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Forum Post: In Mike Bloomberg's NYC white felons have a better shot at employment than Blacks with clean records

Posted 2 years ago on July 17, 2012, 2:56 p.m. EST by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY
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http://www.nyc.gov/html/cchr/pdf/race_report_web.pdf

Figure 2 shows the results from this second three-person team in which the white tester now presents evidence of a felony conviction. His test partners, black and Latino young men, present no criminal background. As we can see in this figure, the rate of positive responses for the white tester are substantially diminished relative to the white tester with no criminal background (from Figure 1). Nevertheless, this white applicant with a felony conviction appears to do just as well, if not better, than 6 his black counterpart with no criminal background. These results suggest that employers view minority job applicants as essentially equivalent to whites just out of prison. Despite the fact that these applicants presented equivalent credentials and applied for exactly the same jobs, race appears to overtake all else in determining employment opportunities. Calibrating the magnitude of the race effects to the effects of a felony conviction presents a disturbing picture. Blacks remain at the very end of the hiring queue, even in relation to (white) applicants who have just been released from prison.
The results here point to the striking persistence of race in the allocation of employment opportunities. Employers faced with large numbers of applicants and little time to evaluate them seem to view race as an adequate means by which to weed out undesirable applicants upon first review.
As just one example, the following case records this team’s experience applying for a position at a local auto dealership. Joe, the black tester, applied first and was informed at the outset that the only available positions were for those with direct auto sales experience.

When Josue, his Latino partner, applied, the lack of direct auto sales experience was less of a problem. Josue reports: “He asked me if I had any customer service experience and I said not really…. He then told me that 7 he wanted to get rid of a few bad apples who were not performing well. He asked me when I could start….” Josue was told to wait for a call back on Monday.
Keith, their white ex-felon test partner, was first given a stern lecture regarding his criminal background. “I have no problem with your conviction, it doesn’t bother me. But if I find out money is missing or you’re not clean or not showing up on time I have no problem ending the relationship.” Despite the employer’s concerns, and despite Keith having no more sales experience than his test partners, Keith was offered the job on the spot.
This example illustrates the ways in which race can trump even known criminality in certain cases. Indeed, far from racial considerations in employment being a thing of the past, we see that they are alive and well and actively shaping the opportunities available to members of different racial/ethnic group

It's just like the song says:

If ya white y'allright If ya brown stick aroun' but if ya black oh brother get back get back get back

http://www.alternet.org/story/35398/

Discrimination: The Root of the Black Job Crisis Nearly forty percent of young black males are unemployed. Not by choice; because employers refuse to hire them. April 24, 2006 |

LIKE THIS ARTICLE ? Join our mailing list: Sign up to stay up to date on the latest headlines via email.

The battle continues to rage between economists, politicians, immigrants' rights activists, and black anti-immigration activists over whether illegal immigrants are the major cause of double-digit joblessness among poor, unskilled young black males.

The battle lines are so tight that black anti-immigration activists have planned a march for jobs for American-born blacks on April 28 in Los Angeles. This is a direct counter to the planned mass action on May 1st by immigrants' rights groups.

According to Labor Department reports, nearly forty percent of young black males are unemployed. Despite the Bush administration's boast that its tax cut and economic policies has resulted in the creation of more than 100,000 new jobs, black unemployment still remains the highest of any group in America. Black male unemployment for the past decade has been nearly double that of white males.

But several years before the immigration combatants squared off, then-University of Wisconsin graduate researcher Devah Pager pointed the finger in another direction -- a direction that makes most employers squirm. That's the persistent and deep racial discrimination in the workplace. Pager found that black men without a criminal record are less likely to find a job than white men with criminal records

Pager's finger-point at discrimination as the main reason for the racial hiring disparity set off a howl of protest from employers, trade groups, and even a Nobel Prize winner. They lambasted her for faulty research. They said her sample was much too small, and the questions too vague. They pointed to the ocean of state and federal laws that ban racial discrimination.

But in 2005, Pager, now a sociologist at Princeton, duplicated her study. She surveyed nearly 1,500 private employers in New York City. She used teams of black and white testers, standardized resumes, and she followed up their visits with telephone interviews with employers. These are the standard methods researchers use to test racial discrimination.

The results were exactly the same as in her earlier study. Black men with no criminal records were no more likely to find work than white men with criminal records. That's true despite the fact that New York has some of the nation's toughest laws against job discrimination.

Dumping the blame for the chronic job crisis of young, poor black men on illegal immigration stokes the hysteria of immigration reform opponents, but it also lets employers off the hook for discrimination. And it's easy to see how that could happen. The mountain of federal and state anti discrimination laws, affirmative action programs, and successful employment discrimination lawsuits gives the public impression that job discrimination is a relic of a shameful, and bigoted racial past.

But that isn't the case, and Pager's study is hardly isolated proof of that. Countless research studies, the Urban League's annual State of Black America report, a 2005 Human Rights Watch report, and the numerous EEOC practice discrimination complaints over the past decade reveal that employers have devised endless dodges to evade anti-discrimination laws. That includes rejecting applicants by their names, areas of the city they live in, and claims of mistaken advertising (that the jobs advertised were filled).

In a comprehensive seven-month university study of the hiring practices of hundreds of Chicago-area employers (a few years before Pager's graduate study), many top company officials said they would not hire blacks. When asked to assess the work ethic of white, black and Latino employees by race, nearly forty percent of the employers ranked blacks dead last.

The employers routinely described blacks as "unskilled," "uneducated," "illiterate." "dishonest," "lacked initiative," "unmotivated," "involved with gangs and drugs," "did not understand work," "unstable," "lacked charm," "had no family values," and were "poor role models."

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[-] 2 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

Racial discrimination and stereotyping is alive and well in the U.S. from the boardrooms to the shop floors. Myriad laws prohibit them to no avail because proving them is no easy task. Most people in the U.S. have very little understanding of statistics and good luck to anyone who tries to "prove" anything with statistics.

We hold on to racial attributes as distinguishing features because they are easily discerned and remembered. I can remember the racial attributes of the harassers and muggers of me but not their faces or distinguishing personal attributes. In general, one gets harassed or mugged by the racially dominant group in the areas that one happens to be. Whites tended to have territorial and racial arrogance. Blacks were more violent and went for the money. The strangest case I had encountered was a non-white and non-black person mugging me in a wealthy white neighborhood and then letting me go free without any damage, probably because of how little I had with me.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

In NYC many whites come to live in areas that a few years ago they might have feared even to drive through. From seeing that I am guessing that the physical fear whites have had of black men has abated quite a bit and that indeed whites walk safely in neighborhoods where the majority are not white.

Whites as a group benefit from racial discrimination and tend to deny having any part in or even knowledge of it.

[-] 2 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

New York is not as territorial or segregated as in decades past when there were scary-looking urban zones with broken liquor bottles and auto-window glass on sidewalks and streets, and abandoned lots and burnt-out buildings. They looked almost as if they had been bombed in an urban war. It is good to say that it is no longer true. Maybe we did come a long way as a society after all. I was impressed by the transformation of Queens from a sleepy borough to a bustling mixed borough exhibiting great urban vitality.

Whites benefit from racial discrimination and tend to deny it but that behavior is desirable for a group having the upper hand but not willing to brazen it out in a so-called egalitarian or meritocratic society.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

What we are seeing is not a mixing so much as a pushing out of black people from places where they had predominated. NYC is said to be the second most segregated city in the US.

http://www.metro.us/newyork/local/article/818378--is-new-york-really-the-second-most-segregated-city-in-america

Salon yesterday came up with a fascinating report on the 10 most segregated urban areas in America. The results were shocking, especially for us denizens of the northeast who like to imagine we've gone beyond the racial tensions of the past century; numerous "educated," "liberal" cities ended up on the list, including New York, sitting all the way up there at number two. (For the curious, Milwaukee was first.) What? New York, second? Deliciously cosmopolitan, multicultural metropolis New York is more segregated than Los Angeles? Apparently. To start, we're talking whole metro areas here, which once again means you're allowed to blame everything bad on Bridge and Tunnel folks. That was a joke, but segregation in New York's suburbs is no laughing matter! As Salon reports: "Here in the home of limousine liberalism, the first part of the problem is to get anyone to stop talking about 'diversity' in the aggregate long enough to acknowledge that municipal and neighborhood segregation didn't just drop from the sky ... and isn't simply a function of economics or of self-selection," Craig Gurian, executive director of the Anti-Discrimination Center, says. "Rather [it] was created by explicitly discriminatory conduct on the part of both public and private actors over the course of decades." From MetLife refusing to rent Stuyvesant Town to blacks in the 1940s, to Yonkers fighting moves to bring low-income housing to the city's east side in the 1980s, to Westchester county's misrepresentation of its affordable-housing efforts, efforts to segregate New Yorkers by race and income have been going on for decades. However, there some good news for ashamed New Yorkers: Despite the number's we're still probably better than other cities. Although our neighborhoods are very segregated, the nature of the city means that New Yorkers spend a lot of time in neighborhoods that are not their own! At least, that's what NYU urban policy professor Ingrid Ellen Gould says: "What happens is that we're not making apples to apples comparisons. The neighborhoods in Atlanta and Houston are 10 times the size of neighborhoods in New York City physically. The census tracts are so much smaller, so you're likely to cross over a number of census tracts every day." So why not break out those cheers? "We're not #2! We're not #2!" (via Salon)

[-] 1 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

My interpretation about mixing may be incorrect. All I saw was that there were lots of different racial groups going about their businesses without much apparent hesitation or concern. Perhaps they are more segregated by their places of residence. It may not be so bad if people went to segregated places to eat, drink, be entertained, and sleep. Many urban dwellers seldom interact with their neighbors anyway. Workplace relationships may be much more important for promoting mutual tolerance and understanding among racial groups.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

But black people are being priced out and pushed out of communities that have been their places of living for decades and sometimes centuries. This might look like people of different races getting along just fine - because unlike the stereotypes, it is not common for whites to be attacked in these neighborhoods. Maybe it is unfortunate for the blacks that the upcoming generations of whites are not phobic of them as were their parents and grandparents. For this tolerance and even love, blacks are being shoved out of their communities.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

The really important question to be answered about neighborhood changes is whether the prior residents were shoved out or voluntarily moved out due to their realizing their American dreams in the suburbs. I do not really know the data for the blacks having been pushed out or not but I believe that the Jewish and Catholic communities were NOT shoved out. There are non-functional relics such as synagogues and churches around but the children of their former attendees have largely achieved their American dreams in the suburbs. Yes, gentrification may have been a problem for blacks because of the more difficult barrier of the perception of the color of their skins that blacks have to overcome to achieve the American dream. There is a consolation though about the U.S. It seems to have become more of an adherent of the "Money whitens" adage. For example, are Jewish people and Israelis classified as Asians or Whites? The simple answer is that the wealthier ones are Whites and the rest are Asians because Israel is a part of Asia.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

These days Blacks are more likely realizing the Kafkaesque dream. Moer homelessness, doubling up, sofa surfing. You might have heard or not but the American dream of a nice home in a nice area and kids off to college is becoming increasingly remote for more and more people. African Americans have the highest unemployment of all groupd identified on the census. For various reasons Jewish people more than other whites have trended back to the cities BTW New York especially.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

I know that the American dream had turned into a popped bubble for many, nightmares for some, and millstones on the necks of others. We really need to fix our system. I hope to develop people's abilities to think for themselves by giving them mostly facts (some rather painful), a bit of vaccinating facetious fictions (hopefully most got the intended ironies in them), and so on. It does not mean that we cannot dream a new sequence. In the old days, it would have been sad for Jewish people to trend back to New York but I do not think that it carries as much stigma about "not making it" anymore. Times changed and definitions of "success" had also changed.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Not saying the Jewish return to the urbs is about not making it. Jewish people are urban culturally more so than others are and this trend has been going on a long time. They like the Isle of Manhattan (and nearby environs). more than other white ethnics who left the city for good.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

May it be that Jewish people are more into the finance field and related opportunities that only a big city such as New York can provide? New York's having Bloomberg as mayor probably helps make it friendlier-looking, too. In the U.S., New York is the place to be for the finance field. It is "interesting" to say the least if one is looking for the cosmopolitan aspects. I almost felt that I could wear pajamas in New York and no one would have noticed and there was much that could cater to one's wants.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

"May it be that Jewish people are more into the finance field and related opportunities that only a big city such as New York can provide? " Nearby Connecticut has lots of finance stuff going on too. That's part of it probably. All sorts of cultural stuff in the city too. Jewish people pack Broadway, art galleries, museums. It's cool to be able to walk there or be an eight dollar taxi ride away from all that.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

I guess that the Jewish people in New York are the "blue whales" that had returned to the oceans, figuratively speaking.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28106) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I must take some issue with this comment as the fact of the matter is - wait for it - stop and consider for a moment - Black People and White People and Yellow People and Brown People and every imaginable People are being discriminated against - by the PTB.

Huh? One might say?

OH Yeah I would reply.

The poor are getting poorer = all of the poor.

All Poor people are getting shoved out of their homes that they may well have lived in for decades.

Guess what ?

More people of every race are being relocated to the poor section/category and are discovering this discrimination for themselves.

The working class is on the edge of poverty for the most part - the middle class is dwindling faster too and contributing to the poor class not moving upward like it used to be but sinking along with the rest.

The abuse/discrimination is being committed by TPTB and abetted by Government.

We have equality in this country - we are all becoming equally abused.

Minorities were at one time making great strides forward in this country - while the working class at one time could afford to have one adult working for pay and one adult working for the family and they had the means off of that single income to afford a house and a car and clothes and food and medicine and have a savings account.

Now though the PTB have reversed this trend of health and prosperity and have started pushing everyone - "EVERYONE" - down.

My rant - my observation - please pardon the venting.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Blacks have the highest incarceration, highest unemployment, most on food stamps and TANF. Has been this way since the Korean War when for various reasons for a few years blacks actually had average household income slightly higher than whites on average. It's been demonstrated in this forum that the anti discrimination in hiring laws are being ignored and not enforced. It hurts to see that OWS participants have such a problem seeing this. It's been demonstrated on this forum that many African Americans speak a different language and that this is never addressed in schools the way Spanish speaking and Vietnamese speaking language differences are. This is one large contributor to the "accomplishment gap" that society stubbornly and resolutely refuses to see.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28106) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

It is not only Black people who are being discriminated against.

Discrimination against anyone is wrong.

And there has been protests about discrimination. There will continue to be protests against discrimination.

Sorry if you are not aware of this fact.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

The thugs who beat King got off. Freed by a mainly white jury. Remember that?

Whites in droves not only go into but are moving into historically black neighborhoods. For one thing they feel safe there. And they are pricing the blacks out.

I have to repeat facts here:

Blacks have the highest incarceration, highest unemployment, most on food stamps and TANF. Has been this way since the Korean War when for various reasons for a few years blacks actually had average household income slightly higher than whites on average. It's been demonstrated in this forum that the anti discrimination in hiring laws are being ignored and not enforced. It hurts to see that OWS participants have such a problem seeing this. It's been demonstrated on this forum that many African Americans speak a different language and that this is never addressed in schools the way Spanish speaking and Vietnamese speaking language differences are. This is one large contributor to the "accomplishment gap" that society stubbornly and resolutely refuses to see.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28106) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Not the most on food stamps but more of a percentage of the total black population - there are actually more whites on food stamps in plain numbers not percentage of population.

Number of whites on food stamps/receiving aid is > the number of blacks.

Sorry but there are a whole lot of people in a bad way - black white red brown yellow etc etc etc - however you choose to look at it.

PERIOD.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Well yes, by percentage the most as a far greater proportion of blacks than whites are desperate enough to need and qualify for this minimal assistance.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28106) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

The idea is lets get past race and realize that we are all one race = Human.

There are all kinds of people in a bad way in this society and around the world lets address a healthy world for all.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

So sorry but what bullshit!

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28106) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

So sorry you think so. Sounds to me like you have some maturing to do.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Commenters should read the very heading of this post:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-mike-bloombergs-nyc-white-felons-have-a-better-/

Forum Post: In Mike Bloomberg's NYC white felons have a better shot at employment than Blacks with clean records

[-] 1 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 2 years ago

So, what does this prove? Why are people so stuck on stupid in this country? NOTHING HAS CHANGED! When are people going to get this through their thick skulls... If people of the alleged "minority" races woke up, faced reality to the fact that this country was created on these diversionary measures along with false history of its original people here.....then we might able to get somewhere.

Why a nation of people love to hold on to the labels, negative falsehood, beliefs, and marks that the oppressors and newcomers on this soil placed upon them is something so many of us will never, ever understand..

Who are these creatures that they look up to so much and why are they so important to you?

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Not sure I get your point. Racial discrimination in hiring is illegal in NYC and the law is not being enforced. That's what I'm talking about....

[-] 1 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 2 years ago

And what I am talking about is the fact that this is nothing new. Ever checked the hiring practices of the big Wall Street Conglomorates? How many Latinos, Asians. People of Color do you see there? Get Real!! Ever heard of Acxiom Corp., "the company you never heard of but who knows everything about you?" Do you know that they can double check your background, race, and family history and that their Board members are also on the boards of Bank of America, JP Morgan, Citigroup, you name it they can claim it, even in the political sector their people have clout... Who in the hell do you think is keeping track of all this race, felony, background information, census, and anything they can pay any company or organization they can get their hands on for data about you, your parents, your children, your family, your friends and your enemies? People.......this country is run by a small circle of money baggers. Now if you are not a part of it, then you should realize how little you understand about why this country must keep everyone at each others throats with bull shyt! You cannot understand the big picture when you are being disillusioned with their bull shyt!!! You all give these people their imaginary control over you.. that's all!

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

The thugs who beat King got off. Freed by a mainly white jury. Remember that?

Whites in droves not only go into but are moving into historically black neighborhoods. For one thing they feel safe there. And they are pricing the blacks out.

I have to repeat facts here:

Blacks have the highest incarceration, highest unemployment, most on food stamps and TANF. Has been this way since the Korean War when for various reasons for a few years blacks actually had average household income slightly higher than whites on average. It's been demonstrated in this forum that the anti discrimination in hiring laws are being ignored and not enforced. It hurts to see that OWS participants have such a problem seeing this. It's been demonstrated on this forum that many African Americans speak a different language and that this is never addressed in schools the way Spanish speaking and Vietnamese speaking language differences are. This is one large contributor to the "accomplishment gap" that society stubbornly and resolutely refuses to see.

[-] 1 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 2 years ago

I know, I know......yet, I do remember "thugs" who hung, burned, murdered 12 of my great grandfathers brothers and sisters (oral and written history) out of the south. Stole their property and left them with nothing. I remember how non-melanin plantation owners.....stole my great, great, great, great grandmother from her prominent family (here on these shores) destroyed the small city on the "black river" in the South and told everyone she came from Nigeria (also meaning Black river) and stripped away all her rights, citizenship, flag, and separated her from all her children when they got older. So...please don't preach to me....I have witnessed some things in this lifetime that will make your hair curl ....well...you know what I mean! We have a problem here in America......what are the alleged "blacks" true origins? My family always informed me about mine and I have a healthier outlook on this racist bigoted society. I also have a meaningful life that has been geared towards this particular goal.....help us to learn who we really are and get out from under this iron hand oppression of the pale skin nation.....It is as simple as that.....so easy, yet so hard. They are oppressing their own kind so what makes you think the freedom for other nationalities is gonna be a piece of cake?

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

The comment wasn't addressed to you as I recall and I don't know how it ended up as such. Could be I made an error. The struggle of Black people in this country has never been any piece of cake and I can't imagine it will be such. I do see it as a struggle for national liberation of a captive nation. It differs from other nations mainly in that it does not reside and hold majority numbers on a contiguous land mass. This makes it even harder but not less necessary or just.

[-] 1 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 2 years ago

Glad this can be discussed freely amongst those of us who know.

So, on that note, I respect your views.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Still and all-- racial discrimination in hiring is not legal in NYC and this law is not enforced.

[-] 1 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 2 years ago

Still and all-- racial discrimination in hiring is not legal in These United States of America and this law is not enforced....period!

So, once again.....what else is new?

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Actually and sadly this is news to many people even including people who post on this forum. Not a terrible idea to bring it up as it has devastating real world consequences and puts the lie to the notion that Black people need to "get over it" and "move on."

[-] 1 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 2 years ago

I never said that...."alleged" Black people cannot get over the fact that individuals such as yourself refuse to educate the nation to the truth. "Alleged" black people were put in bondage on these shores when the pales skin nations of Europe came here and found "alleged" Bllack (Asiatic) nations..... Not Indians, not Native Americans, but the original Asiatics who lived here long before they ever saw "white" people!
This is on record, this is WHY people duck and dodge this one particular issue and try to perpetrate this false racial superiority on these shores! Everyone loves to keep this discrimination issue as a cover up! It is pure blasphemy against the heritage of the nation(s) existing within a nation! This modern countries whole foundation is built on the premise that a nation of people have no rights here, when in reality, this country is being held as hostage and so are its people due to lack of education about the truth! The question is who are the real foreigners here? It is time to get beyond the Bull Shyt now....and build a better future on the foundation of TRUTH and get to the root of this whole fiasco!

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I was not accusing you of anything and if I came across that way I apologize. I agree with the concept that African Americans constitute a nation within a nation here in North America. This was what caused such uproar over Malcolm X and the Nation of Islam so many years ago-- hysteria! This also generated an hysteria when educators in Oakland California said that African Americans living in certain areas do not speak the same language as whites do and that their children deserve to be approached similarly to the approach to educating Mexican and Vietnamese kids- that there is a language issue! Of course different nationalities speak different languages and this could not be acknowledged by the PTB.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_Ebonics_controversy

[-] 2 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 2 years ago

I appreciate your references to the parts of this nations history that has been frowned upon as being evil, negative and giving thought to a belief that most people of color are unappreciative of being a citizen.

Most nations need no one to intercede for them when it comes to their rights and their ability to stand up for their own people and their rights as citizens.

Is this not what most conflicts are about across the globe...the rights and citizenship of nations of people and what is being done to them, not for them? The misplaced people of America are also having that conflict, yet they look at it as if it is only a foreign problem....Not true!

What constitutes a citizen? How does one go about claiming to be a citizen, and do states laws have the right to interfere with that right? Truly, It goes so deep here that it boggles the mind!

I know that the political agenda is not about the rights of the citizens, but the rights of the Money Baggers....so when one goes to vote, keep an open mind as to who is maintaining the rights of the people, and who is trying to take them away....Just food for thought... Thanks for your communication(s), gives me food for thought as well.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Are most of the dealships customers black, white or hispanic?

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

comprehensive seven-month university study of the hiring practices of hundreds of Chicago-area employers (a few years before Pager's graduate study), many top company officials said they would not hire blacks. When asked to assess the work ethic of white, black and Latino employees by race, nearly forty percent of the employers ranked blacks dead last.

The employers routinely described blacks as "unskilled," "uneducated," "illiterate." "dishonest," "lacked initiative," "unmotivated," "involved with gangs and drugs," "did not understand work," "unstable," "lacked charm," "had no family values," and were "poor role models."

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I was talking about that dealership

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Who the hell knows? The law in NYC and NYS is simple: No racial discrimination in hiring.BTW I've seen an African American car salesman working in predominately white area of Manhattan, so it can be done.

[-] 0 points by Misaki (893) 2 years ago

Job creation is the best way to prevent discrimination, because employers that discriminate will just end up with unfilled job openings and lost profits.

We the People petition to create jobs without more government spending or inflation at whitehouse.gov

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

That's pie in the sky wait forever, wait 'till no white lacks a job talk. The law is the law, or at least it oughtta be the law....

[-] 0 points by Misaki (893) 2 years ago

It isn't a new issue. The study you mention was in 2005; here's another one that reveals the same attitudes: http://articles.cnn.com/2009-01-07/health/racism.study_1_psychology-new-study-black-people

It doesn't even need to take very long. We have plenty of educated college students who are forced to work at Starbucks, taking jobs that high-school graduates (of any race) are just as qualified to do. One economist says that we could fix employment practically "overnight" just by working less: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/03/why-americans-should-work-less-way-germans-do

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

My point remains the same. Racial discrimination in hiring is against the law in New York.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28106) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Fraud is illegal too - but then - there are the apparently immune = wallstreet.

[-] 0 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

True but racial discrimination deserves to be talked about. By #Occupy.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28106) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I do believe that it does - I have had more then one conversation about it here on this forum and it has shown up as topic in the news here.

[-] 0 points by Misaki (893) 2 years ago

Are minorities supporting policies that would lead to full employment?

Or are they voting AGAINST full employment by not being willing to accept higher taxes and government spending?

We the People: http://wh.gov/cVNr

[-] 0 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Policies that support full employment? Where are they? NOTHING LIKE THAT IS ON THE HORIZON. In the meantime blacks are iced out of the jobs there are and that's against the law. Get it?

[-] 1 points by Misaki (893) 2 years ago

Where are they?

Endorse a Drama-Free Solution to High Unemployment | We the People: Your Voice in Our Government

Or you could be a sheep and not support it because none of the "important" people you know are supporting it.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

The fact is none of the leading candidates for any important office is pushing a full employment program. None. And fact is racial discrimination is rampant in NYC and also illegal. Just sayin'

[-] 0 points by Misaki (893) 2 years ago

Illegal unpaid overtime is also illegal

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28106) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Drop the 1st illegal and you are good to go.

[-] 0 points by Misaki (893) 2 years ago

Salaried workers can work unpaid overtime because they are in the 'exempt' occupational categories.

(While other people get a salary and can also get paid overtime: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/pa_police_ot_sarge_livin_large_RjaEvsSKBB7VhOrlH0E8dI)

[-] 1 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

From your URL: "the PA is bound under its collective-bargaining agreement to staff a certain number of supervisory posts with sergeants, a source explained. And with just 141 sergeants on the force — about 20 fewer than needed — the department is forced to offer OT.

As The Post has reported, the agency is reluctant to promote officers to sergeant to address the situation because it believes it’s cheaper to just pay the overtime rather than higher base salaries."

The Port Authority paid the OT because of collective bargaining agreement. It SAVES money by not paying the payroll taxes for the 20 fewer sergeants who may belong to a higher pay grade and may be entitled to other benefits. What are the real differences between wage slaves and salaried idiots? HUGE differences -- the corporations said so (to make more money by playing with labor laws and divide hoi polloi)! If you make a salary, you should be mighty proud of yourself not being a wage slave.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

Most corporations' tacit human-resource policy is to "promote" everyone not covered by a union contract into "exempt" (or supervisory or management) capacity. Why? So that everyone other than a union member can work unpaid overtime. Why not union members? Unions had figured out corporations' game long time ago and went for fair and legal pay instead. It takes a lot of time for young people fresh into the labor force to figure that out and some not-so-bright ones never did and never will.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

When it comes to the grave situation of the African American community it seems everyone would rather change the subject.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

I do not know how we can help the grave situation of the African American community although I recognize the need there. Decades ago, people used to say "If ONLY blacks gained political power, everything would be fine." Now, there is even a black (strictly speaking not quite that but close enough, right?) President in our highest office and things are still dire if not actually worse.

How do you propose that we remedy the problems in the African American community? Apparently political power did not remedy the situation much. I believe that the linchpin may be the black mommas. They were very respectable and skilled or competent in their occupations. Perhaps a culture of expecting their kids to do well and providing the necessary disciplines would help. What do you think?

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

""If ONLY blacks gained political power, everything would be fine." Now, there is even a black (strictly speaking not quite that but close enough, right?) President in our highest office and things are still dire if not actually worse."

1- Strictly speaking Obama is not African American in the sense of not being descended from US slaves and not sharing that historical sense.

2- Being in office is not the same as being in power. And why do you think Obama studiously avoids talking about the whole race issue? When Professor Gates got arrested for being uppity in his own house and Obama said the cops had done something :"stupid" almost the entire media came down on him like a ton of bricks and he ended up making nicey nice to that scumbag on international TV Obama he timidly answered a question that Trayvon looks like a boy who could be his own son. WOW! Again the roof came in on him. He's surely learned his lesson by now..

[-] 1 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

He does make the calls at the Executive Branch. I think that he had just wanted to look cool rather than thumping his popular mandates at the Democratic majority (the Republicans are mostly too far gone to reach) and twisting arms. He might have fallen into the trap of expecting blacks to be able to pick themselves up without much external help. He may not have internalized that he himself had been brought up by whites and went to the Ivy League for college and university so that was a vastly atypical experience for an African American. In a phrase, he was a "free-range" and not a "caged" African American.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Obama's history and personal experience are not those of African Americans. No doubt he has faced racist abuse (even as president) and that's reprehensible even if he is also reprehensible. I personally doubt that an African American who is pro real democrat and from the projects would ever get to where Obama is.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

That is indeed my point - that without his heritage from the white and elite (Ivy League) culture, he would have never made it to the Presidency. His overseas experience also influenced him a lot in teaching him how tempest-tost or small one could be so raging against the inevitable circumstance seems futile.

[-] 0 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

Another idea that may be more short-term is to form black-owned cooperatives near where blacks are congregated. The aim is to increase the velocity of money in the African American community and avoid leakages. That was how the consumer society had been built up so even if the community has been walled off partially by racial discrimination, economic activities can still increase.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

You see very few blacks working in the stores on 125th Street and environs. And downtown-- even fewer! There have been these "black capitalism" proposals for a long time. Magic Johnson has a big movie theater on 125th that is staffed largely by black people, but I imagine if there were black capital on a large scale hiring black people there suddenly would be a rediscovery of anti discrimination laws to force blacks out of those positions.

[-] 0 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

In those cases, you just need to play the "performance" card and assert that black employees help black-capitalized businesses meet their performance targets better than other kinds of employees because the customers are predominantly black. White businesses used that so black businesses could presumably do the same.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

No it would make more sense to play the boycott card with loud protests. That did work for a short while in some places.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

Loud protests arouse the non-blacks and build up their perception of blacks being whiners. If blacks take economic growth into their own hands "quietly", there will be very little uproar. Let us face it. Do people really know what can be said and done in a boardroom "quietly"? Do you think that people's livelihoods can be put on the line there with a casual remark? If it can be done "quietly" there, it can be done everywhere as long as all of the people involved can keep quiet. Good luck to anyone trying to prove anything with statistics! It did not work for blacks so it would probably not work for whites, either. The powers that be are happily clapping their hands to see the blacks bickering with the unfortunate whites. I say, just do it and no one needs to say anything because everyone including the non-whites has the exact same opportunity to do the same thing. The goal of preventing the leakage of capital from the black communities can be met by black-capitalized financial institutions recycling the capital back into black-owned businesses and communities. The discriminatory aspect of it will probably go unnoticed by the unfortunate whites due to the existing cultural divide. How many whites really know the innards of what goes on in predominantly black communities? One last important caveat, beware to keep all potential controversial things away from electronic media because information gains wings if it is put into electronic form and can fly into the hands of future authorities. Even "Masters of the Universe" tripped themselves up over that.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

The problem with loud protests is that they cannot be permanent but building up your own community's business base can become semi-permanent.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28106) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

So - what? You would like to see a developing trend of voluntary segregation?

Ummm.... I don't think that is how we get rid of the race issue....call me crazy - but I think the idea is to get everyone together.

Lets not go back in time to before Malcom X or MLK - things were not good back then - things have improved since then.

Lets keep striving to become one people as we really are = humanity.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

The idea is indeed to get everyone together but ONLY if it works. Otherwise, it will be better off segregating them. We have segregated bathrooms and segregated treatment of children as opposed to adults. Why? If there can be problems being together, segregation can alleviate the problems. An example is euro area, if Greece and other economically weaker countries were segregated from the rest, things would have turned out much better there. One does not put a young seedling into the hot sunlight until it has grown strong and capable of handling that. Furthermore, one needs to watch over it and water it till it can stand on its own.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28106) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Nurture is what all people need. Separation does not help to foster understanding or acceptance. Keeping some children's activity separate from adults is a different issue altogether as is sharing bathrooms men/women.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

Nurturing is indeed what all people need but that takes time, resources, and effort so all of them being limited means that we must prioritize and ration their expenditure. Striving to nurture all people IS a worthwhile goal but picking and choosing which people to nurture IS a realistic necessity. Now let us examine if the doctrine of "separate but equal" should be upheld. Men can fret about the women's having many more bathroom stalls and counter space with mirrors in their bathrooms. Conversely, if the bathrooms are of the same size, the women can fret about the men having urinals so they can get through faster so it is unfair for the women to form long lines outside their bathrooms and wait. If separate means not equal and we strive for equality, we must have unisex toilets. I say that we should strive for fairness which is a level of abstraction above equality. "Separate and fair" should be upheld so women's bathrooms can have more stalls and men's bathrooms can have urinals.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2877) 2 years ago

Separation may not help understanding or acceptance but switching roles does! The golden rule says that those who use the rod on others should sometimes feel the rod used on them. Also separation tends to restore temporary peace. Tell me how I can bring peace to the pork and beef eaters if they consider the others' food UNCLEAN or SACRILEGIOUS.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28106) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Don't need to tell me about exempt employee abuse. It happened to me once. After that never allowed it to happen again.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

"Black employers"? There are few of those. And like Jews and Italians did before, blacks have sought employment in the public sector where there is less discrimination and more rule of law. Well, that's under severe attack now and it's shrinking, the one area where blacks have half a fair chance to get in and move up.

[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

I'd agree with that - civil service provides greater equal opportunity - but it does not hire felons.

True there are less black employers, and less black interviewers, but it's not fair to say that whites are "prejudicial," as in more discriminatory, unless we also conduct the very same test of the black employers and the white felons.

Civil service is going down; municipalities can no longer afford more government. And if they do so, its at a cost to services and programs.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

This post, if you read it is about comparing the job finding success of white felons as opposed to blacks with equivalent qualifications minus the criminal record. The white felons do better! Ask yourself how it is that almost all commenters here including you cannot grasp that!????

[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

What I don't grasp is what the problem is... have you ever heard of reverse prejudice? It also exists; and I've lived it. The blacks themselves are guilty of the very same thing - they'd rather hire those similar, even if a felon, than hire those dissimilar. It's an evolutionary reality and it's not fair to cast the white in a more derogatory light, as if somehow more evil, if the very same exists in black society (and it definitely does). You know the NAACP itself is a really sad American statement in that it serves to actually emphasize and amplify difference as institutionalized.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

"What I don't grasp is what the problem is... " read this very slowly, maybe three times and there will be a quiz on it next week

This post, if you read it is about comparing the job finding success of white felons as opposed to blacks with equivalent qualifications minus the criminal record. The white felons do better! Ask yourself how it is that almost all commenters here including you cannot grasp that!????

[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

Because we a) know it's true and b) understand why. All are racists - the preference for those similar is evolutionary. 2/3s of all blacks in America have done jail time as social miscreants; more, social misbehavior is openly promoted in various forms - gangsta rap, movies, etc. Thieves, druggies, gangstas... only a criminal organization would hire them and even there they are very cautious. So we are what we eat... and we reap what we sow.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Glad you cleared that up. I wonder if you speak for DKA.

[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

No, I speak for America.

You know... there was a reason the English begged the enslavement of certain people to their Empire - it was because they were most capable. The African in America is no longer capable; what we see is a subculture that has allowed itself to be decimated by drugs and alcohol.

You know... the English took more than half of North America with just two words, "It's mine." And then to ensure that it remained theirs, they followed that statement with an English population; the intent to inhabit, secure, and retain this territory to the expansion of Empire for the purpose of personal gain. It's a pattern that had been in existence since the time of Henry the First; the difference, here, is that they failed to supply military support and defense; in America the English "settler" was forced to fend for himself while simultaneously the corporate Crown extracted its wealth of Atlantic resources. The castles constructed of invasion and occupation everywhere throughout Wales, Ireland, and Scotland, were here in North America, quite literally, but Castles in the Sky.

The eventual English domination of the sea allowed them an unlimited access to world resources; the slave was but a tool of extracting those resources at a time when the lives of the poor everywhere were completely meaningless, of no value to them whatsoever.

Settlements everywhere developed their own form of economic logic entirely dependent on the peculiar circumstance of access to resources within their grasp; in the early 1800s our ancestors sought to bring righteousness into reality; the righteous of the non-slavery-dependent North did not want to live the hypocrisy of our ceremonial public declaration - while "all men are created equal," many were yet enslaved. They dedicated their lives to right this wrong, this hypocrisy, a glaring "lie" in the face of their God; that's right, "abolitionism," meaning to wholly nullify through force of law, was born in our Churches; over a period of decades, it gained a voice promoted primarily, and heavily, by our women, because women are the nurturers - they lead, we follow, to their ultimate pleasure, and whether Gay or Straight it makes no difference, women RULE, and that's just the way it is... so drop your socks, and grab some rocks, boyz, it's off to war we go (again). Of course, in the North there were also economic concerns - the concerns of women aligned with the political power concerns of men, and "issue" grew "lungs," a voice heard yet again "'round the world."

A million deaths... families that suffered generational deprivation, the result of disability and loss in a world of few safety nets; a moral revolution of sorts, as a statement to light the world that none here shall be the oppressed, yet so completely followed by economic devastation and depression - what have we done; we are "undone."

And for what? The opportunity extended is not squandered, it's discarded, rejected - the child hates its parent. And America has grown weary of placating the spoiled; get a grip, grow up, utilize whatever means necessary, and step into the light of MEN where "Mutual Respect is The Way."

And so ends my speech of the day; what can I say? I am the Son of the the Preacher Man - Mister, Master, America. And as and so strange it seems - "oddly enough" - he likes Black People, yet a world where everything is so black and white is but a grimly gay that yields to gray, a quiet-riot, this "civil" war; and I don't know any more, but all of this is what I see (and more), so take heed; look, listen "up" and follow me because "up" is the way of righteousness, and one should not endeavor to be so Gott-damned evil; shall we ever meet on the common grounds? And how do you propose to do that when when you in childish defense spin blame to another? Stand UP! Only then shall you be counted; mutual respect is an eye level language.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

What pathetic bullshit. This forum is crawling with white racists.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28106) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

5440 question. Are you Black?

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Why? Would I have to be black to point out the things I've pointed out? What difference would it make, as we are all so wonderfully color blind, right?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28106) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Apparently not. I am just trying to understand - you.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-mike-bloombergs-nyc-white-felons-have-a-better-/#comment-785053

If you want to understand me try reading what I wrote and commenting on it.

[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

It's the truth. You want open discussion then let's start with being honest with each other instead of all these BS lies - in today's society blacks are every bit as prejudicial as whites, if not more so, and stereotypes as cultural perceptions ARE applicable.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago