ""
Yes, 100% my support. For me it is kind of the only one we need now. All the other things will fall into place soon after the public (the 99%er's) controls the political parties and the politicians.
why do we vote for the politician with the most money? Who's fault is that?
Why do people smoke until they get cancer? ADVERTISING is the secret. We are all humans and the majority very gullible.
no - self control. again blaming anything other than yourself now it's advertisings fault lol!
Really? Considering that advertising is a form of propaganda, do you think that self-control can fight off the onslaught of mass propaganda the average US citizen is exposed to daily???
Because the guy with the most money can pay for a more effective organization, package the best message, and tell everyone that the other guy will eat your children. At no point can a third party candidate compete with all that corporate money. That's why OWS needs to exist. To help us level the playing field so a real republic can function.
and we fall for it every time.
and who's fault is that? if we vote for the one with the most money - we deserve what we get.
You all should read the book Freakanomics. He does a study showing that the candidate who gets the most money gets it because he/she is the most popular, and therefore wins the election. So the money doesn't really win the election. That person was the most popular anyway.
What about the third party and indy candidates who can't get off the ground because of the tons of cash being thrown at the major parties?
BTW, Freakonomics is awesome
No one is asking for a handout
This is spot on.
I show up to work sometimes, therefore I deserve a million bucks. Thanks Jerk, Obama is the greatest man that ever lived, he was a community ogranizer now he is the president. He has done more for people than the evil capitalist Jefferson ever did.
hahahahah! wow! you just blew my mind !