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Forum Post: Iron law of oligarchy

Posted 7 years ago on Dec. 12, 2011, 2 a.m. EST by vothmr (82) from Harrisonburg, VA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy

how does the OWS movement respond to this?

18 Comments

18 Comments


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[-] 1 points by fuckingAman (11) from Köln, Nordrhein-Westfalen 7 years ago

we have made a lot of progress in the last centuries. there is hope. we have to find out what the problems are and how we can solve them. we have to approach all this with spirit and reason not with irrational, fundamentalist believes. (like the iron law of oligarchy)

[-] 1 points by BlueRose (1437) 7 years ago

So it all ends up as oligarchy, and even unions cause this? I think then the solution is screaming for government intervention, which still won't work until voters and politicians themselves become more conscientious.

So how to get people to care, be less greedy? Certainly not religion... I think it must be science, education, LESS WORK, more FREE TIME, interaction with one another, that will lead to a sense of greater good, less consumerism, and equality.

Basic needs should be met for everyone through advances in technology. Then we will have much more time and clearer minds to think about these problems.

[-] 1 points by vothmr (82) from Harrisonburg, VA 7 years ago

but if you subscribe to Karl Marx then the technology will cause class divisions which leads inexorably to a struggle between the classes. every movement, organization, family, club, team, any group of people has hierarchy and the larger they get, the more that's necessary. OWS should organize or step aside.

[-] 1 points by BlueRose (1437) 7 years ago

OWS is doing fine right now.

[-] 0 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 7 years ago

You may have data to prove that OWS is doing fine or you may simply want to believe it, but there appears to be zero change in the lives of the 99% and none on the horizon unless you think that protesters, all dressed up with nowhere to go, will give audience to Dem 'hope and change'. Have you read the 99% Declaration?

https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/

[-] -2 points by vothmr (82) from Harrisonburg, VA 7 years ago

i don't see any examples of progress. just nasty camps and people bitching without any ideas or and plans, just complaining and camping. there is nothing being accomplished. get organized and accomplish something or save the police some time and effort and go away

[-] 1 points by fuckingAman (11) from Köln, Nordrhein-Westfalen 7 years ago

change doesnt happen over night and not with the first attempt.

[-] 1 points by BlueRose (1437) 7 years ago

Save me time, just say you're trolling.

[-] 1 points by vothmr (82) from Harrisonburg, VA 7 years ago

im definitely not trolling. if you have read any of my other posts you would see that they are always backed up with facts. this one however is a matter of opinion. it is the exception to rather than the rule by which my posts are written

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 7 years ago

It happened instantly with OWS and yet they, the NYCGA, write 'official' vision statements published on an 'official' website saying 'we' are leaderlesss and not political. It's simply a lie, unintentional or not.

[-] 1 points by vothmr (82) from Harrisonburg, VA 7 years ago

what is simply a lie?

[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 7 years ago

try this little test: tell someone you heard there was going to be a big announcement from OWS tonight then ask them where they think it will come from or where should you look to watch it. NYCGA or this website will likely be your answer. Leaderless, yea right, whatever NYCGA says?

[-] 1 points by ronimacarroni (1089) 7 years ago

"At the time Michels formulated his Law, he was an anarcho-syndicalist.[2] He later gave up his socialist convictions and became an important ideologue of Benito Mussolini's fascist regime in Italy, teaching economics at the University of Perugia.[3][4]"

I'm sure his research had no bias. sarcasm

[-] 2 points by vothmr (82) from Harrisonburg, VA 7 years ago

the point he makes is still valid. all organizations need centralized leadership in some form. that's why we have governments in every nation and when there is a failed state or a weak government, militant organizations or community LEADERS take shape. it is natural for their to be hierarchy in a group. by retarding that, you are limiting the potential of your organization by being massively inefficient. also, just because of his political beliefs doesn't mean he can't have a valid point. Hitler had some pretty freaking good ideas about economics.

[-] 1 points by fuckingAman (11) from Köln, Nordrhein-Westfalen 7 years ago

why do you make the assumption that organization without centralisation of power or leaders is impossible or inefficient? there is a difference between having leadership or representation or having minimal coercing or massive coercion. and one could argue that with todays technological means its very feasible to have things like large scale self management/self gouvernance. the iron law of oligarchy is basically based on the assumption that unless you have some perfect utopia it all goes to shit. i think human affairs are far too complicated to make such an assumption.

[-] 1 points by ronimacarroni (1089) 7 years ago

Leaders are more efficient, but they can become corrupt with power.

[-] 1 points by fuckingAman (11) from Köln, Nordrhein-Westfalen 7 years ago

why are they more efficient? do they have superior intelligence and wisdom or what?

[-] 1 points by fuckingAman (11) from Köln, Nordrhein-Westfalen 7 years ago

if you get too angry with your social environment you can end up as a fascist..