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Forum Post: In their demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy, WTF do Americans think they know about 'Socialism' ?!

Posted 7 years ago on Nov. 8, 2011, 1:36 p.m. EST by shadz66 (19985)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

It never fails to alarm & amuse when USers expound on 'Socialism' !! WTF do they think they know about 'Socialism' that hasn't been 'taught' to them by their (mis)education system & The Propaganda & Mind-Management of the Wholly Corporate Owned MSM (ABCNNBCBS-Fux SNEWzzz et al) ?!

Societies in most countries in Europe (France, Germany, UK, The Scandinavian Countries, The Low Countries {BeNeLux} et al ...) & for further instance, New Zealand, Canada, have continued to thrive with variations on The Theme & Meme of Socialism. For example, most people in Europe do not fear illness for fear of financial factors. The National Health Service in the UK is still (despite constant dogmatic Tory attempts at Privatisation) an absolute cornerstone of life in the UK, as was until very recently - Free Education.

The 'Prophets of Profit' would have us believe that Health & Education are ethical ways to turn a profit & that access to these should be in effect, a function of wealth or 'connections' ! What utter unconscionable twaddle !!

There are are legions of people throughout Europe who will explicitly profess Socialism - because they realise that it has an Ethical Basis & Dimension above & beyond "The Dog Eat Dog" & "The Devil Take the Hindmost" attitudes of crude laissez-fair capitalism. Indeed Modern High-Finance Kaputalism (cf Corporate Banksterism) is a Busted Flush & every one who can simultaneously think & breathe - can clearly see it.

Furthermore, consider that China and India are where they are now based upon the pursuit of Socialist Policies for over 50 years & the educational & entrepreneurial talents of Indians & Chinese (& us all!) are best backed by a strong society that nurtures & enables the 99% rather than one which panders to the conceits & greed of The <1%.

Do NOT confuse 'Socialism' with State Capitalism or Totalitarian Stalinism & do try to understand why almost every 'Economist' & 'Social & Political Commentator' with any sensible critique or with anything pertinent to say about our Global 'Debtocracy' ( http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/debtocracy/ ) is increasingly referring to Karl Marx (Go On Give It A Go - You Just Might Learn Something - http://www.marxists.org/ !!).

Finally consider that in the U$A, 'Socialism' has of course been actively & avidly pursued by The 1% for themselves via : The Capture of Government by The Banksters ; Empire & Bases Abroad ; The Military-Industrial Complex (especially during the erstwhile 'Cold War' and now the new & 'hot' "Global WAR on Terror") ; The Law&Order / Prison - Industrial Complex and the various Corporate Kleptocrats, Oligarchs, Plutocrats and all those other adherents to & sufferers from - 'Ayn-Randian Psychopathology'.

Re. a historic & salutary warning from an ex-soldier, honourable man & Ex-President of The 'Usurped States of Amnesiacs', please see ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEbfVIuUtNE&feature=related ) for wise, cautionary & prescient words from 50 years ago.

Reclaim your demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy Citizens of The U$A or ... ?

ad iudicium ...

63 Comments

63 Comments


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[-] 2 points by jpaul05 (3) 7 years ago

Capitalism is the the Belief that Capital should Govern Production. Where Capital is defined as a process: M-C-M' or Money-Commodities-More Money. The assumption is that by having this circuit dictate our social organization of production, how it is we work to produce the things we all need and want, we will eventually have full liberty and equality.

Socialism is the belief that Production should be Democratically controlled. Not in a hierarchical sense. But in a decentralized, lateral sense. This way the dominant value guiding society is not maximization of profit, but a plurality of values aimed toward human need.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

@ 'jp' : Beautifully put & Thank You.

The Ideal Assumptions of Capitalism are somewhat overturned in practice & anyway where is the 'capital' in modern 'capitalism' given all but The Bankster Corporations are deep in Debt to ... 'The Bankster Corporations'

Further, these days Capitalism is in a worse crisis than 'Communism' (ie State Capitalism) was in the 80s/90s. Modern High-Finance KAPUTALism wants the biggest buck ASAP, no matter what ! This Unconscionable SH!T can't go on without "A 99% PUSHBACK" !!

'jp', I think that you will enjoy this Animated Analysis : 'Crises of Capitalism'by David Harvey : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0 !

respice ; adspice ; prospice ...

[-] 1 points by Daennera (765) from Griffith, IN 7 years ago

Socialism has, I guess, worked in other countries. It's just not for me, thank you anyways.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Lol & hmmm. + 'De nada' & thanx for your graceful reply.

For an Excellent Animation & Critique by David Harvey, "Crisis of Capitalism: Is it time to look beyond Capitalism to a New Social Order?", please try: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0 .

It will take 11 minutes of your time ... IF you dare to watch it !

ad iudicium ...

[-] 1 points by Daennera (765) from Griffith, IN 7 years ago

I understand that capitalism has been abused for the ill-gotten gain of others. I also understand that the same has been done with socialism and communism. What I am saying is that I prefer the freedom to acquire as much as possible AS WELL AS the freedom to completely and utterly fail. I will take the chance that I could starve in the streets if I'm given the chance to be richest that ever lived. That is my preferred balance.

And I doubt I'm the minority.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Again thanx for your honest reply. You do realise of course that you seem very much to be repeating 'The American Dream' (so called because one has to be asleep to believe it ! ;-)

My issue with Capitalism is that there is little free about the 'Free Market', as someone somewhere ALWAYS has to pay ... & this time it's Quite Explicitly - The 99% & throughout The World simultaneously.

I understand people defending The Principles of 'Free Market, Laissez Faire & Libertarian' notions of Capitalism (tho' Adam Smith himself warned about 'The Free Hand Of The Market!) ... BUT Modern High-Finance / Low (or NO!) Morals Finance Capitalism is a Busted Flush which has dragged literally hundreds of millions worldwide, down a slippery slope NOT of their own making.

The 99% SAY NO !! No ! & thrice no - to The Privatising of Profit, Gain & Opportunity and the Socialisation of Loss, Cost & Risk & to The Duplicity of Double-Entry Book-Keeping; The Tyranny of Accountants & THE DE$POTI$M OF BANK$TER$ !!!

radix malorum est cupiditas.

[-] 1 points by Daennera (765) from Griffith, IN 7 years ago

Well it would seem to me that what you are looking for is "fair"

I dare say you would get better personal results by playing the hand as it's dealt. I don't think ever in all of history has any advanced society ever reached "fair", or do I think they can.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

'D' : Yes, I and billions of others seek 'fair', but IF you do NOT think that 'fair' is compatible with 'advanced society' then :

a) What then would be so 'advanced' about such a society ? &

b) The Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany are societies where Fairness & Equality of Opportunity are held in the Highest Regard & are a matter of Public Policy. Even 'Anglophone' Democracies set store by & pay at least lip-service to such notions !

OWS is very much about 'fairness', The Corruption of Democracy by Corporations & The Debt-Bondage of Entire Countries & Whole Societies to Faceless Corporations who have acquired the legal status of Individuals. As such I thoroughly recommend The Film 'INSIDE JOB', for which see : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28189.htm . "It's a powerhouse of a documentary that will leave you both thunderstruck and boiling with rage."

TRADING OF 'MORTGAGE BACKED SECURITIES'; 'CREDIT DEFAULT SWAPS'; 'COLLATERALISED DEBT OBLIGATIONS' etc. IS A PONZI SCHEME 'DERIVED' FROM INTEREST GENERATING USURIOUS DEBT & IT IS AS UNSUSTAINABLE AS IT IS UNCONSCIONABLE.

Q.E.D. !!!

[-] 1 points by Joyce (375) 7 years ago

The following statement relates to any 'ism; when idyllic notions of a more pertinent system confront the realities of an embedded cultural norm (one which is readily accepted by the majority) harsh epiphanies force the few to retreat back into the printed recipe book that first stirred such titillating thoughts.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

@ 'J' : Thanx for your eloquent if not erudite, reactionary response.

Further re.'ISMS': how about BANKSTERISM, IMPERIALISM, MILITARISM & ... dare I say it : FASCISM ?

Any Thoughts ?!

[-] 1 points by Joyce (375) 7 years ago

Only if I may add atavism......

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

'J' : Of course you may, if that helps you to contemplate Banksterism let alone any other 'ism' !

An added corollary to the Animated Film re, 'KAPUTalism': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0 , might be http://www.internationalgramscisociety.org/ - dissemination optional !! Because ... Theory & Ideas Matter !

per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 1 points by Joyce (375) 7 years ago

Atavism is the social precept aligned to all the other 'isms' as it is an innate quality which resides in all of us.....we all have the capacity to become atavistic in order to achieve the outlook we seek.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

J : An individual's atavism aside, WE live in this thing called 'SOCIETY', where in the 'Free & Developed' West, we reputedly enjoy 'Democracy'. We maybe could have managed IF we were just happy Wage-Slaves ... but being burdened with Debt-Bondage from early adulthood (& before!) means that a system that enslaves the many for the advantage of a few is NOT sustainable.

Please try this article : "The War Against the Poor : Occupy Wall Street and the Politics of Financial Morality" ; http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29649.htm ... & contemplate Being A Revolutionary Against Usury !!!

multum in parvo.

[-] 1 points by Joyce (375) 7 years ago

.   "Acta  est fabula plaudite"!

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Hmmm & lol lady, tho' in the case of this particular sub-thread (threadette?) 'entre nous' ...

dux femina facti !! ;-)

[-] 0 points by Joyce (375) 7 years ago

By the way, in the most simplistic terms even you can understand. "Joyce" is an abbreviated nom de plume in an ode to Irish author James Joyce, a male literary genius, much like myself. Please, go employ your brand of verbal masturbation elsewhere...enjoy the silence. Feeling foolish yet?

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

How Rude !!! A Virtual-Cross Dresser & Actual-Dissembler, to boot !!

That's a new one on me & on a moment's reflection you'll realise that only your honour is besmirched here ... & by your own hand !

Back to 'The Sin of Onan' for you ... et encore ..

multum in parvo .

[-] 1 points by Joyce (375) 7 years ago

........yawn........I claimed check-mate a long while ago......while you were too busy with the assistance of google trying to keep up. It's nice to know that our community colleges are hard at work making people feel that small intellectual accolades, with the help of the Internet, foster true polemical dialogue. Long live passive knowledge! Ha!

[-] 1 points by aahpat (1407) 7 years ago

E Pluribus Unum.

The official socialist motto of the democratic Republic of the UNITED States of America. (;^>)

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

lol ! Maybe, that's more a reference & allusion to 'forging' a New Nation from disparate peoples, ALL from elsewhere & for a country bent on subjugating, 'homiciding' & usurping the Native Peoples.

Thus, we can clearly see that The U$A was (& still is) an EMPIRE from the Get Go !

Cave Pax Americana ...

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Thanx for the link 'ZM'. I've watched the first 'Ztgst' film & some of the 'Addendum', but was unaware of this one. I'll put an afternoon aside soon to watch it. ;-)

[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 7 years ago

We know that it is an antagonistic and derogatory term. And we have Europe as the example of degradation. Next question?

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

OK. 2nd Question : Are You an Idiot ?!

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 7 years ago

Definitely not; you want to match wits? Chose your weapon, ten paces, and no do-overs.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Please see my reply to the extremely inappropriately named 'smartguy' below.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 7 years ago

You're possessed of a flawed philosophy because it is one that favors the individual over the needs of society. It enables in too many ways that are far too detrimental to survival of the populace.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Oh !! Ok. I'll just change my entire world view then ! ;-)

Please may I draw your attention to "Commune Bonum est Summum Bonum = The Common Good is The Highest Good." in my reply to 'goft' below.

pax.

[-] -1 points by smartguy (180) 7 years ago

too long; didn't read

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Alas, so much for your moniker and the deep irony therein ...

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 7 years ago

lol. compulsory truth in handles! lol. Dumbguy should be forced to comply! lol.

You make some fine points, but you accidentally continue the ignorance. There is a difference between socialism and social services. we want social services, not socialism. Blurring that line is how the far right makes its hay. Accidentally continuing on with that blur isn't very useful.

In an era in which what is really needed is for everyone to open up some textbooks, assorted isms really are beside the point. While I understand and agree with the general ideas you express here, OWS is not interested in socialism or Marxism, and neither am I.

Corporate Oligarchy as we have it now IS socialist and Communist for the Elite Caste, which is WHY they project that at the left- they are dead guilty of it to start with.

Sociology also shares the prefix root word, has nothing to do with socialism, and has textbook after textbook of science centered solution.

its long past time to understand that all of the isms are the mental cage and only the science actually helps us escape that. Socialism is one more mental cage, as is marxism. We don't need to increase awareness of that situation with folks because ultimately we don't intend a socialist or communist direction. OWS is about creating genuine DEMOCRACY, that includes a free market system and social services.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

@ 'g' : Thanx for your thoughtful reply. I suspect that though we may have semantic & philosophical differences, 'Spiritually' we may well be coming from a similar place ...

Commune Bonum est Summum Bonum = The Common Good is The Highest Good.

Protection over you & yours and your home & hearth. ~{;-)

[-] -1 points by smartguy (180) 7 years ago

put your fists up and come at me bro

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Thanx for conforming to the 'Typical Violent, Red Neck, Anti-Intellect Yank' stereotype. Shame ...

[-] 2 points by BeholdenToHumanity (20) 7 years ago

"Anti-Intellect Yank stereotype." Nice one. The "I'm the guy" circus can be amusing at times, but not so much when they pretend they're not doing it. Visions of schoolkids saying "cool, I failed this test, I get to be the real thing!"

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago
[-] -2 points by stevo (314) 7 years ago

Blah blah blah. You write too much..but more importantly...you make no fucking sense.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Coming from you (as we've crossed swords before!), that is a compliment - so thanx, as having read some of your 'thoughts' - I'd have been worried if I did make sense to you !

[-] -2 points by stevo (314) 7 years ago

No really...you don;t make sense. You're one of those people who starts blathering..until everyone slowly backs away quietly.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

;-) & backing away quietly .... shhhh ... ! .. lol .

[-] -2 points by Perspective (-243) 7 years ago

WhoTF do you think you are. Let me say right off the bat that if you don't live in the USA,which it sounds like you don't,we could care less what you think. If you do then why do you stay if this country is so bad. Yeah you're going to go far holding up China and India as fine examples of socialism at it's best. China kills people like you or at the least puts them in prison for years and years. India has a caste system which is so far from socialism I don't quite understand your reference.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Your point re. China and censorship & repression has value, tho' I was trying to make a wider point re. Chinese society. Re. India, again 'prima facie', you have a point. India's age old caste system is an unconscionable anachronism & I fear that such a class system is unwittingly (or perhaps 'wittingly'!!) being embedded in Western 'Democracies'.

I was trying to give China & India as examples of what 'Socialism' has managed to achieve in these two countries, where famine was a societal feature, within living memory.

Thanx for your reply tho' 'P' ... & best wishes & good luck with Developing Your 'Perspective'.

pax ...

[-] 1 points by Perspective (-243) 7 years ago

I don't think you could call them socialist. Millions of Chinese were killed under Mao so I hardly think it's a good example for you to use. (I know you certainly didn't sway me but I'm very opinionated) In reality I don't think there has ever been a country that was completely socialist.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

@ 'P' : I strongly agree. + I was really only trying to hold China up as an example of some of Socialism's better possibilities & NOT as THE Exemplar ! ;-)

[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 7 years ago

Good discussion other than the name calling. Thank you for toning it down some. BTW do you know where the term redneck originated?

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

'P' : Thanx ... tho' I'm not sure that I called you any names ... ;-)

Re. 'Redneck', I'm guessing that it may have something to do with fair skinned manual workers doing back-bending physical work in the Outdoors. Cotton Picking or some other such agricultural work perhaps ?

pax vobiscum.

[-] 1 points by Perspective (-243) 7 years ago

Originally it referred to farmers in the south whose necks became sunburnt from working in the fields all day. The term has been co-opted many times over the years with perhaps the most famous meaning referring to union miners in the early 1900's.The United Mine Workers of America (UMW) and rival miners' unions appropriated both the term redneck and its literal manifestation, the red bandana, in order to build multiracial unions of white, black, and immigrant miners in the strike-ridden coalfields of northern and central Appalachia between 1912 and 1936. The origin of redneck to mean "a union man" or "a striker" remains uncertain, but according to linguist David W. Maurer, the former definition of the word probably dates at least to the 1910s, if not earlier. The use of redneck to designate "a union member" was especially popular during the 1920s and 1930s in the coal-producing regions of southern West Virginia, eastern Kentucky, and western Pennsylvania, where the word came to be specifically applied to a miner who belonged to a union.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

@ 'P' : Re. 'Redneck', I'm VERY grateful to you for the potted history lesson.

I stand corrected and won't be using the term so disparagingly ever again. Language & history demand accuracy & the history OF language, even more so.

'P', you give me the impression of a thoughtful person who'll appreciate a thoughtful critique of the predicament we the 99% are in. Thus, for an Excellent Animation & Critique by David Harvey, "Crisis of Capitalism: Is it time to look beyond Capitalism to a New Social Order?", please do try : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0 .

I'll be sharing your explanation of the term 'Redneck' with my chums & comrades here in the UK & hereby express my SOLIDARITY with Union Workers past & present in the US & everywhere.

Further, on the matter of SOLIDARITY & 'OWS', please see Slavoj Zizek @ OWS ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEUZNfOtPlE . Slavoj (pronounced SLAV-OI) is a leading intellectual with a huge following in Europe & has a strong sLOVEnian accent so good job that the crowd repeat his words via 'Mic Check' !

Finally 'P', I leave you with a relevant article (& an excellent web-site, for "News you won't find on CNN or Fox News") via : "The War Against the Poor : Occupy Wall Street and the Politics of Financial Morality" ; http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29649.htm ...

Peace & Prosperity to you & yours & Protection over your home & hearth.

pax et lux.

[-] 1 points by Perspective (-243) 7 years ago

Thank you for a good discussion and I will look at your links. I like to hear differing views and the basis of those views whether I agree with them or not. Hence my name "Perspective". It's a narrow minded person who never listens to a different perspective.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Thanx 'P' & I honour and appreciate your Open Mind & Empathetic Heart. Stay Well. x

[-] -2 points by jayp74 (195) 7 years ago

Why don't you just go to one of those countries? They seem to have everything you're looking for.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Question for a question :- Did you even read what was written ? + Regards to you & yours from ... The UK !