Forum Post: Independent Testing Of Rossi's E-Cat Cold Fusion Device: Maybe The World Will Change After All
Posted 10 years ago on May 21, 2013, 8:11 a.m. EST by BradB
from Washington, DC
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
We'll see if it's real ....
Italian engineer, Andrea Rossi, and his E-Cat project, a device that produces heat through a process called a Low Energy Nuclear Reaction (LENR).
Very briefly, LENR, otherwise called cold fusion, is a technique that generates energy through low temperature (far lower than hot fusion temperatures which are in the range of tens off thousands of degrees) reactions that are not chemical. Most importantly, LENR is, theoretically, much safer, much simpler, and many orders of magnitude cheaper than hot fusion. Rather than explaining LENR in detail here please see my original posting for a more complete explanation.
My next post on this topic was here on Forbes a few days later and, as the labyrinthine and occasionally ridiculous saga developed, I tried to sort fact from fiction in a series of posts (see the list at the end of this posting) which covered everything from unconvincing demos, through an Australian businessman offering Rossi $1 million to show independently tested proof, to other players in the LENR market showing interesting results.
Electrolysis of water generates Hydrogen and Oxygen, right ? Which is amongst other things and for all intents and purposes - rocket fuel, right ?! The required electrical current could come from solar / photo-voltaic panels, so light can help split water, right ?!! So with wind, wave, solar, geo-thermal, fermentation of plant material for alcohol fuel etc., etc., etc. abundant and free energy for all is now possible, right ?!!!
Now consider that "big business" in the shape of The Energy Corporations & The Banks, are actually inherently opposed to sustainable and renewable power because in reality that would, should & could tend towards 'free power for all' & so how would they then 'sell' it to their share-holders and financiers ?!I
'Free and sustainable and renewable and abundant' are actually antithetical to Corporate Crapitalism which thrives on faux scarcity in the midst of actual abundance in a blind pursuit of purely private profit !
veritas vos liberabit ...
Look up Brown's gas. The energy in, is more than the energy out, in gas.
Not an issue when it's free energy in.
Brown's gas key issues:
It requires 1000 degrees to operate
The energy required to generate the oxyhydrogen
always exceeds the energy released by combusting it.
Many forms of oxyhydrogen lamps have been described, such as the limelight, which used an oxyhydrogen flame to heat a piece of lime to white hot incandescence. Because of the explosiveness of the oxyhydrogen, limelights have been replaced by electric lighting.
the technology is very old .
it is very hard to use at 1000 degrees,
it cannot "create" energy
If you have a "free energy" solar device that can "execute" this process by dumping the solar energy into the "free" fuel at 1000 degrees, the final energy output will be LESS than what you will have if you just use the solar "free energy" directly.
I did say "more energy in, than energy out" in my first post.
There's been commercial-sized Brown's gas generator/welding units available for decades. They're about the size of a large mig or tig welding unit.
Not sure about the 1000 degree issue. I watched a guy fill a clear pipe with this gas, and it was ignited with a spark plug, and then sucked the water out of the bucket, and into the clear pipe. The gas, when used this way, simply creates a vacuum, and reverts to one drop of water.
The same gas was then used to weld steel, and then burnt a hole in a brick.
As I said, the system was set up for remote area welding, in a rural setting. The power in is from a solar panel. The time/energy ratio to gas required is a moot point.
Here's a pic of a fairly old setup. http://www.svpvril.com/CenterPhotos/page_15.html
I got my info from wiki - I believe the 1000 degrees comes from MAKING the gas - not using it. Maybe the key USAGE issue is that while it is not as efficent as using using electricity directly, it does offer huge amounts of heat where 100+ amps of electricity is not practical
I'd like to know how the splitting process occurrs, but I don't really need to see it, to appreciate that it happens. You can use mains power to make the process quicker, as you see in that photo, but the units I was looking at (about 3 grand to buy) were powered by a single photo-voltaic cell, running twelve volts through a system of coils, so the 1000 degrees at the spark, or whatever they use to split the oxy from the hydrogen is feasible, even with 12 volts.
When you're working rural, without a mains supply, the other option for welding is a gas or diesel-powered genset running an arc welder. All mounted up on a dedicated trailer, and costing upwards of ten grand.
a 1watt 12volt cell costs around $20
1000 watts seems impractical
creating the gas with mains & then transporting the gas to a re mote area to use may be a practical way to "transmit" the stored energy
Naah, you'r not familiar with the Aussie outback lifestyle. Nor the dangers of containing and transporting hydrogen gas.
And on the 1000 watts, as I said, the 12 volts runs through a series of coils, just like the ignition coil in your car engine.
These gas welding units have been on sale to the public for at least two decades, and a single 120 watt photovoltaic panel is all they use.
I am not familiar. I think part of my confusion was based on not seeing the difference between a "cell" which is very limited - and a "panel" made of as many cells as you need.
Aaah, is see. I said in the former post a panel, and then the next, a cell.
Sorry for the confusion. I have a 200 amp hour gel acid battery that can run a 1000 watt inverter at 240 volts AC for about an hour. This is all pretty old-school stuff.
Brown's gas was a new one on me, so bumping this forum-post with :
I'm going have to investigate this some more. Thanx 'B' & onyer mate.
fiat lux ...
It's probably more than thirty years old now, and I believe it was "invented" in South Australia as an answer to remote area welding needs. Plenty more uses found for it since then, of course.
Very well said.
Further, centralization of source is vital to maximize profits.
factsrfun couldn't understand that an instant switch to tesla cars was not a good thing. The surge on electrical shifts the problem. Suddenly they need oil/tar sand and coal to meet the electrical demand of charging with transpo in metropolitian areas. Our future hold a blend of different renewables, naturally.
Hydrogen/oxygen storage and distribution for moderate distances through pipelines is very practical and can use up existing automotive technology which can slowly be replaced with electric vehicles and renewable source charging.
I was excited about the liquid metal battery I learned about a few days ago, only to know again a sense of dismay after looking at current actualization of the technology and the amount of money put into it.
This cold fusion concept seems promising, but is also too mysterious to step away from the potential of failure. When ideas of this magnitude are real, the technology tends to be exposed without fear of it being stolen. That is because no one has enough of a clue to follow the same path and replicate the results of the developed concept.
The secrecy approach also manifests in sudden releases, kept totally secret, of new profound technology, every now and then, but not often.
These days, when technologies show real promise, they are developed, stolen, redeveloped then mass marketed in about 5 years.
Ceramic and high quality metal alloy engines burning alcohol & built to easily do 250k miles or more & clean burning fuel as they do, is possible right now - BUT of course built in obsolescence, unnecessary maintenance and regular replacement is really an integral part of current corporate controlled consumer crapitalism because .... ''Free and sustainable and renewable and abundant' are actually antithetical to Corporate Crapitalism which thrives on faux scarcity in the midst of actual abundance in a blind pursuit of purely private profit'' !!!
ad iudicium ...
Very true about how sustainable is not in current corporate interest. And yes, the machines are not built nearly as well as they could be and planned obsolescence is a serious problem.
I do wish ceramic engines had been developed. They were supposed to be here 10 years ago.
The big thing is our social structure. We are being trained to need corporate products to find, what used to be simple enjoyment. This is an area where psychology should be involved helping us to find more rewarding lifestyles which are also sustainable.
Somewhere the research and development for the 250k / 500k + mile ceramic / next generation allow engine within a hemp / carbon fibre body, burning alcohol - is going on and the results are NOT being patented but are being published online soon for everyone to use and develop ! Hey - whaddyamean 'wake up' ?!! We urgently need to hack and open source the future for the good of us all and asap !!!
dum spiro, spero ...
could be world changing.
cold fusion was a joke in the 90's
NASA has an article
Let me state up front that I hope this works, but ultimately, as most OWSers know - the world runs on capitalism.
If this was real, money would be raining on Rossi
Think of the hundreds of people hoaxed by bernie madoff
and the thousands of people hoaxed by jim bakker
and the millions of people hoaxed by dick cheney
further, many countries do not honor patents ... how would anyone protect their ownerships of something this big ... if it actually works...
and if does work ... many many companies & countries will be moving to copy the technology... make changes ... build their own ... etc... would you invest right now... if you saw a working prototype?
further, even if it does produce a 1 order of magnitude higher than any conventional source... it doesn't mean that it can do that at large scale ...
personally.... I know that man will conquer cold fusion & much more someday... and likely way before we conquer poverty
U.S. institutional politics, government agencies, and academic science have been caught in denial so strident they’re now shouting “no” while stark raving naked. The nakedness is because of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions or LENR, or an evolution of the famed cold fusion. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2967329/posts
LENR & Toyota: In January 1991, Pons left his tenure, and both he and Fleischmann quietly left the United States. In 1992 they resumed research with Toyota Motor Corporation's IMRA/LENR lab in France. Fleischmann left for England in 1995, and the contract with Pons was not renewed in 1998 after spending $40 million with no tangible results. The IMRA laboratory was closed in 1998 after spending £12 million on cold fusion work. Pons has made no public declarations since, and only Fleischmann continues giving talks and publishing papers.
Fleishman died in 2012. http://news.newenergytimes.net/2012/12/06/mitsubishi-reports-toyota-replication/ This though is a little more current than the 1998 info.
I have a degree in physics
I am very skeptical
Why isn't every multi-billion dollar energy company begging to test this?
I'd like to see a really independent test - by physicists who have never seen the device or Rossi
even smart people can be hoaxed
Conan- Doyle believed in talking to the dead
and I'm sure you know the Piltdown man, the faked fairy photos, and nessie
So you have a degree in physics. So does Hanno Essen. In fact he is an associate professor of theoretical physics at The Swedish Royal Institute of Technology.
Forget credentials - Why isn't every multi-billion dollar energy company begging to test this? or for that matter Apple or Microsoft?
but just in case:
On May 16, Hanno Essén, a theoretical physicist and lecturer at the Swedish Royal Institute of Technology, submitted a paper to arXiv, the physics pre-print server, and claimed that he and several co-authors performed an independent test of an E-Cat device that was built by Andrea Rossi. Essén submitted a revised version of the paper on May 20.
The authors of the paper did not perform an independent test; instead, they were participants in another Rossi demonstration and performed measurements on one of Rossi’s devices in his facility.
New Energy Times stopped counting the Rossi demonstrations after the 13th one on Feb. 12, 2012.
(See Andrea Rossi Energy Catalyzer Master Timeline.)
The authors of the paper lack full knowledge of the type and preparation of the materials used in the reactor and the modulation of input power, which, according to the paper, were industrial trade secrets.
The authors didn’t perform any calorimetry and used a method to measure temperature to extrapolate output power that neither they nor anyone in the field of low-energy nuclear reaction research has ever used to analyze for heat power or energy.
You forgot to attribute that to Krivit. Krivit seems to have an axe to grind. I'm still a bit skeptical myself, but time will tell. You should know, if you don't already, that even Steven Krivit doesn't deny the existence of LENR. By the way, Toyota is a multi billion $ co.(for one) that is researching LENR.
Why should Toyota investigate LENR if it is already "proven"
if it is "proven" where are the patents?
I am not a LENR expert, but the real world :
Cold fusion gained attention after reports in 1989 by Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann, then one of the world's leading electrochemists, that their apparatus had produced anomalous heat ("excess heat"), of a magnitude they asserted would defy explanation except in terms of nuclear processes. They further reported measuring small amounts of nuclear reaction byproducts, including neutrons and tritium. The small tabletop experiment involved electrolysis of heavy water on the surface of a palladium (Pd) electrode.
The reported results received wide media attention, and raised hopes of a cheap and abundant source of energy. Many scientists tried to replicate the experiment with the few details available. Hopes fell with the large number of negative replications, the withdrawal of many positive replications, the discovery of flaws and sources of experimental error in the original experiment, and finally the discovery that Fleischmann and Pons had not actually detected nuclear reaction byproducts.
By late 1989, most scientists considered cold fusion claims dead, and cold fusion subsequently gained a reputation as pathological science. In 1989, a review panel organized by the United States Department of Energy (DOE) found that the evidence for the discovery of a new nuclear process was not persuasive enough to start a special program, but was "sympathetic toward modest support" for experiments "within the present funding system." A second DOE review, convened in 2004 to look at new research, reached conclusions similar to the first.
Between 1992 and 1997, Japan's Ministry of International Trade and Industry sponsored a "New Hydrogen Energy (NHE)" program of US$20 million to research cold fusion. Announcing the end of the program in 1997, the director and one-time proponent of cold fusion research Hideo Ikegami stated "We couldn't achieve what was first claimed in terms of cold fusion. (...) We can't find any reason to propose more money for the coming year or for the future."
Around 1998 the University of Utah had already dropped its research after spending over $1 million, and in the summer of 1997 Japan cut off research and closed its own lab after spending $20 million.
I am fairly convinced there has been "proof of concept". See the video below. That, however, is a ways away from an economically viable product. By the way, LENR is not fusion. Seems to be a weak force phenomenon. http://www.lenr-coldfusion.com/2013/01/26/mit-cold-fusion-101-videos/ http://www.buildtheenterprise.org/cold-fusion-explained-at-mit
get a job where you can
Not sure how that relates.
And, of course, one of his early inventions....
"In 1974, he registered a patent for an incineration system. In 1978, he wrote The Incineration of Waste and River Purification, published in Milan by Tecniche Nuove. He then founded Petroldragon, a company for developing oil from waste, which collapsed in the 1990s amidst allegations of dumping toxic waste. In the early 1990s the company was disbanded following accusations of dumping environmental toxins, as well as tax fraud. Its assets were seized, together with Rossi's personal assets, and Andrea Rossi was arrested and imprisoned. Subsequently released, Rossi emigrated to the United States, and went on to found Leonardo Technology Incorporated. More than 10 years after his imprisonment, Rossi was acquitted. The government of the Lombardia region spent over forty million euros to dispose of the 70,000 tonnes of toxic waste that Petrol Dragon was storing on site."
This is old news. He made these claims in 2011 and has shown nothing for it yet. Just another vapor project he's using to try to get research funding.
"In January 2011 Andrea Rossi and Professor Sergio Focardi claimed to have successfully demonstrated commercially viable cold fusion in a device called an Energy Catalyzer, although in an interview Rossi claimed that his Energy Catalyzer does not work on the basis of cold fusion, but weak [force] nuclear reactions. The international patent application received an unfavorable international preliminary report on patentability because it seemed to "offend against the generally accepted laws of physics and established theories" and to overcome this problem the application should have contained either experimental evidence or a firm theoretical basis in current scientific theories. Journalists were not allowed to examine the core of the reactor, and there is still uncertainty about the viability of the invention."
We can't support anything that is not solar or wind. The Occupy people have said so. Shhh.
Read his Wikipedia entry with the description of his other ventures and see if you still think it's real. The guy is a major fraud!