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Forum Post: Jacque Fresco talking at the Occupy Miami movement

Posted 8 years ago on Nov. 28, 2011, 9:37 p.m. EST by blackpanther6389 (39) from Peoria, IL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

This man and his research is, in my opinion, the greatest single hope for humanity. He provides a solution. And you can hear him speak to better understand what I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=g5g449WbFcU

72 Comments

72 Comments


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[-] 3 points by rbe (687) 8 years ago

Good stuff! He has really the only answers that I can find.

[-] 2 points by pygmalion (24) 8 years ago

Please visit this video/site 2 bcome more familiar with the idea of a Resource Based Economy. It's difficult 2 explain something so new/radical in a few minutes. But at 63, if i can wrap my head around these ideas, this generation certainly shud b able 2 do the same. Think of it this way, this generation is the one who can possibly get to say "take this job & shove it" http://www.unitinghumans.com/2011/11/occupy-miami-invited-jacque-to-speak.html

[-] 2 points by richardkentgates (3269) 8 years ago

as most of us can by now, he points out the problems. nowhere in his material or video does he or anyone elaborate on how a "resource based economy" would work. he is asked the question and then the discussion moves right along without skipping a beat yet the question is never answered. this is the case every time a "resource based economy" is brought up.

[-] 4 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 8 years ago

Exactly. They've got the idea, the dream but no actual solution. Like I told a zeitgeister about a month ago, if they would get a small self-sufficient community going and then run it for five or ten years to work out the bugs or see if it's actually viable, it would go a long way toward gaining much needed credibility and support. Fresco hasn't been able to do that and he's been at it for forty years.

[-] 3 points by genanmer (822) 8 years ago

He wants a major motion picture for some reason. (I think it's primarily so he can then collect more funds to create a test city/amusement park)

I'm just surprised no big investors have come around in the decades they've been attempting to get this project off the ground.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 8 years ago

A motion picture certainly has the potential to generate millions in profits. There's enough fans and believers out there. And it might be the only way he can generate the needed cash. No one's going to invest because they'll be no profit generated, it would be a resource based community after all. Although there could be ways to get the equivalent of your money back, possibly through some of the generated resources or maybe licensing of some aspects of the new society, new processes or inventions for example.

[-] 2 points by genanmer (822) 8 years ago

I thought licensing and patenting were things they wanted to avoid as Jacque claims he was burnt when people claimed patents on his inventions.

Regardless the most important thing needed is to spread the idea and get people involved. Only then can we begin testing how feasible the different aspects and ideas of a resource based economy really are.

[-] 0 points by Frizzle (520) 8 years ago

His idea's are great. But the man himself is pretty old and doesn't quite live in current days anymore imo. Things like open source and creative commons are something he has a hard time grasping. He also doesn't listen very well and is stuck on repeating the same rethoric.

Still, that doesn't change that a resource based economie is a solid logical idea.

[-] 2 points by richardkentgates (3269) 8 years ago

forty years is a long time to work that out. entire countries have risen and fallen in less time.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 8 years ago

And many more will rise and fall before he gets off his ass and actually does something besides talk a good game. What do you expect though. Most his supporters grew up watching movies with cool-looking futuristic cities and robots. Some of those robots were pretty hot though, I wish he'd hurry up. ;-)

[-] 1 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

This is a global idea, it takes the major to agree. Period. If you want to see it happen, get up off your own ass and spread the word.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 8 years ago

Astro Boy!

[-] 1 points by blackpanther6389 (39) from Peoria, IL 8 years ago

Why do you think that he doesn't actually have a plan to do this? As far as I can tell, he needs resources and while we're still in the monetary system, you also need money. He didn't just erect those structures he's living in now out of thin air, it took funds and right now to build an experimental city on a realistic scale would take much more money than it did for him to build the structures that he has built right now. Is that understandable? Who's gonna put up the funds to do this besides the general public? Noone with the means to actually fund a city knows about Jacque Fresco to get something like this started.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 8 years ago

It wouldn't take a city and it certainly wouldn't need a brand new futuristic city like in some of his videos. The prototype, which is what it would be, could be done in any existing conventional community, a small town for example. The concepts behind a resource based economy could be worked out on a much smaller scale. Personally I think he's full of shit and I'll tell you why. I had an ongoing conversation with a guy on this forum a few weeks ago that offered Fresco help to develop his ideas. The guy had good credentials, an engineering degree, an ongoing manufacturing business, etc. He went to Fresco with open arms and open mind. This guy had viable ideas. Fresco just blew him off. He didn't want to hear any input from anyone at the meetings. Fresco acted like he knew all the answers and everyone else was full of shit. Definitely not an open mind. Fresco said himself, and I quote, 'Never give people the right to their own opinion.' What an arrogant prick. I stand by my statement; forty years and all he has are a bunch of cool little models and some well-done videos. Quit fucking around Fresco and get it going and people will take you seriously!

[-] 0 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

You don't have to like Fresco or anybody else. This is not about liking the person behind the ideas; it's about the ideas themselves. All you have to agree to is that: ALL human beings need clean air, water, food, a relevant education, and the necessities of life. The resources of life. Instead of a monetary world economy, we need a Resource-Based World economy in which all goods and services are available WITHOUT the use of money, credits, barter or any other system of debt or servitude (terminating all forms of manipulation and control). All resources become the common heritage of all the Earth's people, thus eventually outgrowing the need for the artificial boundaries that separate people. This is the unifying imperative. THAT'S IT! Hate Jacque and think he is full of shit all you want, it's the idea that will take over, not Jacque.

As for the opinion statement, he does have a valid point there, read more here: Why is Everybody NOT Entitled their own Opinion when it comes to Arriving at Decisions? http://www.unitinghumans.com/2011/10/why-is-everybody-not-entitled-their-own.html

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 8 years ago

If it's such a great idea how come, like I said above, he hasn't even got it off the ground in decades. And the engineer that spoke with him had knowledge, skills, and resources, not opinions. Is Fresco a trained engineer by any chance? I don't know, but Fresco blew him off. That's his problem; he has ALL the facts, everybody else has 'opinions.' And the thinking that no one is entitled to their own opinion is bogus. For example, there can be two equally viable ways of accomplishing a certain task. You want to do it your way, I want to do it mine. Both are equally good. Are they not opinions? Whose should win out? Why? By the way, those examples used in your link are faulty reasoning. Prisons are built to make a PROFIT, not to 'rehabilitate.' And laws aren't created because of opinions, they're created for a fact. They're passed for someone to make a profit, for control over someone or some thing, and other reasons. Not because of 'opinions.'

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 8 years ago

He refused the help of your friend and didn't test his own ideas for a very simple reason. Utopia only exists on paper; in theory. If put to the test, it would become clear RBE has problems like any other system. It might be great, good, or bad, but it won't be perfect.

I see a red flag when people talk about someone's untested theory as if it were the magic solution. I see a red flag when a theory said to be near perfect is not even being discussed in economic peer-reviewed journals. I see a red flag when a purported to be strong theory has few serious critics. If this was the next big thing, economic scholars would be taking and writing notes. They mostly ignore the theory, much like egyptologists ignore the idea that the pyramid of Giza is a large battery.

On a good note, he did turn our attention towards ecology and consumption. He's the Donatello of economy. A zillion ideas mostly untested.

[-] 0 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

"The system I advocate A Resource Based World Economy is not perfect! It’s just A LOT better than what we have, we can NEVER achieve perfection!" ~Jacque Fresco

Why can't you put 400 passengers in 200 passenger airliner? You don't have to do it to know that it will not get up off the ground. You have to know what the horse-power of the engines are, the wing area, the capacity for carrying the lift. It can't take off with 400 passengers, you don't have to build it to find out. You know enough about the sciences, technology and the methods of evaluation to anticipate. When you put 2,000 passengers on a cruse, that right there will tell you how much of what is needed, how much food, etc is needed to make the journey It's already known, you don't have to do it, you have to have a basis for your assumptions." ~Jacque Fresco

The Differences Between the New World Order Agenda and The Venus Project (offering a Resource-Based World Economy) ~ KNOW YOUR FACTS - http://www.unitinghumans.com/2011/10/differences-between-new-world-order.html

[-] 1 points by Glaucon (296) 8 years ago

"Why can't you put 400 passengers in 200 passenger airliner? You don't have to do it to know that it will not get up off the ground. You have to know what the horse-power of the engines are, the wing area, the capacity for carrying the lift. It can't take off with 400 passengers, you don't have to build it to find out. You know enough about the sciences, technology and the methods of evaluation to anticipate."

This is a very bad example. Before we reached the possibility of putting 400 passengers in an airliner a million and one tests were done in practice starting from the first flights of the Wright Brothers. There must be an interplay between theory and practice in these sort of things. Jacque Fresco's theory is asking for a complete change on the way our world is run. It's like dreaming for that 400 passengers airliner before the first Wright Brothers flight even took place. It's great and the theory is interesting. But, instead of talking about it now, it's time you start testing it on a small scale.

[-] 0 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

Jacque's solutions came from 70 years of evaluations based on scientific methods to arriving at solutions. Test after test, experiment after experiment; that's what most his whole life consists of.

[-] 1 points by Glaucon (296) 8 years ago

Where are the tests? Which village or mini-society uses his RBE system? Are they still around? If not, it's most likely because it failed. Jacque Fresco has 70 years behind him, but still, no economic theorists are taking a serious interest in his work. Why?

[-] 0 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

Without all the ideas around a RBE (the sustainable ideas) and just taking the RBE framework: It can be said to happen everyday with your children, friends, family, loved ones, etc... ones we call in "our circle".

In other words, when your child asks for a bowl of cereal, you don't charge her for that. You make sure you have the available resources: a bowl, spoon, cereal, and milk and if you have it then you pour him a bowl.

Likewise when your friend needs help moving, you don't charge him. You make sure you have the available resources; in this case "your time". There is no middle man dealings. The only question is "do you have the resources?". The RBE already works in everyday life in limited pockets of people we call "loved ones".

Economics are based on the knowledge we are taught in this monetary system to keep this establishment in place. Don't let the words "Resource Based World ECONOMY" fool you, it is not based on any monetary or knowledge taught by the monetary system.

An economy that produces junk that is designed to break down overtime shortly after the warranty expires, just so people will buy another (since it is actually cheaper to buy new than to replace the damaged part: purposefully also by design) and all these unethical actions just to keep the economy going; is not the definition of a true economy. It is actually an anti-economy since it produces non-recycleable products destroying the planet and ripping it of limited resources. Instead we need a true economy with global abundance and effective sustainability which is what a resource based economy is offering.

[-] 1 points by Glaucon (296) 8 years ago

If it's already part of our system, then it should be very easy to test it in a village. Do that. Start testing and stop talking. This theory needs to be put to the test. Period. Or else, it just remains a pipe dream. If you need to implement it worldwide or nothing, then the theory has no use.

Show us. Get all the RBE fanatics together and build your village around this economy.

[-] 0 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

This is not about if it will work or not, this is about if people values are ready for it. If people are ready, we will make it work through trail and error, evolving it until it works.

Good luck with getting over a billion dollars for a test city. We are not needing that step yet. What is needed is education and spreading the word.

Yes actions are equally important but actions are motivated by education. Once one is educated they have no choice but to act based on that value system and that programming. Actions are in direct link with values and values are in direct link with our conditioning (learning/ education). So actions are not something we do but something we arrive at once educated. The education is the action. It's all linked, not separate. One who is extremely educated has no choice but to act based on that value system. when the action arises that we can take a step further and start building, we will arrive at that and it will obvious.

Jacque's solution to this is education through a major motion film. They need 100,000 and they have 65,000 More infor can be found here: http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/get-involved/major-motion-picture-donations

It will be an extremely entertaining and educating film for all ages and all people across the world. You can find more information about it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNWId7rGQ2U&feature=related I have more information on it but it's scattered at the moment.

[-] 1 points by Glaucon (296) 8 years ago

He's been talking about it for decades, but no tests were done. This is not a good sign at all.

[-] -1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 8 years ago

I see red flags too. You probably caught that higher up the thread. I've had a dozen conversations with the pro-RBE crowd over the last month and every time I start pointing out flaws or red flags with his ideas, they tend to get a bit defensive. I told myself I wasn't going to do it anymore and yet here I am on another RBE thread. sigh It probably didn't help his cause much when he ripped off his original investors back in the '70's either. He is a very intelligent guy, I'll give him that.

[-] 2 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

I love questions, it helps me articulate it better, please ask all you want. I just don't like when people are not asking anything, just making insults and not interested in learning something new; just want to criticize. It is rare to meet someone who has genuine questions and wants knowledge on the subject. So thank you.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 8 years ago

At this point, talking about RBE is just useless. It's time the theory gets tested on a small scale. It's nice and dandy to talk about the theory of a new diving suit, but there comes a day when you just have to dive in the water.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 8 years ago

Well put. That's what I've been trying to tell them. They don't need to build a super-city from scratch, start with a conventionally constructed small community as a prototype and work out the details. Fresco's been dreaming of his circular semi-automated city since the '60's and hasn't moved forward much at all. You bring up a very good point earlier; if the academics aren't paying much attention, that speaks volumes (no pun intended).

[-] 0 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

Fresco likely blew him off because Fresco can't do anything until the majority agree this is what they want. Obviously, what can be done if an global idea is not globally accepted? If and when a resource based economy is accepted then the idea will be implemented. It really has nothing to do with Jacque as a person. It's the ideas.

The person who should win out is the person trained and skilled and can be able to present facts to prove they are not stating beliefs or opinions. You must have verifiable evidence that what you claim is not just an opinion or belief for a selected few or group. With the scientific method everything is based on facts and everything can be proven and can be reconstructed by anybody.

I agree prisons are profit, not opinion. Obvious laws are designed for profit too. Not sure what article you read, but the above link had nothing to do with prisons or law so not sure where you are pulling that from BUT I agree.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 8 years ago

The prisons and laws were examples used in your link about why people aren't entitled to their own opinions. Read it again, you'll catch it. And you still kind of dodged around my question. If there are two EQUALLY VIABLE options, whose option wins out and why.

[-] 0 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

Sorry, my bad, it is late here.

It is obvious that jails are designed to make profit. What this is touching on is how everyone lets it happen because they are ignorant to the fact causes human behavior. Most would agree that we need jails and prisons.

I am not dodging your question. If I don't answer it, then I can reform the words and try to address it better with examples that might resonate more with your background and understanding.

Opinions are opinions. There is no such thing as an equal option. All options are equally worthless. Facts however are provable, tangible substances that can measured with the tools of the scientific method and technology. Everything in this world that can be considered a problem for humanity has a physical reference and therefore has a technical solution.

When one is not focused on tangible substance than there is no system that can test "evidence" out (and opinions are born). Evidence is always tangible substances that matter. Not some abstract idea about how the universe works or speculation about blackholes and all this nonsense. Yet, when it comes to what actually matters it is always about solutions to physical real life problems. How do stop earthquakes from killing people? How do we build a earthquake proof building? How do we design cars that don't hit each other? How do we stop vehicles from slipping on the highway when the road is icy? How do we create the most effective design using the least amount of energy? How do we conserve energy and still provide all the functionally we need? Or other things that matter less but could help, like: How do we build a computer that turns on like a television without waiting for it to load?

All these things can be tested because it is dealing with the physical problems of life. If there is no way to test it and there is no way to provide evidence for what someone is claiming, then what problem is trying to be solved? Opinions are not needed when it comes to the problems in life. Conflict is solved by always having a physical reference and therefore a testable method to what you are claiming.

Whatever else people decide to do based on similar beliefs, opinions, and ideas; they are welcome. There is no control. There is just a understanding that all opinions can be tested and if they can't then what problem is trying to be solved?

Using this format to arrive at decisions each individual would have more control of their life than they can ever imagine possible because there are no limitations holding you back from being you. No money limits, no border limits, no purchasing power limits. no limits on health care, free education, no limits to the resources of life, etc.. since all goods and services are available without the use of money, credits, barter or any other system of debt or servitude (terminating all forms of manipulation and control). You lead your own life without restrictions on the manner it is lived; this is what true freedom is all about.

[-] 1 points by Glaucon (296) 8 years ago

If the idea cannot be implemented gradually, then the idea is flawed. It's impossible for the current economical system to be changed to RBE overnight. That would cause absolute havoc. It's time to test his theory on a small scale like a village. If this is useless, if his theory cannot scale gradually, then we must abandon it and find one that can.

[-] 0 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

Science has discovered that all social changes happen due to 10% of the world's population united in a common purpose (that's 700 million).

However, even that data is not completely accurate since it's looking at it from a point of the complete implementation of social change. All that is really needed is a tipping point. Meaning, a point in social values that proceed to a guaranteed social change overtime.

For example, I am not sure how many people support the Occupy Movement at the moment, but it certainly is not 700 million yet, however, they have reached a tipping point. Meaning they reached a point where the potential of the movement can only grow. There is no other option for it since it reached a point of no return in its momentum.

This is all we need for a Resource Based Economy too, a tipping point. This is not about if it will work or not, this is about if people values are ready for it. If people are ready, we will make it work through trail and error, evolving it until it works.

Keep in mind also that more than 2.8 billion people, close to half the world's population, live on less than the equivalent of $2/day. This also ties into the fact that only a small percentage of the world's population is needed for social change.

[-] 1 points by Glaucon (296) 8 years ago

"Meaning they reached a point where the potential of the movement can only grow. "

Yet, it fades as we speak.

Why don't all the RBE people get together and start a village using this system. Show us. The proof is in the pudding. Right now, all you have is a utopian theory. You're not the first. Such political and economic theories have been prevalent since the beginning of time.

[-] 0 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

Right now there are said to be 50 million people who support this without what you call "proof".

As I said above "This is not about if it will work or not, this is about if people values are ready for it. If people are ready, we will make it work through trail and error, evolving it until it works.

Good luck with getting over a billion dollars for a test city. We are not needing that step yet. What is needed is education and spreading the word.

Yes actions are equally important but actions are motivated by education. Once one is educated they have no choice but to act based on that value system and that programming. Actions are in direct link with values and values are in direct link with our conditioning (learning/ education). So actions are not something we do but something we arrive at once educated. The education is the action. It's all linked, not separate. One who is extremely educated has no choice but to act based on that value system. when the action arises that we can take a step further and start building, we will arrive at that and it will obvious.

Jacque's solution to this is education through a major motion film. They need 100,000 and they have 65,000 More infor can be found here: http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/get-involved/major-motion-picture-donations

It will be an extremely entertaining and educating film for all ages and all people across the world. You can find more information about it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNWId7rGQ2U&feature=related I have more information on it but it's scattered at the moment."

[-] 0 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

P.S. I been watching The Occupy Movement closely. I can see it still growing in numbers; the only difference is that it's going through a transition period.

I am not sure what to call it but it seems common in all movements. It's like a maturing of sorts. It seems very physically active and showering with seen qualities of growth, then that dissolves into another phases that feels much different.

I assure you it is nothing to be alerted about, it is a natural phase of evolution. I am just surprised it evolved this quickly. Usually movement stay in the first phase for quite a bit longer and usually takes years to reach the support that occupy has.

Everyone is feeling what you describe, you're not the only one. I wish everyone knew what it meant so they don't feel fear about it.

If you look at the alexa site traffic numbers and fb page likes... you can see a noticeable growth in numbers everyday. It's not dieing, it's changing and maturing.

[-] 1 points by blackpanther6389 (39) from Peoria, IL 8 years ago

It's also the case that should he go into more detail about the RBE anyone who's in it for themselves would patent the ideas and turn it into a money making scheme. That doesn't make his lectures any less relevant. I think his main focus is a new way of thinking and declaring the earth's resources as the common heritage of all of the worlds people.

That is a legit concern and I wish I could tell you more but I don't really know much more. He says he talks about a RBE and some of his stuff a lot more if you go to one of his tours but sadly I haven't been able to go to one yet. So I can only tell you things through my own interpretation and with the knowledge that I know of up to this point.

[-] 1 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

There is tons of information on this site, you could spend weeks on it (watching videos and reading articles) and never hit every post: www.unitinghumans.com

[-] 1 points by VeniVidiVici (14) 8 years ago

Do You Support Wikileaks? *

Please help us petition the White House to stop President Barck Obama from imposing harsh economic sanctions against a promising young African nation whose innocence has been proven by secret US embassy cables released by Wikileaks. Your signature can really save the lives of 5 million people. Thank you.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/vindicated-by-wikileaks-but-not-freed-from-accusat/

[-] 1 points by metapolitik (1110) 8 years ago

Synergetics, Resource Based Economics, Metapolitical Discourse and Deep Digital Democracy:

http://metapolitik.org/article/approaching-metapolitical-discourse

[-] 1 points by blackpanther6389 (39) from Peoria, IL 8 years ago

I will try to address some of the complaints and issues of people that still aren't sure about the vp which are all legit concerns and keep in mind I'm not an enemy, I only want to help:

I saw a comment in which someone was talking about building the city without first testing it or something along those lines. Here's some food for thought; how are buildings erected? How are bridges built? Calculations and engineering and research can tell you what you can and can't build. After that step THEN they build and the people who get to drive over the bridges or run the elevators in these buildings are the first ones to test to see if it works and people happen to trust that stuff just fine. Just because Fresco doesn't go into detail about that stuff doesn't mean that he doesn't have blueprints. Should he put that stuff out there, would mean a businessman can put a patent on his ideas and that's the end of the designs of the venus project. Is that understood? I can attempt to throw out more examples if need be.

I read something about sharing the venus project through open source. The problem with that I see is that not everyone may be geared with the new way of thinking and somewhere within the rat race, it gets leaked out to someone who has no intention of making the world better for everyone which is just straight silly so sharing VP via open source really isn't a good idea.

Jacque has stated many times that he doesn't have the money or funds to even begin building the first city. What's so hard to understand about that? The funds are coming mostly from us! Now if he can get a whole nation to fund the venus project then he can build the first city. While we are still in the monetary system, we have to adhere to the rules of the system meaning. if you're not already sitting on a goldmine of resources like: concrete for the houses, photovoltaic materials for solar paneling, the steel for support and other structures, etc., then you're not gonna just build a city out of thin air, you have to buy those things so Jacque can't just build the first city like most of you are demanding. Spread the word out, the more you know and understand about the new way of thinking, the easier it will be to talk to people about it, but if you don't know much and you're just going off of, "I want to see this done so badly but I've only spent a day listening to Jacque's lectures" and are emotionally driven (i.e. getting fired) while talking then you're gonna get nowhere fast. I understand the sense of urgency but you still gotta be patient. Understand that people aren't truly rational animals or we wouldn't be in the conundrum that we are in now, understand? He needs money, as do we if you choose to survive so we can only give him little amounts of funding. Spread the word, the more people the better; Remember six degrees of seperation, eventually the word will get out to someone who's got a decent amount of money. Like myself, one of my best friends has a dad who was a big wig at caterpillar but he retired not to long ago. I'm slowly getting to him and when he understand enough of the venus project, he will tell his rich dad about it.

Remember guys we gotta try to come from different angles, try to understand each others view point and build from it, not your own. We're all in this together I come as a friend and I want to help.

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 8 years ago

Iraq Combat Veteran challenges Steven Spielberg and Leonard Nimoy to the Venus Project movie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHh7uTrmSYE

[-] 1 points by TheMaster (63) 8 years ago

I miss his oceanography shows on National Geographic. Had no idea he was still alive. He must be pushing 100.

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 8 years ago

Zeitgeist comes out of Buckminster Fuller's ideas, basing human society around a static resource base. As technology progresses, resources themselves change.

It's also Earth-centric (no discussion of space exploration), non-terraforming (even the ancients did this), and socially Utopian ("all the social problems of the world will be fixed"). Is Zeitgeist really about progress?

[-] 1 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

Jacque will be the first one to say we all are standing on shoulders of giants and all ideas come from somewhere else and evolve overtime. All inventions and all ideas come from a variety of other references.

[-] 1 points by Glaucon (296) 8 years ago

You seem to treat Jacque more like your cult guru than like a theoretician who should be appreciated and criticized at the same time. Great thinkers usually don't have groupies. They present their ideas in peer-reviewed journals and their ideas are discussed by other great thinkers who provide criticism and/or support. Jacque seems to be talking to his groupies only. Where are his interactions with the great economic minds of our time?

[-] 1 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

I just paraphrasing for you what Jacque has said so you are aware that he has mentioned the very same things you are addressing. It's very simple. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEPq33y75YM

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 8 years ago

Do you have any thoughts of your own? Stefan Molyneux is a sophist.

[-] 2 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

What do you mean by "thoughts of your own"? Every word we is use is learned. All our ideas, perspectives, and understandings come from what we were exposed to in our upbringing. Nobody has an original thought. All "new thoughts" are arrived at through "new information" (meaning information you never heard before) but that "new information" may just be a hand-down from that persons conditioned environment and upbringing. This is how evolution works BUT when you say "thought of your own" or "think for yourself" there is no such thing. A new thought can't come from nowhere-land and all a sudden you think differently. It comes from being exposed to different people and different culture saying different things than what you previously were exposed to.

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 8 years ago

Try backing that idea up to the time of early mankind, in the first stages of language development. I'd like to see how far you can go with it.

[-] 1 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

I am not saying EVERYTHING comes from different cultures. The point is that everything creative comes from KNOWN elements put together in unique ways.

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 8 years ago

What do you believe the mind is? A tabla rasa?

[-] 1 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

What I am saying has nothing to do with beliefs of what the mind is. Nobody can see objectively from a clean slate, to do so one would have to sidestep all their conditioning, culture influences, upbringing, and everything they learned in their environment and experience based on what they think the world is. All the thoughts they were taught about this world.

I am just pointing out a very simple fact that people are not separate from their environment. In fact, humans are the result of the evolution in the natural environment unfolding. We are the result of the environment itself.

The influence the environment has on us is everything; it is intimately connected to human behavior. Everything from thoughts, words, and actions. "What you put in, is what you get out".

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 8 years ago

This has everything to do with the mind. Ever read Plato's Meno dialogue?

[-] 1 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

I guess it depends on the definition of mind. Yes, most would agree it has to do with mind. And if it is the definition most feel mind is, then yes, that's what I am talking about.

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 8 years ago

"And if it is the definition most feel mind is, then yes, that's what I am talking about."

You base your ideas on how most feel about something? Damn. How long have you been at OWS, doing temperature checks? lol

[-] 1 points by BlogMakeover (29) 8 years ago

lol... no that is not how I base my ideas.

I am saying it depends on your definition. We have to have the same definition in order to talk about something. If I am talking about what I think "love" is and use the word without attaching what I think it means, then one may assume that when I say the word "love" then I must be talking about the way they experience it.

The word "mind" is the same thing. Taking the definition in the way most people use it, I can only be talking about one thing, so yes, I can ONLY be talking about that.

I am not talking about that but I must be through assumption.

My point is that "mind" is not what most assume it is. Mind a stimulus response to the environment. No different than the heart beating or your hair growing. As much as people like to assume they have control, there is no controller in there. Everything we respond to from thoughts, words, and actions are all things we learned from the environment. How we were raised and brought-up, exposed to.

It gets trick because there seemly is something that has somewhat control over aspects of what looks like choice. Like if you focus on your breathe, you can seemly change the rhythm of your breathe which affects your heartbeat. But yet, you can't stop breathing and as soon as you let go of the focus on breathing; an automatic process takes over.

So when I say "mind", I am not taking about a person somewhere in there that has free will to think thoughts and has choices to make. You can focus on your mind and seemly have choice and free will but it's the same illusion as control over your breathe; there is always a process happening without your control AND even the focusing is that same process.

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 8 years ago

"Mind a stimulus response to the environment."

I really think you should read Plato's Meno dialogue.

[-] 0 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 8 years ago

Like the Atlantic DNA found at the root of afroasiatic languages?

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 8 years ago

Sure. DNA creates language. Let's hear it.

[-] 0 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 8 years ago

Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages

Fulvio Cruciani et al.

Abstract

Although human Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroup R1b are quite rare in Africa, being found mainly in Asia and Europe, a group of chromosomes within the paragroup R-P25 are found concentrated in the central-western part of the African continent, where they can be detected at frequencies as high as 95%. Phylogenetic evidence and coalescence time estimates suggest that R-P25 chromosomes (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried to Africa by an Asia-to-Africa back migration in prehistoric times. Here, we describe six new mutations that define the relationships among the African R-P25 Y chromosomes and between these African chromosomes and earlier reported R-P25 Eurasian sub-lineages. The incorporation of these new mutations into a phylogeny of the R1b haplogroup led to the identification of a new clade (R1b1a or R-V88) encompassing all the African R-P25 and about half of the few European/west Asian R-P25* chromosomes. A worldwide phylogeographic analysis of the R1b haplogroup provided strong support to the Asia-to-Africa back-migration hypothesis. The analysis of the distribution of the R-V88 haplogroup in >1800 males from 69 African populations revealed a striking genetic contiguity between the Chadic-speaking peoples from the central Sahel and several other Afroasiatic-speaking groups from North Africa. The R-V88 coalescence time was estimated at 9200–5600 kya, in the early mid Holocene. We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin, and geomorphological evidence is consistent with this view.

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 8 years ago

This proves what exactly? There's some correlation that may be going on?

[-] 0 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 8 years ago

I've been enjoined against further discussion of this matter.

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 8 years ago

How did that happen?

[-] 1 points by ronimacarroni (1089) 8 years ago

Awesome!

Too bad I missed it.

[-] 0 points by GeorgeCarlinRules (482) 8 years ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w has long section on a resourced based economy

[-] 0 points by GeorgeCarlinRules (482) 8 years ago

intro to a resourced based economy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mkRFCtl2MI