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Forum Post: It's no wonder California is broke...

Posted 2 years ago on May 18, 2012, 5:25 p.m. EST by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

California Academic Performance Index (API) * California Access for Infants and Mothers * California Acupuncture Board * California Administrative Office of the Courts * California Adoptions Branch * California African American Museum * California Agricultural Export Program * California Agricultural Labor Relations Board * California Agricultural Statistics Service * California Air Resources Board (CARB) * California Allocation Board * California Alternative Energy and Advanced Transportation Financing Authority * California Animal Health and Food Safety Services * California Anti-Terrorism Information Center * California Apprenticeship Council * California Arbitration Certification Program * California Architects Board * California Area VI Developmental Disabilities Board * California Arts Council * California Asian Pacific Islander Legislative Caucus * California Assembly Democratic Caucus * California Assembly Republican Caucus * California Athletic Commission * California Attorney General * California Bay Conservation and Development Commission * California Bay-Delta Authority * California Bay-Delta Office * California Bio Diversity Council * California Board for Geologists and Geophysicists * California Board for Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors * California Board of Accountancy * California Board of Barbering and Cosmetology * California Board of Behavioral Sciences * California Board of Chiropractic Examiners * California Board of Equalization (BOE) * California Board of Forestry and Fire Protection * California Board of Guide Dogs for the Blind * California Board of Occupational Therapy * California Board of Optometry * California Board of Pharmacy * California Board of Podiatric Medicine * California Board of Prison Terms * California Board of Psychology * California Board of Registered Nursing * California Board of Trustees * California Board of Vocational Nursing and Psychiatric Technicians * California Braille and Talking Book Library * California Building Standards Commission * California Bureau for Private Post Secondary and Vocational Education * California Bureau of Automotive Repair * California Bureau of Electronic and Appliance Repair * California Bureau of Home Furnishings and Thermal Insulation * California Bureau of Naturopathic Medicine * California Bureau of Security and Investigative Services * California Bureau of State Audits * California Business Agency * California Business Investment Services (CalBIS) * California Business Permit Information (CalGOLD) * California Business Portal * California Business, Transportation and Housing Agency * California Cal Grants * California CalJOBS * California Cal-Learn Program * California CalVet Home Loan Program * California Career Resource Network * California Cemetery and Funeral Bureau * California Center for Analytical Chemistry * California Center for Distributed Learning * California Center for Teaching Careers (Teach California) * California Chancellors Office * California Charter Schools * California Children and Families Commission * California Children and Family Services Division * California Citizens Compensation Commission * California Civil Rights Bureau * California Coastal Commission * California Coastal Conservancy * California Code of Regulations * California Collaborative Projects with UC Davis * California Commission for Jobs and Economic Growth * California Commission on Aging * California Commission on Health and Safety and Workers Compensation * California Commission on Judicial Performance * California Commission on State Mandates * California Commission on Status of Women * California Commission on Teacher Credentialing * California Commission on the Status of Women * California Committee on Dental Auxiliaries * California Community Colleges Chancellors Office, Junior Colleges * California Community Colleges Chancellors Office * California Complaint Mediation Program * California Conservation Corps * California Constitution Revision Commission * California Consumer Hotline * California Consumer Information Center * California Consumer Information * California Consumer Services Division * California Consumers and Families Agency * California Contractors State License Board * California Corrections Standards Authority * California Council for the Humanities * California Council on Criminal Justice * California Council on Developmental Disabilities * California Court Reporters Board * California Courts of Appeal * California Crime and Violence Prevention Center * California Criminal Justice Statistics Center * California Criminalist Institute Forensic Library * California CSGnet Network Management * California Cultural and Historical Endowment * California Cultural Resources Division * California Curriculum and Instructional Leadership Branch * California Data Exchange Center * California Data Management Division * California Debt and Investment Advisory Commission * California Delta Protection Commission * California Democratic Caucus * California Demographic Research Unit * California Dental Auxiliaries * California Department of Aging * California Department of Alcohol and Drug Programs * California Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control Appeals Board * California Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control * California Department of Boating and Waterways (Cal Boating) * California Department of Child Support Services (CDCSS) * California Department of Community Services and Development * California Department of Conservation * California Department of Consumer Affairs * California Department of Corporations * California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation * California Department of Developmental Services * California Department of Education * California Department of Fair Employment and Housing * California Department of Finance * California Department of Financial Institutions * California Department of Fish and Game * California Department of Food and Agriculture * California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection (CDF) * California Department of General Services * California Department of General Services, Office of State Publishing * California Department of Health Care Services * California Department of Housing and Community Development * California Department of Industrial Relations (DIR) * California Department of Insurance * California Department of Justice Firearms Division * California Department of Justice Opinion Unit * California Department of Justice, Consumer Information, Public Inquiry Unit * California Department of Justice * California Department of Managed Health Care * California Department of Mental Health * California Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) * California Department of Personnel Administration * California Department of Pesticide Regulation * California Department of Public Health * California Department of Real Estate * California Department of Rehabilitation * California Department of Social Services Adoptions Branch * California Department of Social Services * California Department of Technology Services Training Center (DTSTC) * California Department of Technology Services (DTS) * California Department of Toxic Substances Control * California Department of Transportation (Caltrans) * California Department of Veterans Affairs (CalVets) * California Department of Water Resources * California Departmento de Vehiculos Motorizados * California Digital Library * California Disabled Veteran Business Enterprise Certification Program * California Division of Apprenticeship Standards * California Division of Codes and Standards * California Division of Communicable Disease Control * California Division of Engineering * California Division of Environmental and Occupational Disease Control * California Division of Gambling Control * California Division of Housing Policy Development * California Division of Labor Standards Enforcement * California Division of Labor Statistics and Research * California Division of Land and Right of Way * California Division of Land Resource Protection * California Division of Law Enforcement General Library * California Division of Measurement Standards * California Division of Mines and Geology * California Division of Occupational Safety and Health (Cal/OSHA) * California Division of Oil, Gas and Geothermal Resources * California Division of Planning and Local Assistance * California Division of Recycling * California Division of Safety of Dams * California Division of the State Architect * California Division of Tourism * California Division of Workers Compensation Medical Unit * California Division of Workers Compensation * California Economic Assistance, Business and Community Resources * California Economic Strategy Panel * California Education and Training Agency * California Education Audit Appeals Panel * California Educational Facilities Authority * California Elections Division * California Electricity Oversight Board * California Emergency Management Agency * California Emergency Medical Services Authority * California Employment Development Department (EDD) * California Employment Information State Jobs * California Employment Training Panel * California Energy Commission * California Environment and Natural Resources Agency * California Environmental Protection Agency (Cal/EPA) * California Environmental Resources Evaluation System (CERES) * California Executive Office * California Export Laboratory Services * California Exposition and State Fair (Cal Expo) * California Fair Political Practices Commission * California Fairs and Expositions Division * California Film Commission * California Fire and Resource Assessment Program * California Firearms Division * California Fiscal Services * California Fish and Game Commission * California Fisheries Program Branch * California Floodplain Management * California Foster Youth Help * California Franchise Tax Board (FTB) * California Fraud Division * California Gambling Control Commission * California Geographic Information Systems Council (GIS) * California Geological Survey *

234 Comments

234 Comments


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[-] 2 points by penguento (362) 2 years ago

Lots of folks here are complaining about Prop 13, but I thought that OWS supported the concept of self-determination by the people. Prop 13 was exactly that. Prop 13 was passed by referendum -- the people themselves chose to lower property taxes. So what's the problem? Has something changed? Isn't self-determination by the people what OWS wants?

And bear in mind why it was passed -- in California, like a lot of other places, property taxes were based on assessed values, regardless of a person's income. As property prices soared higher and higher, property taxes became ruinously high, ruining people financially and driving driving them out of their houses. A person with a $35,000 income living in a 900 sq. ft. house in San Jose could find themselves with a million dollar valuation on that tiny house, and a property tax bill equal to half their income. The government wouldn't do anything about it, so the people did something themselves. It had nothing to do with some mythical greedy 1%, and everything to do with a government that couldn't control its spending and didn't give a shit who they hurt with the taxes they imposed.

Is OWS in favor of running the 99% out of their houses by imposing confiscatory taxes on them?

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

CA Primaries June 5 Tuesday


[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

prop 13 made raising property taxes require a 2/3 majority

[-] 1 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

You left off prop 13 and the wonders of Arnold.

[-] -1 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

Are they departments ?

[-] 1 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

No, they are much more damaging than any mere department.

As they are HUGE lies.

[+] -4 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

Oh really? Why don't you tell us how you figure that. Include something measurable in your argument, not just opinion.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

California Proposition 13 (1978)

Section 1. (a) The maximum amount of any ad valorem tax on real property shall not exceed one percent (1%) of the full cash value of such property. The one percent (1%) tax to be collected by the counties and apportioned according to law to the districts within the counties.

The proposition decreased property taxes by assessing property values at their 1975 value and restricted annual increases of assessed value of real property to an inflation factor, not to exceed 2% per year. It also prohibited reassessment of a new base year value except for (a) change in ownership or (b) completion of new construction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_13_%281978%29

proposition 13 severely cut state revenue

and as time went by, properties were accessed at a lot lower rate than value as property prices ballooned.

as long as that property did not change hands

[-] -1 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

Severely cut? Kalifornya already has among the highest income tax rates in the country. People are being driven out of the state and the revenues are collapsing because of it. You want a higher property tax?

WTF? It's never enough for you jackassses, is it? You always want more, more, more.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

if people are dodging taxes by leaving

the property needs to be taxed because it can not leave

[-] -1 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

Yea, that iron fist of gubment is working real swell.

Why don't you go live in Cuba or North Korea, since you seem to like it so much.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

those are also countries with people in them

[-] -1 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

Yes, and you'd be treating them like animals.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

that's why I resigned from "offense" industry

[-] -1 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

"if people are dodging taxes by leaving

the property needs to be taxed because it can not leave"

No, you sound like a little POS dictator in your own right.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

Why?

You provided nothing but lists of departments.

The highly negative effects of prop 13 have been discussed here before. Look it up yourself.

What can you really say about Arnold? He isn't even as good an actor as Reagan was.

[+] -4 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

In other words, you don't have schit, amateur. I thought so.

[Deleted]

[-] -1 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

Yup. Vote for Kalifornya to be the WORST in every category!

GO FOR THE FOOLSGOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Removed]

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by Shule (1696) 2 years ago

The real reason California is broke: I remember a few years ago, back when Arnold S. became Governor, Arnold assembled a panel of economic experts to address his State's money problem. Arnold's experts were an assembly of billionaires. Arnold reasoned if these billionaires can handle their own money to become billionaires, they would know how to responsibly make recommendations for handling the State's money... This panel of billionaires held a public conference. One of the billionaires said the State should raise taxes on rich people like him so they can pay their fair share of taxes. Upon the word taxes, some idiot "joe-the-plumber' type yelled out "no new taxes", and got the crowd to start chanting "no new taxes." The billionaire, quite stunned and offended, responded in a nevertheless calm voice, "ok let's remember that" and walked out. So much for trying to fairly balance any budget in California.

Everything on Peacup's list is a rational organization doing a needed public service. It all needs to be funded.

[-] -1 points by simondoes (1) 2 years ago

Your post is killer,what a great illustration of what progressive's can do to fuck up an economy and pretty much everything else of a State. The listing of bureaucratic insanity makes a powerful statement which none of these Leftists can defend or explain with any validity or lucidity. It's a blast to read their asinine attempts at excusing this kind of hyper-regulation and Nannyocracy. Very clever,thanks.

[-] -1 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

M O R E

California Government Claims and Victim Compensation Board * California Governors Committee for Employment of Disabled Persons * California Governors Mentoring Partnership * California Governors Office of Emergency Services * California Governors Office of Homeland Security * California Governors Office of Planning and Research * California Governors Office * California Grant and Enterprise Zone Programs HCD Loan * California Health and Human Services Agency * California Health and Safety Agency * California Healthy Families Program * California Hearing Aid Dispensers Bureau * California High-Speed Rail Authority * California Highway Patrol (CHP) * California History and Culture Agency * California Horse Racing Board * California Housing Finance Agency * California Indoor Air Quality Program * California Industrial Development Financing Advisory Commission * California Industrial Welfare Commission * California InFoPeople * California Information Center for the Environment * California Infrastructure and Economic Development Bank (I-Bank) * California Inspection Services * California Institute for County Government * California Institute for Education Reform * California Integrated Waste Management Board * California Interagency Ecological Program * California Job Service * California Junta Estatal de Personal * California Labor and Employment Agency * California Labor and Workforce Development Agency * California Labor Market Information Division * California Land Use Planning Information Network (LUPIN) * California Lands Commission * California Landscape Architects Technical Committee * California Latino Legislative Caucus * California Law Enforcement Branch * California Law Enforcement General Library * California Law Revision Commission * California Legislative Analyst's Office * California Legislative Black Caucus * California Legislative Counsel * California Legislative Division * California Legislative Information * California Legislative Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender (LGBT) Caucus * California Legislature Internet Caucus * California Library De velopment Services * California License and Revenue Branch * California Major Risk Medical Insurance Program * California Managed Risk Medical Insurance Board * California Maritime Academy * California Marketing Services * California Measurement Standards * California Medical Assistance Commission * California Medical Care Services * California Military Department * California Mining and Geology Board * California Museum for History, Women, and the Arts * California Museum Resource Center * California National Guard * California Native American Heritage Commission * California Natural Community Conservation Planning Program * California New Motor Vehicle Board * California Nursing Home Administrator Program * California Occupational Safety and Health Appeals Board * California Occupational Safety and Health Standards Board * California Ocean Resources Management Program * California Office of Administrative Hearings * California Office of Administrative Law * California Office of AIDS * California Office of Binational Border Health * California Office of Child Abuse Prevention * California Office of Deaf Access * California Office of Emergency Services (OES) * California Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment * California Office of Fiscal Services * California Office of Fleet Administration * California Office of Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) Implementation (CalOHI) * California Office of Historic Preservation * California Office of Homeland Security * California Office of Human Resources * California Office of Legal Services * California Office of Legislation * California Office of Lieutenant Governor * California Office of Military and Aerospace Support * California Office of Mine Reclamation * California Office of Natural Resource Education * California Office of Privacy Protection * California Office of Public School Construction * California Office of Real Estate Appraisers * California Office of Risk and Insurance Management * California Office of Services to the Blind * California Office of Spill Prevention and Response * California Office of State Publishing (OSP) * California Office of Statewide Health Planning and Development * California Office of Systems Integration * California Office of the Inspector General * California Office of the Ombudsman * California Office of the Patient Advocate * California Office of the President * California Office of the Secretary for Education * California Office of the State Fire Marshal * California Office of the State Public Defender * California Office of Traffic Safety * California Office of Vital Records * California Online Directory * California Operations Control Office * California Opinion Unit * California Outreach and Technical Assistance Network (OTAN) * California Park and Recreation Commission * California Peace Officer Standards and Training (POST) * California Performance Review (CPR) * California Permit Information for Business (CalGOLD) * California Physical Therapy Board * California Physician Assistant Committee * California Plant Health and Pest Prevention Services * California Policy and Evaluation Division * California Political Reform Division * California Pollution Control Financing Authority *

[-] -1 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

AND M O R E....

California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo * California Postsecondary Education Commission * California Prevention Services * California Primary Care and Family Health * California Prison Industry Authority * California Procurement Division * California Public Employees Retirement System (CalPERS) * California Public Employment Relations Board (PERB) * California Public Utilities Commission (PUC) * California Real Estate Services Division * California Refugee Programs Branch * California Regional Water Quality Control Boards * California Registered Veterinary Technician Committee * California Registrar of Charitable Trusts * California Republican Caucus * California Research and Development Division * California Research Bureau * California Resources Agency * California Respiratory Care Board * California Rivers Assessment * California Rural Health Policy Council * California Safe Schools * California San Francisco Bay Conservation and Development Commission * California San Gabriel and Lower Los Angeles Rivers and Mountains Conservancy * California San Joaquin River Conservancy * California School to Career * California Science Center * California Scripps Institution of Oceanography * California Secretary of State Business Portal * California Secretary of State * California Seismic Safety Commission * California Self Insurance Plans (SIP) * California Senate Office of Research * California Small Business and Disabled Veteran Business Enterprise Certification Program * California Small Business Development Center Program * California Smart Growth Caucus * California Smog Check Information Center * California Spatial Information Library * California Special Education Division * California Speech-Language Pathology and Audiology Board * California Standardized Testing and Reporting (STAR) * California Standards and Assessment Division * California State Administrative Manual (SAM) * California State Allocation Board * California State and Consumer Services Agency * California State Architect * California State Archives * California State Assembly * California State Association of Counties (CSAC) * California State Board of Education * California State Board of Food and Agriculture *California Office of the Chief Information Officer (OCIO) * California State Children's Trust Fund * California State Compensation Insurance Fund * California State Contracts Register Program * California State Contracts Register * California State Controller * California State Council on Developmental Disabilities (SCDD) * California State Disability Insurance (SDI) * California State Fair (Cal Expo) * California State Jobs Employment Information * California State Lands Commission * California State Legislative Portal * California State Legislature * California State Library Catalog * California State Library Services Bureau * California State Library * California State Lottery * California State Mediation and Conciliation Service * California State Mining and Geology Board * California State Park and Recreation Commission * California State Parks * California State Personnel Board * California State Polytechnic University, Pomona * California State Railroad Museum * California State Science Fair * California State Senate * California State Summer School for Mathematics and Science (COSMOS) * California State Summer School for the Arts * California State Superintendent of Public Instruction * California State Teachers Retirement System (CalSTRS) * California State Treasurer * California State University Center for Distributed Learning * California State University, Bakersfield * California State University, Channel Islands * California State University, Chico * California State University, Dominguez Hills * California State University, East Bay * California State University, Fresno * California State University, Fullerton * California State University, Long Beach * California State University, Los Angeles * California State University, Monterey Bay * California State University, Northridge * California State University, Sacramento * California State University, San Bernardino * California State University, San Marcos * California State University, Stanislaus * California State University (CSU) * California State Water Project Analysis Office * California State Water Project * California State Water Resources Control Board * California Structural Pest Control Board * California Student Aid Commission * California Superintendent of Public Instruction * California Superior Courts * California Tahoe Conservancy * California Task Force on Culturally and Linguistically Competent Physicians and Dentists * California Tax Information Center * California Technology and Administration Branch Finance * California Telecommunications Division * California Telephone Medical Advice Services (TAMS) * California Transportation Commission * California Travel and Transportation Agency * California Unclaimed Property Program * California Unemployment Insurance Appeals Board * California Unemployment Insurance Program * California Uniform Construction Cost Accounting Commission * California Veterans Board * California Veterans Memorial * California Veterinary Medical Board and Registered Veterinary Technician Examining Committee * California Veterinary Medical Board * California Victim Compensation and Government Claims Board * California Volunteers * California Voter Registration * California Water Commission * California Water Environment Association (COWPEA) * California Water Resources Control Board * California Welfare to Work Division * California Wetlands Information System * California Wildlife and Habitat Data Analysis Branch * California Wildlife Conservation Board * California Wildlife Programs Branch * California Work Opportunity and Responsibility to Kids (CalWORKs) * California Workers Compensation Appeals Board * California Workforce and Labor Development Agency * California Workforce Investment Board * California Youth Authority (CYA) * Central Valley Flood Protection Board * Center for California Studies * Colorado River Board of California * Counting California * Dental Board of California * Health Insurance Plan of California (PacAdvantage) * Humboldt State University * Jobs with the State of California * Judicial Council of California * Learn California * Library of California * Lieutenant Governors Commission for One California * Little Hoover Commission (on California State Government Organization and Economy) * Medical Board of California * Medi-Cal * Osteopathic Medical Board of California * Physical Therapy Board of California * Regents of the University of California * San Diego State University * San Francisco State University * San Jose State University * Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy * State Bar of California * Supreme Court of California * Teach California * University of California * University of California, Berkeley * University of California, Davis * University of California, Hastings College of the Law * University of California, Irvine * University of California, Los Angeles * University of California, Merced * University of California, Riverside * University of California, San Diego * University of California, San Francisco * University of California, Santa Barbara * University of California, Santa Cruz * Veterans Home of California

Everyone of those "enterprises" has a deputy assistant to a deputy assistant to a secretary to a department head to a blah blah blah. Everyone of them is a monument to paper shufflers and people with meeting-itis !!!

[-] 4 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

It's a big state that has the largest state population. Many programs to help many people. The choice is do we balance the budget by cutting services to the working class/poor or by taxing the rich? It's a moral thing.

[-] -2 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

"With 12% of America's population, California has one third of the nation's welfare recipients. "

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304537904577277242682364690.html

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

poor people are not the problem with America. The devastation of the middle class by the rich is the problem. If we can loosen the grip of debt. low wages, poor education we will unleash the greatest consumers the planet has ever seen. With that, demand will rise, jobs will be created, revenues will grow, deficits will magically disappear. welfare recipients will decrease, the debt will shrink! The answer is helping the middle class. Support OWS. Vote out anti labor, anti buffet rule republicans

[-] 1 points by MoveOnNothingToSee (-22) 2 years ago

Drive around L.A. sometime and ask yourself where that barrio came from. Poor people, imported poor people, are a huge part of the problem with America. If you are troubled by poverty, at least be smart enough to know what happens in a border state if you don't turn down the flood.

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Immigrants throughout history have started out poor. Whats your point? We need immigrants. The country was built on them and will always benefit from them. You have a problem with immigrants Support OWS Vote out anti immigrant politicians

[-] 0 points by MoveOnNothingToSee (-22) 2 years ago

Yes, but what kind? You wanna pitch me on how a dearth of uneducated people is somehow some sort of national problem we're having? What planet do you live on? We need educated people, not toilet cleaners that end up adding to social problems.

Seriously, who the fuck could possibly drive around L.A. without being able to understand the connection between poverty and an immigration problem?

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

maybe they can be educated. Is that beyond your comprehension. It frequently takes a couple of generations before immigrants melt in. but it always happens. And there are always those complaining about it. nothing new. your a new voice for the same old exclusionary forces. We got ours so no body else should be allowed in? Get a grip. we will absorb everyone. Tired, poor, etc etc.

[-] 0 points by MoveOnNothingToSee (-22) 2 years ago

Great, then don't complain about them being poor. The U.S. already has an oversupply of uneducated people; unemployment goes higher the less education people have. Simple facts my leftist friend.

We're a modern country and people without an education can't function and earn the things we think people should have. So, we give it to them, like in healthcare. Bedwetters like you endlessly complain about people "without", but seem not to know what makes for a person "without". A major ingredient on the recipe card is immigration.

L.A. Is a case study in what happens with uncontrolled immigration. That mess? It walked here from mostly Mexico and we let it happen.

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

bedwetter"? name calling betrays your inability to argue logically. school yard bully tactics are innefective on line. Our economic problems are not because of mexicans. It is because of the massive redistribution of wealth from the middle class/poor to the 1%. We dont want anything for free. We want our money back. and immigrants have always been harder working than lazy self important citizens driving around when they would benefit more from a good long walk. Support OWS vote out anti immigrant poiticians

[-] 0 points by MoveOnNothingToSee (-22) 2 years ago

Logic? Here's logic. Immigration of a lot of people without any sort of education spreads poverty. Working hard at designing a new computer chip helps our economy, but working hard at something with minimal value like washing dishes hurts as it drains our social services. L.a. is the poster city of this problem. Want less poverty? Have ICE do a sweep of L.A. and you'd have a good start.

Import poverty and then complain that there's all this poverty, that's masterful logic.

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Poverty is created by greedy wealthy who won't invest in job creation in the usa. immigrants are critical to replenish the population. Without them the tax base would not support the needs of the country. low wage jobs are necessary we can't all create chips boss. Hard working people is what this country is all about. You are probably a selfish racist. right?

[-] 1 points by MoveOnNothingToSee (-22) 2 years ago

Got a shocker for ya. It's also created by not having any job skills other than a strong back or a willingness to push a broom. Replenish our population? Where did it go that it needs replenishment? Did we use it up some how?

True, not everyone has the capability of designing chips. You nailed it, now go with it and see if you can have a eureka moment. Low wage jobs are necessary because some lack the skills to do more. You wrote. Now stay with me. The more people without skills you have, the more low end jobs you need. The border floods us with no skill people. They need unskilled low wage jobs. Low wage jobs, get ready, don't pay much. In fact, not enough to pay their own bills such as healthcare. So, we just add scale to poverty and those you whine about.

You call it a "tax base". It's a negative tax base. When you make $5/hour, what sort of taxes did you imagine them paying? LOL. I can tell you what a baby costs in one of our hospitals and what a school costs. Maybe Jerry Brown will ask lawn dudes of California to fix the deficit, you know, the "tax base". LOL

No, hard working people doing something OF VALUE is what this country is all about. L.A. Demostrates what happens when we forget the obvious.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

people need food and shelter not jobs

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

The population needs to be replenished because our citizens have very babies. uneducated people can be trained for better jobs. Education needs to be more affordable. Healthcare needs to be more affordable. that these things are so much money is the crime against the 99% (immigrant or otherwise). $5 hr is too low. We need a living wage. another crime against the 99% (immigrant or not) correct those problems and we'll be fine with all the immigrants. bring 'em on. We love 'em.

[-] 0 points by MoveOnNothingToSee (-22) 2 years ago

The things you support contradict your goals.

Low wages are a crime of supply and demand. The only way to create the number of jobs needed to absorb the flood of unskilled people now on our hands is to have low wages. You seemed for a sec to grasp this. Fact is, demand for maid service just isn't there at twice the price. You're hopeless.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

Americans are well educated

most labor is unskilled (however)

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (34870) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

If you are so concerned about the uneducated.

Why not instead of complaining about the growing numbers of uneducated? Why don't you push for education?

Why does this modern Country not have the educated populace that it needs?

No don't go looking to blame the uneducated immigrant legal or not.

We can't keep our kids in school.

School is not handling the need to turn out successful graduates.

This country is bleeding jobs to outsourcing like a cut artery.

Base line workers do not earn a living wage.

This is all related to greed and greed's killing of our society.

Kids look at their environment around them and what do they see?

A fucked-up world and a fucked-up future.

What happens?

Despair.

[-] 0 points by MoveOnNothingToSee (-22) 2 years ago

I do. But striving for increaes in our own high school graduation rate, for example, does us little good if we're going to simply average it right back down with what immigrates.

"Living wage": What liberals demand that can't understand the implications of an oversupply of the unskilled labor market. Worsen the oversupply and then simply cry even louder about the consequences. Brilliant.

[-] -2 points by gamm789 (-10) 2 years ago

Then why are you posting here right now when protesters who badly need your support are less than 500 miles from where you claim to be?

Another Pretender...

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (34870) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

WTF are you doing here? You are not a supporter of the fight against greed corruption and crime.

Why do you feel that I need to justify my contributions to you?

Have you ever considered that some can not attend protests due to monetary or health constraints?

This forum is a communications Hub as all of you attackers well know.

You all get busy here when there are movement action days.

Why is that?

Do you figure that the forum will be lightly attended and so less defended?

Does it irritate you that you can not come here and freely trash the forum?

Well eat shit and bark at the moon in your anguish frothy mouthed one!


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[-] -2 points by gamm789 (-10) 2 years ago

Keep focusing on the wedge issues that divide us and the two-party tyranny built around them, and the 1% stay in power. Deal with them long enough for the People to unite and destroy our oppressors, and when the fight is over they may not even be wedge issues anymore.

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

We should ignore immigration issues? Because it is a distraction perpetrated by the 1%?

[-] -2 points by gamm789 (-10) 2 years ago

What we need to ignore are 1% operatives like YOU trying to keep us focused on issues that divide us and not the issues that unite us...

Keep focusing on the wedge issues that divide us and the two-party tyranny built around them, and the 1% stay in power. Deal with them long enough for the People to unite and destroy our oppressors, and when the fight is over they may not even be wedge issues anymore.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

I am responding to comments that appear to be racist, selfish, anti immigrant, and wholly unproductive. I'm no ones operative. I have an opinion and I'm expressing it. I can deal with many issues at once. Can't you? Are you against immigrants as well?

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

gamma responded to the opinion for some reason

[-] -2 points by gamm789 (-10) 2 years ago

You fooled some, VQkag. But not many, and not for long...

We must ignore 1% operatives like VQkag trying to keep us focused on issues that divide us and not the issues that unite us. Keep focusing on the wedge issues that divide us and the two-party tyranny built around them, and the 1% stay in power. Deal with them long enough for the People to unite and destroy our oppressors, and when the fight is over they may not even be wedge issues anymore.

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Well? Who have I fooled? How can we destroy our oppressors? Who are they? Do you even know? Lets hear your great insight gamm I don't have to talk about the anti immigrants on this forum that you appear to be providing cover for.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

You haven't complained about anyone else who posted on this issue so I guess you don't like my opinion. And I guess you just want to silence me. Well others have tried. you are welcomed to as well. have at it. I fear no man. We will not be moved! Support OWS. vote out anti immigrant politicians!

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

What issues do you want to deal with? I'll deal with any and all.

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Huh? Able? issat you?

[-] -3 points by danzer (-51) 2 years ago

Legal immigrants, NOT illegals which get free govt services at a cost to the taxpaying legal citizens.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Are you a racist? Maybe we should just eliminate the limits and open the floodgates. More people, more taxpayers. more people more demand created and more jobs created. Whatta ya think? Support OWS vote out anti immigrant politicians

[-] -3 points by danzer (-51) 2 years ago

What's with the "racist" garbage? What has race got to with this? I THINK that there should be quotas on legal immigration. As for illegals, I don't care where they come from, they are illegal and should not be here leaching off the govt, which means leaching off the taxpayers.

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

eliminate the limits and they won't be illegal. They will just be our fellow human american citizens. You wanna talk about leaches? how about all the tax dollars that go to the 1% corps, corp welfare, subsidies, bailouts, tax loopholes, tax cuts. ( and they want more tax cuts!!!). They are the real leaches, poor peoples cost does not compare to the tax dollars wealthy 1%'rs leach from us. Thats the real problem.

[-] -3 points by danzer (-51) 2 years ago

Green companies are subsidized with taxpayer $. oil companies are not.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

more investment in Green companies!. Cut fossil fuel corp subsidies! vote out anti green comp politicians

[-] 1 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

Gosh, but you're wrong about that too.

http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/

How in the World you manage to be so misinformed?

FLAKESnews perhaps?

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (34870) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

OMG - do you have any contact with reality?

Do a search on Oil subsidies.

Can you possibly be serious?

[-] -2 points by danzer (-51) 2 years ago

Oil companies , like any other business are allowed , under the tax lawas , to write off things. Any bussinees or private citizen can do the same thing. Solyndra and Lightsquared received CASH form the govt. that is a subsidy. Both went bankrupt , owing the govt( tax payers ) billions.

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (34870) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago
[-] -3 points by danzer (-51) 2 years ago

There immigration limits for a reason.Do you own a home? If you so you are allowed to deduct the interest on your mortgage. There is nothing illegal about that. It's the tax code as written. It isn't a loophole. Millions of legal citizen use it. The govt GIVES subsidies to "green" companies, using taxpayer money. Solyndra and Lightsquared are bankrupt , both GIVEN taxpayers money. ALLY bank filed for bankruptcy , The govt owns a 74% stake in ALLY formaly known as GMAC . Oil companies use the same tax code as home owners do to legally write off allowed expenses. You are the problem. You know so much about what you don't know.

[-] -2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Stop giving tax payer money to greedy rich 1% leaches. Support OWS. Vote out anti solar politicians.

[-] -2 points by danzer (-51) 2 years ago

go back to your playpen

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

You back? Stop giving tax paper money to greedy rich 1% leaches. Don't you agree with that.? You here to support the !%? Or the 99%? Speak up! Find your big boy words. Get beyond the simple schoolyard bully tactics. Make this interesting! support OWS. Vote out anti buffet rule politicians!

[-] -2 points by danzer (-51) 2 years ago

"Stupid" is an I.Q. category. You qualify.

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Yeah you did that one already. Still meaningless. And on the issue you still want to give more tax dollars to the 1%! support OWS. vote out pro tax cuts for the 1% politicians.

[-] -3 points by danzer (-51) 2 years ago

want the usa to fiscally sound? cut the spending.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Cut waste, cut corp welfare, cut bloated military. cut fossil fuel industry subsidies. invest in people! education, infrastructure jobs, alt energy jobs, health care, job training, disabled, day care, social Security. Support the 99%. Vote out pro norquist politicians

[-] 0 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

If you want it sound, you should be doing the exact opposite.

http://pragcap.com/understand-the-modern-monetary-system/understanding-modern-monetary-system

[-] -3 points by danzer (-51) 2 years ago

You follow your script very well. The buffet rule is worthless , won't do thing, but sounds good. The dems are all about style over substance.

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Do buffett rule. Then do more. 1 step at a time. Dem, Repub ind, whoever might vote for it. nothing will get done if we don't start somewhere. You want to protect the 1%? yes?

[+] -4 points by danzer (-51) 2 years ago

You're too stupid to be " useful idiot".

[-] -1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

more name calling. predictable, meaningless. On the issue though- I guess you don't mind tax dollars to the 1%. I mind. OWS minds support OWS. Vote out anti Buffett rule politicians.

[-] -2 points by MoveOnNothingToSee (-22) 2 years ago

But even legal ones if they have educational levels of grade school drop outs just add to our problems. Think the guy cutting the lawn will be buying his own healthcare, legal or illegal? I'll take an illegal electrical engineer over a legal drop out.

[-] -3 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

Imported poor people?

How does that work?

Lack of good paying jobs has always seemed to at the root of poor people for ages now.

So why import them?

[-] 0 points by Cubs101 (-49) 2 years ago

get a clue Shooz. imported poor people are illegal aliens. Many of them milk the system, with free education, medical care, welfare..

[-] -2 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

Who imported them?

Please don't be so clueless.

How do you feel about WallStreet milking the system for trillions of dollars?

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

the current money system is base on banks making loans

[-] -1 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

So they loan people money to import poor people?

I always though the loan shark "industry" created enough poor people on their own.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

they create poor people that owe them money

[-] -1 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

I know about those. I've been one before.........:)

I'm trying to find out who imports them, like one of these name changing individuals said.

They do say the silliest things.

[+] -5 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Do you hate mexicans?

[+] -4 points by Cubs101 (-49) 2 years ago

you fell into a classic trap, i never mentioned the race of illegal aliens, you, with all due respect, seem to think, that all illegal aliens are mexicans.

[-] -1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

No. I think you hate mexicans and gays. Thats why I asked. So why haven't you answered?

[-] -3 points by Cubs101 (-49) 2 years ago

then why do you think illegal aliens = mexicans. Very offensive.

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

I said/nor think no such thing. What I think is that you are a hateful homophobic racist. Thats why I asked. Support the 99%. Vote out anti gay, anti immigrant politicians.

[-] -2 points by Cubs101 (-49) 2 years ago

that's fantastic, but then why do you equate mexicans with illegal aliens. See below..

points by Cubs101 (0) 33 minutes ago

get a clue Shooz. imported poor people are illegal aliens. Many of them milk the system, with free education, medical care, welfare.. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply edit delete permalink

[-] -4 points by VQkag (719) 28 minutes ago

Do you hate mexicans?

[-] -1 points by MoveOnNothingToSee (-22) 2 years ago

There isn't a lack of good paying jobs, just a surplus of people incapable of doing those jobs. Unemployment and income aren't random, they're highly associated with skills and education. If you lack skills and education, you dramatically increase your chances of being poor. It isn't a plot and it isn't surprising.

Why import them? Very good question. Liberals see no link between immigration of people without skills and education and poverty. Go figure, it's just a mystery. L.A. Is a case study in the downside of immigration.

[+] -4 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

Really?

Just where is this plethora of good paying jobs you speak of?

You did notice the middle class being decimated and all.

You still haven't explained your statement about imported poor people.

[-] -1 points by MoveOnNothingToSee (-22) 2 years ago

Unemployment hooks higher at successively lower levels of skills and education. Want a well paying job, get an education then you'll know where they are.

What statement is left unexplained?

[-] -1 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

This doesn't explain any of the questions I asked.

Not one.

Where are the plethora of good paying jobs?

We already know for sure that an education promises you nothing except bills to pay for it.

You are the one claiming all these jobs are there for the taking.

Where are they? The "job creators" were supposed to provide a bunch, but they didn't.

So they lied then?

You have completely NOT explained your statement about imported poor people.

[-] -2 points by Cubs101 (-49) 2 years ago

Liberal policies and Unions destroyed many jobs. And to be fair conservatives believing in free trade with dirty unfair countries like China destroyed the rest.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

So you changed your name?

Unions support jobs. You should stop listening to Limbaugh and FLAKESnews.

It's been proven to make you mis/uninformed.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (34870) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Is that not how we all are?

We start out with information that is given to us.

We take it with trust and faith that it is all good as we have nothing to tell us otherwise.

Then there comes a point when you hear other things from other people and then. The questioning begins or the heels dig in.

More time passes you hear more things and you begin to see things. Again you begin to question and weigh what you have found and what you have been taught or you dig your heels in again.

Anyway this goes on. The thinkers look with open eyes and measure and weigh. The others dig in their heels and never grow.

Glad to see you come from thinkers.


[-] 1 points by shooz (7373) 8 minutes ago

All I can do until then, is do my best to support what is called a "leftest" position.

I sure ain't no "right" winger anymore.

Strange how that worked. I've become more liberal as I've gotten older.

It happened to my father in-law too. He was a staunch (R)epelican't, until he retired and noticed how hard the (R)epelican'ts worked to limit what he could do, and lessen the worth of his retirement investments.

The ROI on conse(R)vatives, isn't very good. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (34870) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I agree 100% I do not understand the waiting around.

OWS does not have to support party's - except for the presidential election.

The only way that could be different at this point in time would be to announce someone new and then make sure that individual could win on a write in vote or that the person could get on the ballot in time.

Besides that I think OWS could do a lot for pushing support for individuals and for support against individuals.

It all goes to actions for or against the people.

The sooner they ( OWS & all Occupy movements ) make the political plunge the better.


[-] 1 points by shooz (7373) 13 minutes ago

I think it's time for OWS to begin to form it's promised political stance.

It would be the best way to get these pointless left/right arguments to subside.

It would allow those of us in support, that can't for various reasons, lend our flesh and blood to the movement, lend our minds.

It's been an issue for OWS since the early days.

I can recall posts from people in retirement homes asking how they could lend some kind of support, but they were attacked by trolls.

I can recall an Occupy in Firenze Italy posting here for support, that was attacked by trolls.

Needless to say, they never posted again.

It's starting to make me sad..........:( ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 0 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

All I can do until then, is do my best to support what is called a "leftest" position.

I sure ain't no "right" winger anymore.

Strange how that worked. I've become more liberal as I've gotten older.

It happened to my father in-law too. He was a staunch (R)epelican't, until he retired and noticed how hard the (R)epelican'ts worked to limit what he could do, and lessen the worth of his retirement investments.

The ROI on conse(R)vatives, isn't very good.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (34870) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

It really is fun when you can brain storm freely without having to fend off attacks. So much positive energy - I need to exercise on those occasions to come down off the high or I would never sleep.


[-] 2 points by shooz (7373) 2 minutes ago

It makes me yearn for the first few months of the forum, when you could actually get into extended conversations on all sorts of issues, without so much mush and repetition.

All they seem to have left is idiotic insults. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] -1 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

I think it's time for OWS to begin to form it's promised political stance.

It would be the best way to get these pointless left/right arguments to subside.

It would allow those of us in support, that can't for various reasons, lend our flesh and blood to the movement, lend our minds.

It's been an issue for OWS since the early days.

I can recall posts from people in retirement homes asking how they could lend some kind of support, but they were attacked by trolls.

I can recall an Occupy in Firenze Italy posting here for support, that was attacked by trolls.

Needless to say, they never posted again.

It's starting to make me sad..........:(

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (34870) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

OH - Funny - a double negative but in this case - Limbaugh and FLAKESnews - it works. AHHhahahahahhaaha

[-] 1 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

Our latest re-sign-ins seem to listen to nothing except FLAKESnews and Limbaugh, or any number of their clones.

It's like their brains shorted out a while back. You can smell the ozone with every lying word.

[-] -1 points by danzer (-51) 2 years ago

Oh No !! "dared "by schmutz. What a silly little thing you are.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (34870) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

As always lost without their playbook - slow and unimaginative.


[-] 2 points by shooz (7373) 0 minutes ago

Our latest re-sign-ins seem to listen to nothing except FLAKESnews and Limbaugh, or any number of their clones.

It's like their brains shorted out a while back. You can smell the ozone with every lying word. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink


Doomed to repeat themselves as they are unable to learn from history.

[-] 0 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

It makes me yearn for the first few months of the forum, when you could actually get into extended conversations on all sorts of issues, without so much mush and repetition.

All they seem to have left is idiotic insults.

[-] -3 points by Cubs101 (-49) 2 years ago

is shooz your real name? If so, i bet you hate your parents.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

You've spewed nothing but HATE since you logged on.

Should I be taking bets on how long it will be before you get banned again?

Whoever the hell you've been before you are Cubs101,

[-] -1 points by danzer (-51) 2 years ago

schmutz is her/his/its real name.

[-] -3 points by danzer (-51) 2 years ago

Union leaders are for themselves, They are in it for the power and the money. Gerard, trumpka, =high payed thugs.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

gosh. Now you changed your name again.

You aren't a very confident individual.

You don't know crap about unions either.

Just FLAKESnews shit, or maybe some Limbaugh clone.

[-] -2 points by MoveOnNothingToSee (-22) 2 years ago

In the United States and pther modern countries.

If you're dumb enough to "study" something no one gives a fuck about.

What question about poverty immigration is outstanding?

[-] 0 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

OK, I get it.

You can't defend your own statements.

You should probably stop stating them then.

Or perhaps you ARE an imported poor person, you just don't know who imported you, or how much you are worth at the market..

[-] -2 points by danzer (-51) 2 years ago

You're another dem plant that knows so much about what you don't know.

[-] -1 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

Yer a PLANT.

I'm a human.

A very liberal human.

I like OWS.

You don't.

So why the HELL are you here?

Other than to make idiotic comments, that have nothing to do with much of anything.

You wanna stick up for WallStreet? The Kochs? The (R)epelican'ts?

Go "right" ahead. I dare you.

You don't belong here and you should know that well enough to leave on your own accord.

[-] -2 points by MoveOnNothingToSee (-22) 2 years ago

You should probably stop complaining about not getting your questions answered.

Get some skills and watch your prospects improve. Maybe your parents know someone that's successful that can tell you about it.

[-] -2 points by shooz (17997) 2 years ago

You should stop making statements you can't back up.

That's the bottom line.

I have skills, you've never dreamed of.

[-] -3 points by danzer (-51) 2 years ago

schmutz blathers on , again.

[-] -2 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

We were never this progressive, even under Clinton. Half the GD country pays no federal income tax and that's just BS.

We have poor people. That's a given. But it isn't half the GD country.

YOU leftists are creating a nation of slackers who want, but don't want to pay for it.

Explain how California has 12% of the population, but one-third of the nation's welfare cases. They must be doing SOMETHING wrong FFS.

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Don't blame poor people. They have very no power/influence on the direction of the country. Indeed they are and have always been the victims. now the middle class is suffering in similar ways the poor have. As a result the economy is dead. The problem is a massive redistribution of wealth from niddle class/poor to the 1%. correct that and the economy will take off. deficit/debt will improve. the 99% will be happy. Support OWS. vote out anti union politicians

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I agree V. Good post. Poor people are not causing the problem. Trickle down economics is causing the problem. And has been for 30 years. Unfortunately too many people still believe that the rich are the job creators. They are only "potential" job creators. If there is demand. The problem is demand. Yet the Romeny/Ryan budget will give $265M tax assistance to millionaires. And starve the poor and working poor.

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

wow a ray of light. I've been arguing with non OWS people all morning. Thanks. I twinkled you! And not only are the wealthy not really helping is because they tend to 'invest" in funds and such that creat wealth for them but no factories in usa. If jobs are created fr wealth people it is usually in low wage countries. We should penalize outsourcing, incentivize onshoring. and tax millionaires and cap gaines.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I hear ya. It will take alot of time and effort to convince people that trickle down is not working. The whole country moved too far right. Dems included. But like you, I believe Dems are savable. The Right is too far gone. Until the whole country shifts Left, it's important to reach independents.

Everyone was buying into trickle down theory. And there was growth after the Reagan tax cuts. But whatever short term bump that provided has contributed to damaging wealth inequality in the longer term. The Bush tax cuts provided zero growth. Yet Republicans want to triple down. The Romney/Ryan budget will give $265M tax assistance to millionaires. On top of the Reagan tax cuts, on top of the Bush tax cuts. Which all primarily benefitted the wealthy. Holy hell. These people are batshit crazy.

Republicans are stuck like glue on trickle down. It's been ingrained in the psyche of the whole country really. That the wealthy and corporations are the job creators. If the wealthy are job creators - they need to be fired. They are only "potential" job creators. If there is demand. But even as we have extreme levels of wealth inequality and the lowest tax levels - not seen since before the Guilded Age, and tens of millions unemployed, the Right is still bitching and moaning about economic uncertainty, regulations and taxes. That is not the problem. Demand is the problem.

See Figure D. http://www.epi.org/publication/regulatory-uncertainty-phony-explanation/

We can't complete with China's low wages and Communist state run capitalism though. We can't play their game. We have to play our own game. We need to improve our eduction system, which will drive innovation. Because ultimately it's innovation that creates jobs.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

yes. Innovation and demand as you say and as the laws of economics dictate. Corps are not "uncertain" that is just propaganda so we can be convinced to do more for the wealthy. If they see demand increase, and the believe they can make money/profit with additional employees. They will hire. We should create demand and incentivize that they hire on shore.

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I agree. Business always operates with varying degrees of uncertainty. And regulation. They are certainly resiliant enough to do this. Always have and always will. It's just that neither uncertainty, regulation or taxes is the main problem right now.

I like you V. No matter what JoeWinters says about you. I think he's just having some fun with you. He called me a communist earlier. : ) Many people don't understand his sense of humor. But he's really quite funny. Sometimes he says outrageous things to make a point. He always has one. Just go with it.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

He doesn't bother me. Even his threats to attack my computer with a bot. When they start name calling I think it means they lose. Your one the good ones as well. Thanks for being here. I'll twinkle you again. ;)

[-] -2 points by able132 (50) 2 years ago

Fuck the Republicans. Fuck the Democrats. And fuck Demopublican plants like you, VQkag. Factsrfun admitted he's a Democratic Party hack. Why don't you do the same thing and get the fuck out of this forum...

http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/americans-have-three-choices-in-november-bushbamne/#comment-739976

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

You want to silence me because you know I am right. The parties are not the same as you would have us believe. A "no consent"/or 3rd party vote is a waste. It IS what the 1% wants. We CAN co opt one of the parties. We must try! Support OWS! Vote out climate change denying politicians.

[-] -1 points by able132 (50) 2 years ago

Correction:

Support OWS: Vote out ALL Democrats and Republicans.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

You are on auto. Support OWS. Give us a chance. things will be better even for you republicans. But you must turn away from the dark side.

[-] -2 points by able132 (50) 2 years ago

Fuck the Republicans. Fuck the Democrats. And fuck Demopublican plants like you, VQkag. Factsrfun admitted he's a Democratic Party hack. Why don't you do the same thing and get the fuck out of this forum...

http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/americans-have-three-choices-in-november-bushbamne/#comment-739976

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

You are apoplectic. Take a breath. Get a grip. Schoolyard bullying tactics are useless on line. And you emulate your republican nominee. You gonna cut my hair off? I can't be silenced with these vulgar childish attacks. Support OWS. Vote out pro bully politicians.

[-] -3 points by JoeWinters (47) 2 years ago

Are you a communist now?

[-] 3 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Anarcho-syndicalist. haha. Point?

[-] -2 points by JoeWinters (47) 2 years ago

You said - "Trickle down economics is causing the problem." And, every political system except a theoretical implementation of communism or anarcho-syndicalism uses a form of trickle down economics. In other words, the only way to avoid this would be that everyone has the same amount of money. Personally, I think trickle down economics is the only way to go. However, I prefer an approach like socialism in which the government also helps the poor (they don't only get money from trickling down) as opposed to a hard core capitalist only approach like US has at the moment.

[-] 3 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Not true. Trickle down economics is the concerted effort to concentrate wealth while structuring labor to depend on these element sort of like a parent or micro governance. However, this is closer to socialism than it is capitalism because you create a power center and the population is depended on that power center. With the concentration of wealth at the power center, it stand to reason that payment for labor will be rationed so as to not deflate the wealth of the power center leaving a pay system in which workers make only what they need to functionally exist.

What is the difference between communism and socialism? Very fucking little and the few differences are subjective at best. Communism is the resource based economy of yesterday, a fancy word for socialism in order to escape the preconceived notions of the word "socialism".

Even is a socialist economy, you exchange value notes for good, that is capitalism minus the freedom of choice to make more money and ownership of that which you worked to gain. Without the right to retain a certain amount of what I work for, I have no reason to excel. Without socialism, those who do not excel are left to wither as animals. It requires a combination of both capitalism and socialism to create a healthy society. Right tool for the job.

Nancy Reagan is a known communist

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I think economic theories are like tools. You don't use a hammer when you need a wrench.

Yes, trickle down, to some degree is appropriate depending on the circumstances. But it is a matter of degrees. Based on the circumstances at a point in time. Changing circumstances calls for changing measures. At this point in time, more trickle down is inappropriate.

Trickle down would be entirely appropriate if taxes and regulations were the main problem. But it's not. Lack of demand is the main problem. There is not enough spending by consumers, because they don't have the means due to high unemployment.

See Figure D http://www.epi.org/publication/regulatory-uncertainty-phony-explanation/

If there was lack of capital and lack of capacity, leading to inflation, then yes, I would say trickle down would be entirely appropriate. But companies are flush with cash, because there is no demand to fuel investments in their companies. They are sitting on cash and idle capacity. They can shed labor. But not equipment. And idle manufacturing capacity is huge drag. Businesses don't need tax incentives to fund capital investments. They have plenty of cash and idle capacity.

There is lack of lending on the part of banks, because they are busy playing casino gambling games. That's why the big banks need to be broken up. To get their capital moving through the system again.

http://dallasfed.org/assets/documents/fed/annual/2011/ar11.pdf

I don't believe in hardcore absolute anything. Capitalism or socialism.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

lack of capital and lack of capacity

Leads to deflation, not inflation.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Huh? If the system were contrained, lack of capacity, lack of supply to meet demand - will lead to higher prices.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

If there was lack of capital and lack of capacity, leading to inflation, then yes

If you cannot separate capital from wages from product, than you are not ready to have this discussion. You cannot just throw all segments of an economic system in a blender and start tossing out big words and expect it to mean anything.

You said lack of capital. Lower levels of capital causes the currency to increase in value which in turn decreases the value of physical assets in comparison to the currency. This is called deflation.

Capacity is also a term used in currency and since you lead with "capital" this is the topic you chose and you made no separation to indicate otherwise.

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[-] -2 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

More simply. If supply side is the problem then you use supply side principles to fix it. Like trickle down. If demand side is the problem then you use demand side principles to fix it. Like Keynes.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

But what if supply & demand are both problems? Also, his rhetoric notwithstanding, Reagan's policies did not produce a "supply side" result, they took the form of a Keynesian stimulus. Since the 1980's the US has undergone deindustrialization. The only thing keeping us afloat during that period has been a credit financed buying boom (which is a classic demand side result). A truly supply side result would be building more factories, producing more goods and services, etc. Or I should say, there has been some supply side to the equation, but those new factories weren't built in the United States (indeed, US factories were shut down, and the work outsourced). So really, we should probably leave poor Keynes and Hayek out of this mess :)

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Nope disagree. I think it would be far more valuable an investment to spend on updating infrastructure. More effective and less risky. There's nothing to say that those businesses won't fail. Businesses fail all the time. And small, even medium size business will be in competition with mega corps and China. Good infrastructure doesn't fail and doesn't compete with China.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

I mean, I think we need to do both. If we had a value added tax with the conventional exemptions, our manufacturers would be able to compete with China. Germany reacted to the 2008 financial crisis in a remarkable way. They subsidized their manufacturing firms so those companies wouldn't lay off workers (and this was an astounding success). If we nurtured our domestic producers in the same way, I see no reason why we shouldn't expect similar results.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I see what you mean. If we build it they will come. I can see how that works to some degree. But it is still dependent on consumers having the capability/disposable income to absorb the supply. To some degree, since consumer spending is constrained, a smartphone purchase is cannablizing another item. However, the smartphone innovation itself has certainly contributed to some job creation. Innovation creates jobs. I would say that there is not enough innovation overall to compensate for lower level jobs lost overseas.

But Says law is not working today, in that - a rational businessman will never hoard money; he will promptly spend any money he gets "for the value of money is also perishable." Some of the money seems to be being spent on exhorbitant CEO salaries and bonuses. Rather than circulating in a broader way through the economy. So Keynes theories should be applied to counteract this, no?

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Say's didn't deny the possibility of hoarding, and he didn't even deny the utility of social programs. I think an updated hybrid of these old theories could look something like this. As a stimulus we could have a program that gives either loans or grants to enable workers to reopen closed down factories, funded by a value added tax (and some borrowing).

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I hear ya. But we don't need government incentives (ie:lower tax rates) to help stimulate/increase supply. This chart shows that taxes or regulation is not the problem. See Fig D.

http://www.epi.org/publication/regulatory-uncertainty-phony-explanation/

Demand creates supply. Supply doesn't supply for it's own sake. It only supplies to meet demand. Unless that supply is constrained by some factor like cash/credit availability or labor. Increased demand in the form of government stimulus will create the need for more supply to meet that demand. Eventually it loops back around. Where supply feeds into demand.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

higher tax rates on those excess money

to provide the people will means to replenish the supply general population

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

The term supply creates its own demand is a restatement of Say's law. Think about it ... did you want an iphone before it was invented? Did you think a tablet was necessary before it became available for purchase?

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

In what way is supply a problem? There is excess labor and idle capacity.

I agree with you that the credit boom masked many problems. 30 years of middle class wage stagnation was compensated for with debt. And offshore production certainly contributed.

We need a demand side stimulus - ie: more government "investment" for infrastructure projects. The first stimulus was not enough. Much of it went to keeping some current public workers in their jobs. Which was necessary, but it just wasn't enough.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

I think we need infrastructure investment anyway (even apart from the economic stimulus aspect of it), especially expansion of our public university systems and building a new energy system, but we also need to increase supply (as in, production). As it's said ... supply creates its own demand.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

the stimulus should have directly provided government jobs

[-] -1 points by ClaraSprings (91) 2 years ago

You're hogging the best comments section!

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Almost famous. Too much coffee. Be nice. : )

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (17737) 2 years ago

Looking at this thread - d'you think you have a calming effect on him ? I do ! pax et lux et al ...

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

I'm independent. Didn't you say you were socialist.? Is asking me about communism political talk. Are you anti communist? Support OWS. Vote out anti buffett rule politicians

[-] -1 points by JoeWinters (47) 2 years ago

That question was for April who is a socialist like myself. Communism is not the same thing as socialism. Yeah, I would say I'm sort of anti-communist in that I believe in a form of controlled capitalism. I favor the approach of countries like Sweden, Canada, Norway. That sort of thing.

Yap, I use political talk sometimes and should be banned from the forum just like you because of that.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (17737) 2 years ago

Hmmm ... tres interessant et :

Predisposed or otherwise to your antics, as I saw and read this thread - I'm honour-bound to provide the links above but I'd appreciate it if 'U and A' would stop trying to confuse me & get me to fall off my chair!

per aspera ad astra ....

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

You're the one that posted these links that he liked so well. I would say you have quite the calming effect on him. Actually, he's always calm. Except when the stupid conspiracy theorists are posting their kooky lunatic stuff.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (17737) 2 years ago

He rests my case for me and I even up-voted you both ! It's all getting a bit too weird around here, I'm off for a lay down !! Until we all next get grumpy with each other and I'll let you mop his fevered brow now !!!

waay too weird for latin ...

[-] 1 points by ClaraSprings (91) 2 years ago

No, no, you calm me...

Hey, I was wondering when the elections in US will take place. I don't watch FOX or CNN so I haven't kept a tab on that. What are the polls suggesting?

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Nov. 6. Pres. Obama is ahead in projected electoral votes. Popular vote seems pretty close. He's way ahead with women voters, and on some social issues, and way ahead in likability. On the economy it's a draw I think. Many people are really nervous with this economy. So I think people wonder if different economic policies like Romney's might work better. This is where independents will be very important. To convince them, that although the economy isn't near where it should be, demand side principles would be far more helpful than more supply side principles.

Pres. Obama seems to be having a tough time getting back the younger voters that came out strong for him in the last election. Lack of enthusiasm and disillusionment. It's hard I think because of political and economic realities. ie: He can't go hard after Wall Street because it could create another meltdown. People are angry and want justice. But he just can't do that right now the way people want. Without risking another metldown. And the economy has been so badly damaged. Can't turn economic armageddon, on top of 30 years of middle class wage stagnation, around overnight. People need to be realistic.

The Congress will be super important to get control of. I'm not sure how likely this will be. There seems to be some backlash against Tea Party candidates which could translate to backlash against Repubs as a whole. Hopefully.

Romney may have a hard time getting the usual enthusiasm from right wing religious wingnuts. Which may end in a draw being the Pres. probably won't get the same enthusiasm from the youth vote.

Minorities (Latinos, LGBT) hate Romney. No way they're voting Romney. And many polls suggest that a candidate cannot win without Latino and women voters. And Pres. Obama has both of them on his side. For now anyway. If that sticks, and the right wing religious wingnuts stay home, Pres. Obama should be ok.

But Romney hasn't picked his VP yet either. The Repub convention is Aug 27. The VP pick will be before this. Speculation that it could be a woman or Latino to pick up some vote there. The leading Latino, Marco Rubio, looks like a total loser. From my perspective anyway. But given that I usually have the opposite reaction of most Republicans, the Rightwingers, might just love him to death.

[-] 1 points by JoeWinters (47) 2 years ago

Nice links.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (17737) 2 years ago

Oh God ! I'll have to contemplate being 'nicer' to you now !! Hrumph !!! verum ex absurdo ...

[ps : As April Alludes below, Peace (or creative tension!) is in danger of breaking out here.]

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (17737) 2 years ago

@DKAt : How can I tell you anything IF your comment doesn't allow a reply. I'm not being manipulated I hope and I can bear grudges and do grumpy as well as the next man (& better than a lot!) but I have a soft heart and forgiving nature - especially for the contrite and repentant sinners (& he is Far from any of that as yet, lol!). Plus inter-personal details aside, 'The Information Function' takes precedence. I'd've thought that you'd understand that & don't let 'The Personal' impinge on 'The Political' IF at all possible.

Hate divides and Love - unites and as a natural born human personage - I'm capable of both but I know which is better.

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Hooray! : )

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

there are billboard sign size ordinances in San Diego

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (34870) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

shadz - I thought you knew my sense of humor by now. I was kidding and thought you would get a chuckle considering who you had made your comment to.

And you know as well as I that a comment thread ends where a comment thread ends.

Pulling my leg in return? {:-])

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[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (34870) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

shadz I had no idea that you could be manipulated like that. Tell me it aint so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

But your still going to attack me for using political talk that you disagree with? Support OWS. Vote out anti socialist politicians. <---- ok?

[-] -1 points by JoeWinters (47) 2 years ago

Nah, I was just kidding about that. I destroyed my bot code after defeating TIOUAISE a few months back. I destroyed it because I didn't want to be tempted to use it again. I was just kidding because someone else is using bots now and I wanted to fool DKAtoday as to who that person was. He thinks it's me you see. Only jart knows that's not true ;-) Funny little jart sometimes.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

I think it's you too. You did threaten me. Is it illegal to attack someones computer? Does that matter to you. support OWS. Vote out pro computer attack politicians

[-] -3 points by JoeWinters (47) 2 years ago

Is it illegal to attack someones computer? Does that matter to you. support OWS.

Is it illegal to use civil disobedience as a main tactic? Does that matter to you? Support OWS.

Hint: OWS is not about legal tactics. This is a forum of anarchists. We don't believe in laws.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Then you don't mind going to jail for these things.? support OWS. Vote out anti alt energy politicians

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[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (34870) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

What????????????????


[-] 1 points by JoeWinters (13) 28 minutes ago

Is it illegal to attack someones computer? Does that matter to you. support OWS.

Is it illegal to use civil disobedience as a main tactic? Does that matter to you? Support OWS.

Hint: OWS is not about legal tactics. This is a forum of anarchists. We don't believe in laws. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink


Excerpt from post :

http://occupywallst.org/forum/support-the-movements-against-greed-corruption-and/

Anarchy: A Definition

What is anarchism?

Anarchism is the movement for social justice through freedom. It is concrete, democratic and egalitarian. It has existed and developed since the seventeenth century, with a philosophy and a defined outlook that have evolved and grown with time and circumstance. Anarchism began as what it remains today: a direct challenge by the underprivileged to their oppression and exploitation. It opposes both the insidious growth of state power and the pernicious ethos of possessive individualism, which, together or separately, ultimately serve only the interests of the few at the expense of the rest.

Anarchism promotes mutual aid, harmony and human solidarity, to achieve a free, classless society - a cooperative commonwealth. Anarchism is both a theory and practice of life. Philosophically, it aims for perfect accord between the individual, society and nature. In an anarchist society, mutually respectful sovereign individuals would be organised in non-coercive relationships within naturally defined communities in which the means of production and distribution are held in common.

Anarchists, are not simply dreamers obsessed with abstract principles. We know that events are ruled by chance, and that people’s actions depend much on long-held habits and on psychological and emotional factors that are often anti-social and usually unpredictable. We are well aware that a perfect society cannot be won tomorrow. Indeed, the struggle could last forever! However, it is the vision that provides the spur to struggle against things as they are, and for things that might be.

Whatever the immediate prospects of achieving a free society, and however remote the ideal, if we value our common humanity then we must never cease to strive to realise our vision. If we settle for anything less, then we are little more than beasts of burden at the service of the privileged few, without much to gain from life other than a lighter load, better feed and a cosier berth.

Ultimately, only struggle determines outcome, and progress towards a more meaningful community must begin with the will to resist every form of injustice.

In general terms, this means challenging all exploitation and defying the legitimacy of all coercive authority. If anarchists have one article of unshakeable faith then it is that, once the habit of deferring to politicians or ideologues is lost, and that of resistance to domination and exploitation acquired, then ordinary people have a capacity to organise every aspect of their lives in their own interests, anywhere and at any time, both freely and fairly.

Anarchism encompasses such a broad view of the world that it cannot easily be distilled into a formal definition. Michael Bakunin, the man whose writings and example over a century ago did most to transform anarchism from an abstract critique of political power into a theory of practical social action, defined its fundamental tenet thus: In a word, we reject all privileged, licensed, official, and legal legislation and authority, even though it arise from universal suffrage, convinced that it could only turn to the benefit of a dominant and exploiting minority, and against the interests of the vast enslaved majority.

Anarchists do not stand aside from popular struggle, nor do they attempt to dominate it. They seek to contribute to it practically whatever they can, and also to assist within it the highest possible levels both of individual self-development and of group solidarity. It is possible to recognise anarchist ideas concerning voluntary relationships, egalitarian participation in decision-making processes, mutual aid and a related critique of all forms of domination in philosophical, social and revolutionary movements in all times and places.

Elsewhere, the less formal practices and struggles of the more indomitable among the propertyless and disadvantaged victims of the authority system have found articulation in the writings of those who on brief acquaintance would appear to be mere millenarian dreamers. Far from being abstract speculations conjured out of thin air, such works have, like all social theories, been derived from sensitive observation. They reflect the fundamental and uncontainable conviction nourished by a conscious minority throughout history that social power held over people is a usurpation of natural rights: power originates in the people, and they alone have, together, the right to wield it.


de·moc·ra·cy/diˈmäkrəsē/ Noun:

A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives. A state governed in such a way.


re·pub·lic/riˈpəblik/ Noun: A state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president...


un·ion/ˈyo͞onyən/ Noun:

The action or fact of joining together or being joined together, esp. in a political context. A state of harmony or agreement: "they live in perfect union".

Wherein lies the conflict?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

When you get to close to making a point, he will shift to nonsense. He only spells out his true opinion when his guard is down but his main goal here is to fill his Id by manipulating people. Sort of like how a bully fills their Id by physically pushing people around, they do it to feel important by showing physical strength. Thrasy makes himself feel important through intellectual strength. Whether that means making a point when he can or preventing you from making one is indifferent. Recognizing the difference will enable you to guide his behavior to a more constructive nature. It's basic insecurity and your not recognizing it makes you look very young, and a profitable target in his eyes.

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[-] -3 points by able132 (50) 2 years ago

Correction:

Support OWS: Vote out ALL Democrats and Republicans.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

so you are against the buffett rule? Support OWS. Vote out anti buffett rule politicians!

[+] -4 points by able132 (50) 2 years ago

Correction:

Support OWS: Vote out ALL Democrats and Republicans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC311qHA1xA

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

able132 and his friends have threatened me with a bot attack. Please help! Oh no! mr slugo!

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[-] -2 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

Stop squirming and ANSWER the question...

Explain how California has 12% of the population, but 33% of the nation's welfare cases.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

I'm not squirming. Its a big state! I can't and won't attempt to explain that disparity. Why should I/ Perhaps they have better services for the poor. Perhaps poor people believe there is more opportunity there because of its size. Whatever, if we fix the income disparity between the wealthy and the rest of us, the cost of welfare services will decrease because the number of poor will decrease.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (34870) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

" the cost of welfare services will decrease because the number of poor will decrease "

And the number of contributors to the economy will increase. Individual Tax burden can reduce as more contributors enter the economy.

[-] -1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Yes exactly. You understand. Why don't they?

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (34870) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

They do. But attackers are just that. All they care about is muddying the waters and sowing discontent and descent and division.

They attack people with good thoughts and contributions as they want to prevent unity.

The last thing the corrupt greedy criminals want to see is a vast public united in common cause to defeat them.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Joe winters threatened to attack my computer with a bot. Should I be worried?

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

jart is the programmer for this website. She knows Thras. Everyone here knew he was using the bots on the conspiracy theorists. He used to post funny pictures in their posts too. He told people he was doing it. So I presume jart knew too. And the mods. If they were paying any attention at all. They knew.

http://www.gaycitynews.com/articles/2011/11/10/gay_city_news/news/doc4ebace95a0c26985577656.txt

Where Thras would get himself in trouble would be when he would criticise anarchy, or get too critical of OWS itself. Many many of his posts about this were deleted or banned.

I just don't want you to be unneccessarily worried that Thras would damage your computer or something crazy like that! He would never do that. He doesn't need to be on a watch list! The worst thing he ever did was downvote conspiracy theorists and put funny pictures in their posts. It was actually really funny.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Oh it's funny. He has a good friend in you even though you don't know him personally. It's odd that an authority figure here would approve of these kind of threats. Do you think if a stranger threatened you, you would take it as a joke? I'm not from canada. I'm from Brooklyn New York and we have a certain way to deal with threats. I know I haven't done anything wrong to deserve this kind of treatment. no body has to defend my actions as just a joke. but I guess as long as it's ok with you and Jart who am I to judge. I guess I'm supposed to let people treat me like a piece of dirt. And then laugh.!!

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago
[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

No, I haven't talked to him about it. I did tell him this morning that I like you though. That I thought you were a good Left supporter. Thats all though. And I read some of the stuff he said to you. He told you would attack you with bots because you're talking about voting for Democrats right? He was just making a point, in a kind of roundabout way. That OWS is about anarchy, not politics.

He's definately not Republican. He's from Canada and he's big into socialism. Canada is alot more socialist than the US.

If he said some of the things that I am saying also, it's only because I know him pretty well. He's been around here as long as I have. And I did read some of your conversation with him.

Vulgar abusive insults? That doesn't sound like him at all. Send me a link. What did he say that was vulgar? He doesn't hate you! If he hates you because you don't like Republicans then he would hate me too! And he likes me. : )

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Oh OK. i guess if you say so. You seem so nice. maybe I should stop the police investigation. y'think? I mean they love bustin OWS people for anything that sounds like terrorism. certainly they might put him on a watch list. I suppose they wouldn't be able to find him. Hey do you know someone named jart.? Joe says that jart is some authority and allows joe to attack peoples computers. Do you know anything about that.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

my car was impounded over a clerical(computer) error in the LA courts

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

y'think it was Joe.?

[-] -1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

don't know

perhaps Joe tipped Krumpke or Krumpke tipped Turpin

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

He's never had reason to threaten me because I'm not into conspiracy theories. Yes I've seen him follow through on his threats. He warns conspiracy theorists to stop posting conspiracy theories. Then he downvotes and collapses the posts.

Honestly, he was just joking around with you about attacking you for talking about politics. He was just using a little sarcastic humor to make a point. OWS is about anarchy, not politics. He was just making a point. He likes to talk about anarchy.

He knows people here talk about politics all the time. He just chose you to make a little point is all. That means he likes you. He wouldn't really use bots on you because you're talking about poiltics.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Well I didn't espouse conspiracies, why would he threaten me? Didn't sound like he was kiddin. And if you heard the vulgar abusive insults you wouldn't say he liked me. No I think he hates me because I don't like republicans. He wouldn't admit it but I think he IS a republican. In any event he did say some of the things you said also. did you guys talk about this?

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I know him from here. Not personally. He's on the other side of the earth from me. But what I know of him from here, he's a very very nice person. That's just my opinion of course. But I tell you this based on what I have seen here. He downvotes conspiracy theorists. That's it. And he's always honest and forthcoming about what he does and what he has done. If he tells you not to worry you can believe him. He was just joking around. He won't do anything to you. I have a calming affect on him. : )

See.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/its-no-wonder-california-is-broke/#comment-740287

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

If you say so. i guess I can trust you. You did say you like me. So you haven't been threatened? And you don't know of any follow through of threats on his part?

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

V, he can't do anything to your computer. And he wouldn't do that even if he could. Besides, he's just joking around with you right now.

His old bots are totally harmless. They only ever downvoted posts. Nothing more. He would like give a -10 to conspiracy theorists to collapse their stupid posts. It was his way of practicing Direct Action against conspiracy theorists breaking the forum rules. OWS is all about practicing Direct Action. That was the whole point. That's it. Totally harmless.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Oh so you know him. You can be a character witness at the trial! ;)

Have you heard of him threatening other people without following through? Has he threatened you? He mentioned one person he attacked but I forget the name.

[-] -1 points by ClaraSprings (91) 2 years ago

Sorry if I scared you mate. No, you don't have to be worried. Not because it's impossible, but because I wouldn't do it. Like April says below, I only ever down voted the stupid conspiracy theorists. But, yeah, if you don't have security software on your computer you should. Just so you know, there's no way I could target your machine specifically unless I knew your IP. It would be possible to create a link to a virus download, but then I wouldn't know who would end up clicking on that link. Anyways, I don't do viruses. I just down vote and stuff like that. Only conspiracy theorists. I don't have anything against democrats.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Yeah right. Who are you?. Don't know clarasprings. you speak as if you are joe winter. But he clearly hates democrats. I haven't espoused conspiracies but Joe winter intends to attack me. Do you know him too?

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (34870) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Do not disregard it. You should have a good internet security software running. If you don't? Get off the site close your apps and get a good security software running.

Copy the threat and report ( e-mail ) it to the web site abuse.

Please email abuse@occupywallst.org when people are breaking the rules.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

ok. I Will. Thanks.

[-] -2 points by JoeWinters (47) 2 years ago

So, you believe in perfect economic equity? Then why vote for the Democrats? They also prone capitalism. You should be voting for the communist party, or fight in the street with the OWS anarchists who want to replace the government with anarcho-syndicalism.

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

I didn't I support "perfect economic equity" Thats you dishonestly twisting my words. I am not a communist. I have made my money through capitalism! I don't think I'm an anarchist but I am a little unsure since I get conflicting definitions about that. Is it ok if I was these things or would you attack me if I were? Are these the right answers? Please don't attack me. I'll be good.

[Removed]

[-] -2 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

So it's a big state. That doesn't explain anything. The percentages don't add up.

You won't attempt to explain it because you have a piss-poor understanding of basic economics. Your understanding of income disparity and economics is not the cure, it's the CAUSE. Stop being a mindless drone and get a clue.

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

your insults betray your lack of valid arguments. School yard bullying tactics are useless on line. And they show you to be a republican like your nominee. you can't silence me with name calling. And you haven't disputed my points. Support OWS. Vote out anti poor people politicians

[-] -1 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

Sounds like you ran out of logic, reason and debate skills a few years back.

Keep DRONING on, shortbus.

[-] -1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

I don't have to resort to name calling. i don't blame the victims. Greed and selfishness lead to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to the dark side. turn away from evil. support the 99%, vote out anti buffett rule pols.

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Half the country is at or near poverty level. So right. They don't pay income tax. Can you say blood from a rock? They pay plenty in proportion to their working poor wages in the form of payroll tax, sales tax and other taxes and fees.

Helping those less fortunate is not creating slackers. It is recognizing the reality that there is only 1 job for every 4 people unemployed.

Of course it has to be paid for. And the sooner we get rid of the ridiculous notion of trickle down theory, and the wealthy are the job creators - that is the cause of this problem - we'll have to keep paying for it.

Of course CA is in trouble. They were hit hardest by the housing crisis. Plus they have that silly referendum voting process that has been screwing up their budget process and decision making for many years before the housing crisis.

[-] -3 points by peacup (-44) from Murray, KY 2 years ago

Half the country is NOT near poverty. You wish it were, but it isn't. Stop spewing BS statistics.

The Kalifornya state legislature has been democrat controlled for 38 out of the last forty years (1995 and 96 being the exception). Now business and anyone with some brains is saying FU and moving out of the state along with their assets. THAT'S why they're in trouble.

Socialism works until you run out of other people's money.

[-] 3 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

What am I, your personal research assistant?

"About 97.3 million Americans fall into a low-income category... Together with the 49.1 million who fall below the poverty line and are counted as poor, they number 146.4 million, or 48 percent of the U.S. population." Census Bureau

I stand corrected. It's not half. It's 48%.

Blood from a rock Cupcake.

I never said anything about the Dems in CA. You incorrectly seem to blame the Dems for CA problems. It has nothing to do with the Dems being in control. If it were not for Prop 13 and the idiotic initiative/referendum process, CA would not be nearly so bad off as they are now.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1910985,00.html

http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2011/12/daily-shows-jon-oliver-on-californias-dysfunctional-initiative-process/

I'm not arguing for socialism. Unless you think Keynesian policies are socialism. I'm for less trickle down and more Keynes.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

I think what you really advocate is "Rooseveltian" policies. That is, if you want economic development projects to create jobs and improve public infrastructure. Here is something I read about Keynes recently:

"Now, Keynes's system is based upon the British Empire, in terms of system. Keynes was a fascist. That's his background, as he said in the German edition, which is the first edition of his General Theory, published in 1938 in Berlin. He said he preferred to have his book published in Germany, at that time, because it would have a better reception and be more applicable in Nazi Germany, than it would be in a democratic country. And he was right."

For more on this: http://www.larouchepub.com/pr_lar/2008/lar_pac/080314lar_on_keynes.html

Keynes believed in privately owned central banks, like our Federal Reserve, which many now recognize is the cause of many of our economic problems today.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Absolutely more FDR and a new WPA. Not the half assed stimulus that basically just kept some teachers and firemen in existing jobs. Not that it wasn't important. But it wasn't nearly enough.

I didn't know that about Keynes.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

What is WPA?

Have you heard about NAWAPA? Its the mega Roosevelt style project for today. Actually, the plan came out of JKF's administration years ago. As you may know dwindling water supplies are a problem in many states.

Yet, half the fresh water which falls as rain comes down in Alaska and then runs off into the ocean. NAWAPA would be the biggest aqueduct system in history that would bring that water down from Alaska to be used in the central US desert.

After being used for agriculture, the water would evaporate and be dispersed all around the US as rain fall, helping plants and trees to grow in both agricultural and wild areas.

I've heard it would create anywhere from 5 to 30 million good paying jobs, both white collar and blue collar.

Lots more info here:

http://larouchepac.com/infrastructure

[Removed]

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Let me see, hmmm, the 2009 population of the Los Angeles metropolitan area was about three times the estimated population of Kaintucky in 2011. That might explain some of your listings, aside from the fact that you included the California Universities and Colleges, the least of which is probably greater than the best of Kaintucky's.

To be blunt, right now Kentucky has a budget deficit of $32 billion for approximately 4.7 million people, while California has a budget deficit of approximately $17 billion for a population of almost 40 million. Duh, which state do you think is handling the current economic crisis better?

Many of the government boards in California are standard government regulatory agencies. I'm sure even a state like Kaintucky licenses physicians, chiropracters, acupuncturists, etc, etc, etc.

[-] 1 points by justiceforzim (-17) 2 years ago

I believe Thrassy would call your post an ad hominem. What does KY have to do with the OP?

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Actually I believe my point is clear, but I can make it elementary. On a per capita basis California is no more "broke" than many other states including the original poster's designated home state.

[-] -2 points by Cubs101 (-49) 2 years ago

And don't forget the California LGBT Commission on Illegal Gay Aliens Bullet trains

[+] -4 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Are you homophobic?

[+] -4 points by Cubs101 (-49) 2 years ago

what does homophobic mean?

[-] -2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Afraid. Are you afraid of gay people?

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

gay people are no more violent than anyone else

and people in general are not violent

[-] -3 points by Cubs101 (-49) 2 years ago

no of course not. Why do you ask?

[-] -1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

your above comment regarding LGBT commission

[-] -1 points by Cubs101 (-49) 2 years ago

i was making fun of California and wasteful government spending.

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Do you hate the gays?

[-] -1 points by Cubs101 (-49) 2 years ago

No. Do you?
Do you hate mexicans? from your response to my previous text, you seem to think all Mexicans are illegal aliens.

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

I am the 99%. I love all our people. support OWS Vote out anti gay, anti immigrant politicians

[-] -1 points by Cubs101 (-49) 2 years ago

good for you. i'm sure that your mother is very proud of you.